Hot Coffee Suit Pointed To Duplicity Born Of Financial Turmoil

@HELLSROMANCE: Hey that's the same way I see solving issues.

@ThaJinx: Well, as I said, it was still exaggerated, the entire bloody thing, and personally, I'm sick of hearing about this the way I'm sick of hearing about Rapelay.

So they didn't have time to take it out because they needed money. Right?

But that doesn't explain why Hot Coffee was there in the first place to be deleted.
Is there something that I'm not getting?

Also, I'm the first to lambast these lawsuits in most cases. I will scorn the over-sensitive mamby pambies as harshly as I can. But the financial shenanigans that lurk behind HC, according to this, are just scummy. If they're true, someone from Take 2 should probably go to prison.

Lol, remember when take two put up a website saying it wanted like 30 dollars a share from EA to buy them out... then shortly after EA said "no way" their stock plummeted down to 7 bucks? yeah I'm sure the holders were really happy with that.

How dare they show something as inhuman as sex! Our children might see that!

...in between running over little old ladies at 150 mph in a golf cart.

@Rajolae: It's simply because GTA is GTA, one of the pioneers in the "The Games That The Mass Media Love To Hate" camp, along with Doom and Mortal Kombat. It's seen as cool for the uninformed and the 6 o'clock news teams to bash on certain games because they're household names and big sellers, and they instantly get plus-points from anyone over the age of 40 that's ever played them.

@serotoninzero: I wouldn't. Exposing the underhanded nature of the company with one minor action? Priceless, really.

It's like David vs. Goliath, if David had flung a naked chick instead of a stone.

ARCH_27

@Poul Wrist: agreed. Lets just violently kill each other with machines and baseball bats, ignore the law, do drugs and hate people different from us instead. naked bodies tho...thats just wrong. 20 million dollars wrong.

asTer0id

@PuffyTail:
Make war, not sex.

Man in the mirror

@Ashkihyena: I never said that it wasn't. In terms of Hot Coffee: The Scandal, I thought the ordeal was exaggerated, to be sure, but being someone who has always been interested in beta content and dismantled code, I thought it raised some very interesting questions regarding what should and should not be left in a game. That's not what I'm taking issue with.

What I *am* taking issue with is the idea that somehow Take-Two had its arm twisted and was forced to engage in activity that is seen as illegal, when the decision to engage in insider trading belongs to no one other than those who perpetrated the offense. It's not just you insinuating this; the general response to this post is along the same lines, and it's kind of making my brain explode a little bit.

I don't know if it's sad or hilarious that in a game about murder, mayhem and destruction, so much fuss was made about a rather tame sex scene. A little bit of both, I suppose.

Wow, talk about gaming the legal system. $20 Million class action suit for something that could not be seen by the general public without a MOD.

How do you attain "class action" status on something you willfully had to go find a MOD for to unlock and see?

Jeez our US legal system is broken.

@Ad-hominem: Which episode of Dora the Explorer was that again?

JBourrie

@ThaJinx: Bah, the entire thing was blown out of proportion if you ask me.

They have to hack the game to access it, doesn't this free the company of any resposibility? I mean, they could counter sue the prosecurtos for reverse enginering their software, if the game was not hacked by them, they would not have a case.

This should be more of company lying that about the included content.

Sex, it's unnatural and wrong. I'm so glad artificial insemination is possible these days and that they can grow sperm in labs. That way we don't have to offend God almighty our saviour Jesus Christ by commiting this heinous act.

Poul Wrist

@Hey_Blinkon:
|:

PugOfDoom

Sex in a game. A boring, simple as hell sex game. Which was boring to play.

And mainly only unlockable on PC.

Yet media morons still covered it when it was originally let out, calling it shocking and graphic and horrible.

It in fact never showed anything, just aimed crotches close (again, no visible nudity).

(Violence ahoy and GTA is ignored. Sex and it's never left alone. WTF?)

@Placentasaurus: How is this a failure of justice? Both parties agreed to a settlement out of court, meaning the suing party got what they wanted or felt they deserved. This suit is nothing to do with morality and everything to do with money.

@ThaJinx: Tx ThaJinx, I see that I'm not alone understanding the whole situation. I think I can still believe in humanity.

slimky

@Bannana Stand CEO:
No, come on. They can't possibly be suing Take Two because they genuinely feel like they've been taken advantage of?

I don't see whats wrong with having locked porn in a game that requires hacking to unlock. If people weren't so retarded about it, they wouldn't have had the chance to do any insider trading.

@Ashkihyena: And as I said, I fail to see the basis for this argument.

Take-Two crafts but eventually dismantles code, modders find and enable code, internet catches wind of modders, media catches wind of internet, Take-Two blames modders for crafting code.

By the time politics even came into the equation, Take-Two had already damned themselves by doing too little to control the media field day and by shoving the blame on someone else (which was inevitably going to lead back to them, I'll add). If they had ponied up in the first place and been honest about what had happened, there's a chance the fallout could have been a lot less horrible for them. Instead, they made things worse and dug themselves into a hole, which was enough to cause their stock to take a hit, which made them think it was okay to engage in criminal activity.

I don't know where this is okay or why it's the fault of someone else.

@topogigio: also, has anyone noticed the backlash received by anything portraying video games (or anything video game related) in a negative light? Even when it is deserved and makes sense.

We can all love video games and defend our hobbie when it is unfairly blamed for society's ills (kids driving cars, shooting people up, road rage, agression, etc etc..). But when a good point is brought up we can be intelligent about it (i.e. racism/sexism in video games, illegal actions by video game companies, possible negative consequences of gaming at an unhealthy level)

games do not exist outside of our society on some pedestal, there are people who design them, write the scripts and design the characters and thus may reflect some of the negative aspects we see in our society and perpetuate those very things in a virtual world. "It's just a game" is a pretty easy way to get out of having these discussions.

topogigio

@ThaJinx: Exactly.. also I could care less if a video had a sex scene in it but it is the game makers responsibility to allow inform the consumers (and stock holders) about what type of material is in the game whether it was meant to be discovered or not.

The issue is not about sex/nudity in video games but the laws that were broken and the morality about including something that a parent could not be warned about because it was not mentioned on the game itself.

topogigio

@ThaJinx: As I said, had the politicians not stuck their noses in where it wasn't wanted, none of that would have happened in the first place.

@Ashkihyena: It still seems a lot to me that people are suddenly trying to say, just as you have, that Take-Two should for some reason not be held accountable for their own actions, and that's something I have a hard time grasping.

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: Identity...

CRISIS!!

BUM BUM BUM

@Ashkihyena: And since I can't edit my comment now, if the politicians haven't been sticking their noses were it wasn't wanted in the first place, this entire situation would've never happened.

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: +1, funny.

@ThaJinx: It still attracted unwanted attention from politicians who think that they should determine what people play.

@Hey_Blinkon: M for Moron, cause thats what the Hot Coffee thing attracted.

Okay, double post since the comments are being wonky tonight.

So... They are tying Hot Coffee to this by saying that, had T2 developed the game for a few more months, Hot Coffee would have been more thoroughly purged? Do they have any basis for this assumption? Hot Coffee was just dead, forgotten code lingering in there. I don't see any reason to think that T2 management was all "Man, we really need to get this Hot Coffee out of there, but we just don't have the time. Let's just ship it now and pray nobody finds out about it." It's unlikely management even knew about Hot Coffee, which kind of explains (but doesn't excuse) their initial claims that it was solely the work of modders.

And because I see a lot of bitching on this point, no I am not saying that the insider trading and stuff is unimportant. I'm just saying their reasoning for tying Hot Coffee into it all is pretty flimsy.

MechaTama31

@zixaphir:

Well yeah like well of course if they did ask I could like TOTALLY do that.....
I mean like one uses a C and one uses an R and if your fingers slipped you could like mix it up with disc and that would be like really ba...
OK OK I'VE GOT NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL DAMN IT!
(sniff sniff)
Oh god my whole life is a lie, I was born a jock but well in those days it just wasn't the same. If you weren't a geek rocket scientist people just didn't treat you the same. It was the pressure, all that pressure from society. Before you know it I was trying to buy a slide rule and going into movie theatres watching Star Wars. Oh god you've no idea how often I've longed to dress up in a hockey shirt and chat about the Habs chances this year but I force myself into that uniform and go to the Star Trek convention instead....

@HELLSROMANCE: may i bring my penitrat0r??????

Jason: Chucking Spears

@Révolution: You realize this is all a master scheme from environmentalists, who want us to die out.

Hey_Blinkon

@Ashkihyena: M for Monetary Theft?

Hey_Blinkon

@ThaJinx: Right. The who "Hot Coffee" content issue is no big deal. It's the less reported lying to shareholder and insider trading. Thats a HUGE deal (if true).

Hey_Blinkon

@slimky:

I'm afraid even with the allegations in this suit JT hasn't got any credibility left at all, he pissed it away with a long precession of childish antics, insults, threats, perversion of scientific data and frankly ludicrous attempts to both hide behind and abuse the American constitution.
Even IF these allegations are correct it would have no bearing on what I thought of the man, even a broken watch will be correct twice a day.

@Sarcasmancer: greedy CEOs

pandafresh

After reading some of the comments made in reply to this story, I have to say that I'm pretty stunned by the response. This isn't like Mass Effect where the media have blown something out of proportion because they don't want to take the time to do their research. I'm honestly confused by how counter-culture everyone is being about this by saying "bah stupid politicians" and so forth. The sex scene isn't the issue, it's all of Take-Two's garbage surrounding it, and I'm going to have to disagree with the majority and say that I'm glad it's costing them now.

First off, insider trading is a criminal offense. Martha Stewart had to go to jail for that business, so why not these guys? Is there a reason that people that made money by lying about this should not be held physically and fiscally accountable?

Second off, when the whole controversy came to light, not only did they lie about it, but the actually had the audacity to point the finger of blame at the modding community.

Think about that. I'll even repeat it to help you out:

Take-Two blamed the people that had shelled out money to buy the game (hint, this is You) in order to save their own collective asses. It's abominable, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

@Grand_Marquis: Summary: Sex is bad. Let humanity die.

What? That's the message I'm getting from all of these controversies.

@ctorrans: Wait, so Take-Two didn't remove the scene because it would cost them money? Couldn't they have just deleted the file?

You never did a game before. Did you ?
Seriously, it's much more complex than that. Especially on a AAA title were you have to test everything even if it was the smallest change you could do. They did remove the trigger to access the content in-game, but they didn't remove the code and assets because it might have caused problems (illegal references, etc). When you have a publisher rushing your ass to publish your game, you have to execute fast. That's the first law in this business.

slimky

Does anybody read the news or what?
We are talking about the Hot Coffee suit that finally revealed illegal financial practices. Stop talking about the stupidity and the impact Hot Coffee had in the medias, you aren't seeing the real news that is an important issue.

slimky

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: In fact, Jack Thomson has a "personnal" issue with the president of Take2 (Ben Feder) since he meet him in may 2007. So yes, he might be happy to see this news today. I personally think that this news gives M. Thompson more credibility. I could explain it later if you want.

slimky

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: Naw, man, it's cool. Kosher, even.

I mean, it's not like anyone wants you to go prove yourself by doing an in-depth comparison on the functionality, advantages, and disadvantages of the CISC versus RISC architectures.

@Bannana Stand CEO: Yeah, but it's kinda a stretch to say that "key executives profited from inside information". I mean, yes, it could have been handled better, but the people who issue press releases saying, "IT WAS T3H HACKERS" might have very well thought it was hackers.

@mrclam: Fantasy violence: A-ok, fantasy porn: MUST BURN!!

That's sadly the way of thinking apparently.

And just a note, in other countries, its the other way around, to bad there can't be a country that appreciates both.

The game was rated a bloody M to begin with, but tell that to the idiots, otherwise known as Politicians.

@Hey_Blinkon: that shouldn't be true but it is... damn media whores

@mrclam: Pretty much this, but thats politicians for you.

@Bannana Stand CEO: I don't remember reading any rumors about 2k Boston or 2K Main being acquire by EA. The fact that I know is that EA try to buyout Take2 in February 2008 (before the release of GTA4). So EA try to acquire all studios and IP of Take2.

However, I must admit with you that Take 2 CEO and presidents seems to act like cowboys with their financial. Lying about the financial results and giving important information to insiders is illegal and should be condemned. With that kind of attitude, I believe that they refuse to sold themselves to EA fearing somebody would see the real financial of their company.

slimky

@Hey_Blinkon: Depends on circumstances.

Let's see...they didn't have time to remove the pornographic materials because it took too much time, so they pushed it out the door. Yet they had all that time making the pornographic material and putting it in there in the first place. That just doesn't make any sense.

@Bannana Stand CEO:
I don't know, they have a pretty good line up set for the near future, as noticed by this Kotaku article today.
That, combined with the release of their GTAIV expansions and re-released retail version, should hold up the company quite well.

Blah8

@Hey_Blinkon: Agreed. What boggles my mind is how Take Two could be hurting badly enough for cash after the huge successes of GTA3 and Vice City that they would need to resort to corporate fraud and insider trading. I know that a video game costs money to make, but that series also brings in a hell of a lot of money.

We should kill the people who have enough time to care about hot coffee

@Hey_Blinkon: Summary: missionary only

THis is one of the most embarrassing failures of the Justice system and of American "morality" in the past 50 years. Completely and utterly pointless.

@zixaphir: Yup, you are right. But, the dev team is part of that production company. It's like your kids breaking a window in your house. When guests arrive and see it boarded up, you can blame whoever you want, it's still a busted ugly boarded up window that you didn't make sure your kid wasn't playing ball in the house to break it. Then again, you can't watch them all the time. Shitty situation for Take Two.

Bannana Stand CEO

@mrclam: Bwah? Pretending to shoot someone in the head is ok too. Actually doing it isn't.

Hey_Blinkon

@eatsleepdie: Well, threatening lives (aka robberies, break ins, etc.) gets peoples attention more than insider trading, which most people can't and don't care to notice. No one even seems to notice all this money from the government is just getting pocketed by them anyways, and that is way more blatant than insider trading. Lindsay Lohan's accidental cooch exposure gets more news and air time than executives taking a vacation on tax payers money.

Bannana Stand CEO

@Rajolae: The "unlocked" game was actually fully clothed. It was only "nude" after the modders did a texture swap on the clothed models... The nudity isnt Take2's fault.

Not that i personally think they did anything wrong either - when you consider the adult content of the rest of the game, the fact you cant see any sex seems stupid.

But it seems americans love violence and murder but hate the very thing which bought them onto the planet!

mrclam

@eatsleepdie: Well, some get busted. I'm sure a lot of poor people get away with stealing money too, if that makes you feel better....

Hey_Blinkon

@Rajolae: It was "hidden" though. Thats the problem. People watch movies. People watch porn. Both are ok. But if you had porn on a normal movie disc that could be accessed with a computer, people would be pissed.

The whole issue is stupid, but I think that's where the "outrage" comes from.

Hey_Blinkon

Remeber kids : Shooting someone in the head is okay.

Pretending to have fully clothed sex isnt.

mrclam

@Gaver10: I fail to see the sex lesson.

Hey_Blinkon

@ctorrans: It's not always that easy. It was probably easier to just comment out the code that triggered that scene than to delete it, causing issues with assets, cameras, story progression, who knows what else. Investigating, testing, doing the actual work, it all takes time, costs money, pushes dates back. Maybe it wasn't that complicated, but it could have been. Hopefully it wasn't lazy development, but from Rockstar "we have awesome ideas and then half ass them" i wouldn't doubt it.

Bannana Stand CEO

@XavierHarkonnen: The sex scene WASN'T there though (in the standard game). Effectively, a patch was needed to get into it. Same thing would happen today. A patch couldn't erase the content from the disc.

Hey_Blinkon

There was pornographic material in GTA: San Andreas?

That's news to me.

Or, if dry humping is now considered porn, we have been illegally selling porn to six year olds for decades now.

Ad-hominem

@Darkly Dreaming svenhoek: Hell, you get an interactive orgy.

Bannana Stand CEO

@nipsen: I think it's pretty stupid, this whole thing. It's in a game with violence, gangs, hookers, and all that already in there. While the cover up, was just stupidity on their part, blaming others, if they just said, "yes, there was a scene that was cut left in the game that people had to go and break the game (alter code which is illegal to do as the company still owns that code) and we are sorry that we did not choose a better way to rid of that scene" all of this would not be so big. Also, parents not buying this game for their kids as well would help, but you know, seems like everyone wants someone else to do things for them. Hand outs, healthcare, raising their kids. I really think Wall-E's future is right, no one cares except to talk about meaningless crap anyways.

Bannana Stand CEO

@KelvinDandogs: In the court system: Innocent until proven guilty.

In the media/public opinion: Assumed guilty. If proven innocent later, eh, they probably did SOMETHING underhanded.

Hey_Blinkon

@Sofox: Them just disabling and leaving it in there is the exact proof they rushed it. Take Two is a shady company, and while EA gets all the slack for "putting out the same sports game every year" 2K sports is even worse. Sure, NBA 2K is the better basketball game, but not much has changed, and even got worse and never improved the next gen versions. MLB 2K is garbage, never improved. NHL 2K the same. Bioshock 2 hopefully shakes this awful developement and should have sold to EA when they had the chance. The stockholders must be really pissed right now. Take Two won't be around much longer.

Bannana Stand CEO

You know the sad part of all of this, is that had san andreas been first released on a current gen console, they could have patched it day of release so that the sex scene wasn't there. They wouldn't even have had to push back the release date, assuming of course that's the actual reason why the mini-game was there in the first place.

Oh the world of what if's.

@Darkly Dreaming svenhoek: And this is what I will never understand, no one bitches about GoW's hot titties, but shits bricks to no end at the terrible looking sex scene and things that hardly constitute as titties in GTA:SA.

Rajolae

Hot Coffee I could care less about. I don't see the big deal. But, lying to investors and insider trading are criminal. If the allegations are true, fuck the civil lawsuit, I'd rather see criminal charges brought up.

Hey_Blinkon

This sums up all that is wrong with the USA's legal system and views on sex. LET THIS BE A LESSON.

@Skeleblock: Well his grasp on reality has never been his strongest personality trait.

@stalin23: Yeah, but the corporate arm wouldn't know the difference between deleting the data and removing most references to the data within the accessible game.

@zixaphir:

D'oh! Damn spiel chucker!
I shall now turn in my geek credentials and immolate myself on a pyre made from all my Tolkien books.

@nipsen: Or God of War. Hell, that game has titties! In full view!

Darkly Dreaming svenhoek

I seriously doubt that they intentionally left the sex scene in because they were rushing it out of the door.
Firstly, they did take the sex scene out of the game, they just left the data in the disk itself. Something countless developers have done with non convreversial material.
Secondly, if they had wanted to erase the data, it wouldn't have taken much. Just delete the animations, music, comment out the code, etc. As long as the code is modular enough, and the assets are not referenced in other parts of the game, it wouldn't have been that big an effort. No bigger then squashing a particularly large bug at least.

This is all about the money.. Unless they donate this settlement money to charity.

stalin23

"The suit connects the two, alleging that the company lied during financial statements to try and cover themselves and later key executives profited from inside information while selling company stock."

..or, the devs did not inform anyone of the easter-egg, and corporate hq paniced a little bit when they found out, and "covered it up" to avoid crazy lawsuits, rather than.. lol.. doing the honorable thing and.. er.. honestly admit they sold a game with.. gasp... sex in it.. *shakes head*

What about the porn- scene in Vice City? It's part of the main plot! I'd bet good settlement money that the ones behind the lawsuit haven't even played the game.

@zixaphir: Yet they belong to the same body

stalin23

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: You mean Gollum?

Because a Golem is something... completely different. [en.wikipedia.org]

Wait, so Take-Two didn't remove the scene because it would cost them money? Couldn't they have just deleted the file? Or, if it was already on the disc why wasn't Rock Star sued?

If irony were made of strawberries, we'd be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

ctorrans

i would say :"EPIC WIN to the ones who done this mod" pron could be so expensive.

dudehuge

Bear in mind that these are only accusations.

KelvinDandogs

@Weirdwolf Englands Ashes!: ...That's one way of thinking.

I would feel like a jerk if I was the guy who hacked it for fun and ended up putting Take-Two and Rockstar in all this legal trouble.

insider trading is everywhere. it's too bad only poor people get punished for stealing money.

eatsleepdie

My problem with this suit is that it assumes the corporate side and development side of Take-Two are one in the same. Which... is like saying your right arm is part of your left arm, right?

x.x

You know I imagine that somewhere in an internet enabled library a dirty and disheveled Jack Thompson is dancing like Golem on the edge of the fiery abyss in Mount Doom singing "I was right RIGHT my precious!, dirty gamers they tooks my license to practice away, they stoles it, but I was RIGHT and THEY WILL PAY!"

Wow. Take-Two suddenly became very shady in my mind. Usually I don't like video game companies because they're greedy pigs (see: Activision), but never to illegal actions like this.

brainboy77