Destiny Dev Says “Nobody Plays Shooters The Way They Used To”

Well, Destiny, that didn't take long. Speaking with Destructoid, Bungie's co-founder Jason Jones says something that anyone reading this with mouse in hand at keyboard at front will find a little...weird. I mean, I know he's from a studio that made their bacon on a console, but to actually say this out loud seems bonkers.

We did a bunch of ambitious things on Halo deliberately to reach out to people. We limited players to two weapons, we gave them recharging health, we automatically saved and restored the game -- almost heretical things to first-person shooters at the time. We made the game run without a mouse and keyboard. And now nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them before Halo 'cause nobody wants to.

Interviews are funny things. You could argue that the "nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them" bit applies to the design changes made, and he just threw the mouse & keyboard comment in there at an inopportune time. Let's hope that's the case.

You may have noticed already that the game, the studio's first effort since leaving the Halo franchise behind, has been announced for consoles and not the PC.

Bungie says 'nobody plays shooters the way they used to' [Destructoid]

UPDATE - I originally wrote this post having read a little too much into Jones' statement, particularly the "mouse & keyboard" stuff. It's since been edited.


    Jason Jones just went full potato, never go full potato.

      *clap, clap, clap*

      Well, at least that still works


      Awesome comment is awesome :D

    Nobody wants to?! I refuse to play any other way thankyou very much..

      I with you! If I must play, I'll get one of those xim thingamajigs.

      I will not be playing destiny now.

    ..... wow... just... wow... i like almost all PC gamers wont even look at a FPS on a console.
    The main reason i never got into HALO after the first one was lack of keyboard and mouse support.

      Actually, the second one was released on PC, although it was largely ignored at the time because it isn't compatible with XP and people were too scared to upgrade.

      That said, I never finished it because the forced mouse acceleration is infuriating.

        yeah thats what i meant by "lack of keyboard and mouse support" it had a lag to the movements, and the mouse accelleration just made it worse.

    Recharging health and checkpointing are massive boons for the FPS genre. They can greatly increase the pace of the game, letting devs have greater control over the player's experience (which can be a good or a bad thing).

    Limiting weapons is something that many people complain about. It feels like a restriction of the console control scheme (although many games make use of d-Pad switching to give players 4 weapons).

    To be honest, the context of the quote isn't that people don't want to play shooters with a keyboard and mouse any more. It's that they want to play shooters that play like Halo.

    It's an arrogant statement but it's not as dumb as it seems at first glance. Games have moved on considerably since Halo's success, playing something from before then can feel very alien to people who are used to post-Halo releases.

      I came to say some thing similar - he's talking about all the things mentioned in the quote, not just keyboard and mouse.

      Arrogant. But Halo did redefine how people looked at the genre, that much is true. And if Destiny handles anything like Halo then I'll be happy to have it on PS3 - which is where I play most my games, FPSes included.

        I don't know about that. Halo was the kind of FPS that felt like a PC shooter, but was obviously on consoles and worked on consoles (and due to poor ports worked better on consoles than on PC). We've had a reverse engineering situation here where consoles started to gain traction and directly enter the PC sphere due to multiplatform games taking off in a way they had never done before. I don't think Halo did anything for gaming (it was enjoyable, but not genre defining). At the time Halo was getting big so was console gaming in general, but on the PC FPSs that Halo was trying to emulate didn't change, Far Cry, Half-Life, FEAR, etc all had more than two weapons and stuck to traditional health pack mechanics. PC shooters really haven't changed a whole lot - and that's not a bad thing; the point is just to show that Halo didn't change anything. Console gaming got big and so did Halo, but Halo certainly did not change the way we do anything.

      This developer is a complete idiot.

      Halo introduced none of the things he is claiming to Halo introduced to FPS's.

      First FPS to not have mouse and keyboard would probably be Golden Eye 007.
      First FPS to limit to two weapons was probably Counterstrike.
      First FPS to have autosave was probably System Shock 2.
      First FPS to have regen was Faceball 2000.

      3 of the 4 features he is claiming were introduced by shooters already iconic to the FPS industry. Golden Eye, Counterstrike and System Shock 2 were all well known FPS's before the launch of Halo and GE and CS were pretty much the standard the rest of the FPS community measured themselves by.

      Halo didn't even have regenerating health like he claims till Halo 2. It had regenerating shields and health packs. Which if this dev had any clue, he would have known was a feature from Bungie's previous FPS Marathon (well Marathon had health stations but the regenerating shields were a Marathon feature).

      How useless is the journalist reviewing him, to not call him out on a single one of those points. Clearly yet another case of a game journalist (and it looks like a game dev) that know nothing about games. Not even the ones they are developing.

      Massive boons? You mean it's a massive boon that we got the homogenised experience of the regenerating-health cover-hugging two-weapon shooter? You mean it's a massive boon that we get tons of the same crappy generic FPS experience? We can thank Bungie for a new Call of Duty and Medal of Honor every year?

      Wow. Thanks. I'm so happy. Keep up the good work.

      I'd rather you produce something fun and enjoyable instead... you know that game you made called Oni? Yeah, how about something like that? I liked that.

    Is he actually wrong? I know plenty of people play FPS games on PC, obviously "nobody" should not be taken literally. If I said "nobody eats shit sandwiches" I'm sure someone in the word would be more than happy to demonstrate his love of, and extol the virtues of, that very thing.

    But Halo changed the way FPS games work, how HUDs are laid out, how we play them, and that's the templte games are built to these days. Maybe if Valve had kept putting out Half Life games there'd be more of a divide, but these days you've got Halo-esque gameplay in everything, and people are plugging Xbox controllers into their PCs.


    As long as you don't try to take the remarks completely literally, which they're clearly not intended to be, his comment is basically accurate.

      "and people are plugging Xbox controllers into their PCs."
      Sure, I do that and know a lot of people who do that. But not one of them uses a controller for an fps. And Halo did not start us wanting to use controllers on pcs. Was using controllers way before Halo was even a thought.

        I'll ignore the logical fallacy that you were plugging Xbox controllers into your PC before Halo, since I'm pretty sure that's not what you meant.

        I didn't say Halo made us start using, I mean we started doing it because of the growth of console gaming, which in large part was sped along by the explosion in popularity of games like Halo and every game since that has stolen one or more of it's gameplay elements.

        Sure, I had a gamepad and a joystick for my PC in the good old days, but their application was limited and games simply didn't have the level of controller support that we have now that the Xbox 360 controller is basically the industry standard if you're going to make your windows-platform game controller compatible. Many games that are released on PC (even PC exclusives) recommend you have a controller.

        This is simply the way of things now.

          I like using my 360 controller on my pc for a lot of games however I have never once gotten the urge to use it for an FPS or anything first person.

          If you used it in any competitive shooter you would get absolutely creamed because of how precise and fast a mouse is in comparison.

            Yes, I'm sure that is accurate. You'd be insane to play controller vs m/kb. This is probably why the annual installment of Call of Duty on consoles outsells PC at about a 10:1 ratio.

              I think that's more because 12 year old boys don't play on PCs.

                I'm having difficulty with your remark because I'm not sure exactly which way you're wrong.

                Are you suggesting that only adults play Call of Duty on PC, or are you trying to invoke the tired and inaccurate stereotype that only preteen boys play Call of Duty? Get back to me ASAP, this is really important.

                  It is pretty common knowledge that COD players are mostly teenagers.

              Your love for consoles blinds your logic.
              Console games outsell PC games not because they are better. They outsell because the location you use them is better. People prefer to play a game in a lounge room, on a machine that is cheap, and will run any game that you buy for it sans hassle. The control pad was born as a necessity of ergonomics, NOT because it is a superior input mechanism.
              The mouse and keyboard will never be beaten for accuracy by anything that is controlled by a thumb. Ever.

                YOUR love for PC gaming blinds YOUR logic.

                People have grown to prefer the ergonomic convenience of the controller even when they would traditionally use mouse/keyboard. People adapted the keyboard and mouse to serve a gaming purpose because that's what was available, and much of gaming in the 90s was built around this control scheme.

                As console based gaming grew and PC gaming waned, we developed input schemes with a pure gaming bent. The thought-input reflex is streamlined allowing for faster, tighter gameplay. The controller might not be as versatile since it has a more limited number of input combinations, and it might not be as precise when AWPing people from across the map, and it's useless when it comes to real time strategy, but I'd say in pretty much any other field, a controller excels.

                Unless you've seen a Street Fighter or Initial D machine with directional arrows on it lately. I dunno, I haven't been to an arcade for awhile.

                  The simplest way to show the superiority in shooters is to do a 360 degree turn on a controller then try the same movement with a mouse and keyboard. A mouse/KB combo can spin almost instantly while it takes several seconds to rotate while holding the thumb stick hard right.

                  Here is another article you may be interested in.


                  Dude, just leave now, you're trying to argue with PC users. Just save yourself the trouble and the sanity.

                  @piratepete Seriously? No one is arguing that mouse/keyboard doesn't crush controllers when it comes to precision! What we are saying is that the popularity of consoles has increased the use of controllers, so that people people prefer them even on PC.

                  Considering we're arguing over a personal preference based on a false headline (that has since been changed), based on a misread and out of context quote, this is getting a bit ridiculous.

                  Lol nice come back: "no you are!"
                  Where in my post did I mention comfort. Of course controllers are more comfortable, but I was talking about precision. Also this article pertains to FPS, so other game types aren't taken into consideration. You use the appropriate tool for the task at hand. For example when I play racing games I use my G27/seat combo, definitely not a controller or keyboard. If I play GTA I use a Logitech RumblePad. If I play FPS I use a mouse.
                  My point was about accuracy any way. It's the reason you don't ever see people using control pads for Photoshop.

                  @lyndonl I resorted to "no you" to show how ridiculous it was for you to assume I am wrong simply because my position is different to yours. You then constructed a strawman, asserting that M/KB are superior in terms of precision which is obviously correct. But just as you never mentioned comfort, I never mentioned precision. I have said repeatedly that mouse control is far better for precision and that controller users would get crushed in a head to head game.

                  My point is that FPS games on consoles have become more popular, consoles have become more popular, therefore more people are playing on consoles. That's plain ol' statistics backing me up, there.

              How do the sales figures of COD pertain to the balance of KBM vs control pad? It isn't cross-platform, so you don't get console players coming up against KBM players (With the exceedingly rare exception of people using non-native control systems). If it was cross-platform, the controller players would get absolutely slaughtered, even with their aim-assist benefit.

              The masses are usually to naive to know better. And I'm not just talking about games.

                You're deliberately misreading my point... or at least I hope you're doing it deliberately, for your sake. Of course you also made reference to "the masses" being "too naive", which is troubling. At least you didn't resort to calling anyone "sheeple", I guess.

                I am not saying controllers are objectively better for FPS games. I am saying that consoles and their controllers are just more popular, possibly even a preference for the majority of gamers. Some people even choose to use controllers on their PCs. Without the growth in the console market and rising popularity of FPS games on consoles, this kind of transition would never have occurred. The popularity of FPS games on consoles is largely thanks to Halo and other games that borrowed gameplay elements.

          It's the way things are now, and it sucks balls.
          I have two incredibly responsive control inputs for my PC. A keyboard and a mouse. And they offer unparalleled precision compared to the joypad. I don't own a console controller that will work on my PC, and it makes me SPIT whenever I see that a new game coming out on the PC is designed entirely around it.

          I vote with my wallet on those, because it's the sane, reasonable, rational way to behave. But I swear, I still get strangle-thoughts despite my better nature.

            Some games simply play better with a controller than with keyboard and mouse. Dark Souls, Devil May Cry, Arkham Asylum...

            Keyboard and mouse is a great control scheme and I use it for a wide range of games but there are more than a few games that controllers are simply better for. I wouldn't use a controller for an RTS but I wouldn't use a keyboard/mouse for an Action game.

            If you really want, you could play Marvel vs Capcom with a Guitar Hero controller. Doesn't make it a good idea. There isn't a one size fits all option for gaming controls.

            Third person action games have always played better with controllers, that's the way of the genre. Mouse and keyboard are superior for a lot of types of gaming, but I will always prefer to plug in my 360 controller for games like Darksiders, GTA, Sleeping Dogs, Dark Souls etc. Controllers are more responsive and intuitive with the analog sticks for that particular type of game.

            A keyboard is only incredibly responsive in a strictly digital signal though. If you want to move your character with fluidity and care, not their vision, you can't argue that a controller isn't better for that. So yeah, as a result, Third Person games tend to be much better with the controller.

            It's surprising how often that fact is left out in these debates. Probably because the sorts of PC gamers who actually fight about this stuff on comments are only really here to remind people of their version of 'the truth'.

      First FPS to not have mouse and keyboard would probably be Golden Eye 007.
      First FPS to limit to two weapons was probably Counterstrike.
      First FPS to have autosave was probably System Shock 2.
      First FPS to have regen was Faceball 2000.
      Halo didn't even have regenerating health. It only had regenerating shields. First game with regenerating shields was Marathon (to be fair a Bungie game)

      Yep, dead wrong. About every word that came out of his mouth.

    Wow.. arrogant much, are they? It's not just the comment about mouse+keyboard.. it's the whole "stinking" paragraph.. like they invented the genre or something.. Halo is a game on XBox.. it was popular.. and within the XBox community it is still popular.. but that's all..

    It definitely was once said that FPS games wouldn't work on consoles because they lacked mouse+keyboard.. and granted it was games like this that changed the way publishers saw the console market.. but they didn't re-invent the genre, other than dumbing the whole experience down so it is fun on consoles.

      Control schemes have nothing at all to do with a games level of depth. If a game is 'dumb' it because it is 'dumb - doesn't matter if it's a controller, keyboard or motion control!
      What I find dumb, is thinking you are somehow elite because you only use a mouse & keyboard!
      I use Mouse & Keyboard AND controllers, so obviously I'm 2X as elite as you :/

        or Elite minus controller...

        Well I wasn't talking about just the mouse+keyboard thing but other things they have done such as what was also highlighted in that paragraph: "We limited players to two weapons, we gave them recharging health, we automatically saved and restored the game".. and not just those things either.. they dumbed the gameplay down to make it work for console in a way that a PC game wouldn't necessarily work on console, which is what the publishers' fears were.. that the game would flop etc.

        I use controllers and mouse+keyboard too.. that wasn't the point of my post.

          but they didn't re-invent the genre, other than dumbing the whole experience down so it is fun on consoles.

          Adapting user interface is not "dumbing down." Current videogame controllers have 32-inputs, not including combinations. Most PC to console conversions I have ever played, are exactly the same as the PC version. Except for control layout. A few examples; Command & Conquer (PSone), Red Alert (PSone), Deus Ex (PS2), Half Life (PS2), Morrowind (Xbox), Doom 3 (Xbox), Thief 3 (Xbox), Half Life 2 (Xbox360), Crysis (Xbox360), Witcher 2 (Xbox360), etc.

          The "consoles are dumb" argument doesn't cut it anymore for lazy game design - and never did. Also the fact that computers only do what they are told to do, whether it be console, PC or Phone.

            Gawd.. how many times do I have to say that I wasn't talking specifically about the controls. Geesh.. read the posts.

            Not responding anymore if that's you're entire rebuttal.

              I actually don't care. My reply is about your reference. Not the subject. Get bored of regurgitated statements that jab, at what amounts to, different form factors for different entertainment set-ups. No-ones going to use a controller as the prime input device on a PC, the same as no-one is going to use a mouse & keyboard as the prime input device on their console in the lounge/game room.

              Don't take shit personally - it's the internet.
              And also

    He seems to be referring to many aspects of the old school shooters that don't really exist anymore, not specifically mouse and keyboard. Expect a clarification on his meaning to be released soon.

      First FPS to not have mouse and keyboard would probably be Golden Eye 007.
      First FPS to limit to two weapons was probably Counterstrike.
      First FPS to have autosave was probably System Shock 2.
      First FPS to have regen was Faceball 2000.
      First FPS with regenerating shield was Marathon.

      He's claiming credit for features developed by other devs.

    Game development just found its very own Gerry "nobody makes money on the internet" Harvey.

    This is wrong!

    ...Halo never had recharging health! It didn't get its CoD recharging health until Halo 2, limiting and dumbing down the game. I was so happy when they brought it back for ODST and Reach. Then got annoyed when they took it out again for Halo 4.


      Shields were often treated as an extra health bar, so having a recharging shield on top of a non-recharging health bar is still a form of recharging health.

        Originally the shield depleted fairly quickly and required timing and movement to keep it alive as long as possible while taking out your targets and letting it recharge. You always felt it when you saw your health drop by a little or a lot, which could change your tactics and strategy and how you approach the next few battles unless you recover.

      Recharging health was introduced to COD in COD2, 2005. Halo 2 was released in 2004.

        Yeah, but today most people associate recharging health with Call of Duty.

          They don't. Or at least they didn't when Halo 3 was the biggest thing. Halo has readopted non-recharging health, and Call of duty has gotten bigger.

            Yeah, that's why I said today. Back during Halo 3, every game was "stealing from Halo". But now, every game is now "stealing from CoD".

              If I quoted a lyric from Bohemian Rhapsody or something and you quoted me, and someone said you stole those words from me, they'd be accurate insofar as I may have inspired you to quote those lyrics.

              That does not mean that I was at any time the lead singer of Queen.

    I just want this game to be good. I'll play it however you want to give it to me.

    Have to say I totally agree with Bungie. I grew up on wolf3d, RotT and Duke on PC but since GoldenEye got my attention on N64, I have used controllers ever since and it feels totally natural now. A mouse honestly feels like my head can fully rotate round and round which just makes it feel more distant and less connected. Don't hate me, I respect you love keys and mice but you are missing out on some of the greatest games by refusing to not adapt.

      I think many people, myself included, happily play console exclusive fps' and use the controller but we still prefer Mouse/KB.

      I have tried to "adapt" as you put it and nothing makes me feel more queasy than trying to control a first person shooter with a controller. You can keep it, and I will stick to my precision mouse and keyboard thank you very much.

      I have a lot of friends who say the same as you, but then they also can't see that a controller has about 8 directions (left, right, up, down, diagonals). I can physically feel that limiting my aim and movement on consoles and it's one of those things that peple who prefer controllers will never understand, but I don't think that should make it any less true. I spent a lot of time playing Halo, Halo 2, Halo 3 and ODST but I was always a PC gamer, and having to go back to consoles is an extremely limiting experience for me. If I stop playing consoles for a week even and go back my aim is all over the place. That's not because I'm a bad gamer, I just have to relearn how to use a controller and the less time I spend playing on consoles (these days I don't) the harder is it to to accurately use a controller in comparison to the mouse which has always been easy, no matter how little I played with it.

    Check out moggles comment on destructoid.

      Bloody brilliant. :)

    We made the game run without a mouse and keyboard

    Too bad Half-Life did it four days before Halo.

      actually they did do it before half life. They ported over the original Marathon to the apple pippen console

        Unless I misunderstood the wiki article, Marathon was first released on the Pippin as Super Marathon in 1996. Wolf3D was released on the SNES and Jaguar in 1994 and Doom on the Jaguar and Sega32X also in 1994. Dunno if they needed peripherals though

          Difference between Marathon and wolf 3d/Doom was the fact that marathon had freelook. doom and wolf3d didnt have freelook. infact the original control scheme for marathon on the mac was the typical WASD set up for moving forward/backwards and strafe left and right with the mouse for looking,aiming and turning. the Mouse button was primary fire and if you happened to own a 2 button mouse (very hard as macs rarely got them) you could map the secondary fire to the 2nd button. Weapon changing was devoted to Q and E shift was run though you everybody mapped capslock to run

        Then I stand corrected.

        Comment removed

      Golden Eye did it 4 years earlier.


    Sensationalism much?
    To me We made the game run without a mouse and keyboard. And now nobody plays shooters the way they used to play them before Halo cause nobody wants to. doesn't actually say "nobody plays shooters with a mouse and keyboard "

    As an avid PC gamer I came here expecting to be defending the superiority of the mouse and keyboard for first person shooters, when actually the author of this article is just making shit up.

      yep typical Luke Plunkett fail editorial (borderline libel).

      Exactly my thoughts.

      Here here.

      To be totally honest, I don't play FPSs on PCs anymore. I think the last one I played was the original Quake. I'm kind of the reverse. I love a good FPS with a controller on a console, and it doesn't matter when every other person is using a controller - it's a level playing field. You do get used to it after a while and I can't sit on the couch with a beer and play while rolling a mouse across my thigh.

      Actually it is open to interpretation.

    Nobody plays FPS with a mouse and keyboard? No sir, you're very mistaken or out of touch. No one who plays FPS to win, plays with a controller. That's like a professional cricketer strolling out to the crease brandishing a Kanga cricket bat. A controller just can't complete with the freedom of movement (freelook) and accuracy of a mouse/keyboard combo. There is no argument here, it's a simple fact just as the sky is blue and water is wet.

    So I can't seem to see the part where he explicitly says "No one plays shooters with a keyboard and mouse"

    I did however read the part where he is saying that first person shooters have changed a lot in terms of controls, pick ups, health etc. because of Halo.

    Personally it looks to me that there is a huge mix up here, partly due to how he has worded his statement, and partly to Lukes interpretation of what he's said. Also, the articles title doesnt help matters either.

    I love all the people that obviously haven't read the article OR at least the quote. If you had, you'd notice Plunkett is blowing this waaaayyy out of proportion.

      If he did, then so did the guy at Destructoid and those that commented on the article as well.

    The guy is a moron.

    The entire reason I wont play FPS on consoles is lack of keyboard and mouse.

    I agree with the DEV. I use computers all day for work. Using Mouse and KB feels like cheating!

    Given the amount of people that don't use mics, and that they're touting the 'social' aspects of Destiny, the game sounds like it would be a hell of a lot better WITH a keyboard.

    Uhh... Am I crazy, or does he never say "No one plays with mouse and keyboard"?

    Cos. He didn't fucking say that. And I'm 100% certain it isn't what he meant either.

    Wuh oh....

    I get what Jason Jones is saying...
    Years ago I used to play FPS with a mouse and keyboard but since I got into games like Halo and basically any FPS on a console I just used a 360 controller for PC use.
    The only games I still use a mouse and keyboard for anymore are pretty much only RTS titles.

    The truth is, the vast majority of gaming is now done with the controller. The lie there is "no-one plays with a mouse and keyboard".

    Personally, I can jump back and forth between K&M and controller easy, but I definitly prefer the keyboard and mouse.

    I like the part where he never actually said that nobody plays shooters with a keyboard and mouse. And then a whole bunch of people pointed out that he never said that. And then everyone continued to complain about the nonexistent statement.

      Well he was misquoted in the original title for the article. Still wise to read the quote before complaining though.

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