Neh, the japs still have it, all they need to do is play all the PC games that the rest of the world have played. :P

ssh83

I'd have to disagree 75% of my (VG) library is developed by Japan. especially since I've been buying alot of JRPGs from Atlus and NIS.

Sweet Tooth

@RemyDuvalle:

I feel compelled to point out that what I said, was that Japanese developers should, "learn," from games like, The Orange Box and Starcraft. Not create carbon copies of them. That'd be a bad idea all and all, and would completly miss the point of learning from the games.

What I meant, specifically, is that there are reasons why games such as Half Life, the Sims, and Starcraft, work. These elements that allow these games to work, can be carried over into several other genres, and could theoretically be carried over into other genres that haven't been created.

So rather than copy the games. What I suggested was dissecting them. Learning from them, and carrying those lessons over to new games. I mean, What do you think would happen if Square, dissected games like the Sims and Half Life, and tried to apply that sort of customization and interactivity to an otherwise old school console RPG?

I dare say you'd get a console RPG that was far fresher, possibly genre-redefining, just because Square took some lessons from Western game genres, and applied them to a typically Japanese genre.

WolvenOne

It's strange that this is phrased as though the west hasn't always been behind most of the innovation in the game industry. Hell, the JRPG was invented by Richard Gariot.

The west has always been on top in terms of game quality and innovation. It's just that most of it went on in the traditionally niche PC market, so most people didn't experience it.

Pantsman

While I really like the Japanese gaming industry saying the western gaming industry has no innovation seems unfair. I've seen many people on Kotaku say how innovative games like Little Big Planet, Spore, and Portal are and all of those are developed by western studios.

On the other note of the overall sense of the Japanese industry not being as prominent as it used to be like others have said I really agree that it's not that the major marquee series such as Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Gran Turismo, or any others have seemed to drop in quality but rather the quantity of new and exciting games coming from the country seems to have, especially in relation to the Xbox 360 and the PS3.

Using Square Enix as an example, since the days of the original NES Final Fantasy games came out at the rate of three a generation but now FFXIII is already pushed back to 2009 and many people even doubt it is coming out then. Square also has yet to deliver a single game (discounting the port of FFXI) on the PS3 or 360 and their titles on handhelds and the Wii seem to have been met with mixed response, with many of them yet to release in America despite six plus months of waiting. Konami has also yet to release a major title (not counting sports games) to the PS3 or 360 as well, and after Metal Gear Solid 4 they have yet to announce another major title coming from their Japanese studios (as Silent Hill 5 is being made in America).

Capcom and Namco actually seem to have had the most success in getting new and exciting titles from their Japanese studios out the door. Capcom seems to have actually become one of the largest and most prominent developers worldwide in terms of the 360 and PS3 and Namco's release schedule seems to indicate they may be quite shortly. I highly doubt the Japanese industry will fade if just for the efforts of these two companies, but its the lack of games from traditional paramounts such as Square Enix and Konami that I would have to assume is causing most of the concern, but I can't imagine Sega largely farming out development and Mistwalker's failure for many to reach expectations have helped others, as well as a seeming lack of Japanese developed games at both Sony's and Microsoft's E3 conferences.

I do expect we will soon see a large resurgence of games coming from Japan from studios other than Capcom and Namco (as well as their continued success), and hopefully that's coming from their historic success and the reasons Ben Judd stated rather than just my hopeful optimism.

Nirolak

@McPoogle: Well, the point of Japanese devs making Western-style games wouldn't (just) be because they're becoming more popular in Japan... it's because the big bucks are made in the US.

I don't know, I just see bigger developers and publishers trying to push Western-style game design so they can sell it over it... whereas I see the smaller, Japanese-centric developers refraining from exporting their titles. Which would suck... as I too am closer to a Japanese gamer than a Western one... though, I play games of every style and genre.

To me, it just seems like Western gamers as a whole are just interested in 1-4 genres... FPS, Third-Person Shooters (that control just like FPS, but your character, for some reason, has to take up 1/2 the screen), RTS... and retardedly casual (meaning casual to the extreme where no thought or skill is required).... oh and I guess HUGE, EXPANSIVE, FILLED-WITH-MEDICORE-CONTENT RPGS.

I mean, I like really good FPS...and I even like some of the unnecessarily large RPGs like Oblivion (though, I find it highly over-rated)... but I just don't understand the hate.. or lack of love for Japanese shmups, or colorful, unique games.

Additionally, it just seems like having Japanese devs focus on Westerners would be even worse than Westerners focusing on Westerners. There are SO many contrived, uninspired Western FPS, RTS, etc... that just feel like they're cashing in on some other game that was just popular. I just think that having Japanese-developed western-style games could result in a lot of terrible Japanese games...

... but then again, it could also result in some awesome japanese-style additions/features in these now predictable genres. But I wouldn't count on it.

RemyDuvalle

...I still prefer Japanese games to be honest, so I can only hope they don't try and start emulating Western developers. I'm not a fan of games like Halo, Gears of War, Call of Duty, God of War and stuff like that...not sure why; but give me a copy of Elebits any day.

So, I know Western games tend to be more popular in the West now but, are they actually more popular in Japan? Maybe they're not falling behind, there's just a bigger divide in what sells where.

McPoogle

@Benstein:
Actually, I agree that we've had games on PC for over a decade that people are starting to notice now that they're on consoles.

But you simply don't see the indie titles in Japan from here because it's hard enough to notice the indie games here traditionally. They're there in massive number. Big hits like Tsukihime, the Fate/Stay Night series, and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni series are basically indie games. They even have big-name spinoffs like Melty Blood, Fate/Tiger Colosseum Cavia/Capcom) and Higurashi Daybreak.

If you Google any of them you'll see that they're EASILY on the same scale as a Peggle or Audiosurf, at least culturally. Despite being indie games you can go to some places that will be absolutely festooned with posters and merchandise for these series.

If anything I'd imagine it's traditionally been easier to get started over there since there hasn't exactly been the same graphics war that happened in the PC market here. Games like Cave Story are like the antithesis of Crysis, and should be very easy to develop graphically character and level-wise. Even a visual-heavy game like Every Extend is pretty sparse on detailed realistic graphics and will run on a huge range of PCs.

fuchikoma

I think Japanese developers are as good as they have ever been. Their market is holding them back. Seems like a huge part of the japanese video game consuming public has regressed into the glory of the past. Simple games set upon established IPs from familiar developers is where they find it.

bdcrews

The western market is becoming better simply due to long time PC game makers going to the console or at least multi-platform. I have been playing FPSs and Mass Effect style RPGs for over 10 years on the PC, but now that they are coming to consoles the western market is "catching on".

Also in the west, a small studio can start out by making PC games at a lower cost. Once these games catch on they can go big budget. This is what companies like Bioware and Epic did. Japan is more corporate and doesn't really have a "minor league" system like this.

Benstein

From what i'm told the fundamental difference between the east and the west is that in the west competing businesses go get drunk together and share technology and wisdom; It's a community, whereas in Japan it's still blood competition.

It's almost disheartening to hear personal heroes like Suda51 say he considers the west the big leagues and he wants to come here and be successful, because i know if he did come over to the west he'd never get to make games like Killer 7 or No more heroes, there's just no way.

Case in point, the Naruto series has spawned a shitload of garbage games, so Ubisoft montreal sets out to make a great one. How do they do this? By cutting and pasting from ideas that work to make a safe framework, sprinkled with original ideas that don't leave a large footprint.

In the west, you take what's been and you build on it.
In the east, you take what's been, you strip it down, and then build on its fundamentals.

As far as ideologies go, i'm more partial to the east. The west is terrified of failure, and it results in things like MS setting up a laboratory for clinical user focus testing, rules for what buttons in games can do what (good luck making a 360 racer where the triggers don't default to throttle and brake), and XBLA developers being subjected to the same demands retail game developers have to go through.

I'm hoping we'll see a merger of these ideologies. I hope we'll see increased Japanese attendance at GDC, i'm hoping we'll see an asian GDC equivalent, and i hope increased "farming out" of Japanese publishers to western studios will take some of that western goodwill with it back.

Sunjammer

I got to admit I always get pretty confused when I see stuff like this. With the exception of Bioshock I can't think of any western title that even comes close to most of the japanese titles I play.

rainking187

So, its going to be another Toyota?

GM vs Toyota!! Go GM go GM! Go...oh...

Toyota! Toyota!

As long as Japan keeps making those robots, mecha powesuits and funky maximum risky otaku aimed advertisment rigs you'll always be ICHIBAN in my eyes. :)

Onizuka-GTO

I never thought Japanese dev was on the way out. It'll still be relevant, just not the mecca of creativity that it used to be. Gaming has become more of a global thing and I think we'll continue to see talented dev studios come for more and more countries and regions throughout the world and gaming grows.

But I DO think that Japanese consumer gaming is going to stay a distant 3rd place in the global market. Japanese devs will respond by continuing to appeal to a more global market.

DARTH_TIGRIS

@UmeShoryu: Well said. I'm bored of 99% of Japanese games too, but they still reign supreme at the fighter and always have.

@Do Kesubei: I don't like FPSes a whole lot, but I don't like many Japanese games.

I find it strange and ironic that someone at Capcom said this. I was talking to a friend the other day who worships Japan and their culture, and I'm generally unpopular in gaming circles around here because I don't like Japanese games. My comment was akin to something like "I probably won't care if it doesn't say Capcom on the box." I can't believe people are saying the innovation is coming from Japan, when they have games that are up to double digit sequels released on a monthly basis, and most of them with little more than another gimmick or two.

Karlott

@WolvenOne: Yeah, cos that's exactly what we need... MORE developers creating mediocre FPSs and RTSs.

God, it's a good thing that Japanese and Western games are inherently different, gives us more variety... so we're not stuck with ONLY FPS and RTS like Microsoft would want (for some reason).

RemyDuvalle

Japan definitely isn't going anywhere, but it would be a good idea for them to study some western game franchises. Amongst other things I would suggest that they take a look at.....

The Orange Box
Starcraft
The Sims
Dead Rising
Halo

Actually I think the most important of these two would be The Orange Box and The Sims. The Orange Box gives a good cross section of different kinds of first-person-shooter game play, ranging from puzzle, action, to multi player. The Sims on the other hand is pretty much the classic sandbox game, and the entire sandbox concept by in large hasn't caught on in Japan, so it's a good game to study to get the concept down.

I left MMORPG's off the list because they've already experienced some success in Japan.

WolvenOne

Considering that the most popular game franchises, and the consoles themselves, are developed in Japan, I'm not sure how anyone could really say that Japan is on the way out. I like "Western" games a whole lot but, really, not everyone likes FPSes.

Do Kesubei

Get ready for the 3rd world war... Through video game companies.

Wellhereweare

Japan is only "out" in the first place if all you play is shooters. I play Japanese games that stand on their own as an example of their play mechanic like Patapon, PQ, Brain Age, Ouendan, or Dokodemo Issho.

When you have a shooter with a good story, or a shooter with likable characters, a shooter with good physics, or a shooter with naturally flowing combat scenes and a realistic perspective, that's nice, but I don't consider it innovative at all.

fuchikoma

I don't see where all this Japanese praise comes from. Western devs try hard and innovate more if not more than their Japanese counterparts. Western devs always have a tendency of listening to their customers more so than Japanese devs in my experiance. So I'm glad that they (Western devs) are prospering in these times. I don't think Japan is dead, but they are going to have to step into the 21st centurty, as far as gameplay, art style, and/or technical proficiency if they want to get back into a position of dominance.

HurricaneDave

I don't know what it says about gameplay style or preference, but I can't remember the last japanese developed game I bought. Honestly, I can't. Dead Rising maybe? The only ones I can say I'm really looking forward to are Ninja Gaiden 2, Soul Calibur 4 and Street Fighter 4. So yeah, I guess I love me some japanese developed fighting games but everything else not so much anymore.

Gray665

I have played a few games with assian engines, and I think repeat some errors.

1): GL_TEXTURE_NEAREST is 1996-ish. Do yourself a favor, and use trilinear filtering, for gods sake.

2): Particles are to add to realism, not to substract from it.

3): If you get your models accurate to your artwork, you must make your animation as good. If you place a detailed "generic manga" character, where only legs animate (no hair, minor details, etc...). Maybe make models less accurate, but better animation. Is a trade off.

4): Text, get a good font. For tiny text, a readable san-serif one. For big text is ok a serif font. Test text with different resolutions.

5): Not everything as to look pink and dance. Theres even Rape sumulators with a "Happy" theme. For gods sake.

I could add more, If needed.

tei

@Rumblfish: And America is a huge market while Japan, relatively, is not. So if it only sells in America, that's not a bad thing.

Japanese games are largely becoming their own niche with the exception of Nintendo (who are a niche in and of themselves). Their style and way of story-telling isn't familiar, a lot of gameplay devices (software-wise) from Japan are becoming dated like lives, score-tracking and level progression.

In America they were invaluable to start the video game market here, but now that it's a maturing market and America is more heavily invested in their own IPs Japan is being seen as foreign as it really is. Especially given the technology as of late and how versatile it can become in game play and visuals. America now largely prefers Americanized games, even Japan realizes this when you have studios like Capcom and Sega investing more in American studios. Even if Condemned 2 won't sell jack in Japan selling at least jack in America is better (although of course that game will probably do fairly well).

Absent Blue

Western games only sell in the west. While Japanese games sell everywhere. Japan has fallen off? I would have to disagree.

Rumblfish

Who are the great Western developers making must-play games other than Valve, Rockstar and Blizzard?

I mean, that's nothing to snease at. But Nintendo, Capcom and Sq-Enix are probably just as important to the industry as those three.

Still, I'm obviously glad to see everyone making cool games. The more the better.

DrFresh

I certainly hope this isn't the case. The western gaming scene is too manly for me.

The greater majority of my gaming collection is still made up of Japanese-style rpg's and Mario games. I guess the main reason for this is the lack of western titles in the genres I like (too many FPS's), and the the westerns tendency for "realism", both in gameplay mechanic's and in visual style (graphics). I like my games with a more creative and imaginative flare, I guess. I generally don't care if a sword swings like a real sword. I'd rather the motions feel fluid and effortless. Western games try way too hard to be real to me, often to the point where the controls and motions feel clunky and robotic, the environments feel dull and lifeless, and the characters end up being butt-ugly!

I do think Japanese games are lagging in the innovation department though. The Japanese developers were innovative... like 20 years ago. I came into gaming curious and excited to what the future would hold for my favourite genres, and sadly, the Japanese haven't really done anything new or interesting with them since. Despite the great hardware out there and all the technological advances over the years, RPG's still look and play basically the same as they always have (although to my amazement many of them actually seem smaller and more confined/limited then their old-school counterparts!), which is a shame considering the world of possibilities the newer technology provides.

Hollette

All I really need to say is Duel Love.
Whether thats a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not sure. However, Japan is FAR ahead when it comes to touching men games.

Channing

While I do agree that on the technical side most of the latest Japanese games haven't been amazingly impressive, I still think that in terms of game-design and innovation the Japanese developers still have an edge over the Western ones. The Wii's success is there proving that their creative vein is still strong. Although it is true that most of japanese developers (with the exception of Capcom, I'd say) seem be a bit slow at adapting to new technologies and consoles like the 360 and the PS3 (there haven't been a lot of next-gen Japanese games, outside Capcom ones, that are as visually impressive as Western ones so far). Hopefully they are already catching up with it (there's a good number of Japanese titles getting released this year that seem to be rather promising).

ZeAvIs

I pulled out the SNES this weekend with my full supply of games. Back then 50% of my games were developed in Japan. These days I don't own a single game for my Xbox 360 that wasn't made on this side of the pond, although I do rent plenty.

There are certain conceits of Japanese games that feel gimmicky at times to me, and while many are interestingly irreverent, I feel many western games are more solid and less abstract in their art/gameplay/design choices.

However, having played PC games from 1990 on, it may just be that the standard western game feels closer to my original tastes so long ago.

crapsh00t

@SkyChicken: Please....tell me that is a joke. I might have to pray for your soul.

As for West vs. East, I still think Japan is ahead, but man oh man has the west picked up speed lately! I really wish they would just start learning from each other.

For instance, lets take a Final Fantasy (any one....just pick your favorite, so that you don't have to feel like blasting someone else for their favorite game, because that is pathetic and you should be pleased that you both love the same genre) and Mass Effect.

Mass Effect has this great way of telling the story, great character growth, and the best non-linear'ness I've seen in an RPG. What does it lack that a Final Fantasy typically has? [OPINION] A great battle system, an intuitive menu/inventory system, music that could stand on its own, characters that not only act interesting, but look interesting (never been a fan of western concept art. Its always so forgettable for me), story scenes delivered with intensity and dramatic flair, over the top special abilities that force you to say "badass" [/OPINION]

Afore Notation

@RobTheBuilder: For sure, I agree we've never had it better. But...I'm just thinking Western game developers really have taken off due to massive online support...whereas Japanese games aren't really at that stage. Will things appear not so grim once Japanese developers come to the online party with the same strength?

What makes the Japanese gaming industry appear to be dying, or at least in a classic Japanese recession?

pylon_trooper

@pylon_trooper: Hentai games are the Japanese equivalent of Big Buck Hunter in the west.

I think gaming is just as inventive as ever. There are certainly more options out there than 2/5/10 years ago.

RobTheBuilder

@Witzbold: if anything, i think that they have farmed their franchises out as a learning exercise. Think about it: they want to learn from the West and what better way then to see how they would do things. They own the IP and can see all of the work and behind the scenes. It puts them in a great position while still making a profit.

It will take time since development cycles are now 3 years long but I think the second half of this console generation will be interesting.

jp182

Aren't things just as stagnant in the West, though? I mean, we're really not seeing much innovation bar the odd few titles on both sides of the world, and in most genres, too.

I guess the Japanese will always been kings and queens of hentai gaming, though. I can't really see some heavy Texas development team pumping out an upskirt photography simulator.

Looking forward to the new wave, though, wherever it comes from.

pylon_trooper

One problem is that Japanese business practices (along with much of Asia) are very much 'please the boss'.

But Japanese games are just too good to vanish, but the West are learning quickly.

RobTheBuilder

@Kazzahdrane:

That sounds like the first good final fantasy

SkyChicken

@BenignMuffin: Oh dear, I love 'innovation' it seems to be the current buzz word.

I totally disagree, the reason Japan's games market is falling behind is because there's so much repetitiveness.
The only reason Japan seems so 'innovative' is because those gems that make it out of Japan and acquire cult status are truly diamonds in the rough.
Even if there are a few studios pushing the limits it doesn't change the fact that the majority are lagging behind.

Klopfer123

So this means we'll get a floodload of Japanese (WWII) FPS games? Please no! It's bad enough that western developers seem to be incapable of anything else these days.

TrekVogel

Yup.. Metal Gear Solid 4, Gran Turismo 5.. et cetera.. I really hope they're going to make such great games in the future too

MacScribble

I do agree that Japan has been pretty slow this gen, but they HAVE released some great games, too. Not to mention that one of the most anticipated titles this year: Metal Gear Solid 4, is being crafted by a Japanese studio.

Vicious-chan

I just don't get on with western games whatsoever. Throughout my gaming life, of around 26 years, I have played a variety of games but it is only in the last 10 years or so that I have tended to prefer playing japanese games over western games.

The reason is that usually that a japanese game is trying something new out which excites me (for example Exit and LocoRoco) or that its narrative is interesting (any final fantasy game) or just that the game would never be released in my country (doki doki, ouendan taiko no tatsujin).

johnnywashngo

A lot of Japanese games I've played lately have been subpar design-wise, but just pulled through to 'worth playing' on the back of story (folklore) or one exceptional feature (dmc4's combat). I think Japanese developer's need to get their head around this whole non-linear gameplay thing and fix up the camera angles in their action games.

Also, another problem is that I think a lot of Japanese games have this kind of utter refusal to meet the player half way. Like there's one way to play the game and if you don't want to play it like that then boohoo, go home. Like in folklore, there's only one way to kill a boss, and in DMC4 it's just outright impossible for the most part to play the game defensively.

Not to say all japanese video games are falling behind. Super Mario Galaxy was nearly god-damned flawless when all is said and done.

GregoriusH

I think Japan is about as innovative as everywhere else- you get some studios that experiment and explore new concepts, places like Nintendo that aren't afraid to innovate but keep what works, and a lot of others who mostly rehash the same damn stuff and it sells anyway.

And then there's those creepy DS games.

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

I would never disagree with the English voice of Phoenix Wright. :-D

CyricZ

For the first time in my life, I own more (and enjoy more) Western-made games than Japanese games. Western developers have made huge strides and have come up with some truly amazing titles. I would like to see Japanese developers (other than Nintendo) step it up again and produce a greater number of truly awesome titles to balance things out.

Captain Impulse

@Witzbold: Well there's at least one genre Japan still does better than the West, and that's fighting games. Capcom may be letting Backbone Entertainment work on HD Remix (and doing an awesome job of it I might add) but I'm glad Capcom Japan is the developer for SFIV.

UmeShoryu

Of course he has to say that, imagine what a Japanese boss would do if he spoke out about the declining quality of Japanese games. I can't evern remember the last truly Japanese game I enjoyed.

midwynter

I don't care what anybody says; I ALWAYS see a difference between Japanese/American games. And to tell you the truth I like how Japan does it better.

Vidril

As far as innovation is concerned, Japan is queen. It's like most Western developers have a firm idea of what's "cool" and mostly try and aim at that. It's only in Japanese software where you see true innovation.

BenignMuffin

Final Fantasy XIV will be a space-marine FPS with a gun that lets you pick up objects.

There might be portals, too.

Kazzahdrane

Id like to hope that hes right, but so far the signs are pointing to no.

Even more so when more Japanese companies like Capcom and Konami are whorring out their more popular franchises to western developers instead of doing it in house with the original teams.

:x

Witzbold