Aaron Greenberg is a fucking dumbass. There is no question that he can actually answer with a dose of reality. I have not seen such an incompetent douchebag since Scott McClellan. Live should be free but Mr. Greenberg doesn't think so. Every 360 should have a HDD but Mr. Greenberg doesn't think so. What a stupid fuck at a stupid fuck division. Aaron, enjoy second place while you can. You tool.

Gagamus

@Luke: love the picture for this article

ion1626

@Unquiet Slumbers:
Oh OK. I thought the article meant Mr. Greenberg was suggesting that those games don't do this because of casual gamers without the HDD...

Demaar

Something to think about - if it was all about the "money", they would WANT more games to require the HDD, so that folks that got the Arcade would feel like they HAVE to upgrade.

Why not add 20g drives? Thing is, most drive manufacturers don't just make their old drives cheaper, they discontinue them. That's why there were various drives in the original xboxs to begin with. Going to the 60gig drive is probably as much about manufacturing as it is about marketing for the 360.

I'm still lost why you couldn't have a way of determining that a game should require the drive for caching, because it's a game designed for use with a drive. Maybe it's just a pandora's box type of issue.

Bluvox

This is what's known in economics as the Median Voter problem. Politicians over a long term, will tend towards the centre, to avoid alienating either extreme. Similarly, as gaming gets mass market, expect to see similar behaviour from manufacturers, as they want to get a majority share. Developers, who do not need to get market share quite so much (people buy more games than consoles) are more resistant... but note how in individual genres, you can get a lot of "follow the centre style behaviour.
That was way too verbose for this time in the morning.

CurlyJim

Is it just me, or is this the generation of selling out your base to appeal to the mass market?
Ok, I realize that's been true for a while, but it seems to be getting bigger lately.

KypFox

*moan

okenny :)

What's new... games complain about what they are potentially missing when they're getting a selection of the best games out there. I don't see a problem not having a hard drive aside from a few developers saying they have to sometimes find ways to make things work when no HD is present. I honestly believe the smart ones design around this. Fanboys can bitch and maon but I want my $200 core... screw you guys who keep trying to kill my cheap 360!

okenny :)

There is only three things I want from MS:

1 - Pull their collective heads out of their asses.
2 - Drop the virtual rape price of their 120GB HDD.
2 - Let the developer have the option of making an "HDD REQUIRED" game.

That's it!

Acute Gamer

Manditory HDD = consumers bitching about install times.

Its a complete lose/lose. No matter how much you cater to what people tell you they want, they'll bitch and bitch and bitch.

You cant please anyone.. Dont even bother trying. Just rob them blind of their money and be happy with it.

I'd say Microsoft has the idea.

Korbei

@peacefuloutrage:

"Selling Arcade or Core consoles and allowing developers to sell HDD only games are 2 different stories. Can you play Totem Ball without the camera? How about Karaoke Revolution without the microphone? Can you save a game without a memory card or HDD? No. People are not that stupid."
"MS talks about giving people choices, which I respect, but if they really restricting developers, then they are being hypocrites and keeping the developers and consumers from being able to make the decision on their own."

totally agreed.

joelface

@PapaBear434:

quality of games come second to advertising? have you looked at the 360's library?!

is that any different than how ps3 games' quality came second to winning a format war or how wii games come second to... oh, who am i kidding, there's only a handful of wii games that aren't candy colored shvelware.

coin_operated_boy

That's a bullcrap answer, plain and simple.

Selling Arcade or Core consoles and allowing developers to sell HDD only games are 2 different stories. Can you play Totem Ball without the camera? How about Karaoke Revolution without the microphone? Can you save a game without a memory card or HDD? No. People are not that stupid. What about all of the DLC on xbox live that is larger than a memory card like map packs, add-ons, demos, and movies? If people really want this stuff they will but what's needed. MS talks about giving people choices, which I respect, but if they really restricting developers, then they are being hypocrites and keeping the developers and consumers from being able to make the decision on their own.

As long as MOST of the content doesn't require a HDD, people won't feel like MS is shafting them. I mean, look at all of the Eye Toy, network adapter, microphone, and dance pad games on the PS2. Nobody complained about those. The only time people complain about peripherals is when they are under-used (FFXI) or low quality (Rock Band/Guitar Hero probs).

peacefuloutrage

Honestly I think they should just leave it up to the developers. If they want to require a HDD then let them - just put a nice little icon on the back of the box. If the person really wants the game, they will go out and buy the HDD - if anything that benefits MS.

While it may not be the most appropriate comparison, to me it seems like not allowing devs to require a HDD at this point is the same as not allowing games with two players since the console only comes with one controller.

forcetrainer

No standard HDD for the 360 is going to be the death of it. They started off right with the original Xbox... with consoles it's all about UNIFORMITY. Multiple SKUs that don't offer the same opportunities out of the box is a death sentence. Moving forward, MS should offer major discounts on the 20GB HDD and allow developers the ability to use the HDD however they please... catering to the lowest common denominator's supposed to be a PC hindrance. Same goes for the XBLA games... enough constraints, what's the percentage of Core/Arcade 360 owners?

UncleScrotar

They only sold out of Core SKU's at launch because there wasn't any Premiums left. This is getting really stupid.

Grey_Fox

You need a HDD this gen. Optional HDDs are SO LAST GEN!

And MS pricing on their HDD is a sin against man! $179 for a 120GB, PISH POSH GALLY WAK! I can get a 300 GB HDD for my PS3 for the SAME PRICE!

God Bless.

Sailorcancer

@JediMaster:

No, JM, I agree completely. Gamers can be a selfish lot sometimes, so many can't see the benefits of having this SKU.

My question is how many/what games have been "gimped" because of this? 360 games have been fantastic and not lagging behind PS3 games because of its standard HDD. One dev complained because they wanted to do an install on the 360 like the PS3, but many gamers have stated that they DON'T want that to become standard.

Each console has its challenges. The split RAM of the PS3 is proving to be a challenge compared to the 360, but devs have gotten around it. The lack of an HDD on all 360's has proved to be a challenge, but devs are getting around it.

This is a huge fuss about NOTHING, folks. Seriously.

DARTH_TIGRIS

So now every time someone from MS starts a sentence, they are required by law to preface it with, "I'm a gamer"?

The part of this arguement from MS that makes no sense is that the kinds of games that would require HDD access...aren't really the kinds of games that "casual" gamers are going to be interested in.

Lost Odyssey and Mass Effect are mentioned. Anyone know many of these people MS is talking about that are goobling up the arcade units and getting ready to sit down to 60 or 80 hours of RPG play?

It's like saying we want to keep the music from getting loud so it doesn't bother the deaf people...

dbushik

@Unquiet Slumbers: No problems with Lost Odyssey for me.

mind in rewind

Aaron Greenberg is the new Jeff Bell.

THAT'S NOT A COMPLIMENT.

BTS.WRKNG

Definitely not worth the risk for Microsoft. Personally, for the next generation console, I would prefer to go with a two-unit configuration:

A much more compact console (kind of like the Dreamcast) with a small hard drive for caching, and an external hard drive unit that uses your average form-factor hard drive in capacities ranging from 400GB to 1TB that you can put the console on top of.

This ensures that the console goes back to its roots as a traditional game platform, while also giving the option to have an addon hard drive that is considerably cheaper than your average high-capacity laptop form factor HDD for all the DLC, installation content and so on.

That way, game developers can have two options for a single console: Have it load directly from the disc to the cache(long load times), or install the majority of the content to the external hard drive to minimize load times.

Of course, this can defeat the purpose of the cache, since depending on how fast the external hard drive reads the content to the console versus the next-generation console's optical data format (Blu-Ray). Today, Blu-Ray's read times are slower than DVD, due to the massive amount of content being read, and a SATA HDD reads data much faster than Blu-Ray. This could change by the time Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo announce their next generation contenders.

-NK

NKato

This was unexpected.
I figured when MS started to slip, they'd pull out some ace in the hole and reassume at least American semi-dominance, but it seems they've traded places with Sony - while a bunch of Sony's iffy projects destined for some distant uncertain future release are getting closer than ever to being realized, MS is starting to do more and more things as stupid as Sony has been up until now...

Although I do admire the way they're sticking behind their customers who bought a diskless system and supporting them as much as possible. It does hold the system back as a whole, especially if more devs make a game for PS3 first then port to 360 as is being discussed (and used?) more lately.

fuchikoma

@crapsh00t: Actually, in the case of Burnout the data that the HDD is required for DLC (because the game streams just fine without the HDD in offline play). Since they didn't want to limit online matches to people with certain DLC, they allow extra content to be downloaded at the time an online play session is started to any machine missing the content (be it cars or events or whatever). Since the cumulative content can easily be larger than the original memory card can hold, they require a hard drive for online matches and use the fixed cache portion of the hard drive (the part the user has no control over) for any transient downloadable content.

TrettOff

Luke, MS doesn't "gimp" the games. Games can require a hard drive on the 360- several already do and MS has a package label to distinguish such games. Personally I find the trend of every other PS3 game requiring a 5GB install to be more troubling. Did doing that really help Lost Planet? A better question would be why can't more games do the intelligent, transparent caching that most 360 games (like Oblivion and DOA4) already do while most games on the PS3 either have to do a lengthy, bloated install or suffer from longer load times than the 360 version.

TrettOff

I really can't understand M$ catering to the casual market. It's great that some gamers can get a stripped down 360 and aren't concerned with an HDD and whatnot, but the majority of gamers that have a 360 have a HDD. Honestly I don't know a single person who has a HDD-less 360.

So by Microsoft catering to the needs of the CLEAR minority of their customers game developers as well as 360 gamers are gettting screwed by not allowing devs to make games with the HDD in mind. It really hampers development of anything more than small scale games. Larger scale games like Oblivion, Mass Effect, GTA IV, Saint's Row, etc. would turn out so much better in the long run and so many issues that some of these games have like texture pop up, long loading, etc. would be a thing of the past.

Honestly Microsoft needs to include a 20 GB HDD in all core/arcade units. It'd do wonders for game developers and players alike.

Mech_Master

Thankfully, Burnout Paradise has set a bit of a precedent by requiring an HDD for online play... which is primarily used in that setting to cache and stream data. This means we've begun down the slippery slope (a good thing in this case.) Eventually I suspect many games may list "Hard-drive required." If a few Arcade owners get duped, that's not my problem.

crapsh00t

it would be great if games could requier the hard drive. most games that would need it would be the more 'hardcore' games, like Lost Odyssey and Mass Effect, the more casual games and child oriented games (film based games, things like viva pinyata) wouldent need it, they just dont have the same kind of demands.

so what if an arcade owner picks up a game that requiers a harddrive? so the harddrive cost £70, your buying a £40 game, put a £40 voucher towards the cost of the harddrive in each game box that requiers it. that way, everyone wins, microsot get to keep the harddrive free version, people buying the cheeper sku get a cheeper upgrade route. its not ideal but its not awful either

cubed2D

@tei: That's right, people buy consoles so they can enjoy long load times instantly. You're essentially saying you would prefer to turn back the clock to cartridges. But I think there are more reasons for consoles than pick-up-and-play convenience. Standardized hardware allows developers to focus on content instead of gimping their code to work on the lowest common denominator. Caching data to make loading faster is better than time and money spent on finding work arounds. You want them to hire more programmers and less artists?

gozirah

If you think casual gamers don't need a hard drive, then only let developers require them for hardcore games. It's not that hard to work out, Microsoft. Casual gamers aren't going to be playing JRPGs.

cdammers

Okay, personally I think LO's instability is more with inherent technical bugs, but yeah, not rocket-science to see MS still being thin-skinned assholes.

If they can't see how making a boneheaded decision like this would help them lose every single bit of advantage they've had over the PS3 (which is already down considerably since last year), while, good luck to you MS. You only screw over all of your consumer base by limiting the quality and potentially, quantity and variety of games at their disposal!

Byakko

so i bought a 250gig hd for my ps3 for 65 bucks off new egg.... yet it's too expensive to put a 20gig hd bundled with all 360s? those cost what now? 12 dollars? I like how MS is pushing digital downloads as the new HD media yet wont give us storage space for em... well they will if you want to buy that big ole elite hd separately for 180 dollars.

On the flip side, I'd like to see more advantage to installing stuffs on my ps3... i mean, there is almost no difference in load times atleast. I guess you can uncompress textures on the HD but people probably wont tell the difference.

Derigor

MS REALLY needs to cut the price of the 20GB HDD in half, $100 for 20GB laptop HDD is just insane. slash the price of hardrives and let devs make HDD cached games.

SAKY

@ShirtGuyDom: Its not, but it is more expensive than just going Pro to begin with, plus I think the Arcade still does not come with a headset, though it comes with a wireless controller now.

Afore Notation

Oh come one, slapping a 20GB hard drive on there can't be THAT expensive.

ShirtGuyDom

He forgot to mention that hard drives probably sold a lot too.

Fetus_God_of_Love

What I don't understand, is that by their logic: The people without the hard drive won't be playing the game that would require it. So why not?

Mukman

I wasn't expecting them to submit this round of consoles. They will do away with HDD inconsistency with the next gen system, and this will be talked about as one of the big flaws of the 360 (second, of course, to immense hardware failure)

I work at a store that sells gaming merchandise, and I try my hardest not to let customers buy the Arcade system unless I am 100% sure it is actually right for them (in other words, their old one red-ringed and they just need a new Box to attach their harddrive to.)

Afore Notation

@TheUpsetter: hee hee

lionkitten

Anytime this issue comes up I just think of the fact that Perfect Dark on the N64 required you to get an Expansion Pak to do anything other than a really stripped-down multiplayer mode. Nothing wrong with that.

jcsunshine

What you should have done with the banner pic is photoshop it so the kid is chewing the donkey, because we all know this brilliant idea is going to come back and bite Microsoft in the ass...

TheUpsetter

You're a gamer, I'm a gamer, we're connected to Live, we want to download content, so for us, we definitely want a hard drive...

Right, because average people can't handle devices with hard drives, like computers, dvrs, iPods and other music players, etc.

Yeah, hard drives are only for the hard core people who. Casual gamers love long load times and lag.

doubtful

Hey, I intend to buy a 360 arcade just for games like Lost Odyssey, Eternal Sonata, etc. I already own a PS3, have absolutely no interest in download-games, video on demand or demos. Is there still any reason why you'd recommend me a Pro version?

Ygg

@tei:
God gave the reasoning!? COOL!

Neo-Senku

A three second search on eBay netted me this:

20gb HDD - $45-$50
120gb HDD - $85-$95
Wireless Controllers - $25-$30

Seriously you don't have to pay retail for everything! Froogle is your friend as are forums like xbox-scene. Yes it sucks Microsoft uses proprietary drives with the 360 and you can't switch them out like a PS3. Of course they are not going to drop the "Arcade" SKU though, they have something that is competing with the Wii as far as price not to mention that by adding a set of component cables, out of the box the arcade can play every 360 game available, complete with stunning visuals. Granted you have to buy the HD component cables separate.

The Arcade pack does in no way gimp gaming on the rest of the 360 models. My pro still plays every game like it was intended. DMC 4 for example cannot be "installed" to my HDD but it is just a fast as its PS3 counterpart. I have played it on both. So Arcade users, if you want a hard drive, don't go to a big box store, surf around online and save yourself enough money to buy some games! Because in the end, isn't that what this is all supposed to be about?

re4de2ye0

@NameYourCharacter: I don't know, but I have read on the internet that people buy consoles because is easy to jump in games. The hard disk is the single "can of worms" that once is opened, you will never go back to that confortable console reality. All other technologies are "neutral", other than internet conexion (that is another can of worm, but is already opened). I think Nintendo reluctance to Internet is because these guys know that "online" is a can of worms. Both Nintendo and Microsoft made decisions, "platform defining" decisions. Imho, these decisions are not random, and hare supported by god reasons.

tei

@riskbreaker: What? Yes, I want a lag fest when I'm playing Halo. Have you tried to play brawl online?! Theres a half second button lag!
Sorry, I'd rather pay fifty bucks for good online then get a peice of crap for free. Also, no voice chat or names ever.

Blackjack1353

Such a step backwards. Having the first real hard drive based console with the original XBox and then switching to the new model with an "optional" hard drive? Bollocks.

Spoony Bard

can MS just include built-in wifi!?!?!? that's the biggest thing the 360 is missing.

riskbreaker

When will microsoft gain some testicular fortitude and simple force people to buy either the Pro or the Elite? I work at a Gamestop, and i've never, EVER moved an Arcade system. You know why? Because of one simple question, "What's the difference between the 3?" One consumers find out they're basically getting screwed over w/ the Arcade, nobody wants it.

Look at Sony, they are forcing people to choose between just the PS3 library or the entire PS library. From some balls M$, make the easy call and make the HDD standard. You don't even have to worry about the pricing or poor people. For the most part, if somebody wants a system, they'll get it. But if they can't afford one, they'll just bitch anyways, so why cater to the poor who can't even afford the Arcade?

Jigsaw_Complex

Im not defending MS at all in this, but I read a lot of you saying that a 20GB HD must be very cheap and the reality is that it really isnt that cheap. In fact a 20GB hard drive could be more espensive than a 40GG. The more mass produced something is the cheaper it is. Right now the most produced HDs are 40, 80, and 160. That would make those HD sizes comparatively cheaper than any other. This is the reason that Sony is using 40 and 80, and probably moving to 80 and 160 in the near future.

With the current gen of consoles, the best way to keep costs down is to use as many off the shelf components as they can. Considering that HDs are always getting larger and cheaper, what is off the shelf now for a HD wont be off the shelf later.

MS's big mistake here is not using a standard HD interface, which makes HD upgrades for them an expensive component.

cduran

@kNZA: I don't agree with saying that throwing 8G on there would solve anything. I have a 40G PS3. It will be full after I do mandatory installs of a handful more games. If everyone had an HDD, then 8 GB would be gone in seconds, because everyone would be using that space.

lionkitten

@puffa469:

So true!

The only way people will buy "optional" HDDs at ANY price is if they see a reason to own them.

If every big game is crippled enough to run on the Arcade/Core, why should I buy an overpriced MS drive?

Why should I buy a 360 if everyone says games load faster on PS3?

kNZA

To make money on the Arcade fiasco, MS would need to sell HDDs.

I don't think they are at these prices!

Include a small HDD or a SSD on the Arcade.
It will cost no more than $10 to include 8GB.

Reserve that space EXCLUSIVELY for game-caching/installs.

Suddenly the Arcade isn't gimping the entire Xbox lineup anymore!

kNZA

I agree. Microsoft started the console hard-drive era, and thus should be sticking to it.

Ultrasinc

@xboxsab: Microsoft doesn't want you ripping DVDs straight the to HD so they can make sure you have a Windows box somewhere else in the house doing that for you.

The 360 as a media extender works pretty well (and avoids the drive noise), but of course, you need Windows Media Center somewhere on your network. Still, though, if you haven't tried it and want the ability to store your DVD rips on something other than your 360 HD or a USB drive, give it a shot.

SinistarX

@Deusfaux: Hard? No. But I'm sure they'd much rather be spending the time it takes to do that adding additional gameplay elements. I know I would.

Kafeen

Other than the big RPG's are there any games that are really affected? Maybe load times would be slightly shorter, but, again, other than the big RPG's, I don't notice much offensive loading.

I mean, look at DMC4, with the mandatory install. Aren't the loads like 3 seconds longer on 360 or something. I think that article was here on kotaku.

I think it sucks more because of things like limiting arcade game size more than retail discs running better.

lionkitten

Can we please just skip to the point when Microsoft's biggest games of this year come out like Fable 2, Too Human, Gears etc; And ultimately they're riddled with so many problems that Microsoft have no choice but to allow HDD only games.

If developers are going to have the PS3 as the lead platform, then this HDD issue is going to become a major problem for Microsoft and may even lead to a loss of some higher profile games.

mysteryboy2k

You know what Ko-Tah-Kuu along with other websites should do? Send the links of these stories to MS and show them that NO, gamers do not agree with your idiotic thinking. Why must gamers with HDD suffer load times and unstable games when you could allow developers to use HDD and let the people who buy arcade suffer. Hell you do it for Xbox Marketplace...

People who are silver must wait a week for downloadable content, while Gold members may download right away. MS says this is a way to show Silver members what they are missing out on right? Well damnit, how about showing what the arcade buyers are missing out on? This way you either sell more Pro/Elites or sell more HDD's.

It's really sad to see 1st party games for Xbox suffer the most technical problems because they don't allow use of HDD. Aren't 1st party games supposed to be the top notch games on the 360 with no technical problems? Especially when the problem isn't with the developers but with MS not allowing them to use HDD. So Microsoft, how does it feel to be hurting your own games?

T3kNi9e

@El-Suave: I'm guessing by the time ps3 games have really started to push ahead of 360 games microsoft will have announced the next xbox.

@kingross: Except that so far the installations for multiplatform games don't seem to make much, if any difference at all.

wizardofoz85

I guess I'll have to keep buying multiplatform games that can be installed on the the PS3 for my PS3 rather than my 360. GG Microsoft

kingross

They're not doing any damage to their games as long as the PS3 versions aren't dramatically superior. Which they (unfortunately) aren't.

El-Suave

MS is never going to stop with the core because they want to make profits off add-ons and accessories because of the high markup. They can't see the damage they do to their games and their brand because they are so busy trying to get the nickel and dime their potential and actual userbase.

HurricaneDave

@tei: have you been to ramen shop in Chinatown? Most of those shops require those who enter to at least order something. Plus, the ramen shop here is MS. MS wants to serve ramen (downloadable content) but it doesn't have the bowl (HD) to serve it.

Evo

@SeriousStu: I followed your link to Gizmodo and checked my Elite: it also has the BenQ drive - which I already suspected because I'd immediately noticed that it wasn't as noisy as the Premium (which doesn't mean it's silent, though :P ).

I also played Mass Effect on the Elite, and it never crashed either (or if it did, I can't remember). You may be right, it could indeed have something to do with the drive.

(Sorry for the double post.)

me, my yoke + i

Weak reasoning MS, very weak.
A HDD should be standard issue for any console at this point. Hell, it was standard issue on the ORIGINAL XBOX! It was only a few years ago when MS used this fact as a dig on Sony when comparing to the PS2. What changed? How much cost would it be to have a tiny 20GB drive as standard equipment, really?

Before the 360 was released, I actually thought the idea of an easily removable HDD was great: Take all your data to a friend's house without taking the whole system with you. You could even upgrade to a bigger HDD easily and cheaply when bigger sizes come out (ROFL). Boy how I wish this component was designed ala PS3 now - easily upgradeable but MANDATORY. Its painfully obvious that they twisted this 'feature' into a source for pulling in more peripheral money rather then pushing their brand/services, which they clearly still need to do at this point in allot of markets.

Just think how much more revenue they could be pulling in via their download services if everyone had a HDD and they weren't such a PITA to upgrade? I personally do not download as much content as I could because I refuse to upgrade my original drive. You think a casual gamer with a core system will buy a $10 title or video if they have to pony up for expensive proprietary storage first? Just about everyone and their cat has a small USB drive, why can't we use those for XBL data storage? Even the Wii has -some- built in memory and a SD card port to accommodate virtual console needs.

This is where an enterprising company can clean up with the right product (I'm looking at you Nyko and Pelican). Give me a product where I can use any off the shelf SATA drive for my 360 and I'll give you my money. While your at it, start working on that external HDD for my Wii!!! I can understand Nintendo didn't see the need/cost for a HDD before the Wii became a success, but with WiiWare coming, I don't want to be stuck using SD cards for my backup, or constantly waiting while re-downloading a game I want to play now.

Sorry if I'm repeating anything said earlier in the comments. Takes forever to put together a readable post when things like this tick me off. /Rant off.

TKWarrior

Jaja, I always knew that was going to bite them in the ass.

The lowest common denominator will be almost always the limit.

Herodito

If MS insists on continuing to sell crippled consoles in order to have a cheaper, entry point into the marktet, at least let developers create games that require the hdd.

If your a 'casual' or 'arcade' gamer, then you dont get to play, and probably wouldnt even want to play something like Lost Oddysey, or Mass Effect. Just slap a 'HDD Required' logo promenently on the front of the retail box for these games.

PC games have long had system requirements on the box. Not every PC can play every PC game, it should be the same with the Xbox.

puffa469

@Demaar: The point is that neither Mass Effect nor Lost Odyssey use the HDD, so whether people have them or not doesn't make a difference.

I believe what Luke meant was: if those games used the HDD, maybe the performance would be better. But they can't use it because it's not mandatory on all 360s, and including an optional install or extended cache is probably too complicated/too much of a bother/disapproved by MS/any other reason you can think of.

You could, however, argue that the logic is flawed because nobody knows with absolute certainty that HDD support would solve Mass Effect's problem. It's just very likely that it would help...

me, my yoke + i

Man, this logic is so flawed. Anyone who cares to play Mass Effect or Lost Odyssey is going to be a hardcore gamer... you know, the kind he says has a HDD.

Demaar

@Unquiet Slumbers: Well, that strip is, like, 10 years old! In fact, it's the very first one, but I know what you're getting at.

I'm having a great time with Lost Odyssey. The loading times don't bother me at all. I find that they're very reasonable and anyone that complains about them must be quite an impatient individual. But then again, I have just had the DVD Drive on my 360 replaced (with the BenQ one, I believe) and I wonder if it's possibly made a lot of difference. I hadn't had any crashes or disk-read errors (I got those a LOT with Mass Effect - yet to play it again since my repair) so, like I said earlier, I think varying efficiency in the DVD Drives is a potentially wide-spread issue. I'm only speculating though.

Having said all that, if it were up to me, all 360s would have HDDs to entice developers to take advantage of caching stuff on there. However, I wouldn't want to see a single installing screen. I quite like how subtle (and quickly) it's done on the 360 as it is.

SeriousStu

@Evo: AFAIK Pro is the default version, not Arcade.

ElPadre

Morons.

Tuxy79

@JediMaster: See some of your points I would agree with, but then the scent of fanboyism entered my nostrils and didnt help much. No one's talking about which plays better games. It's about the hardware availability. If you wanna say games still play better on the 360, imagine wanting to play online with your buddies and realize, your arcade model just isnt up to snuff. Yea, it was cheap, Yea u figured "Sweet! I can play some pretty great games for a bargain"..but what alot of games these days are based on, which is online availability and mutliplayer, your Arcade cannot perform. Burnout is one example. I expect there to be more in the years to come as well. Hopefully by then, MSFT will have figured something else out.

Jechticknight

I think the reason Microsoft want to keep the Arcade 360 is to appeal more to the casual gamer market, as the casual market may not care about xbox live or the additional content thats available.

Flare5X

@tei: Things that have made the leap from PC to consoles:

Optical media
LAN Play
Online
External memory (Floppy disks in PCs, memory cards in game consoles)
Industry standard connection ports (USB).
Wi-Fi and Bluetooth for connecting peripherals, companion consoles (PSP->PS3, DS->Wii)
(More?)

I think the only consistent delineation that does (and for that matter, ought to) exist between consoles and PCs is that if you buy a game that says it'll work on a given console, it'll work for the console. That, and a control system that doesn't force you to hunch over a hard surface (though I'm sure that could change in the near future). The HDD has a place in videogames if it can improve the overall experience, which I certainly believe is possible, provided we don't see more 5GB installs on games like Hot Shots Golf.

NameYourCharacter

@Evo: Nope, that like open a ramen shop, where you can enter, even If you don't want to eat something. Maybe because you want to talk with friends that want to eat ramen.

tei

It's funny how MS is pushing for downloadable movies and yet their default machine is the one without Hard drive. Isn't that like opening a ramen shop and not having a bowl to put the ramen in?

Evo

I know what you mean...
As a console gamer I also want the game to run only from Disc.
But with bigger graphics and more content it get's harder for developers to not make use of a HDD.
As long as the install is painless I can't see that it would kill of casuals.
Also casuals tend to not play the games that require a HDD install.
Not because they have to install it but more because these games are more hardcore.

Garo

Yes, we know, you want to provide a cheaper bundle for people who aren't willing to spend over $300 for a console.

The other way to do that, of course, would be to include a 20GB HDD in the cheapest SKU, and make 120GB the standard for Pro and Elite SKUs. Or introduce the rumoured 80GB HDD for Pro bundles and keep the 120GB for the Elite.
But then, what can you expect from a company that sells a 120GB HDD for $180?

By the way... I was wondering about Lost Odyssey: is everyone having problems? I played the Asian version on a PAL Elite and didn't encounter any stability issues. It ran without a hitch (apart from the occasional framerate drop), crash or disk read error.
And frankly, I wasn't too bothered by the load times - probably because I was expecting this kind of loadings.

me, my yoke + i

I must be the only person on earth (besides M$) that thinks the arcade system is a great deal. There's lot's of people that don't need Hard drive and HD cables because they don't care about DLC or demos and they don't own a HD ready TV.

The arcade is very complete, you got a Xbox 360 console and a memory card so you can save games and even sign in to Xbox Live to play online. And all that for 200 euros! (much better deal that the Wii, people give 250 euros for a gamecube, and then complain about the 360 arcade version? Nice one!)

And you always have the choice to upgrade your console, Hard Drives are kinda expensive, but you can find a lot of good deals on ebay.

So why is this such a retarded purchase? There's clearly a segment on the market that doesn't need all the bells and want the lowest price possible. The only thing is that most of the 360 costumers are Hardcore gamer's and that's why the majority of the consoles sold are elites or pro systems. But wait until games like Scene it begin to ship on the 360, and those arcade consoles will be flying of the shelves.

Yes it's a challenge to developers, but games still play better on Xbox 360.

JediMaster

This shit bugs me so much... They recommend that a "gamer" gets a HDD but they offer no performance advantage whatsoever. At least give the option to cache/install some files. Mass Effect would be a much better experience if you could cache some of those textures.

The only person that benefits from a larger HDD is anyone using the video marketplace.

MS needs to come up with some sort of promo or game bundle that includes the 20GB that entices the Core/Arcade owners to pick it up. It still baffles me that the original Xbox had a stock HDD but the newer console doesn't.

I don't know why MS is trying to shoot themselves in the foot...

darkandlong

That could be a good thing for console gamers. Do you guys really want to let dev's install the games on the HD? That is ok for PC gamming, but will kill the casual "just insiert the CD and play".

Is outdated, because with online conexion, people want to buy movies and music, and Microsoft must want to sell movies and music, and has to be stored somewhere (can't be streamed). But for games? with a HD you can get faster level loads, and stuff, but ...that what PC's are for!. Console is about happy gamming, no hassles, not bugs, not patchs (excepcion made for multiplayer games, or huge game stoping bugs), etc..

I think maybe Microsoft has a point here. Maybe more than a point.

tei

I don't understand why MS has not included the ability to copy games from disc to the hd and run them from there. Even if they did an initial check to be sure that the DVD was in the drive and then spun it down. Not only would this speed up loading, but cut down on all the noise from the DVD player.

xboxsab

@Lyrai: Core has been dumped. They have the arcade, which - even though you still don't get a hdd - you at the very least get some sort of memory to save a profile and game data along with 5 XBLA games.

There is still a difference between the Core and the Arcade, even though both don't offer a harddrive.

Sorwah

@Tenzu: Where are those prices for?! I'm not defending the core unit, but those aren't US prices for accessories that I've seen.

nicless

I think I'd rather just see more games take advantage of the stuff being cached onto the HDD. With some games it's very apparent (Dead Rising) and with other games it just doesn't seem to have been utilised at all (as mentioned, Mass Effect).

Not sure what the claim on Lost Odyssey 'instability' is though. I've read reports saying it can take up to 20-25 seconds for it go from random-encounter-effect to actually seeing your own characters on screen. Personally, I've only had to wait as long as 5 seconds but I'm currently on the 2nd disc so maybe I'll come up to something worse later. The loading in that game wouldn't be so apparent if it didn't display "LOADING" in the corner, as it's only there for about 3-4 seconds.

Perhaps there's a bigger issue out there with dodgy DVD Drives?

SeriousStu

I can understand a very casual gamer using a console without a HDD, I only know one guy who does it tho.

I upgraded to the 120GB because I have over 80GB of video content I download but if it wasn't for the VM i'd be perfectly fine with 20GB (13GB).

They say it all comes down to choice, but I don't think many consumers, who aren't considered "hardcore," will understand what they get or are missing.

Collapse The Control

They'll never kill it. They want to advertise that they're cheaper than Sony, and have a unit on par with the Wii. All they want is that bullet point. Quality of games will come second to advertising.

PapaBear434

Ofcause they are looking into making game with HDD install as an option, if not making a framework for it then looking into making how the thing should work.

But they will never say so unless it is a dead given that now it is time that it will be pushed to the system.

ztilleto

What else did you expect them to say I mean they love the idea of the Arcade packs and I'm sure they aren't particularly worried about how it will effect games by not having a standard HDD. It's the developers problems not theirs and that's the way they like it as far as I can tell.

Jabjabs

My guess is that parents that don't know sh*t about videogames purchased the cheaper 360 which in return pissed their little kids off cause there is no hard drive and many other wonderful features that the 20 or elite have, lol...

Yeah 279 for Arcade, 120 for 20gb HD, 70 + for each controller... total savings .... none... you're now negative.. you lost money on that deal.

Tenzu

Ugh. Someone should start a nonprofit aimed at redistributing unused 20GB hard drives to people who were foolish enough to buy the core/arcade units. I bet the number of people who either bought a larger hard drive separately or owned a pro, then bought an elite is about equal to the number of people who've bought hard driveless systems.

As an Xbox 360 owner, I find the gimped storage thing maddening. It's nice that the hard drive is removable, but that shouldn't have been an excuse to sell consoles with no hard drives, or to charge obscene prices (that have yet to come down) for the hard drives by themselves.

Dirk Dorkelson

Wait- rational, sane people are still talking about this, expecting MS to eliminate the Arcade/nonHDD sku? This is about that far removed from the inane upgraded elite w/internal HD-DVD player talk.

Madeira

Kill of the HDD less 360 and be done with it. Make games use the HDD from now on.

Bumbuliuz

I currently have no 360, but I do want one. I'm buying the Pro or Elite, though. Core is utterly worthless.

C'mon, MS. Dump Core.

Lyrai

Developers should just optionally program something to detect an available HD so that people who do have it get the benefits. Also then again, wait for the sales to reflect negatively when the PS3 starts to have an advantage this way, then with some sensibility (hopefully) Microsoft will push for HD consoles and remove the Arcade SKU.

Suigyoken

lame. money.money.money.money..........MOOOOONNNNEEEEYYY!
(please picture the o jay's tune "for the love of money" playing in the background)

jfx316

Seems like the bottom line line is providing a cheap way to ge the 360 out there. It really doesn't seem like a big deal since most gamers know that the HDDs are pretty much required. Still though, those people who just want to play a little should be allowed to play on a comparative cost.

Timsobuff74

Perhaps they sold out because it was even harder to find an Elite or pro on the shelves and this was all that was left. The 20gb hard just can't be that expensive - add them to the arcade -

Limafoxtrot

and devs say its too difficult to make HDD optional games too, right?

Deusfaux

bigger problem is artificially inflated prices for HHDs
they can't cut prices soon enough

jdubble

Oh...and where is the other guys hand in that pik????

Bearskopff

If they bought the price of the Premium down to a more competitive level along side the Wii then that would have been a wise decision. I don't know anyone that bought one without a HDD. Surely they can't be selling that many of them???

Bearskopff