I think he did do some extensive work on this subject but of course that will not be in the book.!!!!!

freespeech

No, it does not make them gay, nor would having a physical relationship with a fully altered transsexual in the real world. For all that it matters it's a heterosexual relationship to them.

I have to disagree with the statement that an online relationship isn't real though. Human relationships are based on experiences and communication and both exist online. Is it the same as a relationship in the real world? Of course it's not, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real relationship.

Zunnoab

The funny part is that half those guys cheating on their wives in second life are probably cheating with guys pretending to be girls. The question should be: does that make them gay?

HackJenkins

@ Spoony Bard- thanks for the compliment, darlin'. ;-)
My feeling is, if you wouldn't act a certain way or do a certain thing with someone else, in front of your partner's face, then you don't do it behind his, or her, back. I play Bible Black, and get very into the sex scenes, lol. Jay has yet to blast me for cheating over the game. Cheating involves another human, and some sort of connection.
I think MySpace or Facebook would cause more issues than SL. You just have to trust your partner, until you have concrete proof that you can no longer do so.

Menolly

OK, so... to those who say that this isn't the same as porn (which, I personally think it kinda is... it's little more than aided mastrubation)...

Is phone sex (like, with a professional) cheating?

(PS. I've already weighed in, this is just a devil's advocate question)

Evil J

@jayntampa: Jay, you only say that b/c your girl's hot. :)

Spoony Bard

@Wyld:
My thoughts exactly.

StartRunning

Maybe it's not cheating, but would you really want to be in a relationship with somebody who's into that in the first place?

Jesse in Japan

It's sad that we have to have this conversation in the first place. The fact that people take their cyberspace lives as seriously as (or more seriously than) their meatspace lives is disturbing and, at the same time, unsurprising.

peAr_nectAr

@HobbaHobba: Absolutely honesty like that works. I used to be very upfront about it, what I was looking for and what I wasn't. I was also clear that if they ever started feeling to attached that they should inform me and perhaps it would be time to part ways.

That worked rather well until I met the girl I've been with for the last five years. So eh.

Actually we've talked about cheating. Right now at least, we both say we'd understand if it happened once in a while in the future. And so far both of us assume the other has been faithful.

Frankly I find other women boring or tiresome after her so I don't have much of a desire to cheat right now.

SSJPabs

@cybereality: That's ridiculous ... as Playboy doesn't talk back. The cheating issue comes into play when you're sharing your intimacy with another human other than your chosen partner.

jayntampa

I think you are right but I want to take it a step further. I think that you can be in a serious relationship one minute and then a part-time lover affair the next. Flowing like water is important. I take it however it comes and try not to label anything. I like to see how things play out. I think people should adapt to the situation.

R.O.

There's no doubt you can find that special person have that great connection. That's basically the core of relationship: connecting both physically and emotionally. That's true and I agree with that.

But a lot of couples that I know of tend to cling onto their unhappy relationship because they've invested so much in it that they're not willing to let it go. They know the relationship is going nowhere and they know that at some point they're gonna end up cheating in the near future. Yet they don't want to let it go. So when the cheating happens, bam, emotional tantrum, bla bla bla, exhaustion, trauma all stuff we all know and experienced.

So it's crucial to know when to end it. The sooner, the better.

I told all the girls I've dated including the ones I'm dating right now that I see our relationships as "day per day" basis. I'm not going to put so much pressure on any of us if things don't work out because we can just walk away and move on with our lives.

I've never been happier. Little to no drama, completely non-constrained relationships and I am still in great friendship with my ex-es. They all love the fact that I do not see them as owned pieces of property that I must control at all times. I give them the freedom to do what they do best and they return the favor by being my girlfriends.

HobbaHobba

I say if you think it's cheating, or you feel bad (shame) about doing it, then yes. As for me, I couldn't care less (and yes I am part of the Kotaku 3%... oh for those of you who don't know, that is the code for those that have REAL LIFE girlfriends/wives).

DeeBG

If SL is considered cheating then so is wanking off to a copy of Playboy. But definition it is not a "real" experience. Thats why its called "virtual".

cybereality

Emotional betrayal would hurt me a hell of a lot more than just being cheated on, though the latter usually entails the former.

@Hannah: What the lady said.

Huxleyhobbes

@HobbaHobba:

Hmm...that's an interesting way to look at things. I won't really say I disagree with you but I'd like to interject for a moment.

While I would say to some level that you're right about the constraints that society puts on us as people I would like this say that isn't the only reason people are hurt by infidelity.

Like you said, humans are selfish creatures. We will do whatever we believe will bring us the greatest sense of satisfaction. But you're only looking at the sexual side of things. I will say what would be even more important to look at would be from the side of love and the idea of monogamy.

I think the thing about monogamy isn't simply just being with one person, it's the idea of having a person who loves you more than anyone else. More than being the most important part. More than simply having a strong psychical connection with someone, it helps our esteem to believe their is a person out there who puts us above all others.

I think that is why infidelity is so painful to people . For one it's if the person who committed the act spit in the face of the person it was committed upon. I would say as if the person broke the "promise" the two made when they got into the relationship, it's if the person is saying "you weren't good enough".

And the thing, it's makes the partner feel as if they weren't good enough. Chemical attraction or not, basically for the person who has cheated and the person who has been cheated on it is if they have failed. That's why a lot of people have trouble getting back into relationships after being cheated on. Not only do they lose some of their ability to trust others, but they lose the esteem they get from having been able to keep a stable relationship.

Now I'm not saying polygamy is a bad thing, really what people do with their lives is their own business. But to some level I would like to believe it's possible to find that special person you really want to be with. And if you do, I think that's a great thing really. If you don't and things don't work out, well them da brakes I guess.

In the end, I think it comes down to a choice. And I think, honestly, most people choose to be monogamy. Partily because of society and partly because of selfishness. I know that's the choice I've made.

But I am a selfish person afterall.

Also, long post is long.

Dragkonias

In general, I consider SL relationships pointless. People take them far too seriously, acting as if they're exactly the same as an equivalent relationship in real life... even when they have not yet confirmed that their online "girlfriend" is actually a girl.

That being said, however, I met my current boyfriend on Second Life. We started talking, noticed sparks, and a couple of months later I went to visit him for a 3 week vacation. I was understandably apprehensive -- I know that the odds of an online relationship working in real life are incredibly low -- but surprisingly all went well. I attribute my success largely to the fact that I never tried to treat it as a SL relationship, I just viewed SL as the place that happened connect me to him. It could just as easily have been a forum, chatroom, or even a bar/club in real life.

So yeah... it is possible to find someone special on a game like SL, but keeping the relationship on there still seems pointless to me. Many people who do it want to think it's 100% real (and even that cybersex is just as meaningful and pleasurable as real sex), and yet they still refuse to make their relationship real by bringing it out of the game and into the real world. The feelings may be real, but since the rest isn't -- and if there's no plan to make it real, it's not even a proper long-distance relationship -- it quickly becomes pointless.

On the topic of cheating, I would be hurt if my significant other had a relationship with another woman either online or offline. Cheating doesn't suddenly become wrong only when two people kiss or have sex. It would hurt me even if it never got to that point because I hate being lied to, and I want to be the only person playing any romantic/sexual role in my boyfriend's life. I don't care if he looks at porn because the pornstars have no contact with him and are thus not involved with him in any way, but if he started having a relationship on Second Life or any other game, that would bother me just as much as a relationship in real life.

...

@NoFunShogun:

imo, its even simpler than that.

it has more to do with whether or not you are hiding it from your spouse.

it is cheating for some married men to look at porn or go to a strip club, if their wives feel that its cheating.

if their wives are okay with it, and don't see it as cheating, than its not.

its the kind of thing you have to discuss with your partner, and come to terms with what you decide together. if you won't agree to her terms, than you have to tell her, and decide what to do about whether or not you'll stay together. simple as that.

everything needs to be worked out with your partner. thats why they are your partner in the first place, afterall.

joelface

This is why society is messed up. In order to keep a girl from cheating on you, they put up all these pseudo-barriers that says you can't do this or that because it's cheating and that you must be faithful to your man at all cost.

Guess what? Those restriction actually entice them more to cheat on you.

Sorry guys, but as humans we are genetically built to have sex with as many women as possible. So do women with many men. You can say that it's "immoral" or "low" or all that bullshit society standard, but many evidences tell time and time again that what society consider to be the "right thing to do" is not necessary the best thing for you as a person.

Example: our increasing divorce rate (nuff said), your girlfriend or you cheating at some point, unhappily married couples, and all those "society hypocrites" like Eliot Spitzer and molesting priests. If society tells you that monogamy is the "right" thing to do, why do these infidelity and incidents keep reoccurring?

You can keep telling your girl that your relationship as strong and lasting as possible, but guess what? When you're both walking on the mall for shopping and you notice that super hot blonde hovering around the clothing stand, your eyes go "swoooosh" and check her out for a while. Your society "moral" obligation dictates you that you should be loyal to your girl, but your body chemical doesn't lie. It signals you to do what you as a man supposed to do: be attracted to a lot of girls.

Funny thing is that the only guy who is 110% honest with his lifestyle in having sex with a lot of women yet maintaining the healthiest family relationship is Gene Simmons (that dude from KISS). Watch his interviews on Family Jewel and Youtube and you know what I mean.

I can only imagine many married couples are jealous how happy and how much Gene's family get along to each other despite the fact that he's unmarried to his girlfriend Shannon Tweed. Most married couples I know are not even that close to be that happy.

BTW, I highly recommend these 3 books:
[www.womensinfidelity.com] , The Selfish Gene, and Sex, Money Kiss (yeah Gene wrote this one himself).

HobbaHobba

@Gypsie: Ouch. Hehe. Just remember the couch isn't so bad. Treat it like camping.

FrigidAir44

This seems too simple to even warrant discussion. If it's just, "oh look, our avatars are married!" it's not cheating.

If its "oh look, our avatars are married! Let's cyber!" it is cheating.

NoFunShogun

well...i just like to thank kotaku for raising this issue...coz now im sleeping on the couch...

it wud appear men and women have VERY different views on this issue, as to which is right? I wudnt like to say, but that is, in essence, the making of a good debate!! #

before my gf got fed up and banished me we resolved it was all about intimacy, and while i, hypothetically, see virtual/cyber sex as a highly elaborate wank, to her it involved many levels of broken trust etc....

tough call...in the long run, who knows? but at the end of the day - if 1 out of 2 parties considers it cheating, its relationship over. so does it really matter who is right? no...it just means a lot of guys are going to get dumped as a result.

Gypsie

Next time I get dragged into one of those fascinating arguments with drunken friends (when I'm the only one sober) about whether a kiss/handjob/fellatio/etc. is cheating, I'll ask them: "Is virtual sex really cheating?" That oughta shut them up for at least a little while, until they wrap their heads around the concept.

me, my yoke + i

There is another side to this that most people don't get.

Yes you can get married in Second Life, and people who do this tend to take their Second Life relationships VERY seriously. Some as seriously as a real life relationship.

So lets say you are married in Second Life, but single in real life. Then lets say you catch your Second Life partner having virtual sex with another person's avatar? Is that 'cheating' and should it be taken seriously considering its all virtual and its just a 'game?'

I've personally witnessed scenarios like this play out in Second Life where it emotionally destroyed people (in their real lives). Its not too uncommon to run across a conversation like this:

Avatar 1: "Can you believe he's been cheating on her al this time with that damn slut? This has been going on for the past week."

Me: "Wow, thats pretty terrible. You can't trust anybody these days...wait a minute, you mean in real life right?"

Avatar 1: "No, in Second Life..."

Me: "Oh..."

My observation has been that whatever mind a person has in real life they play out the same patterns in Second Life. After a certain point, most people on there don't make a discernable difference between their Second Life and reality. Its sad that people have to escape like that, but it is what it is.

dirkxxdiggler

@CaptainSquishy: Squishy it's about the chemicals your mind makes in response to signals that your body's nerves give it. Reproduce that, and you can have nearly as much fun.

It's why you can cause people to orgasm under hypnosis without any kind of physical contact.

SSJPabs

Emotional cheating is just as bad as physical cheating... but its certainly not the same.

Physical cheating is betrayal of the body. Emotional is one of the soul.

Like it or not, pathetic or romantic... people do get involved in completely digital relationships with other people. And if their are feelings involved, people can get hurt.

So no its not the same. But in some circumstances... it can be just as devastating to a relationship to find out your significant other is having an intimate on-line relationship with somebody else.

FrigidAir44

Virtual sex is only cheating if your significant other is a programmer.

TaggarT6

@Evil J: Your right. And every person has their own list of Do's and Do Not's. Though, its not particularly "weird" that that girl you mentioned forbade kissing, but allowed oral sex. In that situation, she is probably away that her man enjoys going to strip clubs and whatnot, and she is alright with that like your wife is alright with you watching porn on the computer. (sorry, i LoLed after that - im still a lil' immature...)
Anyways, but that girl probably despises Oral sex and would rather have some one els do it for her. Theres a ton of reasons. One good one being that, if she forbade both kinds of physical affairs, her boyfriend would grow bored, thus' doing it in secret anyways which now counts as cheating. And her views on kissing might be that kissing is a form of real passion from one lover to the other, and would only like it to be between two true lovers. Well, at least thats what I think, I share that same view on kissing at leat... ¬.¬

And there you have it...

King Seafoam

I live by a simple rule: I don't do anything that I'd have a problem with my significant other knowing about. Cheating is really about a betrayal of trust, not the act ... so, if that intimacy is what is important to your partner, sharing it with someone else is cheating.

If you can't tell your partner that you're cybering with someone in Second Life either 1) you shouldn't be doing it or 2) you need to dump your partner ... otherwise, I'd have to agree with the cheating bit.

Now, doing it with a game is not ... it requires an actual other person for cheating to be involved.

jayntampa

Why don't you ask your spouse this question and see what she/he says. If he/she says no, that means no. If he/she says ok, then don't expect he/she to be faithful to you either. You reap what you sew..

Yam

Very serious online Hitman are you kidding me? I wanna laugh, but at the same time I'm afraid he might get me. Help.

Jericho114

@homeskillet81:
My vote for quote of the day.

This should be the benchmark question for an action in regards to cheating:

It's not cheating if you would be OK with your significant other doing it to your best friend, and your significant other would be OK with you doing it to their best friend.

How this applies to porn, I'm not sure.

Evil J

@King Seafoam:
I'm sure there is, and not to sound callous, but I kinda find that very... peculiar.

Also off topic, I am too interested in this virtual hitman thing.

Evil J

id like to say to my fellow men , you may say its not cheating and its not the physical stuff, but if you find your wife or even girlfriend doin' your buddy your opinion will change >_>

homeskillet81

@Spoony Bard:
Hey, I have little shame for what I did and much regret. There is a difference. I did feel the need to throw that in there as it is some real-world experience that applies. I'm not proud of myself, but, it is what it is, and lying about it or pretending it never happened would just mean I didn't learn my lesson from it... and lessons are meant to be shared.

@King Seafoam:
Completely agree with you here. I think every relationship has a set of rules, stated or unstated, and if you feel the need to hide it, it's probably cheating.

My wife knows I love me some internet porn, and has told me that so long as her needs aren't left wanting because I'm more into spending time in front of the sex-image-generator (AKA my computer), she doesn't care. I know some women who see getting a lap dance at a strip club as the same as cheating, and some who would actually say it's ok for their partner to have someone else give them oral sex (OK, not some, one woman has said that... strangely enough, kissing was off limits which pretty much meant that prostitution was the only way he could get anything, so why someone would... nevermind, she was weird in general).

Point is, you know you're cheating when you're cheating.

Evil J

@Custom Reality: some people are incapable of have real physical relationships. Theres a hundred different reasons why too.

King Seafoam

Girlfriends and wives of the world says "YES"

k3nji

@Zegridathes:

This isn't really related to the current discussion, but I'm also a lot more interested in a what kind of activities a "very serious virtual hitman" actually participates in...

yakuza278

simply put- cheating is whatever your partner considers it. It can be physical or emotional, as long as they become jealous from it. For example, cheating can implied from , of course, an actual affair, porn videos, pictures, Hell, even enjoying a good ice cream sunday a little too much in front of them...

If that is the case, God help you, you may need to have a long talk with them - or find another partner.

King Seafoam

I agree with the overall sentiment. Cheating is cheating, and - why - would you want to have "love" in a virtual environment? Since when were people ok with not being able to have the physical aspect of a relationship? I can see maybe for a short while when people have to be apart, but indefinitely? Or even permanently? Married to someone online and online only? That just seems so unfulfilling to me.

Custom Reality

@CaptainSquishy: Well, I don't know. I mean if we all think sex is necessary to express love, romantic or otherwise, I think we've sunk pretty low as a society. By physical he could simply mean non-intellectual, and so that would include all the emotional (part-physical, part-mental) reactions/interplay involved in loving someone.

Alternatively, wow would I love someone without a body? and would that be a lasting love? I mean, I think it's easy to _fall_ in love with something, more so if they've the benefit of the distance that online interactions provide (that is, it's easy to love someone when you never have to smell their beer shits), but it would be quite hard to sustain that love in the physical world. I guess, there is an argument here that second life and the like may be nothing more than modified versions of old-school love letters, but I still think the physical is not just necessary, but fundamental.

PearceShea

I think the more important question is;
Do people (males) who engage in Virtual Sex have a partner?

Gladman

-_- awful lot of posts with the same answer... I don´t know why we are discussing this, since everyone agrees with this subject.. lol

Wyld

This would make a great CHEATERS episode :)

elpoepFTW

Cheating is whatever your angery partner defines it as. I'm sure everyone will attest to how wonderfully effective logical excercises are at soothing the emotions of a upset lover (which is what this conversation amounts to)...

dbushik

Cheating is cheating. Pornography as a masturbatory aid is alright but if you're engaging in this activity with another active personality (i.e. phone sex, cyber sex) its cheating, period.

Sparx

@CaptainSquishy: People who are dead from the waist down often develop a band of erotically sensitive tissue on their chest. I'm your guide to the world of facts!

onidavin

@Evil J: Wow.

Spoony Bard

Is it with another person? Yes, it is cheating. If your SO doesn't approve, probably a pretty big deal.

Is it with a tool, whether a vibrator or an automated sexy avatar? No, not cheating. But if your SO doesn't approve, they might feel hurt.

onidavin

@CaptainSquishy: Well, I'd say the mere physical presence of people creates feelings that a mental presence cannot. Love is indeed a product of the mind, but its also a product of the body.

Furious_Liver

@CaptainSquishy:

Quote of the day. ;]

Vidril

@elpoepFTW:
That was creepily similar

Evil J

Seriously... here's the thing... my opinion on "virtual sex" is that if it's just "aided mastrubation" like phone sex, cyber sex, etc, it's really no different than porn. If your partner considers porn watching cheating, than sure, this is cheating.

When you're having a "virtual" relationship with someone... that's where it crosses the line. I agree with the whole "emotional cheating" thing... I think that's just as damaging to a relationship (if not more so) than even "non-virtual" physical cheating.

I've been a physical and emotional cheater, and I told my wife about it and stopped being a liar and a cheat and came clean about everything (not to ease my conscience; I had a chance to end my marriage and go with the other woman and decided to stay and realized that my wife made the same choice but without all the facts so it was unfair), and I can say my wife wasn't as hurt by the fact that I slept with someone else as much as that I was partially in love with someone else.

Evil J

And what exactly would a virtual hitman do?
That wasn't real-world illegal?

Zegridathes

Tim Guest used to write a column in EDGE magazine, come to think of it. It was mostly about Second Life as well, I recall. His columns were always an interesting read =)

StormTec

I don't know if it's cheating or not, but if I found out my girlfriend was diddling herself to someone in SL I'd dump her.

smitty1123

Yet again if you are using cheat codes :)

elpoepFTW

Cheating really has to do with one part lying and two parts emotional attachment. If you didn't tell your Sig. Other that you were doing x with someone, that shows YOUR guilt at the matter and somewhat proves you know you did something wrong. The emotional attachment to the other person is what you feel guilty about.

*shrugs*
When all is said and done, Polygamy for the win. Thinking there is ONLY one person out there for you is silly. We're capable of so much love and hatred. Saying you can only love one person is like saying you can only hate one person, and I think the KKK and Al Qaeda and Nazis may disagree with that statement. You can hate a LOT. Therefor I can love a lot.

Big love. 8)

Setzer IIDX

It's not cheating, just pathetic.

elpoepFTW

Is virtual sex cheating? Maybe, but it's for sure a virtual word: pathetisad.

Evil J

Yes

AaronMD

Call me an idiot but... You can have sex and get married in second life ??? wtf?

Sounds pretty intresting though.... the book I mean not the virtual sex eh heheh.

Tzero7

I think the crux of the issue of virtual sex is the "emotional cheating" that goes on. In the real world, emotional cheating can be just as bad for some people as having an actual affair.

Brine

Depends, if you´re not telling your real partner (AKA LYING) to that person, that´s the meaning of cheating. But if you 3 have a gangbang online while masturbating, that´s your problem, not mine and no cheating involved. So simple that I don´t see the point of this question.

I think that cheating in a relationship shoudn´t involve if you´re screwing or kissing someone else, but if you´re lying to that person and hiding the truth to someone you swore to be sincere.

Wyld

I don't agree with that quote. What if you are dead from the waist down? Love won't have anything to do with the physical relationship there. But you can still love.

CaptainSquishy