Justify Your Game: Left 4 Dead 2

@Hamster Of The North: coop in borderlands looks pretty good as well. just get both off of steam when they hit a sale, thats my plan

cwbys21

@Hamster Of The North: that isn't quite true, going by that definition then the opening of no mercy, that lasts all of 5 minutes, is of equal weight as any of the middle maps in the movies which will take ~20 minuets. what you should just say is that the first has 4 movies and the second has 5.

cwbys21

@MurlocSniper: He said maps instead of campaigns, but arguing that the maps in L4D are really individual is silly. How many times did you sit down and say "Oh, I wanna play the Boiler Room in Death Toll and then the Finale in Dead Air!"? While they are technically individual, it's more disingenuous to say there are 20 new maps than to say 5 new campaigns. Realistically, most people are going to play through a campaign, not cherry pick the maps they play.

Even Valve doesn't refer to the specific maps, but instead the overarching campaign. They're sequential, reference each other, and are meant to be played in one setting.

@nworobes: That's progress =/

So that's what Chet looks like. Now I need a video of him punching Erik Wolpaw in the stomach and calling him a fag, to check against my imagination.

It's fun. JUSTIFIED.

I'm actually really glad it's not gonna be DLC- my 360's Hard Drive is pathetic, and DLC takes up way too much space on it.

I find it amusing that this is the sort of thing that tim rogers' most recent Kotaku article was strongly against (I think). Specifically, that a game can just be reduced down to a bullet-point list of features that each sound a little better than the previous game's bullet-point list of features.

nworobes

@stikkbomber: No logic whatsoever here, by the way. If you "pick 'n' chooz" maps, you'll get kicked out of your coop game every time it rotates to a map you've "choozen" not to have.

Besides, "multiple" DLC packs? What, just divide the content and the price by 3? Great going Alan Greenspan you can pay tax on 3 transactions instead of one! That'll make it cheaper.

MurlocSniper

@MurlocSniper:

actaully L4D has 4 areas with 5 maps each so 20, oh and The last stand stand could also be counted which brings the total to 21, oh anohter dlc coming this month with two stages? so its now 23, which is still a decent amount for a a mp game

@This user was banned: Because I love L4D, and I want L4D2 because I think it's worth my money. I also don't believe that random people on the internet have any bearing as to why I shouldn't spend my money how I see fit. That's my logic.

So what's your logic for crying about a game you're not gonna buy in the first place?

@stikkbomber: LMFAO

This is the dumbest argument I've ever seen concerning people's woes over this coming out as a sequel.

There are bridges for people like you! (Not to jump from, but to live under! :D)

Pick and choose DLC packs? ARE YOU SERIOUS? BAHAHAHAA Because these are just alternate costumes right?

Holy fucking shit.

@stikkbomber: Sticking a number on the end of the sequel is a dumb name?

Holy fuck, that pretty much blows the whole INDUSTRY out of the water!

MurlocSniper

@This user was banned: I could mimic The Heavy and yell "CRY SOME MOOOOOAAAR" like I should, but honestly I think it's better if you just don't buy this game. Good thing too, I wouldn't want ya being so enthralled by it you forget to start bashing all t3h n00bz, and team killing your way to zombie heaven.

Instead I'll say "TROLL SOME MOOAAARR AHAHAHAHAHHAA!"

Nom nom nom nom

@Adhominem: 5 new maps is inaccurate - each of the game's 4 original campaigns consisted of no less than 3 maps each. So you're talking about around 15 "maps". Generally your comment feels pretty biased here. Don't suffix bias with a suggestion that you want the reader to choose of their own volition, that's like saying "If you think A, you're stupid. A or B? You decide stupid"

MurlocSniper

@Adhominem: Kay. I'm buying.

@randomrawr: I will add that I left the game feeling very empty and dissatisfied.

they Should have a new achievement for this game for melee weapons like

PAN-TANK: kill the tank by only using a frying pan

@BubbleF**kingBuddy: I like your style.

@presto117: mkay

@kahoona: my bad I lost count. 2 of which are weaker copies of tank. one is a boomer.

5 new maps.

Melee weapons

3 new special infected.

worth $49.99 (PC) and $59.99 (xbox 360)?

you decide.

Me? I have no doubt it will be just as fun to play as the first game. But with MW2, GT5, U2, and a slew of other games coming out this fall/next spring, I'll pick this up when steam offers 50% off sale.

Adhominem

@mescalineeyes:

I liked louis very much the second I saw him in the trailer. Bill seemed like a cool guy as well.

@Spike-Strife: pick it up, with 3 other friends its gonna be some of the best co-op gaming experience's you will ever have.

@Sparkimus Prime: by content, I do hope you mean "content unworthy of a brand new game".

drunkentyger

@Sparkimus Prime: doesn't sell me at all, actually. the stuff in l4d2 (dumb name to boot) could be released in multiple dlc packs, so i can pick 'n' chooz what i want. when valve revamps the source engine, or finalizes whatever engine and coolness they'll use for half-life 3, **then** start the dev fires and marketing spin for l4d2 (still a dumb name).

@This user was banned: umm... i liked Left 4 Dead and i don't want any games clogging up my HDD space if they don't have to, so yeah, i'm gonna buy it. there's my logic. so suck it.

presto117

@This user was banned: Where is this 4th special infected?

@JP05: They called the company "Valve" because whenever they turn around, the waterworks start flowing.

@Sparkimus Prime: Heh, the console versions of TF2 have more content than Left4Dead.

@randomrawr: As did I. I have over 200 hours of gameplay. But that doesn't change the fact that Valve failed to deliver IMO, and I plan on voting with my wallet on this one.

They didn't screw up to the point of me not purchasing the game. But I, and many others I know, plan on sending a clear message by waiting for the price to drop before purchasing.

@This user was banned:
4 characters no one is attached to.
YET

were you attached to L4D's characters before release? Your logic makes no sense.

also, the if they released the campaigns as DLC, the DLC would be bigger than the actual release.

weird arguments are weird.

@This user was banned: what are you talking about for god's sake

dibbitydan

@JP05: No, but I can. Here's my list.

-The fact that this game has way more content than the original.

Justified.

Sparkimus Prime

I skipped l4d, i bought fallout instead i really want to pick this up but borderlands.....

4 characters no one is attached to.

melee weapons? I can already smack zombies with my gun (or gas tank).

campaigns...why not make them DLC?

new zombies... EDIT:2 of which are weaker variations of tank. one is a boomer but quicker.

where is the logic in even considering purchasing this game?

He don't need to. The opposition already did =p

[n4g.com]

It...I have not played L4D, but...everything he said sounded like an expansion pack. Wasn't the point to justify making a new game?

Can he justify why this couldn't be DLC for the original game?

JP05

@Sir-Lucius has no pictchar!:

An incomplete yet amazing game. I absolutely loved every moment of L4D.

I wish I was kidding when I said I'd be happy if this was the only game coming out this year. (Sorry Borderlands, it was close! <3)

Kinda sad that he had to do that, but at least it shows Valve cares.

While I can't say I plan on rushing out to buy L4D2 I will say that I'll pick it up the first Steam sale that puts it around $30.

Valve already got my $50 for what was, IMO, an incomplete L4D. They can wait to get the $30 I think this expansion is worth.

Zombies? Carnivals? Chainsaws? Add in a Zombie hooker Zoey and we have a deal.

@zuagamer: Surely just calling it Left 4 Dead would be lazy. Calling it Left 4 Dead 2 lets the knuckle-draggers amongst us know that it's in fact a seperate game. A lot of people clearly can't fathom this anyway though, so they might aswell have just called it Left 4 Dead and been done with it.

MurlocSniper

@Adhominem: His mom might tell your parents though after she gets done driving her son back home.

@Adhominem: Me too, he's got that smug know it all look on his face.

Monkeez

@Go Go Gadget: Gizmo: Word.

MurlocSniper

Well, L4D is an abbreviation, rather than the title. The game is actually "Left 4 Dead 2".

Hang on a minute, I'm taking you seriously. Let me rephrase that - you're right, having two numbers in a name is really stupid. The second number is totally redundant, as it's already "left 4". the "Dead 2" is clearly a subtitle.

Coming soon: Left 4: Dead 2. This time it's personal

MurlocSniper

@TickMan:
This. And why I don't particularly care for L4D2, whether it's coming out a year later or not.

Leaders of the L4D2 Boycott group on Steam. I want to punch the kid on the right in the face.

Adhominem

@MurlocSniper: I think he thinks it's dumb because there are 2 numbers in the title. So having the two at the end is redundant, and lazy. So naturally I think it's a dumb name also.

zuagamer

@MurlocSniper: Isn't this the approach that Fox News takes? Just look at THEIR fanbase!

BoTheDestroyer

@Sharkey1337: Yeah that's exactly it. Dropping the price makes a difference. Sales on those games went up pretty significantly, especially considering the used copies were still going for $54.99. It's part of the reason for the success of L4D. They had some ridiculous sales on the game in addition to free weekends of play. Stuff like that really helped to promote the game.

If Valve sees that sales for L4D2 are lackluster until a sale, you can be damn sure their financing and marketing teams will take that into account the next go around. Companies are about money. Valve is no different, they just happen to take a more finessed approach to PR and consumer relations (which is why they're awesome) as opposed to throwing money at a problem.

@mescalineeyes: why is it bad to have more DLC than previous content? The previous content was skimpy, fun of course, just not much there.

zuagamer

@Sir-Lucius has no pictchar!: When I was working at Gamestop last year I remember Prince of Persia and Far Cry 2 temporarily dropping to $40 during the late holiday season, I think Ubisoft was hoping to get more copies sold that way. Hopefully we'll see a similar thing with L4D2...

Sharkey1337

@This user was banned: Okay, seriously. Quit trying to prove your point, we get it.

Grinning Kestrel

Stop calling them campaigns. They are just missions of the same game with an overrated A.I. director that can be beat in 4 hours max.

TickMan

@lolgreg: L4D's characters just seem more approachable and more iconic than "Coach, Rochelle, Ellis, and Nick".

Cake_Eater

@Cheroro: If that were the case nobody would give a shit about used games and we wouldn't see companies dropping the price on games 3 weeks after release. Business 101 is your friend...

@MurlocSniper: Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound biased. I have the first game and I love it to death. L4D2 is definitely on my top 5 games to buy.

I just wanted to make the point that L4D2 is competing with a lot of big titles this Fall and for me I only have enough money for the top 3 on my top 5 games i'm looking forward to, this will have to be put on the backburner

Adhominem

@Sir-Lucius has no pictchar!: You will be sending no messages to Valve......... I really don't think that buying the game when it's on sale sends a message........... "Oh noes! People bought the (insert game name here)! Maybe it should have been an expansion that would cost roughly the same anyways!"

@Hamster Of The North: Unreal maps aren't linear. HUGE difference.

@cwbys21: and how's that diffrent from a small unreal map like Fractal Reactor to Orbital station? a map is a map.

Yeah, if it was cheaper, like maybe $40, I would be more willing to pick it up on launch. Otherwise I'll wait for a pricedrop OR it'd be awesome if they packed L4D1&2 together as I'd get that for my 360

Sharkey1337

@FeatherNET - Live in Canada: Those user comments in the boycott forum are some of the most hilariously whiny things i've seen in a long time - I don't think i've laughed so much since reading the crybaby fanboy comments on the gametrailers video for FFXIII's 360 announcement.

If there's too much content in too little time, why did he spend 17-20 seconds listing melee weapons?

Primal80s

@This user was banned: "4 characters no one is attached to."

That's where I stopped reading.

lolgreg

@(Zombie) Jolan: exactly, making the move on valve's part a total end-run to your wallet in the eyes of some gamers. valve's allowed to make money, and should, to be clear. but at the same time, it's unnerving to some when a dev of valve's caliber decides to pull a stunt that the most reviled game devs do, e.g. sequels less than a year apart.

@MurlocSniper: Alright, Tax on a $60 item, is $3.60. Combined tax on 3 separate $20 items is $3.60. No, it won't make it cheaper from a tax perspective, but it won't be any worse. However, you can still get some new content even if you decide paying rent is more important than a video game.

As for you complaining about the 'pick 'n chooz' comment, I'd recommend you check out Halo, or Call of Duty, or any of the dozens of games with map packs, optional expansion packs, or mods.

MDevonB

@panopticon: and every guitar hero game could be dlc, and caall of duty games could be dlc, and every sports game a patch/dlc blah blah blah quit yer whining

@MurlocSniper: Each original campaign was 5 maps, so we're talking more like, 25 new maps. But that was just his vocabulary, I'm sure he meant campaigns. My problem is all of his abbreviations. MW2 GT5 and U2? Man I hate abbreviations. TF2 L4D MW2 COD4 MGS4 HL2 TMNT DBZBT3 SSBB MK SF4 NGS TES4 DR2 AC2 OMGWTFBBQ. Jesus, future generations will have no idea what people are talking about.

thekoopatrooper

@Sir-Lucius has no pictchar!: to bad valve is never going to see that because once the game comes out people are going to buy it in droves. Then the few sour individuals are gonna sit there and bitch then buy it when it goes on sale later anyways giving the game a second wind of huge money making and sales. yea.... you go show valve whats up stick it to the man! then go suck his dick a few weeks later!

I'm paying 60$ right off the hop because i don't give a shit and i don't want to wait for a sale to play a game i know I'm going to love.

Vintage

@Spike-Strife: Be smart, get Borderlands...... Hands down.

@This user was banned: There are plenty of games that have yearly releases and are just as good as ever.

When was the last time you heard someone say Guitar Hero sucks because everything sucked after the first one, probably never but if you did you would probably ignore that guy saying he is just a crazy fan boy.

Look at sports games. While they may not be everyone's cup of tea there is still a loyal fan base that buys those games every year even if it is just to use new stats and players.

Or how about the Call of Duty series. The game hasn't changed much since CoD3 but they are still releasing a new one every year and people still say they are good.

Why can't L4D be like this?

idogis1

"We have this, and that, and some more..." Still, you could release all this shit as DLC (event one that we have to pay for!) to first L4D.

@Ursus-Veritas: if there's one thing i want to see it's a die hard sony fan boy boasting about FF13 being only on the ps3, only to read the news release of it coming to the 360 a day later and watch his heart sink to his nut sack.

Vintage

Being the huge L4D fan that I am, I will probably get this game on launch day.

However, when watching this video I was hoping to hear more about upgrades to graphics, sound, networking, etc. and not have the 30 second presentation focus mainly on new content. These kinds of upgrades in addition to new content would certainly be enough justification for a sequel for anyone.

I hear the AI director is improved, though. Yay.

@Ursus-Veritas: From the comments I read it seems like that group is turning in to a cult.

@This user was banned: What was that Francis? I couldn't hear with your head bein' so far up yer ass!

To get it out of the way, I'm not one of the boycotters. I wasn't planning to pick it up anyway. I just really dislike the idea of this release. This isn't going to convince anyone to not get the game. This comment is to just state my opinion, and let someone laugh at it while giggling 'fag' or whatever the typical commenter does.

I picked up Left 4 Dead a week after my friends got it. This removes any ability to find stuff out the fun way. All you get is people telling you not to do something, and why. Just like watching a movie with someone telling you everything thats going to happen five minutes before it happens.

Going based on that experience, the five campaigns in L4D2 will give someone like me 7 hours of playtime. For $50. It gets worse when you factor in the cost of L4D1. $100 for 11 hours. As opposed to a fighting game, or an arena or more competition style game, it is terrible for the money.

There is less detailed content in it than Half Life 2 Episode 2. And less overall than DFBHD: Team Sabre. As far as content/dollar it seems like crap.

Then, I'm curious where the demand was for the game that they decided to pursue it instead of making L4D1 better. It's similar to releasing a Portal 2. Everyone loved the first, but the vast majority are content enough to not give a crap until news comes out. How this got such a quick turnaround while people still ask where Counterstrike 2 or Episode 3 is is beyond me.

It's kind of odd though; this is the first console generation where people can set up an actual platform, and the first PC generation where publishers can tell them to shove it and do it their way. But, instead of setting up a platform, make as much money as you can off of relatively inexpensive map packs, edits, and changes while working towards the goal of making the sequel for the next console generation three times as good as the current game, developers are releasing nonsense like Rock Band 2, Guitar Hero 57, Left 4 Dead 2, Tony Hawk Pro Skater We Ran out of Numbers, and Madden 2009.

Anyway, sorry about the rant. I wanted to make it a lot longer, and miss a lot less logic holes, but this is way too long for a comment section as-is and I don't feel like proof-reading.

MDevonB

@dragonfang18: Sam & Max came close- they shot Zombies with CDs.

AnOkayLumberjack

@This user was banned: I am already attached to 3 of them.

yes but can you hit them with a frying pan or a chainsaw?

well at $7 each and 5 campaigns that would come out to $35 then add $7 for new characters and weapons and $7 for new infected. .... you see where I am going with this.

Oh you played the game? So what is like to play the Jocky?

Honestly if you can't see the logic in this game you are just a tool.

Lincolnsbeard33

@Vintage: Does it sound like I give a shit?

@Adhominem: i would marry gabe newell i think

dibbitydan

Do you have vinyl disks to throw at zombies with? No! I dont think so!

@BoTheDestroyer: that doesn't make any sense.

Lincolnsbeard33

@panopticon: well lets see they are charging $7 for the new campign for L4D 1. So the new game has 5 campaigns so that would be $35 dollars right there

then add $7 for new infected

then another $7 for new weapons and characters and we get a total of

$49.00 Oh hey look at that! I guess this is DLC then huh.

Lincolnsbeard33

Hopefully when they say "new" they don't mean "new for people who didn't play l4d1" :P

Nope, still not convinced.

The first L4D got boring after a few hours, adding melee weapons won't really change that.

DRaGZ

@Effin' Eh: Wait, what? I got as far as "7 hours" and the claim you got 4 hours from L4D. That implies you've never gone online, which begs the question: why in god's name did you buy a game touted as a online co-op shooter to play single player? Let alone on a console. THIS IS CRAZY TALK.

Comparitively, lemme check what Steam has to say for the normal L4D player like myself that gets in a game every few nights.
Total Playtime: 251h 26m 47s
Past 2 weeks: 5h 36m

Yeah, only games I've gotten more time out of are TF2, FO3, Vagrant Story, and FFX.

Jennacide

@TickMan: L4D2 is what L4D should of been, except with the L4D characters.

@TickMan: You're not playing the game right then. If you're not playing Versus or on Expert with friends, you're simply not playing the game. And you definitely won't finish all the campaigns in 4 hours.

@Adhominem: You know what's funny? Valve pretty much changed their minds.

@panopticon: Listen, and listen well.

All of you.

It could not be released as DLC.

1. The AI architecture and coding has been completely redesigned. They can't dismantle L4D's AID and replace it with L4D2's, because not only is it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to "patch" an entire game's brain, but it would be so full of bugs it would give the community something MORE to cry about. They can't implement the new infected in the L4D either; the maps weren't designed for them.....it'd be unbearably unbalanced.

2. What company in the history of FOREVER, even in Valve's TF2, has ever released:
- 20 new weapons
- 3 new playable zombies.
- 4 new characters.
- new voicework.
- new music soundtrack
- 5 new campaigns of 5 maps each (25 maps)
- a new gameplay mode.
- All campaigns available on all gameplay modes from the start.
- melee weapons.
- health perks like adrenaline.
- ammunition perks like incendiary ammo.
- upgraded gore mechanics, graphics and AI coding.
- upgraded Director architecture that changes weather, randomizes more map elements, and more dynamically alters enemy numbers.
- map-specific zombies.
- redesigned finale gauntlets.
- day and night capabilities.

FOR FREE? IN A DOWNLOADABLE PATCH?

You are crazy. Not even Valve can afford that. That content resembles that of what Assassin's Creed II is trying to improve on its own from its prequel, and they are certainly charging you full price, and it took TWO years to develop.

3. Microsoft would never allow this content to ever be distributed for free. They already charging us $7 for a new 2-map campaign. How much would it cost for all the new content?

PS: Valve has confirmed that the old L4D characters are not dead, and will make an appearance, hinting that they will be in L4D2 for gameplay purposes. Other new things have been confirmed as well, like a laser sight for guns.

You're asking too much, REGARDLESS of promises.

Valve is making DLC for L4D1. But what you're asking for is simply childish.

@Lincolnsbeard33: OR $10 for the campaigns, $17 for infected and $17 for new weapons and characters. OR $34 for campaign, $7.28 for infected and $7.82. OR instead of that, let's just charge $49.99 for all the textures, you get everything else free!

This is awesome, no matter how much we say that something exist where it doesn't. we are always correct to ourselves!

Maybe Im the only sain person in the boycott? I agree valve failed to deliver on their promises and want them to add what should be added to 1 first before I consider 2, but all the various bullcrap I can deal without. Maybe I should recheck whats being posted since I havent checked since BlazBlue came out...

Sounds like DLC...not a new game...

@Lincolnsbeard33:
You forgot
Completely reworked AI and level progression. +$7 If you poor Xbox 360 owners want some more justification.

I just don't know how you deal with those controls on this game.

ZaxCG2

What ever happened to expansion packs? That is what this should be, a $25 expansion pack, not a $50 re-release. I don't buy GH anymore, nore will I buy into this, L4D was fun, but not THAT fun.

Karl Kvalvik

at the risk of sounding like a stuck up jackass boycotter.... fuck you valve/

I STILL play l4d. To those bitching that it's 'too short', get some friends.
Play on expert.
head to servers with mods.
the game is the funnest I've ever had in a video game. even when you're in spec mode, the game rocks. It's like watching a horror movie.

for me, it rocks. i'll support valve in any game they release.

I'll also support any loser who wants to boycott the game - good, stay out. shut up, and whine more eon forums.

enderx

@aang001: don't buy it then.

enderx

If you don't like the idea of L4D2 then don't buy it. If you don't like Valve for "exploiting" you as a customer, then don't buy their games anymore. Both of these will do far more to persuade Valve from doing this in the future then any amount of forum posting or online petitions.

geela234

@robotsneedhugs2: Everyone needs to shut the fuck up even if it's $60. Don't buy it then! Damn people with their lack of real life concerns. Oh, and thanks. I'm hearting you for telling it like it needed to be told.

Valve hasn't even said that it's $50. It might just turn out to be $40! Everyone needs to shut the fuck up.

robotsneedhugs2

@Jennacide: And don't forget that they haven't been counting the total game-time since the release of the game. So depending on when you first bought the game, that adds another few hundred hours.

Mystman

@John_ryan84: If you're loud and vocal enough, apparently Valve will fly you over to their place and prove you wrong. Keep up the fight man!

@Sir-Lucius has no pictchar!: uhhh yes?

Vintage

You had me at "Axe"

Kirohitaku

@enderx: 'funnest' isn't a word, but that's fine... because you're right. It was a game designed to be replayed, over and over... the entire game engine is based around that - randomizing item/enemy spawns, etc.

No one complained about the replay value of Call of Duty 4... and it has less features which make it replayable - in my opinion.

Hey... 'replayable'... also not a word. Damnit!

HeadspaceCools

5 campaigns, new weapons, new monsters, bigger maps (longer campaigns), new game mode which has yet to be detailed...

So then L4D2 has more content than L4D?

Aaaaaaaand why are people complaining that it's a sequel?

HeadspaceCools

@Karl Kvalvik: except this expansion pack would have almost twice as much as the original which makes it a sequel.

Lincolnsbeard33

@HeadspaceCools: Because of the problems that plagued the first game and the lack of content of the first game on top of splitting the player community. A lot of people who bought the first game felt they paid $50 to beta test for L4D2. Another reason being L4D2 being released exactly 1 year after the first game meaning at most Valve only invested 8 months in development. With such a short development cycle it's very hard to accept this when the PC community is used expansion packs containing the same amount of content and being released in the same amount of time, people just don't accept that L4D2 isn't and could have been a $20-$30 expansion.

To compound these facts, Valve have been using the same engine since 2004 and have been essentially printing money off mods of Half-life 2 and it shows. Textures and lighting simply don't look as good as games running UE3 or Cry Engine 3. Don't get me wrong the game play is what matters most but it's hard to justify spending $50 or $60 for a a game that's not as good as it could be. Another problem people have is how L4D is being handled in comparison to Team Fortress 2 which had a lot more content and was only $20 on top of which has been getting regular content updates. "Where are those updates for L4D?" is a question a lot of players are asking.

A separate issue I have is Valve abandoning VAC basically not having ongoing deterrence to cheaters using aim-bots. I love counter-strike but there's rampant cheating going on in the game.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not opposed to paying for L4D2, I just refuse to pay full price for it. I'll be waiting for it to go on sale for $29.99. However, I still have problems with L4D's hit detection when playing as infected and until I know that's resolved I won't bother with L4D2. Problems clipping through the survivors when pouncing as a hunter, boomer juice not covering all the survivors because one player got in front, or not being able to drag survivors as smokers through common infected or over railings. It's hard enough to coordinate with random people as it is. These problems require more luck than skill which is a problem when the whole idea is supposed to be based on teamwork.

I know a lot of this sounds like bitching, I'm just giving you the answer to why people are complaining.

Tyr4nt

@Tyr4nt: Well said.

5 levels isn't terribly impressive for a shooter, even if the levels are long and pretty. New characters aren't selling points if they all control identically to one another. Melee weapons and more enemy variety will be nice, but they do not 'justify' a $50-60 purchase a year after an under-supported first title.

You set the bar high with TF2 Valve. Probably too high. That doesn't mean we won't call you on trying to lower it.

@Tyr4nt: Agreed and Agreed.
..Or is that Greed and Greed..

Fociz

@dragonfang18: REMEMBER, MUSIC IS THE WEAPON.

I'm totally baffled by this controversy. stikkbomber, would you feel better if they just held it for another six months?Would you guys feel better if they just slapped a DLC sticker on the box? Or if they only sold it online? Why does the delivery mechanism matter so much?

TanyaWenal