definitely a double standard but there is one store here in the states (in illinois specifically) that carries porn. I'm not talking about the playboy and penthouse dvd's either full on porn. it's a electronics store called frys (kinda like compusa but the stores HUGE)!

freespeech

"The AO rating would mean that the game wouldn't be approved by console makers, and major retailers like Wal-Mart wouldn't carry it. There's obviously a double standard at work here - with movies getting greater freedom than games. Not exactly fair, is it?"

Well it's not fair, but a lot of this generations perspective is that games are for kids.. So is animation. No it's not really fair, but I don't think anything will change for around another 50 years to be honest. (thats why we have to turn to japan for all the kick ass animation. Vampire Hunter D)

Microsoft needs to at least get its act together. Were going to start moving in a new direction, or we have already you could probably say, where young males.. 20 to 25 are going to be playing more games. And were going to want more mature themes.. (By this I mean story, and sexual content. We've had violence for a long time already)

Now I am not saying stick content in for the heck of it. But if it goes along with the story, or adds spice. Add it. It's just a way to develop the world of that particular game more.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.

--Core--

Men have long disliked trolls and elves!

GOLD5

Well this game just went from not on my radar to the top of the list. Sword slashing, and sex with hookers. How could you go wrong?

cybereality

We need more games that include sexual activity.

Coyotegrey

Sex in games is sex in art.

PsycheDiver

@Tom Ohle - CDP RED:

I hate US authority policy.

hefferj05

I also would prefer for 'my' fictional kids to see sex then violence. Sex is natural (not counting fringe stuff) while I have never seen a real life decapitation and would not want my kids to be desensitized about that sort of thing. Europe has it right to censor violence more heavily over sex.

Besides, all the money you can save over not having to order Skinemax in Europe! Just turn on the public channels after a certain time of night.

Turael

lol... I love how all of you guys talk about "tasteful expression" and all of this other crap, but what we're talking about here is a guy who goes around in a game, has sex with hookers, and then gets a card as a memory of his conquest.

Give me a break... this is no more tasteful or "natural" than slashing off a person's head with a sharp blade.

I'm also pretty sure you all wouldn't be so thrilled if the tables were turned and you could get a shot of a guy's ass and card showing his wang hanging out.

goddessakasha

being foerign im all for slashing up hookers after enjoying a naughty fun time, plus i get my money back.

Go Team Venture

Ok, I don't understand. Is it already known that "The Witcher" would get an AO rating on consoles, or merely conjecture?

It seems fashionable to bash the ESRB these days. I know there are strange anomalies here and there and the occasional over reaction, but for the most part I think they're doing a pretty good job.

MNSpectre

@DarkElf:
I found it really telling years ago when Radiohead put out their (cartoon) video for "Paranoid Android:" In the USA, they blurred the breasts on the mermaids. In Canada, they zoomed in a bit on the guy who cut his arms and legs off so you wouldn't see the dismemberment and left the mermaids alone.

fuchikoma

@Roto13: Yes, though it requires a Martini.

Slatz_Grobnik

That's true. Maybe it can be one of gaming's "South Parks" in the way it pushes the envelope a little further for "objectionable content" though. Push it too far (Postal, Manhunt, maybe Mortal Kombat) and there will be a public backlash, however small. Push it a bit at a time (God of War, Mass Effect) and people see that it's not that shocking and the medium gets a little more leeway for expression. (With of course, even smaller backlashes, but they fade away pretty fast.)

fuchikoma

@kingross: The Witcher has decapitations and I'm pretty sure you can cut off limbs as well.
It's not quite as bloody as Gears of War though. Due to the lack of shotguns, people don't explode in TW.

The best reason to choose The Witcher over Gears of War is because GoW's story is basically big testosterone stereotypes fighting big testosterone aliens, while TW deals more with social and political issues and also has some very interesting choices during the game that the story actually reacts to. ;)

PlanHex

Is it even possible to tastefully screw a hooker?

Roto13

@TheShape: The difference is really in the things that will get you an NC-17 rating. You need to have a really explicit sex scene in your movie to get that rating -- and you're absolutely right: it's usually a kiss of death financially. In games, however, a combination of violence and nudity (to the levels we had in The Witcher internationally) would have warranted an AO rating -- we're not talking about penetration or even visible sex. Even in Europe, the sex scenes are still really hidden behind the uncensored gotta-collect-em-all card :). It's just nudity.

Tom Ohle - CDP RED

The ESRB needs to be abolished and a new rating system put in that is, oh, I don't know, fair, has set standards and doesn't arbitrarily give out ratings with no justification. It's one of the most corrupt rating systems in the world and as bad as the old Comic Book Code if you ever read comics.

Manhunt 2 didn't change drastically from the AO version to the M version. You still bash peoples brains in, strangle, eviscerate and mutilate everyone you see. They remove something simple like a boob shot or an implied rape or other sexualized action and its magically a different game that shouldn't be AO.

Hell, the ESRB doesnt even fucking play the games. They watch movies of the games being played.

KirbyMorph

I think the double standard is not as bad of pronounced as Mr Ashcraft puts it. In fact, pretty much the same thing happens to movies that are rated NC-17 (the equivalent of a AO rating in games):

- Most movie theaters won't show it (for games, it would be like not having any console that would play it)

- Major retailers won't carry it. (I've never seen any porn or even slightly erotic content (books, cd, dvd or games) on sale at Walmart)

Music can have the same problem to a lesser extent. Some albums with offensive lyrics or cover art can get censored or edited just to be sold at Walmarts. So you end up with a "Walmart version" of a given album.

TheShape

@Highlander Wolf:

haha, so true. This country is so backwards when it comes to sex and nudity. A natural and necessary human activity is the worst possible thing anyone can be exposed to....ever. And god forbid someone see a nipple or *GASP* a penis. Nevermind that ever single person on earth has one or the other (or both). Its funny that we really have not come very far at all in the last 15 years either. Remember that Simpson's where the town is all up in arms over the statue of David? We are pretty much still at the same place we were then. If only we could somehow take the European acceptance of sex and merge it with the American acceptence of violence we'd be all set.

Gray665

Like comics, the videogame industry needs to take a slow approch to this. We know what you can get away with now, in context. stuff like Mass effects tasteful scenes, God of wars topless nudity, and even killer 7's bouncing on a paralyzed guys lap while moaning and screaming.

the industry needs to find the limits, and slowly push them, all while educating parents and retailers about the proper audiance for such games.

Whats odd is there are some honest to god porn games with massive followings, such as To Heart or Fate/Stay Night.

mrantimatter

(.)(.)

rainofwalrus [XBL]

Ooh, sex in a game? Call Fox News!

SeanBradley

The game is already toned down for the States and some people have shipped the game from Europe just to see Dx9 nipples.

Mara

@Crazy_Buffet_Fanboy: lol not at all. I just find it very important to draw a clear line between personal religious beliefs and the institutionalization of religious beliefs.

Institutionalization, now theres a word that makes me feel like a smarty-pants :D

Dauragon C. Mikado

obviously, no one massages the man meat to people gettin decapitated (well the majority of people at least), but boobs on the other hand. parents just dont want man-sauce left on the controller is all.

this is my explanation for the hate towards sex in videogames.

pandafresh

I never quite understood why violence and killing people in any art form is alright while sex -which is in fact used to make people or just to get pleasure without hurting anyone- is seen as a morally wrong thing.

I remember laughing out loud about the Hot Coffee "scandal" . GTA, a game where you can kill anyone on the street and see it but god forbid you try to make love.

Same with The Witcher. You kill countless guys in the game, but showing a boob makes it for adults?? News flash everybody, the first thing we see in this world is an inverted vagina, provided you where born with your eyes open, and the tit is our best friend afterwards.

DarkElf

Maybe you're just joking, but there's a difference between believeing in God and believeing in a political organization that claims to represent God.

Anyway, jubblies FTW!

Billkwando

@Dauragon C. Mikado: i bet you feel real smart when you get to say "organized religion"

Crazy_Buffet_Happens

@KofreZ Portuguese do it better!: It's mostly due to religious backgrounds. Organized religion is very good at letting you know that if it feels good, it's bad for you. Sex feels good, thus it must wrong and naughty. Getting puched in the face doesn't, so thats okay.

Dauragon C. Mikado

I'll never understand america's prudence towards anything remotely connected to sex, but complete lack of worry about anything related to violence (gross exageration I know).

I mean I can't help but wonder what would the reaction would be over that whole european film festival promo (the let's come together), if it passed in the middle of the afternoon over there in the states like it did here in my neck of the woods.

KofreZ Portuguese do it better!

@Velops: I think sensitivity to violent content varies between countries in Europe. I suppose you're thinking about germany?

Yin

@psycoking:

The answer is simple to that question psycoking... the AO rating exists in the US to provide a ban on games that the console manufacturers, politicians and retail outlets require when no official ban rating could exist in such an environment.

There is an unspoken agreement between all the companies involved that this is the case. I've said this before on kotaku and many other places. There's no effective difference between a country that has a ban rating and a country that has no ban rating but all the links in the chain refuse to carry one of the ratings... the difference is only in the minds of those people who are indoctrinated to believe unquestioningly in the unregulated market and freedom of speech...

:/

Duoae

It is very dangerous to assume that Europe is more evolved when it comes to censorship. Europeans are much more sensitive to violent content than in the United States.

Velops

@danzigeevil: Lube and lots of it

Not coming from personal experience or anything.

Dioxen

God bless you, Europe. The Old Country has always had a more mature attitude about the beautiful and saucier elements of human expression.

That being said, I just cannot get into the whole Rocco Siffredi (spelling?) style of Euro pron.

How exactly are you going to fit those two midgets and the electrolux vaccum cleaner hose into that orifice again?

danzigeevil

@Highlander Wolf:

rofl.

joelface

How come a game like Conan could be on consoles with topless sex slaves who wear g-strings and bend over in front of you and say sexual suggestive things could avoid all the attention?

Oh that's right, because it didn't sell well.

BTW, the tits in that game...PRICELESS! Finally, a game with a REAL reward. (The Guy Game is excluded)

DimmuJed2

Double standard unfair? Hallo, video games let you force teh sehx on wimmins.

[kotaku.com]

Xiedo

@psycoking: keep reading kotaku everyday and you will eventually see the light.

Crazy_Buffet_Happens

Well we europeans get the Boobies and while you get the gore... i'll have to admit that i prefer the Boobs ;)

Tokoyama

Blame it on the Puritans, pretty much the origin of America's enduring sexual repression. I'm beginning to understand why they were kicked out of Europe... or did they leave willingly...? ARh. Back to Wikipedia for me. Puritans suck. 'Nuff said.

Highlander Wolf

So a game that received an M rating on the PC would receive an AO rating if released for consoles? That seems rather unfair, considering that both games would have the same content and both be rated by the ESRB. I don't see why the rating would change based upon the system they were played on. Or is the ESRB suggesting that console gamers aren't mature enough and need the extra protection of a ratings boost?

psycoking

Tasteful is a euphemism for stopping short of two dogs humping on the lawn while someone goes to get a hose. It doesn't mean they've cracked the girl-code for making screwing mysterious and magical.

deathbunny

The double standard comes from the notion that ALL KIDS play ALL GAMES, which is perceived to be true by the general public. We all know that this is becoming less true everyday, that's what this whole ratings system is for right?

I don't think it's THAT different from the movie industry though. There's a fine line where an explicit sex scene in a movie draws the infamous NC-17 rating, so maybe it's closer than what you're suggesting.

commandercacho

I would much rather my kids watch porno than something along the lines of 300. The same goes with games. Id be much more inclined to let them play The Witcher than Gears of War.

kingross

Reminds me of the time I visited Toronto and saw "An American Werewolf in London" on regular tv. I didn't know the movie had boobies until that point.

Really though I think were finally starting to cross over into people realizing that there are more demographics than 10-17 year old boys playing games. It all just comes down to money. Once the cost to develop a game vs profit margin far outdistances the traditional making a movie and hoping for a $30 mil opening weekend, the people with money to make it happen will pick up on it. Then it's going to be a blood bath orgy and I can't wait.

Pornosaur

Double standard is perhaps a slightly one-sided way of looking at it - gaming is a far younger medium that film...just look at the censorship that has been put on films over the years, movies like Clockwork Orange and The Exorcist getting banned for decades etc etc

Gypsie

It's only fair. The big console companies control what gets on their systems, and they can't afford the PR fallout that would occur from publishing a game that had even relatively tasteful sex scenes. Like we saw with Manhunt 2, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all won't publish AO rated games on their systems.

Games are still having trouble getting recognised as legitimate art forms, but perceptions are changing and the gaming generation is growing up. Sooner or later the crowd still suspicious of games will be in nursing homes and we'll have free reign!

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

I have no problem whatsoever with sex in video games, but Witcher being tasteful? Thats another story... Good for them in pushing boarders and questioning double standards, but next time make it a little less cheesy by removing those "playing cards" of virtual conquests.

Philudo