@The_nub_next_door: As a gamer I agree that it doesn't seem right that someone with more money should be able to be able to buy an in-game advantage. As someone that's worked on an MMO I see the issue a little differently. Unfortunately at the end of the day it's all about getting the most customers that you can and keeping the cash cow mooing. If this random guy made a few million off people that don't want to grind there's obviously a decent chunk of people who aren't interested in experiencing that part of the game and are willing to break EULA to do it. If Blizzard offered them a way to buy out of it not only would all these issues about botted players decrease some but they could be pocketing that dough and giving the customers more options. Would some people be righteously upset about it and leave? Sure they would, but the losses from those people leaving wouldn't compare to the gains, at least on the company side.

Horseflesh

DAoC had a system where if you had a character at max level already, you could make a new character at level 20 or 30. Blizzard should consider doing something like that. Otherwise, people are going to cheat to get to level 70. Most people don't do it on their first character.

skullpanda

@EvilSnowMan:

It doesn't take a full year to hit 70 with the time you put. Also, a casual person won't care to reach 70 really quickly, as then they won't have anything to do.

Kaljin

@Horseflesh: I sort of agree with you. But blizz have apparantly come to the conclusion that a leveling service would annoy more people than it would please. I mean they wouldn't think twice about creating a leveling service if they could turn a profit, OBVIOUSLY they can't. So most people wouldn't be Ok with a leveling service.

Personally i think its stupid that people can pay for an advantage in an online game, that is all.

The_nub_next_door

@EvilSnowMan: That's why they should charge for it.

Horseflesh

Damn.. WoW is already ghetto easy to level in, a botting program takes it too far i say. If you don't want to actually play the game, go play something else.

weasl

@QualityJeverage: That is the opposite of what blizzard wants. They want people to pay for the months and months it takes the average couple hours a week player to get to 70. If your a casual gamer who gets a few hours in on the weekend, getting to 70 could take you a full year. That is a full year blizzard has your subscription.

EvilSnowMan

I like grinding. So what.

Vidunder

@kidnicky: Agreed. There's some pretty glaring and fundamental design problems if a segment of the game's target audience resorts to paying a bot to level up in said game. It sounds like there are 2 groups of WoW players out there--those who enjoy the journey, and those who just want to get to the destination. Blizzard, why not offer options for both groups?

goodstuffmaynard

even though it's cheating, i don't think it's breaking any law unless if it is infact using a code that's not open source and is a copy of a code written from Blizzard.

djricekcn

@HawaiianActor: Agreed. The endgame content in WoW is fantastic but the amount of work required to reach it is unrealistic for most players. Blizzard should find some way to make the really fun parts of the game more accessible to players who might not be able to devote hours and hours to their characters.

QualityJeverage

People get different things out of MMOs and there's obviously, somehow, out of ten million people a tiny few who are only interested in playing the endgame. Ultima offered a service to pay for a pre-buffed character back in the day, and for all I know they still are. I'm surprised WoW doesn't do the same thing. A bunch of "purists" complained about the service but then some of those very same people wound up paying for the service.

Horseflesh

i would side with the "ayenay" portion, Blizzard should have a leveling service of their own, but maybe have it play on a different server or something, sort of a "free play" world that doesn't affect players who want to play the game it was meant to be played. i don't personally play WoW, so my opinion may not matter so much, but if players want to rob themselves of the game experience (or just goof off with a new character) that's cool and all, who am i to tell them how to or how not to enjoy the games that they pay for, but it doesn't seem fair to let them play WITH the guys and gals who actually put time and effort into creating their character.

HawaiianActor

Blizzard should win. They have done so many things to lessen the grind to 70, such as taking about 30% less exp to make it there, and having quests and mobs give better exp, and have more quests.

The bots aren't just for leveling either. They also auto mine and herb and skin, and take those resources for characters that don't need the money (alts) and leave people who do need it broke (new players). It also ruins the game when people ARE IN YOUR DUNGEON WHO CANT TANK!

However, I would not mind this bot being around (and if blizzard still banned bot)...if it was free. This person is making a living off of laziness, although a genius move, is sort of taking advantage of the game.

Kaljin

@uranutan:
hes making money of the code he wrote himself. Otherwise why would people pay extra for something they already bought from blizzard?

btw, 'cheating' in videogames isnt illegal.

Spiral

It should be noted that this is a rather important case as I believe it's the first time that a EULA has been used as a basis for a trial.

Dioxen

@ostartero: How exactly is an exerienced ruined for everyone else by having the game played automatically?

uranutan

@kidnicky: So paying people to cheat for you means the game is broken? Generally it just is due to everyone's desire to be the best...and everyone simply *can't* be the best. Just because not 100% of the gameplay mechanics are liked by 100% of the player base doesn't mean the game is broken. If the majority of players were doing this, it might be cause for a company to look at their gameplay. A small subset of players desiring to cheat, however, doesn't say that anything is broken.

verrius

If Glider weren't making money Blizzard wouldn't care, but they're eating into their profits by making it not take months to get to whatever level. But that doesn't change that they're offering a service that people obviously want, which shows a problem with the game.

t0yrobo

First of all if the game sucks, why are you playing it?

You can't just ruin the experience for everyone else just because you don't like to do some things in the game.

ostartero

Botting is cheating. That is all there is to it.

If you cannot find a way to have fun while grinding up to 70, you really shouldn't be playing WoW, or any other similar MMO for that matter.

WGSXFrank

Aye! If you don't like grinding don't do it. No excuses!

The_nub_next_door

I agree that the bots are unfair. Automating the play of WoW is taking the whole point away. Plus it can ruin the experience of other players. How annoying do you find it when you're trying to kill mobs for a quest when there's some guy running around killing them before you? Very. Blizzard encourage you not to ruin the experience of other players, and if Glider wins then there's just no justice. Sure Blizzard is a megacorporation who makes millions and millions on a monthly basis, but this is an issue that effects all WoW players.

Mustakrakish

I have mixed feelings about this. I played wow since release (nov 04?) until about 5 months ago, when life became more busier. A person playing for the first time should absolutely not use this program. I had 3 lv70's and 2 60's by the time I quit, had a few 2200+ arena teams, and had killed illidan. I didn't want to do the 1-70 grind yet again, as the repetitiveness and time-sink it involved eventually led me to stop playing altogether. It's boring, but neccessary for new people to understand how things work. But once you've done it 4-5 times...do you really think you learn/earn anything new by doing the entire thing again from the start? I can tell you from experience, no, you don't.

Sovnade

I would support Glider in this case if their program was free. But making money off of another company's game is a no-no in my book.

uranutan

I'm siding with Blizzard.

Amazon_Chris

Game Developer Protip:
If people are paying someone so they don't have to play it themselves,it's poorly made.

kidnicky

@mjemirzian: Thank you for formulating something i clearly couldn't!

The_nub_next_door

@uranutan: My thoughts exactly. Less for me to type! :3

eskimo-bob

If Blizzard offered the choice themselves maybe offering increased levels but little loot or such in return for fast leveling, but offering those who level naturally (naturally...does that word even apply here?!) stronger stats and better armour....seems that'd help maybe

excel_excel

The moral underlying issue here is the fact that MMOs (and most microtransactions) are greedy. They are an attempt to wring out more money from the player with the same amount of development time. The hook that makes MMOs work is that humans are prone to addictive behavior that makes 15$ a month endless grinding an insanely profitable endeavor for Blizzard. A program like Glider isn't called offensive by players because they like grinding, but because the MMO architecture requires that everyone put in the same amount of time in the game to achieve the same amount of rewards, otherwise the system quickly becomes meaningless and less profitable as people cancel their accounts.

mjemirzian

Grinding is what it sounds like hard and repetitive i don't understand how people like that stuff...but to pay for it is just insane to. so both shall lose! lol

Raziel3333

@Horseflesh: But they haven't infact implemented such a service. Tbh i don't really have any knowledge on the subject at all... But that would to me suggest that the money lost from players getting upset and leaving would be greater than the money gained from the service. Or atleast thats how Blizzard sees it.

The_nub_next_door

@TheGreySpectre: WAIT, I see what you're getting at, but a big part of leveling is learning how to play your character... So, unfortunately that wouldn't work..

Katorok

@EvilSnowMan: that is so much conspiracy paranoia. the level grind isn't there to make you pay for your subscription, the level grind is there to parse out the players and content.

StratfordX

Leveling content was fun twice. Then it gets old and repative. I think blizz should let you make characters equal to your highest level character on a specific side. That way you have to do the 1-70 grind at least once (or tiwce if you want a horde and alliance character) but after that people have the option to not do the grinding content

TheGreySpectre

Here's to hopes that the judge just flat out dismisses the case.

Papa Midnight

@goodstuffmaynard: You can't please everyone. Every single game whether it be online or not has a vocal segment of complainers. The problem with MMOs is that some players are too stubborn to quit a game that they don't like playing.

If they have no objections to using WoW Glider, they might as well save their money and play in an illegal private server with an acclerated EXP rate.

Velops

@EvilSnowMan: Those are the terms, if you don't like them don't play.

@weasl: Indeed they've simplified the content from 20 to 60 (i think) significantly.

The_nub_next_door

If he wasn't making money with it I wouldn't have an issue, but making profit off someone elses work seems kinda iffy to me. Part of the satisfaction of a game like WoW is earning the EXP, doing the quest, and making it to level 70, using a bot takes away that feeling of accomplishment.

BassForever

Blizzard will win hands down. The law is entirely on their side.

TheSmiterer

My first opinion is that if you play WoW ( a lot that is) then youre using it to fulfill a social lacking that you might have, because WoW does not make a good game; just a fun social experience. And I love WoW, really do, literally cancelled my account 5 times now. Good art, story, good action for an MMO, but the thing is, the grind is boring (and the end game is not when the game begins, for all those whove convinced themselves it is).
No ones ever called the grind FUN, because everyone knows its NOT. But it is arguably necessary to give any sense of accomplishment once you HAVE finished grinding. Of course, that doesnt justify the horror of a days grind at all, its just the reasoning. In my opinion, as long as this bots not affecting other players then really its none of the average players fucking business, because when I buy a game, I consider it my inalienable fucking RIGHT to wring every last square inch of fun and tears out of it, and grinding does not equal fun.
To those who might say "Well I have to work for it and its not fair that he doesnt have to", well, really, the option to "Cheat" if you will (or use Glider in this case), is open to all, and cheating disregarded, there are a million different play styles already that qualify as nigh cheating. Have two accounts and you follow yourself with a healer? Cheating (they did not intend for you to do that). Been power leveled? Cheating (MMO devs state constantly that they dont want people to do that). Really if you play the game in any other way than the one the dev intended then youre kind of cheating.
And I DONT think Blizzard should create some kind of leveling service. If you start giving or apparently in this case ASKING for the option to be charged to reduce grinding then its not likely gonna stop there. It could, but we all know what happens to logic and souls when held too long over money; it evaporates. Look at Apple. Excellent polish on a moderately good product and they have fucking gone APE SHIT on over charging people (look at the prices for "Mac" memory vs PC memory, both of which are interchangeable and exactly the same). I love Blizzard, and am unfortunately forced to respect some aspects of Apple, but if Blizzard becomes them (Apple) I will officially give up on video games rather than teeter on the edge of "video games suck these days" and "video games suck these days but its my fault because Im not out there making better ones myself."
I ranted off a bit on that paragraph so lets get back on track. In fact, lets stop diverting our eyes from the real problem here. We're all looking to the left at glaring at Glider for whatever its done to kick your personal puppy, when in reality, we wouldnt even have to have this stupid fucking argument if Blizzard, oh, I dunno, ceased to rest on the same laurels every other dev is these days and made the parts of their games that suck fun INSTEAD OF the aforementioned sucking. And in a way Blizzard already has facilities to kill the grinding boredom; theyre called quests, and having played a few other MMO's myself, theyre arguably the most involving and interesting quests in any game of its type. So instead of the extreme "remodel 60% of the game", they have the option of instead elaborating and adding onto functions that already exist.
This is way too long, but I would like to close with this; Blizzard, I love you. But the deficiencies in WoW I almost take as a personal insult. You know better than this, and I KNOW YOU KNOW that I KNOW you know better than this. Youre a legend in the industry for a good reason, but WoW is doing things to you that are nigh equivalent to figurative creative rape. But Burning Crusades was a HUGE improvement (though not the solution, obviously), so just keep that up please. And dont forget, and Im not saying that you have, but please dont forget that video games are an art, so theyre about the game play and that ART, not about making a couple extra bucks tacking on a forced, artificial, game-life extender like grinding. Theeee End.

Allfather Black

It's so extremely easy to level in WoW as it is, if you need a bot program to do it for you....your pretty sad.

I hope Blizzard wins this case! Nothing worse then trying to enjoy the game when you get grouped with idiots that don't know how to play WHICH is part of leveing.

If you've already leveled a few 70's and "don't want to do teh grind again" then guess what? too bad, suck it up. If you already have 70's you should already know the easiest/quickest way to level.

If botting became legal the game would become worse and worse, why even bother playing the game in teh first place if your not going to play? God knows BG's are horrible as it is with all the honor botters....wouldn't even want to imagine if the whole game was filled with them.

3elevenX

So this seems pretty simple. Which will hold up in court:
Your game is boring!

or

You stole our code and broke a license agreement.

hmmm...

ParadoxControl

Just wanna take a moment and point out that if care bear wussies would not get all uppity about free world pvp. Then this problem would not be around..

A botter killing your spawns? Kill him... Problem Solves. Free world pvp on all mmo's and poof insta fix.

As for the issue at hand, i say so what. Who really cares about botters in mmo's besides morons who pay $15 a month to have a second job.

nytestalker

@uranutan: What made games so holy you can't sell 3rd party stuff for them? Cars have tires, Windows has applications, consoles have games, large part of the world spins around by extending others products.

ara

@BassForever: He isn't making any more money off someone elses work than anyone who makes aftermarket cruise controls for cars is making money from car manufacturers work. Anyone who uses the Glider is certainly breaking the EULA and Blizzard can ban them all they want, but coding the Glider should not be illegal. Fortunately EULA's are not legally binding where I live, it would be fucked up to live in a world where companies can make up laws whenever they feel like it.

ara

My view on this issue is that casual players don't deserve the same things hardcore players earn.
This is because they play casually, and by that very fact, don't NEED most of the things that hardcore players take the time to earn.
By this logic, I say that if a player doesn't want to level another toon to 70, no matter their reason ("I've already leveled 4, and I don't want to do it again.") then they shouldn't have a 70 toon.

You reap what you sow. If you can't work for it, whether it's the first time or the 8th, you shouldn't have it.

blueshoals

@ParadoxControl:
They didnt steal anything actually, Glider just reads memory to figure out whats going on in game and issues keystrokes to perform the desired task.

Probably broke the EULA, in testing Glider. Not sure of the consequences of breaking the EULA, but Glider in itself is not illegal.

pb00

I am against all form of botting and even two-boxing.

However, I got to give it up to this guy for find a niche in the behemoth WoW, and was able to profit from it. You can't blame this guy, blame the consumers who pressed "checkout" button.

Only thing burning down Glider?, probably something to do with using Blizzard's coding without authorization or probably even a copyright suit here or somewhere.

Fyren

The most satisfying part of an MMO is when you quit.
Forever.

Mavwick

@ParadoxControl: Wow, that it exactly what I was thinking.

Anyways, the leveling up is part of MMO's. Take away the grind, and it's just not an MMO anymore. The whole appeal of MMO's (for me, at least) is seeing my character start as a miserable peon who cant kill rats, to a master of his art.

Besides, imo, if I'm paying monthly for access to the game, I damn sure am gonna play it myself!

Coquiton

this guy is completely fucked... =)

lasttimeyouaskedme

Leveling up IS the fun part of the game... At the level cap, it gets boring very quickly unless you're a sucker for PVP.

Nirual

@ara:

Well... car tires kinda need replacing, or you wouldn't be able to drive your car. Windows is a system designed to allow the running and processing of programs, so it's essential that there be programs for it to run. Consoles, again, are designed to run things that other people will make. So it's understandable that these things will have 3rd party stuff.

WoW is a game you play with other people, and like any other form of game that involves other people, using something outside of what's in the game to get an edge over someone else/make the game easier for you is going to be seen as cheating.

StormTec

@Dioxen: It's not. There have been numerous cases involving EULAs, browser wrap agreements, click wrap agreements, and terms of use.

@djricekcn: If the EULA says that 3rd party software is not allowed, then anyone who is subject to the EULA who uses/produces 3rd party software are in breach of contract.

@ara: Where do you live? EULAs are contracts and are generally binding (barring backstoppers like unconscionability) in every common law jurisdiction (US & other, though I can't claim to know civil law.) that I know of.

An action doesn't have to break a criminal law (be illegal) for there to be legal consequences for that action. May actions that lead to civil cases (especially contract and property related cases) are perfectly legal, but will have consequences because of contractual or statutory obligations.

scoli83

@uranutan: Are you serious? Our did you forget to think before you posted?

One word. Economy.

ostartero

WoW has the best levelling game of any MMO, they've put a lot of work into it. These botting programs are mostly used by people who want a rack of max-level characters but don't want to put the work into it.

This isn't EQ or L2 or any game like that. Blizzard did the work, now they expect their players to. There is no excuse for botting and it has ruined a lot of player's experiences.

I'm looking forward to Glider's crushing defeat.

FoghornDeadhorn

@ara: Except...its a completely different issue. With cars, there is no agreement that people who buy the car that they will drive it a certain way, or only outfit it in a certain way. For a social game, much of the value comes from the guarantee that people at a certain level have a shared experience; that entire shared experience is destroyed in an MMO if a player skips the "grinding" content to get to the "good" part. In effect, people using bots are trying to completely break the game that everyone else is playing; they want to play a completely different one.

verrius

what i don't understand is; you buy a game, you pay a monthly fee for the game, and then you pay someone else to play the game for you ?!?!?!?!? am i missing something?

diodegrey

I could see some kind of speed-leveler for a game like Guild Wars, where the entire friggin game is designed around maximum-level characters, so until you reach your max level, you're essentially running around with a steadily decreasing handicap.

But for a game like WoW, unless you're all about PvPing and the endgame dungeons and things, it's the journey (aka the grinding/questing/exploring) that's the real meat of the game. Yes, it can get tedious at times, but that's because it isn't as intense as Diablo. :P WoW follows the same principle as Diablo, but with a more open-ended game world and a few flaws in the design. I've made several dozen different Diablo characters, over the span of nearly a decade, and am only now getting tired of leveling my people up. For adventure RPGs like this, grinding can be considered the main attraction. If you don't like grinding, why are you even playing them in the first place?

For awhile now I've seen people running around with this strange idea: that if they find a game that doesn't appeal to them, the makers should change it so that it does. What kind of nonsense is that? It's like saying that you want them to change how basketball is played because you'd like it better if they weren't throwing that damn ball around so much.

Sometimes, people come up with ideas that appeal to other people, but not to you. Get over it. Life goes on. You'll get your turn soon or later.

GhostWhoWalks

@diodegrey: Because WoW is poorly designed in that Grinding is such a tedious experience Chinese people are being dragged out of mines to play it for Americans with more cheese than sense.

dunnace

[www.rpgbugs.com] and [www.gamebugs.org] also great bot places I hear... ;-p

WillW

@dunnace: tedious, yes. it is the staple of MMORPGs. Keeps people doing it for years. you know you're living far too comfortable a life when you're paying people from 2nd and 3rd world countries to play your video games for you! lol

diodegrey

EULA is a rule, but not a law. Just because you sign a contract doesn't mean that contract is legal

djricekcn

seriously, if you need to pay someone to play the game you're paying for why play at all? If you have all those 70's PLAY THEM! If you don't want to "grind" there again then don't start another one. Blizzard should win this one easy.

Kotaku's Silent Assassin

Blizzard should win. The argument from Glider is pretty weak.

To the original response- if the game is so poorly designed, then people should close the wallet and stop playing. The answer is not to cheat or exploit through some botting program.

Anyway, hope the guy gets crushed for all 2.8 million.

Blinkman

@dunnace: Ummm, no. You are so wrong I can't even be bothered to tell you how.

Agies

"Oh cool, I just bought this game but I'm going to have someone else play it for me!" Sound like fun?

SaxxonPike

A Blizzard in Arizona? Unheard of...well, at least in Phoenix for a LONG time. Tucson, Flagstaff, Show Low, and the like still get snow.

That's why the name "Blizzard in the Desert" has kept popping up in my head if I ever wanted to start a forum.

RavingRabbid

and I mean "don't hesitate to ask me". When it takes ten seconds for your typed text to appear, it's really hard to proofread.

And Witz, what do you mean? Torn a new what?

man_in_gauze

oh, Glider is the program, not the guy. :S

man_in_gauze

All I can say is I hope the Glider creator gets torn a new one.

Witzbold

@goodstuffmaynard:
There's a problem with a game if someone wants to cheat to get to the end? I don't understand your logic. Should all games have a "Skip this shit and get to the final boss battle" option in their intro screens?

Look at SSBB. Some people want to go through Subspace Emissary and play that, while some people just want to play as Sonic from the start. The whole point of not making him available from the beginning is so that the player actually plays the rest of the game, and can feel as if they deserve unlocking so-and-so character when they do.

Diablo II could be another example. If you wanted to fight Baal in with an Assassin in the expansion, you'd have to go through the beginning of the game to do so. But if there was a "Skip all Acts and become a level 40 in Harrogath" button, who the hell would play the rest of the game? Plus, in a more nitpicky sense, how would the game know what items you'd find, what skills you'd choose, etc.? Don't forget about the storyline. The Diablo storyline would be ruined if you could skip the other Prime Evils and go straight to Baal, wouldn't it?

Sure, grinding is pointless/boring/redundant. So, go play Team Fortess or something. This guy is both cheating, and making others pay money to do the same. Both are inarguably against "the rules" and spit in the faces of those who work hours for a level 80/90 character only to be outstripped by someone who's willing to break the rules. There's always two sects of players; those who cheat to find out that Tassadar sacrifices himself to destroy the Overmind ten minutes after buying the game, and those who play through the entire game building up their skills and learning the storyline bit by bit, y'know, the way it was meant to be played?

There's two groups of movie watchers. Half want to see the movie adaptation of one of themost famous novels of all time, and the others just want to know whether Frodo finally destroys the Ring. Does this means that there should be a 3-hour-long version of Return of the King as well as a "The good guys win, the end, kthxbai" version? No, not really.

If you're playing a game of WarCraft 3, what stops you from hitting the "Jump to the top of the tech tree and have ten thousand of every resource" buttom? Because that'd be fucking unbalanced, especially in a multiplayer game. Paying a third party to upgrade your Town Hall into a Fortress just because you don't want to speand time training peasants is just wrong, period.

Now I just need a Lost Vikings and Blackthorne reference, and I'll have officially covered every Blizzard franchise. Anyway, I've writeen so much that my computer is lagging, and if you're still wondering whether Glider should even be allowed in the courtroom, please, go right ahead.

man_in_gauze

@man_in_gauze: He means asshole. Torn a new asshole.

JibbyJam

@man_in_gauze: Good points. Two other things to consider are:

1) WoW is a very-group centric game for the most part, particularly in the upper levels. Unless you're PVPing or doing Arena, you'll be in a group/raid, a lot.

2) WoW has a learning curve. While its fairly easy to master the basics of your class, to become extremely proficient in it to the point where you'd be useful in a raid you need that 1-69 experience.

Skipping to the end means you lack that experience, and you become a far less useful contributor to your party or raid.

Captain Impulse

A hardcore player can get to 70 in 4 days, if even that. A casual only needs a month or two. They have really streamlined the whole thing. Hell, one guildie put in one dedicated 8-hour marathon session on WoW with one of his alts. He started at L5, he hit 62 before he finished. Granted, fellow guildies were there so that when an instance needed running, it took no less than 2 minutes to get everyone there, but the point still stands. It's horrifically easy to level in WoW now. Those that bitch about it are either phenomenally lazy or have some grudge against WoW

And Glider -is- against Blizzard's EULA.

Lyrai

I'm on Blizzard's side. I'm sick of botters in PvP, taking up a spot in which a real player - one who participates, plays. I have seen a few farm bots as well, I just tap the mob a second before they do, and they kill it for me...For several hours >=].

TheDaftPunk

I'm all for Blizzard in this case.

ArgentAngel

If people are trying to bot in your game, there's something wrong with your game.

Quine

Unless Glider uses actual Blizzard code, and thus breaks copyright law, it is a perfectly legal program. As for breaking Blizzard's EULA, glider itself does not break the EULA, but the use of glider does. There is a difference. It is the end user that breaks the EULA, not the creator and distributor of the glider program. I think botting is a little bit stupid, and it seems many of you agree, however, it is not illegal, and we cannot define legality simply by our personal preferences.

As for a leveling service, I think Blizzard should provide a way for experienced players to create new high level character, and thus skip some of the more boring earlier parts of the grind system, but I don't think they should charge for it. I think that any player with a lv70 should have to option to create a new character at least at level 40 (maybe even at level60). Such a character should start with a standard set of white armor, and all of talent point unassigned. I think this would be totally fair, as the player already knows the ins and outs of wow and only has to learn the particulars of the new characters class (and only if that class is new to him).

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Blizzard will be doing this with the new Death Knight class in its next expansion. Once you reach lv80 and complete a certain quest you will be able to create a Death Knight that starts out at lv50. This idea should be expanded to all classes.

psycoking

This guy was single handedly responsable for destruction of just about every server's economy when Glider was popular.

Although it was used to "Automate" leveling, in reality just about every farmer and botter uses a variant of his program today. He of course profited from it immensely while legitimate gamer's still have to pay the price for his reckless actions.

I am usually the one to cheer for the underdog, but this guy is the most selfish and irresponsible type of gaming entrepreneur around and I serious hope he pays for it.

The amount of effort, money and time that Blizzard had to spend trying to circumvent his program's doings was time that they could have spent improving the game. There is no doubt about it.

I wish this was a criminal case and not civil, seriously.

Patient

Also,
@JibbyJam:
SWEET ROBOTIC MONKEY JESUS O_O

man_in_gauze

Oh, and this is without taking into account the effects of bots on other players. I'll have to relate it to RuneScape, which I despise with all of my shriveled obsidian heart, but AFAIK the mining systems are the same. You want runite, or warcraftite, or whatever it is (awesomeite, if Penny Arcade is to be believed), with an incredibly long respawn rate. You camp the area, waiting for your chance. After 30 minutes or so, it pops back into existence, only for some other player to run in and snatch it from you with almost "robotic" precision, if you know what I mean.

@Captain Impulse:
Thanks. I assume you have a bit more WoW or MMO experience than I do, as that point never occured to me, but you do have an excellent point. Especially the vernacular (Penny Arcade comes in mind again; wtf is "tanking Kara with a prot specced pally"?), which is essential to communication in a heated battle, but if the highest-leveled member of your group has only been actually playing for a few days, you might have a Leroy Jenkins situation on your hands, and no one wants that.

man_in_gauze

@Quine:
Ok, I cheat in poker, there must be something wrong with poker.

Kaljin

@man_in_gauze: Heh yeah, WoW speak sounds a lot like Klingon to the uninitiated. That's another aspect that people overlook; jumping to the end without knowing how to interact with others within the system can break an otherwise mundane encounter. It's second nature to people who put in the time, but put a power-leveled 70 Prot. Pally in Kara without the experience to know how to play his class, and you've got 9 other really pissed off people and a whole lot of dead bodies.

Captain Impulse

@MikeKelley: Just because he admits to breaking the rules makes him immune to the consequences?

Captain Impulse

From Glider website (www.mmoglider.com) FAQS:

Q: Is using Glider cause for suspension/ban?
A: Yes, Glider is against the Terms of Service as provided by Blizzard for World of Warcraft.

If the Glider creator states that his product is against the WoW Terms of Service, does he have any leg to stand on? is it even worth time in court to argue that the rules shouldn't apply to him when he knowingly breaks them?

Whether or not you like the terms of service, like botting, etc., it's hard to argue that he has a legal leg to stand on when he clearly states that he's breaking the rules established by Blizzard. Even worse, he's making a fortune doing it.

MikeKelley

@Koztah: The biggest irony is that when a developer releases an MMO that skips straight to the endgame, it gets universally panned.

An example of this would be...?

Captain Impulse

I never understood people who want things like these.

Here's what happens: With or without a botting application, they burn through as little content as they can and get to max level as quickly as they can.

Then, one month or two into the game, they bitch that there's no content without realizing that they skipped over most of it.

The biggest irony is that when a developer releases an MMO that skips straight to the endgame, it gets universally panned.

Koztah

Personally, if you use a botting program...it doesn't mean you'll become "better" at the game just like if you had a friend who played Halo 3 for you, you wouldn't be so great playing at a high rank. I'm on Blizz's side on this because having a botting program is considered cheating AND just because you didn't want to quest/grind from 1-70, doesn't mean you need to cheat to get there. IMO, go join a private server maybe where the xp is enormous AND it's also illegal? To the guy who said cheating is not illegal? Read the ToS of a game before you even say such thing. I've ran into botters in the game...and while I hate to see it happen, IT IS fun to kill their target before they get to it, then they get nothing. Blizz is going to win. WoW is not an open source game. If you NEED to bot/cheat for an MMORPG, play something else?

lorbs28

@scoli83: From Finland. I am in no way an expert and this is complicated matter, but I'll try... First things first, there are laws to protect consumer, EULA can't overrun those, so I am entitled to make a personal copy, etc. EULA has to be provided in Finnish to be legally binding here. Most EULA's state that they use laws of US or England, which are not valid in Finland. You just can't bind a person under laws of a foreign country with a product sold and bough in Finland. So it's not that EULA's are not really legally binding, they are just below law and most of them are presented in a way that they are invalid in here. Terms of Service on the other hand, that's the providers to freely define, and they are free to terminate the service if those rules are broken. There are some laws to protect the consumer there too though.

@StormTec: Cheating, yes, it certainly is cheating, and Blizzard has the responsibility to their players to ban cheaters to ensure everyone gets the gaming experience that they pay for and develop counter cheating measurements. But dragging cheaters to court seems bit far fetched, to me at least.

And yes, my examples were crappy. Let's see if I can come up with anything better. Mmh.... How about someone makes bunch of neat Lua scripts for WoW, those are within EULA, and sells then? Would that be OK? I was just trying to argue that selling 3rd party stuff for games should not differ from anything else, not saying that Glider would be acceptable.

ara

I'm with Blizzard all the way on this one. Half the fun of the game is *getting* to the top, the other half is *being* at the top.
And the fact that my inbox constantly gets spammed with bots and gold sellers.

Infradead

I understand Blizzard's point of view. But if they want to crush glider, they need to do it server side and punish the players. The program doesn't do anything illegal. If a USER uses it, he or she is breaking the EULA, and their contract can be severed (ban the player). Glider does nothing illegal though - using it may break the EULA, but that's a contract with the player. As a publisher for Glider, you are not acting as a User of WoW.

Punish the players, make the the penalty for cheating too stiff for anyone to even want to try. Eliminate (or at least significantly reduce) the market for Glider. Police your own system.

FigNewton

Hi guys. I have lots of hand grenades for sale. Using hand grenades is illegal though, just so you know, so buy them, just don't use them k?

Perfectly sound logic.

KMatt

On on hand I can understand why blizzard is pissed, but now having played WoW for several months at this point and being frustrated with the end game, I really have no sympathy for them anymore.

Everything in the game is meant to be a completely retarded time sink. Whether you're talking about PVP grinding or end game raiding, you're looking at months of time to achieve goals.

Congratulations, you just downed Lady Vashj. Oh sorry, now you're going to have to kill her for months to get 25 people (plus a few alternates in case people can't make it for raid night) in the T5 pieces they need in order to go on to Tempest Keep. Oh the only reason you can't run the whole place daily is because we have it on a Week long reset with no option to force reset.

(Months go by).

Congratulations you killed Kael for the first time, now you're going to have to spend retarded amounts of time downing him so you can go to Hyjal.

And so on..

I speak from a mostly PVE perspective because I only PVP for fun and for specific items from time to time. Taking on the big bad bosses that are central to WoW lore is exciting and it really is an achievement to down them. FARMING them is absolutely retarded. It just does not compute in my head. You're not guaranteed to get what the raid members need even for all that effort and preparation (flasks, other consumables, repair costs, etc).

Wait wait, I'm getting ahead of myself..all this happens after you hit 70.

From 1-70 is another trudge all together. You're going through Azeroth, which is mostly deserted on any typical server (compared to how many people you'll see milling about in places like Shattrath). Finding groups to do any instance above say...Zul Farrak is like pulling teeth. Why? Because everyone is dying to get to 70 so they can run the big time (or 58 at least to get to Outland and actually have people to run instances with). Anything to make that trudge faster in my eyes is worth it.

I've never botted though.

Phunk

@Phunk: It's called "Timesinks." MMORPGs of every make and model are loaded with them. If you don't like time sinks then don't play MMORPG's. Simple as that.

Foxstar Sixtail

Bot is playing!, you can play a game with a C compiler and some imagination. but takes lots of skill and time.

tei

Didn't nintendo try to sue game genie (the old gameshark cheating equivalent) and fail? I'm not sure what makes this case any different.

Tohoya

@kidnicky:

So I guess that means CoD4's level system is completely bad since people use hacks to get around it.

Pro tip: anything doing with multiplayer always has people trying to get an unfair edge or an easy way out.

Ask anyone who's played end-game WoW what was the most fun and they'll tell you it was the very first time they installed the game and leveled up.

@Tohoya:
Because it's multiplayer. You're not in a bubble. Your actions affect others' gameplay. The vast majority pay to play on a set of rules. It would be like playing in an amateur basketball league of some sort vs. sitting in front of your garage and practicing free throws. Spalding or the NBA or whoever can't get on your case if the hoop is only 5ft off the ground or you have a machine shoot hoops for you. Your league will certainly get on your case if you have a professional basketball player play for you.

cowondinosaur

@ara: What makes this so special is that Blizzard, the owners of the intellecutal property (which no one above 35 years old seems to respect) makes people agree to a set of RULES when they get WoW. You don't have to agree to the EULA and you can return the product for a refund if you do not agree to it upon initial purchase.

Instead of following the rules required to use the product, people broke the rules and don't want to give up their money. It's a joke.

As for people complaining about the grind- get to 70 and PvP, unless you're a keyboard turner and clicker. This is coming from someone who was in a pro sponsored PvP guild while also raiding in a top 50 U.S. PvE guild. PvE is a grind, but arena can be done in just hours a week and the action is always fun and dynamic.

Blinkman

@kidnicky: People are just lazy, leveling is fun, unless you have no friends. If you go straight to 70 you'll fail.

-AS

Archaic Stigma

@Blinkman: Umm, does the EULA state that you cannot make or sell any 3rd party stuff expanding the game? If it does, well, then you are onto something, if not, I just can't understand what are you saying. Somehow I doubt it since Blizzard didn't mention that in their suit, they just spouted on with some nonsense about copying code to active memory, server resource usage and other things they told some magician to pull of his hat.

As for the Blizzards IP's, Glider uses none. There is not a single picture or text or anything that Blizzard owns on the Glider website, as for the program I have no idea, but since the website is so clean, I would be surprised if the application itself were slapped full of WoW art or something.

"Instead of following the rules required to use the product, people broke the rules and don't want to give up their money. It's a joke."

I'm kind of a tired now, so excuse me if I'm not at my sharpest. Are you talking about the ones that break the EULA by using the Glider, or are you talking about the guy who made it? And what moneys should be given up to who? =_=

As someone might get confused, I'll stress this out, I don't support Glider. I can certainly understand how it causes trouble for those who play, as economies, gaming experiences, etc. will suffer from bots, but the suit is just ridiculous. Ban and develop counter measures, don't try to claim that copying applications to active memory is a crime. I guess Microsoft is their next target, since Windows copies their precious WoW code to active memory to be able to run it.

ara

leveling is fun tice, then you have done everything and its boring as all hell

TheGreySpectre

He didnt steal thier code though...he wrote his own code

TheGreySpectre

@Mustakrakish: Wait so this whole "Someone killing mobs before you" thing doesn't happen without bots? Woulda had me fooled, considering the fact you're not the only one to get a quest at any specific time.

Then again, maybe all these years I've been playing bizarro versions of all these MMORPGs where quests are dynamic and only one person may have them at a time...

Lemming To The Sea will bring home the turkey if you bring home the bacon

People need help leveling in WoW? Any casual player can Lv to 70 easily, just not in a few days. If the creator behind glider's excuse for the program is because "grinding is boring" then I cant see how they could even think to win. First, because that excuse is pitiful, and second, it is opinionated. Blizzards claims are more than likely fact (I dont know I have not read their terms).

R3load

you guys are missing the point: is it legal or illegal? this isn't Fair v. Unfair or Bots v. Boredom.

If the Glider author hasn't violated the EULA or federal, state, or local law, then he is not guilty. It is as simple as that.

This is not a discussion about fairness, leveling difficulty, or money; this is a discussion about whether or not the Glider author broke the law. Your decisions to support Blizzard/Glider should be based on that alone.

BTW, it doesn't look like he did. Blizzard's End User License Agreement doesn't apply to him if he didn't accept the agreement to begin with, and we all know there aren't ANY laws against what he's doing; not even the DMCA is applicable here.

Remember "bnetd"? no? well that was 7 years ago so a lot of you people won't remember it. Read up on the history of that, if you want to see how things (should not, but probably) will happen with Glider.

Naikrovek

@Blinkman: It WAS fun and dynamic, until they ruined Alterac Valley by removing, well, pretty much everything. Unless they've restored it to its former glory, PVP is still a very broken system. Although I wouldn't know what changes they've made recently, since I cancelled my account.

@Naikrovek: You are correct that the EULA doesn't apply to him because he didn't personally agree to it, even though he developed a program that allows others to break it. Saying he's guilty would be like saying a gun manufacturer can be charged for murder because one of their guns was used to commit a crime. However, it does depend on if any of the code for Glider was lifted from Blizzard. There are probably a lot of other factors we're not aware of.

Either way, it's shady, it's BS, and I think most of us agree. Blizzard should crackdown swift and hard against anyone in violation of the EULA/TOS. However, if they do believe they have a case against this guy, I hope they nail him hard. I'm sick of hackers, botters, modders and other cheaters always spoiling the online experience for others.

Captain Impulse

@Naikrovek: Blizzard's argument is that the author engaged in contributory copyright infringement by creating a program which allows others to engage in copyright infringement through the RAM rule from the MAI Systems case.

In other words, Blizzard is arguing that Glider's author violated federal copyright laws.

scoli83

@ara: Thanks for the info. I'll have to do some research to learn a bit more.

scoli83

@scoli83: I would suspect things are pretty the much same everywhere, I doubt that EULA written in some foreign language and using laws of some foreign country would be valid in US. Finland is just such a small country that not many companies bother to hire local lawyers to translate and adapt their EULA for us.

ara

@ara: The US doesn't have a national language, so there is no requirement that a EULA, or any contract, be written in any specific language. However, one could always rely on common law defenses such as unconscionability, nondisclosure, or even that there was never an acceptance.

scoli83

Fighting WoW Glider is a lost cause for Blizzard and is only a PR effort for the most part.

Even if they sue the guy out of existence, 10,000 Chinese farmers are bound to get another glider-like program. The demand is there and Blizzard definitely haven't done anything to ease the grind on your alts.

Max Freak

The problem with gliders is you get a bunch of noobs at lvl 70 running around not knowing how to play their class. They might as well go ebay their characters.

I'm with Blizzard here.

glowpasa

I don't bot (I don't want my account canceled), but I'm pro botting. I don't feel that they should be against the rules... they may be annoying at times, but if it was allowed I would probably bot frequently, since people like me (with a full time job, and a life outside the game), have an automatic disadvantage in the game vs college students and others who can spend up to 20+ hours a day. it would be nice if I could set my character on auto every so often instead of grinding for 2 weeks for gold.

thebluick

I hope Glider wins. If the game was fun all the way trough people wouldn't bot.....Blizzard doesn't want that to happen???....then improve your shitty game.....I may even think about coming back when you fix it......perhaps.

krunkjuice

@krunkjuice: It has nothing to do with the game being shitty or not. People will cheat for cheating's sake. 10 million paid subscriptions don't lie.

Captain Impulse

@Kaljin: I 100% agree with ur last paragraph, i think that if it were free, it should be allowed.
Now for my opinion, I think that lvling takes too long. Even with all the changes to the exp and such, it still takes way too long. I personally think that Blizzard should win but allow Glider to continue if Blizzard gets something like 75% of the sales of the product. I know people that use it and constantly play WoW with their Glided lvl 70's and they enjoy it.
If Blizzard would allow it, i would start paying to play again and i would pay the $20 or so it costs to buy Glider...

Kaizin514

Leveling up your main by using glider is definitely wrong, you only do it once and its fun. Casuals dont need glider, since frankly they dont need the gold for anything. If you raid 6 nights a week it is absolutely legit to have glider farm the gold for you, so you dont have to bother with the boring aspects of the game. ITS A GAME <- So how can you blame anyone for skipping the boring part and just doing the fun (when applied to hardcore raiding).

pangbulle

This is my first post on Kotaku - I've been an avid reader forever, but I just have to chime in here.

I can't believe people can't understand this. Look, I hate botters as much as anyone, but here's the step-by-step of why Glider is okay.

1. In Blizzard's game, Blizzard makes the rules.
2. The penalty for cheating in Blizzard's game is up to Blizzard.
3. Their penalty is banning.
4. Glider helps you cheat.
5. If Blizzard catches you with Glider, you are banned.

That is ALL BLIZZARD CAN DO. Glider doesn't mess with their program, it just automates it from a point where they no longer have control over their program - your computer. They can do whatever they want to you for doing that - but ONLY IN THEIR GAME.
This isn't a 'hand grenade' example. Here's a better example.

- You sign a contract with me saying that you cannot have a small blue dog. If you do get a dog, I'll stop hitting you with a fish, or whatever.

- You go and buy a small blue dog.

What can I do? I can stop hitting you with a fish. But can I go and sue the dog sellers? Selling blue dogs isn't illegal.

Here's a more ominous way of looking at it: If Blizzard wins, then other perfectly legitimate methods of decreasing your playtime, in ANY game that you pay for, can get the maker of that time-saver sued. They aren't just suing saying that Glider messes with WoW code (for copying it into memory, AFTER they send it to your computer? Come on. You aren't copying it to anyone, you aren't even making a backup. If you copied your WoW folder to another hard drive, you would be just as liable in that part), they are suing because it also 'lowers the subscription length'.

Gamefaqs - gone. (well.. :) )
Hint guides - gone.
Technically, if you run upstairs to get a sandwich, and your little brother clicks on the evil sheep for you, he could be sued for saving you time.

If you tell your buddy how to pull something, when he has no idea what 'pull' means, and he doesn't learn in-game from it, THAT IS THE SAME THING. You just taught him something that let him level, say, 15 seconds faster. You are now legally on the hook for that subscription time.
So, to summarize - Glider sucks, bots ruin the economy, but the only solution for Blizzard is to ban botters better. (tongue twists, ahoy!)

RedThree

It's a third party add on for a game so Blizzard should not have a case there.
Realisticaly, there are so many farmers out there that the talk about new players not getting gold etc. due to bots does not hold water. Yes people abuse it but not as much as blizzard states it.
Let me point it out like this. Let's say WV Golf has no automatic gearshift, cruise control etc. Its a popular car and people buy it a lot. So someone makes all that for it. And people who like it easy by that stuff. Should WV sue them (Of course not). Should they give it away for free (even if production is free there is still the development cost, so NO). is it unfair? well you get what you pay for.
Its service that's abused. Honda CRX was and is known as Death Coffin because its scary fast, dirt cheap and structurally unsound a bit. So people who don't have enough driving skills race around and get killed. Should Honda be sued for making traffic unsafe? Heck no, CRX was a hit at a time and the tradition is healthy today in Civic type R. Its people who abuse good things, not things itself.
And it is all about money. Blizzard loses money to this program so of course they want it down. But then car makers should sue all servicing companies for fixing cars when people could buy new ones.

carnex

Registered just to make this point, so here goes.

@djricekcn, ara: "it would be fucked up to live in a world where companies can make up laws whenever they feel like it."

Thanks for bringing that up; I think it's important to consider.

I disagree with botting. It is effectively cheating, on a much worse level: you affect others. Nobody cares if you use autofire controllers to max out your characters during the river escape scene in FF6; they certainly care if you can accomplish something time consuming while not even being present.

That having been said, I don't think Blizzard ought to win this one. EULAs should not have legally binding status. They are contracts which are not only one-sided, but set in stone. You can't email Actiblizzard and negotiate a deal. Blizzard is not giving you anything in return for this contract, except for access to their service, and you're already paying $15 for that. If they want an EULA to be enforceable, they should provide it, in full, at time of sale, and make customers sign every *SINGLE* page, possibly in blood.

Ever buy a house? A car not at a bad-credit-pay-cash place? If not, ever hear about what a hassle it is? Why do you think there are so many places offering to streamline paperwork? It's because there's a lot of paperwork! What's more, it all needs to be read, signed, notarized, etc. Contracts are something much more serious than a text box at the beginning of a game, and I don't remember Blizzard ever inviting me to a meeting to confirm my application to their game, followed with a symbolic contract signing where I traded pens with Chris Metzen.

Why can't we just buy the product? If I buy an apple, I buy an apple. If I buy a car, I buy a car, although it does have terms associated with it. If I buy a cell phone, I'm buying a cell phone plan, not the phone itself -- that's just a gift you occasionally have to pay a few hundred for. If I buy a computer game and shell out additional money over time for it, I should own my copy of the game, own the characters I'm playing it with, and own any in-game things I create, such as guilds, arena teams, etc.

Granted, Blizzard has every right to just say "no" and ban my account. I completely believe there should be a set of rules and enforce them. But corporate power has increased to a point where they have complete control over our lives.

You know what the problem ultimately stems from? It's that companies are people. Corporations are legal entities, so they are entitled to all the same rights we have... Except that they have more money, so they can pursue violations more easily and have more clout bargaining with politicians. We shouldn't even be having this conversation. Any company, even Blizzard, should fear its customers, not the other way around. EULAs are just another way to make us cower.

Laute