"They Wonder Why People Don't Make PC Games Any More"
Translation: We aren't going to make PC games anymore.

Fine then, fuck off, you won't have my business. I still stand behind the idea that any western developer who won't develop for the PC is a bad developer, and I refuse to give my money to them.

@htd:
If you got an old machine, Natural Selection is till a good deal. If you have HL1 already, just DL the mod and install.

Akin

@bklooster:

"Movie theatres don't refund you for bad movies you see."

Bad analogy. Also some music concerts do refund money (ie) if there's a riot.

And no, in my experience, putting trust in faceless game reviewers and incomplete demos is not the best way to build a good PC collection. Playing the full game first, however, is surefire. It's not about free entertainment for me. It's about maximizing a limited budget and building a solid collection of games I will be playing next year and the year after that...mostly I just want to know if the game works or not. It's not like I can go to Blockbuster and rent it, or check it out in a movie theatre first before throwing down my $50+.

hastyp

The developers deserve their money for this game. It is amazing. Damn cheapskates. They are pathetic.

Keegs79

my machine is not even powerful enough to play this game, and what's left for fps games besides graphics? everything else is cliche to me.

htd

Um.. He says the "persentage was disturbing" ... so what was the percentage?

Here's a question, why do you use a system that allows people to go online without a good CD key if you don't want people online without a good CD key? Just use steam already!

Akin

@Rurik:
How about Amazon.com? Sheesh. If you are going to pirate, don't try to rationalize it.

AlreadyDead

@Anthropomancer:
15% of all statistics on the internets are lies.

Anyways, I think I'm among the majority in that I pirate and buy games. I buy games that looks amazing and it's guarantee that I'll enjoy (bought Orange Box) while I download material that I'm not too sure about (downloaded Bioshock). I'm still playing Orange Box while Bioshock is rotting on my harddrive.

qsceszwsxasd

The few times I've played Crysis in multi player, I would randomly go into the chat room and there would just be spam of broken English "LOOKN 4 CRAKED SERVERZ".

I don't pirate, however lately with the amount of stinker games I've bought due to hype, I think I might have to try before I buy. Yes, I know, I shouldn't follow hype, oh well.

Maldom

If you pirate games, do not try to pretend that it's not stealing to make yourself feel better. Sharing?! That's hilarious. It's just as easy to say that I really, really dug that guys car, and I felt he should share it with me. Just because it's easily copied do to it's digital nature, doesn't mean that you should rip off the creators. Keep doing it if you want to keep watching the PC game market burn down to nothing and developers switch to consoles, though.

SpiralJacobs

@bklooster: A girl I knew from highschool snuck into a movie I was seeing (via elaborate ticket-handling) decided it sucked a quarter of the way through, and proceeded to walk out and demand a refund with my ticket.
She got it, too. My crazy woman completely refutes your argument :P
Still don't mean this whole thing is right.

the-red-terror

@bklooster:
Actually my housemate works in Odeon cinema and they will refund you if you don't like the movie. You have to leave before the end though. And I've returned CD's to my local HMV on the basis that the album was rubbish.

mrrobsa

@Hitokage:
game industry is only strong cause of console games sales

Spds

If game companies wanna curb piracy they should offer discounted downloadable versions of the game. As far as I've seen the regular packaged ver and the dl ver are teh same price, but you know theyre saving money on packaging and delivery. Yes, they have to spend money on the server infrastructure, but many places already have that infrastructure in place.

I really wish games hadn't turned into the multi-million dollar budget monsters they are now...

kwant

There is so many things in this thread that I find so interesting. It's interesting to see how people justify getting entertainment for nothing. This "insurance" for try it before I buy mentality is crap and not represented anywhere else in the entertainment industry. Movie theaters don't refund you for bad movies you see. You don't have the ability to get a refund on a concert if the band sucks. You shouldn't get insurance to "try" out the full game without paying for it. That is why there are reviewers, there are demos, and there are peers that can steer you from a game. I could go on, but I'm late for work.

bklooster

@the-red-terror: lol well, downloading titles that can't be bought anymore I respect fully, cause how can they sue you over loss of profits of a game they don't sell or thanks to DRM won't let you buy used :)

@Hitokage: It does remind me somewhat of the greedy kids over at the music industry, but just a little.

Irenicus-the one and only

@SkutSkut: True.

I'm not into pirating, but I am also very very picky when it comes to buying a PC game, as I know I won't be able to get rid of it after playthrough. That's less sales right there.

Then there's the whole Bioshock limited install scheme. My money ain't touching that at all.

I wouldn't know the solution, but there you have it.

Malmer

The industry is the strongest it's ever been... and they're still bitching about piracy?

Come on now.

Hitokage

@Irenicus-the one and only: That's because you don't know how to hunt, kill and eat pigeons my friend. I'll keep on downloading my out-of-circulation titles until the bastards come and unplug my modem because I know those skyrats are there for me.

the-red-terror

@SAKY: Did it really though? Hmm.

@Spds: True, either you are on STeam and CS etc. Or an RTS like warcraft or starcraft, or WoW :P or any other MMO.

@gtrunner2: Now that is some bullshit right there, ISP's should never do such a thing. If you can I would reccomend changing ISP, cause thats just wrong.

Irenicus-the one and only

i cant down load torrents my ISP doesn't let me.

gtrunner2

yeah, its all because of WoW!
WoW is killing PC games sale, not piracy!
all those 10mln WoW players dont have the time to play other games

Spds

Could this kill the PC gaming industry? Piracy certainly helped kill the Dreamcast.

SAKY

@the-red-terror: I don't know about the sentence, I rather go to jail for a month or so then be bankrupt for the rest of my life scratching lottery tickets hoping to get back to a zero bankstatement :D

Maybe next time they should release COD5 only to Steam and then see if it is more or less people playing the game and how many people bought it.

Irenicus-the one and only

@EnigmaNemesis:

Furthermore, if I dont have the money to get the game yet, I just wait. And in 6 months PC games are usually $20 less on average anyhow.

EnigmaNemesis

Minus $50 for me.

hastyp

@saturnofthesega:

Dont use torrents, dont even download demos (dislike installing demos). Buy what I want to get.

/shrug

EnigmaNemesis

@the-red-terror: There, I expelled some excellence for you. [longorshortcapital.com]

@hastyp: Yes, another game I downloaded and realized how buggy it really is. However, I bought it on ebay new for 25$, only because it was half the retail price, and I figured it might get patched eventually.

wicko

WTF IS a PC gaming? Politically correct gaming? Surely nobody means this old thing I'm typing this on now, why playing a game on this would be simply barbaric!

Jaysius

@Irenicus-the one and only: I'm a thief in my own view as well!
Just under copyright infringement rather than burglary. Less harsh sentences FTW!
Anyways, seeing as I can't do anything right, here, once again, are my views.
In convenient point form!
-Piracy = steelin', but not really bad steelin'.
-You shouldn't really be steelin', unless you unsteel the game later.
...also unless the game sucked anyways.
-If you're steelin', you should feel bad while doing so.

the-red-terror

@the-red-terror: QFT

Piracy has always been about stealing and continues to be.

brent_w

I bet they're still making millions on the console versions.

Seroth

Not immoral, not theft. What is immoral is that game stores won't take a game back if it doesn't work on my system's hardware or if the game is super buggy. (ie)Gears of War on PC = buggy POS.

hastyp

@MrLister: True, some yes. I agree with that analysis when it comes to the music industry for sure. But preowned games need to stay for me, if that would go away I may not frown on pirating games as much as I do now. Another reason why buying PC games suck, with all the copy protection so you can't sell or buy a preowned game anymore :(

Irenicus-the one and only

@Spds: right, but the win/loss ratio is pretty bad on PC compared to console.

So we can all agree that everyone should just play WOW? *ducks*

rainofwalrus

I'd love for them to share the numbers, if only to shut up the idiots who don't understand that copyright infringement is single-handedly destroying the PC games industry.

Erwos

Hmh only games with monthly fees or games with only multiplayer are surviving from piracy. atleast almost of them..
when it comes to consoles, atleast there's one console that isn't "hacked" yet. And that's good and bad thing at the same time.

TaMs

As for me, I _DO_ download new games to check them. I have been screwed too many times by games developers to just go out and buy their game.

I download my PC games, I download my PSP games - and if pthey play right and I enjoy playing them, I am off to buy them. If I don't fall in love with them - I delete them. It's as simple as that.

My library of PSP games is quite big, but I do not have too many recent PC games. I just haven't found anything worth playing for quite some time.

And even though I liked the introductory sequence in COD4 a lot, I didn't somehow feel the need to continue playing. I deleted it from my hard drive after maybe three hours and no, I am not going to buy it. Not saying it's bad, by all means it isn't, but it works so-so on my machine and didn't draw me into the game.

Same for Jeanne d'Arc on PSP, same for new Syphon Filter - these are good games, I just didn't find in them this magical spark that would keep me playing.

World in Conflict is now waiting for its turn and if I like it, I will buy it. If not... F8.

The only game I will buy without trying it first is Orange Box, but I need to gather my funds for it.

And the last game I bought without giving it a try was Manhunt 2, out of pure malice and anger against idiots who forced censorship upon it. I then played uncensored version from Memory Stick, but oh well, all of my money are belong to Rockstar.

Barts_706

@the-red-terror: It may not be theft by law or even illegal in some countries, and cut copy makes sense, but you are still a thief in my view if you download a copy of the game. I just don't see the difference morally from downloading it to stealing the box from a store.

So people can nitpick all they want to, it wont change anything.

Irenicus-the one and only

How many of these people would have actually bought the game if a pirate version was not available? As far as I can see, the devs only lose out if people who would have paid top dollar for the game are downloading it for free. I have a feeling that most of these piratees are only playing the game because they got it for free.

The whole affair probably takes less from the pockets of developers than pre-owned games do anyway, and in that case someone else is actually making money off the devs. Now we are dealing with digital, easily duplicable media, piracy will always be around. As long as the pirates themselves aren't making any profit off it it's just something people will have to get used to. What I don't like is people who pay like, a fiver to some dodgy dude for as pirate game or film. the sellers should be stopped.

MrLister

@wicko: That is honestly the best methaphor I've seen in months. I'm actually considering your side in more depth now.
Fine then. My stance after all this debate: It's not theft, but it is immoral, so if you do it make sure you feel bad.
And wear an eyepatch.

the-red-terror

Let me make something clear. I'm not trying to change anyones mind about the literal definition of piracy/theft. Just expressing my opinion and backing it up. It's nitpicking, is all.

wicko

@The_Saint: Think of it as the difference between copy and cut.

wicko

@DeadHex:
I think we caught it. :)

shertzerj

@mrrobsa: well that's fine if the law chooses to discern a difference between the means of acquisition of something that in one sense or another doesn't rightfully belong to you -but that's MY point -both piracy and theft means the person is in possession of something that they do not legally have a right to posses, does it not?

The_Saint

also: guys read the LAW plz
downloading is not a crime (in most countries)
distributing (sharing) is

Spds

@the-red-terror: Meh, agree to disagree I guess. I just find it funny that, as a dev in training that I take this stance, while others who are not, take the opposite.

wicko

@the-red-terror: No copyright infringement isn't theft, he is right. Theft involves taking something away from someone, copyright infringement involves making a copy illegally. Copyright infringement didn't even used to be a crime.

They are both illegal, and immoral (although some would disagree), but they are not the same thing.

slight

Oh yeah, it's totally cool that you pirate a game. I mean, who the hell cared about that stupid developer who spent millions of dollars and years of very difficult work to make a beautiful piece of art that is the game you are playing? I mean, why the hell should they get compensation for me playing and liking their game? They should be happy I like it, and live with that, they don't need my money to payback the costs of the development cycle, or to make a profit, because they don't deserve it. After all, it's just me downloading a game, it's not like $60 will make them go bankrupt. I mean sure I told my friend how to pirate it, and she probably told her friend, but I mean, that's like... a couple hundred dollars, pocket change to them, right? Besides, I need to fight the establishment, it's what the cool kids do.

(Major sarcasm if you are really dumb and didn't catch it.)

DeadHex

@wicko: YOU MUST EXPEL EXCELLENCE FROM EVERY ORIFICE.
This goes for all of you. No crummy metaphors on my internets.

the-red-terror

@mrrobsa: I agree with what you are saying, in fact I've said it quite a few times before and I always have people bashing me for it. But it is very true, they are different crimes and are punished for accordingly.

I believe I've heard in the states that the punishment is worse for piracy (whether its selling the copies or what, I don't know) is worse than for armed robbery.

wicko

@wicko: Not saying I don't do it, and I'm all for the reasoning behind it; I just firmly believe that it's stealing.

the-red-terror

Now that everyone on Kotaku thinks I'm a dev-killing lousy pirate, I'll be off to do my exam. Sorry if anyone took offence, was just trying to explain why I don't like this blurring in recent times of these two seperate crimes. I still love you all.
Toodles.

mrrobsa

@the-red-terror: lol its early, what do you want from me..

wicko

@mrrobsa: *sigh*
I'm taking their game and leaving them without money. Seriously, this was over like, 18 minutes ago.

the-red-terror

The last time I bought a PC game it came with Starforce, which is basically a fucking virus. I don't condone stealing, but when shit like that is put on the disk that hinders lawful consumers its ridiculous.

Its like that damn piracy advert that's on damn near every Bluray now. If I pirated the film, I can be you money that that segment would be cut.

ExarKun

I pirate games. I also spend thousands of dollars a year on them. It doesn't make it right, but I have no choice. Some games have the DRM set up to give a legal consumer such a headache, it's better (user friendly) to steal a copy with a crack. I never understood DRM where you punish the people buying the game.

I am also not going to wait for Gametap, Virtual Console, PSN, Live marketplace, etc, to trickle out old school games. We want our games! We want them now! The industry had plenty of time to repackage X-Com and Goldeneye 64 and sell them on current platforms. They failed, so I took the initiative to get them myself.

Agnostic

@the-red-terror: On a serious note, I still wouldn't call it stealing.. sharing, yes. With stealing, someone has something to lose, and the other party has something to gain. Downloading, well, only half of that is satisfied. You might argue that developers are losing money that way, but this may not be entirely true. Believe it or not, not everyone downloads because they refuse to pay for it. I've downloaded plenty of games to see if they are worth paying for. Too many times have I been ripped off with games I purchased, and the latest trend is to punish the people actually paying for the game (Bioshock).

wicko

@Spds: Yes but console games aren't pirated anywhere near the extent of PC games. He has a point, why would you spend time and money developing a game for a system where 60% is pirated when you could develop for multiple systems where it's closer to 15% or even 10%?

Anthropomancer

@Spds: No, it's not. But since PC software is easily the most convenient to pirate, it's by far the most common. On consoles it's not nearly as relevant.

Quark

@The_Saint:
I was simply making it clear that piracy and theft are legally two different things, and we would do well to remember this. It's not just that the words are different, it is that they are two different crimes with different criteria and different sentences. It is piracy if you copy copyrighted material, it is theft if you take from someone else and they are left without.

mrrobsa

@wicko: Whaaa?
A better metaphor would be the internet is the sea, computers are ships, and bittorrent is my 64-pound carronade used for stealing spanish gold.

the-red-terror

whats wrong with a lil pie-ratting here n there? arrghhh

pandafresh

@wicko: Industry or pirate bay, I'm not to sure that it was the industry that coined the term tbh.

In any case, pirating games hurts gamers.

@mrrobsa: It is stealing, and dealing. It is also illegal in most countries. I think music ain't something worth money, or that musicians other then the ones doing conserts should get payed, so I don't care if people pirate music, but for my own piece of mind I just don't listen to music or download it, that way I ain't a thief :)

besides, im happy with my classics and LP.

Irenicus-the one and only

its not just PC games, please dont say that only PC games are being piratred

Spds

Larceny isn't theft. It's a different word for a reason!

Quark

@wicko:
Classic, absolutely classic. Gotta love a bit of Graham Linehan!

mrrobsa

@the-red-terror: Yes, maybe if the sea is a sea of numbers and all the bytes (people) are being deleted (killed).

wicko

@mrrobsa: That's fucking terrific logic. *sarcasm*

DeadHex

If its over ten years old and cant be found most places I think its ok *COUGHFALLOUTCOUGH*

Rurik

I have a decent computer, and the fastest internets conection possible. (in my state) And I have never stolen a game. When you take a mob mentality of "Everyone else is doing it" , well may I suggest that you people find a friend and make like a lemming off a bridge. These theives are not just stealing a game and money from peoples pockets. There stealing innovation away from developers. The Market for PC may have to go to pay to play.

und1sturbed

@Quark:
I have never said that piracy does not harm developers, and what I have said is not lies, please stop your ad-hominem attacks, I have not resorted to name calling with anyone here.

mrrobsa

@mrrobsa: You would be charged with copyright infringement.
Which is theft. Can we stop now?

the-red-terror

When I was broke I would download, now I buy because I'm getting paid. So pretty much my favourite game ever is Rome Total War, which I downloaded off a torrent and subsequently played for like 3 months straight. Now I buy all the Total War games (have retail copies of R:TW and Medieval 2:TW plus expansion packs)...and, crucially, recommend these to everyone as great games. So I don't consider myself a "pirate". Same for music and movies. Try before buy. Good creative products get remembered, and get recommendations...and that sells, too. Those people playing online with fake/"stolen" keys will probably be banned...and then what? Maybe they buy the game having played it and see how good the experience is. Maybe not. Better that they played it at all? Same for music and movies I say again. Too many games, movies and albums are crap to just buy on spec on launch day. Demos fill a gap, but not really for a $60 game. You need to know if it has annoying bugs late in the game, deep gameplay, etc. Same argument for used games at Gamestop, etc. Games are too expensive to just trust these sugarcoated 9.x/10 reviews and buy at launch. Been burned too many times to throw my money away.

hastyp

@3bd: Right, and how recent do you think that entry was made, and how much the recording industry paid to have that entered?

wicko

@mrrobsa: I think you're splitting hairs (or incredibly thin fibers) here. To say (or suggest) that piracy isn't stealing because they're two different words is almost like arguing that your car (or vehicle) doesn't run (or operate) on "fuel" because it runs (or functions) on "gasoline".

Oh and 3bd FTW! lol
Piracy: practice of a pirate i.e. ROBBERY!

Funny how thieves will often have to convince themselves first that what they're doing is ok because what they're doing isn't being called theft outright -it's Piiiiiiracy! Arrrrgh!

The_Saint

@mrrobsa: Did you ever watch the IT Crowd? They had a hilarious bit at the beginning of one show, where they were watching a burned movie and an anti-piracy ad came on, good times.

On another note though, I don't even think it should be called piracy. It is a real term, but when its referring to downloading copyrighted material, its really a slang term for it that the industry coined. Last time I checked, downloading games or movies had nothing to do with pillaging and killing.

wicko

@mrrobsa: Just because you want to live in a delusional world where it isn't harming the developers doesn't mean you should spread your lies to others.

Quark

@Cappy:
Yes. I mean no.

mrrobsa

@the-red-terror:
Piracy is not stealing. That's why they have different names. If you were arrested for pirating copyrighted material, you would not be charged with stealing because they are two seperate things.

mrrobsa

@duckmouth: I agree with pirating Music, I really do, but movies and games I don't agree with, so we are basically almost the same on that account.

As for PC gaming and the problems with pirating, it is very real, and sad too. If I were PC developers I would stop releasing PC games alltogether unless it is through Steam and other similar services or like MMO where you pay a monthly fee or something. Just stop selling them in stores, it ain't worth it at all. Not to mention all the DRM/copy protection crap legitimate gamers have to put up with.

I did however consider pirating Kotor for PC awhile back, cause there was no copies to be found anywhere, and I allready played it for xbox but then I managed to find a copy of "best of star wars" collection box with the game in it in a bargain bin so I never did it. Which I'm glad I managed to find.

Irenicus-the one and only

@mrrobsa: Is that what you tell yourself to help you sleep at night after watching all your illegally copied movies?

Cappy

@anarfox: the should be they. Kotaku need edit function.

anarfox

And btw. Do the know that every one that has pirated CoD4 really would have bought it if the couldn't download it?

anarfox

@3bd:
Please re-read my post, I did not say that piracy was legal in any way.

mrrobsa

Looks like they need a few ninja on their payroll.

Cappy

@the-red-terror: Amen. >_>

Furious_Liver:TF2 name i_have_fleas. Frag me!

Normally the developers keep track if which keys the have generated this way no fake keys (from keygens etc.) work with online play. Wonder what the CoD4 developers choose to do instead.

He is also misusing the term stealing:
"In the criminal law, theft (also known as stealing) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."
[en.wikipedia.org]

anarfox

@mrrobsa: Piracy is robbery committed at sea. Not only is it stealing, it's a word that means stealing that stems from a profession entirely based upon stealing. Don't spread that propaganda anymore.

the-red-terror

@NecronomiconUK: the PC game market is a dead dog because back in the day there would be shelves overcrowded with crap games. That combined with the fact that getting the right system requirements was a hassle for most lay-people and consoles started looking better and close to PC games with less hassle.

jp182

@infi: probably weak as hell when compared to console sales.

But that's just my opinion... based on what I've read at Kotaku alone, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that my opinion is a complete understatement.

The_Saint

@mrrobsa: Uhh... from dictionary.com:

pi·ra·cy /ˈpaɪrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pahy-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun, plural -cies.
1. practice of a pirate; robbery or illegal violence at sea.
2. the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.: The record industry is beset with piracy.

Unauthorized still means illegal if I recall correctly.

3bd

Sell it Cheaper, Make it Better.

Altho the "better" part doesn't apply to the fantastic GOTC that is CoD4.

Arthois

I have some serious double-standards regarding piracy. I would never do it for games, but have no problem with pirating music or films. Wrong, I know, but that's just how I feel.

duckmouth

i thought must games couldn't be played online without a valid cd key??? I bought the game specifically so i could have multiplayer access. Oh well, the game turned out to be the BUSINESS!

jp182

Hence why the PC games market is a dead dog for most developers.

NecronomiconUK

i love pirating...only old films TV shows and SNES roms

invictus2006

Just wanna point out that piracy isn't stealing, that's why it's called piracy and not theft/stealing etc.
Don't like it when companies try to blur the line between the two.
There's an anti-piracy video here in Britain, it might be elsewhere too, and it says 'Piracy is Theft', which is absurd, they have different names for a reason.
It goes on to say 'You wouldn't steal a car'....no, but if I could copy one exactly off of a friend then I might do that.

mrrobsa

@saturnofthesega: Pirating FF8 as we speak.
Simultaneously gathering little piles of money for everything else.

the-red-terror

I don't understand where's the big deal with how many people play it illegaly.
much more important is how many people actually bought it, what are the sales figures of the PC version against the console version?

infi

This is the only COD game I have ever bought and I'm glad I did. The multiplayer is awesome!

EwilTwin

I think everyone who has a descent computer steal a game on bit torrent here and there sometimes.

saturnofthesega

I thought about pirating CoD4, because I hated CoD3, but in the end I decided to do the right thing because my Internet is too slow and didn't want to wait.

>_> That said, it ended up being a great game and I'm glad I bought it.

Revenge_of_Nekojin

I buy everything I can, but once it's impossible to find anywhere but Ebay I feel no shame.

the-red-terror

Great picture choice. His post name choice is pretty saddening though.

Furious_Liver:TF2 name i_have_fleas. Frag me!

This is also a big problem buying PC games, get a game with a used/supsended code? oh well you're SOL.

SkutSkut

Consoles will always require more effort to pirate games (unless it's the Dreamcast, where it was laughably easy), and both Microsoft and Sony work tirelessly to keep their consoles' security top-notch. As of this moment, there's nothing on the PC like that, and there won't be for some time. It's sad too, because the PC doesn't have the barriers to entry that console game development does, but the laughably rampant piracy is going to keep pushing people away.

And considering how well Call of Duty 4 did on the 360 and PS3, it's clear that there are real losses going on in gaming.

Hopefully all ISPs will start banning torrents, and the PC game market can flourish again.

RawSteelUT

I absolutely cannot stand the asinine rhetoric that software pirates spew trying to justify to themselves that what they are doing is not wrong. Every single one of them is absolutely full to brim with pure, steaming bullshit.

May the Banhammer be swift and merciless on you asshats.

doubtful

Game devs, look at WoW: A polished game which can run on every PC from 2003 to nowadays.

Add the online and you're pretty sure a large amount of people will buy it instead of a graphic card.

70$ on Steam? Well screw you and the retail.

harold

from my point of view, piracy through torrents/p2p is not theft as you are not taking someones property without their permission.

that person created the torrent to share a product that they - and i assume rightly or wrongly - bought, and as it is in their possession it is their property.

however, this is not legal due to copyright infringements - unless stated otherwise.

for example, when i used napster/kazaa/winmx/limewire and i was sharing a ripped music folder that people were taking files from, they were not stealing from me.

however, i would be held to be liable for infringing upon the copyright agreement that i had undertaken when purchasing whatever cd's i had ripped.

to summarise: piracy is not theft, but it is illegal in a number of countries.

illocon

@SkutSkut: I got screwed buying some MMO like this. Kept me from buying the game again, so I never played it.

Altima NEO

Honestly I agree they should cut them out. If they put copy protection on the disc, people are up in arms about their rights. If they don't, the game is all over the internet. Even if they protect it, people are trying their best to crack it so they can steal it. We've got to the point where every shooter has adopted the most workable model for a controller, and you can plug in USB devices to go mouse and keyboard if you want. So give up on PC gamers unless a system (Steam?) can be developed that makes it absolutely impossible to do this bullshit. You can't steal a PS3 or Xbox game from a store without someone kicking your ass, why should PC gamers get away with it?

Kinketsu

@Hitokage: Overall Industry (PC) Sales have been far stronger in the past, when many houses flourished as opposed to just a select few. It's kinda depressing to think about all the LEGENDARY studios that have gone belly up.

rainofwalrus

Wtf were InfinityWard doing letting pirate-players go online and get the full experience?! Why can't they do like Steam, limiting pirates to private modified servers (or whatever it is).

Piracy is still the only means when you can no longer buy the game from anywhere. And getting the game second-hand is just as bad! Even game-rentals are better than buying second-hand, I guess (though I don't know rough numbers on how many copies of a game get bought by the rentals).
Thanks to GameTrailers you can finally see whether you'll like the game, so you needn't try it first.

Why isn't xbox360 pirating mentioned, btw? It was done simply by modifying your DVD-drive, iirc. Ah yes, because the single-player campaign of COD4 seems to be nothing special.

The only platform, where you can't pirate games stays the PS3, and I bet it'll stay so for years to come. *hint* *hint*, developers, stay only there if you want 100% of the targeted customers :P. As even if some iso-loader ever comes, there are simple counter-measures.

somarix

I've been kicked in the ass by anti-piracy BS too many times. After a string of three purchased PC games not working due to piracy restrictions I gave up on the industry (the final straw was Overlord which didn't even tell me it thought I was a pirate. I spent almost half an hour on that goose chase before downloading a crack). I let up for BioShock and was rewarded with a game that I can legally only install one more time in my life. Ouch.

If game companies want to curb piracy, they should stop messing with their customers. When I can confidently put my money down on the table, walk home with my happy little box of joy and be safe in the knowledge that this little Doovde is not going to accuse my of high seas robbery - I'll start buying PC games again.

phantomdata

Wow, this is a good way to push devs away from making games for PCs, the ease of piracy.

Maybe all of the "I built my PC because it is more l337" should actually support their platform of choice instead of just arguing with console gamers.

Lou3000

I'd like to know why CoD4 costs +70 bucks on Steam. THAT is a robbery!

Renoistic

@jessejericho: this is true, i bought CoD4, beat it by the 2nd day, played multiplayer for a few rounds and havn't touched it since. Whereas my friend plays it almost everyday. :P

belo

If they could tell the Serial number is cracked can't they block the MP?

inajeep

I only pirate games I have no intention of spending money on... so... maybe 1/5th of the games i'll get in a year.

belo

Nothing against CoD4 guys, but if you don't want your game cracked, put some encryption into it. Steam is a major start for multiplayer as well as a CD authentication. A unnanmed friend of mine cracked the game, plays on a private server, and has beaten the single player. He's younger then me and knows how easy it is to do. A teenage who can do this, is like leaving a store empty

The balance? Finding a way between having some encryption, and not being intustive (Bioshock PC and Sony rootkit)

Sure there is a balance here (Steam is perfect imho)

huginn

The days of intellectual properties are numbered. In these times of copying and sharing being at the fundamental core of the internet there is no stopping it. The entire business model needs to be reworked when you can no longer keep your product in a neat little package. Consoles are only piracy free for those that don't go the extra mile. It was the same with books and printing presses back when governments tried to control who could read what. Times move forward media are the ones who need to catch up.

steam is good.

COD4 Devs are stupid for not stopping duplicate keys from coming online.. they try to blame it on us.. lol

PS. I bought COD4 PC at release because it is a great game and infinity ward deserve our support.. not because I had to or it would be "illegal" otherwise.

Zodduska

The DOS, and later Windows PC gaming market thrived in spite of the advantages of development of standardized console hardware because of several shortcomings, most of which no longer apply.

First, the entry cost and risk for PC developers was relatively low. Console developers risked spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on dev kits only to have their game heavily censored (requiring additional dev cost) or outright suppressed by the licensor. Nintendo of America during the monopolistic NES/SNES era was particularly notorious for this, and I suspect it's a big reason why western-developed RPGs such as the Ultima series were first made for PC, and only ported to consoles when the risk of censorship could be definitively assessed.

Second, middleware-for-hire such as the Quake and Unreal Engine (which can very much ease development of 3D games) were initially available only on the PC; console implementations appeared midway through the PS2 lifecycle. Before this, only the largest studios had such tools, usually developed them in-house, and they weren't inclined to share.

Third, prior to the original XBOX's focus on the online component, multisystem gaming was almost unheard of on stationary consoles, and rare even on handhelds. I suspect this is why Blizzard focused on PC development following the release of Blackthorne; they recognized that the multiplayer component of their Warcraft series was integral to enjoyment.

Finally, the standardization of console components allowed PC graphics to leapfrog contemporary console generations. Nobody, for example, could mistake Unreal Championship for the contemporary Unreal Tournament running on a reasonably equipped PC.

(There were other reasons, of course, such as the efficacy of the keyboard/mouse interface for FPS and RTS games... but I think I've hit on the biggest.)

It's... telling that of all the PC exclusive game releases I've missed as my Pentium III 933 began to choke on the latest tech, I only really wish I could play Age of Empire III and its expansions, and perhaps check out World of Warcraft.

The Confessor

To be fair, there being too many games isn't a reason to pirate anything. While I recognize the fact that there are a lot of good FPS games out there, I'm not going to purchase every single one of them immediately. Honestly, games drop in price if you're patient.

kevinski

More game companies need to do what Steam did. That would fix a lot of these problems, also timing on releases too. Swarming the market with FPS games forces people that can't keep up financially to pirate.

portalis

As someone who is not entirely interested in multiplayer, I would have been disappointed if I had purchased CoD4. The single player campaign *was* fun, but FAR too short.

jessejericho

This makes me sad.

kidko

The thing is that the PC will never die. Piracy will not stop developers from making PC games. The game of better copy protection / better piracy will be played until somebody goes RIAA on the gaming industry.

Incidentally, I pirated one particular game only to find that I loved it so much I ran out to buy it and the expansion. Guess that really hurt the industry, huh?

antialias02

Wah wah...you know, games that cost $49.99 and still manage to crash every five minutes make me sad. How about fixing that before whining about how people are stealing your shit? I might sympathize if the game worked well, but - as is - it really doesn't. Boo hoo...cry me a river. I just want my damn game to work.

kevinski

And this right here is one of the big reasons that major pc genres are migrating to consoles.

4dSwissCheese

I buy my PC games but really dislike the copy protection mechanisms. I often find myself seeking out the pirated version as well, just so I can play without having to put the disc in every time (with associated risk of scratching it, lots of noise from the dvd drive, and slower game startup as it reads the disc).

Copy protection is always broken (often before a game is even released) so why make things harder for legitimate users?

I like the way steam works to prevent piracy but I boycott it due to the bullshit drm which means I can't sell a game on or lend it to a friend when I'm finished with it.

So a system similar to steam which authenticates players individually via a user name and password but doesn't limit fair use rights would be the ideal, though I doubt it will ever happen. It seems to me that most publishers would rather just drop development for the PC than actually work on practical solutions to the problem.

bonaparte

I pirate, a lot. Not PC games, but man there are some good PSX and N64 emulators these days.

Sinfjotle

And people wonder why the MMORPG is such a popular platform for the PC...

Simple...

"Stole a key? We don't care...you will pay next month!"

openedge1

@mva5580: You should read more carefully. The implication was that the Sims and WOW do NOT have high requirements, and they sold millions. I thought that was clear, but I guess I should be more explicit next time.

You ignore 2 things: 1.) Laptop graphics cards cannot be easily upgraded, if at all, and laptops constitute a VERY high percentage of systems sold. And that percentage increases every year as laptops reach the point where they can pretty much do whatever the average user wants (i.e., everything BUT 3D gaming).
2.) Buying that $175 GPU doesn't guarantee that I can run the games I want, and it will have to be replaced the a year, two at most. I can buy a DS for $100 , or a Wii for $250, or an XBox for $300, and those are guaranteed to play all software for the system, and will last twice as long as that video card will be useful.

Also, if you want to sell a lot of something, you're going to have to win over those "lazy people." Yes, most people don't want to fiddle around with their computers to get software to work. Hard to believe, I know. Those same "lazy people" keep shoveling money in Nintendo's direction and not toward PC game companies, for that exact reason.

My point was that they're not selling games that run on mainstream computers, so they don't get mainstream-level sales. I don't see anything in your post that effectively argues against that idea.

erlik

True, but is piracy really the reason?...I think it was actually 3D graphics cards that have slowly killed PC gaming.

That's not really a legitimate defense when we're talking about the actual percentage of gamers playing COD4 online with pirated copies. Obviously their computers can handle the game. These aren't people just testing the software on their outdated hardware; they're just asshats.

I will agree with you to some extent, though. I don't think it was just 3D graphics; I've always appreciated how the PC gaming community pushed the envelope. We wouldn't have the PS3 or the 360 were it not for PC soft and hardware developers trying to eek out extra frames and more polygons.

I think the greater issue is complexity. We can pop a disc into our consoles and it works, but building a gaming PC requires a bit of know-how and a lot of people just don't have the time to keep up. I did for many years, but just got tired of the whole thing, and this is coming from someone who used to have about 12 different boot floppys. Ah, autoexec.bat, where are you now?

My Live! gamertag is ComputerFund for a reason. I was saving to build a new gaming computer, but after researching for two months only to get caught in the trap of waiting just a bit longer for that new chip or new card, I gave up and bought a 360.

doubtful

If the developer was stupid enough to release a game that plays online with pirated keys, what do they expect?? Server authentication of store bought keys keeps the kids nowdays honest - they all readily download music and movies for free without thinking its "wrong", and games are all available at the same sites.

To significantly reduce piracy, you have to either have unbreakable copy protection - not possible aside from unique server authorized keys for online gaming, or make it inconvenient enough to not pirate - ie, consoles requiring modchips to be installed or making your console so unreliable that people don't want to mod it (*cough* 360).

jrcbandit

Yes, piracy is a problem...but that doesn't mean that the number of pirated copies of a game equals that many copies not being sold. A lot (maybe most) people who play pirated games would buy them in the first place.

Again, that doesn't mean that piracy isn't a problem. I personally know a couple of indie developers that went bankrupt because of it...and that is a problem...

DaViper

@doubtful: I think you can make a case for piracy being OK, in certain instances. In the case of the music industry, it's actually quite easy to make the case that people SHOULD be pirating (to destroy the soulless music companies, let a wider variety or music flourish, and let artists make their money on live performances, with acts coming to the fore through talent and good music instead of being foisted on the public through advertising).

Used in a principled way, pirating can be a kind of "anti-vote" or "null vote" in the "vote with your dollars" school of thought. For example, I might be curious to see how bad Uwe Boll's latest monstrosity is, but I'll be damned if I'm going to support his continued, ahem, "efforts."

It allows you to experience things you don't actually want to support, for one reason or another. And media/software is fundamentally different than other goods because I can take it from you, and you still have it to sell to someone else. It's not a zero-sum game.

erlik

@erlik: I understand the common person's frustration at the prices of high end PC components. But your excuses are the excuses so many people make who are mis-informed when it comes to PC gaming.

The two games you make examples of (WoW and The Sims,) are if anything examples of games which are HUGE hits and don't have the high system requirement problem. My girlfriend's laptop has a pathetic "integrated graphics" Intel solution from like 3 years ago, and the game still runs. Does it run great? No, but it's playable. And The Sims did not have high system requirements, not by a long shot.

You see the problem is that people like you (and so many others) associate a $500 graphics card with "Well, this is what I absolutely NEED to have to enjoy PC Gaming, and I can't afford that, so I'll just play consoles." Which is absolute garbage because you absolutely DO NOT need to buy all of the high end components to enjoy PC Gaming. You want to know what the most amount of $ is that I've ever spent on a GPU? 175 bucks. And I have NEVER had an issue with running games in high resolutions, and having a quality gaming experience. It's not my fault, or the industries, that A) people are incapable of educating themselves, B) finding good deals, and C) Doing research.

The fact is that PC Gaming is not for lazy people. It's not for people who just want to put the game in and play. If you want to use that reason as why PC Gaming has gone downhill, fine. I get that, because so many people now are just lazy and want to have everything done for them. But then, you show those people what PC Gaming is capable of, and they're hooked. Those people may not end up playing a ton of PC Games, but once they've seen what the platform can do, they know it's the best experience.

So while I acknowledge your attempt at a logical reason as to why PC Gaming has suffered, hardware is NOT it. Just as in surround sound theater parts, HDTV's, cars, and everything else, you're always going to have the hardware whores who feel they need to have the newest thing, just to say they have it. But for you to act like everyone NEED'S those things to be able to play PC games, you, and a lot of people like you unfortunately, are mis-informed, and just wrong.

I play Crysis just fine at 1680 x 1050 resolution, it looks beautiful, and my PC was NOT expensive. Believe whatever the hell you want, but it's fact. Perception has certainly altered reality a great deal in this discussion.

mva5580

You do not have the right not to be disappointed.
You do not have the right to feel like you got your money's worth.
You do not have the right to "try before you buy".

Although these are possible outcomes of purchasing a game, they are not inalienable, God-given rights. Just as you don't have a right to happiness, but rather the pursuit of it, you do not have a right to pay for only that which you feel like paying for.

There is no moral defense of piracy. If you download a pirated copy of a game you have not purchased but are able to purchase (personal finances notwithstanding), you are acting immorally. Not only that, you are bringing down the very industry that creates your pastime.

You are biting the hand that feeds you.

Toasticus

@rainofwalrus: True, but is piracy really the reason? I highly doubt it. Back then you could just copy all the 3.5 diskettes without any problems, which took a lot less time than downloading gigabytes of data. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who did it.

I think it was actually 3D graphics cards that have slowly killed PC gaming. They keep upping the ante on graphics, and with higher graphics card requirements come heavier loads on the CPU, RAM, etc. A lot more people could run a game like Civ or X-Com without any problems then can run Crysis or even COD4 smoothly. I know my computer doesn't have a prayer. And I can't upgrade the graphics card because it's a laptop.

Look at what types of computers are big sellers these days (laptops are really popular, and getting ever more so), think about what kind of graphics cards these computers tend to have (weak!), then look at what games the industry is pushing and what the requirements are. Look at the huge hits over the past few years (the Sims, WOW), and think about how demanding the minimum requirements are for those games.

Piracy MAY be part of the problem, but it's a tiny part compared to what the industry has done to itself over the years. What other industry prices the majority of consumers out of the market, then blames the consumers who DO still buy their products for poor sales? And to top it off, the market segment they're targeting, the "hardcore gamer," is full of people savvy enough to know how to use bittorrent and interested enough in games to want all the big titles, whether they have the cash or not. It's sort of like trying to sell art to artists -- the consumer is more discriminating than the average Joe, and if they see something they really like, they might just decide to copy it instead of buying it.

So, uh, that's a nice corner you've painted yourself into, guys, but you can stop whining to us. I don't see anybody over on THIS side with a paintbrush.

erlik

I've bought this game 4 times(twice for me and twice for others)and my friend pirated it for me so I could see what it was like on my new PC. I deleted it afterwards.

nobodysleeps

Never pirated a PC game, not once. Ever. I buy everything, because it's a market that needs to be supported due to the mass amount of idiots out there who do pirate.

You have to choose between doing what's right, and what's easy.

It's a damn shame that the PC is easily the best gaming platform out there, yet all the developers are going away from it because it's so easy for people to download games for free. Very irritating to me.

I agree with the premise that if the PC industry is going to begin thriving again, something needs to change dramatically with how games are sold. A service like Steam seems the most appropriate, but I'm sure there are other solutions as well.

I've never been really for all the DRM, authenticity checks, and everything else that people who have rightfully paid for a product have to go through now when they buy it. But the PC industry needs to do something drastic if people aren't capable of being decent human beings on their own.

And reading ANY kind of justification for pirating a game makes me want to throw up, or hit something. You know what? If you want to justify pirating something, how about you grow a set and go to the store and just steal the game from the shelf?

mva5580

It's possible his numbers could be semi-flawed with those who bought the game on Steam (I know I did) not having an actual cd-key.

CyN1caL

@saturnofthesega: You'd be wrong.

Some of us have something called "morals".

Some of us also don't like the idea of our works being stolen.

LaserJudas

@mrrobsa: I hope it's a head examination because you need it.

jammydodger

I think people are not realizing that they are not entitled to entertainment since it's not a necessity like food, shelter and water. It doesn't matter what excuse you're using to justify the acquiring of said software you are stealing. If you're man enough to go and download some piece of software at least be man enough to admit that you are stealing. :)

CecilTheDarkKnight

From a strict legal definition Piracy may not be "theft". See: [legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com]

BUT - mo matter how you justify it, if you pirate games or music or movies or whatever you are denying someone revenue for a product they invested time and money into producing. I self-published a book (both paperback and electronic versions) that was copied quite a bit. Was that theft? Maybe by strict legal definition it wasn't since they didn't come into my house and steal physical copies. Are they taking money from me each time it is copied? Certainly just as if they took it from my wallet. (actually now they are denying revenue to a charity)

I personally see it as theft. Once I got over the initial anger and realized that people were still going to steal it, I stopped making physical copies and asked for people to make donations (what they though was a fair amount) to a local charity then I would email it to them. You know what's sad, hardly any of them did. Greedy and Selfish or Justified and Righteous? I'll you you decide.

FlimFlaminus

A quick few comments.

1) Piracy hurts the gamers more than anyone.

You have to put up with crappy copy-protection schemes because a) publishers want to protect their investments and b) lots of retailers, especially in Europe, will not stock games without copy-protection.

For mega hits this does not matter, they sell enough that sometimes you get no copy-protection or they ignore it (like CoD4). But for not-so mega sellers piracy hurts.

2) Piracy kills franchises

It does. Two of the franchises I've worked on have a 1-legit-to-3-pirated-copies ratio (based on sales data, online numbers and patch downloads). Both are ranked award winners and ranked 90%+. Both are loved. Chances of you seeing sequels = next-to-non because of sales. Without piracy both those franchises would be alive and well with sales of over a mil.

So who loses in the end, you the gamer. And copy protection schemes will only get crazier to try and stop this.

Sure, a pirated game does not take money directly from our pocket, but it reduces the chances of PC developers working on future titles or forces them to work on copy-cat products as they chase high sales projects in an attempt to negate the effects of piracy.

You ever wonder why so many games seem like copies of each other?

unknown_dev

@SAKY: Yes but the most pirated consoles (Xbox and PS2) are two of the most successful consoles simply because it is easy to pirate.

yojimbo32

Copy protection killed the PC game scene. That and needing to go online and download a patch the day the game comes out.

I bought X3 and it installed starlock that was grouchy with the settings of my DVD drive!??!?!?! I bought NWN2 and needed to patch the game before I could play it. Oh and I need to have the CD's of all my games on hand and if I reinstall the games I need to have the serial number handy (that's not printed on the CD where it makes sense) or I can't use it.

Mr/s Pirate has none of these problems. S/He may have to wait an extra day or two in some cases, but cracked copies need no CD in the drive, keygens are easy to get and patches are also cracked promptly.

When your business punishes the paying customer, don't expect to have many customers left. I gave up on PC gaming (apart from WoW) after those last two games.

noboard

I do pirate games but it is only to see if I like it. If I do I go buy it at my local store. The reason for this is that developers put so much crap out that I have already purchased. I am afraid to spend my hard earned money again on a piece of crap. I own well over 200 games that are legit so you can see its more of a rental system for me. I don't agree with just pirating a game so you don't spend the money. I always support the developers and their imaginations. They have just been releasing a lot of crappy games lately though.

Tactiks

ok please dont get me wrong. i live in a place where the only way to be up to date with whats out is piracy ( saudia arabia ). im a game design graduate and i really do know how hard it is to make games. i had manny talks with people from the industry about the situatioun i face over here with piracted games, and the only response i gotten was somewhat a sign that the developers dont really care about the middle east situation, being a third nation country and what not but hell i used to care. Honestly now, I don't.
why should i care if they dont ? i offered a soloutioun for that problem but no one wanted to start an initiavive so why should i stop pirating games now ???
+ prices are really high for games over here and it takes forever to hit the market to. so again why should i care ??

Nightmare_osx

whats worse is the amount of people using aimbots and then denying it when it shows up via death cam lol foolys

2kreative

This is something that I never understood and maybe someone could shed some light on it for me. I used to work at a now out of business retailer who sold games and movies. Stock would come in on invoices and money was paid out by HQ for the items. Doesn't it at that point make the game/movie paid for? If money is changing hands upon receipt of the item in a store it becomes that stores property and responsibility to sell it. By that note wouldn't all of the makers' get paid from this initial purchase? Wouldn't the cost of the mark up in stores be the profit a store would make upon selling the game/movie? If this is the case then doesn't piracy only hurt the retailer?

The only place I know that this is not the case is Walmart, which forces companies to provide stock and recieve payment later, reduce prices, force companies to take back unsold stock.

pigmartyr

@Anthropomancer: because 40% of it are sales, and if that's more than it did cost, why NOT do it?
not everyone who has the intention to buy a certain game does own a console, and I think there are more people who would buy the game for PC and not pirate it, than people that will buy a console just because they want the game.

infi

@K-Squad! (Badass Edition): It still wouldn't be thriving.

The PC industry is crap because of more than just piracy. The big limiting factor is hardware. Most people have poor systems and they're just too expensive to upgrade. I mean Crysis runs decently on 8800 cards but anything lower runs it like shit. The 360 will still be able to play new games 2 years from now without needing an upgrade.

It's no wonder the console market has taken over. Also don't be fooled. Piracy is nearly as easy on the consoles. All it takes is a mod chip and a few blank dvds.

Iron_Dragon_2.0

@K-Squad! (Badass Edition): one thing we can be sure of: No matter how perfect THE INDUSTRY becomes, somebody will find a way to bitch about it.

rainofwalrus

@the-red-terror: i feels ya man lol

MedelliaObscured

What's truly sad: we are living on borrowed time as we strive to fulfill our manufactured desires with products that offer an "escape" at great cost to our environment (both earthly, spiritual and mental). Everything is free because you can't take it with you when you return to the dust... did I mention I'm tripping right now?

Bentendo

@erlik: Rewrite your post replacing "Us/We" with "Me/I" and the holes will appear.

rainofwalrus

I'm pissed... besides actually buying the game (or collectors editions if i can) what can a normal guy like me do to stop piracy? i feel like i'm helpless while all my fellow gamers kill the industry.. Think about how much the PC industry would be thriving if it wasn't for piracy...

K-Squad! (Badass Edition)

I think what people need to remember here is that the disc itself isn't what we're paying for. When you shell out the $60 at Best Buy you're essentially paying for the license and right to use their game and code. Which is exactly why a game publisher is entitled to replace any destroyed game disc, so long as you can prove you bought the game. (Mind you, you might have to put out five dollars for shipping.)

This is also why altering the game code violates the end-user license agreement and takes any responsibility out of the publisher/developer's hands. So in a sense, it's not theft per say, but it IS illegal.

Back to the original topic, I just have to think that it's not the worst thing in the world. I mean, the PC sales weren't the greatest, but I didn't expect them to be. Call of Duty 4 seemed to be geared for console gamers, not PC. I mean, 1 and 2 were basically PC games with a 360 port for the sequel. 3 was handled by a completely different developer. You can't sit here and tell me that this was a huge shock to any of the execs over at Activision (it is Activision, right? Hell, if I know) They were banking on the console ones to begin wi