Discuss

(20 Comments)
  • [–]

    Neil

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 8:41 AM

    It is always interesting to see what different people are looking for when they fire up a game. I have to be really in the mood to play an in-depth rpg like those he describes, but i occasionally do enjoy a foray into the (what i would call) sub-genre. But tkae my brother; I persuaded him to buy a copy of dragon age: orgins as i thouroughly enjoyed it. I dont think he made it past the troll at the top of the tower.

    He said he didnt like having to worry about 4 people at once. Ok, fair enough. i like it but i can see how it wouldnt be everyone’s cup of tea, especially those more FPS or fast action orientated.

    I must confess to only really having played Arcanum and Baldur’s Gate from the games Joel mentioned, but would count myself among those (few?) who dont want to see the style disappear completely. I just dont see it being a major player, at least not in the near future.

  • [–]

    Blake

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 9:10 AM

    I’ve felt this exact same way for a VERY long time. While many of these games were created before myself, or at least before I was old enough to read, I have played through many of them.

    My brother however, who has played through next to nothing PRIOR to Baldurs Gate, is a HUUUUGE Rpg nut, but when I talk to him about the classics, he can understand where I’m coming from but doesn’t share the opinion or the high standing I hold them in.

    The opposite is also true when it comes to more recent RPG’s and his obsession with them, but I just don’t get the same feeling when playing them, nor to I feel the drive to.

    The conclusion I’ve come to is that it’s almost exclusively narrative.

    Old school RPG’s allowed us to customize the party however we wanted, and the story was told through the players interaction with the world and it’s denizens.

    Today we have party conversations, relationships, side quests scripted progression, that at many times revolves entirely around one of the given party members and not the player character.

    Instead of just controlling someone and their entourage, we’re playing the starring role (mostly) and have a supporting cast that all seem to be vying for their own academy award.

    While this adds depth, and most reviewers seem to discuss it at significant length, it detracts from our control, and to an extent pigeon holes us into a more restrictive script then I would personally prefer.

    There is nothing wrong with it, the games sell millions and receive rave reviews. I just don’t consider them the same genre.

    The classic RPG’s seem to have become more of a ‘sub-genre’ to the current generation. An interesting evolution.

  • [–]

    K RAD

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 10:48 AM

    It’s interesting, while I understand and respect Joel’s opinions, I disagree on quite a few of his points.

    Particular when it comes to turn based battles. I understand how once upon a time turn based battles were necessarily to popular illustrate the complexities of battle and give players enough options/time to have enough control over how a fight would turn out.

    But now days with havoc physics and euphoria there is no reason why RPG’s can’t feature the best of both worlds. Fast past action coupled with complicated party and order systems.

    Turn based combat IMO seems like such an abstract concept these days, that does a great deal to take me out of the world of the game. Which when it comes to a ‘Role Playing Game’ I want to be immersed as possible.

    That said I am not happy with how most RPG’s are anyway they seem like they are trying to retain too much of their turn based nature (Dragon Age: cool down’s for spells, being able to pause combat and order characters, simple click on an enemy to aim etc) and trying to mix it with more action type games to get that audience. I reckon the result annoys both audiences.

    I would much prefer straight turn based (maybe X COM style in something like Dragon Age) then the system that’s currently in it.

    However more then anything I would like to see RPG’s take a heading to a more real time sort of style (an amazing example of this is Mount and Blade; it has complete control over character creation, a nearly limitless cap on party/army size; and the ability to level up in any way you see fit; a game where it is left up to the player to create experiences rather then through cut scenes and plot points that give the player no choice as to what happens).

    I guess a counter point to my arguement may be that this sort of game would no longer be an RPG, however RPG’s are probably one of the most diverse genre’s anyway, and there is always room for refinement and different takes.

    • [–]

      Travis

      Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:25 PM

      Have you checked out Silent Storm, and SS2? 3D environments, destructible terrain, physics, ragdoll, and TURN BASED! Squad Level combat like X-Com, but brought up to speed.

      If you missed these games, I highly recommend you seek them out.

      • [–]

        K RAD

        Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:51 PM

        Hey Travis,

        Played SS2 briefly, during a very busy time and never really gave it the time it deserved. I’ll take another look at it as I’ve also had a mate go on about how great it is in length.

        Thanks for the tip!

      • [–]

        K RAD

        Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:57 PM

        Harsh, SS and SS2 aren’t on Steam or GOG… :(

  • [–]

    K RAD

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 10:58 AM

    I should probably add this is just the sort of RPG that I’d like to play, not at all saying that the sort of game Joel describes is in someway wrong or uncool.

  • [–]

    Blake

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:06 PM

    “RPG” has become somewhat of an ambiguous term nowadays. It seems that anything which involves distributing stat points, or gives you items to equip can claim the once nerdily regarded acronym.

  • [–]

    Brandon

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:13 PM

    I’m ashamed to addmit I forgot how RPG’s use to be. This bought back a lot of memories. I agree with alot of what he has said and there are so many of those wonderful elements in the old western RPG’s that you just don’t see anymore. I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with the style RPG’s today but there’s room for both.

    He’s right in the fact that marketing is going to stop the return of the old school. I can see plenty of room on the portable market though. Less focus on the graphical aspects and that type of RPG seems most suited to a portable console these days. Doesn’t really suit the regular console market. Maybe on PSN or XBLA

    I really miss good turn based RPG’s. Thankfully I’ve got Puzzle Quest 2 to keep my going these days.

  • [–]

    Travis

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:22 PM

    Wow, at last a sensibly written gaming article lamenting the same things I have been missing for years.

    I fondly remember playing older games like Darklands with it’s rich storyline and environment and party based gameplay. I’m a huge fan of what I term Squad Level Turn Based gaming, a genre that includes some stellar classic games like Laser Squad, X-Com, Soldiers at War and the Jagged Alliance series as well as newer forays into the genre such as Silent Storm.

    All these games kept me awake night after night, week after week with engaging and thoughtful gameplay, and often extremely tough opponents. Never boring!

    Recent attempts have missed the mark, the unofficial remake of X-com I saw recently was unpolished and amateur, the games I held high hopes for such as the most recent Fallout and Dragon Age became more of a button mash than a thinking exercise.

    The closest in recent years was the original Neverwinter Nights, that game found the balance (IMHO) between tactics and action. While also presenting strong role playing and character development. We could write our own adventures, play other peoples, run a world of our own designing, play co-operativly online, enjoy persistent worlds, or get together for an adventure with friends on a LAN.

    The focus on consoles seems to me to be what has sped up this decline. I think younger gamers are being trained into a short attention span, button mashing, fast paced gaming world, and it’s a great loss.

  • [–]

    James Mac

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:40 PM

    I would like to see an increase in party size… but that’s about all.

  • [–]

    RichardH

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:52 PM

    I see this concept going in two directions.

    Firstly, I see the traditional Western RPG as described above as a gaming style that will go the same way as adventure games.

    That is, it will be pushed out of big business games which vie for market share until it is almost non-existent. At that point it will be picked up by smaller games companies who won’t pander to the mainstream and come back with a vengeance.

    Secondly I see a lot of the desired aspects for Western RPGs as possibly being infused into future MMORPGs. It would just take a game brave enough to say “If you play this game you play in character” and your party of 8 traveling around the wasteland would be full of unpredictable characters that truly feel alive.

  • [–]

    Jarrod

    Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:52 PM

    I’m waiting for the remakes of Champions/Death Knights/Dark Queen of Krynn series, and I wouldn’t mind playing them with Morrowind/Fallout 3 mechanics. The chance to (re)explore in detail those places and towns I loved would be worth it. And interacting with great heroes and villains (like Raistlin and Soth) would be priceless.

    • [–]

      Blake

      Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 1:35 PM

      Careful what you wish for, nothing is ever as you remembered it :P

  • [–]

    Georg Pichler

    Monday, May 21, 2012 at 6:27 AM

    When thinking about a crossover of good party development mechanics along with a great realtime fighting system (that is basically semi-turnbased), Neverwinter Nights comes to mind. From the post-2000 era of RPG games NWN probably has one of the most useful systems.

  • [–]

    Farsot

    Monday, May 21, 2012 at 9:37 AM

    While I do love turnbased, or pause based turn based systems (Temple of Elemental Evil), I’m so sick of the D&D character progression system most of the western CRPGs of old and present hangs on too (levels, no more class and levels, and don’t go say TES either as the gameplay is so bad they can’t even handle a BRP style progress mechanic in a good way), also no I don’t like IWD and its personality void characters, freedom of character development has to be able to be there even when you have fleshed out characters involved and tied up in the story. Planescape Tourment is probably my all time favorit game (along with Fallout and Fallout 2) were you do have that to some degree, PST still with the D&D system but with such interestinting story about all the characters, inter-party interactions, and freedom to lead your (main) character down any road you wish (sure the WIS, INT, CHA ones are more entertaining), much like Fallout; main character is tied up in the story, free to be developed any way you want for the mechanical gaming bits, with interesting story choises for him/her/it, and companions adding flavour to the party dynamic, in way of personality, story, NPC/enviroment-reactions, and with some choises to go, if only for combat by the way of different weapons to hand them in Fallout. I’ve found out through the years that I play CRPGs for the story and the companions and their development (story and characters), and I get the most out of games were that is ‘dynamic’ and surprising.

  • [–]

    Quarex

    Monday, May 21, 2012 at 1:48 PM

    Wow, just when I thought I had finally gotten over my ~15-year-long hatred of JRPGs, you have to go and point out that they are insidiously infecting CRPGs.

    Even as someone who gets along just fine with the action-based combat of games like Skyrim, now I am kind of nauseated thinking about the console “party members from a set pool and the game telling you the story it wants to tell you, go to hell if you want things to go differently” thing. Ugh.

  • [–]

    captainDeathbeard

    Monday, May 21, 2012 at 8:21 PM

    Wow, its like this game was made for you guys: http://www.lofigames.com. (actually, it was, i’m making it). Its called Kenshi, and it focuses on the free party development of old. Theres currently no cap on squad size, and you can even split them up. Its not turn based though, mainly because i want to allow for huge battles unfotunately

  • [–]

    AndrewC

    Tuesday, May 22, 2012 at 12:40 AM

    While I prefer Western RPGs over the Japanese variety, I think the RPG genre peaked in the late 90′s, even though this was after my hardcore RPG gaming phase. Earlier RPGs could be great (Wasteland, Ultima 5, Bard’s Tale) but most of them suffered from too much grinding through the early part of the game. I would hate to see us get back to that.

  • [–]

    Pete

    Tuesday, May 22, 2012 at 1:44 AM

    I understand what you’re trying to say here, even though it doesn’t sound like more than misty-eyed nostalgia to me. But when you get to the point where you say there are no RPGs with rich stories and gameplay mechanics these days, now that’s just trolling.

    Also, I think you’re confusing ‘deep gameplay’ with ‘complex game mechanics’.
    Is being turn-based make a game more complex? Likely, yes.
    Does it make it better? Probably not.

    It simply makes it more appealing to those (the minority, at least nowadays) who prefer turn-based combat. That’s it. Arcanum – great game, but has some of the most tedious battles I ever had to endure. Most gamers today don’t want to control an entire party one by one and don’t want turn-based systems. And that’s partly due to the fact that everything is multiplatform. You won’t be able to please a console gamer with a slow-paced Western RPG.

    Being over 30, a long-time PC gamer (and a backer of Wasteland 2), I love most of the Western RPGs being released today(mostly by Bethesda, Obsidian and BioWare) and actually prefer to have simpler combat, provided the gameplay and story remain rich enough. And in most cases (the new Fallouts, Knights of the Old Republic or Skyrim), they do. BioWare made and still continues to make some of the best RPG stories ever, and Bethesda has some of the most compelling and expansive game worlds ever created and I don’t think too many people would argue with that.

    I’m not a fan of Mass Effect’s monotonic TPS battles, but that’s not due to the fact that it’s shooter combat, it’s due to the fact that it’s boring shooter combat. I hated ALL the Fallout 3 trailers because all they showed was shooting but once I got to play the game and learned how well it actually works, I loved it. Might be easier if you’re a shooter fan, or course. I like good shooters as well as a whole bunch of other genres, graphic adventures, puzzle, strategy, you name it. If you’re primarily an RPG fan however and can’t stand more action-oriented gameplay, well, these are not the times. There’s still the indies and the Kickstarter comebacks though to bring you back the style or RPG you haven’t played in 15 years, so I don’t think this is the best time to complain.

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