honestly hasn't everyone said this by now other than Nintendo Alone Fanboys is that why should i buy Okami on Wii when i playied it on PS2 Why should i Buy Bully when i playied it on PS2 and No More Heroes Looks nice but i just want Zelda, Mario, Samus, Smash Brothers games like i have with GC, N64.

Raziel3333

@DrakeLake: Actually the game's going to be on the 360. So, you're wrong :)

PeterQC

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...:

/agree

I think it is a multi-part issue ... what you said, and the fact they don't "need" to until sales drop off, and by then it may be too late for 3rd parties to care.

EnigmaNemesis

Worry not. I shall purchase No More Heroes for my Wii, and gladly on my 360 should the sequels go that way.

@horsejacked:

Second party isn't a real industry term, but it refers to a third party that is either partially owned or entirely dedicated to one console manufacturer.

First party is wholly owned.

heliophage

Third party games aren't selling because they aren't being advertised. The Wii's target audience has something to do with it for sure, but if 3rd party companies actually put a little effort into selling their games, then they would be much more succesful. Resident Evil 4 is a prime example of a 3rd party game that sold well on the Wii.

Green-clad Gamer Dude

@Dr.Chocobo: @Plunkett: Goddammit. I take September 21st off for a Birthday, and I miss important information.
I blame Plunkett and his Ps3 bashing.
(My accusation doesn't make any sense, but neither do any of the other Plunkett accusations.)

Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!

Part of the problem is that people will buy the Wii just because it is Nintendo. The same goes for their games. People who buy the Wii want the Mario, and the Luigi, and the Zelda, and the Donkey Kong. They don't care how crappy the game is as long as it has the Nintendo characters. The only reasons GameCube didn't do so well was timing and support. Had it come out earlier, it probably would have sold a lot better. Also, rather than dropping the price a little more and continuing the support of the GameCube, Nintendo decided to just say fuck you to the people who either couldn't afford a Wii (I mean come on, at 250, everyone can afford that, right?) or couldn't find a Wii. People walking into WalMart asking if they have any GC games are told that there might be some old sports titles buried in the value bin, while people looking for PS2 games have an entire case or more devoted to them. Anyway, if a Nintendo game doesn't have one of Nintendo's staple characters, people don't want it. The company in general is built around mascots rather than gameplay (I'm not trying to say that games with Mario can't be good, rather that whether the game is good is not held with as much importance as whether the game has Mario in it). Other than that, the gimmicks are what sell Nintendo's systems. N64 brought 4 ports, Virtual Boy, well, we know what happened there, DS brought the touch screen, GameCube was made tiny and transportable, and the Wii brought flailing your arms around. Nintendo systems are no longer about what games you can come up with and how you can make it fun, rather, how you can make things different, whether that different is for the good or not.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

Go Pikman 3 go!! I CAN STILL DREAM!

Ignis

@Samaridino:
Let me predict something since he's starting to feel this way:

That Suda51/Kojima project? Probably going to end up on the PS3 alone. No reason for it to really be on the Wii now.

Hope I am wrong, though.

DrakeLake

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!: I bought two copies of Okami haha. Admittedly, I lost the first and had to get a second. And thats on top of the review copy I was sent! I'm pulling my weight haha.

StolenName

"I wasn't expecting that Wii would be a console targeted only for non-gamers." while Suda is one of my favorite game designers this really makes me feel like he wasn't paying any attention to Nintendo's "plan". Saying that is about as bad as what my friend said after getting sent to Iraq after joining the USMC going "We'll I wasn't expecting to be in a war".

liberty0x

@ambitious009: From what I understand hes actually working on a wii game with Kojima....

Samaridino

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!: Nah, he really is making a 360 game.

[kotaku.com]

Dr.Chocobo

@Gunhaver:

Yes. They now market primarily to casuals.

What was Killer 7's excuse?

Because it didn't have the same factors except for the fact that it's game design is very niched.

Mact

The problem is that the hardcore aren't fooled by the approximate movement detection of the Wiimote; the mainstream, non-gamer is.

I mean, who in their right mind would purchase a mouse for an FPS that wasn't accurate to the micrometer? Which reminds me, how does SSBB control with a Wiimote?

The appeal of the Wii is the control method, so once people see through the high-tech smoke and mirrors, then it'll be time to shift the attention to something new (like the Wiiboard).

boopadoo

Maybe if more third party Wii games didn't suck so much...

StolenName

@huginn:

So having PS2 ports are all of a sudden caring?

I don't buy it. That is just third parties trying to test the waters and cash in on easy porting. And them seeing that this stuff isn't selling, even original titles like Zak & Wiki and No More Heroes, makes them even more the weary.

It will take Nintendo, investing in 3rd party devs like Sony and MSFT to get the games rolling. Their past with the N64 and Gamecube is still lurking, and the attachment rate being so low, they will have to try even hard than MSFT, especially.

And they care not to try, since they don't "need" to. The only way they will start trying, is if Wii sales die off, and their profits dip.

EnigmaNemesis

@Kirbytheslayer: I never got Zack and Wiki because I had to make hard choices during that end-of-the-year blitz which threatened to bankrupt us all, but you're right - good third-party games are getting crap sales on the console.

Maldron

@Gunhaver: Does nobody read Kotaku anymore?

[kotaku.com]

Plunkett

I'm curious.

Is it the console maker or the publisher that shovels out funds for advertisements?

Because I have never seen a No More Heroes commercial on television.

Though, the Zak & Wiki point stands. No one buys it because people tend to not look past the cover on games. Look at Wind Waker. Great game, but it would not have been touched if it hadn't been Zelda.

It's a shame, but even the most hardcore gamer can be completely close minded.

Mact

I've decided this.
I will buy the game, regardless of if I have a Wii at that time.
Anything to keep the true innovation in games coming.
(I even bought Okami just to guarantee better sales, even though I don't like adventure games(ala Zelda)

@ambitious009: If your source is anything other than a Dev. from Konami, a 360 head honcho, or Suda himself, it's just a lie and a rumor.

@TheCleaningGuy: Wrong Kirby.
I run off of HL2's Source Code. Which means I could easily run on the Wii, unless EA was porting me.

@Shindokie (psn and xbl): gee.
Thanks. That's so nice.

Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!

If developers would cut out the shovelware bullshit, I'd be willing to bet third party would rake in the cash.
Say what you will about the Wii, but it is selling like crazy and owners are desperate to play something new on their systems.

Lazy and crappy game development leads to lackluster sales.
Make better games and we will buy them.

AdmiralRupert

What exactly is the difference between third and second party?

horsejacked

Suda games on Xbox? One can only hope.

@kidnicky: because Nintendo markets primarily to casuals--the EXACT people who wouldn't buy No More Heroes.

Hate.

Gunhaver

@EnigmaNemesis: disagree. Give how a major punch of recent titles have come from third party exclusives (Bioshock and Resistance come to mind), it is a major boost to software and system sales (I bought my xbox for bioshock) Nintendo would be a fool to just simply ignore them. Yeah their common place showcase of updated titles is a massive seller, but it's still very early in Nintendo's lifespan for those huge third party slammers to come out. (usually in year two for most consoles)

Basicly, they care, just give it some time for the next conker's bad fur day Wii edition to show up. (they are already luring aton of late model PS2 releases.)

huginn

No More Heroes 1 and so forth... 360 and PS3 LETS GO!

Trowble (XBL/PSN)

Have there been any commercials for this game here in the US?

DrakeLake

I don't understand why several people here always blame Nintendo when third party games fail. Suda 51 made the game. How is it Nintendo's responsibility to make sure people buy it? How would they even go about that?

kidnicky

The problem mainly is just that his games are made for a niche market. Kinda like Tarantino flicks.

Im suprised he thought the Wii would be the hardcore console of choice though. Considering how nintendo never was really viewed as the hardcore console for quite some time now. Only back in the SNES days did it kinda have that title because of the backing of Square and Enix and such.

Witzbold

That's stupid. Even i, know that the Wii ISNOT a hardcore console. You are so good damn stupid Suda.

THE WII ISNOT A Ps2. Doesn't matter how much you sell, the only software that will sell on it, are the Nintendos' ones.

qbanboi

and they keep buying said crap.

TinyLightning

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!:

Why do they fail?

Because only people like you and I who visit sites like these actually know about them.

Mact

It's Japan me thinks. Look at all the crap JRPG's they're STILL putting out. I crap a muskrat at JRPG's.

TinyLightning

@ZinkO: can do italics now!: Suda didn't just mean Japan, he meant USA as well. Maybe producing for USA on a diffrent console? Who knows...this is depressing.

Dr.Chocobo

I think Goichi Suda is working with Konami on a secret 360 game if I have my sources right.

ambitious009

@ssjmichael:

Yep!

They don't care about 3rd party, because they don't have to. They profit from their system and game sales. And thus the lack of "needing" third party like Sony and MSFT, ultimately makes gamers suffer. Not to mention marketing your console and the majority of sales more than likely the new "casual/non gamer" market has a lot to do with it as well.

EnigmaNemesis

Killer 7 wasn't the hottest selling game in history either. Is the problem the Wii,or the fact that Suda51's titles don't exactly target the mainstream?

Zack and Wiki is another example of something that obviously is only going to appeal to a niche crowd as well,regardless of quality. I personally am not like this,but we all know 90% of consumers looked at the box,deemed it "kiddie",and never thought of it again. Doesn't matter how well made it is.

kidnicky

Third party games are selling for the Wii. The first party titles are doing better, but you can check the top 100 selling videogame products on Amazon at any time and you'll find several third party Wii games. If you liked Wii Sports, I recommend one of the top sellers currently Winter Sports.

13 of the top 100 selling videogame items on Amazon right now are 3rd party Wii games. That does include Mario and Sonic at the Olympics b/c it was made by Sega.

[www.amazon.com]

spartan1308

@Shindokie (psn and xbl): Actually apparently he is. [kotaku.com]
I think he made this project on the Wii however as he somehow thought there would be a large audience there looking for unique hardcore games, but unfortunately it appears that audience wasn't there, or at least that large, after all.

Nirolak

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!: When will they port your near-finished Gamecube build to the Wii?

TheCleaningGuy

It really is sad but expected. When a majority buys the Wii for just Wii Sports and other "non-gamer" games, as he puts it, of course other games won't sell.

In the beginning when this was happening, people would say "Up the quality of your games, then you'll get some love." No More Heroes is as high quality third party as it gets folks. I expect this to happen to Okami as well.

Dr.Chocobo

I always like strange games. No More Heroes looks like it was made for Otaku. Too bad most gaming nerds will not buy a Wii for it does not have the high-tech specs that most game nerds want. Wii owners do not understand games beyond mini-games.

Just bring the game to PS3, the gestures will still work. You won't have to make the graphics realistic.Cartoony still works in games.

jackal888

They should have done a better job at advertising, or something. though i have seen numerous articles on the game, i wasn't interested enough to read. Hell, the only thing i know about the title is just that.
i should also note i do not have a wii.

Ahsayuni

@ivan225:

But a lot are gems too. Zack and Wiki for one. Put Mario and other chracters in that game and have the same gameplay and it'll sell like hotcakes.

It's a damn shame really, and I chalk it up to how Nintendo treats developers and their games, compared to their own. Sony and Microsoft care more about forming stronger bonds with 3rd party developers, but Nintendo fails to do so. You'd think they'd learn their lesson from their past consoles failures....

ssjmichael

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!:

BUt i don't think people would want to play with you :/

Shindokie (psn and xbl)

Its been this way for a long time on Nintendo's consoles they sell more of their games than anyone else and they do not care about 3rd Party game makers and their sales.

ExtremeOne316

i think one of the reasons why that no more heroes didnt sell to well in japan, is that its censored.
i believe alot of the jp wii owners wernt to happy bout that at all..
i have a feeling that this game will sell very well in us. there will prob be some jp players importing our version..
thats a 1st!!!

xtraman

And so it begins, from what I have been saying all along!

Make a 360 version and guaranteed it will sell 100 fold.

EnigmaNemesis

If he understands well enough that it isn't selling on the Wii then why doesn't he try something different on the other consoles. I know some people willing to throw money at this guy because of what he has made. He is the kind of guy who will always have a crowd ready to buy his game once it hits the shelf. I hope this guy luck because i think he is one of the few guys willing to try something different.

Shindokie (psn and xbl)

@TheCleaningGuy: I'm the new Kirby.(When you consider the original is from the 80's, and I'm from the 90's)

Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!

Isn't this what us "Nintendo haterz" and "360/PS3 fanboys" have been saying for a while?

People buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games. Third parties aren't likely to make a dent. Meanwhile, Sony and Microsoft built themselves in the past on third party titles.

Sure, now, they are all multiplatform between the two. But both companies band over backwards to accommodate them still.

PapaBear434

I dunno if this game would have sold in Japan regardless of system.

ZinkO: can do italics now!

Yet he still wants to make more Wii games? Come on over to the PS3/360 Suda, we'll give your games more love. Hell, make em multiplatform.

ssjmichael

well a lot of the 3rd party games are trash anyways.

ivan225

nintendo's 1st party games are too good for them to ever be the third party lead console

shinko

I'd be quite happy with a PS3 port. Please and thank you.

PooPooKaKaBumBum

Nintendo carries another generation with first-party software.

This is me surprised...

Edge of Blade

I must say, that's pretty hard evidence against the argument that hardcore 3rd party Wii games will sell.

Simply put, two of the biggest Non-Nintendo games on the Wii flat out bomb.
Seriously, it's kind of awkward when both "No More Heroes" and "Zack and Wiki" fail so miserably in sales.

Actually, it's flat out wrong.

Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!

I think he just pwn3d the Wii. I'm not sure.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

I'm with you Suda, I was hoping for some hardcore gaming on the wii.
Anyone remember how neat "Red Steel" looked at first?
Or Project Hammer?
And when are we getting that new Kirby?
Or the rumored Kid Icarus Wii game?
I'll buy your game Mr. 51, I promise!

TheCleaningGuy

Is that No More Heroes toilet paper?

Maybe you shouldn't associate your product with crap!

Jaegs

@RawSteelUT: actually, nec kind of killed the turbo itself, first of all, having around 10 different versions of your consoles is more confusing than the hdd thing with the ps3/360... supergrafx, coregrafx, etc etc. the cd peripheral was ridiculously overpriced and had no games, yet in japan, it had a great library. i knew about nintendos licensing issues and third party monopoly that actually was ruled illegal before the turbo died. the genesis was a hit and only lost to the snes because they didnt support it as long and confused consumers with crap like 32x, and even the sega cd (americans dont like peripherals, and the japanese mega drive wasnt so popular). at one point, sega had 65% of the american videogame market, because lets face it, we like sports and violence, and sega offered just that. the genesis was the first playstation. but id imagine that mercury meltdown, geometry wars galaxies, and medal of honors heroes 2 wouldnt have faired well on the massively popular ps2. first of all, nobody compares with msft when it comes to online multiplayer in an fps, not even sony, and their service is free. and geometry wars is hard to buy in disc format when you can dl it, as much as i love old school games, ive even struggled with buying them for a standard console in optical disc formats. but lets face it, nothing thats not gta, madden, halo or something of the sorts will sell well in this generation.

shouryuuken

I guess Suda thinks that Zelda, Mario Galaxy, & Metroid are "for non gamers?"
Teh bitterness!

psychicfriend

I'm a little curious where any precedent exists that there's no market out there for third-party, hardcore Wii games, especially in the US. What games fall under that category so far? A lot of that demographic would have played the ps2 rehashes, and wouldn't buy into the kiddie image of Elebits, Dewy, or Zack & Wiki (and the lack of advertising would keep kids from picking them up.) Fire Emblem? Disappointing, maybe, but did it do any better on GC?
I'd love to see No More Heroes do well over here, and plan to buy a copy when it hits, but while the uncensored version should resonate better with Western audiences, especially those starved for a fresh hardcore title, I've got to agree with the lot of you that say that it'd take a TV spot or some considerable word of mouth to reach any significant sales. On this or any other console.

mobiusxxiii

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...: Most of the worst shovelware for Wii (Ninjabread Man and such) was originally developed for PS2. So I'm not really sure what to do with your argument.

sxp151

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...: So you think the people who were working on the game would not be able to tell if their game was crappy? That's a bit naive on your part. There are people on development teams whose jobs deal specifically with weighing the quality of the game with the development costs. Those people at Nintendo are notorious for being extremely selective with the quality of game they allow to reach the market, and that is why Nintendo's first-party standards are so high. That won't change with the new Mario Kart, I guarantee it.

Stormrider900

@Doshu: That's certainly a well-written opinion, and explains why even when Nintendo puts out a new IP, they don't put a lot of effort into getting the word out (even the print ads for stuff like Pikmin is limited). If it's not Mario, Metroid, Zelda or Pokemon, they're not going to push the games.

RawSteelUT

@Doshu: Btw, despite more than 20 years of playing games, Mario is the only game I'd ever played on a Nintendo console previous to buying my Wii.

Is that Nintendo's fault? Or yours? That's actually a pretty spectacular record of avoiding some good games.

sxp151

@thepolyamerouscoz: One could say that all the shovelware is a sign that they don't care about the third party games. As long as it's giving them money, they don't care if you put out Wii Teaches You How to Breathe or This Game Is Nothing More Than a White Screen. The systems that actively work with third party companies are the ones that get good third party games with less shovelware. Really, most of the games that I would consider shovelware for PS2 I only see that way because they are games for kids and not my demographic so they look stupid to me.

Well, now that I've written enough in this article for a graduate thesis, anyone up for some Warhawk? I might even play drunk.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@PapaBear434: I bought a Wii for Mario, Zelda, and Smash Bros. To a lesser extent Metroid and other 1st party titles.

Though I'm also interested in upcoming 3rd party titles (such as No More Heroes), I have to agree...

I have my PS3 for PSN titles like Stardust and Pain, as well as The Orange Box and upcoming big titles (GTA, MGS, etc.).

Though if it came down to it. I'd rather spend the money for the Wii (and future Nintendo systems) for their games than any other system and its games. Nintendo will always be first for me.

2NinjasTapedTogether

@Doshu:

Very good points indeed!

EnigmaNemesis

Nintendo doesn't care about their third parties????
The hell you say, look at the terrible trio "Ninjabreadman" "Anubis 2" and some god awful game with an Elvis like main character. Nintendo has more third party then anyone should be allowed to have, they HAVE SHOVELWARE!!! Its just that the japanese KNOW nintendo has their shit together and know what they are doing, so ask yourself, if you had to choose between working with some new guy in glasses and a tie or some old vet with a bit of gray in his beard, who would you choose? I'd go with the vet due to the fact that the new guy wouldn't know what I wanted.
Those are my thoughts at least. Maybe I'm just insane.
~Peace~

thepolyamerouscoz

@PapaBear434: People buy Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games.

I think it's more than that. People associate Nintendo consoles with existing Nintendo franchises. Mention Nintendo to most people on the street and they will immediately think of Mario. If you ask a "gamer", they might also know about Mario Kart, Mario Galaxy, Paper Mario, Zelda, Metroid Prime, Monkey Ball, etc, etc. But many gamers wouldn't have even played those (me included, even though I've been gaming for >20 years) and even Nintendo fans continually list those games as the reason to buy a Nintendo console.

I think if Nintendo really wants this to change, they need to take the risk of clearing out some old IPs and introducing some new ones (even though the old ones sell really well). Stuff like Wii sports and Wii fit are bringing in new customers, but they do nothing to make those customers consider what other games might be available for the console as they're unlike most games on the market.

Sony and Microsoft have both handled this much better. Both consoles have a good mix of new IPs and old IPs. None of them sell as well as something like Mario, but the "wealth" is spread more evenly between 1st party and 3rd party developers. Their support for new IPs and their 3rd party devs willingness to try new IPs also helps.

Btw, despite more than 20 years of playing games, Mario is the only game I'd ever played on a Nintendo console previous to buying my Wii.

Doshu

@Stormrider900: I doubt that by the time the magazines are getting copies to review they would cancel the release date to do a complete overhaul of the game such as fixing broken controls or trying to put the charm back in the game. Things like that are basically things that would require starting over from scratch to fix and Nintendo would simply prefer to release the game and have it suck than basically have to pay for developing the game twice. Things like online not working or a level causing the game to freeze are reasons to delay a game, not the controls suck and the game is boring.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@Sparkamus:

Exactly ... if only they advertised some of the third party games in the commercials, like the other 2 do, and make people go, "I wonder what that game was, I need to check it out"!

Instead, they are advertising a lifestyle, and the people buying it, are not buying all the right games.

EnigmaNemesis

When third-parties actually start offering interesting gameplay concepts in the form of a fairly well polished game, then they will start to sell well. So far, most third-party companies have yet to do such a thing.

Most of them are simply taking advantage of Wii's popularity and cheap software development costs. As a result, the Wii has received too many uninspiring and low quality mini games, ports, franchise sequels, spin-off games, tv show/movie licensed games, and original and multiplatform games. Shovelware.

It's just a shame that No More Heroes has a lot of things working against its chance for being financially successful. At the very least, the developer will most likely be recognized and praised for making good use of the Wii controls and offering one of the best original games on the Wii.

Damn, it's just depressing thinking about how bad this potentially cool game will sell. Just sitting here right now talking to all of you knowing that we could have tried to prevent it from happening.

I'm sorry Suda 51. It seems that there's just not enough fans out there to support your games. Whatever happens, please continue to rock on.

Hiltz

Companies need to advertise. Discussion over.

ImBigBob

@Sparkamus: By Metroid " own commercials" I mean commercials without those two bastards in the Smart Car.

Sparkamus

@shouryuuken: That was because Nintendo took advantage of NES' strong sales to strongarm 3rd parties into anti-competitive contracts, a practice that was deemed a violation of anti-monopoly laws only AFTER the Turbo died. The Genesis only survived before Nintendo was forced to loosen the screws because of the powerhouse Sega was in the arcades at the time. The initial reason 3rd parties abandonned the N64 (in addition to the cartridges, of course) was that they all had a bad taste in their mouths, especially Square Enix, who got royally screwed with cart size for Chrono Trigger. Nintendo's move to optical media with the Cube and now the Wii have helped (NO 3rd parties would be making games for Wii if it was cart based), Nintendo's shift from monopoly to 3rd choice has led to a crowd that is increasingly hostile to 3rd party games, screaming up and down that they all suck, despite gems like Geometry Wars Galaxies, Zack and Wiki and Mercury Meltdown Revolution, despite EA pounding their heads against the wall for 32-player online with Medal of Honor Heroes or non-friendcode online with Madden 08. 3rd parties are trying, at least some of them. It's just that the core Nintendo user hates 3rd parties and the non-gamers only want Wii Sports and maybe Wii Play.

RawSteelUT

@huginn:

/agree with you there

No question!

EnigmaNemesis

@EnigmaNemesis: I also notice that Nintendo ads focus on the system rather than any specific game--even Mario ads. Two Japanese guys show up in a smart car, and then the camera pans to a family having fun. Camera focuses on the game they are playing for half-a-second, then the camera devotes thirty seconds to the family doing strange, unnecessary motions around their Wii. I think Metroid Prime 3 faired relatively poorly because Nintendo didn't advertise it with its own commercials and because the ads disappeared after about a week.

Nintendo would sell more of their own games if they would do what BioShock did. Advertise a lot before the game is released and in the two weeks after release. After that first push, sprinkle the holiday TV schedule with a few ads between Thanksgiving and New Years.

Sparkamus

@RawSteelUT: For the Crash and Spyro thing, they probably aren't selling as well as they used to because, while some people still see them as mascots, they truly aren't mascots anymore. They aren't that game that says "this is Playstation" anymore. The games that do sell of them are probably mostly to people who remembered playing those games on Playstation back in the day or people looking for a game that looks wholesome.

Also, thanks for finding an example of a game that people will continue to buy even though it sucks.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@EnigmaNemesis: touche, I forgot about Nintendo's old third party rules. The old Maniac Mansion 'edits' just came to mind

Of course, one thing to remember is due to the Wii's system shortcomings. It does lower development costs in a few areas. Mainly since next gen graphics aren't an option. No 1080i resolution for the models. As well as it's apparent commented ease to develop with (as stated by a few producers, atleast compared to that of the PS3) This lowers cost (less development time) enough to where it might be cheaper to develop over a more expensive, time consuming PS3 with a subsidy. This is of course a 'might'. I'd need to see hard facts to back this theory up.

But if anything, it might encourage smaller third parties who would not get anything to work with the Wii due to it's ease.

If you build it, they will come they say, but I agree with you on the point that Nintendo needs to get in the third party game. Sooner rather then later. It's newly found cash cow needs to be backed with the right food. Otherwise you'll see a repeat of what happened with the GC when all the first party title games had run there course and steam had run out.

And on that note, bed. Have fun responding to everyone Engima :)

huginn

I think the problem is that 3rd party titles don't really know who they are marketed to. Zack and Wiki is the best example of this. I'm not sure who it's target audience is, and I think most people know very little about it. Look how well Resident Evil 4, a Gamecube port, sold.

Take a reputable franchise, put a solid effort into a sequel and put it on the Wii and it will sell. If Capcom took the RE4 engine and did some sort of side story like Code Veronica was, I'm sure it would sell very well.

I think a lot of the "hardcore" gamers that bought the wii had envisioned their favourite franchises with interesting controls. Problem is, most of these popular franchises ended up putting these titles on the systems with more horse power and putting shovel ware on the Wii instead (see square for example, I'm sure every wants another Crystal Chronicles!).

Roland25

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin: I mean GOOD Wii games.

And I'm a Sonic fan without being part of the idiot clique... a lot of the newer games aren't actually that bad. Sure, I'll give you Shadow and 360/PS3, I don't know what they were thinking with them, but Secret Rings is actually all right.

Gah, there I go defending Sonic again. Third time today.

Sabre_Justice

@EnigmaNemesis: Also, Super Paper Mario has an 85% at Gamerankings so apparently I wasn't the only one who enjoyed it.

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile: But what chance is there of Nintendo releasing Mario Kart Wii if the gameplay turns out horrible and the charm is gone? Zero. If that were the case, they would delay the game and fix it, like they always do. I admit I don't know anything about the Wii Sonic game, but from what I've heard people say it's a decent game that's a lot better than most of the Sonic vehicles on the other consoles.

Stormrider900

Developers need to learn to stop blaming the audience of a console when their games don't sell. There is competition to be considered and quite frankly, I have severe doubts about how well No More Heroes stands up next to Nintendo's offerings. Couple that with a complete lack of realistic advertising, and you just can't hope to get much of anywhere.

Humorously enough, while the Wii might be trying to appeal to new audiences, the vast, vast majority of Wii owners fall under the same demographic as ever.

DimensionWarped

I think he's just being pissy cause his game isn't selling in Japan. I mean...

"I wasn't expecting that Wii would be a console targeted only for non-gamers. I expected more games for hardcore gamers. The reality is different to what I expected."

What? I'm sorry. The majority of Nintendo's own releases are marketed towards the core gamer. If Japan doesn't buy them, what makes you think they're going to jump right on your title, developed by a virtual nobody in a sea of Capcoms, Konamis, Namcos, and Squares? Maybe the commercials show it as a casual device, but the core gamer doesn't need convincing to buy gaming product, just needs to be pointed in a direction to consume.

I agree, they do need to spend some advertising dollars on some of these third party titles. Nintendo would be wise to aid them, because there's no way that third-party games are really going to cut into their piece of the pie. But to say that they won't sell is a foolish concept. Didn't the RE4 Wii version sell over a million fairly easily because of a good pricetag, the added control scheme, and a few ads here and there? Meanwhile, Zack and Wiki? I saw not a single spot on television, ever. No wonder it was a total failure. SilverStar95 is onto it.

Regardless of what you think about Nintendo, the simple fact is they put out a LOT of quality software. Look up a list of million selling titles over the years, and it is dominated by Nintendo, they have to be doing something right. Suda isn't making art, he's trying to sell entertainment, and on a Nintendo system. So, either his title needs to be amazing, or needs to be advertised.

ampillion : works it harder, makes it better, does it faster, makes us stronger.

@CenatorC: I don't think they can ever rehash it to the point where no one will buy it because systems cycle so frequently that no matter how many system generations down the line you go, the main group of game buyers will have grown up with Mario.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...: Oh I'm sure Spyro and Crash still sell, but they're not blockbusters like they used to be. There was a time, believe it or not, when Crash Bandicoot was incredibly popular IN JAPAN. Those days are gone.

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile: Mario seems to be unique. While Crash and Sonic have become small-time compared to other games, Mario games can suck absolute balls (Hello, Mario Party) and still sell into their 8th iteration.

The new gimmicks thing worries me too. Peripherals are always a turnoff for me, mainly because I don't want to have all that crap in my home. Is the Wii going to be a system where you're REQUIRED to have a bunch of peripherals to have anywhere near a satisfying experience? What happened to just having one controller and being happy?

RawSteelUT

*sigh* can we move on? no im not a nintendo fan boy, but this is old news. nintendo started out as a GAME company, so making games is what they do best. does anybody remember when nintendo had tons of third parties supporting them, so much so that nobody else could get third party games? back in those days "hardcore" consoles were made by sega and nec, and a great majority of the games that ppl bought their systems for were by guess who? sega and hudson. but even with that, nintendo had all their great franchises that alot of ppl still bring up today. nintendo is just doing what theyve done best and third parties need to pay attention and make games worth a crap. i dont get all the flak they get, bringing up games like no more heroes and zack and wiki isnt really fair, because we all know how well okami, shadow of the colossus, beyond good and evil and other critically acclaimed games did on ps2. yet the ps2 wasnt casual, only the wii.

shouryuuken

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin: I honestly don't see people buying PS3 games just because they are desperate for new games. This whole idea that they will accept anything is not true. If that were true, we wouldn't have 20 copies of Icon or Spiderman 3 or Dark Kingdom that will never sell. Even on the PS3, if a game sucks, it isn't going to sell.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@EnigmaNemesis: Hey, I liked Super Paper Mario! It wasn't as good as the first two, but it wasn't bad. Plus, that's hardly a 'core franchise'. And Pokemon may be the same thing, but it's still a deep and addictive portable RPG in all of its iterations.

Stormrider900

Like Zeropunctuation said about the Mario franchise its like a damn frankenstein. Nintendo will just keep rehashing its games to the death!! And thats what keeps them afloat.

CenatorC

Honestly people are just drawn to bad titles that appeal to them. The average system owner does not go to kotaku, ign, gamespot, 1up or read any kind of magazine; For all they know they think GameStop develops every game on the floor. They just go to what they think is cool, this is why Jaws Unleashed is a PS2 greatest hit.

Anyway, there is a problem with advertising. The average kid doesn't want a game with unfamiliar characters (Zack and Wiki) and the older Wii owners feel too afraid to play anything outside of Wiisports and Wiiplay. This is where they find a middleground with games like EA Playground and Carnival Games.. and unfortunately to an extent with games like Rig Racer 2.

eboku

@Stormrider900: I was referring to the Sonic game for the Wii, thus making it a valid example. Also, it was just the first thing that came to me. Also, I didn't say that mascot games suck, I said that people will buy them regardless of how good of a game it is. Example: My girlfriend wants MarioKartWii badly. Not because she has heard anything good about it, but because it's MarioKart. Even if it comes to release time and she hears that the controls don't work and the game has been raped of whatever charm it has had in the past, she will still want it. Another reason she wants it is that it comes with the steering wheel. Hey, look, another gimmick. Now, before anyone says that I'm biased because I wouldn't consider Gran Turismo coming with a steering wheel to be a gimmick, understand that the reason that the steering wheel is a gimmick is because it does nothing for the gameplay. The game still plays exactly the same, it's not like changing from using a controller to a wheel where everything is changed. I don't even consider packing WiiPlay with a controller much of a gimmick because the pack in is useful for something.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin: Ratchet and Clank, which many people agree is the best game on the PS3, is a second-party game which was advertised well and sold like shit. So I don't know what conclusion you can draw about Sony fans.

sxp151

Does anyone have the heart to explain to this guy that No More Heroes is the best selling game he has made up until this point? His games don't regularly race up the charts. NMH outsold Killer 7 (which was released on multiple platforms with a bigger install base than the Wii).

MoogPaul

@Stormrider900:

Until you can point me to a core franchise Nintendo game that sucks and still sells well, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

The new "Paper Mario"!

Granted it is a first time, but there is always a first time for everything, and all the rest after that will still sell, guaranteed.

And anything Pokemon, come on ... same thing, over and over ... the name sells.

EnigmaNemesis

Yep. The Nintendo-Console-Curse. Its been out since the N64 and everyone knows how Nintendo hardware is driven by 1st party titles and not 3rd party like the PS brand.
It is sad, seeing original games not doing well on sales (¬.¬ looking at you Pychonauts) but even if some sort of advertising is being made, well the average joe doesnt go into Gamespot or IGN or buys gaming magazines, nope, they watch TV and the only games that are most likely to get a TV ad are big name releases like Halo or a Mario game, sad but true. I think that some TV ads would help a good game like Okami or NMH...or at least help sell a little more =D

Hades

@RawSteelUT:

Yep, Pikman and Fire Emblem are just as "polished" as any Nintendo game ... but they don't sell as well as Zelda or Mario game. So the whole "Nintendo games sell better cause they are more polished" argument has a flaw, and that is (take out Mario/Zelda) and they "don't sell so well cause they are so polished" anymore. Their mascots, and their promotion of everything that is their stuff is what makes them money. And that is all they care about.

You can watch EVERY CES and E3 the past few years. What was Sony and MSFT doing? Showing off kick ass 3rd party titles along with their own fist party features they offer.

What was Nintendo doing? Talking about Nintendo .. crickets ensued around 3rd party mentions, and the lack there of them.

EnigmaNemesis

@RawSteelUT: Care to back up that "million Mario games a year with only a couple remotely playable" statement with some facts?

DIAF troll.

Zio

This is actually relatively depressing, because I know even as much press as thisgame got, unless it is very good, Suda 51 is in for even more of a shock when he finds out how small the number of people who care about a quirky murderous game like that own Wiis.

mmmmmVidyagames

@RawSteelUT: I think that mascots are a good way to get things started, but when it becomes what your system is based on, you have a problem. Crash was a good way to get Sony started in the gaming world. Spyro was a good replacement mascot to draw in some of the younger crowd while Lara Croft brought in the older crowd. However, these games are no longer the focus of Sony because they have established themselves and are able to draw in new IPs and unique gameplay. However, even though those Crash games and Spyro games are nowhere near what they used to be, they still sell, because people will buy the games just because they are Crash or Spyro.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...: Sonic and Nintendo games are not the same thing at all. Until you can point me to a core franchise Nintendo game that sucks and still sells well, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

@Stormrider900: Also, I forgot to mention in this post that the claim that Nintendo should advertise for third parties is a little less viable on than on the PS3 and 360 because Wii development is inherently much less expensive. So if your budget is much smaller on the Wii than on a 360 or PS3 game, why can't you spend some of the money you saved on your own damn advertising?

Stormrider900

If No More Heroes wants to succeed in America, all they need to do is show a commercial with Travis slicing somebody in half and blood streaming out of them. Gratuitous violence and lightsabers will probably=success in this country at least.

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

@Detre: Problem with that is that the example of Okami is the exception rather than the rule. Hell, the only other two I can think of that shared such a fate were Beyond Good and Evil and Psychonauts, both of which were also platform action-adventure, oddly enough. There are tons of great games on the Wii that toally flopped, compared to a relative handful on the Xbox and PS2. Capcom already has two flops on the system and it's only been one year. I can't imagine them being able to say that on the other systems.

RawSteelUT

@Detre:

Those games would sell on the 360 and PS3 because Sony and MSFT would help promote them, and possibly pay part of advertising like they do for a lot of third party games. Maybe not Zak and Wiki, but No More Heroes, definitely would.

Nintendo doesn't advertise anything outside their own. They don't need to. They profit, and it is unfortunately good enough for them, but not good enough for the core gamer.

EnigmaNemesis

Like I said in the last thread on this subject, I don't understand why 'core gamer' and 'Nintendo fan' are mutually exclusive categories all of a sudden. I have both consoles and enjoy them both but I expect different things from them. I can't imagine a consumer going in to a decision thinking 'well, this one costs half as much and doesn't have the same graphical power, but I'm sure I'll still get plenty of the great FPS games that I love'. It's just a silly expectation.

The thing is: it's true that there is a dearth of good third party games on the Wii, and it's equally true that Nintendo does not prostate itself to get third party developers on their systems because they prefer to just make their money on their own software. That's their business strategy and they're cleaning up on it. Now, the impasse comes when you consider whether the impetus is on Nintendo or on third party publishers to solve the current gulf on the Wii. People who are saying that Nintendo's practices are strangling the core market think that it's their job to outreach to developers, whereas I take the different stance in that third party publishers need to take the first step and make more ambitious games for the Wii that take advantage of what the Wii does well that actually merit advertising kickback before they should magically expect a handout from Nintendo.

The reason I think that is because third party 'core' games are having no problems at all selling on the DS, a system that is in largely the same situation as the Wii. They are both leading their respective markets in sales, both have unique control schemes, and both have a more significant appeal to the casual market. If Konami can make good money on their Castlevania games for the DS when they make them to a reasonable standard of quality, then what's preventing third party publishers from doing that on the Wii and letting the market create itself? I think that with Ubisoft agreeing to publish a risky title like No More Heroes in the US, and supposedly revamping Red Steel in a big way for the sequel, and Capcom's efforts like Zack and Wiki and the upcoming Okami port, are the only real efforts by third party publishers to take advantage of the Wii's abilities, and I want to encourage more of that. But I don't think the responsibility rests solely with Nintendo like many people seem to.

Stormrider900

@Lezard: The people who are reading gaming magazines aren't the people who are ignoring third party titles. The people who aren't buying the third party titles are the people who don't do any research and just go for what is familiar.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

But Cruisin'

Len Bias Cocaine Surplus

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in prof...: Yep. Though to be fair, the Sonic franchise has lost a lot of headway over the years, mainly because of how poorly Sega's handled it over the years. Still has a stupid fanboy clique, but it doesn't bring in the droves the way it did in the Genesis days. And yeah, Nintendo relies on its mascots to the exclusion of everything else. And this, more than anything, is why 3rd parties won't ever get any headway on Nintendo systems. It's damned hard to make a mascot that resonates the way Mario does, and the streets are littered with failures (Bubsy, James Pond, etc). People buy good games on the PlayStation line and Xbox line without the need for a mascot, mostly because the PlayStation and Xbox lines don't really have 1st party mascots either (Crash was on the PSX for a short while before Universal raped that franchise). However, as has been said, even Nintendo first party games without Mario don't sell that well. Games like Pikmin and Fire Emblem tend to sell piss-poor. Thus we get a million Mario games a year, with only a couple of them being remotely playable. And the Nintendo fanboys eat it up.

RawSteelUT

@Sabre_Justice: Wii games get PLENTY of advertising. Have you seen EGM in the last year? I don't know about TV commercials but Wii 3rd party games get a ton of exposure in print and online ads. Maybe it's a combination of casual gamers that aren't interested and savvy hardcore gamers that know most Wii 3rd party games have turned out to be horrific? Everyone I talk to that is a true gamer, fanboyism aside, acknowledges the fact that 99.5% of the stuff released on the system so far has been atrocious. It's not the Wii's fault so much as it is the developers' fault for taking advantage of the casual masses that aren't capable of telling a good game from a terrible one. The problem is that none of those terrible games have "mario" "party" or "games" in the title therefore giving them no chance in hell of selling to anybody. The games like RE4 sell based off of their past reputation and I guarantee you that more than half of those RE4 sales came from people who already had the game on the GC or PS2.

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

I still think its way to early on to even talk about what sells and what doesnt. Games like Zak and Wiki, and No More Heroes wouldnt sell even if they were on the ps2. They would sell better then on the wii of course due to the ps2s massive install base, but overall they wouldnt make a drop in the bucket. Not because they arent good games, but simply because these arent the kind of games that sell. I think because of the fact that we are such avid gamers and we know alot about these types of titles we have blinders on to what the rest of the general gaming world knows. Joe Jock guy down the street doesnt want to play Zak and Wiki. We dont make up the gaming majority anymore its time we got used to that. Hell look at Okami. That game was praised by so many people, yet it didnt sell well. Whose fault was that? Clover? Sony? Gamers? Nintendo?

Detre

Seriously, if there's one thing that the third-parties need to do, it's advertise more. Even Nintendo's niche games like Fire Emblem get at least a modicum of real marketing with magazine and online advertisements. It's much harder to find advertisements for third-party Wii games, some of those are technically for multiplatform games that tend to push the 360 and PS3 versions ahead of the Wii.

I'd love to see No More Heroes succeed in the west. I'm picking up a copy of the game next week. I know it's no guarantee that more advertising dollars = more sales, but when your advertising is near minimal to start with and depends largely on word-of-mouth, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Lezard

Well, given that the majority of 3rd party Wii games for 2007 consisted of "let's port this PS2 game" and "oh shit! we totally didn't think the Wii was going to take off like this! quick! crank out a party game!", it's hardly surprising that the real quality gems are perceived as only coming from Nintendo.

Let's see how 2008 starts out now that devs have actually had some time to come up with something good. And if not... well, that'll be disappointing, but I've got a PS3 and a good PC, so I really don't care...

smitty1123

A lot of third party games don't get commercials even for PS3 and 360 but do well because Sony and Microsoft show them some support. I, for one, find it to be more effective when a game's advertisements come from the system manufacturer rather than the game producer itself. It is like the manufacturer's way of saying that this game stands out from the crowd and is a must own. The only ads that I have seen for Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, Ratchet & Clank, or Warhawk have been the PS3 ads that show clips of their most popular games, yet they seem to be successful.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@huginn:

The NES was the "king of third party titles", because it was the ONLY SYSTEM SELLING out there. Master System was non-existent in the world, especially the US.

They also had a harsh and hostile licensing system that tarnished a lot of 3rd party devs to this day.

And winning means nothing if the attachment rate is so low. Why would a 3rd party dev make a game for the Wii, when they can get help from MSFT (money for advertising, etc) and sell 10 times the amount with less systems out there, where it would take the Wii probably 3-5 times the systems sold to even reach those numbers.

Attachment rates are a huge issue this time around with the ever increasing development costs. And the risks don't outweigh the rewards, unless there is help and some swooning from the console maker itself.

And Nintendo wont change more than likely until the sales slow down on the Wii. They will have to do a lot of proving themselves, since they look no different than the N64/GC days so far.

EnigmaNemesis

@Raziel3333: Yeah, lots of games on the PS3 and 360 that only get print advertising will still pull in their 500k and make money. The Wii is a loss for any 3rd party.

RawSteelUT

It's the third parties' own damn fault they're not selling- no advertising means you get overshadowed by first-party blockbusters and buried under shovelware. It's as simple as that.

Sabre_Justice

@Last_Raven: I wouldn't exactly call Killer 7 a classic. The gameplay is almost non-existent in that game. It would've been much better as an anime.

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

@Stormrider900: It's nothing I can prove, but I don't completely agree with that. People have a suspension of disbelief when it comes to games that involve a system mascot. People who have played Sonic since they were a kid are going to buy every Sonic game that comes out, even though all of the new ones suck. They'll even fool themselves into believing that the games are good, no matter how incredibly broken the game is. When it comes down to mascot games, it doesn't matter if the game gets a review of 4/10 or 10/10, it's going to sell. It's the reason why Pokemon Pearl and Diamond can come out on the same day and people will buy both of them, it's the reason why I ended up with a copy of that Sonic game for the Wii, and it's the reason why people buy Twilight Princess for the GameCube and the Wii. They need to have every game that has ever come out with that character in it. If you put out a game called Mario Appears In This Game for 5 Seconds and Mario literally only appears in the game for 5 seconds and the rest of the game has no plot, a broken engine, horrible graphics, and no other loveable characters, people would buy it.

Now, I know that everything that I said there is a matter of opinion, but mascots sell to the uninformed customer, and the casual gamer is more likely to be uninformed. I don't know how many times someone has asked me at work "Is this Sonic game any good?" and then they proceeded to buy it even after I tell them that I felt like I wanted my money back after playing the game even though I got it as a gift because well that kid just loves Sonic and it doesn't matter what Sonic is doing. I've literally had someone tell me that it didn't matter how bad the game is, the kid loves Sonic and will like the game anyway just because it is Sonic.

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@EnigmaNemesis: add Viva Pinata to that list. That game is BEGGING for a Wii port. Saddly, we need the rare of about 5 years ago for that.

huginn

@kidnicky:

I'd agree. A lot of brilliant games aren't mainstream but pure classics such as Okami and Killer 7. The hard core gamers will naturally snap these games up but an average person won't see the ads because the games may not have such a large budget.

Not to say that "all" small budget titles are good, but they are like Indie films. Some are good, some are bad, and some are gems the mainstream miss out on. The thing is that the Nintendo "Seal of Quality" used to mean something at some point in gaming history. I'd like it for Nintedo to say to these companies, "Look, we want to make money, but your games are crap". Since that's not going to happen, maybe we should *takes a deep breath* STOP BUYING CASUAL CRAP GAMES. I can't keep waiting for Nintendo's next big hit. I'm almost at 121 stars Nintendo and I got all platinum on Link's Crossbow training (cute, but just ok).

For Suda to say that 3rd party games aren't selling, maybe he should rephrase to say his game isn't selling because the Wii is generally not directed at the hard core, beat 'em up, GTA IV audience. Casual games are doing well, but I have always said that the casual gamer is the focus of the Wii. I don't have any problem with this, but if you bought one, don't expect too many games like "No More Heroes" to come by.

Sorry for the scatterbrained rant, but I have a lot to say about this...

Last_Raven

you know what NMH and Zack & Wiki have in common? they weren't advertised. at all. i didn't even know about Zack & Wiki until i read about it from some of the game reviewers who were trying to urge people to buy it. problem is, game mags only reach a small minority of everyone, not just gamers. i haven't even seen one ad for No More Heroes anywhere. how the goddamn hell do you expect people to buy your game if no one even knows it exists?

i do not understand how game devs feel they can either create shovelware and expect amazing sales OR create awesome games but not advertise them in the "mainstream" and expect sales. no one's going to buy your product if no one freakin knows about them!

Nintendo has a lot of brand name and character recognition, definitely. but Nintendo also realized that they needed to push their games and systems out to the general populace, get people to understand that what they make might actually be fun. they've been running an excellent, focused advertising campaign targeted at the mainstream. and it's clearly been working. similarly, Activision and EA have widely advertised their sports games and Rock Band/Guitar Hero type games and gotten great sales, for all of the major consoles.

bottom line: GAME PUBLISHERS NEED TO FREAKIN' ADVERTISE THEIR PRODUCTS. YOU CAN'T JUST EXPECT SALES TO FALL IN YOUR LAP.

fightinfilipino

Gott@EnigmaNemesis: I absolutely agree with that. Viva Pinata would have done great on the Wii. Just like Lost Odyssey would have done much much better on PS3 than it did on 360 in Japan. Nintendo gamers only want Nintendo games, XBOX gamers only want to shoot things and catch footballs and Sony gamers seem to have a broader taste but at this point are willing to accept anything as theirs.

This is why we need a 1 or 2 console market! 3 consoles is too many and with only 2 consoles around 3rd party sales would do much better. Remember the 16 bit days?

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

@EnigmaNemesis: They have a system that they can't keep on the shelves after a year and change on being out there. Last time that happened was in the 80's with the first nintendo system. The NES, the king of third party titles.

I'll agree their recent history flat out sucks (merit, during n64's later life cycle, it has some sexy third party titles) But as they say with sports, winning solves all problems. All those sales is cash to a developer's eyes, and they'd be foolish not to jump this wii-wagon. Give it to this year's e3 for some of the big hits to show up. This is of course, purely my speculation and estimation. A failure for any big name third party titles to show themselves will kill the wii. but given how much sales success they have seen, it'll be foolish, for nintendo, for developers, to let this untapped market die off.

huginn

Truth be told, I wonder why 'good' third party games don't sell on the Wii. I don't think it is because of Nintendo's first party games because had that been the case the N64 and Cube would have been major hits.

Obviously, however, only Ninty titles are selling. Does this not strike anyone as ironic? I think developers just don't know what the hell to think anymore, lol. I don't even think Nintendo knows what to think, lol.

R3load

@EnigmaNemesis: Viva Pinata was awesome, I don't care what anyone says. Kameo was just sort of a dry hump for a proper Banjo Kazooie sequel.

Stormrider900

@Ninja-Z: Well the stuff they publish themselves is what I meant. It was more of an issue last gen than it is now though. I bought my original PSX because Square had announced FF7 for it. There was nothing I wanted on the system until I knew that game existed and during the wait for that game stuff like Resident Evil came out that made the Playstation brand what it was. Sony certainly didn't do it with their own games and without Halo there wouldn't be an XBOX 360 for us to talk about right now. Remember the original XBOX's exclusive games last gen? Outside of the TECMO stuff they were downright awful.

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

Well maybe not PS3 and Xbox but how well did Shadow of the Colossus Sell i dont rememeber to many Massive Commericals for that or Persona 3 not here at least.

but anyways my bad but Sony and Mircosoft Have BOUGHT companies for 2nd party which is kinda 1st party but not they don't really make games themselfs they produce them.

Raziel3333

Between horribly poor quality titles flooding the market for Wii, the good games not getting any damn advertising, and the rare gem that does get advertising but is otherwise expected to just be another cash-in... Is it too surprising that only Nintendo games, which generally get huge, front-page advertising marketing in magazines, that get huge TV roll-outs in a ton of commercials, that are on the tongue of everyone, are the games that sell?

Buzz, people. Games need buzz. Drop an extra 100k into marketing and you'll recoup the costs from the sales. Make the game a statement, AND fun. Find your market and exploit them relentlessly. It's not the Wii's market is exclusively casual, it's just that it's flooded with it. So, look at the "hardcore", try to market the game at them and maximize the reach.

SilverStar95

@EnigmaNemesis:

Actually, with a name like "Viva Pinata", I actually see it having done amazingly well on the Wii.

Why?

Because the title and the look is deceptionally kiddy and parents would pick it up for the young'uns.

Mact

@Ninja-Z:

So Metroid is second party?

EnigmaNemesis

I think this is a bit of a cop out. Capcom has a great track record of selling games on Nintendo systems. That said I'll be picking up No More Heroes as soon as it's released here in Australia.

Zio

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!: "I take September 21st off..."

Off of checking news?

*Punches Penguin*

...

Where's my prize?

Dr.Chocobo

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin:

Come on, if Viva and Kameo were on the Wii, those games would have been "awesome like for sure", instead of decent!

IMO

EnigmaNemesis

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin: Actually, Microsoft and Sony do not have first party titles because they do not make games themselves. They rely upon second party titles which closely related companies (Bungie Studios, or example) make and they produce. Nintendo is the only one of the three capable of releasing its own games.

Ninja-Z

@DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin:

Microsoft and Sony have first party games?

Mact

@Raziel3333: No.

sxp151

@EnigmaNemesis: It sucks for me to have to feel this way about Nintendo, though. I mean, I have the noise plush Question Block, Goomba, Star, and Turtle Shell, along with a Mario and a Luigi plush hat, and I still have an NES and a Super Nintendo. I want to be able to enjoy the Wii, but I just can't. The fact that every time I try to do a firmware update my system locks up doesn't help things, but I need new, good games, and not promises of games. I need them to see a pitch from a 3rd party and ask the people "What do we need to do to get this game on our system?" and not have Nintendo ask "How much are you willing to pay us to have the privilege of putting your game on our system?"

ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile

@sxp151:

That's exactly my point.

If the publisher doesn't make a point of getting their game out to the public, you can hardly throw all the blame on the system's public face.

Mact

@Kirbytheslayer: Punch the Penguin and Win a Prize!: No More Heroes is not out yet in the US or Europe. Who knows, maybe it'll catch on here. I'm certainly buying it when it comes out. And yes, Suda is making a 360 game for Konami. The thing we don't know is that he and Kojima are supposedly making a game together, and Kojima is obviously the most visible Konami developer, so whether the Suda-Kojima game and the Suda-developed Konami 360 game are the same game or separate projects is still unclear at this point. Presumably because Kojima is putting all his energy into MGS4 right now. Although I have to say if the Suda-Kojima game is for 360 I am pretty excited about the potential there.

@ceilingFANBOY: sponsor me for PolarBearPlunge, link in profile: That's a misleading assertion because the reason why Nintendo fans want their consoles is because their first party software is overwhelmingly excellent. So you can't say something like 'their mascot games will always sell no matter how crappy they are' because Nintendo doesn't put out bad games in their core franchises. Ever. They just delay them for however long it takes to make them up to the standard of quality that comes with the Nintendo name.

Stormrider900

I think another part of the problem is the fact that Nintendo sets the bar so godamn high with their own games making it almost impossible for 3rd party games on the same console to get any kind of recognition. The only reason 3rd party games do so well on the other platforms is because MS and Sony 1st party titles have pretty much been garbage up until recent memory.

DontTouchMyDaughterYouFilthyGaijin

@Raziel3333:

Examples or it didn't happen.

Mact

@heliophage: I see, thank you. I knew the difference between first and third, but I kep hearing second party bein gtossed around as well.

horsejacked