Comments on: Druids, Paladins & Shamans, Oh My: Why Hybrid Classes Don’t Work

By: Edguev

Edguev — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:04:22 +0000

I think the main problem with your article is the concept that a hybrid can be at most .5 dps and .5 tank (or whichever combo you prefer). the fact is that hybrid classes tend to be more in the .7 to .8 range (when properly hybrid speced) compared to their pure counterparts. In the example you give in your original post this tends to mean the you have .7 of a tank .7 of a dps and .7 of a healer. This is absolutely correct for this particular example, but the fact is that not all fights fall within the limits of your example. Hybrids give you the ability to face multiple situations that would otherwise require a party change. Kara has a number of fights that require 2 tanks and others that require only 1, so what do you do with the redundant tank? good luck 9-manning Nightbane and Prince. So when you need to cover all the different scenarios out there you actually want hybrids because you will, in fact, have 1.4 dps, 1.4 tanks and 1.4 healers (for your 3 player example). This doesnt break down in end game, as the boss fights and trash cleanups within any raid will differ greatly. I have raided as elemental/resto prot/holy holy/shadow and I have been successful in all the roles. finishing at the top of the dps/healing charts is secondary to surviving an encounter.

By: Jeff

Jeff — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:10:58 +0000

Hum, so your game doesn’t allow you to play like you want to, maybe it is time to look at other games. Dungeons and Dragons Online maybe.

By: Payi

Payi — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:58:39 +0000

I have a shaman that I play, Rolled it when BC came out becuase I wanted more of the Hybrid type character to play. Personally in my experience, you can spec into one talent tree and still maintan an amount of flexibility. I can main heal any 5 man being specced DPS, just by switching my gear, and spend time off-healing on raids on a regular basis. granted by doing so, my damage dealing drops, but what is more important, my damage numbers, or the raid finishing the boss because I helped heal.

now I'll give you that any of the hybrid classes can compete with most of the base classes if played correctly. however they do still maintain some hybrid capabilities. however the player has to be able to play the character good enough for the character to be able to do it. In all cases it all boils down to the skill of the player, and their ability to remain flexible and play the class to its full potential.

By: Arienae

Arienae — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:57:57 +0000

Actually, that clarification of the power of hybrid classes was pointed at GIMBP and other people who seem to misunderstand the way these classes are balanced in end game content (”hybrids are good at nothing” opinions are still surprisingly commonplace).
“This proves my point that “true” hybrid classes don’t work – they need the option to specialise properly. And that’s what Blizzard has done. What I’m hoping is that other MMOs can avoid a similar fate as early WoW, and either forget about having true hybrids, or think very carefully about how they will implement them.”
I can agree with that. MMOs central feature is clearly splitting the roles of individual players in the raid, so that everyone does his assigned job and the team as a whole can complete the challenges thrown at them. There is no room for do-what-you-feel-like approach there and hence, no room for hybrids. Everyone performs one, clearly defined task and they’d better be damn good at doing it. Off-specs are at best an auxiliary feature that may occasionally prove useful. If MMO designers want more diversity than the simple tank-heal-dps pattern, they need to either specialize the classes deeper within these roles or create “support” classes that enhance the performance of “main” classes and are still at least as fun to play.

By: Logan Booker

Logan Booker — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:13:07 +0000

@Arienae: Firstly, thanks for the comment. I just wanted to point out that I never said a properly specced hybrid is no good! I was a main tank Druid for my guild when I played, and I was pretty damn effective.

I also agree that there's nothing wrong with the solution Blizzard came up with. It works. People a lot more happier than they were pre-TBC. In the end, that's what matters.

What I'm saying in the article is that trying to implement a jack-of-all-trades class in any MMO is close to impossible, if you want it to be a jack-of-all-trades for its entire gaming life. It has a novelty for a while, but once you hit end-game, people don't want novelty. They want effectiveness. Obviously, I'm talking about hardcore gamers, but that's where balance counts the most.

Before TBC, players of hybrid classes had no option but to spend points in their "strong" tree (usually healing) in order to be effective. This proves my point that "true" hybrid classes don't work - they need the option to specialise properly. And that's what Blizzard has done. What I'm hoping is that other MMOs can avoid a similar fate as early WoW, and either forget about having true hybrids, or think very carefully about how they will implement them.

By: Arienae

Arienae — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:09:22 +0000

"it makes for characters that are good at one thing and crappy at a couple others, but great at nothing, you're not even great at changing roles because of the way gear and talents work."
Wrong. I could agree with the article's author that in most cases the "hybrids" have to stop being hybrids in order to be viable (I only disagree that it is a problem or that it could have been done better without breaking the game) but your opinion that the specced hybrids are "great at nothing" indicates lack of experience. Blizzard balanced the hybrid classes very well using one of two ways:
A) By making them specialists in one particular area of their chosen role. Good examples here would include resto shaman and prot paladin. Resto shamans are second to none at group healing (only CoH priests can compete, but chain heals are often both more practical and more mana efficient) while remaining good overall healers. Prot paladins are capable of holding aggro on virtually indefinite number of mobs, while druids can reliably tank just 3-4, and warriors typically have problems producing any significant threat on more than 2 at one time. This makes them priceless as they can handle situations where other tanks are more or less helpless. They also remain very decent tanks in most other situations and can tank virtually any boss in the game (maybe except Kaz'rogal and Reliquary of Souls, but only these two come to my mind).
B) By giving them a powerful synergy with other classes. Examples of those would include balance druids and enhancement shamans. Druids can do very decent damage on their own (though probably lower than locks or mages) but they also give the tank 2% more mitigation, give all the physical dps 3% extra chance to hit and give all the spellcasters in their group 5% extra chance to crit. Enhancement shamans will usually fall slightly below the dps of well played rogues or warriors but the extra 10% attack power, windfury totems and totem-based stat boosts more than make up for it. As a result, it is usually more beneficial to add at least one of those characters to the raid than replace them with one more "pure" class such as a mage or a rogue, as the impact they have on the raid is way greater than their own capacity to deal damage. Their hybrid-based additional abilities (both the mentioned classes can off-heal if needed and druids can also res players in combat) are only the icing on the cake. Even without them, they are more than viable.

This makes the game way more interesting and complex than some new players think. It also means that non-pure classes are just as important and powerful as the pure ones. And if they are not quite "hybrids" anymore... Well, that's just the way the game works. More than that, this is the way PEOPLE who play work. The truth is, even if you introduced a class that would be just as good at both healing and dpsing as the existing heal/dps specs, that character would still be used at one of those roles at a time. High-end encounters are pretty complex and people need to know exactly what and where they are supposed to do. Telling someone to either heal or dps (or, gasp, tank!) depending on what they think they should do in a given situation is the easiest way to turn a boss fight into mayhem. Probably a short one too...

By: Logan Booker

Logan Booker — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:34:17 +0000

Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback, and I appreciate those who understand the article is about the fundamentals of MMO class design.

@Justin: Not only do I think some of your personal comments are uncalled for, it seems you didn't read the entire article. I'm not saying a fully-specced hybrid can't do the job it's specced for. Far from it. I'd reiterate my actual point, but it's probably best if you just read the article again!

By: Gimpb

Gimpb — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:33:37 +0000

I couldn't agree more on your points on how wow has tried to push most hybrids into pure roles, it makes for characters that are good at one thing and crappy at a couple others, but great at nothing, you're not even great at changing roles because of the way gear and talents work.

There are a couple hybrids that do work in wow though--shadow priests and feral druids. Ferals suck at pvp but in pve they can do a good job of either damage or tanking and that's quite valuable to raids, hence why they get used. Shadow priests do good damage while also giving mana regen.

Both of those cases work because those two specs are the ultimate in their niche; shadow priests are unparalleled at mana regeneration and feral druids are unparalleled as a tanking/dps role changer, despite having to suffer tanking stats on dps gear and vice versa.

The other hybrids can't be effective role changers and they don't have anything they're supreme at so they're stuck being compared 1:1 with pure classes, which turns out bad.

So, hybrids each need widely-desired things they can be the exceptional at, it doesn't have to be dps, tanking, or healing; it can be mana regeneration, role changing, crowd control, decreasing incoming damage against friendly targets, or whatever.

By: rosh

rosh — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:20:19 +0000

Some of you need to re-read this part. He is not saying you can not go deep in one tree and do a great job. What IS being said is you can not have 1/2 your points in Balanced and 1/2 in resto and be good at both to the point that the party does not need a Ture full time healer. I understand what is being said and agree. Haveing played a druidfor 2 years and being told " If you want to raid with us you must respec resto" all the time sucks. If I could be a TRUE Hybrid I would have no problem, just change my gear and i am good to go.

"The designers of World of Warcraft decided not to take the D&D way of balancing hybrid classes. Once they clicked on to the fact that "half and half" hybrids don't work, all classes that fit into the category were fundamentally changed. Now, with the correct spending of talent points, WoW hybrids can fill the roles of the primary classes they're based on, as long as they're willing to not be a hybrid."

By: Alex

Alex — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:00:55 +0000

The difference between a person who plays a shaman, specializing as a healer, and gearing his character as a healer, and the person who plays a shaman, specializing as a half-healer, half-damage (whether its spell or melee damage), is INTENT.

The first player INTENDS to be a pure healer. He WANTS to be a pure healer, thus he excels at it. The second player WANTS to be a hybrid, he GEARS up for being a hybrid, thus he doesn't excel in either role, but is able to quickly shift roles in combat from damage to healer, and vice versa, should the need arise.

This article might hold some weight in "Classic WoW" when paladins and shamans were terrible pure healers, BUT, in Burning Crusade, they have been fixed to the point where, each Healer-capable class (hybrid or not) has a niche, such as single target (tank) healing, or Area of Effect healing (the rest of the group). For example, Shamans and Priests excel at AoE healing, and Paladins and Druids are GREAT for single target healing.