Co-Op Metroidvania Anyone?

@(Zombie) Jolan: Fridays. Last week was a holiday so I didn't have one.

Hadn't heard anything on this game until reading this story. Definitely on my radar now! The backtracking nature of the Metroid/Castlevania type of game and their reliance on specific power ups to access specific areas seems like it would prove nigh impossible to create a coherent experience for both players. I wouldn't have the first clue how to cram them into a fun game of this style, but here's a few gameplay gimmicks that could kick potential ass were they done right: - time-window based co-op, reminiscent of the Matrix movies (and ugh....Enter the Matrix), where one player must disable some sort of security grid or power plant while the other sneaks into some previously impenetrable base. -Limited communication with your partner in certain areas of the game a' la Aliens, Dead Space, Gears of War, or any game played on Playstation Network. - requiring Power Ranger/Chrono Trigger-style combo attacks to take on certain baddies (unnecessarily long power-up sequence included!) Just having another game of this kind suits me just fine, co-op or not. It sounds like an amazing concept, but unless its tip top and just as fun as single player, I'd rather them maintain focus on 1up play!

Robbie Jones

@fuchikoma: You could also include some kind of option that lets view the other player. Perhaps some kinda of floaty camera that you can send to follow them. Then you just pull up a lil screen when you're in safe spot and see what they are doin.

Castlevania: Portrait of ruin actually had excellent multiplayer, althought it wasn´t implemented in the actual campaign, it was a co-op mode that you could choose in Boss Rush. I had loads of fun with that, maybe they could do something of the sorts in this one? It´s still good to see someone with genuine excitement for a 2Dgame (2.5 but yeah, you know what i mean), they are all but gone these days.

Personally I'm glad it's not co-op as it sounds like it would be co-op only if it was, and that just doesn't appeal to me.

Flyhawk

@laser beams: Yeah, Bionic Commando: Rearmed kinda beat them to the punch there. Finally got to play the co-op with a buddy couple weeks ago. That is a completely different experience.

bizarrosparks

Is anyone else excited that it is based off an Orson Scott Card book? I loved Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, and Metroid. This is just the next emanation of a great style of play. This is a first minute buy for me!

@Juan José Méndez Gallardo: That is completely right. I just meant that a lot of the "Starred" say tons of stuff that isn't any better than the rest of us, and by making it a little more difficult to get a star, might not be a bad thing.

BlueToast

@Juan José Méndez Gallardo: I agree with you, normally brands always try to become the one that represents the hole market in their respective area, for example some other brands that got that spot here in Latin America are kotex and people(old generations mostly) usually call video games "nintendo" its a sweet spot that makes your brand recognizable and accepted like it means that you are the king.

It works really good with Trine it would be grate to put some extra effort for some good co-op online and offline. but it wont happen.

@fuchikoma: love that idea. Commo will be scarce until you get a good walkie-talkie. Unless of course you're on the cell phone with him in the real world.

Mr. Lonely Chaser

Wow, just the notion of a game like this being Co-Op is awesome. Holding off a bunch of endless spawing robots while you're "teammate" has to find a the robot control panel located in the other side of the map sounds like fun. Not if he dies on his way there of course.

Mr. Lonely Chaser

@Psudonym: That's one helluva post. But you raise some interesting points. I think co-op could work for this type of game, but the levels would have to be specifically designed to support it. The Four Swords, for example, is a game that you're always playing with four characters, even if you're on your own. I guess a Metroidvania co-op game would have to be more like The 3 Vikings or something (not that I ever played that game). You should be able to control both characters when you're playing by yourself, to solve the co-op puzzles that the level is designed for. Of course, this would more or less take away from the pure single player experience, but the multiplayer experience would be greatly improved.

Showmeyomoves!

@Showmeyomoves!: Better yet, undead metroid that suck life and can use it reanimate dead corpses. And let us not forget a half-death/half-Ripley boss.

@TaggarT6: You forgot the blood-sucking metroids. They turn into bats!

Showmeyomoves!

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: That's an awesome idea. I was also thinking network co-op with voice chat, but give your characters radios in the game, so while you can go anywhere in the level, it would encourage sticking relatively close by making the reception worse and worse as you get farther apart... It would also be a way to tell that the game doesn't really expect you to solve team-based puzzles from opposite sides of the level/world...

That just wouldn't be fun. You would frequently have to wait for the second player to do something to continue, which means alot of downtime for the better player. Maybe if the player who completed his objective first can warp to the other player. If the first player instead could work on another objective and doesn't have to wait for the second player to complete his objective, it wouldn't be much of coop play anymore but two players playing seperate adventures in the same world.

PirateSquirrel

Am I the only one that isn't all that thrilled about the graphics on this thing? A realistic look on a side scroller just makes characters and enemies harder to spot, making the game look and play worse. Think about what the artists in charge of Diablo 3 said about dark, realistic looking characters: The game becomes less playable the 'browner' it gets. The main character and the enemy units, at least, should be a lot more distinctive

hibikir

I want to play this, but I don't have a 360. Could someone please recreate this game in LBP? Thanks in advance.

Showmeyomoves!

That would absolutely sell me.

@BlueToast: sounds a bit like what they did with bionic commando rearmed when they added local co-op to the singleplayer campaign. i think it could work beautifully.

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Pretty sure you just blew my mind hole all BOOM like.

@Outkastprince: Is it me or are the non-starred comments just much more entertaining than the starred commenters. This new system always greets me with a circle jerk of agreeable and enthusiastic comments - which is starting to piss me off.

diagorus

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: I guess, if you're into the sixth sense sort of thing. I personally lump that film with the rest of shamalama's heap of dripping hot trash

diagorus

@Derek Rumpler: What would the loss be about having your company's name be part of the language? At least in Latin America, Coca Cola is the most popular soft drink ever and even if it's a Pepsi, people will just call it Coca. I haven't seen The Coca Cola Company have any problems with that =/ if anything, I think it gives you a lot of brand recognition (is that the correct term?)

Juan José Méndez Gallardo

The abilities of the developer to provide an engaging experience aside, co-op requires an entirely different play style from your players. When you think of the great co-op games, very rarely do you imagine a puzzler. A better model to look at instead of Castlevania or Metroid would have to be The Legend of Zelda: The Four Swords. With any co-op, the notion of someone butting in and interrupting your progress is irksome to say the least. Even LittleBIGPlanet there are groans when someone wants to do the little tiny thing required to sole the co-op mini puzzles. Proper teamwork is rare and in many cases, rarely sought after. Most people preferring to engage in simpler more straightforward tasks like killing the most zombies or punching the most street punks. Four Swords broke the mold by making that same infighting between players an asset. Reveling in the riotous fun to be had to grief your best friends. And it managed to balance that out with the very important fact that, you ride together and you die together. The puzzles were always insurmountable alone, and there were enough points to collect to encourage the kind of co-opetition that somehow engenders no animosity. Seeing that same spirit applied to a Metroidvania game, would obviously require some different concessions to the genre. But there are some very obvious ways to approach that. One could be required to manage a difficult platform/puzzle segment and the other player protect that player from hordes of enemies. Or two players must manage to trigger something requiring two characters to activate. There is simply one thing that the spirit cannot concede, and that's going it alone. The moment you spin off and expand in completely different directions, you begin to loose the sense of playing together. Even if you were solving puzzles at one end, it'd be like trying to telephone your buddy how to fix their sink. It's no where near as handy as being able to hand them the wrench yourself. Just look at Toe Jam and Earl, or more recently Crackdown. It's fun to play with friends, but dynamically you're still just about playing your own separate games. Too long, didn't read, smarter minds than mine may be able to over come the trials. But the places you should be looking for inspiration are less obvious.

Psudonym

@BlueToast: For me, star commentators were people with an insight that might interest you, but that's about it. They were there to make you try to start a discussion, not to make my comments important or even visible.

Juan José Méndez Gallardo

I personally don't see anything wrong with a co-op version of this game. You got to remember that "Castlevania - Portrait Of Ruins" was the first game that experimented with this kind of gameplay. The problem with these kinds of co-op games is that there is a lack of the use of co-op. When I say the lack of co-op, I mean that you actually NEED your partner to help you. Most co-op games feel like contra where your team mate is helpful but the game can be easily be played solo. The "Silent Filter" games went in a better direction where your teammate was essential to complete puzzles but it always felt that you had someone to watch your back. {Another fair example would be Resident Evil 5.} Gears of war split the co-op group away but all you did was perform a "Point A-to-B" movement. When I think of a co-op game, I see that there are tons of objectives that can be done in almost any order. There will be times where you will want to meet up but for the most part, you will be on your own. One great example for a co-op game is "Dynasty Warriors." In Dynasty Warriors, you tend to split up to perform different functions but there will be times where help will be essential. Without a good partner, the mission becomes quite hard. All in all, I guess what I'm trying to say is that co-op game shouldn't act like an extra life/weapon. It should feel like 2 players aimed for the same goal, yet to perform such tasks, each player may perform his or her own objectives.

I sincerely wish that this game was coming to PSN. It looks solid.

azriel11

Hey isn`t that boss robot suppose to be invisible? ...

kadjin

@Juan José Méndez Gallardo: I kind of agree with you on the comment discouraging, but I really only think it would discourage "casual commentators". And I suppose it would make Becoming a starred commentor a more difficult, but I don't know if that's a bad thing.

BlueToast

@(Zombie) Goldwings: Eh, if they can do something where you need to split up and solve something simultaneously (like the sometimes gimmicky "I open a door for you, you turn off a trap for me" they do in some co-op games), it might add some complexity to backtracking and puzzles, or at least make the timing more difficult.
Which of course might just make puzzle solving annoying...hm.

kagekiri

Does anyone remember that Castlevania trailer with Alucard and his red eyes? What happened to that game? Also: I'm REALLY not trolling (I always feel I need to be clear about that in this place), but if I post in the Star Power thread, my post will only get lost in a sea of non-star posts. I've been following Kotaku for more than 2 or even 3 years now and got banned twice (one for saying I think Jamzy was stupid and annoying and another for saying that if Bash had translated a interview wrongly, then maybe the whole thread was a shitstorm for nothing - I've always thought those were kinda stupid reasons... oh well). This new system I think is just awful... there's too much unused space to the right, news will now need us to scroll down a lot more, comments by new users are being discouraged, and, well, it's only good if you actually have a star and know HTML (I don't have any of those things).

Juan José Méndez Gallardo

Metroidvania Synapsis: Its the distant future and Dracula is accidentally released from his prison aboard an ancient space ship by a patrol of Space Pirates. Hungry for power once more, Dracula turns the crew into the latest recruits for his new undead army, and then sets a course for the Pirate Homeworld which he plans to take over and use as his new base/castle. Unbeknown to Dracula, the ancient Space Ship has sent out a distress beacon alerting an ancient religious Order stationed on a distant planet. The Order must now set forth their champion to put right that which has been freed. Meanwhile, a lone bounty hunter on her way back from her latest bounty intercepts the message and decides to investigate. :D

@excaliburps: It doesn't have to make boss fights easier. Since they are already throwing the idea of have puzzles where the people have to do things in tandem, why not do the same with bosses? Where one player has to take down the shield and the other has to position himself in a way that allows him to capitalize on it. Think of a really small scale raid where everybody has to do there role or the raid fails. I think it could be very interesting if done properly.

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Afterwards, you can spike a football and shout out your rally cry "In ur face!!!". I was thinking more that it's somewhat similar to Ico where you have to help your defenseless friend through some sort of enchanted forest or maze.

You know, this might be slightly off topic, but I wonder if the use of the word "Metroidvania" could raise some serious IP issues in the future. For example, Kleenex discourages people using "kleenex" to refer to any type of tissue. And Google doesn't like the verb "to google". These reasons are because their IP can become part of the English language and (I think) the public domain. I don't know if games have the same problem, because they're not as popular as search engines or tissues, but I wonder if overuse of terms such as "Metroidvania" could start new genres and thus dilute the IPs they were originally based off of (Castlevania and Metroid). Afterall, Nintendo did sue some scientists for calling a virus "Pokemon". Anyone agree or disagree?

@Outkastprince: Hmm. That could work. But in that sense it wouldn't really be co-op is it? Also, how will they work item management and item/health drops? Like in RE5 wherein the gold is shared automatically? This is certainly an interesting concept. I hope the game is up to snuff. I would get it if it was. Just to have more games like this and hopefully spawn a sequel with the co-op. I mean it's a bit too late to implement it now unless they're already doing it...

excaliburps

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: that doesn't sound too appealing

@Stephen Totilo: ah, well I guess that is a little more complex then the impression I originally got.

@chuffhoncho: Definitely agree. That term only applies to Castlevania games that copy Metroid. I think it's misinformative when a game that takes the Metroid formula (if this is indeed the case) is called a "Metroidvania" game.

Dear Chair Entertainement, OCP is calling and they would like their giant robot back.

kthankxbai

@All: All those games are fast paced. Except maube the new Mario game coming out. I just can't see how a Metroid-esque game can work with 2 people on the same screen without dumbing down elements like puzzle solving, exploration and back tracking.

@BlueToast likes parenthises.: metroid/castlevania means that the game has a single giant map with lots of backtracking, instead of a set of levels

mutedia

so when is this coming out?

Black_STAR

@chuffhoncho: How about Controid then?

Or maybe "Metroidtra"?
"Contravania"?
"Castletroid"?
"MetalConSlugCastleMetravaniatra..."?

@[ZTF]NSF Operative: They're suggesting splitting up to solve puzzles though, which I'm not sure I've seen in side-scrollers. Most force you to stay together.
Edit: Doh, I forgot, LOZ Four Swords does this, thought technically it isn't a side-scroller (it's isometric...I think).

kagekiri

@Mit: Isn't that why the PC has a keyboard? If players of the PC version don't have mics, then I'm sure in game chat will suffice.

@chuffhoncho: There is always Castletoid. :p

Unoriginal username is unoriginal

@(Zombie) Goldwings: so you never owned a console older than a nintendo 64, did you?

awesomemonster

@Malfunktion v2: well played sir

@(Zombie) Goldwings: The new mario scroller game would like to take your negativity and multiply it by 4. (That equals eleventy)

@excaliburps: Maybe the key is the reward for getting the easy way out, the one who failed to get it first has to take on a big boss. They should have it that we could target each other, a little horseplay as we co-op.

it would be cool if you and some other dude worked cooperatively but are spread apart and then are forced to fight each other but unknowingly since your opponent would be an illusion of a big boss but its actually your friend who you played co-op with throughout the whole game.

It would be interesting - and perhaps even easier to execute - if the co-op characters had different move-sets, which would not only allow players to access different areas than each other, but also hint where each character should be heading at any given time. Regardless, communication would be key in such a game, so I suppose headsets would be almost essential. For now, I just hope Shadow Complex succeeds and does well, because Mustard's putting forwards a pretty intriguing idea or two here, even beyond the fact that he's making a new Metroidvania IP, itself deserving attention!

So can we now call it Controidvaniaslug?

Last year castle crashers, this year shadow complex... first day for me!

I like his idea of making you separate a lot. The only barrier in that would be that you would have to have some sort of voice communication with your partner at all times in order for it to work out. Not the biggest issue on Xbox Live, but for people who don't like speaking on the internet, they'd have to get over it in order to play it co-op.

It would have to be a different mode entirely, with a unique map and puzzles to accomodate for that style of play. I'd definitely play it though.

This game looked really neat. I'd love some co-op play. These are the kind of games that I'd rent to play through as single player, buy would buy to be able to play co-op with my bro and cousin. A few beers and a night of yelling at each other for screwing up, can't get much better then that.

MajinMexican

I'm over the word Metroidvania. Can we get past it somehow?

Somehow I get the feeling that he will get that chance. Really, really nice game he's got there.

@BlueToast likes parenthises.: I also said it looked a bit like Contra with hints of exploration mixed in. Co-op would be nice. But I wonder how the hidden items,areas would come into play. I mean if one of the players has more items or has that item to get to certain areas, then what will happen to the other one? Certainly an interesting thought. Would make boss fights a lot easier I expect.

excaliburps

@(Zombie) Goldwings: Gunstar Heroes...? Metal Slug...?

[ZTF]NSF Operative

@Stephen Totilo: Second paragraph, first sentence should say think, not thing. Also when is your next notebook dump? *waits expectantly*

@(Zombie) Goldwings: It worked fine in Contra. No, it worked GREAT in Contra.

Co-Op adds alot more re-playability and fun to a game. Online Co-Op is even better.

@BlueToast likes parenthises.: Glad you brought that up. Donald addressed that. Let me update the post.

could be great! zelda 4-swords worked, so this should be somehow doable! the idea reminds me of seeing the SA-X in metroid fusion, for some reason! this is making me wish i had a 360!

This might work only if they did it ala Donkey Kong (two player) style, but other then that, I have no idea how anyone can do co-op in a 2D scroller game.

Sounds more Contra-ish than Metroid/Castelvania.

I played the demo. It's more like Out of This World or Abe's Odyssey, which makes me really excited!

@diagorus: I don't agree with the system completely since we already notice the star commenters when they post. The fact that we have to depend on a star commenter to "promote" our comment? I'm sorry but many of the non-commenters are extremely entertaining, even more so than a lot of the star commenters. Nothing against the star commenters but let's be real, some of them got that one comment of fame and than never lived up to the star afterwards.

I think "Remnants of Skystone" is an Metroidvania MMO?

Balboa555

Why don't they call this what it really is. Blow Out 2. The last two games this guy made are boring and horrendous. Undertow gets the boring vote, and Advent Rising gets the horrendous vote.

Kilos

Castlevania has already done something like this in portrait of ruin, you had 2 characters some portions of the game can only be sorted by a certaion character and other only using the two of them, the item collecting is balanced because the upgrades of one character canot be used by the other.

@fuchikoma: That'd be awesome, particularly if it was going for the slightly creepy Metroid atmosphere. Getting split up would be interesting then, particularly if the game forced it at points.