@JustThisGuy: good. I was going for the "dumb" look.

rainofwalrus [XBL]

The USA army are PS fanboys : P

JamieA

How exactly does a 7 or 8 (whatever) core processor get by with only a 512kb L2 cache.

If it were a conventional computer or being used for conventional purposes, yes, it would suffer significantly. Only the 'chief' core (PPE) can even access that l2 cache, and that thing's going to lose in a fight with most of the better P4s. It's not supposed to be used as a conventional computer, though.
Of course, each secondary core (the seven SPEs) wouldn't even be able to use conventional cache well : it's all in-order processing with a fairly small number of simultaneous operations per core, which doesn't benefit much from cache.

The thing is, each of those seven SPEs has its own memory (not cache), which operates very fast : you end up with 1.7 megabytes of on-chip memory running so fast it can be predictably accessed every few clock cycles. Even better, since it's not cache, it's also not automatic, and you can decide what's going to go in there from a programming viewpoint rather than relying on internal hardware to decide for you.

gattsuru

Haha! Sony loses money every console they sell. Their profits come from games. So, the U.S. Air Force is going to make Sony lose a crapload of money. Suck it Sony haha. Wii60 FTW!

todde7

It Psy-Ops. They want to see how much bullshit a person can swallow while still maintaining hope that glory is just around the next bend.

Amazing-Steve

BS ALERT! BS ALERT! Some government officials want to get their "game on" at taxpayer expense...

pupaboy3

@rainofwalrus [XBL]: Will you please stop misusing the term "logic?" It's giving me a headache, and it certainly isn't making you look any smarter. Thank you.

JustThisGuy

@gattsuru: by your own logical process, this statement "Intel currently makes no comparable processors" is false. Nice try tho.

rainofwalrus [XBL]

All this talk of the Cell processor reminds me of somthing.

How exactly does a 7 or 8 (whatever) core processor get by with only a 512kb L2 cache.

I mean ... doesn't it significantly hurt the speed of the processor to make the cores wait for memory to be swapped in and out of the tiny cache?

brent_w

@quen: Sony, Toshiba, and IBM.

brent_w

They couldn't you know ... buy the processors directly?

brent_w

I totally call shens on this. Whatever it is they want to do in their "research" has to be a violation of Sony's terms of use. Meaning, in order for them to do this research without giving Sony the right to sue, they need to sign a special license agreement, bla bla bla bla.

Bottom line: This has to be a marketing hoax.

BtownDesignGuy

@Cdestroyer127: The government isn't in the business of developing complex microprocessors - why spend two billion of your tax money on the job when Sony are ready to lose the cash anyway.

The reason for buying PS3s is that it's the cheapest way to get Cell processors in working systems. So they only have 7 SPEs? Whatever; an IBM blade server with two 8-SPE Cells cost $18k at about the same time as PS3 launch (maybe cheaper now but...)

quen

wow.. interesting.. i wonder how many are going to be sent to fort meade?

detraya

This takes console wars to the next level

FOXHOUNDER

@GregoriusH:

Most peoples phones have more computing power than NORAD did in the 60s you don't need PS3s to launch nukes lol.

baysideSxoc

Isn't the Cell more adept at curing aids than 3D computer graphics?

Eitherways, I still recall those "PS2 is a nuclear weapon" press releases that Sony used to pass around... sure Sony, we all know what a graphics and computation powerhouse the PS2 was.

zztopp

@RSGun: Nice.

Erwin

@Aflack: Likes slushies: Well, Cell doesn't go together too well with common x86 computer parts, so by buying PS3 that allows Linux installation they save themselves the trouble of engineering a whole computer around the CPU.

ara

Since it's the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory, they are probably using these for number crunching simulations like Folding@Home maybe?

But isn't Sony still loosing money on every PS3 sold?

Maybe Sony could look at this as charity towards US military I guess.

Dir_en_grey

US Airforce is FAIL!

balls187

6 years? I think that estimate if too optimistic.

If we were talking about meaningful quantum computing in the average home, or even to replace conventional computers, I'd agree with you. Those uses are close to 40 years off, give or take half a decade. It's also not really clear if they're ever going to take off heavily for normal use, given other competing technologies.

But quantum computers don't need to be as fast as a normal processor to be useful for cryptographic purposes. For cryptographic purposes, they only need to be reasonably good at finding prime numbers. Normal computers can only use the general number field sieve, which while a very efficient way to find primes for conventional math, still can take years with a supercomputer or even array of supercomputers. You'd be looking at 8400 MIPS-years for a 512-bit key, and that goes up extremely fast as you go to longer keys.

Quantum computers aren't stuck with GNFS, though. They can use a system called Shor's Algorithm (usually modified), which can solve for highly probably factors within polynomial time. That's a really, really good thing, bringing us from mip-millenia to 0 (log(N)^3) time. Doing so requires a rather hefty supply of qubits (usually 2N minimum, although more is obviously better). Given that we've been messing with only five or ten qubits at a time, that sounds like a long way off.

Scaling up qubits, however, follows something similar to Moore's law : it increases exponentially, and in very high cost situations, is really just a matter of throwing money at it. In six years, it'll be pretty likely to see 50-100 qubit systems in laboratories, and scaling those together is an economic and engineering issue, but not a problem with physical laws. Given the immense pressure to see it made public, you're likely to end up seeing governmental agencies working on larger scale ones, as a Cray to the average 386 was a while ago.

There are ways to produce cryptographically secure keys that can't be busted through prime factorization, but they tend to be very messy and use one-time keys. The result is extremely secure, but not feasible for commercial transactions.

gattsuru

Crab....battle!

Therin

"Lt. Brown?"
"Sir?"
"Time for "Cell Assessment""
"Cell asse- ohhh, right on sir!"

*4 hour marathon of Warhawk*

tehFluffz

@SSJPabs: The 360's chip is a modified PowerPC chip, a line which has always had heat issues. The Cell is based on a Power Architecture branch, but has a markedly different design from the PowerPC chip. Honestly, I think that MS could have saved a lot of hassle if they just went with off-the-shelf Intel processors.

While the Cell is exciting tech, the designers at IBM also had the luxury of not complying to the standard x86 framework. I often wonder what type of stuff Intel and AMD could push out if they didn't have to adhere to an outdated and outmoded architecture that's several decades old.

Ah, good ol' IBM: the only true winner that will emerge from this gen's console war.

JustThisGuy

You know what that means. Ace Combat is coming to the PS3 and they need their pilots to train on 'em.

FIRST!!!

@gattsuru: Yea you have a valid point, but i lost all interest in the ps3 since i took a deep look in pc gaming, with the prices of many components dropping like stones and new super powerfull cards at a low price (9600gt and radeon 38xx) in a year the console gaming will be very outdated compared with what we will see in the pc area...

TOCATL

@Erwin: Iran*

RSGun

that's 300 more PS3s in volume sold... with 0 attach

reptile168

Oh this is the same stuff as when terrorists made a server for missile guidance out of old PS2s.
T~S
www.kotakuite.com

Tyle-Shananigin

What? They could just buy the chip alone from Toshiba...

Someone just wants to disguise the entertainment factor. I swear at least one of them is not for research purposes...

Ultrasinc

I also heard the Airforce was going to attempt to buy 400 360's to attempt to heat a room to the suns surface temperature, but they decided to just make another atom bomb because it has a less failure rate. =D

KYLE_ELYK

- insert 300 movie joke -

Gambare

Not surprising really. The PS3 is the cheapest way to get access to the cell processor.

I'm sure the soldiers would like it to be used for games though. From what I hear the popular gaming stuff in Iraq/Afghanistan (excluding pc games) is the PSP and Xbox because they dont have enough 360s or controllers.

NutManIV

@Erwin:

ROFL!

Anyway, I keep reading about PS3s being used for experiments and shit, guess Sony's helping in more ways than they planned. Sure Sony's happy, 300 PS3s sold just like that.

dgonchild

@SSJPabs: Nah, it wasn't for heat. They managed to figure that part out. Sony wanted to "increase manufacturer yield". Basically, if a Cell chip (or a large number of Cell chips) were made and one of the cores had a defect, they would still be able to use the chip with seven functional cores in their PS3s. So they wouldn't have to throw it out. Pretty shitty, but Sony was already losing money on that first batch of PS3s... if it helped them cut costs then, well, more power to them. But it's still shitty.

Well, that's the story anyway. Who knows? Maybe the 8th core works, is sentient, and is constantly chatting with all the other PS3s on the internet in a world-wide hive-mind network...

(highlander wolf goes back to smoking his weed)

Highlander Wolf

I think they should just use it to play videogames.

ChiChi_BBQ

@Highlander Wolf: You think they disabled a core for purposes of heat? The 360 can burn out right quick...

SSJPabs

@nox:
@Doshu:

This is interesting. Lesser known fact is that the PS3's Cell processor is gimped. It supposedly has 8 cores, but for manufacturing reasons ($$), they've disabled one of the cores, permanently. As far as I know, the PS3 is the only machine that uses gimped Cell chips. This must be the "specific architecture" that the Air Force is talking about. A fully-enabled Cell processor should be much more powerful.

The Air Force wouldn't be doing anything revolutionary with anything less than the best chips it can get. So getting PS3 Cell chips makes no sense. Unless this is all about...

ANTI-CYBERTERRORISM.

The PS3 can be set up to run Linux. Groups of PS3s also run very well together (see: Folding@home). An individual has access to a very large amount of computer processing power for very low cost by hooking up a bunch of cheap PS3s.

My guess is: the Air Force is evaluating the PS3 as a machine which might be used for hacking by average joe American. Though why this falls under the jusrisdiction of the Air Force is beyond me.

(highlander wolf is a paranoid, and will now resume smoking his weed)

Highlander Wolf

I wonder why they needed a PS3 Memory Card adapter with every unit...

Are they planning on playing PS2 games on 40GB units? Or are they just for playing PS1 games?

Are they aware that the 40GBs dont have the memory card slots they ordered?

Cell research indeed. Pretty funny though. I want 300 PS3.

Korbei

Why dont they just ask IBM for the cell?

NoBullet

Reminds me of that story about Saddam buying several thousand Playstation 2's to calculate missile trajectories, or something. Of course, that was just an urban myth.

Phbbt107

@Frank: They will however make us safer! Safety first :)

Albanian_Killa

@lishi: The Air Force loves Sony and wants to contribute to the PS3's momentum?

Albanian_Killa

Cover story. These are just replacements for the 300 HD DVD players they bought 2 weeks ago. Microsoft offered them a batch load cheap.

SorenKier

Called it! I knew the government was hiding the cosmic cube for real, and now they're going to use the 300 PS 3's to create a spartan-like Transformer army. All your base belong to us!

rzac30

Well, that makes 300 PS3s that won't actually be used to play games...

Frank

something bug me, why they didn't just ordered 300 cells from IBM?

lishi

Next you'll see the Air Force making strategy maps and designing them with a SIXAXIS. lol PS3 is taking over lol

and just google cell processor for god sakes if you need a new cell photo lmao

Albanian_Killa

It's official. Stargate is actually a true to life documentation of the secret Air Force operation regarding outer reaches contact and explorations. They want to use the Cell processor to help with deep space battle cruisers and gliders capable of atmospheric operations as well as deep space operations.

That or they're nearly successful in creating full cyborg prosthetic bodies capable of volatile combat deployment and need to research technologies to properly digitize our brain structures so that we can transfer to cyber brains.

Black-Dog-Howls

The joke is: the Airforce has no idea that none of these 40Gb PS3s ship with rumble controllers. The machines are worthless! True story.

mariospants

One can assume the airforce probably wants to make its own PS3 modchip. That would be awesome.

Altima NEO

Hmmm. Wonder if this has anything to do with their UCAV program.

Nexus6

Haha poor Lair. At the butt of every control related joke. Not that it doesn't deserve every bit of it.

Wolfers

@gattsuru:
6 years? I think that estimate if too optimistic.

gamadaya

@gamadaya: Heh.

baked ham

The Airforce found a group of 300 dragons in Afghanistan. They were just waiting for the controller patch to let the training commence.

Final

Yippee. Not only do my tax dollars go towards buying a bunch of Americans Playstation 3's indirectly (I assume that a lot of those rebate checks will go to this end, based on what I've read on the message boards), but now my tax dollars are going to buy the Air Force some Playstation 3's directly. Oh well. My mother's brother is a very high ranking Air Force officer. He should be retired right now but he's a workahaulic and for some reason he's still operating. I wonder if he knows anything about this. I guess it doesn't matter, He probably couldn't/wouldn't tell me anything aabout it if he did anyway.

baked ham

Next they'll ask for a couple hundred 360's and Wiis, as well as some TVs and surround sound systems.

gamadaya

Better deal? , isnt better deal to buy the processors alone to the manufacturer, or some intel or amd equals ?...

Intel currently makes no comparable processors: Cell is intended to run many different things very quickly, based around a single chief processor that 'primes' each minor processor and is complete enough to run an operating system. Intel's processors have, at most, a few equal processors that have a highly reduced instruction set. AMD (through ATI) and nVidia make similar processors for graphics cards, but each subcomponent is highly specialized for graphics work, making it inefficient for a lot of different methods.

Of course, that sort of build is a PitA to code. Nothing's free.

You can't simply purchase the chips themselves from IBM. You'd get them cheap, but you'd have no interface, no known test methods, and not even the boards that the devices are built on. The military could ask Mercury systems to build a boatload of boards for them, but that's never efficient at small scales, and none of the Cell-based server or rackmount equipment I've encountered compares to the costs of the PS3.

To make this clear, the United States Air Force has previously fielded aircraft which use a series of 33-bit ATM processors ("the extra bit's for security"), and not only ATM processors, but outdated ones that they had to bring a production plant back into business for just those aircraft.

I doubt this is for cryptography, though. Quantum computing is the be-all end-all for everything current in that field, and while it's not doing much effective right now, it will be in a half-dozen years; no military research lab can bring a product to market that fast.

My bet would be general purpose graphics and image analysis and communications, places where conventional processors aren't really the most effective and graphics cards tend to be limited in capability and costly in terms of power and space.

gattsuru

Sony's gonna be pissed when we invade Japan using PS3-powered Metal Gears.

tzaketh

We just need these 300 PS3's to take on a country with 1,000,000 Wii's, and it will be the Spartans vs the Persians all over again.

J-Fro

I hope someone told them that Sony took out backwards compatibility ...

jayntampa

@PATSCRU: They turn 360 degrees? So they end up right where they started? lol

Limey

I can hear Kaz's laughter roaring in the distance...

Vidril

@rljohn: Not anymore. They are breaking even.

Apparently, SkyNet jokes are the new cake joke.

ceilingFANBOY: now with 100% more fanboy

@J-Fro: then wii24 becomes aware after loads and loads of ssbb and mario kart wii online matchs and fights back the ps3 awareness XD...

TOCATL

What will they do with these cells? Play Crysis?

PeterQC

"Home goes online mid 2008. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. The cell begins to learn at a geometric rate. PS3 becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug...PS3 fights back!"

J-Fro

Won't Sony lose money by selling these to the Army? lol.

rljohn

so, in other words, USAF buys 300 Cell processors from Sony instead of IBM, Sony ends up paying for 20% of the cost.

willyolio

As big a Sony fanboy as i am, i still feel the timing's a little off.

rameses2

@Jericho114:

The primary designs were IBM's, and the rest of the PS3's primary components are far from Japanese too.

Out of all consoles so far, there have been only 6 that have had primarily Japanese tech: The NES, SNES, Saturn, PS, DC, and the PS2.

SG79

The PS3 has many cells in it's cell processors. We need certain cell processors to evaluate the specific quantity of cells in a cell processor. Sony provides the required number of cells at a specific acceptable cell cost.

TRAMS_AM

@LittleBigPlaneteer: naa there is enough pc gaming rig power to counter ir...

TOCATL

@MysteryMachine: They ran out of them...

Better deal? , isnt better deal to buy the processors alone to the manufacturer, or some intel or amd equals ?...

TOCATL

I just want to say: This is how Skynet becomes active

That is all

LittleBigPlaneteer

So, does Sony count all of these consoles sold to various research groups and such in their console sales? At least now they don't lose money on all of those groups buying massive amounts of consoles that will have a zero attach rate. Sony had to be all like "oh hell, not another one" when some group decided to buy 300 systems that Sony was losing $300 each on.

ceilingFANBOY: now with 100% more fanboy

I guess pilots need SOMETHING to do on those 12 hour missions...

ShirtGuyDom

I think it's a no brainer why the military is interested in this sort of stuff.
The PS3 excels at Cryptography.

The other aspect is the reliability. The PS3 is rock solid when doing this sort of stuff. For the same reason, I doubt they'd even consider the 360. IIRC, the navy has already had one warship dead in the water from a BSOD episode.

Doshu

@Aflack: Likes slushies: Make that 300.

Aflack: Likes slushies

Why not just buy $300 cell processors?

Aflack: Likes slushies

Well done Sony! I wonder what the attach rate will be!

tufty

Somebody...ANYBODY! FIND ME JOHN CONNOR!

AverageJoes

Haha I wonder what Japan thinks about their technology aiding the American army. I bet the Japanese already have an entire army running on cell processors.

Jericho114

WE have to buy PS3 for the prosessor, doesn't the government develop more advanced technology for stuff like this?

Cdestroyer127

replace cooking mama with locoroco. or patapon. Or whatever. I don't know portable games that well.

deathbunny

And where are those missile guidance systems based on PS2 emotion engines?

MysteryMachine

@MonkeyBiz:

with their RIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDGGGGGGGGEEEEE-RRAAAAACCCCCEEEEERRRR rocket

MonkeyBiz

I think I know what's happening here. America's Army for Home--with a Barracks like environment where you and your friends can go and get yelled at and do pushups before going in game!

'Is this your Jelly Donut Trophy, Private Pyle?'
'Yes Sir!'
'Are Trophies allowed in America's *Army* Private Pyle?!'
'No Sir!'
'Are YOU allowed to *play* COOKING MAMA, PRIVATE PYLE?!!'
'Sir, No Sir!'
'And Why NOT?!'
'Because I'm an adult sir!'
'BECAUSE YOU ARE A OLDER THAN 6, PRIVATE PYLE! ... Private Pyle has dishonored himself and dishonored the platoon! I have tried to help him, but I have failed! I have failed because you have not helped me! You people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! From now on, when Private Pyle shares recordings of popular TV shows, I will not punish him, I will punish all of you, and the way I see it, ladies, you owe me for Family Guy - Blue Harvest. Now Get on your Faces!'

deathbunny

@Erwin:

They are going to strike Al-Qaeda for massive damage

MonkeyBiz

POWERFUL ENOUGH TO LAUNCH NUCLEAR WEAPONS

GregoriusH

I can see them using it in their jets and letting those who wanted to join the army from games an option to use a gamepad or remote play through the psp.

ittekimasu

"The Sony marketing coup disguised as purchasing request..."

Cynicism thy name is McWhertor. *bows*

godot

@PATSCRU: if they did a 360 they'd be back where they ended up flying toward said robot. WE NEED TO WARN THEM THERE GOING TO BE DISTORYED!!!!!

mossberg

"We have heard about this game... Warhawk. The Pentagon wants to use it to train our troops."

Part-Time-Viking

You would think they would buy something that had a more complete cell... you know one that has all 8 cores.

nox

Pimp my plane with a PS3?

Morphine16

Don't forget extra controllers!

subterfunk

Whaaaa? I guess it's a good way to get rid of those 40GB.

goldwings

What about 300 copies of Lair?

JackTretton

I'd love to see JT's reaction to this.
"Games are teaching our military to kill!"

ShaggE

By "assessment" do they mean taking a trip to bootleg citay!? ;)

Nah, I give Sony credit where it's due. If their Cell processor can help the greater good aside from satisfying gaming needs, then power to 'em.

Random J

Dear Sony:

I would like to have you send me 300 PS3's. I am going to use them to test the human condition and see if I can somehow play all 300 at one time.

Thank you,
Narynan

P.S. Please to be including 300 1080P HDTV's as well.
Kthx

Narynan

"or training pilots under the harsh control conditions of Lair"

Excellent line, that! :D

Maleficence

of course they did

PS3 DEFLECTS BULLETS!!1

[fanboys-online.com]

greygecko

Lan Party at the USAF HQ!

Darkest Daze

SKYNET IS IMMINENT!!

JackTretton

@PATSCRU: But if they turned 360 degrees they would still be facing the same direction. I still laughed though.

J-Fro

Blame the Air Force if the PS3 outsells the Wii or 360 in March!

PaulHunter

well maybe the blue screen of death got annoying in middle of a fight, so linux made sense

ban_hammer

March NPD + 300.

Barbara

why do they call it the xbox 360? because when cell processor-powered robots see them, they turn 360 degrees and fly away

I KID, I KID!!!

PATSCRU

@Erwin: lmao

Sandbox_Emperor

but it only has 512MB of ram! you cant do anything with that!!111sarkazm!!211

slackjawed

Finally the True potential of the cell will be unleashed? I sense World Domination just around the corner ...muwahahaha! *evil sarcastic laugh*

nopposan

I LOVE THIS POST!! It makes no sence what so ever but is sitll awesome..

xpnet

Attack Iraq's weak spot for massive damage.

Erwin

@slackjawed: big things come in small packages.

nopposan

I got a cousin in the air force who is an emerging tech specialist and he told me about all the cool consoles and pc's he gets to mess with. He says they basically reverse engineer all the newest shit to see how they can apply existing technologies to their needs. Almost made me want to join the air force.

Iamtehawesome

We have to install a virus on the PSN to make them think it was a bust. Quick, somebody take out your brain and plug it into the PS3. Its the only way to hack it.

cybereality

They should use this in the next season of Terminator: The Sara Conner Chronicles as how Skynet is built. They already referenced the Turk and being a bunch of PS2s and xboxes......

Mr.SithNinja

Maybe...they plan to load them on planes and drop them on terrorist cells for massive damage.

Purple Dave

They probably want them for either building a super computer, or use in a UAV.

Rintor