Good riddance.

krunkjuice

They switched to source and quake 4, lost their demand - CPL

Stick to games the community wants to play and thrive. - ESWC

Andariale

@Edge of Blade: Except "fair play" and "sportsmanship" can mean something completely different to even 2 people. See my statement about sportsmanship when talking to Talraen.

They're such vauge, overarching, and varying concepts that they shouldn't even be considered as "rules" for when playing in competition.

Amp

RIP

and LOL @ kids who suck at online games so they make fun of stuff like this, why hate? because you cant make over 100k a year playing games? whats pathetic is 90% of the comments here

styl3s

Sirlin sez:

"A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win."

Oh, so rules like fair play and sportsmanship are what makes a scrub...

Edge of Blade

@Amp: Sirlin....

I was just waiting for someone to bring this self-important moron up. I wonder why he published his book online for free...

Maybe because he sucks at writing and logic. Ask him, he probably says that professional writers are dumb and people should only write for fun.

Edge of Blade

As a person that took place in these tournaments, and even been sponsored to go to CPL stops in the past, i can assure you, progaming is mad fun. For example I quit gaming like a year ago. And 3 days ago i turn quake 3 again, and guess what, i am in love again (kinda like a drug). When you get to the point when ur really good in one type of game, and the competition is insane, this is when the gaming really gives you the god feeling, and many years of practice pay off (kinda :D). And kinda strange that many of old friends that used to play PK and Q4 with me are now back into good old quake 3. 1v1, tdm, ctf. ahhh good old days, of bootcamping, traveling to another states, sometimes even riding half a country in big SVU with bunch of friends and a trunk full of computers. So this is indeed a bad day for progaming community. RIP CPL, i'll remember you.

biofreak

@Talraen:
"As for my friend, aren't you contradicting yourself here? You practically called me brainless for voicing my opinion that someone such as him should have a chance at their first tournament, but now you seem to be insisting he should have without any prior knowledge. I wasn't there, so I can't comment on his actual performance."

Either I was miswording it, or you misread it. But what I was trying to get across is that you are misinformed that your friend's loss was due to some single point of failure in his tactics, and that this single point of failure was his ignorance of wavedashing.

Expecting to "do well" for your FIRST time in a truly competitive environment is naive and idiotic. This will never happen in any sort of competitive environment or game.

"That said, I never tell people not to wavedash when playing me, I just don't play people who do."

That's basically the same thing, but that's an argument for another time.

Anyway, I have to bolt. Other things to do, etc. If you want to learn more about what the true competitive mindset is (I'm not asking you to adopt it, just to at least learn about what it truly is and how it works, as you seem to have some broken notions on it.) I suggest you read the book "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin. He's actually recently published it for free online, here: [www.sirlin.net]

Amp

@Amp: Let me state for the record that I come across as feeling much more strongly than I actually do about this. I've had this argument many times in the past and generally lost. Arguing, like competitive video games, is something I enjoy but am not good at. ;)

That said, I never tell people not to wavedash when playing me, I just don't play people who do. I gave up on SSBM when it got hardcore, most of my frustration comes from threads on smashboards complaining about how these techniques have been taken out of Brawl. The truth is that my problem is not so much with specific exploits, but with what I feel is (coming full circle) a lack of sportsmanship. And as it happens, Wikipedia backs me up: [en.wikipedia.org] - "not adopting a win-at-all-costs approach"

As for my friend, aren't you contradicting yourself here? You practically called me brainless for voicing my opinion that someone such as him should have a chance at their first tournament, but now you seem to be insisting he should have without any prior knowledge. I wasn't there, so I can't comment on his actual performance.

@DeLoRtEd1: I have never tried to learn to wavedash, and have no desire to do so. I've also openly admitted several times, including in my first post to this topic, that I suck at competitive games. And I don't enforce made up rules, I simply don't play games I don't enjoy, because I have no right to force my desires on other people. And I was getting beat regularly at Melee long before anyone I know discovered wavedashing. If I haven't expressed my problem with wavedashing and other techniques like it at this point, further attempts would be futile, but suffice it to say it's neither the difficulty nor effectiveness of the technique that bothers me.

Talraen

@cheesecake000:

Bravo, saved me the hassle of having to type almost the same thing, and it was within the first 50 posts :p

jisf0rjosh

@Talraen: To state slightly more clearly. ALL games when viewed in a competitive aspect, be it Chess, Football, Smash Bros, or Quake, have a learning process that goes alongside actual experience. Things that you will have to read or be told about or else you would never know them.

Also, I fucking guarantee that your buddy didn't lose solely because he didn't know how to wavedash. If he did, it's because he was so psychologically freaked out by the shit he thought shouldn't be happening on his screen, that he lost all semblance of tactical strategy and began playing like a neanderthal. That is if he wasn't already.

I'm also quite offended at this combined notions that glitches should be banned and his statement that competitive players use them out of elitism. If it was, as you said "elitist", or "we don't want people to be part of our secret club", then why are there countless resources and attempts by people to spread the word and teach other people HOW to use these techniques that have spawned from bugs? Shit there's even an article on GameFAQ's on how to wavedash, and a simple tutorial on it is included in probably HALF of the articles there.

Your mindset is the elitist one. You're the one trying to promote a "secret club" aspect. "Don't wavedash when playing against me. It's an unfair glitch tactic that breaks the spirit of the game." The competitive mindset is based on winning and losing, using whatever tools necessary to do so. You don't have to know how to wavedash in order to be of the competitive mindset. I know many competitive players who reject their own supposed need to wavedash, but they don't reject wavedashing based on broken notions of "fair and unfair", they reject it because they don't need it to win.

You have a notion that the competitive mindset is: "We're superior to you because we have access to tools that you don't." Which is horseshit. If this was true, then it wouldn't be as easy as it is to gain such access to those tools.

Amp

@Talraen: See, maybe if you hadn't stated that you hated wavedashing, you may have had a point.

But the fact is, wavedashing is incredibly easy to do, and hating the game because of a simple physics exploit which every character can do is just silly. In fact, it is extremely telling on how you are simply a scrub, when you regulate made-up rules in a game that is only bound by code.

Let's work off your example - an exploit is found in, say, Smash Brawl. This exploit is something that every character can perform.

So...the casuals hate it. Why should I care? You don't like an exploit? If EVERY character or EVERY person in a game can perform the exploit, then what is the problem with it?

Basically, by saying that wavedashing ruined Melee for you, you're saying that you got beat by someone who actually became good at Melee, because wavedashing doesn't make you win. It's just another form of movement.

DeLoRtEd1

@muu: No, I'm not saying that at all. There is a huge difference between strategies and specific techniques. Professional athletes never learn to break the laws of physics, and loopholes in the rules are generally closed as they are discovered (although sometimes the rules will be changed to facilitate new styles of play).

I have a simple question for competitive gamers. If an exploit is found, and casual players hate it, and the creators openly admit they didn't intend it and don't like it, is there any reason (given the option) that it should not be taken out of the game? (I realize this doesn't apply in many cases, I'm asking in general terms.)

Talraen

@Talraen: what you're saying is that everyone should throw out all forms of strategy except the glaringly obvious, since otherwise it wouldn't be fair for beginners. Players in ball games should not do any sorts of formations, because on the first get go -- or if you didn't get prior experience -- you wouldn't know how to handle it. Zone defense? Naah! Let's all just go with the clusterfuck offense/defense.

@Amp: oops, sorry -- started writing before I saw your reply.

If I recall correctly the Starcraft thing in Korea's actually doing fairly well as a televised gaming sport -- I wonder what they're doing correctly that CPL and all the other me-toos aren't.

muu

@Quine: They have baned many many glitches.

Keep in mind that MLG Pros do get paid a lot of money, and if they glitch at times or not does not mean that they aren't great at the game. You really think that the MLG Pros only win because they glitch? Their good at the games, and they get paid a lot to be good.

Gigith

@kathartik: They very much do, however if it takes alot of skill to pull off such as BXR in Halo 2 than they allow it.

Though I'm glad this is shutting down, atleast MLG isn't made for Nazis. (Notice the logo)

Gigith

@Talraen: I hate to respond to only one thing in your post, but it just sticks out so much that I'm actually getting angry every time I read it.

"What I want is a world where you have a chance at doing well in your first competitive tournament, because just playing the game competitively with friends and whatnot is enough."

I don't even know how to properly respond to this as I'm overcome with the desire to simply go into ad hominem attacks on you and your intelligence for saying it. I'll try and state this calmly: That is such a broken and misguided mindset that it doesn't even need to be specifically countered and disproven. It falls apart on its own.

Amp

@Amp: I'll see your anecdote, and raise you two! Sportsmanship is definitely something that exist inside a game, not outside. Aside from the basic tenets of following the rules, not being a sore loser/winner, and so on, there is a bit of the sports version of "do unto others" in there as well. For instance, in the NHL, if a player is injured, play won't stop until that player's team touches the puck. Often, the other team will intentionally turn it over in this situation to stop play. Whether this is motivated by fan/media pressure, a desire to win the game "fairly," or simply hoping your opponents would do the same for you, I don't know. But I've never heard of something like that happening in a pro gaming league.

Also, I have to admit I do get pissed at people who play to win with no regards for fairness. We had a SSBM tournament in college that was set up as four-player time (I protested this before it began an was ignored), and I had both a player go after weaker players to beat me, as well as the same player and his friend double-teaming me in the finals. I don't mind losing (god knows I do it enough), all I ask is a fair fight, and in my experience competitive players won't give you one if they don't have to. That's a lack of sportsmanship.

As for the "spirit of the game," you're right, it's not a hard and fast rule. But the problem isn't whether it's what the designers intended, the problem is whether it considers if the game is fun. They are, after all, games. Competitive gamers embrace complicated exploits and corner cases, and as far as I can tell the reason they do this is pure elitism. They don't want casual gamers in their little club. I would still very much like someone to tell me what would be so bad about a game that's based on skill rather than study.

I can give you a specific example of what I mean. One of my friends from high school is far, far better than anyone else I know in Smash Bros. With this in mind, he one day decided to attend a Melee tournament, and got destroyed. But he didn't get destroyed because he wasn't good, he got destroyed because they were using techniques none of us had ever heard of before. He went on to learn those techniques and do quite well competitively. What I want is a world where you have a chance at doing well in your first competitive tournament, because just playing the game competitively with friends and whatnot is enough. Things like wave dashing ensure that this won't happen.

Talraen

@Talraen:
On "Sportsmanship":
I tend to have a different view on what sportsmanship is. From what you've said, you seem to want sportsmanship to be extended to be within the game itself. I think sportsmanship is entirely external of the game.

Let me give you an anecdote, my best friend and I (I was recently the best man at his wedding) entered a Quake 4 1v1 tournament, and by some weird occurance we faced each other in the first round. As soon as we heard that booming voice say "FIGHT", that is exactly what we did. For the next 30 minutes, he was no longer my friend, he was simply the opposition, nothing more than someone who happened to get in my way, and I was going to push him out of it. I soundly beat him into submission with a 2-0 map score and some 50-frag total deficeit. I later went on to lose 2 rounds later and was out of the tournament. Later that night, my buddy and I (as well as his sisters and his now-wife) went out to see a movie and had a hell of a time.

For a more general anecdote, if you watch many professional LAN tournaments, you'll begin to notice that while in-game it may seem very cutthroat and sour, external to the game the players actually tend to be good friends with one another, like the countless examples I've seen in person where the winner ends up buying the loser drinks that night at the end-of-tournament parties.

On "Gllitches/Exploits":
I'll admit, I don't know what I'd do if I had to play a game of Quake that didn't have the dynamic movement system they all enjoy (Strafejumping, bunnyhopping, rocketjumping, powersliding, etc.), but you have to understand that with any change at all to a game's rules, there is going to be resistance to it.

It doesn't matter if it was removing bugs, or changing the way a more intended feature worked, all change is going to encounter resistance in competitive circles because those competitive circles have just spent a good chunk of practice mastering a certain element of gameplay that is now either completely different, or perhaps even completely GONE.

I should also mention that this is exactly the "12 year old" behavior I was mentioning earlier. Most of the players who do this shouting and complaining about a change to the game's rules aren't the seasoned professionals I talk about. Talk to a REAL champion Smash player, like Ken (Sorry, he's the only one I know of), and I guarantee that while he may voice light opposition to having wavedashing and l-cancelling removed, he will recognize the reason for such a change and will ultimately adapt, probably without a lot of resistance either.

Finally, my last point, and this is where I will be quite less polite. Your definition of "spirit of the game", is horseshit. The "spirit" of the game is created by the people who are currently playing the game, not by its developers. Developers can only give a rough idea of how the game should be played, but that is always, ALWAYS, decided by the players in the end result. For example, did you know that John Carmack wanted to have rocketjumping banned from a Quakecon tournament some years back? (I believe 2003?) But that decision had actually changed the "spirit" of the game that the PLAYERS had created. Would you say the same thing of rocketjumping that you say of wavedashing?

Amp

@Amp: I've actually never had an experience with an obnoxious teenager over voice chat, on Xbox Live or anywhere else. I don't really play too many online games these days because competitive gamers are far too cutthroat. I believe in sportsmanship. If there's an unintended exploit in a game, I choose not to use it because it ruins the spirit of the game for me. My problem isn't even that competitive players don't hesitate to use these exploits. My problem is that they generally go crazy if they are forced out of the game. The day someone in my Smash Bros. group first heard the term "wave dash" was the last day I enjoyed playing with that group. I don't play games to learn advanced techniques in order to win. And I'd much rather lose a close game than win a completely one-sided one.

In short, yes, there is skill involved in taking complete advantage of the game's mechanics, intended or not. But there is also skill involved in playing without doing this. The fact that you don't put any thought into whether the game you play is any fun for casual gamers doesn't make you better than us. Wouldn't it be better if skill was determined by, say, practice, rather than obsessively studying techniques on the internet?

Talraen

@Amp: I hit submit too early :(

"The detest also seems to be compounded by the fact that some people are even unable to stand up to the aforementioned 12 year olds *in a competitive standard*."

Amp

@Talraen: Actually, most of you assume that the behavior and arrogance of 12 year olds on Halo X-Box Live, which is genuinely detestable, is somehow parallel to the behavior of the seasoned professional players.

The detest also seems to be compounded by the fact that some people are even unable to stand up to the aforementioned 12 year olds.

Amp

@DeLoRtEd1: You realize you're proving my point, right?

Talraen

@Talraen: You mean when you get raped online? Yeah, exactly.

DeLoRtEd1

@AMonkey: Actually, most of us just hate the arrogance of pro gamers who think they are the be-all and end-all of gaming.

Talraen

I'm going to generalise now in response to the stupidity here:

All those who are complaining about Pro Gaming suck hard at online/multiplayer games and so hate on those who are better. With their ignorance they then call those better exploiters.

Good day.

AMonkey

First time I've disagree'd with commentors on Kotaku on such a scale.

What the hell is wrong with pro gaming?

Are you all so phobic of people that play games against other people and win?

AMonkey

@Aquashark: I like this statement and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

iamnotdryad

@kathartik: That's where I was going with the NASCAR analogy. It is true that in other sports, however loosely defined that is, players are great relative to that particular sport. You rarely, if ever, see crossover between leagues - a great NFL player entering the NBA, for example.

While Call of Duty 4, Quake 4, and Halo 3 are nods to modernism, one look at the numbers in the names shows how they are still ultimately first-person shooters and require similar skills to stay alive. There are so many games and genres to choose from, why not invite an Ironman video game competition?

Personally, I'd watch that on ESPN. Probably more entertaining than Random Poker Match #67.

Kyouryuu

way to bring this discussion on the level of Smash Bros when there are tons of better competitive games even in the same genre..

Koreans are enjoying their awesome StarCraft circuit.. rest of the world dukes it out in Halol & Wii Tennis

gg no re

Aquashark

@ZinkO: The Game (the kind you just lost): There ya go. You just said it. The reason why "cybersport" is not a sport at all. Because if you play football in real life, you can't find tricks that do the impossible. You are playing in a computer program that has inherent bugs and glitches. Whether or not you want to get into an argument of "original intent" or not, it breaks the game for all but those who know the glitches. It's not an equal playing field. An unfair match characterizes how you fight a war, not how you play a sport.

Edge of Blade

@ZinkO: The Game (the kind you just lost):

Take Smash Bros. for example. The game was designed to be a simple fighting game, without complicated controller moves and whatnot. People discovered and developed techniques that are exactly what the game is not about, and then got upset when they were taken out in Brawl. In this case at least, tournament players don't care about fairness, they care about having their elitist techniques that make them feel special. God forbid the plebians get to play the same game "serious" players do!

Talraen

@Aquashark: Yes, it's sad that there are so much haters here.

mizeriq

most of Kotaku users = bunch of console kiddies and mediocre hacks, envious on anyone with greater abillities in any form.

Aquashark

This is one of the most depressing threads i've ever read. As part of the gaming community you would think people would'nt be so negative towards this. Calling pro-gamers lazy and saying they need real jobs is just stupid, and comparing them to any other sport equally as dumb. Nfl players make on average lets say 10-12 million a year, Pro gaming maybe 30,000 im pretty sure you can make more then that working at a steel mill or hell a mcdonalds manager. These people have other jobs, they have lives, yes come tournament time they are 100% game mode but who gives a shit. I'ts fucking fun!

And to say its boring to watch means youve never attended a live event before or your only source for video games is spike tv and g4. Ide rather watch a quake 4 match anyday over football, basketball, baseball (i do like watching hockey though) and hell ide watch a competitive sims match over nascar HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A SPORT AND NOT VIDEO GAMES, IT TAKES MORE SKILL TO ROCKET JUMP IN QUAKE THEN TO TURN LEFT FOR 6 HOURS!

I now understand why gamers are looked down on in society so bad, Not even the gamers look out for other gamers, and its fucking disgusting.

twoinches

@jookie: True but the process to dispute and prove the other team was cheating was a real pain in the ass... You had to have some substantial evidence and at times demo playback was utterly useless. I have to admit I might have embellished a bit about the cheating in my matches (not scrims) Guess I was just being a sore loser :P

BurnerAzR

What with this gate against pro-gamming and e-sports? I dont like sports, and I dont like e-sports, but some people do love these stuff. Let then have his fun, for crist sake!

tei

@iamnotdryad:

What I am referring to is people who say they have no lives, or what will they put on their resume, as if they didn't actually work hard to do what they want do; which is all that matters. Im not talking about how some gaming leagues are/were operated or what they end up standing for, i'm just talking about the people.

Sentouki

@Talraen:
give me good reasons why any pro gamer would ever care about "purity". Without, say, l-cancelling, melee would be EVEN MORE broken because characters with slow airs like dorf, link, bowser etc would be even worse off than they already are.
there's no reason to use this vague "as the game was meant to be played" argument, because it assumes that a few guys who made the game over a year or so will learn more than thousands of people playing over five or six years.

ZinkO: The Game (the kind you just lost)

It is sad to see so many people going out of there way to bitch and complain about something that they've probably never even known of or have ever been a part of. For those of you that don't know cpl use to be huge. It started to die slowly then it died completely after a sequence of the years running. I will miss it, a lot of people put a lot of hard work, time and money into getting it running. If you think that it's stupid to play competitively that is your opinion. Playing a game like it's a sport does take a lot of skill and effort. Almost every "pro gamer" that i know does not only play video games for a living. They actually have a job go to college and have a life. On the side they can still play video games competitively. Like those who are in the league the CGS. Getting paid to play. Because they are the best. So... don't go out of your way to laugh and giggle on a site about something you don't know about.

Craig-VN-Gossman

I freely admit that I suck at competitive games, and I don't really have a problem with the concept of pro gaming. That said, I *hate* the way pro gaming embraces exploits as long as they don't give one side an unfair advantage. Almost all of the "high level" play I've witnessed relies on maximizing your ability to use these exploits instead of playing the actual *game* the way it was intended. In real sports such exploits are taken out of the rules (see: NHL rules changes in response to the neutral zone trap). Competitive video games too often lose sight of the purity of the game, for lack of a better term.

Talraen

@Quine: Never followed the Halo 2 MLG scene much, did you?

iamnotdryad

@Sentouki:

Sad to find people making baseless accusations about others because they're butthurt.

I'm actually pretty competitive when I play games and I've won some local LANs in the past. I've had pretty good self-esteem the last couple of years, too. How's that for lack of self-esteem and drive? I think competitive gaming is extremely enjoyable; very few things in life can give me the same reason as playing competitively but I apologize if my dislike of MLG has offended you some how. I am greatly sorry that I dislike MLG for what it built itself upon with its flagship game of Halo 2: allowing the use of exploits and glitches that Bungie themselves said was cheating. Why should I respect people who resort to cheating or will someone argue against me that what Bungie says about their own game doesn't mean a damn thing?

iamnotdryad

so, does this mean we will see a bunch of unemployed pro-gamers on street corner holding placecard saying: "Will Gaming for Food...or more!"

or will they have to now go find a conventional job? D:

Onizuka-GTO

Sad to find gamers trashing other gamers for no other reason than their low self-esteem and lack of drive.

Sentouki

Major League Glitchers, goooooooooooo

iamnotdryad

@kojirodensetsu: very debatable. MLG allows (read: requires) wavedashing in smash brothers to be good, as well as abuse of character glitches to cancel lag-time between moves. It doesn't often allow outright exploitation of major glitches most of the time, but it's still a very grey area.

Quine

@Mesren_Makai: If that's your opinion then you should agree that no one should get paid high sums for any sport whatsoever?

PixelRambo

@chiefpoopingpants: "Video games are meant to be played and not watched." is a strange argument because that could be said about any real sport and still lots of people watch sports broadcasts on tv. On the other side there´s in another way valid point in it.
To me i think pro gaming events aren´t seen as sport because the (to most uninformed viewers) visible activity is restricted to sitting in front of the screen. Its not taken serious as kind of a mind sport either because usually either most people understand the games enough that they rather play them themselves instead of watching whole tourneys of others playing em or they don´t understand em enough to realize the guys sitting in front of the screen do anything that is special compared to anyone else sitting in front of the screen and playing a game.
To me those events always seemed a bit like the hardware and software sellers trying to hype a handful of persons for playing a game well to have an argument in saying playing games all day doesn´t have to be wasted time, yes you can actually earn money with it.
The reality is either you should play games purely for the fun of it or if you really want to make money with it (and have some writing skills) try to become a video game journalist or become a beta tester at some game company,cause yeah,dunno if its actually a good thing to play a game so long and on such a competitive level that you maybe become one of the 20 guys on the planet that really earn propper money just with that.

tomsamson

Video games are meant to be played and not watched. That is why "pro" gaming sucks. No one wants to watch people play video games. To top it off most people who present these sort of things have no presentational talent.

I'm sure people in the tourneys love not having a real job but sorry, the rest of us find you boring and rather play games. Let "pro" gaming die off for good.

chiefpoopingpants

Watching people play video games is entertaining.

malvolio-the-magician

@Waterwings: Yup, I agree. Evo forever!

HoxtonHero

@Waterwings: You make a very valid point. A point that kinda makes me feel a little idiotic at my previous blurted statements.

And I shouldn't necessarily bark about it being considered a sport. You're right- it should be considered one in those regards. It may not have as massive popularity as other sports, but still. I shouldn't be so against it, and I'm not so much a fan of it. So I guess when the dust settles, I nothing it.

But I still don't think people should make a living off of it. Not to sound so stingy or anything. Sure, maybe a potluck check for like....500-1000, but 25000? 50,000? Surely you jest.... Again, I know I'll sound stupid for such a minute complaint that in all respects, has no impact on me whatsoever. Some people really do get too dreamy and snobbish about trying to make a living doing it.

Mesren_Makai

@Nikral: If I were in charge of paying pro-sporters....there'd be some changes.....

Mesren_Makai

Another ex-CAL-i kid checking in. I've got to say more than anything else, the level of competition is what drives me. CS happened to provide the speed and depth of strategy necessary to engage my head. I feel sorry for those of you who haven't experienced the same rush that's kept me playing for years. You are really missing out on something.

As far as the argument about gaming being a sport is concerned, I don't think it matters. It's semantics. It's a game being played by high-skilled individuals who've honed their craft to a point that few in the world can match them.

megabyte

I'm happy to see these places closing their doors. Pro gaming is ridiculous in my book.

BOMxAgonyxScenex

I cant believe the point of view of the majority here. Sure, i don't sit down and watch a CS match like I may watch a footy match, but the sport is great fun and just adds a little bit more to gaming. Sad to see it failing IMO.

m1tch37

I've never played a game for money over say $10 on a bet. Competitive gaming just doesn't interest me and watching it doesn't either. Then again, I don't like to watch football or soccer, but I like playing them too.

So perhaps I should just take the middle ground and say people watching people do things they themselves could do quite easily are tools. >=(!

Sinfjotle

@Sroek: What a cliche copout excuse for sucking at meatspace.

I have never met a more narcissistic group of college dropout trash than pro-gamers. I find it funny that people abuse Microsoft for their business practices when the companies that actually exploit them get a free ride.

Pro-gaming is a flash in the pan, an industry that exploits the delusional gamer, and one of the reasons people don't take gaming seriously. Who the hell wants to watch the zit-faced night manager of the local 7-11 play a lame keep-away match of 1 on 1 Fear deathmatch? Yeah, that was what CPL payed thousands of bucks for in their championship finals this summer. I went to see it and thought, this guy is totally lame. He got one kill and spent the rest of the 15 minute match running away.

No wonder CPL is calling it quits. They are terminally lame.

Edge of Blade

@Kyouryuu: I completely agree. This is my big issue with it. I have a hard time thinking of someone as a "professional" gamer when it seems like they only really play 1 or 2 games. I'm sure they play other games too, but at the same time, every single time I've ever flipped past an airing of MLG, inevitably they're ALWAYS playing Halo 3 for CoD4.

Although, I may be being unfair. it's not like people playing other sports know how to play every position on the field *shrugs*

@cheesecake000: no I haven't met any pro gamers, and from what I've seen/read I wouldn't want to. When I start reading things about individuals not wanting anyone to touch their contoller or they have to replace it and not wanting to have anything to do with the opposite sex as to concentrate solely on their gaming, it kind of sours me to the idea.

Sure again, I'm pigeonholing, but that's the great thing about opinions, we can base them on what we know about, not necessarily on reality ;)

kathartik

Coming from a former CAL-i CS player who hasn't been involved in the scene for several years, it's quite sad/nostalgic to see this league go. The CPL really helped develop CS competition online and in LAN tournaments in North America.

After seeing WSVG fold a while back I suppose it's not too surprising that other leagues are following. The market seems very saturated with leagues and there just isn't enough interest to justify all of them.

It could also be that people are just losing interest in a game that's almost a decade old. I don't really see another game coming along that could be as successful as counter-strike was.

arcum

@Mesren_Makai: I believe any type of event where competitors are given a fair environment to compete based purely on the individual's skill, whether it be physically or mentally, should be considered a sport. I mean, they have things like International Mathematical Olympiad and the competitors take it just as serious as any participant in the real Olympics. I find that people watch sports usually are in it for the high level of skills demonstrated by the professional athletes. People go crazy over a crazy goal in soccer or an epic dunk in basketball. I believe the same goes for video games (like the clip I've included in the previous comment).

Waterwings

@Edge of Blade:

What a cliche copout excuse for sucking at videogames.

Sroek

@Sroek: Sounds like someone has no concept of what real skill is. Come live in the real world with the rest of us.

Edge of Blade

Woohoo. One less organization taking advantage of delusional youth.

Edge of Blade

I do not see the logic behind your "pro-gaming" is ruining the games" statement. If anything, pro-gaming is promoting games and gives more money to game developers.
Seems like a console fanboy opinion.

It is a sad thing to see CPL fade away.

Tisteldun

It sounds like a lot of comments here are from people who are jealous of gamers who possess more skill than them.

Sroek

I think it's funny how half of this thread is a bunch of scrubs whining because they cant make money in their games.

"Omg they use exploits, they use cheats, they use hacks"

yeah and the people dont whine about that are the ones who take the money home.

Nobody forces scrubs to play competitively. XD

Dogysamich

As a CAL official, Mr. Munoz had asked me to come on here and let everyone know that he is open to your inquiries at his email address: munoz.angel@thecpl.com

Please write him there with any questions or concerns about the future of CAL/CPL.

bceres

@Diesel_Power: Why watch hockey on TV if you can play hockey? Why watch the Olympics if you can go run outside?

Because if you are remotely interested in games, you'll enjoy seeing things there that you'll never be able to do. These guys arent't just anybody.

I watched a lot of Starcraft and Warcraft on TV in Korea, and I saw things that I will never forget. On guy called Moon something played the elves on WC3 and just amazed me.

Kaneda

Progaming can work if society accepts it as a legitimate form of competition. Korea and China are good examples of that. It will take more time in countries like USA. A good percentage of Americans don't have any console or PC in their homes. USA still has a long way to go with videogaming in general.

alecpyron

Wow. So how do you put "played video games for money" on a resume and have it not make you look like a loser?

@Nikral:
And I hope that someday, most professional sports leagues will be viewed with the same disdain that professional video gaming receives now. Except women's beach volleyball. They can stay.

@Fnor:
It's possible that the market _is_ oversaturated. How many pro gaming leagues are there now? It's likely that there's only enough market to support one league. Look at what happened to basketball in the 70's, or that alternate form of football that lasted all of a couple years. How many basic sports can you think of that have more than one professional league within the US? And no, men's/women's leagues don't count.

But in all reality, I'd say that if they really did have to pay entry fees, that's the most telling sign. That means that the only people who do care about pro gaming to support the business are other pro gamers. And likely, in this case, it's becoming only the people who win pro gaming tournaments or sign lucrative endorsement deals, because they're the only ones who aren't losing money on the deal. The first couple times you play, you might think you have a chance. Then you might get caught up in the wonderment of getting beaten by the best of the best. And then you realize that you're paying him for the "privelege" of losing to him time and again, and maybe some of the sparkle starts to fade into oozing, foul smelling rust that permanently stains anything that touches it. If you can play for free after qualifying, it won't matter so much if you don't actually earn a paycheck, but _paying_ for the right to lose to a guy who doesn't have to go work at Taco Bell to support his hobby falls on the other side of the fence.

And as for being a spectator, well, my interest tends to wane the closer it gets to time printed on my movie ticket, so I can't see myself even showing up to watch an event that's free to attend, much less one that charges enough to cover at least a modest fee for all participants.

Purple Dave

One criticism I would make is that the leagues tend specialize in a handful of games. The ancient Counter-Strike 1.6 or Quake 3, for example, and on a small subset of official maps. It's always been my contention that a true "professional gamer" ought to be able to handle any game and any map thrown at them.

Yes, you can argue that NASCAR drivers operate on the same boring circular track and you would be correct that the popularity of that sport defies any rational logic. Let's just ignore that argument.

Instead, as a case in point, look at the Omegathon competition at the end of every PAX. Contestants have to battle each other in a wide variety of games, always culminating in a surprising end choice, like Tetris or even Pong. Maybe some year they will pull a Video Armageddon and whip out Super Mario Bros. 3. Who knows?

In my opinion, this format is fun to watch because no one can be the master of all of the games and watching them struggle is half the entertainment. The atmosphere is more relaxed and casual. It is far less pretentious. The audience is an active participant in the excitement, being surprised at the choices, laughing at the reactions, and getting swept up in the trials and tribulations of the whole contest.

That's just my two cents.

Kyouryuu

So the argument continues...

Are video games art? Or are they a sport?

ostartero

Starcraft has been going strong for 12 years and Counter-Strike 1.6 has been going for about 9 on a side note.

jookie

@lRyul: Korea's special. I'll admit that in Korea Starcraft is an actual sports otherwise my statement still stands. Casuals, the mainstream, couldn't care any less about watching pro gaming. That won't be changing any time soon.

TeknoVagrant

@TeknoVagrant: That is completely untrue. I hate when people who think they are in the know talk, when they obviously aren't.

First of all, CS has been around since the late 90's. Obviously it has undergone changes here and there, but so has every other sport we know today. CS is still being played strong. Starcraft is another prime example.

Also to say people don't watch eSports is completely untrue. If you ever go to an MLG event the crowd for the finals is pretty damn big. On top of that, you have to factor in everyone who is watching on VoD. Once you factor that it you factor in people who watch it when it is broadcasted on cable TV.

The finals for Starcraft in Korea had more spectators than the NBA championship did. Let me guess, NBA is a joke now?

I remember watching some finals for CS in HLTV with 16k other people. They were fake right?

Experience something before you talk about it. When you are uneducated about something you look as smart as Laurance Cooper talking about Mass Effect.

lRyul

Antagonism between pro gamers and casual gamers is just silly. Neither inhibits the other.

Pro golfers don't prevent the casual golfers from hitting the links (OK, except for maybe when there's a tourney going on). In fact, the amateurs can pick up a thing or two from the folks that play for a living to improve their own casual game.

But anything using the term "Cyberathlete" and not actually including kickass cybernetic competitors deserved to fail. Such disappointing false advertising...

Iron_Cricket

Gaming as a sport is just dumb. No, it's not because I got my ass handed down to me by some 'pro'. As a casual player why would I care to waste my time watching someone play some random game that won't be around next year or the year after that? Maybe once a game is around long enough and there's no plans for significant changes, pro gaming will be a real thing.

As much as I think pro gaming is dumb though it doesn't mean I think it isn't fun for the people playing. I'm sure actually participating in the leagues is fun but with sports you need people who want to play and people who want to watch. With sports gaming you only have one.

TeknoVagrant

I think it's really sad that in a gaming community like Kotaku some of my fellow gamers would talk poorly about something that I, and a lot of other competitive gamers really feel strongly about. Competitive gaming isn't necessarily a sport but a competition, kind of like ping pong.

For all you naysayers out there check out www.thecgs.com . Anytime something from our community gets represented in the mainstream, either by people debating Bioshock's artistic value, or Counter-Strike Sources competitive value, it helps all of us.

Most of the competitive community composes of nice individuals and fellow gamers. Show some love.

And for those of you who think it is a joke, check out player salaries, sponsorship deals, and million dollar direct tv prize pots.

And for those of you who think anyone could be a competitive gamers let's 1v1 aim map :D .

mR.Waffles

@Diesel_Power: While it's definitely true that you can join a pub server and see a great player dish out some ownage, competitive play is on a whole other level. I can speak only from a CS perspective, but naturally there is little to no teamwork and coordination in pug servers whereas in pro leagues people have things timed down to the second.

The top tier of players are separated more by tactics and teamwork more than individual skill. Any player of the top few teams can make reflex headshots all day, only a few teams are able function like one smooth machine and that's whats exciting for me.

Most pro players are nothing like that "i pwn you **** n00bs" foul mouthed players you meet in pug servers. It's the inexperienced players who whine and bitch about hax and lag every time you dish it to them that, pro players tend to have more respect for each other in my experience.

It's a pity about the CPL, I was still in Asia when I was playing competitively so I couldn't try out. But my team did make it to the WCG playoffs and man, South Korea was amazing. Alas, there really is no time for competitive play when you start college though.

fooze

My my. Just how many gamers are having a personal vendetta against pro gaming just because some gaming prodigy genuinely handed their ass to them in a round of COD4? Tsk tsk. Very sad indeed.

Still, it's a huge relief to see pro-competitive gaming heads dishing out valid points here. But well, morons will be morons. Everybody plays their part in this world I guess.

garytek

I like pro gaming. I don't like the ego that most pro gamers get, but the idea of being payed to play a game sounds rad to me, and it's one of the few things that I could actually do that I'd be payed for. It's also pretty fun to watch the slower-paced games, since those are the ones where all the brilliant tactics and impressive setups shine through like nothing in a public game. Some of the faster games are cool too, because what makes your jaw drop like seeing some amazing combo that's next to impossible to pull off in a fighting game? I definitely despise certain "cheap" elements of pro play, though. Infinite combos, instant kill moves, and abuses of any variety make me lose respect for a victor in the end.

It's sad to see that there's less of this.

Taco Bell™

@Cyber:

And where exactly does this article mention fatal1ty anywhere? Heck even on kotaku alone, there's only 4 articles on him last year.

I have to agree on that the negativity towards pro-gaming stems from the players who probably get decimated from this "self-proclaimed pros" in pubs and thinks that all pro players have some sort of ego.

I wouldn't say South Korea really takes pro-gaming to the next level, more like it takes Starcraft to the next level. I can admit to not knowing anything about the pro-gaming scene of South Korea but do they have any leagues or competitions that doesn't revolve around starcraft?

Xurreal

@Mesren_Makai: Why pay professional sports players millions of dollars? Same reason applies to Pro-gaming.

Nikral

@Waterwings: Okay....I'll admit...that was pretty ridiculously awesome....

I've seen competitive gaming- my friend used to do it alot and invite me. I still see no reason to consider it a sport, nor why it should be even sponsored to pay kids grande dollars for winning. It's just a big over-hyped LAN party of epic proportions (in size, folks) , but with corporations slapping their logos here and there.

But philosophically, we could argue left and right about what it takes to be considered a "sport"....

Mesren_Makai

@Waterwings: Epic!

r1nce

Everyone who says competitive gaming is a waste of time has either:
1. Never played competitively
2. Played competitively but sucked so much that he takes out his anger on competitive gaming in general

You have to understand that competitive gaming isn't necessarily about the prestige, it's about playing in a controlled environment with even teams, team work, communication, etc.

Granted, watching e-sport games isn't entertaining for me, it's all a matter of opinion. I personally only like playing it, but for each his own.

For those saying "anyone can be a pro gamer", I laugh at you. I guarantee you'd probably get rolled by even the worst of CAL-open teams.

dsectric

This was predicted by Martinmumbles on Epileptic gaming last month he works for them apprantly.

matthew2398

@kent_f:
It's an E-Sport. Can't you at least accept that? It doesn't have to satisfy the requirements of a traditional sport.

Apparently you have no idea how big the E-Sport scene is in Korea, because Starcraft comes close to being a national sport there with millions of fans. Almost everyone in Korea has watched Starcraft or at least heard of it before.

orangedude

@BurnerAzR: even back then, matches had rules that were monitored and could be disputed. You probably played scrims which are just practice. :x

@UncleScrotar: Some people like playing football but not watching. It's just preference. By the way professional gaming does work. And by the way, most "competitive games" require teamwork which most 13 years aren't exactly good at. It's still gaming, just money or recognition is involved.

jookie

I don't understand why there's so much hatred towards pro-gaming here in Kotaku where video games are taken more seriously than most other places out in the world. I don't see how pro-gaming affects you in anyway from enjoying games or anything else. Moments like this

+ Watch video

Another point is, using glitches to win can be done by both teams, not to mention CPL had regulations that penalized players for using known exploits on certain maps (ie illegal use of flash bangs in CS 1.6).

Waterwings

Yawn. Professional gaming is for tools. Per Enigma_20XX's comment about it being more of a sport than NASCAR, i would say neither are sports, but something tells me driving a car at 200 mph is a little more difficult than sniping 13 year olds in Counter Strike. Pro gaming will never work because, surprise surprise, most of us can fire up Xbox Live or PSN and compete with most anyone else (unlike say strapping on some pads and going toe to toe with Warren Sapp). Why would I as a gamer want to watch gamers play games. In short, the logic is off and i'm not really in the mood to articulate...

UncleScrotar

Does this mean we can stop having to hear about fatal1ty? Please? Pretty please?

Cyber

Ugh CPL.. All those bad memories coming back to me now. I don't think I ever played against a team that Didn't have at least one player who used an exploit or "hack" in all my matches. Mind you this was 3-4 some odd years ago and I haven't played competitively since.

Rip CPL... Even though the time we spent together was hell... I will still miss you :P

BurnerAzR

@kent_f: Tell that to the Chess, Go, and Shogi players of the world. They will be really happy to listen to your "enlightened view" of what is sport and what is not.

You might also want to visit wikipedia and remove all mention of sport from the chess pages.

PixelRambo

@Diesel_Power:

This...
@DeLoRtEd1:

It's more of a "sport" than NASCAR, you have to at least admit that...

Enigma_20XX

@kent_f: Tell that to Formula 1 racing - people call that a sport

DeLoRtEd1

There are some good points being raised here, but everyone is forgetting something.

For all sports, the money comes from two sources. Television (or broadcast) rights and the great unwashed. Be they watching, getting exposed to advertising from corporate sponsors, or buying merchandise related to the sport.

I'm going to gloss over the finer points (and largesse) of broadcasting rights and focus on the mob.

The mob is fickle, and learning the ground rules for a different game every 6-12 months just isn't something those outside the community are going to do. Those inside the community, while willing to do so, just don't generate enough widget sales to reasonably sustain the sport.

If Joe Bloggs wants to invest his time and interest in supporting the Quake Qillers, he's going to need the basic rules of the game explained to him so that he can understand the nuances of the competition. In 7.38 month's time when a new game in the same genre is released and the Qillers move on to that game, Joe Bloggs either needs to learn the nuances of the new game, or pass off his passing interest in this different kind of sport while feeling partially betrayed by his team for moving on to another game. Joe will likely tell everyone about the sport he watching and why he's given up and why they shouldn't bother either.

When was the last time basketball changed the amount you scored for a basket? Or let your team have more than 5 players on the court at a time? When did football (real football) give the goalkeeper an assistant? Or throw an extra ball on the pitch?

You can't keep changing the rules and expect the general populace to follow blindly with wallets in hand.

r1nce

Now hundreds of CS kidies can go outside and live a normal life...good thing.

Xmaster

Never entered in a tournament myself but I have seen some league play. Its actually somewhat fun to watch but the difference between football and CS is that CS is far more accessible than a football game. A 70 year old man cannot go out and start playing a game of full on tackle football without expecting to receive serious injury if not death, so he opts to watch the game and enjoy seeing it motion as well as have that competitive experience that we all enjoy. However, a 70 year old man who want s to play CS can easily walk over to the computer and boot it up and start playing if he wants to with full abilities of being able to play almost anybody in the world without worrying about referees, footballs, injuries, etc... Really you appreciate watching a sport when you don't want to or cannot go and play which is why watching competitve gaming is nowhere near as fun as actually playing in such competitions. I enjoy watching some gaming competitions to a point, because they are entertaining and do require skill, but it will never match my excitement for watching the LA Angels in person. I think for pro gaming to take off they need one unified league that covers a vast variety of games with comprehensive reporting. At this point there is no way that pro gaming can take off.

Anyway personally i would enjoy it more if they made game making competitions. Oh I woulbd e so happy to flip to ESPN and watch 3 teams of coders racing furiously against each other to produse a game (or even maybe an apprentice-esque show for game design). That would be awesome!

Weasel3689

@DeLoRtEd1:
There's difference between watching the NFL and playing football with my friends on the front lawn.

Nfl = tackels
nfl = physical athletes competing against one another
nfl = amazing plays

Thats why I watch NFL even when I can play football

Watching competitive gaming is like watching an hour long death cam.

I can play on a server and watch a player own the shit out of everyone else, and rack up 50 kills with 2 deaths.

Why would some chump shovel out money to watch this?

I play on the same xbox360 and PC and these pro gamers do. This is nothing special.

Diesel_Power

i do think this is a bit sad... but then again they wouldn't have shut down if they were popular, so i guess they've simply gone the way of the dinosaur - retirement.
if you ask me, making it slightly more accessible to the general public might help - i've never seen them 'perform' and am not interested in spending ten hours a day playing only one game - so i'll never be good enough to play against them.

i dunno. is there any need for these people? i don't personally enjoy the olympics, these people are so good at something completely bizarre that it's almost comical... why bother?

ha. all this talk of counter strike 1.?... i'm a child of cs 0.6, before they gimped the knife.

comedy

There's still the ESL (Electronic Sports League) and CSL (Console Sports League), both run by the same team. The ESL has been going for a couple of years now and from my experience seems to be pretty professionally done.
And of course there's XLeague.tv which seems to be doing pretty well these days.

Dajmin

Well I do find it ridiculous calling it a sport. But honestly I find it more ridiculous calling Chess a sport.

k_dash

@lRyul: This man speaks the truth, I have been following the CS scene since I first heard of CPL, that was since CS1.0(1.1), I have never had so much fun spectating CS as much as any other game.

I would blame the sponsors for not paying the teams which lead to its shutdown. and ofcourse Counter-Strike:Source.
I guess the G7 Boycott did really kill them there.

Info about the boycott here:
[www.esreality.com]

k_dash

Gaming is not a sport. If you're basing it on needing strategy, hand-eye co-ordination, tactics, etc than you might as well say that playing boardgames like Risk, Stratego, or hell, even Mouse Trap are sports.

I have no problem with competitive gaming, I don't participate, nor do I care to, but don't start calling it a sport.

kent_f

There's so much hostility toward pro gaming that it's almost staggering. I really liked CPL and I'm sad to hear it go. But people who think that pro gaming is dying though, haven't seen the recent breakthroughs that MLG has gone through. Like someone said before, MLG just got sponsored by Dr. Pepper. It also just made a deal to have videos on ESPN; the 2007 season was recently boradcasted on TNT, too.

I think many of the people on Kotaku dislike Pro Gaming so much because they associate pro gamers with the 12-year kids who like to trash talk on XBL. In reality, you'll find the the best pro gamers are very professional and quite mature. I went to the opener event for MLG in 2007, and everyone was really nice to me.

If you think about it, competitive gaming is almost inevitable. Just like with anything fun-from sports to hobbies-people will always want to be the best and will accordingly want to prove to the world that they are.

patlikesKOTAKU

Why are people so down on the concept of professional gaming?

I loved the CPL. I spent hours listening to the shoutcast and the HLTV feed of live CS matches. It was an event that I enjoyed. It's sad to see it go.

MoeB

@sleeptastic: Read my last comment. Or, here's the jist of it:

Give it time.

DeLoRtEd1

@sleeptastic: Attending even grand finals is free in Korea, why should they need to be interested in paying money? Companies pay for advertisement by owning teams and leagues.

mizeriq

Pro gaming works. In Korea. Not so much in the US. Most of the defenders of US Pro Gaming are saying it's fun to participate, or fun to watch if you're a pro yourself. The problem is, it's not fun for non-pros. Most people don't even know about the existance of specific pro leagues. Unless non-pros are interested in paying money to watch, pro gaming will be on the same level as say, a company betting pool.

sleeptastic

Maybe I'll purchase the rights of the icon for use in my hyped up DJ league. All I gotta do is turn that mouse into a turntable and, voila.!

BigDanG

CPL closes down, because it sucked, nobody cared about it, except the participants.
Just for comparison there recently was a korean starcraft invitational tournament broadcasted over the net with english commentary and it got 1 million unique hits, with around 500k in the finals.
The company is now launching a full league.

mizeriq

@Fnor:
It's not meaningless. There are some things you need to remember.

1 - Professional Gaming is still learning how to walk

2 - There are many Leagues trying to learn to walk

3 - Gaming in general is evolving quite rapidly, as games are not only seen as just games any more.

Gaming as art - Bioshock, Super Mario Galaxy

Gaming as sport - Counter-Strike 1.6, Halo 1, 2, 3, Super Smash Bros. Melee

That's not to say that these games aren't games - they still are. It's just they're holding different significant meanings to lots of different audiences.

So - the market is crowded, plus the leagues and the notion of professional gaming is still in its baby stages. OF COURSE there are going to be failures along the way. This is a bad combo. I predict there to be a national league that will have longevity just like the NFL. It's just a process of natural selection.

Gamers in general need to embrace professional gaming, as it is a celebration of gaming! My god, I don't know why people call it sad. We as gamers spend our lives embracing games and defending games as a legitimate past-time..why are people trying to act as if one form of gaming is better than another?

Get off your high horses, people.

DeLoRtEd1

@Fnor: If you read my post you would have found out why the CPL fell apart. It was a shady business Angel ran, plain and simple. Leagues like WCG, ESWC, and MLG are still propering. As a matter of fact, Dr. Pepper just recently sponsored MLG as the "official drink".

Just because YOU don't want something doesn't mean there isn't a market. Trust me, the competitive scene is huge.

Why do you think Halo 3 is removing the Hardcore playlists and replacing it with "MLG" gametypes and settings. Why do you think Rainbow Six Vegas 2 has a level at an MLG venue?

Oh yeah, it is dying, I forgot.

lRyul

Not because they don't care, but most just play for fun and don't have a clue about the stuff.

jookie

@Fnor: Never said we needed it. Just said that it makes it seem like the general public might start to take gaming a little more seriously, which would be a good thing. Every good thing has a downside, of course, and CPL's downside happened to be a whole lot of douchebags.

Veit

@Fnor: There are dozens of thriving tournaments like this. One failure doesn't account for all of them. Fact is lots of things amounted to the failure of the CPL. Aside from using games such as WiC and FEAR that the competitive community had little interest in, they didn't pay prize money, ect. With such a huge amount of 'regulars' not attending the last CPL event, closure was iminent.

@Lemming To The Sea: "Randoms" or your average player won't participate in such things.

jookie

Competitive gaming is a lot of fun as a participant. For all you haters who complain that competitive gamers are ruining the games... what, its wrong to want to be good at a game? If you're not a competitive gamer, thats fine, but don't start telling other people how to play.

Competitive game leagues are a good way to see how good you can possibly be.

shadydentist

@cheesecake000: It ruins games from all the randoms who want to become good at the games so they can simply make money. It happens in video games in addition to card games like Magic: The Gathering. When you place money prizes behind something, it always ruins the playerbase by making them try to take themselves seriously thus ruining the game for all those around them.

Lemming To The Sea

hrm

WillW

@DeLoRtEd1: "general ennui" is meaningless. These ventures are failing. Why are they failing? They're not making enough money. Why are they not making enough money? Not enough people want their product. They can blame an overly concentrated market (but really, compared to most this one is wide open), but in the end, their product wasn't popular enough to continue. Just like the WSVG last year. And probably another one next year. Saying "the market is too crowded" is essentially saying "there aren't enough people that want our product." When that starts happening to multiple firms, then it's a pretty clear indicator that people just don't care, no matter how you try to characterize your firm's failure.

@Veit: "We" don't "need" competitive gaming. You might want it, and that's fine, but that really says nothing about the overall utility or desirability of a league. Personally, I think anything that has the potential to spawn another toolbox like fatal1ty must be killed. With fire.

Fnor

@Diesel_Power: Why watch football or any other sport for that matter when you can play it yourself?
I hope one day we can get a professional league going that will be as acceptable as most sports professions.

Nikral

I used to compete on TWL. It was like the free version of the CPL. Kind of a minor league, I guess you could say.

I never liked the idea of paying an entry fee, and liked to just compete for fun, so I stuck with TWL.

Well, that, and they would have ate me alive in the CPL.

PapaBear434

@gamer4250: CPL is mostly all LAN. Little hard to cheat when you've got refs standing right behind you. For most serious online competitions they have anti-cheat programs you need to run in the background and there's pretty much 100% chance you're going to get caught if you cheat.

@kathartik: Xbox Live and pro gaming are two different things dude... Anyone who talks or acts like that don't even make it past qualifiers. You ever meet a profesional gamer before?

@Lemming To The Sea: How does it ruin them? Profesional players don't play online with randoms. Mowing down newbies does nothing to increase their skill level.

Alot of you seem to be horribly misinformed and needlessly bash pro gaming everytime anything about it is posted on Kotaku. Where do you get your facts from? Fox news?

cheesecake000

There can be only one. This isn't the NFL or Futball, there isn't enough room in this very nitch market for so many different leagues and stars.

huginn - No I will not give you a hug!

That's a little sad. I mean, I've never been a part of any professional events, but seeing that they exist makes me feel like someone out there is taking gaming seriously--maybe it's dumb, but the fact that someone can play video games for a living, doing more than just "pwning t3h nubs" and actually making a career out of what they love doing, gives me a little hope for the future of gaming. Not all of us can be programmers and developers, but then again, not all of us can be professional gamers. Hell, I sure can't. The fact that someone out there can be, though, makes me feel like gaming might be taking that step beyond just the "kid shoots friend in face, had played GTA at some point" FOX News headlines, turning into a legitimate art, or a legitimate sport. Of course, with the responses this post has garnered, we seem to need internal support right now a lot more than we need external support, before we could even think to take on the preconceptions and stereotypes of gamers propagated by many news outlets and political figures.

Veit

@Fnor:

"General ennui was not mentioned as a factor."

DeLoRtEd1

@DeLoRtEd1: Again, apparently they don't. Supply and demand . . . .

Fnor

@Diesel_Power:
"What's so entertaining about watching other people play sports when I can play these sports myself."

People like watching the best play. The End.

DeLoRtEd1

Whats so entertaining about watching other people play video games when I can play these games myself.

Diesel_Power

Some of these comments are disgusting. Some of you are actually glad this has been shut down? Seriously. Pro gaming is very entertaining if you play games competitively.

And what's wrong with competition?

I don't like sports very much - but that doesn't mean I'm glad that the Super Bowl is canceled due to rain.

DeLoRtEd1

@lRyul: It's entertainment, yes. Entertainment that nobody really wants. That is why these leagues are failing.

Fnor

I think this is going to upset a lot of Counter-Strike gamers as this means the CAL leagues have probably shut down as well.

Nirolak

With a lame icon like that, how could they not have shut down?

Krytha

Makes me happy to see another one go.

I wish they would stop putting big money behind gaming tournaments, because competition kills games that would be very fun such as First Person Shooters (the entire genre lumped as one) or Guitar Hero.

Lemming To The Sea

I'll inform you guys on eSports/competitive gaming.

CPL was a very shoddy business. Angel hosed many European teams out of their winnings, and many teams from 2005 still haven't even been payed here in America. Being as shady as he was, this shut down was seeing for a few years.

As far as what gamer4250 stated, most glitches that give an "unfair" advantage to a certain side or person are banned in leagues. Most exploits that are allowed increase the level of play required to stay up with the big boys.

If you have attended a major LAN event for games such as CS, CoD, SF, SSB, Halo, and etc. you would see that competitive gaming isn't some "joke".

Don't judge something that you haven't ever been a part of. Pro gaming is simply entertainment just like any sport. Granted the athletic ability isn't required for physical sports, but things like hand-eye coordination, knowledge of the game, tactics, strategy, and simply out smarting your opponent are all factors needed to be a pro gamer.

lRyul

The CPL surely was the most prestigious one.

I still hate pro gaming. It's sad. I get much more fun out of "pwning" noobs in public than playing really competitively.

Candlejack

Eh....

I agree with most of the people above me in that...Pro Gaming Leagues are kinda worthless. That's my own opinion. I know we have hardcore gaming 'n stuff....but I just never really got the gist of why to take it seriously enough to give 1000's of dollars to winners and stuff. Yeah, a career of gaming would sound great, but honestly, most of that money goes to traveling the road and stuff.

...It's matched with cosplaying in bad-ness.... (Not a fact, but an opinion. ....)

Mesren_Makai

I won't miss it, pro gaming in general just seems wrong. Feeding these kids egos because they can "pwn n000bz" at halo 3 and CoD4 (and seemingly nothing else) just seems lame...

kathartik

@gamer4250: As far as I understand, MLG prohibits the use of exploits and stuff.

kojirodensetsu

Video gaming is not a sport.

Diesel_Power