underachieving? im the youngest person i know to get into the film editors guild. i'm 20, play games when ever i can and probably making more money than she does

Trevor6887

Who said marriage and kids is a sign of adulthood? This person clearly is stuck in the 19th century.

anarfox

@Brian Ashcraft: I'm from Toronto and I think I just heard the Ban Hammer.

Miksho

sigh.... its the game addicted gamers that are most likely underachievers. but the ones (and theres many) who are organized gamers who like to play at least 2-4 hours a day, like myself, do have a living. It's unfair to classify gamers in general as low life 30 yr old children. And its sexist to immediately disagree with this article because she is a woman, though, she is right in many cases - on the other hand, how does she prove that women who get out and like to shop around are more mature than game addicts? it is to her advantage that she can state her opinion (and this is what it is), whether or not others agree. But, from what is taken out of context for this article in Kotaku, she is very wrong and too specific in what she says. Her nit picking on Halo gamers as a bunch, classifying them immature, can only indicate that she, herself, is not a gamer and does not understand how it is to be one. Its a stereotypical issue, such as if I were to say, all high school football jocks are cheating dim wits.
Anyways, for those promising achievers who also love video games, kudos, and heres to putting down that stereotype (hopefully) so we are done being viewed upon as only geeks and nerds. Especially from the female sex.

MajorWedgie

If "underachieving" means that you choose to spend your discretionary free time actively building relationships with family and friends that live all over the world instead of shopping, scrap booking, playing Bunko or visiting bars or strip clubs, so be it.

What people don't understand is that for many of us, it is not so much about playing the game that is fun, it's about getting to interact and experience it with others that you care about. It is another way to connect with people period!

Ohh and "LIVE" costs less than $10.00 a month. If only I could get my wife to spend that amount on her monthly shopping!

chrisvioxxx

@SG79: @Torusan:

Indeed, my bad

NeoAkira

This is what the 80s stereotype of a gamer has evolved into. The gaming community (guys and girls) has yet to be given a realistic, modern glance by mainstream media. We're seen as choosing games in lieu of other pursuits, and who can blame them? For every twenty normal gamers who co-exist normally with everyone else, you have a guy leaving his family for WoW.

The fact of the matter is, gaming is a hobby. We do it to pass the time. Yet we're still not at the point where we can liken our gaming to how other people (and many of us) read books. I really hope to be around when one person compliments another by calling them "well-gamed." And we could definitely use less of those obligatory sitcom episodes where a character gets hyponitzed by the irresitable lure of a video game (that is still played with a joystick and creates 8-bit sounds effects).

Miksho

The woman is a feminist, obviously. We should just handle her the way we usually handle feminists. Ignore her and she'll go away.

Atheist Jew

Hey, how about we all band together and flip this article on it's head.

Over Achieving Women too judgmental of Men claiming men are too immature based on hobbies.

Puts a nice perspective on who is actually not ready to commit don't it?

Black-Dog-Howls

I know I am a CHILD-MAN - but somehow I've managed to acquire a wife, a mortgage, three dogs and a paunch.

Reality gets you in the end man - it's a fucker!

riler

@jBat17: I would like to nominate you for Hyper Multi-tap.

Gunhaver

And I thought the "Gamer Girl" Magazine was sexist. Dang. This is a huge example of how it goes both ways.

k1773n

underachieving? not me. i have 4000G Achievement points for my Gamerscore!

jBat17

Times have changed. Video games aren't just for kids anymore. Playing video games is just as legitimate a hobby as playing a round of golf or going fishing or refinishing furniture.

What's she going to write about next? People who use email have no respect for the written word? Airlines lack the elegance of rail travel?

rawg

lol ya know, I actuly signed up to their site so i could bitch the shit out of them. good god this is sexist bullshit if iv ever heard it

Nimlygos

@anthrax_man:
A "fag"?

Brian Ashcraft

This piece was brought up on the Tom Leykis show today. He read the article (which made incredibly false/man-hate-sounding generalizations), then had Hymowitz on the show to respond.
After listening to her, I'll say that she meant well, but couldn't phrase her points in a way that wasn't quite so.....Skeksis like in its execution.

daibondo

oh Ashcraft STOP REPORTING and PLAY BRAWL PLAY IT FOR THOSE OF US THAT CANT!!!!!!!!

STOP REPORTING and PLAY BRAWL PLAY IT FOR THOSE OF US THAT CANT!!!!!!!!

STOP REPORTING and PLAY BRAWL PLAY IT FOR THOSE OF US THAT CANT!!!!!!!!

srry about the spam but i really mean it STOP!

anthrax_man

@Luke Plunkett: If that's doing it wrong, I don't want to be doing it right.

InsomniaBob

So sitting at home, playing videogames and saving your money by not driving to the store to shop, driving to a restaurant to spend more money on food, then driving somewhere else to hang out with your friends and spend more money is a more productive lifestyle.

I agree with what one person said on here about the female-friendly environments. Half the time all of them start complaining about what another said, then they say things back and pretty soon they all hate each other, while I'm just working my job not having to worry about this. I worked in a High School Kitchen for a while and I was the only guy and this is basically all that went on. Even women I work with tell me women are a pain to work with. I don't have problems with them though.

DuoWing

@Luke Plunkett: I second that.

CeeJay005

Fascinating, another person I don't care about is telling me that because I play video games I am not contributing to society. Nevermind that the game industry is not only a highly significant part of the American economy at this point, and also that no other form of media such as TV or movies is subject to this scrutiny. I guess there really is no such thing as bad publicity.

Stormrider (XBL: Lilarcor)

"Single young males, or SYMs, by contrast, often seem to hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3 and, in many cases, underachieving." First off, underachieving based on the standards of what? Just because women seem to be achieving more and men seem to be achieving less does not mean that is necessarily the case; perhaps women just have the opportunities now to achieve higher than in the past due to a less sexist society. Also, if all men are doing is "hooking up" who the hell are we hooking up with? Let me see, let me see....oh thats right, women. Seems they have time to do more than just go shopping and eat with friends. My girlfriend and I both spend some time drinking, playing halo 3, and shockingly, being successful overachievers. But whatever.

Salacious_Sloth

This is just a common attitude. I was watching "Room Raiders" for some odd reason the other night, and in one room, the ladies found a console, some games, and some controllers, they acted like it was cool, then turned into a "Not" type situation and started rambling about how immature the games made him seem..

Of course, it went on even further, another room had some fuzzy monster slippers, and they started talking about how they wanted a real man, not some kid. Then the other guy had, I forget, I think some baseball cards or some stuffed animals and they also started talking about how immature and childish it is.

What I'm trying to say is I'm not surprised at all: the concept of "adulthood" is just a warped, sociological mess that is even more so complicated by the legal implications of it. Society today is one that many think wants children to grow up too fast, yet when adults display more youthful or innocent traits, they are condemned for it?

One thing is for sure, as a whole, overpopulation is still a huge debate. The economy, the environment, religion, politics, war, everything is in a state of turmoil that doesn't exactly make for "happy times ahead". If the author had her way, and people became part of a strictly procreation, work forward society, what would really happen to the world stage? Let's just say world war 3 and the next great depression would happen all over again.

Of course, we could just quickly rip her apart, in asking this

"while packing leisure hours with shopping, traveling and dining with friends."

How is it perfectly acceptable, grown up, intelligent, and productive for women to enjoy the above activties, when it is essentially all leisure and the same activities they have been enjoying since their early tweens?

I just don't see how shopping, traveling, and dining are these awe inspiring, world changing experiences as opposed to anime, gaming, and the internet.

blurayforever143

It actually isn't a particularly bad article. The quotes are out of context; the article is aiming more towards women who encounter problems in the dating world, and tries to explain that men aren't settling down anymore.

2 things. First, she's probably oblivious of the figures that show how often young men move around in careers these days. The average amount of time people, at least in the radio industry, spend at one job has decreased from about 30 to about 2.5 years over the past few decades. So for me, there's no way in hell I'm getting married until I reach the point in my career where I want to be, and that probably won't be until - you guessed it! - I'm around 30.

Second, this writer is just backing up what I see as a female obsession with men as mates. She brings up Maxim multiple times, but what is Cosmopolitan magazine? The number one magazine for women in the country? Every cover: "Sex tips, fashion tips, makeup tips, and one random article with some cultural value." Uh-oh - is that... totally worthless? Even Playboy has had interviews with the likes of John Lennon and major political figures through history. Cosmo, on the other hand, is pretty much 100% written for women to help them pick up men. Maxim, sure, has some dating advice, but mostly, it's articles, and some pictures and interviews. This woman putting down the male gamer just reinforces my perception that the female culture in this country is pretty much obsessed with dating and marrying men. It's stupid. This was going somewhere more conclusive, but I'm tired.

FitzRhapsody

shit, id reply to her, but im too busy quitting my job and using child support money to buy Rez HD.

TheIrishNinja (PSN), IrishNinja2099 (XBL)

Chill out.
This article is just aimed at women's natural gullibility. It's just telling them what they want to hear.

Tyrannical

Wow. That made little to no sense. There are just as many guys working their asses of in school/at work in order to succeed as there are women. Most of the gamers I know are working jobs and/or going to school full time to get very impressive degrees. Somehow because they spend their free time bonding with each other over a friendly death match, they're not as impressive as the girls who go out to eat with friends?

hrunting

I work week on week off with 96 hours committed to work one week and gaming for maybe 30-40 hours on my week off. I will enjoy games until the day I die or stroke out. How about instead of over-achieving, shopping, traveling, or dining out; you spend sometime with your guy in his hobby. Not all games involve killing and death, some are rather social. Open up your mind and try something new for once.

gogators88

One day it had to happen, women are now writing about me, the world over. Heaven shall soon know my name.

Antiflow

@Maniclysane: LOL so true.

thereturnoftheufo

so if i was a fag then i would have my life in order!?!?!?...thats B.S.

anthrax_man

I've always been an underachiever, and I feel I may always be one. Perhaps it's because I've just given up on caring anymore. Am I a "child man"? Nope. Am I a person who enjoys my hobbies and common forms of entertainment? Just like most healthy people in this world? Of course.

Archem

@NeoAkira: A female wrote the article. Yeah...

Torusan

I could pwn that newb in Haloz any day.

dowingba

"drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3 and, in many cases, underachieving"

And? Sounds good to me.

Luke Plunkett

@NeoAkira:

That's a woman who wrote that opinion article.

SG79

@Samos42:
Its the minimize the browser to popup MS Access when the boss walks by kinda deal. Except Ash's boss is across an ocean, and minimizing a video game would be like hitting the TV source button, only to bring up some random TV channel that has nothing to do with video game...hmm. Yes, why aren't you playing more brawl Bash?

SpishackCola

I'm fine with the image she gives of men that age. Sure, there are a lot of exceptions, but it's understandable how she sees men that way.

My problem with the article is how she paints a picture of how all mid-20's women are mature overachievers who put the "child-man" to shame.

I know respected geneticists, high-paid lawyers, and many more people with "real" jobs who play video games, often even more than me, a 22-year-old college student. Journalism sickens me.

idkmybffgreg

@WatershipDown: 20th century as well, it started in the 60's and it got really bad in the late 80's and early 90's.

The problem I see is with the obsessive kind, but hey, they existed long before videogames, as (for example) the bowling obsessive that used to go and play 3 nights of the week... the more things change...

I just realized how bitter I sounded :)

Now is there a reason why the gaming community in general has to be so defensive about their hobby? It's like every negative comment against gaming/gamers is rebutted by a pack of rabid wolves. I think criticism is healthy, even if it's a bold generalization like the one Kay Hymowitz made.

zoesch

The 'playground of drinking and hooking up' part is an odd way to take a shot at young men. Who are they hooking up with most of the time? Women who are also out drinking and hooking up(not counting the gay bars here to make a point). It just goes to show how out of touch this person is if she doesn't think both men and women spend lots of time doing this stuff.

Abno

Hanging out, drinking, and playing Halo 3. I can't imaginge anything better in the fucking world, except if we were playing Halo 1, because it's still better. Or even if we were playing Super Metroid... If there was actually some way to work hooking up in there, why on earth would anyone WANT to achieve more than that? You're already in heaven!

omnibot2000XL

Are there people in the video game populous who are underachievers? Sure. Plenty of people I knew in High School are on the same couch as they were back then bong in one hand, controller in the other, and as most people have discovered a good number of encounters online with people with names with 420 or such would reveal a great number of underachievers play video games.

However, this is not MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE argument just as most other categories or labels people assign a group of people are often times misconstrued. I don't blame her for her position, or her argument, she's just awfully shallow when it comes to addressing a demographic. People who play video games (Halo 3 or otherwise) are not underachieving man-children. Some people who are man-children are active video game players. They are also probably poker players, probably went to high school, could possibly identify with some major religion and would probably consider themselves part of the homo sapien classification.

Shoddy journalists provide weak evidence, not journalists provide shoddy, weak evidence... =_=

art_zombie

@Roflcopter_Down: Agree

foxuser17

There are several reasons people are marrying later if that's your marker. And let me point out that many people who get married SHOULDN'T HAVE!

I personally am and have been committed to one woman for a long time now (5 years) and we will probably get married in about 3-4 more. Why? Because there are things we both want to do in our lives and things we should do--stuff that's fun, and stuff that's more responsible so we have a better shot at making it when we do get married.

For example, I started dating her when she lived in the dorms and continued through her years with roomates. Now, I am going to law school hundreds of miles away from her and we've been in a long distance relationship for about 20 months. During that time she's living all alone for the first time in her life. It's better that way because she's never done it before and we both think it's an important step for her. That she gets the chance to do this and do it successfully would make her more ready to live with me in the future.

Another thing is, especially if you want your child to have a higher chance of success in the world, you need money. Lots of it. A huge reason people have less kids in the western countries is because it costs so much more to bring up a kid. It's the kind of thing you need to set your finances for if you want to do it right so you put off marrying because of that as well.

SSJPabs

'fear of commitment' She obviously hasnt played an MMO or RPG. But shes problably busy doing other things like "packing leisure hours with shopping". To each their own Vice. Gamers->Games, Alcoholics->Alcohol, Her->Shopping.

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

What? Halo 3? We need more SSBB news.

Roflcopter_Down

Eh, doesn't bother me so much compared to the other recent attacks. But Ashcraft, what is this reporting you're doing??? You have Brawl!

Samos42

I think everyone might be taking this a little to seriously. if you read it she seems to be mentioning Halo as an activity that young men take part in, not the reason they are underachieving. though i think that her assumption that our generation is caught in some adolescent phase is ridiculous. especially when said activities are starting to break mainstream. to me it seems like a dated perspective on how the writer thinks we should be behaving.

tsura

"Today's single young men hang out in a hormonal limbo between adolescence and adulthood"

Taken from the article.

"Single women in their 20s and early 30s are joining an international New Girl Order, hyper-achieving in both school and an increasingly female-friendly workplace, while packing leisure hours with shopping, traveling and dining with friends."

Here's the problem with his analysis. He assumed the latter case automatically means those women are happy and achieving so much with their life. I'm betting a good deal of women who are doing the things he's describing are overly-cautious in the way of male-female relationships and are probably both very self-conscious (as with most women) and are super sensitive to what others think about them. While the men the same age are ENJOYING their lives in this "hormonal limbo between adolescence and adulthood"

Oh and his part about increasingly "female-friendly" workplace. Does he even have any female friends? If he did I'm sure he'd hear them bitching about the girls at their work that spread nasty rumors about them or are constantly judging them if they do something wrong. Many things I see wrong with his analysis.

NeoAkira

Well, what the hell is achievement? Travelling is great, but FWIW for the record, I work for a tour company that runs trips for twentysomethings, and the behaviour of the people on our trips is completely immature regardless of gender. No shortage of drinking and hooking up amongst everyone, and if you're engaging in that debauchery more than guys, well...

Anyways, I think there's metrics you can use to measure how successful young people are: if they've moved out of mom's house, how much they're earning, and how happy they are with their lives are three that leap to mind as all being more effective than anything this woman has in her article. I love video games, I go out on the town with friends and coworkers a couple times a week, and I make more than enough to cover all my expenses, have my own place, and pay off my student debts. The article is crass generalization at best, and blatant sexism at worst.

TheBrianIsAstonishing

I've recently been listening to a series on what can be done to save the now endangered old media - newspapers, magazines, 'real' journalism.

I say, the old men of the media are senile; let them die. The sooner the better.

GUY_JIN

yes. no. thank you.

rawg

Maybe... we're just happier so we seem more like children?

I play videogames, though it has only a minor relevance to why I'm happy. In contrast to many of the people I went to school with that graduated top of the class. More often than not they're stressed out attempting to achieve lofty goals at break neck speeds while generally trying to be adults.

Where as I on the other hand achieve things but not at a pace resembling a desperation drive. However, seeing as I fall into this manchild category apparently, I must say I enjoy the atmosphere. I get to go surfing, work the hours I want, enjoy movies, play videogames, I have health insurance, amongst other things. Maybe the key to happiness isn't being an adult but enjoying life for what it is and going at your own pace.

Maybe this lady needs to just grow up because she certainly sounds like a spite fourteen year old that didn't make head cheerleader.

Hehe, she needs to grow up. Fun times... Fun times...

Black-Dog-Howls

Her article is seriously skewed towards females, and since this is an op-ed piece i can't really blame her. Still, Ashcraft has a good point: since when does shopping have any more cultural value than playing a video game? She probably wrote this article thinking that she would draw mostly women readers, and did not expect that any "child-man" would this.

Overall, the article is just a bad piece written with only one demographic in mind. Now... If we could only find a nuclear physicist who plays Halo...

CeeJay005

Those Man-Childs are not afraid of commitment, they are afraid of girls!

Scazza

I take offense at that label. My man-child adolesence is fully hormonal!

GenericKen

This is a typical 21st century sexist article about how what men like to do is by DEFAULT, childish. While women's pursuits, are mature and refined.

Stomp Stomp.

WatershipDown

I'll do my best to make this more than just a 'fuck you Hymowitz'

I don't think that even drinking and playing games is a sign of underacheiving. I work 8 hours but on my days off I drink and play games. It's a great way to relax and I was kinda offended reading.

Ya know, man-child? Hey fuck you Kay I work my ass off!

Slick-Rick

@_woLf:

Right on.

SG79

meh, who are they to decide that being "committed" is really a good thing? Why must people grow up? Why must we all get into relationships and have families? What makes those important? I think the editor values things like that far more than he should, reality is they are only as important as you make them. There are some people that just dont care about things like relationships and families.(me for one, even though I have a good GF, I just dont care about families.)

Additionally, does playing games really make you less successful? I mean, didnt bill gates grow up as a nerd who likely played games frequently? There are countless stories of guys who play games and are successful in terms of careers so you can kinda throw out the underachieving part.

Which brings us back to the family part, which as stated only matters if you put value on that sort of thing. I know I certainly dont, but then again I rarely play Halo to begin with so I dont really fit their demographic.

RuneX

Quick everyone to amazon.com to slam a book she's written!
What no book?
Eh I'm too lazy to follow through anyway.

Sicrowell

"They suffer from a proverbial 'fear of commitment'..."

Only because the women I've been with are backstabbing liars. I'd like to blame Halo for it, but I don't play it, so I can't.

Wait, that doesn't stop the media, why should it stop me?

KirbySS

"by contrast, often seem to hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3 and, in many cases, underachieving."

So either there has been a 100% increase in homosexual "child-men", or these women aren't so great themselves.
Being born a man and now reaching the age of 18, I have failed as a human. ):

Furious_Liver

@Maniclysane: Please, this is a clearly one-sided view of the world. Has she never heard of Girls Gone Wild? I think young men and women tend to be equally stupid when you get right down to it.

user_21938

By night, I am Edge of Blade, that slippery sumabitch with the surround sound headphones lurking behind every corner. No radar, no problem.

By day, I'm a Masters level business student interviewing with IT consulting firms and interning with Fortune 500 companies. No sleep, no problem.

Edge of Blade

A woman dislikes video games? You don't say... *rolls eyes*

I guess grownups can't play board games amongst each other.

This is just another worthless opinion from an individual who wants to classify men who play videogames under a stereotypical banner.

She's the one who needs to grow up and peek her head outside of the box every once in a while.

BloodStainedVendetta

I'm guessing she's never heard of the term "manchild."

Luziphir

Well at least they stopped calling us 13 year-olds.

Torusan

umm....so...i'm not a child man even tho i play other games?

Raziel3333

I find this entire article pretty sexist... I find it very easy to play games and maintain a good personal life. (although, I don't play halo 3 :P)

_woLf

Tell that to CheapyD

redzie

Way to generalize... Too bad they're right.

Maniclysane

"All generalizations are false."

bnpederson

The older I get the more I realise what other people think of me and the things dont make one bit of difference to my life and how happy I am.

If shopping and going out make these 'New Girl Order' woment happy then more power to them. Conversly if my leisure time and way to unwind is to play my favourite games for a while then how is that really any different and why on earth should it matter to anyone who isnt me?!?!

One thing I also think I realise more as I get older is that stupid and/or clueless people really do make the most noise!

mx5geek

@Nickname: To just believe that Halo 3 causes such outbursts, however, is rather narrowminded. It might be a hotbed of general idiotic behavior, but is it really the game? Or a simple compounded problem of overzealous competitiveness mixed with anonymity which sparks such behaviors? With no penalty or noone to correct them (But popular culture such as sports, street balling, football in particular telling them trash talking is a way to win.), the game is merely the outlet of other problems.

Ampillion : Now with 50% more LJ gaming blog.

@Kamizzle:

Underachieving my ass!

I've got 11600 points already!

LOLOL

Cell9song

You really pay attention to mere feminist-sexualism-bias stereotype-based writers?

Cris_Spiegel

yeah but there are some females who do play... I must be screwed up or something, But I already knew that.
@Kermi: Ditto... Best form of birthcontrol : Work in a grocery store O.O

That Girl Hates You

Underachieving my ass!

I've got 11600 points already!

Kamizzle

As a 29 year old male who is a full time employee, full time student, and full time husband, I would like the author of this piece to kindly blow it out the hole betwixt thy buttocks.

I play games, always have and always will. I do other things too like martial arts, play bass, and travel. Call me man-child all you want but have the common decency to respect other peoples choices when it comes to how they live their life.

Ajian

Didn't we used to get labeled as nerds/geeks before that became cool? Didn't people used to give us the look like we were slaughtering a baby seal when we played our video game until everyone including mummies and daddies started playing the wii? Didn't people used to believe that we were trying to break/hack into some government agency whenever we played Tie Fighter, Doom or even the QBasic Gorillas game on a computer until everyone else got a PC and started surfing for pr0n?

So Kay Hymowitz, you can call me a Child Man for now. But I know that you will quickly withdraw that name when Ashton Kutcher comes out and says he is a Child Man and you will likely call us something else. Hopefully not Couch Penis, cause that is just mean and hurts my feelings.

k3nji

BTW, do we REALLY need to give more attention to another 3 tier journalist who has discovered a world of endless page hits thanks to the hypersensitivity of gamers? Long ago I have stopped trying to justify my enjoyment of games to people like Kay and posters like CobAlGhul who simply don't get it. No, games aren't productive, yes I could probably be doing something that would appear to be a better use of my time. I'm only here for approx 70 years and I'll be damned if I have to spend it having to live up to someone else's ideal of "success" or manhood. In the end, people like this simply come off as pontificating, pseudo intellectual douchebags.

Cell9song

While I do agree that man like her description do exist, they aren't "created by videogames" and using videogames as measurement tool isn't very (if any.) accurate.

I don't think she said they were like this "because" of videogame or that videogame is the main factor to identify them.. you can find immature man doing all sorts of things .. even the ones she would call "productive" like .. Working and getting very very rich.

Ludwig

@Luke Plunkett: What the hell is underachieving anyway? Is there any objective to life? If you don't buy a house and settle down, have a kid, get married have you failed life? Do you get an F at living. Being happy is the achievement whether you do it through games, donuts, sticking surgical needles through your nutsack or whatever else floats your boat.

I have a "decent" career, qualifications and a respectable wage. But I HATE my job, and spend my evenings playing Xbox, watching cartoons, and having the occasional beer to forget the day I've had to go through. I travel about once every 6 weeks, I've already spent a week in Estonia this year, and I'm off to Latvia in two. Last year I was in London, Paris, Barcelona, Dusseldorf, Tallinn(4 times) and Riga.

Why are we expected to excise the area of our life we take most pleasure from just because its seen as an adolescent pursuit. Surely shopping is far more superficial?

As far as I'm concerned being an Adult is having the perspicacity not to jettison the elements of your life that give you pleasure because some desiccated hag decides it makes you a manchild.

PJK

Ashcraft - "Yes, some people are marrying later, but to be calling men underachievers because they play video games?"

Funny, because that's not what she said.

Here's what she DID say:

Kay Hymowitz - "Single young males, or SYMs, by contrast, often seem to hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3 and, in many cases, underachieving."

Notice how she said "often", not always. "Seem", not simply "do". And "many" not "all".


AS A JOURNALIST, if you can't make generalizations about SOMETHING, then you simply can't write anything. It's a concept I'm sure you're familiar with, being a blogging news site yourselves.

Ironically enough, she uses the example of a game that has some of the most outrageously ridiculous smack talking that I've ever heard in videogames. If people shouldn't be allowed to base some sort of assessment on this, then there's nothing anybody could ever say about anybody else.

YES it's not the whole picture. But the way you guys constantly defend gaming, you'd think it was some sort of saintly activity. If I didn't know any better, I'd think that you're outcry was as some sort of self-reassurance.

Articles like this, you're better off just leaving alone.

Nickname

Child-man...Gamer-nerds...sticks and stones, people.

These are just people who refuse to embrace change. They see these changes in attitude with fear, and respond by trying to convince others that they're normal. It's a natural response.

boopadoo

@ConstantCupcake: She didn't even get to the part where she tells you just how terrible men are for their aggressive weapon spawn camping, or there grenade or rocket-spamming ways whenever things get tough. Terrible husbands indeed!

I think the article, while indeed painting broad brush strokes, has at least a few interesting theories to be looked at, though I think some of the concepts are rather fouled in their stereotyping. 'Hooking up'? Right, women never do that! I mean, there's not an entire culture of twenty-somethings that live in a constant flux between work and club hopping, and I'm sure if there was, they would all be guys. Pshaw. Fear of commitment? Sounds like a shallow excuse for 'doesn't make enough money so as that their flaws are more noticeable.' to me.

On the other hand, however, you have to wonder sometimes just exactly how people would've turned out if we didn't have games. Would we really be much different from previous generations? Would those games constantly reinforce a juvenile outlook on life? (And we're not talking about 20-something year old gaming mascots here, we're talking gaming in general.) In all honesty, I don't think it's the games at all. I really think it's just social interactions. Not saying gals are the same way, but guys tend to lump together and do a lot of similar things, even if they don't all enjoy them. Not all guys are going to want to huddle up, play some games, chug some beers, and go hit strip joints. Rather, it's just the way men as a group operate. You get one or more guys thinking in one direction and a lot of the time, they all go that route.

To blame gaming for this though? Is incredibly narrow-minded. Sports could have the same effect. Or an enthusiasm for cars or racing. Which the article seems to at least understand, we're not talking about merely gaming. Of course, not all groups are the same way, your mileage may vary. But let's look at it another way.

Women, girls, tend to mature and develop at a faster rate then guys. Typically a couple years. Which, wouldn't really matter too much... except, if guys are actually hitting that 'maturity' window during high school. The two terms don't mesh very well nowadays. 'Development' and 'High School' don't play together well. If you add the social pressures of high school together with this common group identity, and gaming (Let's say, brainless FPS games or Football titles, something generally seen as more juvenile), do you really end up with guys who have seemingly never grown up? Again, I doubt it's gaming's problem, it is merely a piece of entertainment. To somehow think it is stunting my mental growth is like saying that it's also preventing me from reading a book or thinking for myself. Unless I'm playing the latest Dynasty Warriors, that is.

The article, while touching on some interesting things, is a bit of a flop all around, as it fails to touch on females as another possible source of any problems. Also, this is all merely speculative rambling, as I was woke from sleeping by the wonderful head and neck pains. So, at 4am, what else am I to do? Ramble on the internet, of course!

Ampillion : Now with 50% more LJ gaming blog.

What about all the young women playing with their NDS systems? Are they all underachievers, too?

Casual_Hardcore

Kay Hymowitz is a cunt.

Cell9song

1. If I shop for videogames, does that make my overachieving and underachieving cancel out, leaving me a normoachiever?

2. If a man's status as underachiever is cemented by not marrying, does that mean that every unmarried woman created by that decision is also an underachiever? Therefore, does not every child man automatically imply the existence of a corresponding child woman?

3. Someone check her bio to see if she's single, then call her a child woman.

mcderek3000

Video games don't affect maturity nor the amount of responsibility one can handle. That's about all that I have to say about this matter.

Spiderbait

Well that's just insulting.
Just remember fellas, in the immortal words of Dr. Dre:
Bitches ain't shit

Game on my fellow manbabies!!!

glemmstengal

Damnit. Why do I always look at the comments hours after the debate has died down. I could have a lengthy rebuttal to CobAlGhul, but it would go unread. Next time, Al Ghul. Next time!

VAvenger

I'm a huge fan of cartoons, videogames and music and I spend an inordinate amount of my own free time making the latter. And yes I'm 23. This is going to of been said tens upon tens of times by others here but this massive social commentary generalisation is absurd. For me it only serves to highlight the ignorance of the writer.

Last time I checked I had a full time job and earned the money I spent on my own free time.

Were it to concern any other past time this would be just as bad - it's a shame that hyperbole such as this is deemed valid enough to be published frankly.

elronathon

@CobAlGhul: You're not making sense to me. First it's, "games are laughable," then, "the only future of narrative." Wait, so games will kill books and movies? Second of all, how can you spout about how much time is taken up by games, when people at large are still generally running their lives just fine while fitting in those Mass Effect or WoW hours?

It's not scary to see a community of people who enjoy the same thing all react in a similar fashion to this type of scrutiny. What do you expect? Most or everyone here plays games, they enjoy them, so when someone says your hobby is making you a lump what else is going to happen? It's like walking into a Metalhead website and saying, "Metal gives you loose morals," and finding it "scary" that they all get pissed.

Saying that they're 'kids games' proves your ignorance. What do you think an M rating is for, and how do you explain the mature themes in many RPG's as well as Metal Gear solid? I'm pretty sure a child wouldn't understnad the subtleties of Snakes relationship with Big Boss, or any number of examples I could pull from any number of games. Thinking that games are for children is narrowminded and blind.

I've got a nice stack of games, books, comics, and dvd's laying around my room. I guess that qualifies me as a media junkie. So that makes me weak, uninspired, and irresponsible doesn't it? Listen, if you want to come in here and start telling everyone you don't like games because you don't have fun with them, fine, but you can't analyze an entire culture, video game culture, with those huge strokes. I've helped my family with our financial issues on more than one occasion, I'm always there for my sister when my parents aren't, perform well in college, and I'm doing my damndest to join the navy despite having a heart murmer so I can do something for my country while having a good source of income for my sisters tuition when my dad finally can't pay rent. But what do I know, the extacies of life and maturity of adulthood are forever beyond my childish, brittle fingers, aren't they?

Garro

While I don't strongly disagree with most of Kay's points, I do feel the need to clarify two things.

Getting married and having kids does not make you an adult.

If a 16-year-old girl gets really drunk, has unprotected sex, and finds out she's pregnant a month later does that make her an adult? No, how she deals with that child is what makes her an adult.

If the boy-friend of that 16-year-old girl drops out of high school so he can work full-time and provide for their child, does that make him an adult? Yes, this man has decided to forsake his education for the betterment of his family.

If a couple in their early twenties has an unplanned pregnancy and decides to get married as a result, are they adults? Only if they're ready to accept the responsibility of a child. Otherwise their adulthood as well as their marriage is merely superficial.

"Part of growing up is making your own decisions and living with the consequences of those decisions."

If the so-called "child-man" is content with his life and what he enjoys does not bring harm to others, who are we to stop him? Whether or not his social life remains in stasis is ultimately his choice and his choice alone to make.

I also don't agree with the mentality that you can be too old for something. Interests have nothing to do with maturity. How you pursue and apply those interests are what define your character.

Ever since I played my first video game, I've wanted to become a game programmer. Does that make me adult? No, moving out of state, living on my own, going nearly bankrupt, getting my degree, and then deciding not to pursue a career in game programming is what makes me an adult. I'm just an adult who also happens to like video games, pornography, hentai, sentai, and giant monster movies. I'm also deeply in love with my first and only girlfriend.

Kain-Xavier

@Tyrannical: Spot on. Thank you for that.

JohnnytheFuture

@Soldrak: hey, if you work 80 hour workweeks and manage kids, seriously, anything shy of injecting black tar heroin into your eye sockets in view of your kids is a hobby id endorse, and props for finding time for it with sleep and all. that's not a schedule i envy.

TheIrishNinja

Young men who play video games are therefore unsuited to be prospective boyfriends and potential husbands.

Thats what I got out of it. That the author somehow yearns the days of the past when a man at mid 20's had a factory job already out of college and high school. Not that I say it is bad but consider the fact that, there was nothing to DO after you get out of college.

To say that a young man in his mid 20's who plays video games and does not have a good job is an insult to our culture. Just as we have responsibility to ourselves, to decide what is wrong and what is right and what we should do, so does society. It is not right, not just to say that our environment has nothing to do with our upbringing. Who is to say that these people are immature, afraid of commitment? Yes, this stage does not bring out the best of men. But tell me, where in our life up till this point are we truly free to be who we really want to be? As a child, we never thought we would grow up that we would be a child forever. As a teen, we felt stifled by our parents and the school system. In college, that pressure lifted but was still there but in a different form: get a degree, look for a job, pay your bills, pay your loans. In the mid 20's a man is out of college and hopefully out of his parent's home. He is free to do what he wants. And why not? Sure , 40 creeps up mighty quickly but what is life if life is all work and no play? That's a problem I think with our culture today. It is all work, time, work, time, work, time. There is simply no time at all to just let go. It's kind of sad in a way. In a civilization as advanced as ours we still havent found a way to let go.

"...Young men especially need a culture that can help them define worthy aspirations."

What is this? Our society is evolving into a society where it is woman first. I am not saying that it is bad to have woman's rights and equal pay and all that good stuff. But consider the fact that there is so much drive and pressure for woman to succeed, to excel, to go to college, to get a degree, to get a high paying job, that now the pressure is not equal for men. I admit there was a time when men were promoted first and woman were not even considered to be an potential workforce. When you turn on the news you dont hear about men who are the first to go to college, you hear about women and their increasing role in society. Today we have for the first time, a woman running for a presidential candidacy and possible be a president. It is not bad that we have such events, it is simply a natural course of events that have been put into motion when women gained the right to vote. But the pressure is not equal. You dont see posters on the walls of your schools urging young women to go to college, you dont see the advertisements urging women to be more involved in math and science. Thats a reason why that there is this increasing trend of "child-men"

" Adults don't emerge. They're made."

What the hell? Don't emerge, they are made. What kind of tripe is this? You do not make a man or woman, they themselves decided when they are a man or woman. You can make an assumption that the person across from you is an "adult" but in their eyes they can still be in the maturity level of a teenager. This statement implies that there is this machine that teens go into and out pops an adult ready for the real world. WAKE UP. The world doesnt work like that. There is no magical machine that we go through and poof, we have a mature understanding of the world. It is learned through experience, lessons, stories, and through the general experience of life. You cant say that we make ourselves be adults; we gradually change our view of the world and when you can look back on your memories and can confidently say that your view has matured; then you are an adult.

Okais

@Torusan: sigh... activity.*

Torusan

No, but seriously...what exactly is the difference between the average 26 year old male and the average 13 year old boy these days?

"Dude, that chick's like toadally hawt and I'd like...hit it with that bitch and um, SoldierBoi's new cd is like cool or um, no it's gay and stuff and let's play rock band and drink beer. Yeah!"

I think it's called Peter Pan syndrome or something. It's fun.

cheeses

@Torusan: Quickly afterward I asked how much time was spent a week the students played video games. Pretty average numbers. Nothing worth counting as "addiction" or "obsessed." I then asked how much time the students spent watching television every week. Can you guess? A complete contrast, as in hours spent watching television and hours spent playing games were reversed. Those who played little to no games watched as much television as the the others played games who watched little to no television.

Sorry, edit. For clarification.

Torusan

whatever women do is by default noble, ideal, refined, sophisticated, smart, right, etc. whereas men are by default boorish, emotionally retarded children, violent, stupid, sex crazed, videogame playing neanderthals.

baccardi84

@CobAlGhul: We grow up when we know we have to. Sometimes its as easy as saying so.

Every sort of activate takes time. Whether or not its a waste is dependent on what a person gets out of it and if they think its was worth it. I'm sorry if you don't think video games can help people or can culture people.

During my senior year in high school, every student in my sociology class had an assignment to address a social issue or aspect to the class and had the entire class period for one day to basically "teach." Guess what I did? "Video games in society." My teacher, who is probably the most open-minded person I have ever known, was intrigued and approved of the material.
The first thing I asked in class was what comes to mind when they think of video games? Two responses were "a waste of time." One of which was from my teacher. Quickly afterward I asked how much time was spent a week the students played video games. Pretty average numbers. Nothing worth counting as "addiction" or "obsessed." I then asked how much time the students spent watching television every week. Can you guess? A complete contrast. The problem with your comments are that you're assuming that that is all we ever do. Sleep, eat, work, game. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but we do have commitments, they're just not always about other people.

I don't watch television. I saw Heroes on HD-DVD, but I never saw a single episode on television. Please do not tell me watching television is a better use of my time than playing video games.

I'm a full-time college student with a part time job that plays an MMORPG. I'm single, but I'm young. I'm sorry if I didn't find my life partner in high school.

You may get praise for a well thought out and different opinion which I respect, but thats not going to stop me from saying that I flat out disagree with it in its entirety.

You watch your movies/television. I'll play my games, thanks.

Torusan

I don't know what's worse, saying Mass Effect is damaging to youths or playing Halo 3 makes you a commitaphobe, and if not that then your love of games is temporary.

Screw that crazy broad. She sounds like an over-opinionated jackass who took one too many borderline sexist comments personally, and is venting with her opinion piece.

She's unbelievably condescending. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be playing games, reading graphic novels, and watching anime well into my 30's and 40's, and that doesn't mean I'm a "child man." Whatever, she's ignorant of the culture so it's not like what she wrote matters.

Garro

It's probably better not to say anything as general pop psyschology pieces like this are full of it to begin with, but this is the kind of wrongheaded assumption that we need to get over, even for those overachieving women who do play video games. This is Cooper Lawrence part the second.

I hate to brag, but I've done plenty in the past few years that I wouldn't say are underachievements, all the while playing videogames at least 20 hours a week. I do not watch tv, rather absorb the necessary parts on the net. I travel frequently out of a curiosity for other cultures. I scuba dive and ride a bicycle and use public transport. I have given time to charities and political campaigns. I read about a book a week.

I know of several acclaimed figures in the entertainment industry who are on xbox live regularly. All of whom have achieved more than I have. One of them is an amazing father.

Sometimes I play games because I suffer from chronic head pain and concentration on games gives me great relief. Not because I am a manchild.

My girlfriend to whom I am devoted in a monogamous relationship is an overachiever who puts me to shame and she plays games on her DS daily and reaches for Virtua Fighter 5 whenever she's at my place.

I'd like to see the author's shabby imagined uberfemme try and beat Rock Band's drumming on expert. Then I'll be impressed.

Watching a Sex in the City dvd box set does not make one an overachiever.

otakuhouse

Men are better. Putting it out there.

bird1988

Oh and there wouldn't be these "Childmen" if there weren't some "childwomen" to data them.

nightshade71986

@WatershipDown:
I agree completely, typical views of a misinformed stereotype from a condescending individual... just what we need...

x omega gold

@ShaggE: Yeah this is the problem with society, you're not enjoying life unless they say you are.

Soldrak

@rateoforange: A greater concern would be how gender roles and expectations continue to persist even in this day and age. Men who play games are called man-children, but what about women who play games? They are obviously worse than man-children, just downright weird and probably ugly, that's what society would say.

Soldrak

This may sound like hedonism, but as long as I'm enjoying life, then I'm achieving all I need to achieve.

Yes, it'd be nice to have a 6 figure salary and a significant other, but there's time for that later. Right now I'm just enjoying the life of a 21 year old gamer.

ShaggE

@TheIrishNinja: I do question the tone and general intent of the article. I guess she would be alright with a husband who works 80 hours a week and spends no time with her or the kids as long as she's able to shop all day and buy everything she wants. The double standard here is astounding, to say the least.

Soldrak

debates containing Men>women and/or Women>men= fail (always)

Plain and simple, read it, learn it, live it, goodnight.

nightshade71986

The traditional male that took responsibility, raised his kids, married his girl, and paid his mortgage was the selfsame aloof patriarch that dominated his wife and family.

Basically I agree with the author here. A lot of men in my generation seem lost. I think she fails to realize that the ability of men in previous generations to take responsibility and the respect and power society offered them for doing this are inextricably linked.

Men today are asked to settle down, and are offered nothing by society or family, even if they are the principle earner. Wives are not expected to defer to them, they are not allowed to effectively punish their children, and society generally doesn't afford them any more respect for fulfilling the traditional role, since all roles are generally considered equally valid.

In short, asking for traditional men back is tantamount to asking for traditional society back. You can't get one without the other.

rateoforange

I'm a father and I go to college and I'm married. And they were all my choices, not accidents. Oh yeah and I played Halo 3...until Call of Duty 4 was released.

nobodysleeps

@CobAlGhul: perhaps, but im of the mindset that if a man was going to allow his social life, school, work, goals & priorities etc lax at the expesne of, say, another WoW raid, you've got to figure this person wasn't going to be writing compelling novels if WoW wasnt there.

but again, for us to discuss what's normal is a bit subjective too: you and i might feel such a guy's time/life invested in this endeavor is unbalanced, but - and i really dont wannna come off as a relativist here - its hard for me to say how one should lead their life. i'm a firefighter that looks forward to future time off to invest in gaming whereas other guys work other jobs to afford a better standard of living, say. I may feel my time's pretty balanced with work, training, family, friends, and traveling, but im certain the author of this piece, and many of its readers would disagree, especially after, say, Suikoden 5 took me 100 freakin' hours.

TheIrishNinja

Why does she single out gaming along with a few other "man activities?" Gaming is probably the least of the few to contribute to the general male behavior.

Kids do need to care more about their academia and I'm not saying that gamers or TV viewers do not, but BARACK OBAMA is going to save us!! LOLOL

bird1988

I can speak toward the idea that some of us fall into the extended adolescence. I see it in a lot of my friends, and myself to no small extent. While she's wrong for generalizing all men as such, I'm less offended by that and more by the following statement:

"The problem with child-men is that they're not very promising husbands and fathers."

You know what? Maybe that's not what every man is "made for", being the house husband and father that every woman dreams of. Maybe it's not a problem for a man that he's not compatible with what women want. Maybe, just maybe, it's okay to work at a gas station and live alone in a dirty apartment playing games with your friends, if that's what makes you happy. Society will be better off when people can accept that success and happiness mean different things to different people.

Might not be for everyone, but I had to get my two cents in.

supershroom

@Miksho:

New? they've been here for 20 years man.

Antiflow

@ConstantCupcake: Apparently, the amount of money women spend on shopping is good for the economy, but those man-children spending money on games? Obviously the cause of our current recession!

Soldrak

@TheIrishNinja:

Games aren't appalling. In fact, I'd say that they are the only rightful future of narrative and will, in time, become the framework for how we view ourselves (much like how the movie industry used to be). What is appalling though is the addict-like state of many common gamers today.

Enjoying Mass Effect is one thing. Enjoying it at the detriment of all other competing life events is a problem. A movie typically only lasts 3 hours and prime-time television is confined to limited blocks of time as well, but many gaming schedules are unimpeded by the typical strictures. And wen a gamer sees fit to exhaust youthful "elan vital" all for the sake of accumulating arbitrary and non-transferrable rewards, it's sad.

CobAlGhul

The thing that most people don't realize is the role video games play in the current generation. It's slowly becoming more accepted in society and isn't just something that cavedwelling neckbeards, pale D&D geeks and their nerdy asian friends drool over in magazines anymore.

I'm glad to know that because I play Halo 3, I am a degenerate. Time to go unlock some underachievements.

yanthrax

I, for one, welcome our new Feminist Overlords.

Miksho

Let's sacrifice her to our video game Gods!

BigManZam

Wow. I'm supposed to be filling my leisure hours with shopping? Shit man I'm really out of the loop. And all this time I've been looking for a mate who plays halo 3 because that would mean he shared some of my interests. It's a good thing this opinion piece came along to tell me Halo Players are terrible husbands and fathers before I *really* threw my life away marrying a gamer.

ConstantCupcake

@Soldrak:

Neither. To my chagrin, a late night look through my RSS feeds has turned into a moment of inspired research. Alas, Kotaku does have the distinction of sporting the world's brightest community of gamers!

CobAlGhul

Girl power, boys smell, bla bla bla. Next.

elevenoverzero

well I mean, you can be a gamer as long as you are responsible with your life, family and career/study.

Playstation: ShoyuRamen (PSN), Shoyu Ramen (XBL)

@Gunhaver: Yeah I'd really have to wonder how spending your children's college fund on the latest Louis Vuitton handbag isn't the prime definition of childish.

Soldrak

@Soldrak:

Agreed! There's a circle of hell reserved for all the magazines targeted at young women. They've generated more simple-minded views of the world and ruined more minds than the past 3 decades of gaming (or the next 3, for that matter) could ever hope to compete with. Ultimately, the referenced article is little more than the paper industry's veiled assault on imposing media, but it does bring to light a disturbing issue.

CobAlGhul

@CobAlGhul: christ, but if you find games such an existential waste of time, why take part at all?
on a philosophical level, you can argue that one might gain fullfillment from what, spending time with loved ones, perhaps travelling, and a few other things? Much of what we do - internet blogs, watching TV, sports, working on cars/other hobbies etc can, from a thoreau-like perspective be said to be just passing the time until we pass, no?
the bit about 20+ year old masocts from our lost youth, im certain that applies to others as well, but you're just as guilty of blanket statements as this article, are you not? what about those of us who're more progressive and simply enjoy the interactivity and deeper plot/characterization of say, Mass Effect, how is that different from a movie, TV series or other more socially acceptable venue, sans interactivity? hell, even when i play something like Uno online, i can do so with good friends who've moved far away, or those ive met here.

point being, if you see gaming as nothing more than a shallow, vapid throwback to one's youth, that's a shame, but then that's likely all you're going to allow yourself to see. that doenst mean the rest of us arent having memorable adventures, or stories, akin to those found in other venues, and with online co-op and such, arent interacting with friends and getting a lot more than that. then again, yours is more likely the perspective many others in society have, resulting in articles like these.

TheIrishNinja

For the record, no I don't want children. Never have. It's not my XBox's fault.

Kermi

@CobAlGhul: Is arguing on the internet a fruit bearing pursuit or is it a penis-waving contest that man-children tend to do? I'll let you be the judge of that...

Soldrak

My fiancee and I unwind after our full-time office jobs in the insurance industry by playing Halo 3 together online. We will be taking a Pacific cruise later this year.

Once again, journalists don't know shit about shit when it comes to gaming. Who's surprised?

Kermi

Sounds like it's time we hit her with the ol' Amazon spamflood.

Oh, and an article that glorifies the supposed female lifestyle while putting down the supposed male lifestyle? Who's surprised that this is written by a woman?

Gunhaver

@blurayforever143:

It's curious that you'd use relativism to equate fruit-bearing pursuits to being pusillanimous. Every example you gave involved individuals going out and doing something (a task that always has inherent risk). Where's the "go out and do something" aspect of gaming? Where's the life-altering risk? What are the tangible rewards of "beating" a game? Why don't people put the games they've completed on their resumes, tombstones, or tax reports? Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems that you've convinced yourself that all the sentimental intangible rewards of gaming are actually quite palpable and on the same level of fulfillment as being a movie star, an engineer, or a poet. Really?

CobAlGhul

Damn, I do all that. Drink, hook-up and play Halo 3. She didn't mention fighting though! I fight pro...so does that make me the ultra child-man? :(

DemonBlood

So, let me get this straight.

First, the accusation is leveled that men in their late teens/twenties/early thirties that live a certain lifestyle are generally immature.

Then, the author states that the larger problem with that immaturity, and the proof of its existence, is (her opinion) that it means those sorts of men don't make good husbands or fathers.

Finally, she goes on to patronize further by stating that those men will, eventually, "settle down", which I can only infer to mean stop playing video games, or, more simply, resign themselves to life not just as a husband, but as the sort of Husbo-FatherTron that this person deems "normal".

All of which leaves me with any and all of the following conclusions :

1.) The author is one of that new and endearing breed of fembot that both embraces the You Go Girl sass (JAZZ HANDS) while at the same time clinging (and clinging... and clinging...) to the sexual stereotypes that plague the opposite gender, exploiting those stereotypes to her own personal benefit. ("My stable Husbo-FatherTron makes more than enough money for us to live in this quaint suburban house and provide me with a massive SUV with which I will visit the Coach outlet this weekend, my girlfriends in tow. We will giggle about our husbands cocks. I will come home and catch him enjoying pornography. I will berate him so mercilessly for doing so that he will develop issues that he should probably be in therapy to treat. Instead of doing that, however, he'll simply allow me to take the Platinum card out next weekend. You know, to make it up to me.")

2.) The author believes that the only acceptable male role is that of provider/breeder, and any personal gratification derived from anything beyond the purusit of those two goals is therefore frivolty worthy of mockery. This varies somewhat from the first view point in that this could be driven by a militant hatred of men, as opposed to the manipulative... hatred of men.

As an aside, I also enjoy how the author has absolutely no willpower with regard to stopping herself from jumping onto her genetically-inherited VagCross (tm) in order to martyr herself and her gender to the gods of Work Place Inequality. "Increasingly female-friendly workplace" being her way of acknowledging the fact that, in a lot of urban areas, professional women are actually making more on average than their male counterparts and that service wages amongst men and women are statistically equal. Without, you know, having to actually give up the pleasure of being victimized or the false self-adulation of succeeding "against the odds".

MuppetChrist

@Soldrak: Exactly. There are endless other equally trivial pursuits that people engage in, but because games are a medium that started off, arguably, as 'toys' it's created a double standard.

Stormrider (XBL: Lilarcor)

@Tyrannical: My what? LoL! I'm sorry but, damn that's funny! I wonder what sort of women you talk to if you feel that way...

If anything, by this definition, I'm a Child-Woman! And darn proud.
*Puffs out chest*

k1773n

@CobAlGhul: The problem is that the media and wider society in general tend to zoom in and attack gaming as a diversionary waste of time when there are other things in life that are just as much a waste of time as gaming.

Take for instance watching TV or reading gossip magazines. Thousands of hours of man-hours are "wasted" on these two pursuits but you never ever hear the media talking about people watching too much TV or magazines printing articles about how people are spending too much time reading articles that don't make them any more productive than they already are. And why would they, they would be putting themselves under the magnifying glass and shooting themselves in the foot.

So what do they do? Turn against that thing that's competing with your undivided attention, it's all about penis envy. Gaming companies are making billions and growing by the year while the TV industry is stagnating regurgitating reality television crap and daytime soaps. So they feel compelled to sling some mud at all those people who are wasting their time being man-children playing games rather than wasting their time being coach potatoes watching reality TV or reading self-important magazines that at the end of the day don't really have anything meaningful to say.

Soldrak

What if you're shopping for Halo 3? Does that still make you a man-child?

Trog13

@CobAlGhul: Agree.

Playstation: ShoyuRamen (PSN), Shoyu Ramen (XBL)

When I read "New Girl Order," my mind immediately went to an image of Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, and Scott Hall wearing pink frilly dresses.

Hogan: "I'll tell ya when we're gonna do! Me and Scott and Big Kev are all gonna sit around and talk about our feelings, brother!"

Hall: "That's right, chico."

Nash: "Yeah. And there ain't nothin' that WCW can do to stop us!"

As one can guess, my inner child-man is obsessed with wrestling and finding a decent job. My girlfriend's child-man is obsessed with wrestling and vampires... or in the case of guys like Vampiro, Gangrel, and Kevin Thorn, wrestling vampires.

Ariata

Once again, kudos to CobAlGhul; you made an intelligent, well-thought out point, and you got a spark of response out of this thread.

Miksho