@snowlock: How is that a class action law suit?? THIRD PARTY PUBLISHERS have the right to make games that require an HD if they choose to do so. You can make an argument for a law suit if MICROSOFT told publishers that they can ONLY produce games that require a HD.

Mr.SithNinja

it's obviously foolish to buy the least expensive version of a console.
especially when that's all you can afford.
if you can't play online, download live arcade titles,
play videos and music then there's no reason to play the games.

unless you don't have broadband internet,
and/or can't afford live gold membership,
and/or only care about playing the games offline.

once again, the only mistake would be microsoft allowing
"hdd required" games to be produced.
that's a guaranteed class-action lawsuit.

snowlock

@foolalex: No, food, water and shelter are necessities. Buying a core is stupidity no matter what income level you are at.

Mr.SithNinja

hello, i have no money.
yet still i am am able to own an xbox because of the core. which is awesome because it has led me play bioshock and other amazing games(something my computer couldn't pull off)
buying an xbox core isn't stupidity for poor folks like me, its a necessity.

foolalex

What about those people with an HDD but little to no free space? Either we got to delete stuff or have the no HDD option which pretty much nullifies the argument. Yes, I have 20GB drive.

fleshribbon

I just realized something. 90% of you have no idea what you are talking about. The reason PS3 has installs is because the Blu Ray, while holding tons more data, can't transfer data fast enough to keep up with the 12X load times of the 360's DVD drive. Don't you guys ever actually read the articles posted here?

ajm1240

Microsoft has screwed up so bad with having a SKU without a HDD. They've fractured their userbase so badly that gamers without one are now having a mediocre and incomplete experience without on. Just look at Burnout: Paradise. Rather than splitting the userbase even further, the game takes a hardline and requires the HDD and it's a better game for it.

Can you imagine what kind of game GTA IV would be if there was no HDD? Never mind the fact there would be no extended DLC, the game wouldn't even be able to get out of a single neighborhood in Liberty City without it.

And having that stupid 150MB cap on XBLA so Core or Arcade can play games without a hard drive is retarded. The games end up being gimped anyway, like Castlevania: SoTN, Street Fighter II Hyper Fighting, and now the upcoming Bionic Commando: ReArmed.

PS3, despite a myriad of problems, will never face a userbase as fractured as the 360.

jinpei05

It's not necessary to install games on the HDD. Developers could use the HDD to pre-cache the next level/section, so that when you reach it - there is no loading screen. It's already being done in some PS3 games.

somarix

It's pretty fucking simple.......make a game with HDD requirements, then print on the box "HDD Required" !!!! Duh!

For the core owners, well, that's what you get for buying a core model!

Acute Gamer

Obviously devs are not players... they make one game but theirs isn't the only one you own, we'll talk about HDD when your 10 PS3 games will be installed with a mandatory 6GB install: buy another HDD ? sure, but i rather buy other games, 2"1/2 HDD arent that cheap these days...
Oh yeah, you could uninstall it... and wait 20 mins again or struggle with other installs to launch a soulcalibur IV with your friends ? no thanks.

What MS done is rather smart in fact, by letting the possibility to equip your console with a HDD, but preventing games devs from using the HDD.
One of the aspects that made the difference between PC and Console was something called 'instant play'.

Makoto

@whitecarrot:

If you got Uncharted as you say, then you know full well that load times can be bypassed on the PS3.

Koztah

What, Bourne Conspiracy is PS3 exclusive? What what? I must have totally missed that if it's true.

Candlejack

No hard drive for the Arcade 360 was a huge mistake for the simple fact that how are you supposed to DL MORE XBLA games with no flippin HD???

@whitecarrot: The ps3 installs have nothing to do with memory. It is about lazy devs who want to make the 360 version work on the ps3 platform with as little effort or dev time as possible. In case you hadn't noticed, when a game is on both the 360 AND PS3, the PS3 version is nothing more than a port of the 360 version. They do this to save time and money from having to have devs actualy learn how to program for the PS3. This is why you get short cuts and mandatory installs. Quicker load times with out installs will come when the devs take the time to figure out the system archetecture.

Mr.SithNinja

Its not a mistake its a feature ... I would be extremely pissed off if all my games required an installation.

brent_w

Well maybe if sony had a faster drive and more memory in the ps3 they wouldnt need to install onto the hard drive. What I mean is look at MGS4. The developer says hes out of space. I have heard that one before from RFOM. When really they were only out of space because they needed a 18 gig buffer file on the disc so it would load quicker. I remember the first time I played motorstorm the selecting of the vehicles sucked because it was so slow for the machine to load the next vehicle. You all know what Im talking about. Hell it was one of the reasons why I sold my first ps3. . Ended up buying one again for Uncharted. Maybe more memory would have solved the slow loading time. 256mb just isnt enough. And yes i think it was a mistake for microsoft to release the arcade with no hard drive. I think everyone should have the chance to download the extras for the games. I just dont wanna have to worry about hard drive space on my machines. Thats pretty much why i stoped pc gaming

whitecarrot

I thought we were all against the idea of the "short install time"?

brandonf

Ballmer's fault. He pressured the 360 dev team to dump the mandatory hard drive to save money. Anyone with the least bit of knowledge about the game industry knew that that decision would come back to haunt them, and it looks like that is beginning to happen now.

KaneRobot

I dont know. Not having a HD, make dev's avoid installs, but installs is a bad thing for consoles. So you can choise your poison.

tei

@cowboyman: GO on ebay and get a effing harddrive and stop being a whinny bee-otch... is what I would like to say but clearly people don't see much value in upgrading. I hope the arcade sku is still around for a long time with a continued lowering of price. What I would like to see from Microsoft how ever is a relaxation of the download size requirement and a significant drop in price of all storage products. This foolish talk about idiots buy the tard pack is on perpetuated by ill informed individuals who like to shoot off at the mouth like they have some kind of understanding about what consumers really want.

okenny :)

Yes, the core was a Mistake on Microsoft part. Not having the Hard Drive standard in all 360's was a huge step back compared to the first Xbox.

Also for people saying the 360 having caching. Well yes it does have system caching for games, but it nowhere as good as the Xbox dedicated cache. Anybody who modded there xbox know that the xbox had three extra drives on the HDD, "X, Y, and Z." These three drive were use only caching and installing of games data. Games like Doom 3 and Black would "install" data on these drives to cache sound files, improve load times, and reduce texture pop up. Those are the only two games I know that do that, but there should be others that do it too.

DarkMan08

@Captain Impulse: oops. sorry, got a bit out of topic.

Anyway, I owned an arcade and it was a mistake (I should have gotten a premium). In as much as I understand people who would opt to buy arcade/core, MS should have standardized HDD and ignored 'budget' buyers (like me).

cowboyman

@Harteex: don't get me wrong, Im not saying that waiting for stuff to install is not annoying. Heck, waiting 30 mins to try a game for 10 would definitely be bad.

However, that's not enough to bash mandatory installs, more so call it stupid. You can't use one game (DMC4) to judge the whole process. Tons of other PS3 games have mandatory installs, most of which have got 5mins to install tops.

Look at Oblivion ps3. It installs 4GB worth of data on the HDD without the player even realizing it. And what did we get in return? A much higher texture resolution and faster loading.

cowboyman

@cowboyman: If you've read any of the articles here at Kotaku concerning the PS3's mandatory installs, you'd know that that's been the argument here (for some) since the beginning.

Captain Impulse

The hard drive needs to be removable so Microsoft can sell you an upgrade to store all your downloads, including HD movies they sell, and maybe the audio files you rip to it. Frittering away the hard drive with big game install files means less space for more lucrative cartoons and TV re-runs. If you just want a system for just playing games off-line, then you aren't the kind of customer Microsoft is looking for, or at least they weren't before the Wii launched.

Knukleur

Yup, it was a mistake.

Tuxy79

@Harteex: Well at least the Arcade has a memroy card to save game progress included. The old Core was the big ripoff, because you had to buy a 64MB memory card that cost almost half what a 20gig HDD. To me, that is what made the Core so bad.

ajm1240

Lack of a HDD a mistake? Nesxt you'll be telling me the sky is blue! Or that that Sun will rise in the East!

The reason MS was made the Core/Arcade was the dumbest reason of all. So they could have a SKU that they could SAY was $100 cheaper than the then "Premium," which was going for a then considered astonomical sum of $400. It was a big mistake, but by far not the biggest MS has made on the hardware side.

ajm1240

@cowboyman: Lets say a friend comes over with a game you want to try. You would not want to sit and wait for half an hour just to try it.
But maybe you just bought a game you expect to play a lot onwards, then you might want to install.

Sometimes you want to install, sometimes not.
Mandatory installs are stupid imo.

It's a shame all Xbox360 doesn't have a harddrive. If all had one, the developers might use caching better.
Although, for some people there is no need for a harddrive. A friend of mine really doesn't care about online and arcade games, he just plays normal disc games every now and then. He has a core and he doesn't need anything more.

Harteex

@Captain Impulse: I don't get that. You don't mind installs, but hate the mandatory ones? So basically, you like installing only if you could choose NOT to do it. In other words, you like 'the concept of installing'. hm.

Yes, cause that's what xbox needs more of: choices. /sarcasm

cowboyman

While I do agree that all 360 Games should use the HDD....i do like having the option of the CORE/ARCADE Pack.

If you are buying a 2nd machine for the office or one you want to take on vacation with you....its a great option.

I move my HDD amongst a # of machines and when I upgraded to an elite it took the extra HDD, HD Cables and gave them to my sister with an ARCADE Pack....

Not only did that allow her to get a fully functional 360....it saved me money.

GoonieGooGoo

@cowboyman: We hate installs? No.
We hate mandatory installs? Yes.

Big difference.

Captain Impulse

hehe.. I like it that xbox owners don't mind disc swapping but absolutely hate an initial install.

I'd take the install anytime, at least it doesn't disrupt me in the middle of the game.

cowboyman

While I agree that not including a HDD in the 360 was silly, when did developers lose their balls? Just stick a tag on the front of the box that says "Hard Drive Required".

Am I the only one that remembers the N64 expansion pack? Or the Sega CD? The 32X? The Powerglove, Zapper, Track and Field Pad, and all the other peripherals throughout the years you had to have to play various games?

Hmm. Then again, all of those items were massive monetary failures (fun as they were). So that's probably the answer to my own question there.

But I just can't believe someone who's willing to throw down $60 for a brand new game wouldn't pony up $100 for a hard drive. And if you're worrying about the people that are that cheap... well, they're buying your games used, and you aren't making money anyway.

Insomnia Bob

Going from the original XBox, with a built-in HDD, to the 360 was a dumb idea. Almost a step backwards, but didn't we beat this horse years ago when it was announced?

Dhighness

Personally Im very happy that they didnt offer it in the core. You see, I really really hate install times. So much so that I now buy all my multiplat games on the 360 even if their better on the PS3. Simply because the installs piss me off. I dont want to have to install anything to play a game, I dont care how trivial it is. From PSN games, to firmware updates, to DLC, to preloading titles the PS3 has made me wait for so many damn things and eaten up so much space that my tiny 20GB is now full. I buy consoles to avoid the PC installs, if a console goes strictly to installs than I just quit gaming after 20 years and do what most japanese here seem to be doing, play cell phone games.

RuneX

Howsabout developers stop moaning and start being flexible. I'm sure that people capable of writing a modern game are capable of detecting the presence of a HDD. If it's there use it, if it isn't don't.

Sure the PS3 has a mandatory HDD and installs, didn't help The Orange Box though did it!?

Xebu

We have this problem in our education game lab. Someone decided to buy next generation systems but our 360 is sans HDD. We have 1 title so far, Oblivion but from what I hear it is pretty hard to progress without an HDD. Ah, where is that magical to purchase list that has to go through bureaucracy for us to get our requested hardware and software?

orangewarp

@Moonshadow101: Top story of the day! The Sun is bright.

ManjiKengo

at the gamestop i manage, we all but refuse to sell the arcade. if someone wants one we do all we can to convince them to get the premium or the elite. sometimes people accuse us of trying to get commission, but once we explain that we don't get commission, they usually (thankfully) see reason. it's pretty obvious to me: 280 for the arcade + 70-100 bucks for the HDD = same or more than the pro. stupid stupid stupid arcade.

SoulPunch

I admit I am saying alot of this from a outsider view with only a ps3 as a next gen system but these kind of effects on games and the red rings makes me pretty hesitant to go with the 360.

artraider

They made more than one mistake with the HDD on the 360.

First off the whole removable aspect which was originally supposed to let you take your HDD to a friends house, which of course is pretty useless since your friend probably has his HDD plugged into his 360. Turns out all it is really good for is so you can hold onto it while you send your console in for servicing.

Second was the use of slow 2.5 inch HDD's instead of faster, more dependable, and way cheaper 3.5 inch drives.

So they claim they made the Core/Arcade system to give gamers a cheaper option, but they could have easily included a non-removable 3.5 inch HDD standard without effecting the base price by that much. Especially if they used 5400 RPM 20 gigs HDDs. And then they could have included 120 gig units in the Premium bundles from the beginning.

Anyway why all the hate for the Core/Arcade SKU's? They are awesome as Red Ring Replacement Units.

RykinPoe

Microsoft really needs to reverse their policy on not allowing some games to require HDDs.

First, the number of 360's without HDDs sold has to be significantly lower than the other models. Also, most of those gamers have probably realized the inconvenience of not having the HDD and bought one anyway.

Second, it's not the first time M$oft has released a product that required hardware it was not bundled with. Steel Battalion sequel, anyone? Just make sure you put the appropriate label on the front cover, and gamers would have no one to blame but themselves.

Third, wouldn't requiring a HDD force some gamers to buy a HDD for the system? Is Microsoft allergic to increasing sales of their add-on hardware?

Seems like this is a situation that could be easily remedied. Yeah, some people are not going to be happy...but when are gamers ever truly happy (besides when playing Super Mario Galaxy)?

Captain Impulse

The core systems are all but useless unless you're like me and bought one after my premium system red ringed.

Since I already had a HDD it made more sense to go with the core instead of another premium.

TJAMATO

Blame in on parents who want to get the cheapest possible 360 without knowing the difference.

exkon

games keep pushing boundries and you can have more of a experiance and todays consoles are just acomidating to the changes.

artraider

@interstate78: What exactly do you mean by "console-like"? You mean not using a HD? I think that ironically, the 360 would then be less console-like because it has a version that is markedly different in terms of hardware, and the general idea behind consoles is to have everybody with the exact same hardware, making the end-user experience the same for everybody and allowing developers to make games without worrying about issues like variable hardware configurations, allowing them to optimize the experience to boot.

Chef

kotaku, its not 2005 anymore guys. we have known that they have made a mistake for not making the hdd standard for a good three years now.

Dimipapa

ON THE OTHER HAND, PS3's already got 2 games with a 5 gigs install. I don't know much about the second but DMC4 is not mandatory, it's obligatory. With a 40 gig hard drive that's not even 8 games.

I think I'd rather have my games Console-like for a while longer.

The main reason why I love consoles is its ease of use: no DRMs, no installs, no whatnots that leave more room for the dreaded PC-like patching.

interstate78

the no hdd systems are obviously a good idea.
i don't see where this author gets his info;
cheaper consoles sell better.

another thing, it's not the buyer's problem they don't have hdd,
so there will never be any 360 game that requires install.
the only exceptions are, obviously, online titles,
which core/arcade buyers don't play.
people with too little cash to buy upgrade consoles
will obviously not pay for what others already get free (online play.)

snowlock

But.. but.. but.. it's all about having "choices" in buying 360, right? (sarcasm)

HobbaHobba

@Abel: I totally agree. The hard drive is a crutch for some developers. Take a look at Grand Theft Auto 3 for the PS2 - no load times whatsoever, you can cross from one end to the other without a lengthy load time.

noelix

I know why the Core/Arcade system is a good idea - it allows you to replace your 360 more cheaply when your 360 dies out of warranty. (they only get 1 year over here)

I don't think it's fair to say that developers have free rein to use the HD as they would with the PS3 because due to the fact that Microsoft puts out and promotes Core/Arcade systems in the first place, the actual install base is already varied in that respect. Therefore, if you say "this game requires a HD", you're alienating a portion of potential customers because of Microsoft's decision.

Chef

I kind of think the Arcade aren't all that stupid. Us Pro buyers are. I paid, what, an extra $100 for a 20gb HDD? (I bought when they were $300 and $400) Now, if I want to upgrade to the 120gb, I basically threw that $100 away.

Suppose you want a 360 with 120 gigs today:

[You can find 120gb HDDs NIB on eBay for $130.00]

Your options:

Elite = $450.00

Pro = $350.00 + $130.00 (120 gb hdd) = $480.00

Arcade = $280.00 + $130.00 = $410.00

Even if the Pro user sells their old 20gb HDD on ebay for $40.00, (probably to an Arcade purchaser) the Pro user is coming out behind the Arcade purchaser by $30.00.

And the Arcade purchase that bought your 20gb for $40.00 just made themselves a virtual Pro for only $320.00.

This seems especially true now that all SKUs have wireless controllers and HDMI ports standard.

Ess

Developers benefit from hard drives by having the ability to create incomplete games and "patching" them at their leisure. Such a plague has all but made the PC gaming market worthless. Make no mistake, consoles are headed in the same direction.

dle

@Arttemis:

What server are you on?

~

Hiroken

@Sailorcancer: I prefer wired controllers for a few reasons. One, no worries about your controller dying while fighting an enemy. Secondly, no need to buy spare batteries/chargeable battery and something to recharge it (plug & play or that duel charging dock).

MrMcdoobie: I don't do drugs

@DannoHung:

SSD FTW.

Sailorcancer

The core was just retarded. $299 sounds cheap, but when you add in $100 for the HDD, $50 for the Wireless controller, and $40 for the Component cables. We're already at $190 and we still haven't added stuff like the headset, and Eternet cable. You're spending over $200 just to get it to the pro level, when you could just spend $100 more and get all the stuff.

The big thing is the no HDD, that's like SO last gen. That and wired controllers.

Sailorcancer

@NiGHTSSTUDiO: There would have been piracy on games on the Xbox1 with or without the included HD (you can run anything off a burnt CD/DVD that you can via HD). The PS3 remains the last system to be cracked to play backups... I can't believe with even allowing installations of other OSes that this has not happened. Of course it wouldn't of happened on the 360 either if they didn't find an exploit in the firmware of the DVD drive.

DeeBG

I think that the whole multi-sku thing has been a bit of a mistake for both Sony and Microsoft.

I'll wager that for the next generation, everyone'll be back to one sku... and also, every console, Ninty system included will have a Hard Drive...

Maybe a BD too, though I think we'll have to wait on hard drive pricing for whenever the next generation comes out.

DannoHung

They are not bad time wise but if something can be done about them from developers why not do it?

artraider

Stop bitching about load times. Chances are you've stayed in line at the DMV for five fucking torterous hours, you can sit down and look at a damn load bar for 10 seconds.

MrMcdoobie: I don't do drugs

I was able to get a hold of a new HDD for $20. So getting the Arcade 360 was a good choice. I had essentially a premium package for less money plus some arcade games. I just wish the arcade games didn't have to be read off of the disc and instead could be installed on the HDD.

Superman64

@artraider: If there were an ability to cache or install all of the major textures and environments, Mass Effect would definitely have benefited from less pop-ins and shorter elevator rides throughout the game.

Arttemis

@okenny :): "50 GB! FIFTY GIGABYTES!! 50x10^Fuck-ton-of-bits power. He squandered it all!! ALL OF IT! Kojima with 50 GBs is like a bad gambler who just won the mega jackpot... you know he's gonna blow it all and come back saying it wasn't enough!"

I think everybody is kinda blowing that whole situation out of proportion. He didn't say that the game would be lacking or that he couldn't complete it. He just said that he wishes that there were more space.
I think he is just one of those perfectionist who hates to compress and I'm pretty sure he knows what he is doing.

VishusBurn

@okenny :): That's like complaining because an artist filled a painting that covers an entire wall. Why was BD put in the PS3 in the first place? Yes, yes, I know to win the format war... But why were games allowed to be made on BD? So devs could take advantage of them. Just like the HDD was put so devs could take advantage of them. If the game is not all audio, I will actually be very satisfied to hear my PS3 scream from all the data it has to read, and I'm actually waiting for the inevitable MGS sequel (or prequel) to fill the 200 GB BD in 2 years.

slomo788

@mescalineeyes: Microsoft will allow any game to create save files on "storage devices" such as a memory card or hard drive. These are very small files that rarely go above a megabyte in size.

Since Microsoft released systems without a hard drive, they refuse to allow any games to access or store any files for caching or installation purposes. That being said, there was a decision months ago to allow MMOs to use the HD, but this hasn't been utilized by any game as of yet, even FFXI on the 360.

I believe the only game that has required a HD was Burnout Revenge, and that was only for the online component.

Arttemis

I could be wrong but would the system being all for HDD's on all systems help out mass effect and lost odyssey on alot of fronts? Or would it have not gave developers not much of a edge.

artraider

@mescalineeyes: No, that's wrong... Oblivion, for instance, used the HD to cache extensively... it was however a poor implementation on Bethesda's part that lead to some crashes though it was real easy to reset. I hope the lessons they learned will lead to better Fallout load performance using Gamebro.

okenny :)

@Arttemis: good point. they should have done that.
Maybe they wanted to differentiate the 299 and 399 model? not sure, but its coming back to haunt them even if their marketing strategy help them push a bunch of machines.

TT

I own an Arcade. I got sick of my Pro dying, and wanted the new cooler chipset with HDMI.

Other than people who already have cables, controllers, and hard drives; I don't know who buys an arcade.

Lou3000

@Netnavi: you are happy doing that? Just forking over 280$ for another 360 because the first one you got RRODed? I guess you are joking :)

TT

@slomo788: 50 GB! FIFTY GIGABYTES!! 50x10^Fuck-ton-of-bits power. He squandered it all!! ALL OF IT! Kojima with 50 GBs is like a bad gambler who just won the mega jackpot... you know he's gonna blow it all and come back saying it wasn't enough! Sorry, back on topic. He is a perfect example of why people just shouldn't have free rein to do as they will on a platform.

The 360 works because standards are in place and things are implemented uniformly. I think things like the download limit should be increased too; MS has increased it once and I think they'll do it again. Maybe things will fall down in price enough that we might see cheaper drives and the standard being lifted but I'm fine with things as they are now and I think this guy underestimates the preference of the consumer.

okenny :)

@TT: Do you really not think a small, upgradeable, cheap hard drive would have been possible for a very slight increase in price at launch? Hell, even a 5GB hard drive would be infinitely better than NONE - at least every game would be able to set aside a couple hundred megs for caching, and arcade games wouldn't be restricted to a ludicrously small footprint which -causes- -gimping-.

Your reasoning (and Microsoft's) for that is having its effects on ALL360s to this day with no sign of change in sight.

Yes, I'd call that a mistake.

Arttemis

Actually Core systems are good for when your stsem red rings on you and you need anew one. You already have the drive. Why spend an extra 100 bucks. Do you really need a shiny disc tray?

This is what I might end up doing eventually. I still have an extra drive from my other 360.

Netnavi

The arcade units must still bring in a pretty good source of money in some shape or form,would it be possible to re-launch the arcade system with a small hdd just to even it out with the rest of the SKU?

artraider

@Rockwallaby: lol, what ? haha what is that supposed to mean?

Netnavi

@artraider:
Memory cards are still very relevant and every console should have them. I rarely use them, but twice a year I haul a couple of save games to a friends house eight hours away and I love being able to do that.

BigWeather

I question more why they haven't phased out the arcade if they don't move them anyway. That whole thing just doesn't work with the rest of the SKUs. Same thing with the file size limit for arcade games.

scarlet

Given the choice between the situation where we are now where companies can't do installs on the 360 because of the potential lack of HDD vs. the situation the PS3 has where companies can do installs I'd rather be in the 360's position.

In an ideal world games would offer *optional* installs and would always cache regardless where great speed increases could be gained.

However, as we've seen, in the 360 world some games don't do any caching due to the lack of HDD (though many do if it is available) and in the PS3 world some games require mandatory installs. Given that, the 360 is the lesser of the two evils.

I'll take slower loading over mandatory installs every day of the week (and twice on Sunday). Now, I'd love optional installs and caching, and hopefully we'll see that with the 360 and PS3 increasingly.

BigWeather

@Netnavi: go have a cupcake

Rockwallaby

@Arttemis: okay, so someone has to clear this up finally cuz I am too sick to google; are you or are you not allowed to utilitze the 360 harddrive for anything other than save games, what is fair game and what is not?

mescalineeyes

@ProfWho: hmm. makes sense.

Netnavi

I dont think it was a mistake. I think it helped them sell more 360s. I bet many people thought to themselves, "ah, its only $299 I will pick it up" and then end up buying the $399 one. And also 360 was able to market itself as an inexpensive alternative to ps3 and then nickel and dime consumers with HDDVD wireless Live etc.

But so many people bought into it and not until recently realizing ps3 is a way better deal.

TT

Those of use who got the Core 360 were forced into it at launch, like I was. Microsoft, aside from not making a HDD mandatory on all units decided to pollute the market with a majority of Core systems at launch instead of listening to the public which demanded more of the Pro systems from the time they announced the two SKUs.

CFStang

It seams to be a changing time for consoles as memory cards outside of watching media and music for the systems, the memory cards feel like a thing of the past.

artraider

Say what you want about SOny going back on their word about multiple SKUs but at least they got it right in terms of the base hardware required for new games. Hard drive, wireless internet and HDMI output. Microsofts machine has been gimped since the start.

Sollus

i've been saying since it came out that the goddamn HDD-less systems suck ass. it was a fucking stupid idea to attract people who probably wouldn't give a shit either way, and is now negatively affecting those of us who DO care. thanks microsoft.

SoulPunch

@delriego: There's a difference between caching and installing. Both make use of the hard drive, but they do so in completely different ways.

As it stands now, developers aren't allowed to do either by default on any 360 - and that's pretty fucking retarded.

Arttemis

@Raziel3333:
I was going to buy a Core 360 since I only wanted 1 game on the 360 (VF5). At the time I thought, if there were memory cards, and I'm not gonna buy any downloadable content, why should I pay more for a Harddrive.

Since I'm only gonna play one game, and still having to pay for online versus + arcade stick, I wanted my 360 for as cheap as possible.

Who would have known at the time (well, I didn't atleast) that Harddrive will be needed to be enhanced for future games.

Am I the only one that, when hard drive for a console is mentioned, thought it will only be used for game saves and downloaded games? All the other game systems w/o a harddrive at the time had no problems w/ only memory cards, how would I have known... -_-

Dir_en_grey

I'm glad there is an option and I would hate that my console had to install some crap, that's one of the reasons I don't like PC games.

Anyone who says "we can universally agree" is an idiot.

delriego

Any optional install is going to do nothing but improve the experiance smoothness and make it go all the faster, it is just me but by this time I would think we would be past the transitions and loading in Lost Odyssey something that seams akin to Final Fantasy VIII a few generations ago.

artraider

@okenny :): Oh, I do understand this - I just think it's terrible that the "next gen" system had to take a step back from its predecessor in this regard.
I really don't understand how it could be a cost issue when a small hard drive is so incredibly cheap, they could have passed one along with hardly a notch in the price tag.

Arttemis

@okenny :): As it stands now, designers are forced to design all games to comply to any 360 - with an HD or not. Even if the game 'detects' a user's HD and allows the system to cache information while playing, the game's engine will still have to be designed around its limitation for those who don't have one. This is a horrible flaw that is definitely limiting many games in at least one form or another.

- I think that issue is ridiculous, and I wish all games (that would benefit from it) should require a hard drive for at least temporary caching. All of the original Xboxes could.
- Whether or not installs should be implemented is another issue - but I think it should be possible for developers to give gamers this option if they believe it would improve their product.
I don't think there's a game that I own for which I wouldn't pass on an optional install.

Arttemis

People need to shut the fuck up with all this whining about installs. It's not like every single goddam game on the ps3 requires a hard drive install. And on the xbox, I dont remember installing any game on its hard drive. Hard drives are a plus, PERIOD. I mean how much does it really ask of you to take up some disc space to install a game. The whole point is that you're given enough space initially so that installs aren't really a problem. And since installs are rare, using a hard drive to shorten load times is just a no brainer.

Look, the first poster spoke completely out of his ass. Piracy was a problem for sure but Microsoft addressed with going overboard with DRM and making every single accessory on the 360 proprietary as FUCK. Microsoft made a tard pack for one reason and one reason ONLY: money. At a point in time when they were losing money on every system and also stupid enough to price one at 399, they decided to bite the bullet and offer up a meaningless SKU to appease price sensitive gamers into early adoption.

Every PS3, regardless of how gimped it may be in various incarnations, has a hard drive. Going with a slow 2x blu ray drive that promised massive storage was on balance, the right decision. I mean where the hell do people get off cowering at what potential install MGS4 might require? Wait till Kojima actually SAYS something. Microsoft made a much dumber decision than Sony here and developers have clearly spoken. You can only solve so many problems with adding more RAM. Microsoft tried to appease developers by upping the system RAM from 256 to 512 but a mandatory hard drive would have just been so much smarter, in ADDITION to starting out with 120 gig hard drives instead of 20, considering they cost the same to make.

Gagamus

@okenny :): Oh no you didn't just name Kojima-san with the nameless devs of a movie game. Kojima can do whatever he wants with my BD drive personally, I trust him. But really, what does an ambitious game like MGS4 pushing (at least one aspect of) the PS3 hardware to its limits have to do about a team whining for things most people have forgotten about?

slomo788

Doomstink-The installs are usually really fast and you do not have to do something as drastic as uninstall and re-install the diffrent games but I see your point

artraider

@ okenny :): i was just bringing up a senario, as far as i know, gtaiv is one disc

Ahsayuni

@Netnavi: They hide them better (Door opening, cut scenes, etc). There are many third-party games with loading screens, but first party and top third party games usually hide them better. Nintendo in fact didn't move to disc games until the Cube because of load times. Also, as I understand it that is part of the reason for the small game discs on the Cube (less surface area to scan).

ProfWho

@Ahsayuni: Where did you here that :/

okenny :)

I don't really like the idea of mandatory installs. I think requiring an HDD in all 360s would lead to alot of mandatory installs. Being that I've only got a 20GB HDD, I don't have much space for that nonsense, and as a person who likes to put in a game and play it whenever I want, that's no good. I'd have to constantly uninstall and reinstall every game I play, and that my friends, is no good.

Doomstink

@Arttemis: You have to understand that the developers still prefer development on the 360 in spite of this. Yeah so this guy got an opportunity to pull a Micheal Bay... good for him. I just think it sad he failed where so many others have succeeded. BTW, Crackdown... awesome game :)

okenny :)

It's besides the point if people are foolish enough to buy a core/arcade 360. It's the fault of Microsoft that a hard drive is not the 360's standard. If nobody bought them, it wouldn't change the fact that they exist and that developers have to assume the absense of a hard drive.

kunio

You're damned right it was a mistake! The hard drive was one of the key features that separated the original xbox from the pack. I was shocked when they announced the hard drive being optional. Such a silly mistake.

Wolfers

This is a issue that I have thought for along time does affect the 360,it goes past just little things like loading and hurts small parts of a game that do add up and I am glad the ps3 even the cheepest ones have a HDD.

artraider

@ lionkitten:
gtaiv: "please insert disc 2"

you cant do multiple discs with any game type, it ruins the experience.

Ahsayuni

@Arttemis: "rework their entire game" was supposed to read, "create around this setback".

Arttemis

I'm finding it less appealing to get a 360 now.

Sure, I wouldn't protest that it has great games, but I don't want to deal with hardware issues.

gec05

So what's the deal with Nintendo? Games on thier systems barely have any loding screens at all. Even with a big game like Res Evil 4 there was barely any loading at all. At least I don't remember any loading screens.

Really when was the last time you've actually waited to load the game on a Ninty console. Yet they don't have to have install and cache things to a hard drive. Is it the way the console reads the game? Is it more efficiant? I know it's not because of the graphics because Mario Galaxy had zero loading screens that I can remember.

If Nintendo can do this with games then why can't the other two?

*Not being baitish* I really want to know. Does it have to do with how each console is made and how it reads the media?

Netnavi

Many competent developers have worked around this issue without fuss and a few of them have cried and bitched and still released a competent game. Fuck heads like Kojima given free rein would do shit to your hard drive like he did with the bluray disc. What I don't understand is the inability for many of these developers to use the cashing abilities of the 360 for systems with HD like many games have done since that is still an elective process. Instead, they are demanding to get realestate on your hardware. I remember how angry I get when a PC game takes up 7 GB of space. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now. There are alternatives not being realized here and even though Microsoft probably has the best technology to make hard drive installs worth it (InstantPlay I think it's called: a tech that lets you play as the game installs), I don't want to part with my precious space. I own 8 360 games and play about 5 of those frequently... I don't want to give up 25 to 30 GB of disk space for convenience of shaving of 3 seconds of loading fro a 15 second loading time. I think it would be nice for MS to relax the options but when I think about how willing the developers are willing to abuse that option, it pisses me off. I love the fact that they have to fight for the temporary space on the 360 :p .... those bastards! <3

okenny :)

First, 360 games can't be designed to automatically cache on all systems so developers have to rework their entire game, (very) potentially limiting the content because of what's no longer possible with gameplay/graphics.
Seriously, a hard drive used for at least caching in conjunction with disc loading is an amazing feature that has to be overlooked on the 360 when it was possible on all original Xboxes.

Then, owners are faced with things such as Xbox 360 specific limitations to more than one title. The fact that this lack-of-hard drive constraint is causing issues for certain XBL-Arcade games is yet another atrocious side effect to Microsoft's 'brilliant' decision.

Arttemis

If I wanted to bother with installing a game I'd just buy the PC version. The whole point of a console is pick-up-and-play. You shouldn't *need* a hard-drive.

cybereality

@mescalineeyes: word.LOL.fighting about trivial game facts is fun :)

DiSTiNCT

@DiSTiNCT: You're right, I should check my sources, that's why I said "I believe" and not "I am 100% sure", but thanks, I'll look around.

mescalineeyes

Well, but the blu-ray drive runs slower, hence the installs. I have both PS3 and 360 and really feel no difference when playing, with the possible exception of Mass Effect elevators being long loads. We're just gonna see more hard drive required games like Burnout is for online. It'll happen whenever there's a multiplatform game that MS thinks is worth taking the risk on - not the biggies like GTA (MS will pressure them and they will do it at this point because of the software sales numbers).

I just don't see the problem. Same goes with multidisc games like the big JRPGs like Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey. Who cares if you have to swap once every 10 hours? Like MGS4 could just go two discs and include the Japanese track. Does it matter if you have to swap once in all the hours you play a long campaign/story?

I think this item is overrated.

lionkitten

actu@mescalineeyes: actually no they're not. They said developers can do what they want. As far as their own game division goes, they're making them have the games run off the discs. Check your sources.

DiSTiNCT

@Jopan: I have UT3. It explicitly asks if you want to install. And really it's not that big of a deal. Just erase it when you are done with the game, or don't install it and watch the loading screen for a few more seconds. Besides, PS3 offers the choice to put your own notebook HDD. But again, I don't see why everyone is taking this seriously. Just another dev hiding behind consoles' flaws to excuse a mediocre game. Funny how real devs that put out real games PRAISE consoles instead of bashing whatever is wrong with them.

slomo788

@DiSTiNCT: Actually, yes, I believe Microsoft is stopping you.

mescalineeyes

Thee game installs better not be mandatory for every PS3 game. Shit, I'm a 20GB owner lol i gotta upgrade hdd. I wish they're more like resistance. like 200mb.hell, splinter cell da, a crap port with long load times has 800mb install. there are a lot of games on ps3 that require installs, but they're usually mb, not like capcom games that are gb. im fine with installs as long as they're not that much like capcom makes them.

Albanian_Killa

@VishusBurn: I don't if you spent $300+ on it without bothering to quick look up some info on it you deserve to get burned.

ProfWho

Really i think the core/arcade is nothing more than a marketing ploy that allows msoft to tout a much lower price point than the ps3. I think we can all agree to that.

snakepliskin

@Kyle81: To top it off, the only MMO out there on the 360 now (Final Fantasy XI) doesn't actually do anything with the disc once it precaches everything to the cache volume on the HDD, and yet it spins it MERCILESSLY the ENTIRE TIME.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to send my 360 back in a second time to get the DVD drive replaced if FFXI wears the DVD drive out for no goddamned reason...

Cutriss

@Abel: Don't know if that changes anything but the PS3 is not advertised as a game console. It's a "supercomputer." ;)

slomo788

@Kyle81: Yeah they don't install, But i look look at my game data file and boom theres 15gb taken up from various games. More like a cache of the games. 3gb alone from UT3. I dont even remember seeing it install so idk.

I just don't get why everyone is whining about installing a game onto a console if it give greater benefits. Wow i waitng 20 minutes to install a game i waited 5 months to come out...

Jopan

The gaming press & so-called hard-core gamers got to get their heads out of their @$$'s. There has yet to be a game yet that loads to the HDD that can actually perform substantionally better than it just running off the disc. Oooo a 1 sec increase in load times, but at the cost of 5gbs a game. Burnout Paradise is the only game so far that requires the HDD in order to access the online portion of the game. Are they losing part of their audience? Not likely. I seriously doubt many of the people who buy the Core/Arcade versions on even on LIVE. That's not the demographic those units are aimed towards. They're for younger gamers/familys & people who don't want to be called Fags while playing Halo 3. Bedsides, if one did 'feel' screwed by not having an HDD then they can buy one for $99. Which guess what?! Makes their total purchase the exact same price as the Pro version! Holy Crap, math is ama-za-zing!
Game developers out there can quit complaining as well, if you want to develope your game so it requires the HDD, then do it. Nobody is stopping you. And I seriously doubt that the Bourne game is maxing out systems. So the guy that this article is about is talking out of his ass.

DiSTiNCT

@Kyle81: I realize that. Not going to get into my age (old) or gaming background (a lot). My point is really, if you are going to program for a console, don't complain when it behaves like a console. Also, to the effect that I think the load time's issue for some reason has become a big deal again (didn't we deal with this with the PS1 and N64) and I am not so sure it really is a big deal.

Abel

Well, no crying over spilled milk, right?

KeroseneClimax

Yeah yeah, and next week, let them say that PS3 should not have had BD because it's slow, or that Cell is too hard to code for. The game is crappy guys, just work on it or shut the fuck up and watch it flop. Many devs have shown that quality titles can be made on both systems despite these flaws. Me, I'm not comparing the 360 and PS3 by their worst games anymore but by their best games, and I love that everytime it seems like one has the upper hand, the other one shows a secret weapon. It's a good time to be a gamer, and if my wallet only allows me to get an Arcade (when MS decides to fix the box), hell I'll get an Arcade! Bourne Conspiracy is certainly not the game that will make me change my mind.

slomo788

The thing is Xbox 360 games already detect for the presence of an HD and automatically cache data to a reserved portion of the HD if it is found.

I like the way it's done on Xbox.

UnnDunn

@Moonshadow101:
I'd say that comment would get you in trouble, but it was pretty funny.

@KirbyMorph:
Guess what a mandatory HDD would also allow. A working version of Mass Effect. I don't think installs should be over 5 gigs, ever, but I don't give a shit about install time. I'll wait 30 minutes if that means all the textures pop up correctly and the load times are cut in half.

gamadaya

@leoPirate: I completely agree - the N64 had games that required the additional memory expansion pack. Hell, even some games came packaged with it such as the original Rogue Squadron and (I believe) Donkey Kong 64.

Arttemis

I think this was the "Sega" mentality the Moore brought in. You know the whole add on this and that to your system that plagued the Genesis. There was no reason to make a 360 without an HDD , but the geniuses at Microsoft went ahead with this abomination that is the Core/Arcade.

CenatorC

@Netnavi: I agree, although I can't say Im glad it's not happening on the 360.

Even without the HDD standard, can't they have the option present for those who do have one. And even then as an option if you want to install a few GB's of game data or not. I guess then the developers have to split the game into 2 though, and optimize it for both HDD and non-HDD.

Honestly though, I wish more games would just start the require a HDD. Burnout Paradise does for online. Those who don't have an HDD and want to play the games that require it, they'll have to buy one. Which wouldn't even be an issue if they where reasonably priced.

method47

@Kyle81: Well I actually only own 4 games and they all needed a quick install.

Warhawk, Heavenly sword, Ratchet and Resistance.

Not a long one mind you but I have a feeling it's becoming a trend for PS3. Has to be because of the slow speed of the BD drive.

Netnavi

Yet another misinformed developer...

You CAN use the 360 hard drive as a cache, a lot of games do this already. Sure, your game still has to run for people who don't have hard drives, but for those who DO have a hard drive, you can very much take advantage of it.

darthmole12

@leoPirate: Microsoft doesn't allow that except in rare cases (eg. MMORPGs).

UnnDunn

@leoPirate: I think it is easier then that. The game just reads to see if there is a HDD and ask if you want to install a small file to improve load time. If it doesnt see one, it doesnt ask. Didn't Oblivion do this? Minus the asking. Then no one is left out.

Abel

Yeah, this is a ridiculous shortcoming that only creates headaches for developers and compromises in development for virtually every game on the system.
So many horrible decisions made in regard to this system... especially this step back from all original Xboxes.

Arttemis

@leoPirate: Microsoft does not allow that, that is the problem. A hard drive can only be required for MMO type games on the 360. It's a stupid rule that is limiting potential game development on the console.... games could be even better if MS would lift the stupid rule.

Kyle81

We just got an arcade system because we managed to have an extra 120gb HD. In truth, we'd never buy a non-HD 360 for any other reason. Having two 360s both with 120gb drives is super sweet.

Kataki

I have no problem with a short install time for a reasonable (read: less than 5 gigs *glares at Capcom laziness*) footprint and shorter load times. Being able to fetch frequently used assets quickly is absolutely worth it.

Dorphat the Insomniac

@KirbyMorph: Actually, the Burne Conspiracy is a multi-platform title, so I don't think his favoring of the PS3 had anything to do with being a developer for it, but everything about him simply preferring the hard drive.

mescalineeyes

@Abel: PC games have had an advantage for years, the hard drive. Hard drive access offers lot more freedom for developers and with HDD they can make games better than pure DVD ran games. You might have played games on your consoles off a disc for years, but really no hard drive limits the potential of these games.

Kyle81

No fucking goddam shit it was a mistake. It was a mistake that I am bitter about every day. Here's what pisses me off the most: "From what I understand they don't move many [Core/Arcade] units". I could have told them that from the beginning. I hope they're happy with themselves. Devs should just start refusing to develope for the 360 until MS allows them to require the HDD.

gamadaya

@KirbyMorph:
MLB 08 has a 2gb install and only takes 5 minutes.

sUKi

I really don't understand what all the fuss is around this issue for the game developer community. Just make your game with the 360's HDD integrated into its development; then, have the game sport a sticker or message saying, "HDD Required."

Not only do nearly ALL 360 owners already own a HDD, but those who don't are warned in advance. Done.

leoPirate

@Netnavi: Majority of PS3 games dont do an install. It's been sensationalized lately thanks to Capcom idiotic mandatory installs on 2 recent releases.

Kyle81

In other new, piss is yellow and Miyamoto feels that the Wii is the best console.

Tomorrow: Is water wet? The answer may surprise you!

Moonshadow101

PS3 Developer. In favour of console install times. On my consoles? Uh, uh.

If a mandatory HDD resulted in the 360 having 5GB and over half hour "small, mandatory install time" because developers are too lazy to program properly, I'm more than happy to forgive MS for the Arcade / Core SKU madness.

KirbyMorph

While I agree that all 360's should have a HDD (so I can have a 1080p Street Fighter II HD), when did we sundenly have to go backwards and require installs to improve load times from DVD games? I have played many a game across the PS2, Xbox, Wii and XBox 360 that load pretty quick and still look very nice without hampering my gameplay. I can give a pass on the PS3 because of the size of a BluRay, but DVD's and playing games off DVD's have been around a few years, not exactly new tech here.

Abel

Didn't most of US know it was a bad idea in the first place?

Raziel3333

"Obviously you'll be facing a short install time"

And this is what's buggin me about the games for PS3 and why I am glad that isn't done on 360. I dread to find out how much of an install MGS 4 is gonna be and how long it will take. 60 GB and most of it is gonna go towards installs.

Not a fan of this trend. Does the benefits outwaigh the rewards? Maybe. But it's still a pain.

I rather developers don't use the HDD as a cruch for load times or anything else. Sure they should use it but not soo much that the game might as well just be running off it.

Netnavi

I feel pity for the all the people who bought the basic versions of the 360 without fully understanding what they were really getting into.
No matter which HDD they finally decide to purchase they end up paying more.

VishusBurn

I think this is one thing that everyone universally agrees on.

IIGrayFoxII

I feel really stupid now.

blackadvent

Game install on PS3 version confirmed?

Not that I mind it at all, given the option I'd always choose to have it install. But still, perhaps the option would be nice.

method47

yah i like microsoft and 360 but this is plain dumb

Dakobah

"Another mistake is of course made by the people buying the Core/Arcade Xbox 360s."

Well said.

hop3less

haa !

7th_Ronin

Maybe because of the piracy the built in HDD caused for the Xbox?

NiGHTSSTUDiO