Yoichi Wada: Japanese Industry Is “Old People Doing Same Old Job”

@Archaotic: I'm not saying Wada's a saint, but Sakaguchi *already* drove the company off a cliff. That's why he's not running the company anymore.

Maybe get some game designers who've played some Western games on their roster. Maybe then we'd see the end of save points and hour-long intros before the player gets the fun part.

AncientUnknown1

"a reluctance to take risks and an over-reliance on old franchises"

So how's Halo 4 coming along anyway?

@Silveth: Damn dude, you just said verything i feel about this. Wada is an ass. He needs to stop thinkiing he can be western and just return square to how they used to be.

I remember when he spouted off about how this gen he was gonna support everything equally and shit but he just gave the finer to Sony and the PS3 and thought he could pull the same success he had with the PS2 off witht he 360, newsflash asshole, the 360 fanbase is not the same as the PS2.

They need to make a few quality RPGs a year and the like and not this JRPG churn they are on making garbage like IU and LR.

Down with Ultraman!! We need more PowerPuffGirls! New game rocks!

ahmeng

I get what hes saying. You rarely see new IPs or companies from japan trying something new, wheras in the western world we've got new companies trying innovation, like Media Molecule or Dice (with Mirror's Edge)
I can understand the best selling games they're are only established IP but thats kind of true all over the world

@koldkalamity:

I only caught up today about imperial hot wada

@zanzibarlegend:

If they made FFXIII on UE3 instead of making their own engine, thus making it glitchy and full of loadings and reduced the play-time to 20 hours then I am sure we would have already gotten our FFXIII.

Problem is I dont want an FFXIII like that.

Fainaru

@zanzibarlegend: We've seen everyother final fantasy been remade because they've been doing them in number. Thats why the remakes of V and VI are next

@Buttah: The Delicious One: Not all old guys are Hideo Kojima or superstar developers. Just because they're old and experienced doesn't necessarily mean anything.

There's nothing wrong with ensuring your company and industry has regular infusions of young talent.

negitoro

@Archaotic: I got a soft spot for those games, i just really enjoy the battle system and the like. I don't know really, i like me some multiplayer but just the general focus of this gen on it has left me wanting in the singleplayer department which is something that JP devs usually give me my fix of.

@TheHeartless: Yeah, remember great games? I miss those. I'm not quite sure where the story in XII was, but I couldn't find it. Epic seems to understand how ridiculous it would be if they started making racing simulators, or music games, yet SquareEnix bought Eidos for some bizarre reason.

*sigh*

@Archaotic: Wada is turning into a damn crybaby. why are we still waiting on FF13? we have we seen every other FF other than 7 get a faithful remake? why no plans for US Demo for FF13?, ya know.... the faithful fans that have made them money for so many years?

o great, cultural differences in business model has left us hanging out to dry, so to speak.

i tell ya, i miss Squaresoft. you never read or heard about whiny rants. SS just pumped out the RPG goodness, in a timely manner.

@Archaotic: Seriously, I just don't know what the hell it is that they are doing with FFXIII, but it better be over 200 hours long for such a dev cycle.

And what the fuck, Wada? Seriously man, you're what's ruining your own company. You tried to go "Western" with Last Remnant and used the Unreal Engine, and totally messed that game up. Remember how quick X came out after IX, and then XI after that? It's been a slow roll downhill ever since the merger with Enix, and not saying Enix is a bad company, it's just that obviously you now are having trouble with deadlines and identity.

Lest I need to mention the obvious cashcow staring you in the face that is a FFVII remake. I don't care if you think it's a good idea or not, it would make money. You've been neglecting your core audience in Japan by stiffing the PS3 and now you bought Eidos to do what, Wada? A platformer/shooter? Let me know how that works out for you.

There's a reason why Nobuo and Sagakuchi are gone, and there's also a reason why a cellist doesn't wake up one day and decide to be a professional bowler. If you wanted to run an American company, than you should've moved to America.

/rant

@Timothy Saskiewicz: I'm pretty sure old guys or new guys, either one could make games that work.

It's not like Japanese devs with their older crews never make games with bugs in them.

negitoro

@Timothy Saskiewicz:

And yet Gears of War, a new IP from a western "newcomer" has outsold MGS4 despite launching on a smaller userbase.

Wada knows what he is talking about.

Fainaru

@Archaotic: Your still talking about take really basic polygons and textures that they had then and the insane graphics and detail we have today and expecting the same development time. Its crazy to think that. There's a reason why Western games usually take at most 10 hours to complete.

@Ladi: Not to be a prick but Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within wasn't exactly a successful film. They've been trying to cater to the West but really, they don't seem to be as good at it as Capcom. Yes, they have a lot of power behind their brand and that's a good thing to have, but innovation is something they've been lacking lately

Deathbearer

@Timothy Saskiewicz:
The moral of this story is that Yoichi Wada is an idiot.

@Archaotic:

That really makes no sense to blame Wada for that. He has nothing to do with the actual games development. And he is a president of Square since 2000. FFIX - 2000, FFX - 2001 , FFXI - 2002 , FFX-2 - 2003.

Wada became the president when Square was close to a bankruptcy. Now they are the largest japanese 3rd party publisher and are able to make take-over bids despite the economic crisis. He is a good president and his handheld strategy was extremely successfull so far.

Fainaru

@Akua:
Final Fantasy VII was a massive paradigm shift for Square, perhaps even moreso than XIII is, and it didn't take six years to release. It took three at least, and it only took one year for it to come out after it was announced.

@Archaotic: I'm sure it has nothing to do with the huge jump in graphics and expectations of the same length in play time.

cliffy b is one of those young guys... and gears of war 1 and 2 are some of the most glitchy games on the market today... kojima is an old guy and sold 4.5 million copies of a game exclusive to the ps3... im not seeing anything wrong with old guys making games that WORK compared to new guy making good game with tons of glitchs which makes the game unplayable... also squenix im pretty sure any ps game you have made has outsold everything you put exclusive on the 360 combined... please give me a new musashi game pretty please with a cherry on top =)

Timothy Saskiewicz

like those people the fans of final fantasy will die out.

lawl at "Imperial Hawt". simply lol.

@DukeOfPwn:
Their ridiculous dev cycle is relatively new. Remember the PS1 and early PS2 gens? Their FF games had a year, maybe two-year turnaround, as opposed to taking FIVE YEARS EACH on FFXII and FFXIII. Ever since Wada took over, FF games have taken longer and longer and longer to make.

I can't help but blame him.

@Archaotic: At the same time, if they stay themselves, with the ridiculous time it takes to make one game, I'm afraid they'll dig themselves into a hole they can't crawl out of.

DukeOfPwn

@Deathbearer: It seems he's already got a plan: "I'm the chairman of the industry association in Japan, CESA, and in that role I intend to do two things. One is to promote more international exchange, and then to promote exchange with different industries - such as TV and film."

The S-E brand has a lot of weight behind it other than the Final Fantasy franchise however, so he needn't be unduly concerned, especially for the forseeable future. After all, the FF brand is powerful enough that a demo of their new game, new version of an FF movie and an FF themed PS3 were able to give the console's sales a considerable boost.

@Pyrefly:
Star Ocean a gem? Maybe if you're using it as an example of "games worthy of Mystery Science Theater 3000 treatment"...

I have noticed this is a bit of a trend where the Japaneses developers praise the US makers for hiring young innovative developers.

Lincolnsbeard33

As much as the JP market is kinda stagnant and old, the day JP devs bow out to a western market completely i will likely quit gaming. The only redeeming factor this gen has for me is when you get a JRPG gem like Vesperia, Star Ocean and the like.

It sounds like he's believes Japan is no longer a vital market in gaming, which may be true but it's not like S-E's recent ventures into western gaming have gone well. As far as the same "old" people, what's wrong with that? If I'm trying to develop a multimillion dollar game project, should I get some who barely knows what they are doing or veterans of their craft who I know can get the job done. In the end, I'd take anything from "old guys" like Hideo Kojima or Tetsuya Nomura over a game made by some guy just graduating from Westwood College Online.

+ Watch video

Vital Market, indeed.

Buttah: The Delicious One

It's sad. I really like Square Enix...but I hate Yoichi Wada. The man is a virus. He's steering the company off a cliff, and without someone like Sakaguchi to keep him in line it's only going to get worse.

Wada. Stop trying to copycat the West. Your company sucks at it. Be yourselves, damn it!

Tetsuya Nomura is almost 40. And almost half of his life he has been working for the company.

So yeah. And people who have made the 1st Mario, Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest are still around making the new entries. It might be a good thing for long-time fans of these franchises but in fact it would probably be better if some of these old devs gave newcomers a chance.

Fainaru

Vive L'EMPEREUR!

Wait so does this mean there isn't any room for new people on your staff because you don't want to get rid of the old people who you admit are a problem, or there simply are no new people to hire? Gotta figure something out Square, there may come a time where Final Fantasy doesn't sell like hotcakes, and then what will you have left?

Deathbearer

I don't know Luke, I sort of got the impression of that which you said he left out, from what he said. I felt that the reluctance to take risks and such is a direct effect of the same people doing the same old job...I just feel that they're doing what they do best, which is make that one great game...but when it gets done for a decade straight, people start to notice.

@shouryuuken: Exactly. But thats not really the people who made those great games fault.

@Silveth: I can't help but notice that you're blowing off ASH, which got terrible reviews in Japan, and Blue Dragon, which wasn't exactly bad, but clearly an attempt to copy DragonQuest at best.

Yea, Mistwalker isn't exactly churning out the big hits either.

@excel_excel: Square's output has only been The Last Remnant on the console front. Project Sylpheed was published because they have a deal to publish everything from Game Arts. Infinite Undiscovery and Star Ocean 4 are tri-Games, just like End of Eternity. They're published by Squeenix, again, but not developed by them.

The vast majority of Square's development is actually on the DS and PSP right now.

@Rebochan: True enough

@Antiterra: Well there is actually innovation in those games. I think Halo 3 is ok but I'm not going to discredit to what it brought to the table, Forge and the match Viewer.

GTA IV and Killzone 2 ok. You got me there. What more can KZ2 do in a market saturated with FPSES? GTA IV I just didn't like. Hardly original games but I guess strictly speaking I'm talking about how LO felt to me. Just as your saying as how it felt amazing to you. I'm not discrediting how good LO was, I want to make that perfectly clear.

@kNZA:

I know it's a bit off-topic but FF13 threads are always where teh media-capacity discussions happen...

kNZA

Everyone says that MS will need to go BR for their next xbox.

What about flash-memory?

right now I can buy 32GB flash cards and 16GB is pretty cheap.

If the nextbox launches for xmas 2012, 64GB flash will be very cheap!

Every year afterwards, prices on flash will go down so profits will rise and games can get larger...

kNZA

@shouryuuken:

He meant that at the time of GoW's release, the # of 360s was lower than the # of PS3s at the time of MGS4's release.

kNZA

@Silveth: I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the game. I'm just stating that I feel it was an extremely unoriginal game. It felt like FF X except with a different improved story, and better graphics. Theres nothing wrong with that but there is no way that you can expect a company to make the same game over and over.

And I realise Square Enixs output on PS3 has been well basically nothing, I own a PS3, not a 360, and enjoy it very much and would like to see more games from them on it myself. Its not like their current gen home console output has been in abundance. Their output on 360 has been like what 3 games? Project Sylpheed was bizzare so lets not even count that. We've had Star Ocean and Infinite Undiscovery both games that quite frankly aren't worth bringing to PS3. And Last Remenant which is coming out on PS3. But judging from the 360 version I'm a little bir worried about it

@excel_excel: How was Lost Odyssey any less original than GTAIV, Halo 3, Street Fighter IV or Killzone 2? (I'm only mentioning games I've actually played - goes without saying but I'd rather say it anyway.)

To me, none of those games seemed overwhelmingly original. And yet, in their respective genres, they're all prime examples of how to do things right (I happily recognise that despite not being a fan of all of them - if any at all).

A lot of people (me included), consider Lost Odyssey to be an excellent JRPG, if not a genre-defining game.
If liking that game is "the problem", then so is liking anything id Software (for example) has done in the past 15 years.

And lastly, everything is "amazing" nowadays, so I wouldn't dwell on that. "Good" doesn't exist anymore, "fine" just means "could've been better", and "pleasant" is another way of saying "for kids".

@VenomStrike: No they're not. Gamers go where the games are, they buy the consoles that their friends have, etc.

@Akisazame: capcom kinda did abandon street fighter for 10 years, and they made all kinds of money.

@ben72227: While I think it's unfair to say that I don't understand business (mainly because I stand by my notion that Eidos probably won't bring much to SE that they might need), I'll accept the fact there must have been a great enough incentive for SE to make that bid.

@Silveth: I have no idea what their agenda is lol, but they seem to act like a headless chicken.

SE just don't seem to understand much. They really don't seem to think logically about anything. Taking the 360 for example, just because it has the larger marketshare does not mean the current base is interested in RPGs (There is evidence to suggest that this is really the case). I own a 360 and a PS3 so what console they birng thier games to doesn't concern me much but they need to support the PS3. The PS3 is the console where their games are gonna sell well if they are well made at least. SE really needs more focus, the generic JRPGs they churn out aren't gonna cut it.

@Pyrefly: Actually, I am part of SE fanbase and I own only a 360. I bet I am not the only one too.
This may be news to you, but I don't give a DAMN about console wars. Multiplatform is best.

Thriceborn

@excel_excel: See here's the problem, that's your opinion, not a fact used in a discussion. Yes, the merger with Enix was necessary because of the Spirits Within failure, but like I said before, he created so much good from the first FF to IX (my personal favorite), that I believe he just felt like he had to try something new and took a risk. Unfortunately it didn't work out for him.

Anyway, if you want to discuss my observations of Wada's numerous U.S. speeches or of SE's business model for the PS3 (or lack thereof) then that's fine, but I can't help you if you discredit me just because I enjoyed a game that you didn't.

@ben72227: this and that.

@celark:

lolololol +5

VenomStrike

@Silveth:
You don't understand business. Eidos was a steal at the price SE got them for. You're thinking too small - it's not about the games per se, it's about the developers. Just like Crytek bought Free Radical last year - it wasn't because they wanted Time Splitters and Haze IPs lol, it was that they wanted PS3 developers in their wings. SE made a very smart decision buying Eidos.

@Pyrefly:

wow dude..... you read my mind. its true the PS fan base is different that the 360 yet they screw the fans that supported them. theres gonna be a time when the newer fan base wont even know FF name brand.

VenomStrike

@Silveth: See heres the problem. Your one of the people that thinks Lost Odyssey was amazing when it was the most unoriginal game I've played this gen. Great story but the best parts of the game were the dreams that weren't even written by the people who wrote the main storyline. It was a step backward in every single way except graphics. It would have been better off as a film.

And Sakaguchi was definetly not pressured into making Spirits Within

I do seem to recall reading in the Dissidia: Final Fantasy Ultimania's interview that the team that worked on Dissidia (and the KH games) was made up of relatively new guys. Of course, I don't know how "new" they mean. Of course, this issue isn't exclusive to the video game industry in Japan. The animation industry is suffering from the same sort of problem.

here we go again, the problem isnt necessarily that the "old guys" at japanese companies arent doing anything new.. its that the stuff they do isnt popular with the masses any longer. i mean.. big western folks like cliffy b and ken levine have been working on pretty much the same types of games for over a decade now.. shooters. and guess what.. theyll probably still be working on shooters 10 years from now if theyre still this popular.

the west aint doing anything different. all the big sellers being games like halo, call of duty, gears of war, and grand theft auto prove this. sure... most of these games only became popular last gen, but besides gta's excellent use of sandbox gameplay.. none of them are doing anything new at all. i mean, wasnt the first important fps technically a wwII game? and that was how many years ago?

it just boils down to this, shooters, epic violence, and sand box games dealing with gangsters, war, and space marines are the top stuff these days. make a final fantasy based on a crime family or ex marine fighting aliens.. and itd sell 10 million.

@Rebochan: It's a Luke Plunkett article, what do you expect.

I've learned to just read the link and ignore his "colorful" commentary. The lack of risk-taking I'll agree with, but at the same time, what would happen if S-E abandoned FF or Nintendo abandoned Zelda or Capcom abandoned Street Fighter? The issue is a lot more complicated than just reliance on old franchises.

@Silveth: Probably because they were cheap and the opportunity presented themselves.
Seldom do you sit and scan and think "Hm, I think I'll buy these Valve-guys"

@excel_excel: Very true, except those two companies weren't known for making/inventing/reinventing a genre for over two decades.

If SE is really trying to be like EA and buy out devs to have them make money for them, then that's all fine. Just don't hold out on the games that made them a company.

@excel_excel: yeah, unfortunately.. when eastern devs try something new.. the stuff is ignored. valkyria chronicles, okami, and the world ends with you are just a few examples of spectacular new ips that didnt sell to the masses.

@Silveth: They were 3 games using the same engine, developed on the same console and the tech didn't change while they were making those games.
you mentioned Sakaguchi in your original post but he's the reason they had to merge with Enix in the first place.
And in this interview he seemed to be complimenting American developers. Whats wrong with that? Do you not see his point which is true that the vast majority of japanese developers are old, while in the western world we've seen new studios open regularly, we've seen young creative companies with fresh ideas.

@Fainaru: theres roughly 9 million more xbox 360s in the wild, and 17 million in the us... where a game like gears of war is popular. so if metal gear solid 4 has sold about 4 mil against a SERIES that has sold 10 mil combined... i dont think its done bad at all. the smaller userbase isnt with gears of war lol.. its with mgs4. if konami wasnt so stubborn and put it on the 360, itd have blown gears away.

@Rebochan: Is that so? Well, Lost Odyssey is still amazing, and so are his FF classics, so I can't say. I feel bad for the guy if he, too, felt pressure to do something different and it obviously didn't work out for him. Being the man behind FF though I can't say I would blame him for anything other than greatness.

What about Keita Takahashi, the creator of Katamari Damacy and Noby Noby Boy? He seemed to be a new guy, and his ideas are genius, although Noby Noby Boy borders on genius and insane.

celark

Dear Mr. Wada;

Please remember that you live in JAPAN...and "old people doing the same old job" is, and forever will be, the driving force behind Japanese business...

Sincerely,

FarmboyinJapan

FarmboyinJapan

@shouryuuken: Well then why Eidos? Did the latest Tomb Raider do better than I thought I heard? I just don't get it.

@Timothy Saskiewicz:
hey kid check out the creator of Ico and shadow of the colossus. Both incredible games created by a young game designer. In your face.

@Pyrefly: It isn't so much of a fanboy issue, as I'm sure some would call it, it really is just that SE's current gen efforts have been lazy, while Sakaguchi's brilliant game shines without them.

And saying that it's bad that SE haven't supported the PS3 isn't just from an owner standpoint, even if I wish they'd put games on my console of choice, it's just common sense at this point for their own market, and the U.S. too, really. I don't need to bring up the impact of the XIII demo on PS3 sales, but it's obvious that SE hasn't noticed. The U.S. 360 crowd doesn't really seem all that interested in their games either, because I'm sure their is a larger JRPG fanbase on the PS3.

So, what is SE's real agenda? And is it working?

@Silveth: huh? thats not really the same because square bought eidos just to make more money i believe. not to try and make racing games... or tomb raider. its called business, theyre trying to be a japanese ea or activision. not make racing games.

@chaseus: I was about to ask someone here why he got the nickname Imperial Hot. Where did we get that picture?

@excel_excel: I cannot blame technology when they made three main FF games on the PS1 in a span of a few years. FFVII is when they started using CG cutscenes and learning 3D technology and it seemed to work out efficiently for them back then.

And I can easily say that they are trying to be an American company because every single time Wada opens his mouth it's about how amazing his competitors are doing and how much he wants to copy that. I thought that was the main bullet-point of this article is that he's reiterating again how US is his new business model.

As for the V and VI remakes, if that is true, I hope they announce it soon as I've been playing through them all and I'm just now on IV.

@excel_excel: New IPs come out of Japan all the time. I don't know why the western press acts like this isn't true except that this gen, the western press has turned distressingly jingoist.

@Silveth: And the reason Sakaguchi is gone is because he's the reason the company went bankrupt in the first place. Blame him for Wada - if he hadn't lost all their money on The Spirits Within, he'd still be there.

Final Fantasy XIII is the last Final Fantasy.....Yoichi Wada will make sure Final Fantasy as a franchise will end together with him. He will soon be terminated...

ahmeng

@Deathbearer: There's plenty of new people, but they probably haven't made it to where they were the game designers

Shin-san

@excel_excel: Fair enough, I guess. Try not to alienate a group of people next time, though, because I certainly don't think I'm part of a problem of anything.

However, you said LO is like X but "with a different improved story, and better graphics". Better story and graphics? Sounds good to me.

And I know what you meant. You excluded the gameplay because it was the same old situation. Well, why can't games like LO coexist with Valkyria Chronicles or White Knight or even Fallout 3? When we invented the chair with rolling wheels, did people stop using just a regular chair with regular legs?

Lame analogy sure, but my point remains valid. Let some companies innovate, others improve, and some refine. That way everyone can enjoy their favorite type of RPG!

*cheers amongst gamers*

@lolomfgisuck: Better to read the actual article lest you make a fool of yourself. He *is* heeding his own advice. Also he's only been in charge for the past couple of games, where there was only one girly boy who decided to quit the belts for an Aladdin style look, was more obnoxious than shy, and totally failed to bang the princess.

@Rebochan: I can never seem to explain my comments well enough. This is not a backhanded statement against you or anyone, though. Just saying.

Blue Dragon was indeed a copy of Dragon Quest, a series that I liked as a kid, but just like its Dragon Ball style characters, such a series and an effort from Mistwalker seems redundant to me. ASH, I can't comment on, but Japanese sales were pretty abysmal.

But what do you expect Sakaguchi to do now? He thought he could jump into the animated movie uprising and made Spirits Within, and that failed. So he politely stepped down in embarrassment and founded his own company where he made a new RPG. He made Blue Dragon I'm sure to capitalize on the Dragon Quest market and ASH for the handheld. I think he was just trying to get some games under his belt, personally.

But why am I being so positive in regards to the man? Final Fantasy. Call me naive, but that's how I wish to see it. Sure, what he's doing now isn't as great or defiant as his past work, but give the man a break; he's had it rough. If he never makes a good game again, then oh well, at least he gave us what he did.

I'll give him a little benefit of the doubt for that.

Wada is stupid, he should go and play games like Patapon , valkyria chronicles, the Phoenix Wright series, Okami, The World Ends With You, Noby Noby Boy, LocoRoco, Mother 3, Katamari damacy, Jet Set Radio, Breakdown (a fps on Xbox with groundbreaking ideas).

The japanese come up with new ideas all the time. where are the new ideas from the west? all what i see are FPSs and garbage wannabe rpgs, i want more games like Lost Odyssey & my favorite rpg Skies of Arcadia and less games like Fallout 3.

AnthonM2

@Akisazame: well megaman 9 kinda doesnt count... because first of all.. it wasnt exactly a multi million seller.. second.. it was only 10 bucks, and third.. mega man has had a steady amount of games going since it came out... while street fighter was entirely lacking new content for about a decade. but my point is.. street fighter hasnt made capcom tons of money for a long time (before this year that is).. yeah they revived it.. but they could have never made another one and still been rich dogs.

@Archaotic: And the moral of the thread is that proper punctuation is important.

I think Wada is just trying to find a simple solution for a complex problem. Really, I fail to see the leaps and strides that have been made in the West.

However, if I could pin down one common thread between the best selling games in recent years, I would say it's well-implemented multiplayer. Not every game needs it, but those that do it right have been richly rewarded.If done right, it creates dynamics that can't be done in single player (see Left 4 Dead). Even Japan, which supposedly doesn't value multiplayer as highly, isn't immune to this, as evidenced by Monster Hunter.

Tiber

@Akisazame: Well, look at what happened when they put those franchises on hold for so long. People screamed that they were abandoning their roots. *Especially* the Megaman fans. The market incentive to keep making these ensures they will continue when Capcom's more original offerings like Zack and Wiki tank or Okami are tanking.

@Casual_Hardcore: I know, soooo old. In rpg logic, being 25 means your already an old foggy.

Never mind that the average life expectency over there is about 80 years.

@Deathbearer: Um, the movie I'm talking about is Advent Children, haha. Why would I bring up Spirits Within in regards to the PS3? Craziness. Capcom make entirely different games, so apples and oranges comparisons aren't entirely relevant.

SE innovate plenty, people who accuse them of not doing so probably aren't looking outside the main series (which goes through significant changes with each iteration in any case). TWEWY and Sigma Harmonics are excellent examples of fresh new ideas, and the Cystal Chronicles offshoot brand shows them testing out different genres as well.

@shouryuuken: Don't forget the Phoenix Wright series from Capcom

AnthonM2

@Pyrefly: Same here, I go through phases. Star Ocean 4 has a lot of charm and the battle system is phenomenal, even better than Vesperia's. I really enjoyed both of those.

"they're already in their late thirties". OMG!!!

Casual_Hardcore

@shouryuuken: And yet looked at what happened when they revived it. Same goes for Mega Man 9.

I have to agree with him completely. If only for story telling. I'm sure that FFXIII will be a great game, but it was halarious to me when the people at 1up.com did a preview of the demo, and that every question they had about the game ended with the statment "so just like final fantasy 7?".

"You see the main character is an EX Soldier" "So like final fantasy 7?"

"You are playing as a group of freedom fighters for " "So just like Final Fantasy 7?"

[www.1up.com]

"...a reluctance to take risks and an over-reliance on old franchises..."

Coming from the guy who makes game after game featuring outcast girly boys in clothes made out of belts who save the world and overcome their extreme shyness to bang the hottest girl in the land who is also a princess.

He should heed his own advice sometime.

lolomfgisuck

@Rebochan: Ah yeah I was just refering to what they published. Should mention how awesome some of their handheld stuff is!

@WFROSE: Cliffy B makes games that sell.

That doesn't mean they are good games. Just games that cater to a larger demographic.

@PhageLab: What?

@Madeira:

the followings not the same. its like music threw the years..they have loyal fans and leftover fan base from the times they become slightly less known. When you play a game you get the full impact of its greatness but as other games appear, better graphics music etc the game you played semi dies out.

also 2 friends of mine have a PS3 me being the 2nd and 4 others have 360.. gamers go where they choose to go not play follow the leader.

VenomStrike

@Antiterra: If liking Lost Odyssey is the problem, so is liking anything Square-Enix has put out for the past six years.

Not developed (because that'd be what, one game? The rest were pretty much all developed outside the company. Even the FF remakes weren't entirely made by them), released.

@Timothy Saskiewicz: Well, yeah, but Cliffy B made a game that sold 4 mil within two months, regardless of how glitchy you peeps keep harking on (while not considering how huge that game is to play test, and aside the from fact that most games reaching that large a scale tend to be glitch fests), and without the massive history and fanbase behind it like the Metal Gear series.

Bad comparison you made there...

@Lincolnsbeard33: It's been a trend where the Japanese developers have praised the west for moving forward in game development... period.

@Buttah: The Delicious One: That's a short-sighted perspective. If we thought like that, crafts like baking, buthery, smithing, and such would have died out, and we wouldn't even have videogames today.

Hiring young blood and GROOMING them to take over is how a business survives past the lifespan of one old guy.

@Silveth: Um, just to refresh your memory, Final Fantasy VII took almost three years to make, originally supposed to be on the N64, remember? FF8 took almost two years, and FF9 was being developed BEFORE they even finished Final Fantasy 8, being worked on by the Square Studio in Hawaii.

@Silveth: "Seriously, I just don't know what the hell it is that they are doing with FFXIII, but it better be over 200 hours long for such a dev cycle."

Clearly you were out sick on the day your Econ professor taught the class about the "Law of Diminishing Returns."

Druffmaul

@Silveth: Wider distribution in the West

"other things wrong with most Japanese developers a reluctance to take risks and an over-reliance on old franchises" FUCK YES! Because Americans are so Avant-Garde and fucking creative, constantly redefining gaming with that endless sea of putrid filth like Call of Duty 4 and shitier clones of dirt like Gears of War, senseless violence, plastic shiny bald macho soldiers, dual wielding,co-op and the great vision of 6 hr tutorials that cost 60$!!!! yes we need more of that shit.

KyleRat

@Madeira: There are only 3 major consoles, of course you buy the consoles your friends have. I couldn't very well invent a new console that none of my friends had...

@Silveth: Well yeah your exactly right but I'd like to see.....umm.....I think I've forgotten my point :I

The guy is a dickhead. =/ Ever since he took over, SE has been going downhill in virtually every category.

QBasic

@AnthonM2: It's not about new ideas, but also about the Japanese gaming industry as a whole. The amount of games and consoles sold in Japan is dropping and there's a movement to handheld games. Yes, they should keep some of the old model, but if they don't bring in a new audience, then you can say bye-bye to the Katamaris and Valkyria

Shin-san

Shut up wada you don't even make games all you do is take money and talk about stuff that makes people angry. This particular thing is mostly true but still shut up.

@Buttah: The Delicious One: Those old people run out of ideas, retire, and even die. Not keeping fresh blood going in a company sets everything up for a downfall

Shin-san

You can't only blame developers for this problem, since some of the problem lies within Japanese consumers (not that I'm absolving Western consumers of this, but...) They aren't exactly buying up new and innovative games. Games that do great in reviews are dismal in sales. And, as it has been said time and time again, this is a business. They're going to sell what sells. And what sells in Japan is the name they can recognize.

@Gaff:Sakaguchi's last classic, GOOD FF was 9, IMHO, but compared to the sales and fanfapfactor over 10, it didn't matter crap.

@Swift_:Games that become true classes or mold breakers typically take 2-3 years of development time.

Chocobo Tales is the most worthwhile risk i've seen SE take, along with The World Ends with You. Everything else is same old, same old.

@Archaotic:Evolve or die. SE has to do so. Everyone has, from Nintendo to Sony to Microsoft. If anything SE's 360 efforts largely did poorly outside of Japan because they did not get the same focus that a FF tier title did.

And Star Ocean 4 is by no means a bad game, unless you for whatever reason are a JRPG elitest.

@shouryuuken:

So how come Yakuza didn't sell 10 million? It had gangsters, street brawls, profanity and you can get your character piss drunk. In the street brawls you could bash people with fire extinguishers and stomp on their faces.

Bricked

@Rebochan:
Mm. So, a crazy time for the Japanese to start looking to the West. People are seriously suggesting taking up the nuclear program again, and ditch the US for defense- cooperation. Meanwhile, Square Enix wants to reach out. Makes sense, I guess.

Well, that last part, he completely has a point. I mean look at Sega in regards to NA. They just half-assed the release of Yakuza 2 and Valkyria here, and just seem to rely on Sonic.

Bricked

@Lincolnsbeard33:
Yeah. Kind of laughed a bit about that as well. ..But they certainly see that in film, animation and cgi projects. Just as they see how anything originally made in Japanese will be hailed for originality and skill, and so on, perhaps - but fail to sell more than five copies outside Japan. So from a business- standpoint - if you have decided that video- games along with entertainment in general is going the way of the mass market... instead of being only for the game- geeks - then "appealing to the west" is absolutely necessary. Not just because of greed, but because the games have bigger budgets, and can't be sustained on smaller scale for special markets.

Kojima has said a few things about that as well, on Hollywood productions - and I cringe every time. Because obviously what I want to see is something that is genuinely successful because it's a good product, and not because something is hyped to heaven and released in concert with a great marketing campaign. Or contains space- nazis. And I'd like for them to say: "if a majority of US consumers doesn't like the product we're making, and it's not hailed as the usual "yes, this game appeals to everyone, and contains nothing cerebrally challenging whatsoever" - do we really care? We're just making what we can do and everyone else can't".

But from a business- standpoint, it makes all kinds of sense to directly appeal to the west (although I have no idea what that really means if not making bland commercialised games). And so does buying Eidos - to lessen the "taint" of being a quirky publisher of crazy Japanese games that only sexually and emotionally confused teens play.

And I mean.. you do see how serious all of this really is, when "Kill Bill" outsells every single one of the series it blatantly rips off, badly, at least a million to one. Compared with one week for either of the films at the box- office, to the lifetime sales of all the series put together. While Tarantino hires Asian artists to make the films.

And while no one really knows the backstory of "Kung Fu", or that they hired in a Japanese superstar as an extra - that he appears about.. three minutes? And even the Japs like it. I mean - from that point of view, it's very evident that there's no money in appealing to your fanbase any more, or us quirky guys who enjoy Japanese games and entertainment.. because even the worst of it tends to be vastly superior artistically and conceptually to all the crap we get over here.

At the same time - what happens to actually good western productions? Firefly? Babylon 5? Franchise farming and/or bans from networks. It just doesn't want to sell, either because it's drowned out by shit - or perhaps because it has genuinely become impossible to make money unless you produce bland, commercialised crap - as the fanbase is shrinking.

If so, Square Enix wants in on the game. And it's a sound business- decision, obviously. So.. I won't buy their games anymore - and five Americans will, I guess..? *shrug*

@Lockgar:

Yeah,

that guy can just screw right off. Most creative industries such as film, tv, literature, etc. they have people who are way, WAY older still contributing significantly to their respective fields.

There is a major problem in this industry that people don't realize. It is definitely not friendly to the "older set" past mid-thirties. Except for the "rock stars" most burn out, or get pushed out and leave for a better climate where they don't have to grind and still try to have a life and a family. In essence, all of the shared experience from these people is lost.

I only know a handful of people past that age that are still working on games and I think that's a shame.

And for all of the kiddies thinking "good riddance", would you get rid of someone like Joss Whedon, Ron Moore, Ridley Scott, or all of their D.P.s, or crew, who most who are in their 60's by now?

I don't think so..

@Rebochan: I can't wait to play that new hostess game!

@Archaotic:
FF7 Dev start: 1994, Release 1997
FF8 Dev start: 1997, release 1999
FF9 Dev start: 1997, release 2000
FF10 Dev start: 1999, release 2001
FF12 Dev start: 2001, release 2006

Sakaguchi's last FF as a producer was 9. The last FF he designed was 6. The last FF he directed was 5. FF7's much touted innovation is taking FF into 3D, nothing more, nothing less. Not a massive overhaul of the battle system like 12's Gambit System (or 13), nor the character customization options (Sphere Grid) of 10.

@Silveth: You're basically saying that Excel_Excel's opinions are invalid because he doesn't agree with you. Also: "Lost Odyssey is still amazing", "he created so much good from the first FF to IX (my personal favorite)" and "Sakaguchi's brilliant game" are also opinions. Unless you're saying that the general consensus of reviewers is that Lost Odyssey was "brilliant"...

[www.metacritic.com]

I can't help you if you discredit someone because he didn't enjoy a game that you did enjoy.

@FarmboyinJapan: Well, with Japan's lowered birthrate and aging population, I don't think they have much choice but to really on the old guys.

@Rebochan: Last I checked, it isn't. Should've used Halo Wars or ODST as a better example.

@shouryuuken: In Valkyria's case, SRPGs have never been very popular in the west, but they also decided to release it at a terrible time, when numerous other big name titles were coming out. As for Okami and TWEWY, they actually did pretty well for being heavily Japanese and heavily stylized.

@Timothy Saskiewicz: Let me add on to your comment, bro.

Dear Square Enix, your games have been selling less and less since the days of the original PlayStation. In fact, outside of Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts, you've never had games that achieved amazing sales, except during a JRPG peak around the middle of the PS2's lifetime. Obviously the interest in JRPGs in the Western market is declining and if you want to appeal to a Western audience, you need to make your games less Japanese.

@shouryuuken: While the 360 does have a higher userbase, Metal Gear is a long running series that has been a hit in all regions since the first Metal Gear Solid was released on the PSX. Gears of War, however, is a new IP, established just this gen. I'd say that it's kind of sad in MGS4's case that a new IP sold better than an existing one, but... then again, Metal Gear's sales have been declining since the second game.

@CommentatorHatman: IMO, GoW is better than MGS, but I was never really a fan of MGS anyway.

@AncientUnknown1: Post Of The Month. Hands down winner.

ARCH_27

@VenomStrike: We don't play hardware- we play games. There is no PS fanbase or 360 fanbase, other than maybe a few freaked-out maniacs here and there. Give credit from the game makers, not the hardware.

RE: 'follow the leader'... we buy what we want, sure- but the prospect of being able to borrow from your friends' game library, and/or play online with them is a factor. If you buy all of the platforms, then none of this should matter at all.

@FarmboyinJapan: And just as it tends to happen in Japan, something comes along that drastically threatens the old way of doing things, forcing them to change. The opening of Japanese borders to foreigners when threatened by the US, World War 2, the invention of MP3 players...

@Archaotic: Seriously... I didn't like SO3 either, personally, but saying SO4 is a gem is pretty amusing.

Wada says this stuff a lot. What's he actually releasing to prove he wants to buck that trend? And if someone says TWEWY, that was a year ago now.

@Archaotic: Comment of the week.

@celark: Takahashi thinks it's okay to make a "stupid & pointless game" & so do I! So actually yea, I do think he is pretty much a genius lol.

Rock74

@Rebochan: EXACTLY right. Sakaguchi is hailed as a saint by many of the hardcore but he's one of the main reasons Square had to file for bankruptcy. Everybody seems to like to put that ultra expensive flop "The Spirit's Within" out of their minds when they talk up Sakaguchi's virtues.

Rock74

@Foxstar is in love with Kotaku's two Brians.: So true. 10's hyped up so great but doesn't a candle to any of the PS1 final fantasies

@CommentatorHatman: Also important: Just because you don't like a game doesn't mean it's not a good game.

ps360blows

@Ladi: I thought we were just talking films in general :P

Ah but see some people like apples more than oranges and if a company only has oranges the people who like apples will give their money to someone else. And if the orange company doesn't get any different types of oranges, the orange people will get tired of their oranges and go somewhere else and the orange company will lose money then it doesn't matter that they were giving out something different than apples, simply that they went out of business.

Okay I have no idea what I just said..guess what I'm saying is if you rely on one or two franchises for too long you wind up like Midway

Deathbearer

@shouryuuken: Didn't Kotaku just have an article explaining how Square-Enix was going to keep Eidos making the same stuff? Wait, here it is:

[kotaku.com]

It was posted yesterday.

Paul_Is_Drunk

@Bricked: yakuza had japanese gangsters.. not necessarily appealing to the average american consumer. but guess what? its a huge hit in japan. one thing i didnt say was brawls.. thats another huge difference in yakuza and gta. you cant just grab a gun from cops and shoot up innocent civilians.

@ahmeng: I'm going to take a wild guess here ...

you haven't played the demo yet have you?

Shinta

@ARCH_27: I knew there was a reason I added this guy to my friend list at some point.

Shinta

@Hraesvelgr: Not really. It has one of the best combat systems of any RPG to date. The rest is a bit lacking, I agree. Gem refers to a game you didn't expect alot from and found out it was great. That's pretty much the perfect description of Star Ocean 4.

Shinta

@Rock74: Or yeah, Blue Dragon, that was a steaming pile of shit.

All I have to say to everyone saying that SE has been a complete failure, have you played the XIII demo yet? If you haven't played it, yourself, on a nice TV, then yeah .... you don't know what you are talking about yet. It's pretty much the best video game ever made.

Also, SE is about to release their next MMO which should rake in the money. Star Ocean 4 was sick, other than some unfortunate glitches that were the result of some much needed experimentation with new engines, The Last Remnant was brilliant aswell.

Shinta

@Ladi: Yeah, I agree. They've got good games that aren't normal FF's, like their Tactics games, TWEWY, FFCC, Kingdom Hearts, and other types of RPGs that are much more action-based (well...not Tactics, but the rest), and they still have pretty good polish on these "lesser" games.

Sadly, I'd bet adding FF to the title does more for their sales than just saying it was made by SE, so that doesn't help them much at all with innovating.

But if you really look at the series, it's only the name that's staying the same. It's not like Mario, where the plot hardly changes, or most other franchises with constantly recurring characters (ie Street Fighter, Megaman, Resident Evil...for some reason, only Capcom stuff is coming to mind). Each FF is its own story, with only a few things keeping it consistent: magic names, spirit names, airships/Cid, and maybe moogles and chocobos (along with some of their own species becoming more popular recently).

kagekiri

@VenomStrike:

error :

sky rocketed on the PS brand.. i mean

@Lockgar: ...that was one of the reasons Valkyria Chronicles was so refreshing.

@Madeira:

mostly everyone i know has a few friends with the same system no one borrows anything... they BUY IT. When people buy a system its for the games not with a mentality of borrowing it.

btw Halo has a 360 fan base. i can play Halo but i wont run out the door to get the next Halo because i have never followed the series, so im not as pumped when a new version comes out. FF fan base came from Nintendo and sky rocketed on the PS2. 360 has never had insane sales on jrpg. This isn't a system debate, its a fan debate. the original articles about them pushing games out very late. the other guys response pyreflys response was on them leaving out the PS3 for jrpg in favor of the 360 when it did crappy sales. you forget they claimed they would support both system when so far its been 3-0. The longer they take in production people slowly start forgetting about them. that also includes neglecting a system who they always supported and had very good sales.

I agree on your last part BUT not everyone can afford to buy every game system. that simple..buying multiple systems for 1 or 2 games is a waste of money. especially when SE stated many times it would support every system.

VenomStrike

@Hraesvelgr: i see what you guys were saying, but i still think this argument would be different if metal gear solid was on xbox 360 as well as ps3.. i honestly think the sales would have been even higher than if gears was on ps3 as well. and the first gears only sold about 4 mil, which is around what mgs 4 did for a less popular console.

@Gaff: Man, what is with everyone on the internet feeling like they have to not only be right, but find fault in everyone else's opinions?

You said it yourself WFROSE, it moved from the N64 to the PS1, and still only took three years to make. Five > three. Is it different now with the new technology? Sure it is, but that doesn't excuse the FFXII five year wait also after they already made an FF on the PS2. Obviously their efficiency has diminished, and that's the whole point of my argument.

And Gaff, man, I can't help you either. You obviously want to make me look bad, and I can't change your motivations. I will say though that while yes, you're obviously right that my statements about Sakaguchi are clearly opinions, but if you noticed I never used them as the basis for my points, I was merely stating my opinions, mainly because people kept reiterating that they thought he has been on a decline. I was allowed, in my view, to say that to excel_excel because he was saying that I was part of a problem by liking a videogame that he didn't. I never discredited his opinions and I thought he and I settled our discussion quite civily, actually. (I even made a friendly comment to begin with talking about the V and VI remakes that no one seemed to notice >.<)

Seriously guys, I love discussing things even if I'm blatantly wrong. But just because people on Kotaku have opinions doesn't mean they've insulted you, so please don't take it that way.

@Silveth: /sigh

You do know that the big delay with FFXII was in part due to the well-documented "illness" of Yasumi Matsuno? If I remember correctly, the first of those rumours started surfacing in 2004.

Anyway, onto the rest:
Premise A: Sakaguchi is a good game designer.
Premise B: Squaresoft employed the Gooch,
Therefor: Squaresoft was good.

Premise C: Squaresoft is good with Sakaguchi.
Premise D: Sakaguchi left Squaresoft.
Therefor: Squaresoft is bad.

While the arguments might be valid (in a logical sense), there is a slight problem with the truth. While Sakaguchi can be called the father of Final Fantasy, his actual stake in Squaresoft had lessened by the time Squaresoft started to diversify into different titles. The Front Mission, Mana, Tobal, Bushido Blade series have all had zero input from Sakaguchi but were both internally developed and critical successes. Not to mention the various one-offs like Vagrant Story and Einhänder.

A statement with some truth in it though is that under Wada's presidency Square-Enix has shifted away from game development to a publishing house. A largely successful manga publishing arm and associated merchandising is a good business venture. Have they shot themselves in the game foot relying on Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy and some one-shots (The World Ends With You, for example) now? Maybe.

@excel_excel: It's kind of ironic to see that comment in the light of LO's apparent lack of innovation. FF7 had its Materia, FF8 had its draw / junction system. 9 was in essence a return to 6's Magicite system, while lacking the characterization from the previous FFs. IMHO.

@Pyrefly: AGREED!

@shouryuuken:

I think your numbers are off; GoW is approaching 6M.

Also, you are forgetting that there were fewer 360s when GoW was released than there were PS3s when MGS4 was released.

kNZA

He's not one to talk, SE keeps remaking old Final Fantasies and making spinoffs.

I really dont like Wada.

Sniktbub