Why Female Screams And Peeing Were Cut From Postal

@Comban will Ban you.: Right after it comes: "Perhaps if you want a game as art you shouldn't be playing games. So until games stop being games I'm going to keep saying, Games ARE games, they are about having fun..."

This is a clarifying statement.

Unless you meant to say that the entirety of your rant is devoted to how people who rant about videogames being art are stupid because they can't be such, you should really express yourself more clearly.

@Draco_2k: reread, first sentence second paragraph of my previous post.
Over and over again until you think you understand it.
Then once more just to make sure.

@PSWii2008: Yeah, you could buy games based on features like that...
Or you can buy games based on whether or not they're fun to play, which is why I AM going to buy Postal 3.

@Comban will Ban you.: Why no, I did read your post, I never reply to things I haven't actually read. The best of what I got out of it is that you say games are somehow more unfit for portraying art or fiction than any other medium, which is unfounded at best and hypocritical at worst.

Although, possibly ironically, I now have to doubt if you paid attention to my own reply: again, if you're going to tell people don't care about "games are art" and call them idiots for it, you best have something to back yourself up on both points. Do you have that something?

I grant that you're confusing me a whole lot with your replies, maybe it's a misunderstanding.

@sunpop: Well, the fire only goes out if you're into watersports. If you're not turned on by it, you burn.

RyderJ

@webkatt: you can't compare GTA with postal! Pissing on your head when you in fire ? Pissing on your dad's tomb for a mission ? put a cat throught a shotgun ?

bakura

@PSWii2008: we dont care why the series is this alive, it's made with something most next-gen game dont have : FUN

bakura

How is this series still alive? Are people buying these games? Is it because of the "celebrity" cameos, like Gary Coleman? Or is it because people want to see what kind of shocking, stupid things they can do to characters? Well, whatever it is, I know I won't play Postal 3.

@Draco_2k: I have the feeling you didn't bother reading beyond the first sentence of my post. Completely understandable as I'm starting to get the impression that you would rather ignore the points made.

I'm saying the argument is stupid, the argument for "games as art" is stupid. Why is it an argument? Who is arguing?
Thats what I am attacking.
The only people arguing "games as art" are idiots on sites like this and they aren't really arguing or making an argument as much as they are circle jerking about the same topic in agreeance.
I'm saying NOONE outside of those "H4rdc0rez gam3rz" gives a shit about whether people want games to be art or not, and I agree with that.
I don't care if an incredibly tiny minority want games to be viewed as art, because frankly 99.99% of the worlds population either won't ever view it as art, or don't want to view it as art and would rather just play it as it was intended, as a game.

*pressing Q* I REGRET NOTHING *blows the head off with a shotty*

dudehuge

@Wheema: It's funny cause the release dates for Wet are September 15 for US and September 18 for UK...

I've never played this, but having read a bit about it just now, I have to say the idea that you can complete the missions merely by not going all out violent (e.g. queueing up for two hours) intrigues me. Wonder how many played that way.

So it seems that they are only edgy and pushing whats safe in a game and really being a gross out when others tell them its ok.

Isnt censoring the game going against everything that running with scissors supposedly stands for in doing postal games?

Sickens me when a company censors itself over stupid stuff like peeing but leaves all the other crap in, either its all ok or none of its ok.

i liked postal II. it was a decent fps but it was crazy as heck. it kinda like going on rampages in gta. in fact the gta series should bring back the rampages of part 1

webkatt

@pinshot: Your 25? Wow man go back to school, im dyslexic and from Sweden yet my English isn't as messed up as yours...

Mundus

So having sex with yourself puts out fire..Why did they not tell us sooner so many lives could have been saved. Also cant wait for this to come out these games are amusing.

@Comban will Ban you.: You should at least leave a sarcastic comment hinting at what the the poster did wrong if you want to sound cool rather than defeated.

Well, no, games don't *need* to be art. Neither do books or paintings. But all three very well can be given creative input and due rituals, neither of which has any regard for the amount of people working on the project: from romances to cathedrals and from Half-Life to LOVE, art can be both personal and a joint endeavor. Or, to paraphrase my original post, singling out one media as unfit for art while endorsing others is hypocritical.

Also, that's a pretty blanket statement. Where's your survey, where's your argument?

@madog: Shoulda worn a nomex jimmie cap.

@Draco_2k: I like how you miss the point, really entertaining.

@NeoStarrHD: Not saying they can't be art. Or they shouldn't be art. They don't need to be art, they don't need to serve the same purpose, and its far more unlikely they can be art due to the nature of games. Creating a game is a giant money gobbling beast of a process involving hundreds of different people with radically different goals within the design process and big publishers with lots of money who have far too much power and weight over the design process.
What I'm also saying is that NOONE cares about "games as art" other then people on sites such as these. Theres a reason for that too.

@diagorus: they enjoyed it? lol

@Alex_Mexico: ...you are aware of who made said movie, right?

Rajolae

I cant think of any particular game that's more disgusting and of poor taste than Postal.

Cant believe there's a movie about this but Im still waiting for a movie that comes from a universally acclaimed game (Uncharted).

There are a lot of violent games, and I play them, but this series is complete trash for all the reasons one can think.

Those silly british. Also stupid, cut out female screams due to the death of Princess Diana? does that mean all the british movies will have no female screaming in it? What then fuuuuh?

I still have burns on my penis from trying to hump a fire out. I never even thought of pissing...

madog

@Comban will Ban you.: My walls are covered in walls.

Mad-Hobo

@GunFlame: Hair balls ^_^.

@deanbmmv: On that note I remember reading about an incident during WWII (in the book Flying Fortress by Ed Jablonski; unfortunately I no longer have the book) where a B-17 caught some flak over Germany and one of the guys put out a fire on board by, among other things, peeing on it.

So it isn't in the realm of impossibility ^_

@CommentatorHatman:
The human body is one thing. Sex acts are another entirely.
Sex is very tied up with human psychology, and with how modern society runs (that includes places outside the USA).

There are circumstances where sex is appropriate and others where it is not. This is basically a global understanding. Unwanted sexual advances, sexual abuse, harassment, etc. I believe it's fair to take care where and how sex acts are showcased for that reason.
Most humans will participate in sex at some point in their lives. Taking part in sexual contact that is not appropriate in civilized society can destroy multiple lives. Making an effort to protect teens (who are already sexually charged) from material that could make a sexual psychological imprint, I believe, is a worthy cause.

Violence, on the other hand, is never appropriate. So any display of it is fantastical. It's not acceptable for any civilian to participate in real violence, so it's widely understood that its use in entertainment is purely fantastical.

Most humans will never kill another person. Most humans will have sex. It's as simple as that. Cases against violence are moot, in my opinion, because nobody's going to learn how to do murder "the wrong way". But sex in the wrong context is not only dangerous, but plausible.

I just hope Postal 3 doesn't need mods to make it enjoyable after the first playthrough, a la P2.

I can never play vanilla P2 again. It *has* to have A Week In Paradise installed, or I get incredibly bored.

@BlueNinjaBE: Did you REALLY have to reveal your physical shortcomings to the rest of the world with this comment?

@CommentatorHatman: Its a nation founded by puritans, what do you expect.

Spenze

@Comban will Ban you.: "...other then to put a long winded comment in hopes that it gets nominated for a week in comments..."

long-winded, eh?

@NeoStarr HD:

I agree completely, all games are art.

I'm also inclined to state that games have achieved high art, it's just that no one has stopped long enough to think about it. At the time, Impressionism and landscapes were considered low art, now a days they're seen as the epitome of it. Hell, the most influential piece of art of all time (as voted on by art historians) is Duchamp's urinal, and that thing was thrown out with the trash when the original show was taken down.

@expansionsss - the jaded gamer: THAT should be cut from the game as well.

@capillary-action: There is only one part of them that is on fire... 8 condoms couldn't save you.

@ESREVE12: R. Kelly Game of the Year candidate.

@Accordion: Or they want to see Leonardo Da Vinci in drag. There are current theories that are heavily supported with impressive evidence that both the "Mona Lisa" and the "Shroud of Turin" are, in fact, self-portraits of Leonardo Da Vinci.

bornonce

Does Postal 3 have peing? This article scared me, I thought it was about 3! ;-;

@amazinglarry: No, but you gotta admit that this sensibility to the human body is dumb as fuck.

@The_IT_Crone: Whereas in the US, anything can be a sex act, in other regions of the world, anything can be a violent act.

It's really no different, it just makes no sense either way.

@MechaTama31: To be exact, Teen is 13+ and Mature is 17+

I contend that we'd need something like MT (Mature Teen) 15+, but North America doesn't have that.

@[nerfnow.com]

Postal 2 was hilarious

Running around and pissing on people, making them vomit, then taze them so they fall down and start shaking erratically in their own vomit.... good times

@furka: Clearly sex.

@GtheMVP99: Yes we get it, everything about America is bad and wrong. Move along.

amazinglarry

@deanbmmv:

you need a piece of paper to assert your own thinking?
and you would use an example that contradicts your point just to appease the masses, how disrespectful of you

@Iarwain: But you shouldn't cross them.

@Wheema: 15 in the US? I don't think we have a rating that goes with 15. Teen would be a bit before that, and Mature is 17+.

MechaTama31

@Fernando Jorge: I believe it just hasn't been done properly yet. However, we do currently have two likely contenders on the game-making front: LOVE and Natural Selection 2. We'll see how that turns out...

Hell, Flash has been quite a success for creative types of all sorts: for all it's faults, it's simple, it's powerful, and it works.

This scared me I thought this was about Postal 3. :'( I hope P3 does not get toned down.

Cheater87

@pandafresh: Postal 1 was complete trash, I'll give you that, but I thought Postal 2 was full of poignant social commentary. I mean, it doesn't just drop you into the action and tell you to open fire the way the first one does; it actually pisses you off on its own. You don't really need to be a bad guy in that game, but it's nearly impossible not to get unintentionally involved in all these little exaggerated cultural taboo's the game presents to the point where, in the end, it practically forces you to make the decision to fight back against these things.

That said, Vince Desi should be locked up. The man is fucking crazy; just read any interview.

Also, and this is directed more @Comban will Ban you: it's pretty closed minded to not think games are capable of being art. You guys seem to have this idea that art is limited to stuff that's boring, dated, and carries prestige, and as such you both want to believe that art can't be any fun. Not all art needs to be high art; any Friday the 13th movie could be considered just as much a work of art as any Citizen Kane. Whether or not it's good art depends on what the artist puts into it, but sometimes the artist just wants to have fun too (you wouldn't wanna go from Schindler's List to Amistad without a Jurassic Park sequel in between) and that's exactly the message they'll try to convey to their audience. But it's important that we recognize all games as art because when a high-art masterpiece video game is released (*cough*nomoreheroes*cough*), experience will help us know what to make of it and give it a second though before we immediately try to pass it off as something it's not; namely "just a game", as you put it.

NeoStarr HD

@diagorus: maybe they were on fire?

@Draco_2k: yeah. You know I think gaming will forever be cursed with the barrier of technical skill keeping creative people away.

Game making tools that aim to provide anyone with the means to create a game always end up the same way: they are really easy to use but all the games made for it end up playing and looking the same or they are very flexible and allow for more possibilities, but are so hard to use you might as well just learn C++.

And then beyond coming up with a creative idea, the developer has to create sound effects, graphics, optimize gameplay, write a good story, balance the game, hunt bugs. It requires a lot of different skills.

I don't want to say that it is harder than making a movie, but I guess it is.

Fernando Jorge

@furka: Amen.

@furka: That's a sex act too. To some people.

kearneybobs

@pinshot: You're 25? Our education system has done wonders for you hasn't it?

Endzeit

@Comban will Ban you.: We can stop talking about it when we also agree that no book shall be used as a medium for fiction - as books are meant to be informative and nothing else - to avoid blatant hypocrisy.

@Fernando Jorge: Hopefully we'll see more games delving into pure creativity once or if - the game-making tools ever become publicly available and easy to use. As it stands now it's a hard feat to put together a good game without pouring thousands of dollars and work-hours into it.

@Wheema: The uk is crap...25 years of being here makes me an expert on that. Wgat kind of stupid rule says u cant purchase an extreme dvd featuring extreme stuff that requires you to show id if u underage yet you can see 2 girls 1 cup a click of a mouse.

Just ask porn star turned voice actress "rio" if peeing is a sex act ;)

@.- -. --- -. -.-- -- --- ..- ... / .. ... / .-.. . --. .. --- -.: And obvious the censorship didn't work - R Kelly still pissed all over 13 year olds.

diagorus

Also, a game like Postal shouldn't be immediately passed off as junk. If anything, it serves to push the boundries.

I for one think a game like Postal is more valuable than yet another generic FPS where you do the same things you've done in other games a million times.

Fernando Jorge

heh not really a shock - I mean WET is a 15 in the US and an 18 in the UK. It contains lots of swearing, loads of blood gunplay and violence. It's pretty extreme but thats only aa 15 in the US as it doesn't contain sex.

Pretty screwed up I feel if massive violence is considered less adult than sex... I'd say it was an 18 for both really, but that wouldn't matter in the US as you don't support ratings by law so they don't even matter!

Wheema

@deanbmmv: art is a silly word that has no meaning because everyone uses it for everything.

Basically, the word art today means "this thing has an innate superiority to other things", it is just used to label something as more important than others. And usually the ones who say what is art and what isn't are close-minded elitists trying to put a wall between them and the "commonners".

But art really is about creativity over funcionality. It is about creating things whose only value is to be sensed, not used.

Video games are art, and Iron Man is art too. I admire the CGI artists and the guys who came up with the action scenes in Iron Man, it requires talent and creativity.

I'm for the "video games should be art" idea. Yeah sounds contradictory based on what I said, but when I say I want "art games" I mean I want the medium to move beyond where it is now, just shooting or swinging a sword.

I'll always respect a game like Devil May Cry 3, just the same way I respect Matrix, Ong Bak, Rambo 4. Awesome action movies that required a lot of talent to be made. But I'd also like to have games that I respect the same way I respect a movie like Eraserhead, There Will Be Blood or Clockwork Orange.

I want different kind of stimuli. I want more games like Killer7, Katamari Damacy or Shadow of the Colossus.

Fernando Jorge

Only in the USA, Bash, only in the USA.

god, I remember playing the postal 1 beta , ages ago... it was fairly entertaining... for the time, I enjoyed that parade level... but it did get old pretty fast, there weren't really any sandbox destruction games back then.. only rpgs ( ultima series ). Postal 2 was funny for a few minutes... after you've pissed on someone, electrocuted their genitals there isn't much to do.. I can'T imagine postal 3 being any better

mutedia

@deanbmmv: The article is misleading. Peeing was not cut from Postal II as a means of putting yourself out, but Running with Scissors (the devs) did catch some flak from it as noted.

SigmaHyperion

@phicaluk: My walls are covered in soft pillows, and this jacket is kind of itchy.

@pandafresh: The "games are art" argument isn't as much of an argument as much as it is a bunch of people who sit around preaching on forums that are only visited by other similar people who preach the same stupid crap.
In fact it isn't an argument, noone knows about it except hardcore gaming obsessives. Noone cares about it in fact, except perhaps a few thousand people in existence.

I have to agree with deanbmmv, I don't understand the fascination people have with the whole "games as art" thing around here. It seems that the people who do have it as a strange goal or obsession really only ever come off as idiots who are trying to say something in order to seem intelligent.
It has become a buzz phrase around here with little more use other then to put a long winded comment in hopes that it gets nominated for a week in comments by what can only be described as the converted.
Perhaps if you want a game as art you shouldn't be playing games. So until games stop being games I'm going to keep saying, Games ARE games, they are about having fun, and guess what, a team of a few hundred people with radically different parts to play aren't really going to create something with a single artistic vision within the confines of a game, which is a medium which should be focused upon providing boundaries, rules and goals which are designed to provide fun.

Now, can we stop with this seriousness and get back to dropping funny somewhat article related jokes?

@GtheMVP99: true, man, true

@deanbmmv: More fool you - my walls are COVERED in paper!

The USA is so hilariously pervertedly-prude (that was fun to say!) if we have to teach the makers of POSTAL a new level of depravity.

I thought peeing on yourself was a hilarious way to put yourself out, especially since in South Park, Cartman calls it his "fireman."

Also, OMFGBBQ Postal is coming out for the 360?! You made today a tiny bit less miserable.

America is fucking backwards at times. Let's show violent programming, have whores as role models, share beer and liquor commercials galore, yet consider Mary Jane and M rated video games as devils!!!

GtheMVP99

@OrielOrmberg: RWS is an American developer...

@p1nCHA: When I was in History class some 9 years ago, I do remember reading that. Good eye.

Meanwhile, people are throwing jars of piss on other people and nobody comlpains.

@deanbmmv: well putting out the fire that could kill you is undoubtedly gratifying

@deanbmmv: I whipped out a small cylindrical object attached to my belt buckle and vigorously rubbed it until a white foam shot all over me, putting me out.

@Accordion: Yep, know nothing about art at all, honest bugger all. Of course the piece of paper on my wall is telling my otherwise.
I'm just assuming that most other Kotakuites don't have a piece of paper on their wall. And thus using a popular work of art rather than something obscure as an example was just their so people didn't have to whack open Google mid way through my point.

@ourovoros: Bared balled?

GunFlame

@Accordion: Was that also the case when the piece was first completed?

With your example, Piramids of Giza, Creation of Adam, St Basils Cathedral, Parthenon, Rome Colleseum, Last Super, Forbidden City et cetera, are all popular commoditys.

Just because people view it, does not remove the fact that it is art.

It is your point of view that attempts to remove it from being art.

GunFlame

JARATE!

Mechalon

@pandafresh: Imaple Gary Coleman. It is a guilty pleasure like BMX XXX.

@deanbmmv: I agree, come back the times when games were fun and expected to be so.

Don't get me wrong, I like cutscenes, music, ambience, atmosphere, game structure and design as much as the next guy, but fun gameplay is real sweet spot!

GunFlame

@pandafresh: Doesn't mean much since 90% of all things masquerading as art are shit anyway.

But yeah, I get what you mean.

@Accordion: Good point. People think what they're told to think, it's nothing new really...

...

All in all, games can be entertainment, soulless product, shit, or art just every other goddamn medium.

All and all postal were some of the crappiest games ever created, but strangely there's something satisfying about hitting people with a shovel and make their heads fly away. Still, never finished any of the games and I never ever will.

But for now, I can always annoy Americans whenever they talk about peeing, because obviously that's considered a sex act. No wonder Americans have so much sex =)

creiij

@deanbmmv:
bringing up the Mona Lisa means you dont have much understanding about art…
The Mona Lisa is widely considered the first example of popular commodity masquerading as art, people want to see becasue they are told they should…its not so different than a film like Iron Man

@pandafresh: It's a different kind of art. Red Faction: Guerilla can be labelled art in my book, for the sheer carnage and wreckage you can unleash on some poor, hapless buildings and structures.

NoHoldsBarred

I really find the American...awkwardness around sex to be rather amusing.
And the reaction of "That man is on fire and pissing on himself, he must be doing it for self gratification".
For our American readers - how did you put out fires in Postal if you couldn't piss on yourself?

@pandafresh: Why do some of the people on this site have this whole fascination with "Games as art"? rather than "Games as fun" and "games for the challenge".
Do you go n watch Iron Man because it's a work of art comparable to the Mona Lisa? no you go because its got robots n explosions in it.
Yes some games can be seen as "art" like the demoscene stuff. But damn most of us just wanna have fun. and want's more fun that killing stuff on a Segway?

@diagorus: So you've seen my work?

The Postal series gets pretty old pretty fast... but at least the games were better than the movie... my god I still don't understand why I agreed to watch that dreadful movie.

lol he's on a segway dressed as Neo

@darkos87: The Imagine series would like a word with you...

ourovoros

Who wants to bet that Postal III will include tea-bagging?

ourovoros

@Zaphod Beeblebrox the 1st: As do many movies for "movies are art" and books for "literature is art", but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't be fun if it's done right.

True, but I'd like to think pandafresh was kidding. :p

Kobun

@diagorus: This is so true.

@pandafresh: i dis agree. If a guy can shit in a jar and its considered art, then a virtual character can pee on himself to put the fire out - and should be able to sell it on ebay for thousands.

diagorus

@garrettgoodrich: you pee EVERYDAY? How disgusting - jesus is going to be very mad at this sort of deviance.

diagorus

Postal and Postal II were okay games. I mean, the second was definitely better than the first one, especially with Gary Coleman in the mix. The problem is that it just became so repetitive after a while. Hopefully the third installment will be much better.

I can't imagine who the hell would waste their hard earned money on such a poor excuse of a game for it to have 2 sequels...

@BlueNinjaBE: You can... direct the stream. I guess.

@BlueNinjaBE: You would be surprised then.

Radz

The game that has the ability to completely ruin the "games are art" argument.

pandafresh

Golden Shower!

Fernando Jorge

I don't see how pissing yourself is gonna help when your face is on fire.

oh wow, i never thought they'd make another one. it was taboo back then to piss on someone or pour gasoline on them and light a match.

it's commonplace now in games to do similar things