Capcom Developer Vs. From Software Developer On Xbox 360

@ViceOfFire: It's not as if the PS3 has 8 "fully functional" cores. It only has one fully functional core and seven additional cores that are better for number crunching that graphics. That is what makes it a problem. If it were just simply 8 cores, there wouldn't be many complaints.

@Guizzy: I support this idea, although maybe fix a few of the balancing issues, ergo the Double-Double Reverse-Joint Howiehounds. Seriously, those were fun as heck to use, but unbalanced as all get out. It was amusing when one of our team first made one and dubbed it the 'God Mech' just because it was so brutal.

@rich8606: True story.

I went to E3 this year and played Forza 3 in the big hydraulic seat with the wheel. While in line, I was talking to the guys running the booth. I had no idea that these guys were actually devs with Turn 10.

The game looks absolutely amazing in action, so I asked him if he thought they tapped all the 360's power. He said no, and that TIME is everything. Given even more time, they could have made the game look even better.

The reason why games look successively better isnt because the devs unlock some dormant secret power of the console over time. Its because they either re-use or update engines they have already developed, or use common knowledge learned about the HW over time.

Thats why we will see a longer shelf life for these consoles. Its also why middleware is so popular this gen, such as Unreal 3.

@Ceiling90: And not all videogame companies out of Japan want to make turn based, sword waving, effeminate bitch boy games that only appeal to weebos and culturally stagnant fanboys.

Two can play at lame generalizations.

they're talking about two different things....

mutedia

Listen, I see there are several engineers and developers in this here thread. So I just wanted to say, I don't think you guys are lazy, but you should probably go back and tighten up the graphics on level 3.

@BlueToast likes parenthises.: But quite frankly, maybe they just like to make "Japanese" games which will have no traction at all in the global market... That's like asking an artist to make art for the sake of money. I mean their a videogame company and they do a lot for the sake of money... but maybe they have some sort of integrity to their ideas or wants as to what games they make. Not all videogame companies want to make FPS that star large sweaty buff men shooting aliens, people or anything that moves...

Ceiling90

there's nothing "backwards" about it. its the type of game he wants to make. it just like how NA/EU devs do absolute crap to appeal to anyone outside of their fanbases. if the situation was reversed, and it was the US/EU market suffering and the japanese one booming, you'd see a complete reverse in fortunes, because the mentalities of the companies are EXACTLY the same. Pander to YOUR audience. There's this horrid misconception that the one true way is to cater to everyone; or for westerners, cater to westerners. iD said recently in an interview, they don't want to develop on the Wii. why? is it because they think its horrible? no. its simply because they have no interest making the games that sell on the Wii. "not everyone is trying to please everyone" was the jist of iD's position, and its the jist of From's position. Capcom is in a different position, their games have always been as popular, or in some cases MORE popular, in the west than in Japan. But From is different, and they apparently have no problem being different. there's nothing backwards about it, quite frankly its more to the point and honest to their own artistic vision than pandering to another audience simply for the sake of pandering to a different audience. THAT is backwards.

TalbotAlligator

I'm an Armored Core fan from the PS1 days. Shit, I remember playing the DEMO for Hours, and searching all over Phoenix for a copy.

Unfortunately, I just couldn't play newer ones(ps2 and later). I'd try and try, but it just wasn't as fun.

@[twitter.com]: "jokingly referring to bias is even more lame"

So is getting Disemvoweled for telling the poster he's wrong, and is purposely leaving something out for "some" reason.
Also, the fact that most of the readerbase doesn't read Japanese, is even more of a reason for him to mention it, IN ENGLISH.

@Ice-nine froze my baby: Think Locally, Fuck Globally!

@El-Suave: LOL, it's only Tuesday and I think we already have a candidate for comment of the week.

@NitroAML: Thats some imagination you got there! lol.

SuprShin

@ShimodaNexus: I thought 4 was alot better than 4 Answer.

@Fengato: troll is a troll

@Sloopydrew: RE5 disappointing. Shouldn't even have Resident Evil in its name.

@ViceOfFire: It's not laziness, the PS3 is considerably harder to develop for. That in itself is one deterant, but continually low sales for PS3 titles is another. Also depends on the company, Valve for instance is constantly harassed as "lazy" for refusing to learn PS3 architecture, but they are a PC company. The 360 is close enough for an easy port.

What Takeuchi says is also true, but more for his company that Capcom. From Software have never been huge outside Japan, with Armored Core and Tenchu never been hugely acclaimed titles.

Jennacide

@ViceOfFire: I've been thinking maybe, that dev's probably do want to dev other than that fat guy, but publishers are just pushing them or whoever calling shots, are making decisions they think are right and not letting devs dev, and take thier time is all, run one sentence ftw.

@stranger: I still don't really understand the "Tenchu was great in it's heyday" statements. The first two Tenchu games are almost unplayable now. Tenchu has steadily gotten better with every game up to the present.

Shinta

From Software: Chromehounds 2...

Please?

@ye0073: seeing as most of the readerbase here doesn't read japanese, your post is useless. also jokingly referring to bias is even more lame.

@ViceOfFire:

So, the developers are lazier this generation, but they're not lazy? Looks like you've been backed into a corner and aren't willing to graciously admit defeat.

Developers aren't any lazier now than they were in the past. If anything, their jobs have gotten harder as the consumer demands more and more from them. With timelines getting tighter and gameplay/technical demands increasing, the developers have to work every bit as hard as they have in the past, if not moreso. You saying that they are lazier compared to previous generations is nothing more than baseless speculation on your part.

LaneWinree

@Hraesvelgr:

The Otogi series? Armored Core was great in it's heydey, as was Tenchu. Just because they aren't great anymore doesn't mean FROM hasn't made good games. Chromehounds was one of the first great Xbox Live games for 360... heck, even Ninja Blade was a fun, if shallow, experience.

Just wait until you see Demon's Souls for PS3. I messed with the Chinese version of that game a couple of months ago and it looks awesome!

Sounds to me like they are talking about two totally different things that just happen to involve the xbox 360. One is hardware related, the other is marketing related.

Yippee!

@LaneWinree:
God, I USED A FUCKING RELATIVE TERM. Lazier =/= lazy.
I said they appear to be lazier this gen.

ViceOfFire

@n00b_pwner: Another aspect is that Microsoft treats outside programmers almost as part as an internal team. Chances are, a lot of programmers got their start at Microsoft because in reality, that really is the case.

Shin-san

@rich8606: multi threaded processing is the future of home computing so people should probably get used to it. Intel's new processor architecture has 100 threads running at once, and these developers are having trouble running more than 2 threads and operating within memory constraints. The hardware has been available for years now, but companies aren't making the decisions now that are going to dominate the future.

@Cridia: Finally someone making sense. Programmers sometimes have to worry about feeding a family over revolutionizing the industry

Shin-san

@ViceOfFire:

Saying "IMO" doesn't give you free reign to spout off bullshit.

You are completely and utterly wrong about developers being lazy and just about everyone in this subthread has given you numerous reasons as to why you are wrong.

LaneWinree

@[www.devpapers.com]

Shin-san

@[httpd.apache.org]

The information you put into that website connects to some sort of database server (typically SQL) and it trickles down to the 360, where things happen in the game happen to get onto the webpage. The info you put into a webpage typically is sent via HTTP.

And if you ever have taken a computer networks class involving programming, you study HTTP as a case example of how to make a network protocol like the kind used on Xbox LIVE, bittorrent, chat servers, etc. You can indeed make a basic webserver in many programming languages pretty easily if you know the protocol.

Shin-san

@Valkrin:
Please stop with your "bitches don't know about my HTTP".

you now have me convinced that your foray into "game development" went about as far as trying to make a browser based game.

All your arguments boil down to is you claiming to be some dev. And correct me if I'm wrong, but "management" and the actual people working on the game would need to decide together what platform would be best to publish the game on.

@LaneWinree: I said "IMO", and I thought that was a given anyway. Of course there's nothing to prove that they were exaggerating except for the amount of good looking and playing games that seem to get over the hurdle of the PS3's difficulty to code for.

ViceOfFire

"The fact that you must make games for a global audience," he explains, "makes the Xbox 360 a difficult platform."

No, it only makes the 360 a difficult platform for Japanese publishers. They need to realize that the era of Japan-first is coming to a close. Gaming is now thoroughly global, and the American (or European, or Asian, etc.) gaming markets are no longer niches that generally follow whatever trends are being set by the gamers in Japan.

All developers and publishers must now think globally, all the time, from the get go. Sure, they can pursue geographical strategies. But they can no longer stick their heads in the sand and pretend that competitors don't exist on other continents, or that what their far-flung competitors are doing won't affect them.

Furious George

@ViceOfFire: I wouldn't say "lazy" because with this generation, you got a lot of other challenges. Others have given thorough explanations already.

However, there's this notion that if the PS3 version doesn't look as good as the Xbox 360 version, the developer is being lazy. Just because Sony says it's more powerful, doesn't mean it is. PC gamers may remember the whole "Megahertz myth" bit that Apple did. In reality, the P4 gamed better than the G4. The megahertz myth is true to a great extent, but back then,

+ Watch video

and Sony pulled the same type of stuff. With a different architecture, of course you'll find a few instances where one blows the other away.

Shin-san

@ye0073: I think making games in general is hard for that guy.

Daniel Pizarro Sánchez

@Zolbrod: Hahaha, it looks really good, but it´s not the revolution the first one was in terms of graphics, gameplay or anything else. It´s pretty good to see Trish in HD though.

Daniel Pizarro Sánchez

@everyone: look folks we,ve been through this shit before we all know at the end of the day as much as we all hate to admit it it all boils down to one thing... money.

If ps3 was the leading install base and and was beating out wii and 360 then it would be "no problem" for them to work out their development issues...

but it isnt so there gonna be meh about developing for it because they figure im probably not gonna see a return on it cause no ones gonna buy it.

now im not saying its not freakin hard, its probably a pain in the ass... but if you get a six figure or 7 figure return on your game... yeah you dont feel that bad about developing for a hard architecture.

if anyone should feel fucked... its us... 60 bucks for a game, 85-100 for collectors additions that are thrown together or just flat out worthless... i dont know about you but last time i checked my wallet doesnt spawn cash everytime i open it.. -_-'

but yeah the developers argument is truely irrelevant. if it were the dreamcast 2 and everyone had one they would be developing like crazy but since it aint happened yet they gotta deal with what works and right now 360 and wii have the install base around world that is just a little more than sony does...

ceo comes down and basically says... suck it up and make games for the most released system and that's the end of that.

@El-Suave: Agree. I like Devil May Cry 4 but i don´t love it, Lost Planet is a half assed game that´s not even fun and RE5 is a great game that was released 4 years late and ergo doesn´t keep up to modern stardards.

Unfortunately, seems Takeuchi is the new Capcom "Golden Boy" so it´s a matter of time he directs every Capcom game, instead of more talented people...Oh wait, i remember, most of that people are now in Platinum Games and other places...

Daniel Pizarro Sánchez

In the end all the problems with the PS3 come down to money. Given unlimited time and budget I'm sure that almost all developers could make amazing games on any platform. But, this is the real world and unlimited time and budgets do not exist.
I'm sure a lot of Japanese developers aren't all that happy, because last gen they could support the PS2 exclusively because there was no real competition. Now the Japanese devs are forced to come out of their comfort zone and support multiple consoles in order to recoup their costs.

thatcreepyguy

@sereal: Agreed there are lousy developers out there, in all fields of software development, but they never got into development for the love of it to begin with. Those types of developers will remain low paid grunt workers forever or just get pushed out of the industry completely and be forced to work on projects which require less knowledge and expertise and don't require optimal performance.

I would call them bad developers. They are not lazy, they just suck. They have no passion for their craft. They got into it for the wrong reason: money.

Ultimately I like to believe people like that get weeded out of the industry and only those that are truly passionate about their craft remain. But I know there will always be a population of bad developers, who can't even pass the FizzBuzz test out their in the wild.

krynn

@Valkrin: it's not a big deal to know about the client and server lol. Are you like a java script /php programmer lol?

sereal

@Valkrin: Stop being arrogant, despite your experience, you don't sound like you know what your talking about at all and are just throwing around big words to try and look smart.

I don't know what you know, but your making a terrible impression of your self.

sereal

@kreepmode: OXM vs PSM review scores. More reviwers reviewed the 360 version of the game. PS3 d-pad for PS3 version of SFIV.

Dylon Detha Nolte

@djchump: Many game developers are lazy, they don't want to learn how to program new things. You get that all threw out the computer industry. Many of the programmers out there just know how to do what they learned in uni or collage, they don't know how to learn new things, they want to work at the top level, and have no value of memory or optmization. So yea, a lot of developers can't be bothered to work hard they want a easy job.

sereal

@ViceOfFire: you forgot games are considerably more complex nowadays as well.

@MaxDragon7 - Zombie Kotaku Outbreak!!!: and Demon's Souls! Which compared to ninja blade - although different genres - is like 100x better...

wazzzup16

@Mokon: I know, but I can hope. Right?

@ViceOfFire: Ever played online browser games? Like Ikariam? They work in your browser and store all the data in server. Do you think that making a game that runs in a browser doesn't involve knowledge of HTTP? It certainly requires understanding of HTTP sessions, because that is what must be used for log ins.

How about when your game fetches a high scores list from a remote server. Your game automatically downloads patches from a remote server.

There are plenty of examples of HTTP being used in conjunction with games. If you can't think of how HTTP can be leveraged in games then I can't help you.

I don't care if you believe me, my goal is not to prove my skills to you. You are completely off base calling developers lazy. You have no empirical evidence. Your opinion carries no weight since you know nothing about software development.

I can't walk into a hospital and start calling a brain surgeon lazy. How the hell would I know? I am not qualified to make that judgment. Only another doctor of equal or greater skill can watch the surgeon perform and then identify any occasion in which the surgeon took a short-cut that endangered the patients life. That would be negligent and lazy. But like I said only another skilled surgeon could identify such an act.

You are not a software developer. You can't make any judgments.

krynn

@xone9: Not in Japan, which is where he cares about. Seriously, read the article

lulfas

@n00b_pwner:

@okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under):

I have to agree here with okenny. Just how long was Killzone 2 in development? Get a talented team and give them that much time to come up and polish something and there you go. I'm pretty sure if there was a competent port of Killzone 2 it would still run no problem on the 360 though.

@Valkrin:

How dare you imply that opportunity cost is a deciding factor in development! HOW DARE YOU!

You get your sound logic out of my Kotaku.

LaneWinree

@ViceOfFire:

No, I want you to cite your sources that prove that the devs bitching (as you so eloquently put it) have been blown out of proportion. Good luck with that.

Good God, you really like the strawman argument, don't you?

LaneWinree

@LaneWinree:
Sources for devs bitching about PS3 being hard to develop for? There are a few articles here on Kotaku.

They don't have infinite time and resources, but that's where I think things get blown out of proportion. They would rather not learn a whole new infrastructure, because 360 is easier for them. So I think in translation, how hard the cell is to work with gets exaggerated. I mean, if we see amazing games on PS3, it's not like it's an impossible feat.

@Valkrin:
I do not believe that you "make software for a living". What I meant specifically was what does HTTP have to do with GAMES development, in my previous post.

And by research I mean that for a large portion of my life I wanted to be a 3d modeler, and researched the whole development pipeline, a whole lot. I honestly don't care if you believe me. All you've done is blown all of my points out of proportion and used them to try and cut me down.

ViceOfFire

Oh no, you have to think globaly! No wonder japan is failing in the industry.

@ViceOfFire: As for whether games get developed for the PS3 or 360, that decision is up to management and not software devs. Management decides what is the most COST EFFECTIVE way to build software. Everything has a cost and time is a resource.

If software devs were given all the time in the world they definitely would optimize for the PS3. Its not a matter of laziness on the developer its a matter of time, resources and return on investment.

Developing for 360 or cross platform vs optimizing for PS3 does not imply laziness.

krynn

@ViceOfFire:

"They are less willing to code for it because they have an easier option, which leads to blowing the actual difficulty of the PS3 infrastructure out of proportion, IMO. I acknowledge that it would be hard, but not enough to justify bitching about as some have done."

Start citing your sources, otherwise none of us are going to give two shits about what you say.

The difficulty of being a developer increases every generation as the consumer market shifts and demands more and more from their games. If you think developers today are lazier than they have been in previous generations, you're a damn fool.

There is no debate about the relative difficulties of coding for the PS3 versus the PC/360. It is easier and more efficient for developers to work with Microsoft's platform, but here's the thing:

That doesn't make them lazy.

Developers don't have infinite resources and infinite time to create games. They've got stockholders to please and publisher timeframes to work with. As it turns out, coding for a platform with a steep difficulty curve like the PS3 tends to conflict with some of these restrictions. That's not the developer's fault.

LaneWinree

@ViceOfFire: Researched. Hahaha. I call bullshit. What did you do read articles about other game devs talking about how difficult PS3 development is? That is not research. Do you know anything about software engineering? Have you read The Mythical Man Month. Have you built software with over half a million lines of code? Have you worked till midnight getting your code ready for a production release? I don't think so.

What does HTTP have to do with it? You don't know anything do you? Its just an example to demonstrate that you don't even know the basics of how ANYTHING works. All the software which runs on the web, you know shit like Facebook and this very fucking site you are on require the developer to understand how HTTP work. You need to know its a stateless protocol, that is why all the state needs to be managed on the server side. The point is you are an ignorant person talking about something they know nothing of. Game developers need to know how HTTP works and a gazillion other things. It is a multidisciplinary field. You think that game devs only need to know about the PS3 and how to make graphics to make games like WOW or MAG? That requires understanding of network protocols and many other fields that you don't even know exist.

I am a software developer. I make software for a living. I know what I'm talking about. You are not qualified to judge whether a person is lazy when you are not an expert at the field. You cannot spot a shoddy/lazy software development unless you are a software developer.

And as a matter of fact I am a game developer so fuck off.

Get a degree in Computer Science and then get 10 years of experience in the field. Then you might have something intelligent to say that I might want to listen to. Until then you are just one of the unwashed masses bitching about shit they can't even begin to understand.

[www.virtualschool.edu]

krynn

@n00b_pwner: What you are seeing with Killzone 2 is polish. It's not that a 360 game can never look that good, I personally think that if you gave a talented team that much time on an exclusive 360 title, they will come out with something much more polished then Killzone 2. The thing about 360 games is that they have shorter development cycles but given the level of polish that shows up in later games (PGR4, Forza 3, GoW/2, etc...), it seems like developers get the bells and whistles in in later games. Look at Mass Effect 2, It looks better, it runs better, and is generally way more polished in terms of game control and mechanics (all from early impressions) so it's really a time issue and not a power issue otherwise games would progressively look and run worse with each release.

Fair comment I'd say. It's a vicious cycle with the 360 in Japan, if a couple of great games were made for the 360, the install base would leap up. However it's always the much safer route to develop for the PS3, as it's already got a large install base over there.

Enyzam

I'm dissapointed at the lack of "That's what she said" jokes in response to "This hardware is deep!"

OnLegendary86

@Valkrin:
What the fuck does HTTP have to do with software development? And, I have researched extensively software development.

My point was not that devs are too lazy to develop for PS3, but that they are lazier this gen than others, opting to develop primarily on 360 for multiplat, and not optimizing for PS3. I never once said they were lazy, I used a relative term. So please get off your high horse.

They are less willing to code for it because they have an easier option, which leads to blowing the actual difficulty of the PS3 infrastructure out of proportion, IMO. I acknowledge that it would be hard, but not enough to justify bitching about as some have done. Game developing and making use of devkits given them is their job, am I correct? Now considering how Sony helps out devs if they have trouble with something, and the amount of amazingly well made First party exclusives on the PS3, I guess I just fail to see where it is as bad as you all say.

Oh and I'm sure that for all your "you don't know about game developing blah blah", could you really say you've worked with the PS3 yourself?

ViceOfFire

@ViceOfFire:
You should probably, I don't know, understand something about programming before you type something next time. You do not understand the complexity involved. You think you do, you do not. Bending over backwards for fucked up architecture just to get the same visuals as an easier to develop for platform doesn't mean developers are lazy, it means they're not masochists.

Mommar

this guy does realize the 360 has a shit load of users right?

xone9

@ViceOfFire: I bet you aren't a software developer. You probably know nothing about software development or computers for that matter. You don't know the difference between little endian and big endian. You probably don't even know what the fuck HTTP stands for. So if I were as ignorant as you about what is actually involved in building software I would keep my ignorant mouth shut. Remember no one knows your an idiot if you keep your mouth shut.

Lazy, my ass. Software developers, and Game developers especially are some of the hardest working people in any industry. They work long hours with little reward. It is a labor of love and passion. When you work 10-12 hours a day for years making a game and get zero recognition for it, you are not by any means considered lazy.

krynn

Funny how From Software has made 3 exclusive 360 titles. They keep coming back for some reason.

PoltergeistXIII

@Fengato: Both games are rated higher on the PS3...how'd that happen?

kreepmode

@Ice-nine froze my baby: It used to be that a japanese company could make a game for the PS2 and know that it wouldn't take any major tweaks to release in any other region. Now, with the a different console leading in the different markets, it is a little more difficult.

@Fengato: What did the article have to do with PS3?

Mokon

@Salen: Xbox Originals is done... unless the next (last) game on XBO is metal Wolf Chaos you'll never see it.

Mokon

@ShimodaNexus: Agreed. 4 and 4 Answer were both pretty damn fun. Combat was easy, fast, smooth, and missile-spam-tastic! It's what AC should have been.

So I read the negative as not so much about the hardware, but about the small install base. So people saying "See ps3 > 360!!!" please shutup.

@Adrian Jackson: I'd like to disagree on the AC games. I didn't LIKE AC in the PS1/PS2 days because the controls and I didn't get along (understatement of the year). 4 and 4 Answer had these fully customizable controls, and I LOVED it. My friends and I make schematics and use 'em in multiplayer all the time.

And the most recent Tenchu for Wii was actually FUN for a-
Wait, I'm pretty sure From Software didn't do that one....*ahem*

ShimodaNexus

This reminds me of the PS3 when it 1st came out oh its to hard but then you get a game like Ratchet & Clank/ Uncharted then ppl STFU...I thought these guys get paid to do this job didn't they tell them in school 'Hey this is a VERY DIFFICULT JOB' knowing them they just probably thought they were g2 be developing for the PS1 for ever and shrugged everything off.

Adrian Jackson

@gamegrump: 4 and 4 Answer weren't bad. I'm a mecha fan, and I didn't like the control scheme in the AC games until 4 came out. I'd still rather have From Software make another ACE game, but I suppose ACE 3 WAS called "The FINAL" (not that that's stopped anyone before).

ShimodaNexus

@Shinta:

Keep that confidence...cause I have played an import version...and it is indeed awesome. Best action/rpg to date as far as minute-to-minute combat is concerned. I still have to finish the game to determine whether the story is any good, but from what I played...I was pleasantly surprised...The dialogue was surprisingly good.

cornerman8

@GimmeCat: PS: Make MORE ARMORED CORE! You got it right with 4 and 4 Answer!

ShimodaNexus

That makes sense. As you learn new programing tricks and your experience increases, you can use those tricks in all of your new projects on any platform the tricks allow.

Also, the whole "small install base" for the 360 is funny to me. Developers continue to make disc games, when they can approach it from a DS/PSP perspective with a download-able title. If they keep development costs down, they can get their game out to 20 million people overnight. I guess selling discs makes more sense in Japan because the stores have to pay for all of the games they purchase at the initially agreed upon price. They can't return merchandise or use that as leverage to lower the developers' and publishers' profit.

Dear From Software,

Make a good game already!

Hey, everyone else was doing it.

@Fengato: Yeah, well, you say one thing about one console and you're automatically a fanboy. Then of course, there are people who really are fanboys and try to cover this fact up by saying "I have all of the current consoles, so I'm no fanboy!"

As if that makes a difference.

@n00b_pwner: Killzone 2's graphics are pretty overrated, imo. They're good, but they aren't that good.

Ahh so they must be blaming their Shatty games on the Xbox 360 too. Jeez is this EA jr. The reason why their games don't sell here well look at them Tenchu(NOW RUINED FRANCHISE), Armored Core(Hasn't been good since PS1/PS2 days) So when they stop throwing terrible games at us Westerners that are just horrifying to look at they can talk.

Adrian Jackson

Dear From Software: Please make an Armored Core game with all that customizability that has great gameplay. Someday, someday.

gamegrump

@Xucuroz:

Exactly what I got from that

MOB712

Hey, From Software, less bitching about the 360, more working on the next Armored Core game. Also, bring Metal Wolf Chaos to Xbox Originals, because I want to play the President of the United States in a suit of powered armor.

@trunkenmath:
Still, it can be tricky enough trying to design a multi-threaded app for a quad-core, but for an eight-core each with it's own specific use; it can be tricky to design your architecture and get it to work well I'm sure.

@Poul Wrist:
You know what, I think the PS3 probably would be better suited for a sever or compilerfarm; nice observation.

Brian Ernst

This story is really quite silly. Just compare the PS3's jerky framerate (in RE5) to that of the 360's. Some will label me an Xbot- that's up to them. I just want the best performing version of each title that I purchase. Same story with SFIV (aliasing and lower resolution win sequences on the PS3 version).

Sad but true.

Fengato

Takeuchi also said developing game on 360 is hard too.

[image.blog.livedoor.jp]

[image.blog.livedoor.jp]

Do not censor that part too.. Kotaku xbot lol.

ye0073

@Aprotosis: Cheers dude - I wasn't entirely sure what the term "second-party" meant (and it wasn't on the wikipedia page), so I didn't use it.

[en.wikipedia.org]
[stackoverflow.com]

djchump

@Cridia: You know, i don't think thats even the issue here. From Software's guy clearly said about creating games just for Japan and obviously the 360s install base is small in Japan, so they won't see a great return.

It almost sounds like he doesn't want to make games globally, which is honestly why companies like Capcom in Japan are starting to shine the most because they aren't thinking backwards.

@Plsk1n: I think Lost Planet was sublime and action-packed like a good woman.

@ViceOfFire: Now heres how i always thought of it. Before you call them lazy, think about your shoes, imagine it had a pair of laces for each eye hole. Now does it make you lazy for saying its harder to tie then the shoes with velcro? Of course not, so of course you'd be welcome to say its "harder"

AFcakey

@djchump:
I agree with the spirit of this post but some factual information is wrong. Insomniac Games would be considered a Second-Party publisher. They are wholly privately owned, but every game they make is fully funded by Sony and Sony owns the IP. Saying Insomniac isn't owned by Sony is the same as saying a corrupt cop isn't owned by the mob. May not work for em, but we know who writes the checks.

Aprotosis

@Derangel: RE5 is a blast for me.. Here is my experince with Lost Planet..

Capcom styled Interfaces.. a crappy one at it>Cutscene in room> you in the middle of snow>interface>cutscene in room> snow. And most of the time I was pretty lost with what I should do. I hope they make that game transition more friendly in Lost Planet 2.

Plsk1n

@dev: I gotta agree. djchump's right on this. It's not laziness. Devs work their asses off to make these games, and bringing up some old games from 10 years ago is a bullshit comparison.

Back then the overhead for games is nothing like what it is today. The physics, the texture and model detail, the more intense engines and effects like HDR, depth of field, and so on that are all expected in every game... It's lightyears beyond those old games and it takes a lot of time to make a new engine that can hold up to all the bells and whistles that are commonplace. It also takes a lot of time, money, and manpower to make the actual games.

I could probably get 5 other people together on GameDev.net and we could crap out Wolfensetin3D in no time. The same could not be said for GTA4.

stupid_mcgee: uber pyro > flaming hunter ([k])

@Cimo: Insomniac aren't owned by Sony, so they aren't first-party. However, they are very talented, only develop for Sony platforms and have close support from Sony (that they've built up over the years working on PS1, PS2 and PS3 games).

[www.insomniacgames.com]

The distinguishing feature is that developers that have the luxury of concentrating on a single platform will always get better performance on it than a team that has to support multiple platforms, all other things being equal (e.g. dev time, budget, size of the team, etc.)

djchump

Nice to see the Japanese devs still treating the 360 as foreign and alien hardware.

"Ohmygosh! It's so deep! I thought DMC 4 tapped all it's potential"

Has any DMC EVER tapped ANY kind of potential!?

@Poul Wrist: It is really powerful, but what people don't understand is that its not because of the 8 cores. Rather its because each of the 8 cores are really good at doing a certain thing(rather than the general purpose cores of most multi core chips). This means a complete rethinking of design which companies just have not grasped yet.

trunkenmath

@Lebensbaum: Well most Japanese folks will chose the PS3 version because that's all it's coming out on in Japan?
360 doesn't have enough penetration over there to even bother with a Japanese version.

@[en.wikipedia.org] for a full list.

@djchump: The other problem is that developers get most of the blame when something goes wrong, despite being at the mercy of their publishers most of the time. When there aren't enough resources to make a game better, it's not usually because they were lazy; it's because there's only so much money to go around.

spannu

@Guild_Navigator: The problem is that, especially in current day industry, working in such a way is extremely risky. If the game happens to flop, no matter how good it is, it is not unreasonable for the entire company to go belly up. And if suddenly "making what they want to make" changes into "choosing whether to make money or go bankrupt", they tend to get a little careful.

Cridia

So From's main concern is that the Xbox 360 isn't really hard to develop for but they actually need to take a global market into consideration when they make a game?

Yeah that sounds like a problem with them and their inability to adapt rather than any specific problem with the 360.

@feitclub: He means that the Japanese markets prefer Wii to PS3 and that their games won't sell on 360 there as they would in North America or Europe.

If Japan would love the Xbox brand someday because it sells, I wouldn't be surprised if MS bought Capcom out. It seems to be one of the oddest things this generation that nobody was really expecting.

Dear From Software;

Please stop spending time with interviews and work on a Demon's Souls DLC! I want more dungeons ASAP!

@Lebensbaum: It might even be multiple blu-ray discs. It's going to be huge.

Shinta

@djchump: Yea you are right, is Insomniac one of those too?

Cimo

Now when he says "difficult," does he mean the Japanese "difficult" which translates into "we could do it but we just won't?" Or does he simply mean it's hard?

I wish someone like Square would put all of their efforts into making a 360 game that would blow Japanese crowds away. Maybe FFXIII will use the hardware to its full potential (I heard there will be multiple discs like Lost Odyssey), but even then most Japanese gamers will probably choose the PS3 version.

The 360 surprised me too. I thought that only third party games looked better because of the PS3's coding being too hard. Now I know that is clearly not the case as the 360 is just as powerful, or in some respects, more powerful than the PS3.

But then again, I don't think Killzone 2 would even run on a 360 at a stable framerate. Only time will tell when a game on 360 would look as good as that.

@djchump: I side with djchump on this one - anyone who calls developers lazy because they consider the PS3 complicated to work on is an extremely ignorant person.

Most if not all programmers working on the AAA titles released for either PS3 or 360/PS3 are people who could be working math in a lot of other engineering fields besides games if they wanted to. If they can't figure out how to make something work like they want it to - or find a solution to a problem they have with the hardware at hand - believe me when I say that it is not a question of laziness.

It is a sad thing that consumers have become so ignorant and spoiled that they not only believe the marketing hype that the hardware companies (as well as the hardcore fans) are spewing about the potential of the hardware - they even expect it now, now, NOW:

Of course no one is milking the machine to it's limit - just like Chrono Trigger wasn't the first game on the SNES, nor will the most impressive game released for ANY console likely be a release title, or even in the first waves of games - It's not a question of laziness. It's a question of experience and understanding how to get the most out of the resources at hand.

And such things takes time.

@Cimo: The difference with NAughty Dog and Guerilla is that they're both first-party developers wholly owned by Sony who make games only for the PS3.
Don't get me wrong, they both have extremely talented teams and are exceptionally accomplished studios (Naughty Dog even creates large portions of the PS3 tools that are included in the SDK for other developers to use) - but they have the advantage of being single-platform devs that work very closely with the hardware teams.

djchump

@Shinta: That's the real problem. You ever go into a big department store a few years ago and wonder why they were running DOS? It was simply a waste of money to write modern code when older stuff was good enough. Programs on PCs (of which consoles are really a subtype) only try to utilize new processing features if the CPU is their bottleneck, which generally isn't the case, making it much more profitable to not research those techniques.

spannu

@psycoking: I think they also put out Tenchu now that I think of it. Every reviewer out there loves to tear it to pieces, but it doesn't matter to me. A new Tenchu game is always a day one purchase for me, as Tenchu Z was. Pretty much the only game out with stealthy ninjas. Kind of ridiculous when you think of it. It's like video game companies don't like money.

Shinta

@ViceOfFire: Lazy? How so? You think we're sitting on beanbags twiddling our thumbs instead of developing for the PS3? You think, with the already infamous amount of crunch, overtime and burnout in the games industry, that somehow developers just "can't be bothered" to work hard?

FUCK OFF.

djchump

@Shinta: Played Demon's Soul at E3. I got to play through most of the first level. The control scheme is kind of odd - its all shoulder buttons just like Mirror's Edge - and takes some getting use to, but its a whole lot of fun. The online features are interesting too.

psycoking

@Cimo: And Sega lol. I still think Valkyria Chronicles is the best exclusive on PS3.

Shinta

@MaxDragon7 - Zombie Kotaku Outbreak!!!: I'm Pretty sure Takeuchi might be a common surname in Japan. I could always be wrong though. They could be brothers for all I know.

@Derangel: As for Lost Planet. It has its issues, but it wasn't a bad game. The story was kinda crap, but story has never been Capcom's strong point.

Derangel

@ViceOfFire: Agreed luck we still have those developers like Naughty Dog, Guerilla etc.. and you can se the diference.. the games they make are great

Cimo

@ViceOfFire: I was just saying this to a friend a bit ago. Developers these days are far more lazy than they used to be. Remember Descent II? Remember the Earthshaker Missile? Yeah, nothing like that is present in games anymore. Graphics and cinematics have taken place of minute detail and depth.

@Sloopydrew: I liked RE5 more than RE4. A hell of a lot more actually. Then again, that is probably because of the co-op and me simply liking it is a huge improvement over my thoughts on RE4.

Derangel

@ViceOfFire: Maybe because it's not actually very efficient hardware for games programming, but rather a nice bit of work for a server or compilerfarm...

Poul Wrist

@Shinta: "Powerful as hell" yet renders it's games at such low resolutions and uses scaling chips to make it "HD". The xbox does the same, mind... but meh.

Poul Wrist

@ViceOfFire: I don't know if it's lazy, it's also that in the gen when Sony made it most difficult to develop for, the cost of games also hit it's all time high. One bad game can literally ruin a studio now. It costs millions. Add to that, the smaller install base, and you have a few companies deciding it's not worth the risk/investment.

Shinta

I am wondering whether Jun Takeuchi and Masanori Takeuchi are related. I see hints in the article that they may not be, like 'Different folks, different strokes'.

I'm just making sure here! At least 'double-sure'. :P

@NitroAML:

He probably means that Devil May Cry was a repetitive, back-tracking retread and Resident Evil 5 was a horribly disappointing action remake of the far superior Resident Evil 4. I won't even get into Lost Planet.

@Shinta:
See, I understand that having 8 cores would make it hard etc etc.. But in past gens, devs would work with what they had. Seriously, just because the 360 framework is pretty much developing for a PC, devs have gone "PS3's too hard, cbf".

Now PS3 might be considerably harder, but devs also seem considerably more lazy. And learning to develop for a new system used to be an exciting boundary-pushing experience. I think devs are definitely more lazy.

ViceOfFire

@Guild_Navigator: Not to mention, out side of a few games, their Mecha titles have been excellent. Outside of them, pretty hit and miss. The King's Field series is utterly terrible. While people seem to really like Otogi (haven't played them, so can't say). Enchanted Arms was....Well, it wasn't terrible. That is the nicest way I can put it. While Demon's Souls is getting a lot of praise.

Derangel

It must really bring a developers' piss to a boil to be developing the same game twice.

A single platform really is inevitable.

@Bernoulli: I thought it was a typo at first, but then I remembered, "Oh yea, Ninja Blade!".

Sometimes things like this can just fly past us. ..Or just me. :P

@Guild_Navigator: I'm pretty confident that Demon's Souls is great. Can't wait to get it in October. Otogi looked neat and was awesome for that alone, but the gameplay was seriously lacking compared to modern action games.

Shinta

@rich8606: I think it's pretty conclusive. It's powerful as hell, yes it's good. But, it's extremely difficult to develop for, and several top level companies still struggle to make games work well on the system, increasing the cost to develop. It also has the lowest global install base of the three.

Shinta

@Shinta: On the other hand, Demon's Soul actually looks kind of nifty. Of course I'm holding out for Otogi 3.

@El-Suave: They are both Takeuchi's. Care to specify?

I think what he's really trying to say is, Ninja Blade was a piece of shit game and it's difficult to sell it to anyone.

Shinta

Too bad people just can't work on games that they think would be sweet and let the world judge later. Oh well, time for a bacon sandwich.

From software is such an awkward name.

Damn. When I read Vs. I thought this was going to be some kind of duel to the death where the two developers stood on top of 360s and duked it out with chainsaws and ninja blades.

At least the hardware is deep when Takeuchi's games aren't.

El-Suave

And everybody still disagrees whether PS3 is a good hardware or not...

rich8606