How do you parse the news that Target has decided to give in to pressure, to a 41,000 strong petition, and removed Grand Theft Auto V from shelves. How do you react to it?
I’ve been wrestling with this from the second I heard the news.
The base instinct in me, in all of us I suspect, is to rush to battle stations. To man the video game cannons and blast mercilessly at the hypocrisy of it all, to blindly vomit chunks of rage at the moral panic brigade.
Because as a culture, Australian gamers are so used to this debate. We’re used to being under attack. Crucially, we’re used to video games being treated differently compared to other art forms. We’ve heard and seen it all. We know the counter-arguments by rote.
But here’s the problem: in this particular situation those arguments are all but useless. They’re simply not applicable. News that Target has removed Grand Theft Auto V from stores puts people who like video games in a weird, untenable position. Making a huge unruly noise will get us nowhere. It will move us backwards.
To begin with, we have to accept a few hard truths.
Firstly, Grand Theft Auto‘s depiction of women is problematic. Put aside the fact that the video game allows players to be violent — in equal measure — to both men and women. Place that aside for a second. That’s a given. Female characters in Grand Theft Auto are poorly drawn; they’re either ‘prostitutes’ or wailing, nagging buffoons. The handful that remain inevitably become damsels in distress. There are very few women in the world of Grand Theft Auto that exist outside this spectrum. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t play Grand Theft Auto, that doesn’t mean it’s worthless as a cultural artefact — it simply means that we have to accept that the game has problems, specifically with its depiction of women. We have to accept this.
Secondly, we have to accept that Target’s decision to remove the game is not censorship. Hypocrisy? Yes. Absolutely. Censorship? Not even close.
Target is perfectly within its rights to sell or not sell any product it sees fit for any reason it sees fit. Target doesn’t sell a lot of things. It doesn’t sell pornography, it doesn’t sell the Metroid Prime Trilogy on Wii. It doesn’t sell Irn Bru. It doesn’t sell Jenga as I recently discovered to my distaste after spending a whole day trawling through Westfield trying to find a box of the stuff.
Point being: this is not the same as the R18+ issue. In that situation government legislation was literally stopping stores like Target from selling video games rated R18+. In this case an individual retail group has made a decision. A decision it has every right to make.
As a consumer you also have the right to stop shopping at Target as a result of this decision. Crucially, you also have the right to buy the game at a number of other stores. I suspect many will choose to exercise those rights. This is fine.
Thirdly, we can’t even blame Target for making this decision. You can accuse it of hypocrisy. You can point to the dozens of other R18+-rated products being sold in Target stores. You can complain about 50 Shades Of Grey, but to date no-one has produced a 41,000-signatures-strong petition demanding its removal. When a statement that powerful and grand in scale lands on your virtual desk, some sort of response is necessary. You might disagree with that response, but consider the tangibles.
Target is essentially a chain store which markets and sells to an older section of consumers who are, more often than not, parents. Much of Target’s advertising is catered specifically to that demographic. It has to protect that segment of its revenue. Ask yourself how often you buy video games from Target. Ask yourself who normally shops at Target and what they buy. Target has made a strategic decision based solely on damage control and perception management. That’s what businesses do.
Finally, and perhaps most crucially, we cannot blame the women behind the petition or any of the men and women who signed the petition.
Think their concerns are misguided? Absolutely. Believe that the concerns are the result of broad moral panic? Worried that their success could set some sort of precedent? Sure.
But it’s of paramount importance to understand and accept that this petition was the work of women with serious, sincere concerns. Important concerns about the portrayal of women and the impact it would have on young men’s attitudes to violence against women. These are ex-sex workers who have experienced sexual violence from men. Their concerns are more than valid.
And their concerns deserve to be heard. It’s important to take those concerns seriously. It’s important to take them on board. Verbally abusing or threatening these women — or any of the men and women who signed the petition — is toxic behaviour and only serves to make the situation worse. It only serves to prove their point. Above all, it’s wrong.
Essentially, what we should be fighting against here is the mainstream belief that video games are exclusively for children. More importantly we should be fighting against the idea that interactive media has a stronger impact on players compared to movies, television or music. These are the misconceptions that inform these petitions. These are the misconceptions that are constantly re-reported in mainstream media outlets as fact. These are the misconceptions media outlets routinely exploit for traffic and manufactured outrage.
With the introduction of an R18+ rating in Australia, part of me had hoped that those attitudes were a decaying, dying thing. That widespread education and the growth of gaming in across widespread demographics might change those attitudes. I had hoped that mainstream media would have gotten the message, but it appears I was wrong.
And nothing — absolutely nothing — will change until those attitudes are dead and gone.
Comments
262 responses to “Target’s Grand Theft Auto V Ban Leaves Us With No-One To Blame”
Anybody else tempted to band together with other gamers and petition for the removal of ’50 Shades of Grey’ from shelves? I’d like to bet we can get 100,000+ signatures on a purely spiteful basis.
Problem is – it’s gotten so many guys laid that there may not be too many willing to sign. 🙂
That’s really depressing.
Enh. I’ve spoken to a few folks through work (which definitely comes under the category of TMI, but whatever, it’s all ‘rapport’) who noted that it had improved their bedroom activities with their spouse.
More intimacy and fun in a relationship is an unquestionably good thing. Even if the women ARE fantasizing about wealthy young playboys.
In that area it’s good, but people within the lifestyle are still trying to warn couples of what the book is saying, how it goes completely against the ideals of the culture and trying to inform people on the correct way to view that life style.
But what I was mainly responding to were guys using the book to get laid. Only caring about the end result of busting a nut and dumping the girl. Screwing with her levels of trust by abusing it via that book.
Hm. Imagined problem? I really haven’t heard of that happening, mostly what I hear is women buy it as plausibly-deniable ladyporn, then go drop hints of varying subtlety to their clueless men to go buy some toys.
In that respect, it definitely got the guys laid when they wouldn’t have been expecting to, which makes it hard to complain about. That’s the context I’m familiar with, and what I’d expect to be more common. I don’t even know how a pump-and-dump playa would use the book as a pick-up tool… I don’t think it works that way.
YOUR CORRECT IT IS NO USE THAT WAY UNLESS YOUR INTO WEIRD ONES THAT STAY OUTTA THE SUN. BUT IM NOT ALL FOR THE SUN EITHER.
As soon as the butt plugs come out, I am out.
But this isn’t about understanding the content for what it is, it’s about misinformed outraged over the perceived content of 50 Shades combined with the fact that Target appears to be a democracy. I think we should do it.
I thought it was cute and made a point when the FOX anchor calling Mass Effect ‘basically pornography’ then admitted she hadn’t played it, got her book review-bombed into oblivion by users who admitted that they hadn’t read it, but apparently she endorses that method of review.
But I dunno, sometimes I think… it’s probably time we grew out of that.
Madness, right.
At the end of the day, with digital distribution looming, if a physical retailer wants to handicap themselves, let em go I suppose.
Except that means everything is in the hands of Valve. And that could be a bad thing in the long run. Apple is famous for running its storefront with a deluded moral compass. Valve could easily end up like that in a few years.
Its a step backwards for feminism.
Hasn’t done shit for me. My wife skipped the porn sections. She was more interested in the toxic relationship. I don’t think she realised how much worse that made it look that she would read that trash, and not even for the good stuff
I am not saying a thing about your wife but this sounds a hell of a lot like “I only read Playboy for the articles”.
Haha! It so does
Was thinking the exact same thing. Do you think it would have more impact if we waited for the DVD release of the movie?
Yes, oh yes please.
I’ll sign.
Im waiting for the one person to go big – petition for the removal of all books and literature from target
Good news all, already started by someone off reddit:
https://www.change.org/p/target-stop-selling-fifty-shades-of-grey-in-all-target-stores
I may or may not have the ability of foresight. Feel free to worship me.
EDIT: I have actually shared this link on my Facebook. I urge all others to do the same, so we can protect the children from such filth.
Crap thing is, he’s coming at it from the wrong angle. The book isn’t terrible because of its depiction of men, it’s terrible because of its depiction of the life style. A life style that emphasises the important of consent, something the novel ignores.
I know very little of the BDSM lifestyle/community, but I imagine you would be correct.
Feel free to create a petition and I’ll sign that too. I am only in it to be a spiteful bastard.
This is the reason I can’t bring myself to sign that petition. It reads exactly like what it is: A knee-jerk reaction to the first petition that got GTA banned.
What it needed to be was a considered, carefully constructed petition that outlines everything wrong with the book and why it should not be sold in a family targeted store, with the occasional reference and jab at the other petition, with a sprinkling of “Where will it end?”
Unfortunately, that’s not this petition, and this petition won’t get anywhere.
I haven’t read the books, but I would have thought whatever was going on in there WAS consensual. Is it legal to have graphic descriptions of non-consensual sex? I remember years ago when I got American Psycho (the original novel by Bret Easton Ellis), and the thing came wrapped in plastic shrink wrap with a bit R18+ sticker on it, while 50 Shades is sitting by the cash register at K Mart. Obviously I’m not suggesting 50 Shades is as extreme as American Psycho (which is a really nasty piece of work, albeit very well written), but I guess I wouldn’t have thought it would have had the ladies all flustered the way it has if it was about non-consensual activities?
But then what the hell do I (or anybody else) know about why the female half of the species like one thing and not another? 😛
Well, people within the life style pointed out examples of typical abuse and areas of non-consent. Even pointing out one area where the safety word was ignored.
I thought it was terrible because the writer couldn’t write for shit. Seriously, I don’t understand how people managed to read it, I got through about 3-5 pages before I was clutching at my eyes, hoping the writing style hadn’t burned them out of their sockets
But it could just be me..
I was about to sign this for the fun of it then I read the reasons for the petition. They refuse to acknowledge that the violence in GTA is actually a problem and perpetuates sexism.
No it may not make us go out and bash women, but throughout the game women are clearly objectified, and whilst men may be in 50 Shades, sexism towards men doesn’t pervade almost all aspects of society. I can’t even count the amount of times I’ve had to walk a female friend home or pick them up at night, etc because they are genuinely in constant fear sexual violence. As a 21 year old male I can walk anywhere at anytime and feel completely safe, and it’s sad that my female counterparts of the same age cannot do the same.
What? Amanda is fed up with her husband and looking for an easy out, though end up being able to reconcile in the end (iirc); Tracey is a spoiled brat with a hidden daddy’s girl edge despite her affectations; Tanisha (Franklin’s ex) left him because he was a gangsta bum and wanted a better life, and Franklin’s crackhead friend JB always has his hoodrat girlfriend working for him, because he’s too much of a crackhead bum to do anything.
Devin Martin has a high power female executive. Trevor develops a nice (if awkward) relationship with Martin Madrazo’s wife which is completely contrary to his prior demeanor; Rosa must have changed him a lot. Seems to me a lot of the subtext is female empowerment.
The men are disgusting criminals, and (most of) the women are well adjusted members of society.
And are we so quick to forget a scene where Lazlow is attacked for grinding up against Tracey without consent? All the times characters berate others for disrespecting women. It just goes on and on.
Because it happens to one demographic more often obviously means we should marginalise the others who experience it as not worth talking about.
Already at 1000 signatures.
Thing is, I doubt Target will take it seriously.
Now, I dont know much about 50 Shades Of Grey (sounds familiar, right…?) but isnt it about a woman’s journey into BDSM and other abhorrent sexual deviancy?
As in, if it was filmed and created as a proper adult title, most of it would be banned or censored in Australia, right?
Now again, I must re-iterate, i dont know much about the book at all
50 Shades of Grey was created as fan fiction for Twilight, then had the characters name changed to avoid copyright infringement.
Not know anything about the thing you are petitioning to ban seems like a pre-requisite anyway.
I’m in. If they can try and victimise me for something I like and they know nothing about, I think I should be able to reciprocate the feelings.
Edit: I did sign.
Count me out. Forming and signing petitions in ignorance is the exact thing that caused this entire affair, fuelled by mistaken assumptions about a medium’s content and intended (and legally restricted) audience. I know next to nothing about 50SoG, beyond it’s controversy and reputation, but I do know it’s certainly not being marketed towards kids, so I’ve got no problem with it existing or being sold. Acting in pure spite never solves anything.
The entire GTA series has never and will never be marketed toward kids either, that has not stopped it from being criticised for harming children.
You honestly believe an entire slew of early-mid teenage girls and boys have not bought 50SoG after hearing all the controversy? At least video games have classifications (even if a store does not enforce them).
You are right though, I am acting entirely in spite as I stated a couple of times previously. The thing is that nothing will ever solve this issue, so I might as well try to get a chuckle out of it.
I’m not disputing that GTA is marketed exclusively to mature audiences.Okay, Target’s catalogue was actually putting it alongside Spiderman, Barbie and Peppa Pig dolls. Target’s marketing department are amazingly ignorant of what they’re selling, and I’d rather that they stop selling it than continue to market it in such a manner.I’m arguing against making the same claims they’re making, against a book I know very little about. Perhaps 50SoG is just the thing to have book-lovers cry out for a better ratings system for literature, if kids are getting their hands on it? In any case, it’s nothing to do with games or GTA, and is thus unjustifiable as a response – it’s a non sequitur. On it’s own? Go nuts. “Target, 50SoG is currently unrestricted, and has great potential to corrupt young minds; please stop selling it.” The closest GTA should come to it is suggesting that they would be open to the suggestion as they acquiesced to do so for GTA due to similar concerns, despite its sale being legally restricted to adults.
Participating in an argument where one side refuses to acknowledge its own ignorance is useless, and aping them in that does nothing but diminish your own position on the matter. Issues like this are never about convincing the other side, they’re about convincing the audience – we’re not going to persuade those supporting the petition, but we can present the facts in a public forum, and convince others who are as yet undecided, or maybe make some more open-minded folks to rethink their opinions. As Mark says, we need to tackle the underpinning assumptions among the general populace that allow these petitions to gain momentum, not just shout down anyone who has a different opinion than ourselves.
We like to joke around, often in manners that would, to an external viewer, be considered abusive. And we do so a lot online, where it is highly visible. But in this case we need to be mature, especially when the issue at stake is our maturity itself. If we can’t treat serious issues with the gravity they deserve, then can we really say they’re wrong to call us immature? If we continue to respond to falsehoods with misogynist abuse under the “Adolf Hitler” pseudonym (as I saw on the original petition, btw), can we really claim to be worthy of respect? We can denounce the people who make such extremist “jokes” as “the vocal minority”, but we still need the majority get up and have their say.
I know you’re acting in spite, I just disagree with your proposal because you’re assuming we’ve already lost – we haven’t. Issues like these move at a glacial pace. We spent over a decade trying to convince people that games aren’t just for kids, citing the number of titles for mature audiences, citing gamer age statistics, citing how little notice parents took of the ratings on game covers, and eventually we got the ratings system amended to take adults into account. Most of us thought that would be enough – an R rating exists, so logically that means there are games that aren’t for kids, right? Apparently this wasn’t enough.
I’m not saying it will be quick, or at all easy, but thinking you’ve lost prematurely is the only way to guarantee defeat in any debate.
It may be hard to believe, given how I have probably come across within this comments section, but I did read that entire reply.
I will not list out arguments against you because quite frankly, I agree with almost every bit of what you said. I have argued for years against people that want specific games banned or restricted and what have you. I’m so extremely tired of dishing out logic, stats, facts etc only for all of it to fall on completely ignorant and deaf ears that I have all but given up.
I sound like I’m trying to ban firearms in the USA. It’s not ‘that’ serious a matter, but the point is I am just tired of arguing about it so I gave up and pretty much make a point of doing all I can to annoy those people as much as they annoyed me over the years.
I have to admit, that did end up being a bit longer than I intended. Sorry about that 😛 I know I have a hard time being concise, so I appreciate your patience.
And I completely understand how tiring it can be to try to convince people that just won’t listen – it’s like debating with a legion of gramophones. But, it’s all we can do, so we need to make the most of it – make sure the discourse is conducted in a high-visibility space so as many people as possible can see the evidence for themselves and make up their own damn minds. That’s all anyone should do, imo; it’s the very core of democracy (in theory, anyway…).
If I can get one person (even if they’re just watching from the sidelines) to rethink their stance on an issue, or even better, to investigate things for themselves – that’s a victory, in my books.
Yippee, somebody super intelligent that says the right stuff!
the women behind collective shout, who started this GTA V petition, have already beaten you to making a 50 shades of grey petition, or so says their facebook page
Ahem.. https://www.change.org/p/target-australia-target-target-withdraw-50-shades-of-grey-from-shelves-this-sickening-book-depicts-sexual-violence-against-women
I’ll sign.
I think we’re missing a much better target with a much larger following, who if looked at completely out of context (as this petition has done) often portrays and treats women (and well… everyone) “badly”.
Something that people would actually get quite mad about being removed from stores, something Australia really cares for.
We’ll have to take one for the team though.
Game of thrones.
ooh I know right.
http://www.target.com.au/p/game-of-thrones-season-1-3-blu-ray/56510287
The media is much closer related to video games as well, be it using the same classification system. you know the one for adults. like this game is.
There are plenty of critiques of it
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/30/the-abused-wives-of-westeros-a-song-of-feminism-in-game-of-thrones.html
just have a look:
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=game%20of%20thrones%20feminist%20critique
I am a big fan of criticism through lampooning and I think this could be done well.
https://www.change.org/p/target-continue-to-sell-grand-theft-auto-5-in-australia
This one is 10K strong hope it gets stronger.
While I dislike the decision that Target made to not stock GTA (and what it may represent for the future), at the end of the day it’s their decision.
Thanks for the rational response Mark, but I cannot support a store who does this, and I for one will be shopping elsewhere. It might not be censorship per se, but what if it happened to all retail stores in Australia and not just Target? It starts somewhere and this is it.
Absolutely!
You’ve been quoted on mainstream media
http://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gamers-fight-back-against-targets-ridiculous-decision-to-ban-grand-theft-auto-v/story-e6frfrt9-1227144736337
grats! (?)
Brilliant article Mark.
I enjoy all your articles, but this one really stands out.
That is the stance I have taken. No more shopping at Target.
I completely agree with what Mark said about how GTA represents women but it does represent all men in at a degenerates too. There was never a hero stereotype for the damsel in distress, but bad male stereotypes. So I am still against the ban.
But $14 amiibos at target – bargin!
This is the only gaming-related thing I’ve bought at Target in recent memory!
Target don’t sell GTA V or any R18+ rated products in SA anyway. They made that decision because the state govt expected them to provide a separate display for anything R18+.
Who buys games from Target anyway?
I’ve been getting my Skylanders from them because they are a bit cheaper than EB or JB Hi-fi. But no more. I’d rather pay a few bucks more than support these guys.
It’s a shame Target will lose business for this, it seems it was kind of forced into it by the petition group.
Companies often stand up to petitions if they feel they’re unjustified. Recently we had Cadbury (and others) standing up to the One Nation lead group telling people that by having a Halal certification they were putting bombs in our kindergartens (or some such rubbish).
I appreciate Target’s in a difficult position, it’s just a pity they seem to lack the knowledge of the subject matter (and/or conviction) to stand up to these people.
It’s a sign of the times – you can get 40k signatures to ban GTA from Target and only 60k to support a pay rise for the military. Silly right-wingers.
Can people decide which wing these people reside on? Left or right? I mean, personally I don’t give a crap about their political leanings, chances are they don’t all vote the same. They’re just NUTJOBS.
Definitely right-wing. The liberals (Little ‘L’; left-wing) would be more indignant about the censorship, lack of free speech, and general acceptance of sex, drugs and Justin Bieber.
Maybe they’ve been reading too much press about how gamers are dead and figured it wouldn’t make a difference??? I wonder who was writing that manufactured click bait?
Chances are this’ll be just like Chick-Fil-E. People will boycott, and other people will buy more because they support the decision.
EB price match! Problem solved.
I buy a lot of my PS/3DS games from Target as they can often be cheaper or equal to JB HiFi.
I’ll still be buying from Target, I feel they were pushed into it and just need to protect their business which has been struggling for a while.
Two words: Price Match
I’ll be happy if they remove Smash Brothers as that depicts violence against women, children and pets.
Making we should start a petition…
My heart nearly stopped the first time I saw Mario hit Peach with the hammer. Truly horrific violence.
https://www.change.org/p/target-target-australia-must-remove-all-super-mario-bros-games-from-sale
Correct me if I’m wrong but there are “depictions of violence” against men in this game too??
To progress the story you are forced to torture a man but no one is complaining about that.
Actually, there was a huge discussion about that particular scene when the game was first released. A lot of reviews pointed out how uncomfortable they felt about that scene, how it felt unnecessary and the implications of it being in the game.
That happened when it was first released.
Yeah I remember that but I don’t recall a big push about it being unacceptable or worth banning the game for from the non gaming public.
I think that’s because it was really only discussed in the gaming community. The level in question never really made it into the wider non-gaming community which is why there wasn’t a push to ban it.
I found that a bit confronting when I got to that mission. I had to turn off the vibration in the controller (because the heartbeat was freaking me out a bit). Much more than any footage of killing a prostitute…I haven’t hired a hooker in my play throughs.
So you’re pointing out that Not All Violence is against women?
Infact, I would give a conservative estimate that approximately 95% of violence in this game is against men. Given:
Gang members are all male.
Police members are all male.
Majority of civilians spawning seem to be male (an assumption but I’ve been taking note and it seems to be?)
Your friends are mainly male.
The person you torture is male.
In all the missions, barely any females at all are killed. I actually can’t recall if any are tbh?
Just a conservative estimate, but it seems about right.
Guess I was being too subtle.
The ‘Not All Men’ pattern of response derails the conversation away from the focus and the point of discussing depictions of violence against women in this game. The quote I copied from the article even asks to avoid this kind of pointless, unproductive diversion.
But here we are.
The people who formulated this whole petition in the first placed have limited to no idea about the content of the game, when engaging with them in conversation, repeatedly I was told ‘I don’t need to play the game to know what’s in it’. Yeah you really do…
How is it cherrypicking to want to have a discussion around how this game’s handling of violence against women has lead to people holding particular perceptions and raising petitions that have led to the actions that Target has taken?
It’s the crux of the entire situation outside the game. Bringing up other aspects of the game (yes, even the rest of the violence) is not something relevant to the overall picture of why we are now where we are.
Edit: hey, you deleted your comment about it being nothing but bad cherrypicking. Sorry, it takes ages for me to write more than a few words on this silly touchscreen.
It’s cherrypicking due to ignoring entire other aspects of the game. When you scream ‘you can murder women! it glorifies violence against women!’ Ok, you can murder women. You can murder men too, in copious amounts. You also murder aliens.
You never rape women, that’s for damn sure. Yes they are definitely prostitutes in it, a mainstay since part 3, I’d definitely like that equalled out with male versions of both strippers and prostitutes. However it’s cherrypicking when you make a giant fuss over the game ignoring the elements of violence that are equally dispersed.
Why is violence against a woman more important than violence against a man in this modern day and age? It’s a sensible question.
Of course at the risk of being called ‘misandryst’ and such, which I am most definitely not, I ask this legitimately, why is the violence against men being selectively ignored and only the violence against women being focused on? Surely both aspects should be equally focused on if the issue was of such absolute importance. The argument hinges on the crux that games can influence real life, which we know is unequivocally false.
I’m not saying the violence against women is the only thing that should be focussed on in every conversation ever. Nor am I saying it’s more important. But it is the focus of *this* discussion, right here in *this* opinion piece.
Can one issue not be discussed unless other issues are also brought up?
Why don’t we talk about the driving mechanics in the game? I mean, no-one raised a petition about that, but it’s also a bigger part of the game than the ‘violence against women’ bit.
The main reason it’s brought up is because if something is to be discussed, then it should be discussed equally. Both sides should be evaluated and equated to have an equal, balanced conversation. Noone is denying there is horrible violence towards women in it, that’s undeniably true. However, the way it’s being presented is horribly biased and horribly misrepresented. It’s being presented as Misogyny Simulator 2014 (when it was out in 2013 :P) when the reality is, it’s actually ‘Equal Bastard simulator 2013/2014 : Kill every gender’.
It’s probably one of the more equally represented games out there. I shot off a tweet to R* just before, asking if they will put male escorts and strippers in part 6 or an add on (again, something I firmly believe should be in here), for equality sake, as I believe that’s a major downfall of the game in terms of representation.
But in terms of violence, if we are to speak of violence that befalls someone in the game, lets talk about the violence equally, not turn a blind eye to one form of it and deem it acceptable so we can concentrate on another… that’s horrendous.
You’re setting an arbitrary boundary of inclusiveness to define ‘equal’ discussion, and diminishing anyone else’s discussion that doesn’t conform to that.
In this discussion of the portrayal of violence in entertainment products, I see that you’re not acknowledging depictions of violence in movies. That is not a very equal discussion, and your selective turning a blind eye towards movies must mean that you condone all violence in movies.
You can include movies by all means if you wish to go that far, I’ve been the one endorsing the idea of broadening the scope of the discussion, you however have been saying ‘limit it to women only’. By broadening the scope of the discussion, you invite more data, more information, more involvement and allow the ability to discuss active involvement versus passive involvement, so yes by all means.
What is *not* an equal discussion, is talking about the effects of violence on one gender only, when it is equally applied to two genders in a game equally.
That’s cherry picking at it’s very core 🙂
Hey, I appreciate the smiley 🙂
As far as limiting the scope of the conversation, please re-read the quote from the article we are commenting on that I first posted at the top of this reply chain.
Yep. Every time I get bored while playing a GTA game, I go on a massive kill everybody rampage. I’m sure most people do. There would be very few people who specifically go hunting for women to kill (though I would be naive to believe nobody did this).
It also makes me wonder, if Rockstar patch the game to include male prostitutes, will Target allow it to be sold in their stores again?
Probably not. I don’t think it’s a matter of equality, it’s more that this group deem any depiction of violence against women in a video game to be wrong. Then they go on to list all of the usual incorrect reasons that get drummed up when people who don’t play video games decide to get upset by them … and so it goes on.
I wouldn’t worry though, I’m sure another outrage will pop up and take their attention soon.
Shouldn’t they (this group) be totally against Smash Bros and Mario Kart then?
If they were being consistent in their argument, then yes. But (I’m guessing) they’d say that those games not not depict realistic violence because they’re “cartoony”.
There’s no point trying to hold them to standards in their arguments, because they just won’t listen. The fact that they’ve created a petition which flies in the face of widely accepted research, and are incorrect in what they say actually happens in the game will tell you that their horribly misinformed, and to be honest I don’t think they want to be informed. They just want to get their way.
Ban Far Cry series because it’s animal cruelty (actually it’s animals being cruel to humans but who cares, ban it anyway)
The interesting thing that I’d like to know the actual reasoning behind is that it purely targeted Target (sigh, really Freeze?). Why not the multitude of other outlets that sell it? If the problem is with the game itself why target (stahp) somewhere that is far from the biggest fish in the video game retail pond? Or are they going to use Target’s capitulation as a launchpad to start pressuring everywhere else now?
I think they won’t stop with Target. They just went for the easy… er… target (sorry) first.
Bullseye
(not sorry)
Correct, Kmart now as well..
I expect it is because they painted a big target on their backs by, over the years, embodying the stereotype that their customers adhere to, mom and pop store, old people etc. Those customers that are most likely to have a view in line with the petitions cause and therefore resulting it its success. I am sincerely hoping this doesn’t set precedent but even if it does, and someone tries this again with other stores, how much success do you see this having at EB Games? at JB Hi-Fi? Gametraders? The only store I would see it having any further success in is probably Myer. K-Mart at a stretch but even they have a relatively burgeoning tech department whenever I find myself inside one.
You know Myer stopped selling games a couple of years ago now, right? 😛
Also, Kmart burgeoning in the tech section? I wanna know where you’re shopping. If anything they’re regressing, pretty badly. Which sucks, since they used to have crazily good prices on new stuff, now it’s all just a few bits of years-old stock and half of them are missing their cases.
I suppose burgeoning might have been too strong a word 😛
More accurately I feel there is at least a focus to keep their tech area relevant, it doesn’t feel like it has been stashed in a corner or locked behind plastic doors as per targets department
*edit
No apparently I missed that about myer
The Kmart at my local shopping center at least doesn’t even sell PS4 or Xbone games and only has a extremely limited (20 – 30) selection of PS3 and 360 games.
A whole aisle of Wii shovelware however.
They targeted target as its an ideal target, its been pushing deals on its games much harder then kmart and big w even having signs out the front for the game as well as in their catalogues, i went into my local target and its games section is so nice compared to the kmart a couple of shops down who just renovated their entertainment section. Clearly they will now use their win over target to target the other big chains till all that are left with a target on their back will be JB and EB..I see a world where importing is the only option to get GTA if you dont already have it, no different to before the R18 rating
I’m considering downvoting your comment because I feel that you didn’t use the word ‘target’ enough.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the same reason the TV/movie lobbyists went after iiNet instead of Telstra or just… everybody all at once. Gotta start somewhere, pick your battles. Evidently they picked well.
Honestly I’m surprised they stocked it to begin with. It’s Target. I wouldn’t have pictured them having anything 18+ on the shelves.
Money.
Same reason it had shelves full of 50 shades of grey at the very front of the store at the height of it’s popularity.
Games are for kids dude, didn’t you know? The rating on the front is more of a guide. If little Jimmy wants GTAV for his birthday soccer mums do what soccer moms gots to do (sic.)
It’s not about who games are for it’s about who Target caters to. I wouldn’t expect to find porn and booze there just because it’s been properly rated and restricted. I wouldn’t expect to find R18+ games at Toys R Us just because they choose to sell some games.
I wouldn’t sign that petition, I think it’s stupid that Target respond to petitions at all. I also think it’s a bit stupid that this aimed at GTA specifically rather than a call for a general reassessment on their policy of selling adult orientated material. The reasons for singling GTAV out seem to be as flimsy and ill-informed as ever. On that level I find the move totally offensive.
However all that aside I can understand not wanting it to be sold there. It’s an adult orientated game and Target presents itself as a family friendly store that doesn’t specialise in games enough to carry every single title. If we were talking about JB HiFi or EB that’d be different, but in both those cases they’re not going to cave to a tiny little petition because frankly the people on it aren’t likely to spend much money in their store anyway.
Excellent article, thanks for being a calm voice of reason in all of this.
I was thinking about this just before, particularly the women who are signing the petition, and where they are coming from. Sure there’d be a lot of bandwagon jumpers, but the movement was started not by someone wanting to destroy videogames, but by women who have had to deal with pain and violence the like of which most of us have never seen.
People are hurt on both sides on this, lets try to remember that people on our side are only hurt because someone said some things we disagree with about a video game we like.
I agree, but the correct way to raise issues like violence against women is to raise awareness through things like White Ribbon Day and the like, which I support, not brute-forcing retailers to self-censor what they sell.
Except that the petition is also filled with misinformation and alludes to the petitioner thinking that this game is MEANT for boys under 18 and that it’s GROOMING them. The petition was also aiming to go after other retailers after Target and use them as an EXAMPLE platform.
https://www.change.org/p/target-don-t-withdraw-grand-theft-auto-5-this-already-year-old-game-encourages-players-to-commit-equal-opportunity-violence
The petition that started all this heavily suggested that the parent bought the game for their underage child and was then mortified when the warning on the box was true about gratuitous violence, sex & nudity, WELL I NEVER. And then proceeded to take it out on Target where they purchased the game rather than being a proper responsible parent, sad.
This is why I love JB. When GTAV came out I went to my local to buy it (Indro, QLD) and the amount of 12-15 year old kids hovering around the counters while middle aged women (obviously their mothers) were in the queue holding copies of the game.
To their credit, one of the staff members, who clearly knew what was happening, was reminding these people about the content and why it was rated R18+. I saw a tantrum happen when one of the parents put the game down and proceeded to drag their screaming kid out of the store.
Hands down the best one was a parent turn around to their child and say ‘You didn’t tell me that this game was violent!’, meanwhile this kid tried to put on his most innocent face as if to say ‘This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure?’
Needless to say that when my turn came to pick up my shiny new Collectors Edition of the game (as a responsible adult who doesn’t need my mummy to buy the game for me) I thanked the staff for their vigilance on the matter.
I didn’t get involved in the petitions, rallies and letter writing about why we need an R18+ system for Games just so some little kid can trick their parents into buying them something that they should not be consuming (at least without full parent awareness and consent), it is still staggering that even with a big black R18+ sticker on games etc that parents will not give a second thought about buying the latest title for their special snowflake because surely all games are meant for kids right?
/rant over
If anyone bothered reading the petition (I get e-mails from Change.org) you’ll see that almost 50% of the bloody signatures are imbeciles signing so that they can comment on how stupid the petition is….. Nice to see that Target did bother reading the comments for the petition though =p
That sounds to me like kind of a dumbass move, signing a petition in order to complain about it. Assuming your 50% estimate is close enough, more than 20,000 of these petitioners are actually against the petition, and yet collectively have doubled its ability to make waves. #PicardFacePalm
Like with Pynes petition about ABC south Australia studio – he quotes the 2000 signatures but so many were calling him names in it.
We should start a petition to get Target to put the game back up on their shelves =P
Edit: just checked again seems there’s a lot more signatures now for the petition however the most liked comments are still people speaking out against the petition.
There already is one.
https://www.change.org/p/target-continue-to-sell-grand-theft-auto-5-in-australia
If even half the people who bought GTA V signed the petition, it would eclipse the removal petition completely.
EDIT: Actually there seem to be a lot of similar ones about, maybe if there was some way to pool the signatures into ONE petition instead of twenty?
I can blame someone and its the feminazis. (Not the feminists themselves, different category). After viewing two facebook pages over the last week where I saw vile lies spewed by them in regards to this, such as ‘all men who play this are rapists’ and ‘this game allows you to rape people’, I can absolutely blame people who decided to back something with either no knowledge of the target material or based on a lie. When queried about the fact in GTA online you can play as a woman murdering men the issue was ignored completely by them and the same rhetoric was chanted back at me? On that basis alone, yes I can.
*Edit* Just to add to this, when I queried these people, as we engaged in conversation that soon spilled into argument with me being accused of being affected by games etc by these people (not very pleasant ones on this site), their views were the standard garbage, gamers are violent, gamers commit violence because of games etc. I showed the 11 year study but they wanted none of it, one even trotted out Jack Thompson and GTA as ‘evidence’. These people were endorsing the petition and openly calling for their friends and family to flock to it to sign. Again, these are the kinds of people who were signing this bullshit, so yes I can.
When I queried why it was acceptable to berate GTA but not ok for me to be offended by say, Sex and the City, a show that objectifies men, all hell broke loose. Sure it’s not violent, but when I applied the logic that the show degrades men by turning them into sex objects, focusing on their penises, making the target objective of any man on the show to bed him, I was immediately labelled vile and told that I had ‘missed the point of the show’ and it was ok because women were not being objectified and ‘how did I like it’. I hadn’t missed the point, but the hypocrisy on display was definitely interesting to see.
Careful on your terminology. There are many people online who use Feminazi as a derogatory term for any woman vocal about feminism and when I began reading your comment, I was worried what you were about to say. Thankfully, I was relieved to find you weren’t using it in that manner and you had a point above bashing the signed.
TL;DR – It’s worth remaining objective and avoiding aggressive language when you’ve got a good point to make 😉
That’s why in brackets I put (not the feminists themselves). While I don’t consider myself a feminist, I have feminist friends who actually go out to seek equality in certain areas of life that still require attention, the workplace, childcare and they concern themselves with equality for men as well, which is comforting to see. When someone does something like this and what I experienced though, it’s disgusting.
Well, the ones who call themselves feminists and are labelled feminazis from i’ve witnessed do nothing to promote feminism where they’re meant to be lobbying for equal rights for both men & women. Where in fact they call oppression on anything a male says and try and play the poor me card, or claim men raped them by looking at them and speaking to them.
I have a few friends who identify themselves as feminists and actively seek equal rights for both men & women, and they’re embarrassed/disgusted by these others who are doing the exact opposite and giving a bad name to all because they’re the more vocal ones some how.
Welcome to the world of Left Wing nut jobbery…. The land of perpetual outrage. We all know misogynists play GTA because that’s what Anita told us! And we dare not not argue because that just shows how sexist we really are, so this move by Target should be welcomed by all!
It’s got nothing to do with Left wing nutjoberry. Right wing nutjobbery is just as retarded (I dare say right wing is just a euphemism for nut jobbery in general, but that’s just MHO). This is about uninformed people, assumptions based on a lack of familiarity with a product and good ol’ fashioned hysteria. Nothing more.
So you’re saying people like Anita spreading misinformation is a bad thing? and that tacit supporting of those views in some way encourages the spread of misinformation?
Where the smurf writes I read 🙂
For me personally, GTA has always been a step too far. As graphics improve, imagery gets more easy to relate to real life….. So people obviously get concerned when you can beat the living hell out of a woman for the fun of it. None of the people signing this partition have watched videos of flying a plane under a bridge, or been interested by the story (or the underlying sarcasm of the game), because they have not been on the game journey and slowly been acclimatised to the increasing reality of our gaming environment. I struggle to play the modern COD’s and Battlefield’s because I know there are people fighting wars and dying in similar ways, and I really don’t want to immerse myself in that (take me out of that reality and put me in Gears or destiny and I have no issue with it).
When we create stories that enable us to behave poorly, in realistic scenario’s, with storylines that are clearly offensive to some, we shouldn’t be surprised when people get upset. And we shouldn’t then boycott a store because it has made a decision to block one product due to people being concerned. It is a product that doesn’t fit with their demographic – and by promoting the product in toy catalogues it is promoting an 18+ product to kids. Not cool.
If Target had just had the game on their shelves, not of this would of blown up. Because it was front and centre in their catalogue, people got upset.
These are the people that make me dislike the human population in general. A lot of them probably don’t even have kids, or they use it as a excuse to deflect their own responsibilities as parents to monitor what their kids have access to. Or even worse, they just need to complain about something because, because their they are sad with their poor pathetic lives and want to feel important in some way.
Agreement Hi-5!
Word, Smurf!
There is an article about this on news.com.au. Nicole the sex worker is talking about how this game changes your brain etc. Did she study psychology or just watch Fox News?
I just personally refuse to take moral lessons from a sex worker, male or female. *shrug*.
*Edit* Hey sorry if I offended saying my morality should come from a sex worker. *shrug* I lived with one for a while in relationship and the experience was not exactly what I’d call pleasant, I’m well aware of the life, what it entails, I’m never going back to that world again, I don’t say this through inexperience. Incidentally, we may not be together any more, that was a prevailing factor in our breaking up, but she’s out of that line of work now and her life is a thousand percent better away from that fucked up lifestyle. Deal with it.
But you didn’t say “morality shouldn’t come from a sex worker” you said “I refuse to take moral lessons from a whore”. There’s a big difference, one’s an opinion (that I think is a bit silly and short sighted) and the other is a character judgement. Replace the word “whore” with any other derogatory slang for a group of people and see how it sounds.
You seem to be making pretty reasonable arguments in your other posts, don’t go and cap it off with an inappropriate comment, it just undermines your credibility. Come on, just change it to be a bit less inflammatory, a bit less obvious that you look down your nose at sex-workers and think they have nothing to contribute to an intellectual discussion, then the civilized debate can continue.
@puck Well worded and critique taken under advisement, I’ve changed the offending and ill thought out word to a more suitable one 🙂 thanks for pointing that out. 🙂
My experience in the actual life makes me hate that industry with a passion. How the people treat each other, how the employers treat the women and men, how the clients treat the workers, there’s no ‘honour’ and no benefit to working in the industry at all. It’s life destroying in the end in a multitude of ways. I’m not going all ‘christian ranty ranty’ about it, it was soul sucking for my partner at the time and two of her friends, with how her employer would take the bulk of the money, how new regulations imposed by the government due to legitimisation essentially took away any ability to make decent money out of the industry, forcing a lot of them to look into the illegal side of it, removing the ability to unionise, to be treated fairly etc. It’s a giant catch 22 and it’s a terrible industry to be in that noone should ever experience.
That, and working in IT 😛 lol.
My view: Target is a family store. They should not sell R18+ stuff at all.
To pull just GTAV now, when they’ve already made their money from the year the game has been on sale, with the spike from the next-gen releases, seems like pandering.
It also seems there’s a lot more education needed in what R18 means.
Beyond that, what @markserrels said. Excellent and balanced piece.
I can agree with this, if they want to take the moral highground, they should not sell R18+ content at all. Like you say, it’s been on sale a year, they’ve made a lot of money off it at this point in terms of sales. It makes them major hypocrites at this point.
Not sure why it attached my reply to your post, thought it was a new post. Comment weirdness. Worked out OK though…
A valid point is always a valid point to make 🙂
My only problem with this is that Target have reacted to a consumer demand without putting any thought or research into it. The petition said jump, they didn’t ask “how high” until they were already in the air.
They can choose not to sell the game or not, I really don’t give a shit. That’s their right. But the petition made false claims which Target has blindly accepted in a bid to please what they perceive as being a significant demographic. It was a sensible business decision. And that’s what bothers me: it was actually the best possible thing for Target to do, to listen to lies and blindly commit a business decision based on the loudest voice in the room at the moment.
That’s what I’m going to take away from all this, anyway.
That’s how all this moral outrage works though – your point is largely irrelevant provided you shout loud enough.
Anyone who is spouting vitriol as a result of this are only hurting everyone. Like Mark said this is an issue of ill-informed people taking their ignorance of something and banding a whole bunch of other ignorant people together to all support something that is flat out untrue. It paints people who play GTA as violent misogynists which is wholly offensive to the reasonable people who play these games, a fair amount of which are actually women.
It unfortunately sets a precedence for more of the same which is the most worrying thing.
Most of these people probably have not even sat down and played the game so they really have no frame of reference; its knee jerk reactions to cherry picked content from the game.
I don’t dispute your view. However, Mark also says that you must accept this. “accept that this petition was the work of women with serious, sincere concerns.” He doesn’t care that the viewpoint is invalidated by being false, and that these misguided people are now affecting gaming through their own thinly veiled social mores on what they find offensive.
Further, his view of Target is very myopic indeed. If your sole view of Target is that of a Sydney suburbanite, your way off base. Target has a very strong regional presence in Australia post the acquisition of Fosseys. (Showing my age here.) Some regional areas would be lucky to have this as their sole department store, meaning regional gamers now have less chance of being able to pick up a game. Sure they can buy online but in areas that would be lucky to receive postal services once a week some people could be waiting months for a package that never arrives.
Secondly Target US are a very different concern, and you can bet that this minor victory will be swung into a larger narrative to attempt to coerce them to also not carry games that a small non gaming population don’t like. Target US sell everything and are a massive player in the retail space. I could walk into Target US pick up a 6 pack of beer a pack of smokes and a new outfit and have change from a $20 note. If a company with that much buying potential is affected, you can bet the industry will feel it.
As for when Mark says “These are the misconceptions that are constantly re-reported in mainstream media outlets as fact. These are the misconceptions media outlets routinely exploit for traffic and manufactured outrage.” Bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I believe there is some sort of revolt going on in gaming against organisation’s doing this type of thing. It’s a wonder there isn’t more press about the good changes they’re making to the industry, instead of manufactured hysteria and misconceptions.
The game depicts people from all walks of life. Male, female, trans, rich, poor, middle-class, homeless, hipsters, immigrant farmhands, drug dealers, drug users, convenience store workers (how can be used for money health and then brutally murdered), fitness freaks, overweight people, police officers, military personnel. I could go on. They all have tropes mixed into their dialogue, and the occasional bullet mixed into their day.
I think this quote couldn’t ring more true, than in GTA “Kill them all. Let God sort ’em out.”
This post is so goddamn true it hurts. Why more people don’t realise this is a shame. It really does depict *everyone*. I don’t believe it badly depicts women. I believe it badly depicts EVERYONE and the reason it ‘badly’ depicts them is it’s a parody of life.
That petition also doesn’t represent the Australian people by-and-large, let alone AUSTRALIAN Target customers. There are signatures from all over the world determining the decisions of Target.
I think we’ve failed to point out that this petition was started by an ex-sex worker who was violently abused, and upset to see the portrayal and abuse of prostitutes in the game. The petition was largely signed by sex workers, as well. http://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/target-pulls-gta5-from-shelves-after-a-sex-workers-campaign-to-shut-down-grand-theft-auto-v-due-to-its-sexual-violence/story-e6frfrt9-1227143245292
This is an important fact to note, and really all I’m going to say on the subject. I’m not too sure how I feel about it all.
Not really sure her being a sex worker has any impact on the overall petition. Being an abuse victim does; however following the line of thinking behind the petition the game should also be pulled from Big W and any other retail stores that don’t specifically sell games.
We should also put up big neon signs outsides EB games to warn parents of the adult content found in their stores.
It’s an important fact to note, and there are two (in my view) equal sides to any debate flowing from it. Either:
1) she is clearly biased and should remove herself from the debate; or
2) she has a unique sensitivity to the issue and enables us to consider viewpoints that might otherwise not be considered.
I can see how you can take away the problem of sexualised violence from GTAV, especially if you have personal experience with sexual violence. The problem I have with that is that it’s basically a strawman – the game does not promote or glamourise sexual violence. You can kill prostitutes if you choose to do so, but I’d say few do except in a deliberate bid to do something shocking. GTA has been billed by critics as a murder simulator and back in GTAIII it was established as a “novelty” that you could engage a prostitute then kill her to get your money back. It’s a meme, an off colour joke, but not something people do as a matter of course and I don’t think that the new “first person mode” does anything to promote the violent acts further – in fact most gamer commentary I’ve seen on the subject actually finds the violence quite confronting. People don’t enjoy the level of brutality the game offers when it’s as up close and personal as the first-person mode offers.
Can this game offend you if you’re sensitive to sexual violence? Absolutely, and I would never make any argument that is diminuitive to such a viewpoint. But does it promote or glamourise such violence? No, absolutely not, and taking the viewpoint that your personal capacity to feel offended is the same as something being fact is a logical fallacy.
Your well thought out, respectfully written and refreshingly verbose contributions are always something I enjoy reading. 🙂
While I understand their position, does this stem from a rush of violence and abuse against sex workers as a direct result from people playing GTA V? Are we also to expect convenience store/petrol station workers to band together against the game because people are robbing them at gunpoint?
People often misdefine “censorship”.
Censorship pertains only to governmental action. No private action is censorship. No private individual or agency can silence a man or suppress a publication; only the government can do so. The freedom of speech of private individuals includes the right not to agree, not to listen and not to finance one’s own antagonists.
Target is well within its rights to do whatever it wants.
For the record I don’t agree with the decision, but that said in Target’s position I’d probably make the same choice.
It was lose lose for Target. It was always going to be a PR disaster for them. It was all about damage control. Had they ignored the calls for the removal, then had this made its way into the media (and it would have because the complaint was gathering steam), Target would have been dragged through the mud along with GTA V. They’d be the company that sells games that encourage violence against women (as is perceived by the misinformed).
It’s removed the game and it’s still a PR disaster, but to the misinformed, it looks like a company that will remove products the consumer deems inappropriate for sale. It’s just throwing a bit of water onto the fire. If this makes its way into the mainstream press then Target will look like the good guy to a majority who don’t really know a lot about GTA V and just see it as a killing simulator. I admit though that it doesn’t bode well for the industry and it just adds fuel to the fire where gamers are trying to redefine games and break them away from negative stereotypes.
This happens all the time: whenever one person complains to a TV network about a show or advertisement, depending on the nature of the video, the network often complies. It’s just damage control to avoid looking like a company that doesn’t care about its consumers.
It’s a sad state of affairs but I’m not surprised. Really, Target didn’t have a choice. I’m certain they would have discussed this at a corporate level and with PR, and from that perspective it wasn’t so much a matter of burying the issue as it was just trying to limit the amount of damage. It was a PR disaster either way. This is a pretty isolated incident so I don’t think they’re obliged to remove other R18+ products.
Target did have a choice, I’m tired of hearing that. They would’ve copped flak from either side, but at the end of the day, people will still shop there, they won’t lose a cent of sales from those protesters.
Your opening statement is flat out wrong. Censorship isn’t limited to government action, you may be confusing the subject with the US right to free speech (which only applies to government intervention). Censorship can be enacted by anyone.
In regards to the commercial side of things – Target could have ignored the petition, rode out the 5 minutes of shaky PR and the budget conscious mums and dads would still continue to shop there and they would have made a fortune out of selling GTAV (not to mention I’m sure there a bunch of bundle deals they can’t do now either). Instead, they bowed down to the petition, showed that it works and next time this group of misguided people get together they will expect to have the same result. What happens next time R* or someone else releases a controversial game? Target might as well not sell any R rated games as this group could easily apply their illogical notions to any of them.
My question is simple, does this impact Target Country? Target Country in my town is the only place to buy video games for 300km and they’re cheaper then buying online because of freight and always have the game day one its a major or minor release, they know they’ve got the gaming market in a town of 10,000 which has a high population of gamers (at the last local LAN we had over 500 people and the local facebook page has 2000 members). So is this a company wide policy or can certain stores ‘opt out’ because target here did a sale on GTA where you bought the next gen copy, the last gen one was half price. So basically gta5 on ps3 and ps4 cost 100 for both, I know I went for it got a ps3 in the bedroom and a ps4 in the loungeroom
Yo ozgameshop has free postage (could be over a certain amount, but I’ve never had to pay postage) and is generally cheaper than literally anywhere. Never pre-ordered though, so I don’t know how on it they are with that, but it’s worth looking at.
It’s free for pre-orders and orders over $50. Used to be free for all orders but its still only about $3, which I think is fair.
Sorry, Target, but a company that acts like this is not one who gets my money.
…At least, that’s what I would say, but living in a small town, we don’t have a lot of options for buying clothes. So, no more buying games from Target, then.
Internet petitions bother me. They go viral on facebook (i saw the GTA petition running through my feed for the past few weeks). Ran fairly hot with a group of rather religious groups who jump at the first oppertunity to have a compain without investigating further the other side of the issue (but in my opinion, thats why they are religious in the first place)
Internet petitions are easy and quick to jump on the bandwagon, But how much thought is required to sign a petition?
I would rather see a proper informed debate of the topic of violence against women and media depictions, rather that knee jerk petitions trying to ban a game that has been out for over 12 months
THOSE MONSTERS
That part did make me stop and wonder, trying to recall if they ever did. Can’t say for certain though, I think I only specifically remember seeing it (out of those kinds of stores, anyway) at Big W 😛 Maaaaaybe Kmart.
Pretty sure I got my copy from there, but like you said: Kmart, Big W who knows?. I think the issue was Nintendo only had a limited run of it. Most copies went to the likes of EB Games.
I manged to get mine from Myer during their whole game clearance. Pretty lucky.
There was also someone selling just the empty steelbook cases from the US for cheap at one point, so I have some fancier packaging for it too.
One thing that I am particularly disgusted at is the sentiment that video games make people re-enact the actions on screen because it is an “active” mode of entertainment.
Some of the most disgusting things I have seen (or refused to see) have come from movies. The Human Centipede, Saw and all the other “horror” movies which depict men and women being tortured/assaulted/raped. We never hear a damned thing about it. I personally find it more disturbing to see actors portraying these scenes than I do computer rendered avatars. Why? Because regardless of how “real” games may seem these days, it is still not an actual person sitting there screaming. I understand movies are all pretend and they aren’t really hurt etc – but its the gut reaction to seeing and hearing an actual person screaming in terror. Video games do not have that effect because you can tell that it isn’t real. They are polygons on a screen. Not actors. Some may say that is a fairly weak distinction, but I have never been sickened by a video game but I refuse to watch Saw or Human Centipede because the entire premise of these movies makes me sick.
Furthermore, how many people have you seen try to smash their heads into bricks to make coins pop up? Smash TV sets to gain power ups? Swing pickaxes at walls to obtain the source block? Dig into the earth to find the Locust Horde? I doubt you would find any fantasy/sci fi re-enactments that were not done in celebration of the game they are re-enacting. Shootings, rape, kidnapping – all of these predate video games. These have been happening since the first humans wanted what the other had. They are not new and these crimes have been committed for millennia. Does it make it any better? Nope. How many rapists have got up from playing a video game and decided “Yup, that’s what Im going to do today”? I wouldn’t imagine there would be any. Those who have used shooters such as CoD or BF4 as a type of “simulator” for mass shootings already had a screw loose before they even picked up the game. They are the people who regardless of their chosen media (games, movies, novels) would have found their inspiration to commit these atrocities somewhere.
Games such as GTA V have a storyline which may feature torture, rape or murder but it is not the sole reason for the existence of the game. Usually, there is some form of character development or even redemption. Aside from the eventual killing of the bad guy for the one person left alive, most horror movies cannot claim as much. Yet Target stocks these R18+ movies. You don’t see feminists up in arms trying to shut it down.
I get that sex workers face the brunt of sexual assault as an occupational hazard, but it is incredibly naive to believe that games perpetuate violence against women any more than other media does and furthermore, no sane person would re-enact these things. To claim any media will teach a person how to treat women, how to kill, how to torture – and then compel them to go out and do it? It is a touch on the rediculous side.
…And for the fact that it is the person holding the controller who decides what the character is doing in the world itself.
It has always made me laugh to see, say a news “journalist,” mow down pedestrians or kill a prostitute (in GTA, say), and then go on to say how disgusted he is with the game…
It’s like, hey bro, you do realise you choose to do that of your own accord and is just a public display of your own inner psychology of what someone like you does when handed the controller.
While the rest of us play the story and have some fun, that guy be in a corner somewhere “raping” and murdering and re-affirming to himself how disgusting it is when people do such a thing…
Don’t pretend you’ve never killed in GTA. You’re no different to anyone else. Stop trying to take the moral high ground; it doesn’t exist.
It’s nothing to do with moral high ground. It is the fact that for anyone to actually say that GTA V is a game about violence against women is complete nonsense.
The actual theme of GTA V is that organised crime only brings chaos, deceit, broken families, mental illness and that, in the end, very few people actually succeed in a life of crime, with most people ending up dead or bankrupt.
Also, to pretend that player agency has nothing to do with choices made in an open-world game is a complete phallusy.
And, yes I have killed in GTA. Many times. But I do not pretend that Rockstar made me do it!
And, like all rational beings, any pre-Homo-sapien irrationalities are kept within the realm of fiction.
Fuckin’ A! This right here. I feel too much of an emphasis is being placed on the people who created the playing field being required to take responsibility for it, rather than the people who play the game and their terrible, sociopath behaviour in said playing field. Yeah, the depictions of women in the game aren’t great (they’re pretty shitty in point of fact and I agree with Mark on this), but it’s the player who sets the tone for the experience through their actions. This is why I feel the arguments making claims this is a rape simulator or that it ‘groom’s children into treating women as sub-human is just as flawed as saying GTA IV is ant-Semitic because it has Jewish people I could potentially kill (even though, apparently, no one is saying this). If this partition was talking about something like Rapelay, I wouldn’t disagree in the slightest, but with GTA V, some of the arguments levelled at it seem disingenuous and based on assumption, not familiarity with the game.
The one thing I find very interesting is that GTA V has been out on the market for over a year now (17 September 2013 was the release date for the last gen consoles).,..where were these complaints and petitions then??? I feel it’s only because it got re-released for PS4/Xbone (and soon to be released on PC and R* added First Person View (don’t know if the PS3/X360 versions got this) that this issue has come up.
Target has made money on the sales of GTA V from orginal release to now and as reacted to public pressure and pulled the game but yet I can see (somehow, someway) why they did it.
As @markserrels mentioned in the article
And nothing — absolutely nothing — will change until those attitudes are dead and gone.
I agree with this…Some people still see video games as something for children only when all the data has mentioned that the average age of gamers as way older…and I to would love to see these attitudes change but it’s going to take a long…long time for it to change
#MarkSerrelsforPM
Grand theft auto is shit
So is this comment, hey you’ve got something in common then!
Indeed we do
Progress through everybody dying and their children not caring what their parents hated.
Unfortunately games are in a generational transition phase. In a few decades the majority will understand gaming and we can be done with the hyperbole panic and focus on the real issues in the medium without distraction.
I was watching Sunrise when I heard about this. I wanted to shake the people who had no clue about anything talking shit.
The game is rated so that parents shouldn’t allow children to play it. It’s that simple. If you want to get a game removed, get it removed because of violence, don’t cherry pick a fucking gender. No mention of the interrogation / torture part against a male, oh no, we got to defend the helpless females. They’re a bunch of goddamn hypocrites who don’t care about equality or moving forward, god forbid they see something inappropriate against males, who gives a shit? Sure, play that game, torture that guy, oh wait a women was run over or set on fire? Better make sure no-one can ever play this game.
They’re helping no-one with this decision, by cherry picking a gender to focus on, when both males and females are both equally fucked in this game. Don’t get me wrong, I highly enjoy the game, but if the decision is to be made to remove a game, remove it for the right fuckin reasons.
I’d just like to point out the hypocrisy of the attacking party here by the way that they asked for the removal of GTA V but seem perfectly ok with Target still selling the GTA IV series of games…
The problem is the new first person mode in GTA5 on the new consoles. Their argument is that it makes things more real. Sure you could still do the same thing on the old version of GTA5 but it wasn’t first person…
Not that I agree with Target removing the game though!
Except that argument isn’t present in their actual protest. If they want to argue that, they should actually *argue* that.
And then, Target should only remove copies for the XBone and the PS4, not the 360 and ps3?
Sorry, but the personal history of a person does not magically transform a factually incorrect position into a correct one.
In some ways using a very serious issue like violence against women to pressure people is actually a lot worse than using a frivolous one.
I see it as flailing around for an easy target, no matter how irrelevant or unjustified, just out of some kind of desperation to get some kind of win in a world where they’re not getting any wins when trying to tackle the real issue.
It was signed by 41000 people who bought it for their 10 year old son/daughter.
Boom.
My reaction, is Meh, already have it pre-ordered for digital delivery. Target can choose to sell what they want, somehow though I don’t think these war-pathing ladies are going to stop at target now they have a win under their skirts.
As someone who thinks petition’s are bullshit, I find it weird that Target would react this way to 41,000 petition. I mean if they kept the game, how much business would they lose if they didn’t remove GTA, would 41,000 actually stop shopping at target? How many of that 41, 000 actually give a shit about this problem? Is it actually 41,000 different people? It worries me that companies and people are so accepting and willing to make a big change on such a flimsy form of protest.
I think part of the problem though is that their experiences have coloured their perceptions. They have this idea in their head that most / all men are going to treat women like this and that entertainment like GTA V is what pushes them to do it. They have experienced the worst that men have to offer, so they’re natural reflex is to assume that all men are willing / capable of doing it if they’re given a little push in that direction from a game / movie / whatever. They are not arguing from a rational position but an emotional one with no basis in substantiated fact. Fortunately for their campaign, there’s nothing the internet likes more than a campaign driven by emotion rather than fact.
Is violence against women a problem? Absolutely. Is this game a cause of it? I don’t think so. Will taking this game off Target’s shelves prevent even a single assault against a woman? Unlikely.
It’s a well intentioned campaign that, even in success, achieves nothing.
*Deleted*
No it is not. Comparing the two is utterly disgraceful
You’re absolutely right. I was in a foul mood all day because of this and over-reacted with that quote.
Whoops.
GTA V, at least for me, is damn-near the closest thing we have right now to a perfectly realised virtual world. I have a brand spanking new PS4 that just arrived at the office this morning, all so I could get the high-def GTA V release (already have it on PS3). GTA V is basically a real-world simulator (with an emphasis on crime should you choose to engage with the storyline – but you could totally NOT engage in crime and just explore the game world if you choose).
In real life, I can (if I choose) go to strip shows, engage prostitutes, and murder them to get my money back. I choose not to do these things in real life. I can do the same in GTA V.
Like in real life, I choose not to (weeellll … I do visit the Unicorn sometimes to watch, but I don’t kill veople (virtual people) when I do it, and I’ve used a prostitute all of twice I think and didn’t kill her either time).
“There’s no reason to hit a woman”
Mr. Mark Serrels, that article was a pleasure to read. Thank you.
Chastising and abusing the people who signed the petition, going off what you have written, only serves to prove their point. And even more so, would bring GTA even further into the realm of violence against women.
However, I feel as though we as gamers, the community and the industry, once again, have been backed into the same corner. A corner with a sign that reads; “Behave and accept, or our point will be proven”. The “our” on the sign represents different groups at any given time, but never has it represented gamers. Never does it serve OUR community, OUR blogs, OUR consoles or PC’s, OUR beloved games, or simply OUR rights to a voice like every other consumer in the country.
If we all signed a petition stating that knives are dangerous and sent it off to Target, would they stop selling knives (butter, steak, cheese knives etc.)? Yet knives ARE dangerous. Just as GTA V does depict women in a less than appropriate way at times.
I am certainly not going to lambast any of these women, especially those who have been victims of violent assault. I am going to lambast some of the statements of claim they have laid against the material in GTA V as a gross distortion of the truth however.
I’m struggling Mark. What approach do we, as a community, take? Blaming Target for making an executive business decision is nonsensical. Criticising women who have first hand accounts of sexual harassment and violence puts us in a pair of shoes more closely resembling those worn by their aggressors than their own.
I like to consider myself a man of actions and morals. But I feel like I have been presented with two incorrect paths and would be better off staying in our corner, as a spectator, under the sign that reads; “Behave and accept, or our point will be proven”…..
This, I agree 100% with everything in the article but I know that it really sucks that by voicing our disapproval will mean we are supportive of ‘rape culture’ and misogyny.
I think though that we need to take umbrage with parts of this debacle, for me the stand out points are the distortion of the truth of what GTAIV really is and the fact that were surely individuals who signed that petition with a lack of critical thinking and reasoning. Signing a petition that has been doctored to blur the lines between truth and fiction is perhaps the greatest indictment on society that we just accept what is presented to us, sharpen our pitchforks and head out to sign a petition that is factually incorrect.
This isn’t to say that I don’t empathize with sufferers of sexual abuse and think their concerns are invalid, I just feel the petition mislead individuals for greater impact. I hope the sufferers of sexual abuse find some closure and can begin to repair their lives, however I will defend my right to voice my concerns about what this survey highlighted about society in terms of critical thinking and habit of mind.
I think we can blame the uninformed masses jumping on the band wagon and for being slightly retarded about it.
OK, Target took it off their shelves. Just buy it somewhere else.
And in the grander scale of things; if this applies pressure to the industry to review the tropes and themes they use for their games, good. The industry needs this.
While most of us will say we don’t want to play a video game with a bad story, in most cases we will play the game if it has good gameplay. This reasoning allows the industry to be lazy with their stories; as a result, they use tired tropes and themes that don’t properly reflect the world we live in now.
Doubledizz the problem is the ‘snowball effect’. Apparently Sunrise ran a segment on Target banning it this morning, with a pat-on-the-back ‘good on you’ angle (as if it would be anything else). Not beyond the realms of possibility these idiots will try pressuring other retailers to follow suit. We could end up with a situation where a perfectly legal R18+ title is dropped by most major retailers.
Or even worse – if there’s enough ‘noise’ the government could re-classify and ‘refuse to classify’ (couldn’t they Mark ?), which I wouldn’t put past the wowsers we have running the joint at the moment. This is, without a doubt, bullspit – the kind of thing that happens in America, not here. I’m totally signing the 50 shades of grey petition 🙂
Will other retailers follow suit? Maybe. Will the government or Attorney General intervene and request the CB to re-evaluate the classification? Doubtful. Will the game continue to be available via a myriad of online retailers? Most definitely.
And even if the CB DID re-evaluate the game and DID give it an RC, I’m fairly certain Take 2 and Rockstar would be within their rights to take the government to court over it. And considering the party in power and their hospitality towards big business, I reckon they’d win. And the government/Attorney General knows that, which is why they’d never have the CB reclassify the game in the first place.
Excellent article with some very well thought out points. It is great to see some measured (I wont call it journalism as its opinion…) opinion on the matter from an important gaming site.
Yes we could jump in and up the ante, yes we could counter file petition after petition to make a point, but the reality is is you break it down enough – there shouldnt even be a “we”. When the discussion starts in terms of “us and them” its already game over. When we fail to empathise, when we fail to seek out the reasoning behind the petition, when we fail to be prepared to move away from our starting stance – theres no point even starting. Its just noise and fury…
I don’t agree with Target’s decision… when hearing the news I rolled my eyes… It’s Dungeons and Dragons, its Suicidal Tendancies, its Doom… all over again.
But if I stopped rolling my eyes, took a moment to empathise with those on the other side, then engage in *discussion* that can somehow be productive… well, it might be a pipe dream but its something worth aiming for.
Thankyou Mark for highlighting the points on which I need to think about – to empathise with – in regards to this. We cant just keep rolling our eyes for ever, gamers, non gamers… everyone… could do with a big dose more of trying to understand and engage in a positive way.
It’s definitely a very delicate issue, one that I would like to think adults can decide for themselves if to buy the game. Seeing as the game is R18+, only adults are “meant” to be allowed to buy the game but more often than not parents buy the latest craze because little Jimmy demands it. Hell, I know my (then) 15 year old nephew got it, then yelled at his younger brothers for playing it when it’s R18+. Now they’re all playing GTA V.
I haven’t played a GTA game since San Andreas, but from memory all interactable (story and cut-scenes) males in GTA games were always depicted as heavily into crime, gangs, mafia, drug dealing, bank robbing. You then also kill your rivals to get ahead with the story. I would argue this isn’t a fair depiction of males either.
Violence against any gender is never on, males typically don’t report violence as they feel too emasculated to ever report it so the numbers will never be accurate. Informed decisions about purchasing games is what needs to be spouted, not disallowing the choice to be made.
I don’t want to be that guy but…who cares? There are many more outlets that one can purchase the game from.
The one and only problem I have with this is it sets a precedent for other chain stores to follow suit if they choose. The way they are now, I usually price match at EB against stores like Big W and Target for a sizable amount. Without the competition, I see us paying ‘normal’ price in the $90< range for AAA titles. As for the violence against women, it’s players choice really. I don’t see the RSPCA trying to get Far Cry 4 off the shelves of chain stores.
The Sex Party just got an Upper House seat in the Vic Election. Can we get a comment from Fiona Patten?
History has shown that Australian gamers are a force to be reckoned with when they manage to organise themselves for a common goal. (eg. We started the ball rolling on R18+ ratings for games) I’m kind of hoping that this will start a huge reaction where gamers just obliterate Target’s stock piece by piece simply because we can easily gather thousands of signatures on a petition.
It’s a worrying precedent though. I can easily see more games being blatted just because one facet of them doesn’t sit right with a person regardless of all other details or the hypocritical nature of their statement. It does highlight something that bugs me though, that in our culture the life of a woman is sacred but men are expendable. What happened to the days where all life was sacred?
JB Hifi, EB Games, Big W, K-Mart, Dick Smith, Harvey Norman, David Jones, Myer…and that’s without considering the countless online choices.
Seriously…I think we’ll survive.
That’s not the point though. This could be the beginning of something much larger. Imagine if this petition had addressed, or even plans to address, all the other stores you mentioned? Some baseless and incorrect statements made against GTA V by some feminists who haven’t played the game ends up dictating what we can and can’t buy from department stores? Ridiculous. This whole process deserved a lot more discussion, yet it only listened to one side of the argument.
Scratch K-Mart off that list!
Total hypocrisy and also ignorance of other games it sells. For example, Target is still selling Red Dead Redemption, where players can lasso a woman (or man), hog tie them and throw them on train tracks for a train to run over them. That’s the players choice, they don’t have to do it. Of course RDR is a little different to GTA with the time setting, but also with the morality system for John Marston (RIP), whereas GTA is pretty much a free for all. (A morality system in GTA could be a cool addition?) But has GTA been banned purely because of the ability to pick up a woman on the street, and then kill her later? Because everything else in the game is available to do in RDR.
All I’m wondering is what kind of sad, pathetic moron actually wastes the time in their day to bother getting upset over a video game being sold at Target.
Someone call Tracey Grimshaw, this will be the biggest A Current Affair story of all time.
THE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN SAVED!
We can absolutely blame the petition.
Some of them may be victims of sexual violence and that’s horrible. But what they’re doing is a completely misguided campaign that isn’t based on fact. Their whole point is based on some idea that the game encourages sexual violence against women specifically and that such acts in a game influence real life behaviour; both of which are empirically false. that shouldn’t be “put aside” any more than GTA’s poor depiction of women should be. It’s all relevant. I’d also like to add my personal opinion that the whole point of GTA is a hyperbolic negative portrayal of humans in general. EVERYONE in GTA is an insufferable asshole, not just the women. And EVEN IF the portrayal of women is unfair (which I agree with to some degree) that isn’t what the petition is claiming.
Furthermore, regardless of whether you feel Target is guilty of cencorship (I don’t blame Target per se, just disappointed) it’s undeniably what this petition is trying to achieve. If they were just trying to spread awareness about what they perceived the content of GTA to represent, that would be one thing; but they’re not, they’re trying to actively restrict people’s access to it because they don’t agree with it (based on unsubstantiated claims), a very authoritarian approach if you ask me.
So the way I see it, we’re left with two conclusions. Either they lied intentionally for effect (which I’d rather not assume) or knew very little about the item they were trying to censor but did it anyway. Either way, it’s pretty bad and I hope this doesn’t set a precedent.
Cool. You managed to say in one sentence what took me a few paragraphs. 😛
A good point – if we’re going to accept that violence in video games doesn’t produce violent people, then we’re going to have to accept the same argument for violence against women in particular, or any subset of ‘violence’.
Not sure if posted already: https://www.change.org/p/target-continue-to-sell-grand-theft-auto-5-in-australia
Petition for Target to keep selling it.
There are too many comments on here, in my opinion that are just looking at the surface level and saying the same thing, “Oh they’re just targeting games again RAAAAGE” and “why is this game any different from any other form of media that show the same thing”.
I’d like to remind people that this petition was raised by a legitimate person who was affected mentally and physically by what is possible in the new console versions of GTA5. Sure, the same thing can be done in the version released last year but their argument is based on the new first person mode and how they believe it is much more realistic.
The sex-workers themselves should not be ridiculed because of their profession and thought of as someone less then others, they are still human and deserve respect. No-one knows what they have been through and clearly they think that this petition was for a good cause. It wasn’t like it was a bunch of old uninformed people created the petition. If the petition was signed by so many people then clearly people have an issue and deserve to be heard.
Don’t get me wrong, I thing GTA5 is an awesome game but that’s my opinion. Other people have theirs and I respect that.
We can all still get GTA5 from other sources so let’s not get carried away here…
The claim is that you can commit sexual violence against women in GTA5. This is not true. It’s not possible. The only sexual acts are either paid for or are achieved at the end of a date. There’s no violence that then provides any sort of sexual act at all. Go on a date with a romance interest in the game and hit her and see what happens. Are people getting confused as to what sexual violence actually is? I think people are getting mixed up between violence against women and sexual violence. Whilst not mutually exclusive they are actually two different things.
Maybe people should fact-check what was written in that petition before making a decision. “Killing women for health points” or anyone in that game is false. The statement about the mortality rate are true but she pins the cause of death on men specifically – women on women violence, drug overdose, motor-vehicle accidents and other relevant factors don’t exist?
“It also links sexual arousal and violence” – Where does she get her sources from?
I have played the game thoroughly and I don’t recall a mission/storyline quest where I enacted a heinous crime and a female character was made to take the blame.
I am sorry for their authors’ experience with violence but the article is extremely opinionated. The most irritating part is that the statements are openly made without the backup of where they obtained their sources from.
It seems they pulled the pic from an article from an Australian Business article:
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/grand-theft-auto-features-first-person-sex-with-prostitutes-2014-11 – That doesn’t seem to help the situation.
Not seeing a lot to support, here, aside from the obvious tip-toeing around victims of horrific abuse, which really just means politely and firmly saying, “No, you’re wrong, here’s why,” instead of grabbing the torches and pitchforks.
Sensitivity does NOT mean being so leery of offending delicate sensibilities that we simply fold in the face of any complaint, no matter how unreasonable.
They’re fundamentally misguided and making a lot of the same arguments we’ve seen from the pro-censorship lobbyists for years. Arguments which have been proven wrong, and shouldn’t be allowed to stand.
Point 1: There’s plenty of evidence against video games altering your values and influencing your behaviour. Games don’t make us more violent, no matter what FOX ‘news’ tells you. Against men OR women. We’re over this, but it’s something we need to keep refuting when assholes use it to push an agenda that interferes with us.
Grudging Counter-point 1: I can see some reason behind (which I don’t agree with, but only by my gut) arguing that there may be a difference between the effect on children vs adults. And I can see that ‘softer’ unwanted elements can be more insidious for being less obviously absurd.
Walking around the city with a rocket launcher and blowing up cop cars is so patently and obviously unrealistic and unbelievable that there’s no potential for it to blur with reality at all. With your in-game immortality, lack of consequences for actions, and an infinite supply of eventually-faceless civilians, machineguns are treated more like super-soakers.
But when ‘that crazy guy who is kinda cool in some ways’ slaps a woman to keep her in line? It’s less obviously absurd, to some kids. Especially in households where young kids see that behaviour in real life. THERE can be an argument for the hazards of normalizing behaviour.
Point 2: Even if we accept the flawed premise that children are more impressionable and video games have greater influence in their formative years… it’s an R18 game. They’re not meant to be playing it.
If you have a problem with kids playing an adults-only game, take it up with the parents who are buying it for them, or get the stores who are breaking the law to enforce it better. You don’t tell stores not to stock it so adults can’t buy it either. Just like we don’t tell Coles/Woolies to ditch their alcohol section because under-18s have got their hands on booze, or tell the local servo to stop stocking smokes because they could be harmful to kids.
Point 3: And this is probably the most important one: What they’re asserting (that the game endorses and rewards violence against women) is untrue.
GTA5 portrays some violence against women – and women specifically, as part of the narrative, not just gunning down bystanders in a sandbox – but it portrays it in a negative light. As something ugly and violent, a negative behaviour of a bad person.
The game does the fucking opposite of endorse this behaviour. It puts a funhouse mirror magnifying glass over various aspects of society to expose and distort so that we can see, through the exaggeration, just how ridiculous ‘normalized’ behaviours are.
Nothing escapes unscathed. Radio shock jocks, welfare-state know-it-all liberals, greedy heartless selfish conservatives, stock traders, new-age englightenment, LA hardbody yummy mummies and trophy wives, paparazzi, celebrities, big government, law enforcement, beach bums, meth-head rednecks, strippers, hookers (and their clients), gangsta thug wannabes, homophobes, disco-muscle beachside bodybuilders, twitter-twats, everyone gets a serve. No-one comes out looking good. No behaviour is endorsed, only mocked.
The entire game is wall-to-wall parody of everything America and everything ‘MURICA. Everything shown in its worst light. Something as simple as seeing a therapist gets lampooned hard to show all the ugly imperfections. And domestic violence, violence against women is no exception. It is not glorified. It is not endorsed. And it is no more ‘normalized’ than is necessary to show it in the ugly light it deserves.
Maybe if the complainers bothered to play the game, they’d get that. But it seems it’s far easier to blame something you don’t understand because it’s faster and easier and maybe you’ll actually see some results that can let you pretend you’re making a fucking difference because god knows any REAL differences are just so hard to make that you NEED a stupid and obvious lie to get by.
And I can sympathize with that. But I also want them to leave my bloody video games alone, especially if all the other assholes who want games gone think they can use this as a foot in the door to fuck with my hobby. So yes, it’s still worth pointing out how very, very wrong they are.
*applauds*
This. This x1000
I think this is a false dichotomy “Female characters in Grand Theft Auto are poorly drawn; they’re either ‘prostitutes’ or wailing, nagging buffoons”
To back this up think of the heist members you can choose Paige Harris an expert hacker and Taliana Martinez a getaway driver. Neither fall under this narrow character dichotomy you have drawn.
The outrage of this whole situation for me is that the petition lies about in game content. for example you can run over as many women as you like in this game. its not going to increase you HP. Makes me think that the people who put this petition together never actually played the game they just read some biased reviews or articles on it and there was no further research required.
Male characters in Grand Theft Auto are poorly drawn; they’re either ‘degenerates’ or narcasistic, criminal buffoons. The handful that remain inevitably become simpleton stereotypes. There are very few men in the world of Grand Theft Auto that exist outside this spectrum. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t play Grand Theft Auto, that doesn’t mean it’s worthless as a cultural artefact — it simply means that we have to accept that the game has problems, specifically with its depiction of men. We have to accept this.
How about instead of a petition we get the #whatshouldtargetbannow going.
Also wonder what will happen if you have it on lay buy?
The issue isn’t in the games themselves. The issue is that if a kid wants an R18+ game all they have to do is get a parent up to the counter to say yes to it. The law needs to be made equal to that of alcohol or cigarettes, whereby a game can’t be sold to someone if it’s thought they’re buying it for a minor. The way the law stands today, nobody understands the severity of the rating. Nobody even looks at it.
Because as someone working in games retail, I’m sick to death of explaining ratings and reasonings and describing scenes, and parents buying it anyway because ‘they’ve seen worse on TV’ or ‘all their friends play it’ or, my personal favourite, ‘this game is strong violence? The WORLD is strong violence’.
“Firstly, Grand Theft Auto‘s depiction of women is problematic” NO ITS NOT, its in line with Hollywood movies and TV dramas in general. What a pathetic world we live in. Games that are 18+ are for ADULTS not children, I don’t see this being done to remove movies from the cinemas or tv shows from the air. again what a pathetic world we live in and women just get all emotional and run on their emotions and DONT THINK, yes its ok for men to talk about these things regardless of how much women want to silence us. all I can say is grow up and get a life.
I didn’t read the full petition so correct me if I’m wrong but from what I did read it was wanting to prevent young males (i read that as under 18) from getting a warped view on how to treat women. If parents aren’t seeing the R18 rating and questioning whether they should buy it for a 12yr old I think the blame falls on the parent not on target for selling it.
Apologies if this has already been talked about, I didn’t have time to read all the comments cos I’m at work
I am male, I never liked GTA, never played any of them. My GF loves GTA, she has every single one and I have watched her play it and laugh at her as she giggles as a woman in her mid 30s now as she does unspeakable things to men and women in the games.
We are not a monkey see, monkey do species. GTA when you reflect on it is a parody of life, it makes a mockery of pretty much every stereotype. Even in GTA5 it does not encourage you to be violent to women, it just doesn’t have limitations other games typically do so you can be violent, if you want.
I think it is good that Australia has an R18+ category now and it is probably best for kids not to play any of the GTA games, however, refusing to sell R18+ games to adults is more perverse than any of the content in any of the GTA games. Thankfully, one retailer making a stand to meet the whims of people overseas who do not shop with them is only going to make the real customers go to their opposition who actually listen to their local customers.
I believe women are crying wolf over a lot of trivial bullshit of late, the more feminists pull stunts like this the more it is going to drive the moderate majority against the self-destructive third wave. It is not men that are pushing this, my GF went from feminist to moderate to now anti-feminism, it is losing a lot of women over crap like this and hounding the bad shirt scientist that are driving women away that don’t want to be associated with unhappy women and their chronic negativity.
Man. So many goddamn comments already.
But! I would 1000% back a female main character in a GTA game. And let her be accosted by random men catcalling or trying to sexually assault her. But, and here’s the kicker, you can then kick the ever loving and absolute shit out of them. That’s a power fantasy I can absolutely back.
I think they have that already – it’s called GTA Online.
Not really the same, and you know it.
You’ve heard of a sarcastic joke before, right?
Not on the internet. That’s way too hard.
Hopefully this will inspire Rockstar to focus on creating games with more imaginative IP’s and avoid all this mess. Such a waste of good open world programming talent.
Criminal culture has always been a useless and terrible IP, whether it be in video games, movies or tv.
Is it possible that we can talk about this rationally without it turning into a whole “Violence against women? What about violence against men!?” thing? That just devalues the whole issue for both sides…
Sure we could. Is there any chance that the sycophants that created this pile of half truths and misinformed moralisations will be rational though? Of course, pointing and saying ‘they started it’ is no way to have a constructive conversation but we’re not exactly dealing with stable people here.
Sorry if already posted – this is an interesting mainstream article::
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/games/grand-theft-auto-and-the-problem-with-banning-violent-video-games-and-media-20141204-11zq3h.html
Hit the nail on the head.
Holy crap! Have you seen the comments though? Talk about willful ignorance!
GTA:V First Person Prostitute Australian Censored…: http://youtu.be/pywJ0vpSq4s
This is something I constantly struggle with. People’s concerns over violence against women are valid but arbitrarily singling out a video game as the cause of this is not. Is the issue here education? Is the issue that people are making base value judgements and generalisation on video games without properly understanding the medium? I mean shouldn’t we maybe try and up our discourse? Shouldn’t it be capable of clearer, holistic communication where concerns from everyone are able to be heard and put into perspective?
If there’s one thing I think people should learn from this is to maybe let there be discussion. Don’t assume that everyone who thinks differently is an ignorami and incapable of understanding your position. This isn’t how progress is made. It boggles my mind that people just throw blanket generalisations about being in a “PC world” whilst ignoring social concerns but I find it equally as frustrating when people would like to decide what others experience with having almost zero knowledge of exactly what they’re fighting against. On one hand, I’d like to support the sentiment and I hope a whole lot of victim-blaming doesn’t go on here but on the other hand I really think this needs to stop in the form it is now. Video games are becoming a scapegoat and whilst increased discussion on the depiction of women in gaming is a great thing, how is it beneficial when the entire medium and its potential for storytelling and experience is boiled down to looking at representation of women in specific scenes, in a vacuum, coupled with misconceptions from a singular perspective?
Why isn’t there a discussion where not just men and women, game designers and journalists are actually able to challenge these consistent accusations in a respectful way with the intent of education without fear of blanket condemnation. I think that we can criticise these arguments without demeaning the sentiment or the people behind them, the only fear I have is that they don’t see it that way. It’s frustrating to have to stay away from huge blanket statements over the medium that are flat-out misguided and allow these misconceptions to mould into truth over time because no one seems capable of holistic discourse besides Mark.
I’m afraid we’ll never have the Trainspotting or Monster of video games that actually explores ideas like apathetic youth, poverty, misogyny, violence against women etc. through entirely unconventional means. If these films were video games we’d point our finger and say Aileen was demonized and poorly represented, we’d say Trainspotting promotes drug use because Renton loves heroin. Games use entirely different means to put these ideas in perspective and I’ve had a lot of these games (including GTA V) actually open myself up to prejudices I didn’t understand I had. I think that GTA V is far more conscious of itself than people believe and whilst the game is clearly for men, I don’t agree that its depiction of women is poor. I think people actually hold prejudices or find it easier to just say it presents women poorly because it’s GTA and it OBVIOUSLY does. I mean it’s not like it specifically comments on a woman’s role in media at all. It’s not like game show hosts are depicted of exploiting and sexualising women and young girls, it’s not like the main character isn’t presented as being out of touch and controlling, it’s not like the first prostitute you meet in the game actually SHOWS you she can do a man’s work better but basically tells you a prostitute is all she can be in this world.
Does that forgive the lack of female perspective to explore these ideas fully? No. Does that excuse questionable attempts at gender-related humour? Not really. But these exist and by not speaking about them people have no idea of the breadth of representation any fragment of society can have in games and we’re STILL exploring how to do that. People simply aren’t going to know or respect it until the basic level of discourse improves.
I think a lot of people really fail to see GTA5 for what it was. A very masculine story, dealing with some very real male issues. The dichotomy of the testosterone-fueled family man Michael, reconciling aggression and ambition with stability and sensitivity. Franklin’s lack of father figures or mentors in a society with no fixed rites of passage. Him looking up to Michael, with the only alternative sources of elder guidance being the rock-and-a-hard-place options of gangsta thugs or his new-age feminist Aunt, unable or unwilling to provide guidance. And Trevor, despite his devil-may-care front, very obviously sensitive about so many issues – whether his complicated issues with his mother, or the difficult-to-express and not wholly requited fraternal love. (He genuinely grieved for his surrogate brother. Check his tattoos. He felt true betrayal by the unrequited feeling, with Michael staying out of contact.) An issue that men are conditioned not to talk about, unable to effectively communicate about, thus resolve.
They’re real issues, and they’re masculine issues. And when you crop away the ‘all things to everyone’ sandbox of ludo-narrative dissonance in all its well-publicized tank-rampage/hooker-killing glory, the actual story hit a lot of really mature notes. It didn’t seem to come up with any resolutions, but it at least showed how those struggles play out, and how they affect the world around us to create the evils we see.
So it wasn’t a feminine story, so it couldn’t be all things to all people. When will the women get their well-told, deep, mature narratives? I don’t know. That’s not relevant to what GTA5 set out to – and did – accomplish. It’s annoying that it gets criticized for what it wasn’t and didn’t try to be, never promised to be, rather than what it was.
With the petition I wonder how many people signed it on what they think grand theft auto is. Grand theft auto since the very first game has been labelled as a game where you can beat up prostitutes and has never been able to shake that label. If it was just about this it would never sell as well or have lasted this long.
There are some interesting female characters in GTAV like that fantastic bounty lady (It always bugs me no one mentions her). I know there’s no ‘cool gangster’ female character but there’s some depth and humanity to Amanda, Tracey, and even the hilarious aunt Denise. You see their lives (through little events and interactions) and they make human choices. At the end of Michaels story I felt a genuine love for his messed up family.
I feel a bit bummed that this ban is happening to a game whose story and characters I really loved.
I agree that the petition was the wrong way to go about things – I don’t think it does anything to address the overall issue. I do think that retailers like Target however fail at realising that not all games are for children. I would like to see the age checks enforced, and to not display the game alongside games for kids. This photo is pretty telling of the lack of awareness on Target’s part. http://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/k/2014/12/GTA.jpg
I also think that it makes visible the bigger cultural issue and I think you touch on that quite well already, but it’s worth mentioning that it makes visible the overall issue within our mainstream culture around women and violence. it adds to the permissiveness that says violence toward women is no big deal. That’s not intentional on the game’s part, it’s inadvertent, but so much of the toxic stuff in society is like that – it’s insidious and we don’t realise it until we really scrutinise things in detail.
Target doesn’t sell Irn Bru? Rabble rabble!
I am not angry at Target, I am angry at the petition. This game isn’t aimed at them, and sexual violence is still going to exist when it’s gone.
I find the majority of problems is that people do not understand that there are games designed only for adults. this game is for adults only. I don’t care if the game is hidden, it’s just silly that we’ve had to remove it, simply because some people were offended and misinformed.
@markserrels you made the headline story on news.com.au
I’m not sure if being mentioned on news.com.au is good or not though 😛http://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gamers-fight-back-against-targets-ridiculous-decision-to-ban-grand-theft-auto-v/story-e6frfrt9-1227144736337
I might be wrong, but is ‘Game of Thrones’ available at Target? If so why the hypocrisy?
The derogatory sexual behaviour and violence towards women, in multiple media forms of this story should also be banned from Target!
Just sayin!
Next time Kmart Tyre & Auto service my car I’m going to tell them I plan to use it to run pedestrians over.
I blame the 41,000 retarded 4wd driving soccer mums who wanted to speak to the manager.
@cookingmama Sorry. My manager will be out in a second.
No one to blame? How about attention-seeking narcissistic feminists who get a game pulled for fabricated reason? What about the person at target who made the decision to pull the game off shelves when they should’ve known better than to listen to the feminist-SJW rabble. There’s at least 2.
Its just marketing. Creating social capital among its primary demographic using corporate social responsibility as a strategy. It says to it’s loyal customers, we are more ethical and trustworthy than Kmart or big w. It’s that simple. A successful media panic just before parents for out money on gifts. Cheaper than as placement, more tactical than TV.
I blame the anti-choice “feminist” against the Collective Shout (could this be a hate group against women, posing as something for women?):
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/melinda-tankard-reist-feminism-and-being-pro-life-can-you-have-all/
How exactly is GTAs depiction of women anymore problematic than that of the males in the game?
For every (for lack of a better word) ditzy female character there is a dumb male character or dudebro taking the piss.. for every hooker or woman in general killed to gain a small amount of cash you can get the same thing from any of the male NPCs or police officers..
But lets be honest here, unless you’re bored and killing time how many people are doing this instead of actually playing the game?
Good article, but I am still a little irate that they continue to sell Fifty Shades of Grey. I can’t talk about GTA though, only played the fourth which I started on Monday!
So no more GTA at Target. What about all the movies that feature violence towards women?
What about all those Rap lyrics that talk about women in a derogatory manner ?
What about the G-String and bra sets for 6 year old girls? Oh thats right they already removed those. Maybe Target is just kind a stupid! Just like their customers.
Lets get 1 million signatures to keep GTA5 on shelves
WE
CAN
DO
THIS
GUYS
This seems a tad misguided. GTA V is a very violent game, almost sociopathic in its disregard for treating people with kindness (which is why playing it can be cathartic, and I did have a fun time with GTA V). However, it’s a people-murdering simulator, not a woman-murdering simulator. Yes there are prostitutes. Yes, you can kill them, just like you can kill beachgoers, store employees, people on the side-walk, people in restaurants, people in the military bases, police officers – in fact, about the only type of people you CAN’T kill are children, because they are conspicuously absent.
I’ve only ever played GTA V to completion, and the only other GTA game I’ve played was IV, and I only played a few hours of that (the PC port was RUBBISH). I may be wrong, and if I am, please correct me, but I can’t recall a mission in which you are rewarded or told to kill or maim prostitutes. I can’t recall anything of that sort. Any violent action towards women also occurs against men – for instance, Trevor can take women to the cult on the mountain to be eaten, but he also takes men up there, too.
I agree that the portrayal of women in GTA V is…. well… bad, but the game doesn’t encourage violence against women anymore than it encourages violence against all people. I mean, Fallout games have prostitutes, and you can kill them as well, just like you can kill many people in the Fallout universe, but that’s not being petitioned against, is it?
I’m just curious as to why the petitioners feel that GTA V encourages violence against women. Is GTA V misogynistic? To a certain extent, I think, but I don’t think it encourages anymore violence against women than it does against men, animals and the environment.
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened down under
I really cannot blame Target. The very moment this petition was created, it put Target in an ethical and financial quandary where no matter what they chose to do, they would be losing the businesses of a group of people. Now, if you think about it, when the choice for Target is either enraging and losing gamers vs enraging and losing MOTHERS, you’ll see there was not even a reason to doubt the outcome.
I don’t know Mark. I agree that their concerns come from a genuine experience over a genuine issue but they used that very valid concern to raise damaging misinformation and panic in a very public, yet very personal channel. (Sent directly to people’s emails via Change.org, a website that they have learned to trust to inform them about social injustice.) If I have valid concerns about whatever but I choose to use them in unfair ways that damage the businesses of an innocent third party and the reputation of a whole group of people, I believe that validity is revoked.
In my view it’s a poor quality company. It may be profitable but my experience with other Wesfarmers owned companies suggests the management is mostly clueless.
I can’t disagree more with this article.
Name a single male character in grand theft auto that isn’t a clown, a stereotype or a bad role model?
If you are playing GTA hoping to find realistic depictions of people or role models or fair representation for males or females you don’t understand the franchise.
This is why it is oriented to ADULTS, and we as adults can choose to play whatever we want, you don’t like it? Don’t buy it, but don’t play to have the moral high ground in order to tells us what can we or can’t consume, specially if you don’t have the capacity of being equally critic to the representation of other minorities, majorities and male gender in the games.
Sorry, I couldn’t be bother reading the whole thing, is it banned in Target only or is it banned in all stores around Australia?
Oh no, Kotaku thinks something is “problematic”.
You absolutely can blame Target for their decisions. 41,000 signatures on an online petition can come from anywhere; ie. including people who do not shop at Target at all, let alone Target chains in Australia specifically. There is plenty of opportunity for likeminded people abroad to dogpile onto such a petition for the express purpose of making a statement, and has little to do with Target’s actual, real customer base. Whether this move is a good or bad move is debatable, but their actions were not a result of a real consumer movement, and they are totally guilty of capitulating to dumb demands.
And I don’t know why you’re so eager to build a pillow fort around these people. Did their expressed outrage not result in an action being taken? Was GTA V not available on Target shelves until they demanded its removal? Then yes, they are responsible and they can CERTAINLY be blamed. You are being extremely dishonest in your writing when you pass all fault onto the product and can’t assign a single shred of culpability to anybody else involved.
Get real. Same for your pleas for “respect”. I don’t know where we got this idea that everybody’s concern has to be treated seriously by default. I don’t care IF you’re concerned. I care about WHY you’re concerned. That’s how we start to separate frivolous, meritless concerns and fears from real, legitimate ones. And what I see here is company caving in to a group of internet denizens (again, NOT Target customers), who think the solution to achieving female-positive media is banning all the others they don’t like.
You have really bent over backwards to justify this kind of crap; choosing to lecture people on how their pastime needs to mature before moral crusaders give it a seal of approval. Because THEN games will be totally serious and culturally significant, right? When we get rid of all the prostitutes and “problematic” stuff? How can you take yourself seriously. I’d actually be kind of shocked if you actually believed half of the crap you wrote, and weren’t just furiously performing mental gymnastics to make this seem like some teachable moment.
Please sign my petition asking change.org to ban the offensive petition demanding Target remove 50 Shades Of Grey from their shelves. This petition attacks sufferers of mental ill-health and stigmatises the vulnerable. https://www.change.org/p/change-org-ban-the-stop-selling-fifty-shades-of-grey-in-all-target-stores-petition?
Banning a game because of you can treat women in the game the same way you can treat men, shows the sexism of the people attempting to ban it. I think this opinion piece says it best (NSFW) “Morons move to ban GTA V because… sexism?” http://www.dan-isms.com/2014/12/morons-move-to-ban-gta-v-because-sexism.html