Atkinson Argues His Case, Says He Doesn’t Trust Classification Board

Perhaps it could be said that the limits of the MA15 rating are stretched because of the lack of a R18 rating? Surely it is near sighted to suggest that it is better that games such as GTA IV et al find their way into the hands of a 15 year old rather than a (presumably) more mature 18 year old? One would hope that implimenting an R18 rating would keep objectionable material out of the hands of teenagers rather than open the floodgates to games promoting drug abuse, rape and the other nasties that Mr Atkinson opposes.
To be fair I am a New Zealander, and this debate does not affect me directly – I just find it interesting/amusing that our cousins over the ditch still treat games with such contempt.

I don’t see what the fuss is all about, international business that sell these games are a dime a dozen so if you want it just get it imported. Problem solved. Continuing to press this mater only brings it into further light and will end up seeing MORE games banned.

Mr Atkinson,

You acknowledge their’s a problem where the OFLC ‘stretch’ the guidelines so games can be classified as MA15. To your knowledge do they ‘stretch’ classification of games to be rated G instead PG? or about M instead of MA?

The reason they need to ‘stretch’ the guidelines is because you don’t give them any other choice. Many games undoubtedly would have been classified R18 had the option been available.

Yes having an R18 would mean less RC games, but it would also mean having less MA15 games. By there not being an R18 classification it is obvious you (and the government in general) view video games ‘for kids’. You might say otherwise but if the highest rating restriction available is for 15 year olds maybe the definition of a child has changed since I last checked.

You think you are protecting the Australian public – reality is though the longer you lobby against the R18 classification the longer you’re making ‘adult’ games available to minors.

Honestly, having an R18+ rating does make sense to keep GTA and a few other titles out of younger kids hands.

But pay it no mind, I imported Silent Hill Homecoming and will continue to import titles that get delayed because of retooling for MA15+.

Whacko Atco is always good for a laugh isn’t he? He complains about protesters wanting to remain anonymous, whilst declaring himself the spokesperson for several Attorney Generals (people paid for and answerable to we taxpayers) who themselves wish to remain anonymous. I suspect Atco may be one of the “vulnerable adults” he is so concerned about, it would explain why he is unfamiliar with the concept of irony.

Mr. Atkinson,

I can understand your concern with the current rating system. I implore that I see children playing video games way above their age limit. But it also implores me that minors can and do walk into video game stores and buy these games without legal restrictions. It also scares me that many games are slightly retooled in order to get a MA15+ game without modifying any of the actual content so per say. An overhaul of the classification system is in order, of which I fully agree, and the best way in order to do this is to bring multimedia entertainment in line with other forms of entertainment (film, pictures, etc) with the introduction of an R18+ rating, giving legal protections and prosecution to people who sell and hire these forms of games to minors, as well as reinforcing in the public that these forms of entertainment are only meant for Adults.
So as a concerned adult, I implore you to expand the classification system to include a R18+ category so multimedia which should not be shown to the underage public, either because its rehashed or because it technically fell into MA15+ guidelines, is kept away from our children.

Yours Truly

Jacob Kelly

P.S. Contact kotaku if you really want to contact me for my email address Mr. Atkinson, as I really do find some of your posts to the ‘gaming’ public to be quite demeaning and I would like to see what you could say without abusive tirades.

Mr Atkinson,

I respect your defense on this topic and that you have not backed down on a issue that you feel strongly about.

Around this time, last year. I e-mailed your offices directly with a message for you. I was asked for a name and mailing address so that you would be able to contact me directly with a answer. I am yet to receive a written response to the questions and views I shared.

That aside.

I have seen very little discussed in terms of how a R18+ classification would be enforced if it were instituted. Away from the discussion papers on bringing this issue to the table, Are there any plans or ideas as to stop children accessing games that are not appropriate? Is there a plan to stop parents allowing access to the games deemed “Adult only”

Thank you.

Alix J Wilson
The Scarecrow

Please e-mail me at thescarecrow@internode.on.net for my mailing address if you wish to respond. I do not want to place my personal details directly on the internet.

Dear Mr Atkinson,

Unlike you, I can discern the difference between real and make believe.

You are a man who believes in a make believe religion based around a make believe god, with no proof but a couple of 2000 year old books of questionable editing and authorship.

I, on the other hand, trust in science, and science has not yet been able to determine a causative link between videogames and violence. Every study done to date, without question, has failed to find a definitive link.

Here’s the thing: the studies that have been done, as awkwardly and haphazardly as they are – small sample sizes, questionable methods, and uncertain conclusions – hey wow, they sound a lot like the bible! – have the same overall conclusion as studies of ALL violent media;

There is NO causation between violent media and violent people.

If you have such evidence of a link to warrant your stance on videogames, I implore you to show your findings to the world! If your evidence is conclusive, I will back your stance on R18+ videogames to the day I die. Hell, I’ll even petition the government to refuse classification to R18+ books, magazines, and movies.

But I’m not just going to take your word on it. Show me proper science with proper evidence, and the case is repeatable and the logic scientifically sound and I’ll accept and even support your position.

But I can die in the knowledge that, like evidence of god, there won’t be any findings of this kind in my lifetime, or any lifetime.

The human mind is so complex that there is no possible way media can have such a negative impact on human beings, otherwise we’d all be slaughtering each other in the streets the moment Josephine Baker appeared on film, Superman appeared in comics, or Elvis shook his hips on Ed Sullivan.

Also, I would please ask you to refrain from calling me and other videogamers sick and twisted in the mind, and implying we could be murders, thieves, and rapists, as you have done in many of your responses to the push for R18+ for videogames.

I mean, after all, you’ve nearly been done for defamation twice already, and as they say, third time’s the charm…

First, it was “I’m doing it for the children”, now it’s “okay but I don’t trust the ratings board”?
The MA15+ rating is stretched to its limits only because of the lack of a R18+ rating. Poor effort, 3/10.

It’s becoming clear that Mr Atkinson will continue to produce one weak argument after another in an effort to delay the release of the discussion paper for as long as possible.

It says something about our political system when one man can halt the political and social progress of a nation, and not be accountable for his actions. No parliamentary review, no administrative review. This is not democracy.

“There are many, many games that are strategic and challenging without requiring extreme violence or sexual defilement.”
This actually reveals a lot about your understanding of games and gamers. It’s not something I’m surprised about–you didn’t grow up with games. You are potentially going to be the last generation who thinks like you do about games and after that R18 classification will be introduced. It’s simply unfortunate we have to wait for your generation to be replaced.

“It confuses and baffles me why I am being harangued, threatened and abused by people who want the right to play a handful of games.”
You can’t expect people to appreciate you telling them what they can and cannot play. And you have to remember that this is the Internet–your opinions are going to attract people who would otherwise never dare state threats publicly.

“I watch my own children play violent and aggressive games that are legally available – legally available because they have been classified as MA15+.”
So I assume they are over the age of 15? What if the same games were rated R18, would have you let them buy them?

“As my youngest boy blew away one humanoid after another with an automatic rifle recently, I ribbed him “Do you think any of these have aunties or cousins?”
This is one of the difference between your generation and the gaming generation. We know that it’s a 3D model described with 1′s and 0′s to look human. We’re not desensitised to violence in games, because we know it’s not real in the first place. I actually have a lot harder time watching violence in movies because I know they ARE real people, not computer code. The answer to your question is “No”–they don’t have families, they’re not real.

“tell that to the family of the Bangkok cabbie murdered last year in a literal re-enactment of a scene from Grand Theft Auto.”
A person in your position should know better to use incidents like this as ammo. I could find plenty incidents from decades ago that would suggest Coyboy movies should have been banned. I can also find incidents that suggest Superman movies should have been banned due to kids jumping off their house roofs. Gaming is now a part of our culture, there are going to be links, just like movies and books were, and still are, linked to some violent crimes.

“I worry about parents not taking an active role in regulating their children’s game playing.”
I worry that because R18 games don’t exists that parents will think all games, including MA15+ games, are harmless fun for kids (“how bad could an MA15 game be?”). I think when parents start seeing R18 games they’ll get an appreciation for what is appropriate, just like they do (or should) with movies. Also, most young families I know have been exposed to games for years before having kids. They know what the content of these games are, just like you knew what the contents of movies could be like before you were a parent.

“To my mind, a child being able to watch ultra-violence and sexual defilement in a movie is damaging to the child, but a child participating in ultra-violence or sexual defilement, or both, in a computer game is worse.”
I’m quoting this so it’s clear I didn’t miss the point. There are studies both for and against what you think, so it’s not worth debating here. But you’ve used the arguement that it’s only 3 games a year, and so will I–it’s only 3 games a year. Children will most likely be getting their “simulated” violence from lower classified games.

“I am concerned about the level of violence in society and the widespread acceptance of simulated violence as a form of entertainment.”
So, (ignoring the shallow threats from trolls here) do you believe gamers are more dangerous than non-gamers? Is your son a threat to society because you allowed him to play MA games?

Dear, Mr Atkinson,

I respectfully thank you for taking the time to actually respond to actual debate in an intellectual manner. It certainly is a refreshing change after your previous couple of posts which completely avoided the issue. In the interests of hopefully keeping the discussion going, I would like to respond to a few of your comments.

Firstly, as an introduction to an argument, the line “That might be more useful than bagging me anonymously on blogs and by anonymous emails, but use up your time this way if it makes you feel better.” is quite dismissive of the readers here.

Is Atko the only opponent?

To your first actual point – Terry was referring to the fact that no other attorney general has publicly stated that he opposes an R18+ rating. In your responses, you claim that there are others, yet you refuse to name them, which means we have to take your word for it – a little hypocritical after accusing other people of hearsay. I think you will also find that not once did Terry actually say that not one supported you, he simply said not one publicly supported you, which makes your ensuing personal attack on Terry somewhat misplaced.

Once again, in the next two paragraphs, I take string issue with your callous and dismissive tone. “being an R18+ gamer and blogger means never having to say you are sorry.” “at least they have the courage of their convictions.” “Until R18+ bloggers like Terry are prepared to conduct themselves in a civil and open manner and check their facts,” to name a few. Wow, just wow. Comparing a person who wishes for an R18+ rating to outlaw motorcycle gangs? And you are complaining about the abusive emails you get! What about the abusive posts we get from you that are no less abhorrent!! Also, can you please tell me what part of Terry’s response was not civil and open? It was certainly more civil than the slander you used in these paragraphs. And finally, mentioning “checking the facts” is more than a little rich after mentioning a Japanese only game about raping in the R18+ argument, despite the fact it would never receive an R18+ rating here, or any where else.

Age of Gamers

I have to agree with you pretty much there, although Terry was simply illustrating a point, but as that is not related to R18+ classification, I will not continue.

Number of Games Affected

I personally, have never once wanted to play a game banned in Australia, yet I still wish for an R18+ rating. If anything, I believe content like that in Grand Theft Auto 4 should be R18+ – it is simply not suitable for kids. In most other countries, it is R18+. Here, it is only MA15+. I am not arguing for a right to play extremely violent games – indeed, as you yourself mentioned, there are next to no games being banned, which means all the violent games are rated MA15+ – I am arguing for a system that more accurately rates games based on their content, which cannot work without an R18+ rating. So please don’t imply that I am a psychopathic monster who enjoys raping virtual people because I support an R18+ rating.

Furthermore, your continued reference to “bash, torture, slay, slaughter, rape and take drugs.” hurt your argument. They are all (apart from rape) MA15+ material! Perhaps if there was an R18+, this kind of material would be rated R18+. What is better, a higher, adults only rating with restricted sales, greater acknowledgment of the type of material it contains, and higher level of age restriction on console being allowed? I must admit, I find you position completely baffling – it seems terribly counter productive.

Finally, you state: “I am concerned about the state of mind of an individual who thinks he should have the right to do this in a computer game” I again, find this a bit over the top. Have you never watched a movie or tv show that features bashing, torture, rape, murder or drugs? I am pretty sure you have. Why then is having the same content on a video game so abhorrent to you? This more means that you don’t appreciate the medium as an art form (which is entirely understandable), rather than everyone who likes these type of games being a crazed lunatic.

Children & vulnerable adults

Again, your points seem somewhat counter-intuitive. As you said, there are precious few games actually banned, which means the main affect of an R18+ rating would be certain MA15+ games can be given a higher rating, consistent with their ratings overseas. How in any way does this increase the exposure to children and vulnerable adults? This is still ignoring the fact that there are myriads of online retailers based overseas that you can freely purchase these games from, even if they are banned here – anybody who wants to get hold of them can get hold of them. You make reference to your children playing games in the early hours in the morning. Ignoring the dismissive “machine noises” comment, and that we are talking about R18+ rating, not video game addiction, how come they were playing games so early in the morning? Doesn’t this refer more to parenting than games? And how exactly is this a reason of no R18+ rating? Particularly as you say they are MA15+ games (I am really hoping the child you are referring too is over 15…)

Your second paragraph again details exactly why there should be an R18+ category! Yes, the OFLC does bend to allow games to be released. The is why games like GTA4 are released here is MA15+, yet overseas it is R18+. Isn’t it better to have this higher rating to allow parents to make a more informed decision, or are you pleased that 15 years olds in this country are deemed old enough to play GTA4, when overseas they are not? Sure. Besides, the OFLC’s guidelines are under the control of the attorney generals – if they let games through with an R18+ rating that shouldn’t be, that can be fixed. Even if they stretch R18+, isn’t it better than them stretching MA15+ so that almost nothing is banned (as again, you admitted)?

Once more, you assert “If those games fit into MA15+ , they will still be classified under MA15+” which is a little odd, as previously you just mentioned you don’t trust the OFLC because they will try to allow as much as possible in the highest category to appease the industry. Right. And it also completely ignores the fact the games such as GTA4 are rated R18+ overseas. TO me, this means that an R18+ rating will help! Parents see A LOT of difference between an MA15+ rating and an R18+ rating. You also state: “It’s not hard for parents to decide whether the game is appropriate or not.” If it isn’t that hard, then why don’t you want an R18+ rating, I am confused? You just said that parents can decide quite easily if the games they are playing are decent or not.

You again state that participating in a violent video game is worse than watching a movie. So why has no study shown this to be true? And how does it make violence an everyday part of their lives, as you suggest? You seem to be happy ignoring the plethora of scientific studies conducted in the area to keep your view point. And what has this got to do with an R18+ rating? You mention the murder of a bankock cabbie. Horrific, yes. Helping your point, no. For starters, he was enacting GTA4, as previously mentioned, a game with an MA15+ rating here, but an R18+ rating overseas. TO me that sounds like the perfect argument to allow it to be given a higher rating! But I digress, it is not the perfect argument. This murder is not the only one conducted GTA style, and nor does anyone deny that. What is denied is the link between video games and violent behavior, which is what Terry was saying. In the Bankock murder, while the murderer was enacting GTA4, did playing the game cause him to transform from a normal, lawful person to a crazy psychopath? No, of course not. Just because he played the murder out GTA style, doesn’t mean that he was not already deranged, that he was not going to kill anyway. On your reasoning, maybe we should ban religion, I seem to recall once religious members of the KKK in America tied a living black man to the back of a truck and dragged him until his body was shredded. Maybe we should ban alcohol, as I seem to remember many instances of alcohol fueled murders. I am not seriously suggesting this, but the point I am making is that some deranged people do some deranged acts, sometimes in the name of something quite innocent. Please don’t confuse this.

You then go on to discredit a poll because it is industry funded. It was conducted by academics at a leading university. Are you saying they are corrupt? By the same reasoning, are you saying that government polls are all inaccurate because they are funded by the government? You state “The reason Terry is so angry at me is that I have belled the cat – told the public what is in these games.” How was Terry angry, he was simply responding to several inaccuracies in your letter? You haven’t told the public accurately what is in these games at all. As Terry mentioned, and you conveniently ignored, you mentioned a raping game that would never receive a classification in any western country. That is misleading, and a reason to get annoyed. I also completely question your assertion that “it is human nature for people to tell a push-pollster they should be able to do something when the law says they can’t.” Since when? That’s just made up nonsense. I also find it interesting how you dismiss actual surveys and studies into the field, instead believing that your uneducated viewpoint is more accurate! You again sensationalize issues in your defence of the censorship argument. This is about heavy handed censorship – no one is suggesting all forms of censorship be removed, and raising an emotional issue like child pornography is obviously an attempt to deflect away from the real point.

In your final paragraph, you link violence in society to violence in video games. Again, there is no evidence for this! You can’t just simply make stuff up that you personally believe to be true and state is a fact!

Dear Mr. Atkinson

I, as mother of two young children completely understand your concerns about ultra-violent videogames, however there are many issue to be discussed and many suggestions to be made about this topic.

My two children, age 8 and 10 love playing their videogames. Of cause I would never let them play anything above a PG rating.

And yes, I do believe there are some very susceptible people in society who may be influenced by the images and ideas displayed in certain videogames. But these few people do not account for the majority of videogame players.

Most people, like myself who play videogames have families, friends, children, a steady-job and we pay our taxes. The reason we would like to have an R-18+ on videogames is to insure that no game developers’ and manufactures are somehow sneaking-in mature content into a lower rating.

Many gamers in Australia and fans of digital entertainment including DVDs, TV and Movies are well aware that the OFLC is not foolproof. Many times have I seem Movies and Television shows grossly under-rated by the board. And many things completely over-rated simply because the person who was reviewing the material did not have the cognitive skills, experience or maturity needed to understand the situation of the storyline.

It is true – if an R-18+ rating was introduced it may be abused and stretched to it’s limits, however this is not a certainly.

My belief, as a parent and as a gamers is that an R-18+ Rating should be introduced, not because older gamers want to play more and more violent videogames but because we could make better informed decisions about our software purchases. There are many parents who are gamers, and many parents who are not, and it is the parents who are not gamers who are most at risk of buying inappropriately rated games.

As mentioned earlier, the classification of MA-15+ is being stretched and skewed until the line is blurred. The reason I am concerned that there is no R-18+ rating is that once the MA-15+ rating has been taken to it’s breaking point, it will most likely be revoked from videogames and the highest rating would then be M-15+ and that rating would be abused and then revoked and we would move down to PG and just keep going backwards until the only rating left for videogames is a G rating.

One might say to me, you’re a parent – wouldn’t you like all videogames to G rated to you wouldn’t have to worry about what your kids are playing? Yes, that’s true, but that’s not the point. I am the parent and the appropriate adult – it is my job to take care of my children and only buy them games that I think are appropriate. It is not the job of the ratings board or anyone else to be my children’s caretaker.

And it is not the job of the rating board to dictate to parents and consumers what we can and cannot watch. But this is not the argument I am making. My concerns is when that an authority tries to ban something they deem as inappropriate or far more damaging to the community that it will force said damaging content to abuse the current system structure creating a far more damaging outcome and those who were meant to be protected by the system structure will be exposed to the damaging content instead of being shielded from it because said damaging content could not be classified into an appropriate classification were the impact of the content was clearly defined because the appropriate classification did not exist.

A system for purchase of an R-18+ rated game is quite simple. All games with any R-18+ rating would not be displayed on the shelves of the department stores or videogame software outlets. The R rated games would be keep under the counter out of plan sight or keep in the stock room at the back of the store. Since the gamers purchasing the software are 18 or over they would know if the game is available for sale and they would simply ask the clerk at the counter to go and fetch the game they want.

Actually, this is quite an old system of selling high rated games. This system has long been in use in the American department store chain WAL-MART and long ago in the 1980′s.

Also, unlike many videogame consoles of the past, modern game videogame console have a parental locking system that requires a password to be entered in order for a particular game to work. This system is quite good, my 10 year old tried to play one my MA-15+ games without my knowledge and but the system would not run the game without my password. My child gave up in the end and was not exposed to any unwanted content.

Anthiny said:
Dominic Lim said:
“It says something about our political system when one
man can halt the political and social progress of a
nation… This is not democracy.”

Yes it is, he is the elected offical. The Australian public has the right every few years to vote him out.
——————————————–

Dominic Lim is right.. he just doesn’t know it..
We do not live in a Democracy… we live in a Representative Democracy. There is a difference between the 2. Look up the definitions if you need to.