@quen: I agree, I would rather see the Shovel Ware assholes pushed to the side and embarassed by Wiiware, than put that crappy shit in stores as physical media. But at the same time Wiiware needs some god damn quality control to keep the games from being total shit.

Wellhereweare

@JediMaster: So? Nintendo stated with the VC that there will be no updates to the classics KEEPING THEM AS CLASSICS!

Wellhereweare

@JediMaster: I agree, and there is no quality control on the VC. Instead of giving us Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, and DK 64, they decide to give us Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for the NES and Toejam and Earl 2.

neoepochx

Sounds like this person's the one "full of shit."

Detha

That's funny, because I've always thought the Wii's primary game library was full of shit. That's why I just sold mine.

karmaghost

So this idiot is saying this crap in front of Rez HD, N+, Geo Wars, Poker Smash and Metal Slug? Retard.

DJ_Sessum

@Eyerox: For ONE WHOLE WEEK two games compete they are plastered on XBL blades so really they have no room to complain when they only share mind share with one other game for a week. Honestly though how do these people think they can compete against TMNT Arcade online anyway? They probably bought it to!

Cueil

There wouldn't be so many ports if so many people didn't buy them. Obviously retro ports sell since for every one person here complaining that ports are crap there are about 20 others downloading Ms. PacMan as we speak.

SimianJones

@eponym: Are people afraid they will buy a retro game without knowing it because they didn't have neat divisions between retro and original? Easy solution. Give them demos in the first place.

The thing that Microsoft did right and no one else seems to understand is that they mandated demos for every XBLA game from day one. That is what made the big difference, not the ratio of bad games or the ratio of shovelware. Customers aren't forced to buy anything to know whether the game is worth playing or not.

The best Nintendo came up with is demo versions on the Brawl disk... that have to be unlocked... and only work for a minute at most. And the best PSN did is sporatic demos for their downloadables. Better, but not 100% every time.

Even if you can't tell the difference in XBLA, just sort by genres and you find what you are looking for pretty fast.

Edge of Blade

@kuraitenshikun: Was that some kind of typo for XML/XNA? XML is not a programming language, it features as a useful component in more or less every platform's development strategy. Microsoft are big in XML (somewhat belatedly) only in the same sense that everyone else is. Any university that didn't cover XML in their courses on related topics would be drastically behind the times.

If you actually meant XNA and are talking specifically about game programming then, er, it's the only game in town, isn't it? As far as I'm aware, neither Nintendo nor Sony offer publicly available, easy to use 'toy' development tools in that vein - so by definition, any university that wants to teach game programming is going to see Microsoft's option as a good one. I seem to recall reading here about a university in Japan that partnered with Nintendo and has a bunch of GameCube devkits - that's all fine and good (though it won't be anywhere near as easy to use as Microsoft's offering, which is important when you have students of varying levels) but do they offer that in general to all universities? If they do, I hadn't heard it.

@this thread: yes, I am amused by Dr. Mario too :) But seriously, I think by response (ignoring the imbeciles who thought Nintendo made this statement, or descended into the usual Wii-doesn't-have-any-games trolling) has to a few parts:

1) WiiWare will be better than XBLA for developers initially because there's less competition (maybe more competition for retro games, but less for new ones), and because the royalty rates are higher. (Not sure whether Wii's larger worldwide userbase is an advantage - it should be in the long run but right now I don't know how that works out when you multiply by the percentage online.)

2) WiiWare is great for the Wii because it provides a mechanism to shame developers who would otherwise have made a handful of minigames for $40 (now they can do the games for $5 each). 'Should have been WiiWare' will probably be a standard line in reviews from now on.

3) Whether XBLA is 'full of shit' or not is another matter and one I don't have an opinion on... It does seem likely that WiiWare will have its fair share of retro games too, though (forget Dr. Mario - Tetris, anyone?) so I think that's a red herring.

quen

@stranger: Why play Ogre Tactics when you can play Final Fantasy Tactics. Seriously, we can do this all day...

Edge of Blade

@etchasketchist: My thoughts exactly. "Indie" game developers are almost always on some moral high-horse, while they put out games that either A)blatantly rip off Geometry Wars, B)blatantly rip off one of the very retro titles they're competing against, or C)suck horribly. I'll take retro over that crap any day.

RawSteelUT

never bought a wii virtual console game and cause of this, probably never going to buy a wiiware game either. my money's in xbla.

wizll

@NutManIV: Are you sure about that? Most of the Virtual Console games are huge. I downloaded a 22 KB NES game and it's suddenly 2 Megabytes? I think that means an N64 game on the service is huge.

Shaoko

@XbhaskarX:

All of those titles are either re-releases or reskins of games that were previously available elsewhere.

Even games like Band of Bugs and Omega Five, specifically designed for XBLA, while decent, are hardly original. Why buy Omega Five when I already know Ikaruga is one of the greatest shmups of all time? Band of Bugs? I'll fire up Tactics Ogre instead, thanks...

stranger

@Itchy (PSN: Kaizoku-ou):

XNA has been around for years, fail to see how that makes MS late to the party on embracing indie development...

While I agree that there's too many ports and rereleases in the grand scheme of the xbla catalog, but I for one really enjoy the access to classic games.

So far as original XBLA titles, very few of them have actually been very good, and even the good ones are reskins of decades old games or rehashes of genres that have been done better by others. Maybe if indie devs gave us something worth getting excited about, and didn't have to overcharge for their content to be profit bearing on LIVE, things would be different.

Right now I can't think of a single indie game on XBLA that isn't just a rehash of an older, better game from years gone by. If that's really the case, then what's so wrong with bringing back the classics? If your concept is original and soundly executed, you have a better chance finding an audience on XBLA than just about any other digital distribution outlet I can think of (not including Steam).

Think if we simply ignored films after their time and had no real historical context for cinema- how many time do you think we'd see the exact same movie get made over and over again... oh , wait. That happens already.

stranger

:/

freakoflink

Fuck Bomberman Live! I'm gonna play Pokemon Ranch!

freakoflink

Whole-heartedly agree.

I'm so sick of XBL games, so unoriginal, rehashed and overpriced. Sony's offerings are infinitely more interesting then MS' and Nintendo's games.

Tuxy79

To say that a competitor's online games library is full of shitty games when you have almost no good games in your console f choice's library is so hypocritical it's laughable. How many good Wii games are there in total, never mind in the VC library? Maybe 5 or so? Total? There are maybe 5 games I would pay money for on the Wii, including the VC and the regular games library. What a numbskull.

Make a good game and people will buy it. Make a lame game and it won't sell well. Sure, there are a few exceptions to this, but by and large, it's true.

Xsid

Bubble wrap simulator. That about sums it up.

wait... no... Joust.
Damnit, now I'm completely conflicted between who Im a fanboy with!

Twgameart1

@Abdar: Quality games and word of mouth don't do enough for sales, for some reason. Big companies producing software that ends up on shelves still have the same problems with that. Psychonauts was a good game. Zack and Wiki was a pretty good game. No More Heroes is excellent. Where are the sales?

If WiiWare titles are going to make it, they're going to need a lot of help. Well, the developers who aren't SquEnix are going to need a lot of help.

Gospel X

Another factor people are forgetting is this "developer" doesn't even have the stones to admit who they are. They bash other people's games but don't want to mention what they are developing. Maybe they're afraid their game will also be "shit" and people will throw this back in their face.

Mr.Waffleton

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": what does that even mean?

StratfordX

Does anyone care about Virtual Console anymore? I see people upset over small PlayStation Store updates every week, but no one complains about the Virtual Console. Nintendo is basically ignoring it, releasing crappy titles week after week.

Squamden

And how can he compare XBLA titles to WiiWare when no WiiWare titles are even out yet. Mark my words WiiWare will be just as full of shovelware as XBLA, if not worse.

Mr.Waffleton

So the fact Wii has essentially no restrictions means XBLA is nothing but shit? Wow this guy is a moron. If anything WiiWare's lack of restrictions means even more shovelware crap will show up than on xBLA.

Mr.Waffleton

A lot of you are missing the point. It's not about having no retro titles. It's about keeping them distinct and separated from the new titles. The Wii does this well by having separate channels for the two.

eponym

btw even though there aren't a whole lot most of the indie games that are on psn are actually very good and very cheap and often become top sellers on the network

escopr

microsoft's live system is just far too controlled of an environment for most indie developers and for many top well known developers as well(epic). The only reason why most publishes are on there is for the popularity.

Unreal tournament 3 for example, which would have already been released in form of disc+download hasn't made it to xbox because microsoft wants control of the mods and pricing of them even if they're meant to be free while sony has a very open policy to thier network where developers can pretty much do as they please. This is a windows direct-x based game that's already seen release on a difficult to develop linux system(ps3) in which sony assisted the development of. Users are able to download maps and transfer them using any storage device they please.

I believe the only thing holding many small developers back from going all out on psn is the hefty staff required to develop for the system although we'll see this change as they realize that they won't be making much on live, unless it's an mmo or fps pc users won't have it unless it's free and wii is just too technically limiting not just graphically but mainly because nintendo won't unlock the sd slots limiting what little space if any that's left on a real gamer's wii.

escopr

@waltjay: Jeff Minter, is that you?

I'm going to have to guess yes. Few devs are as fucking deluded as that moron. Why can't he understand that if he made a worthwhile game, people would buy it?

KaneRobot

XBLA has some good games and a lot of bad games they are to bad XBLA games as Wii is to shitty third party games. Although there is a lot of quality content both in Wii third party games and XBLA arcade.

-AS

Archaic Stigma

Maybe alot of indy developers are putting things on Wii Ware because the Wii has the most sold consoles and offers the highest royalties. Didn't Nintendo say they have sold over 5 million VC games at last year's E3?

BassForever

Whaaaaaaaa? Only 95 more gamez untilziam Chessmastar!!1!

@kuraitenshikun: Good thing too, I didn't think markup language supported 32 player simutaneous online play... Then again, Army of Two doesn't support local LAN co-op. OUCH!

Brackynews

I don't think 'ironic' is a powerful enough word for this topic.

If people want to sell more of their xbla titles then make the frakkin trials better. Why do people insist on making people play the most dull sections of the games as their taster?

Don't treat people like their some sort of beta tester, treat them like a cinema audience. Make it a powerful interactive trailer for all the best bits in the game.

Every developer needs to witness the demo for crackdown. That *sold* the game brilliantly.

It wasn't a slowboat tutorial, it was the game, a slice of the game, sped up so you could have *fun* and when the demo stopped you realised you *missed* that fun.

Jeebus people, sell the games, don't expect them to get bought.

edhe (xbl)

They have a good point about XBLA's top-sellers being retro titles, but does anyone else feel that the WiiWare Channel will be ignored in favor of the Virtual Console for similar reasons? People seem to go with games they want to replay than take a chance with an unknown IP, even if the new game is far superior. The storage factor of the Wii also has me concerned. Imagine the kind of file size restriction on the WiiWare games with only 512MB of storage to work with. It could make XBLA's 150MB size limit look like the fruit of the gods. But, I guess this is just something I'll have try for myself to find out.

ViewtifulJason

@NutManIV: Haven't you even seen Lostwinds?

KM91

@DaiMacculate: you'Re full of shit.

interstate78

Xbox Live Arcade is full of shit?
Castlevania, Rez, Geometry Wars, Bomberman, Pac-Man CE, N+, Prince of Persia, Uno, Catan, Alien Hominid, Marble Blast, Assault Heroes, Carcassonne, Mutant Storm...

What is WiiWare full of?
Nothing.

XbhaskarX

@kennyd1: LOL! Yeah. I actually own 30 XBLA games. Most of them are not remakes. There are still a few I want to buy, but for the most part I get stuff I like. If people aren't buying your game and it has a FREE demo, either your game sucks or you can't make a good demo.

And who says after your game is released you can't do any grass roots advertising or go to public conventions or shows like The Behemoth? Maybe even giving some copies of your game to libraries that have game stations set up for the public, giving more exposure to your game.

peacefuloutrage

Anybody comparing the XBLA retro stuff to the VC...WRONG! The XBLA stuff has been altered, and in most cases is the Arcade version, not the home console version of the game.

Evidence: Contra on XBLA. I'd rather have NO CONTRA AT ALL than the wrong one, personally.

Yeah, there are about 3 good games on XBLA IMO, and only Omega Five is an original game, and it isn't like its a historically awesome shooter or anything.

I can't wait until WiiWare comes out, and hopefully puts it money where these guys mouths are ;)

DaiMacculate

Nice to see how 90% of the comments here COMPLETELY MISS the point. Those comments come from developers, not Nintendo themselves. It's not about what the players experience from the services, it's the developers point of view. And that is evidently that quite some small developers are disappointed by XBLA and Wiiware seems to be more friendly. Hm, I think I heard that before.

Wether that means that Wiiware is going to beat XBLA is up in the air, but I kinda doubt it. But at least the Wii is going to put up some competition in that regard, and competition is always good.

Nirual

Lmao. So do they honestly think the VC won't outsell Wiiware or something? Clueless isn't the word for who ever this tipper is. Not to mention VC is all emulated. So when a deveolper remakes a game for XBLA... at least they are actually remaking it and adding new features. Who ever this guy is, is an idiot. Yeah he has valid points that an old title may have more steam behind it but how does he honestly think thats avoidable on the Wii? Where Nintendo over shines basically everything on it. Mark my words, VC will always outsell Wiiware.

I also don't consider VC to be a "different" entity since you know... its on the same console and people are still going to be buying VC titles over Wiiware titles.

Tiberian

I'm sick of people dissing retro titles. I buy that shit. I like it. Fuck you. Indie game developers are getting to be too much like indie rockers. Too much style and posing and not enough rocking. Don't believe the hype.

etchasketchist

Wii's Virtual Console and Wiiware will probably dominate the XBox 360. PSN lately is not even bad, not expensive, fairly nice. I have been disgusted with XBOX live service for a long time since they ripped me off and come to find out, my XBOX was broken when I bought it even though it continued to work. Returned it and got PS3.

CookieMasterPunk

I think XBL has a great window of opportunity for indy developers. The dashboard blades and market place can provide a lot of exposure for them. I think Microsoft should consider a more proactive approach to Indy developers and support them in the market place.. maybe also a review method from the users about the games would be very beneficial.. give them spaces like the ones for TV networks and see that area prosper!

Plsk1n

I think blaming the retro titles for poor sales of new original titles on XBL is a bunch of crap. I have purchased a ton of XBL arcade games for my 360. If someone builds a good new original titles, people will buy it. Look at Smash Poker, now there is a good new original title.

pupaboy3

@NutManIV: "ahahahaha! Wiiware limit is 16mb and the games all look like flash games."

ahahahahah! no its not and no they don't.

ajay42

Some good shit. I really like my XBLA games ... originals or remakes.
I hate to read about developerss leaving "my" platform, because it means less games to choose from, but I do understand the competition on XBLA may be too much for some.

uzivatel

Here come the PSN and VC fanboys to fan the flames. Touting releases on the PSN is better simply because its on a Sony platform is the usual MO here. If these same games appeared on XBLA, there would be absolute nowhere the same level of fanfare there is for these titles.

As for the pissy dev excuse, it holds absolutely no water. Blaming consumers for having a choice of where their dollars fall -- be it retro of newer IP. Seriously, running to a service that has 100% retro library doesn't make your case. Actually, makes you more of an ass than anything...

jynxce

Looks like the folks at Nintendo are still little sore about the Capcom 5 Gamecube-exclusivity falling through.

Del Deadeyes

I know this is a tall order, but if they don't like being outsold by retro games, they should make something that can compete with them. Geometry Wars Galaxies felt like something I'd play walking into an arcade in the 80s-90s, but it was awesome and felt new enough to not just dismiss it as "seen it." It has enough complexity to add good depth to it, but it's simple enough to jump in and play any time, even after putting it away for a long time. There are many other examples of good games in this category now, including many casual games that are getting great sales like Peggle and Audiosurf. Upcoming titles like Fez, and experiments like Cloud, flOw, Synaesthere, or Aquaria also seem to fit in the same category as games you'd find on a console download service and I'd take them before a nostalgic replay of something I've already gone through.

On the other hand, if you want to take the download service less than seriously, hold back and deliberately program a game to be an amusing little diversion or a simple homage to an old arcade game as opposed to a "real game," don't be surprised when people pick up some of the best games they grew up playing first.

fuchikoma

Wait a minute. They are complaining about being outsold by competition from a few retro titles such as sonic 2 and frogger on XBLA? These guys must not be aware of something called "virtual console". They don't even know what competition is yet!

Regardless, none of this public bashing of XBLA is good for MS's casual gamer cause, but then again, it is deserved.

fenderfuel08

@interstate78: It's not like MS makes the demo for the developers for free or anything. MS forces everyone to make a demo. The others don't.

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

Xbox live's royalty reductions come from the fact that developers won't have to do and pay marketing and finalization and stuffs like this. It'll benefit those arcade games that sell less.

reptile168

I can't believe what I'm reading here. XBLA really pioneered this form of window for independant developers, giving the possibility for devs and gamers alike to bring retro, old-school and indie games to Next-Gen consoles at an affordable development cost.

It's a near-flawless service that really gives the public a chance to get great games for less and see games that they otherwise never would have laid their eyes on.

Me for example. Do you think there's ANY chance I would have played Zuma, Marble Blast, Hexic and countless others if it weren't for XBLA? I didn't even know that a lot of those games were formerly distributed on PC. I just didn't care for those games on PC.

Now give me a controller, achievements and a revamped professional look and I just might buy it-- like I did for those titles and a bunch of others.

I think a lot of those developers who complain have no idea what they're talking about. Did it ever prevent anybody for making a best-seller on NES, PSX, GBA or DS even though those systems were plagued with third rate, me-too shovelware titles? Those classics they talk about are the foundation of gaming as we know it today. They were bestsellers back then and they are widely known. It's a no-brainer that an XBLA version of a classic working flawlessly with online rankings, achievements and visual upgrades is going to sell. Make a good game-we can try your demo- if it's good people will buy it.

I really don't agree with Microsoft suddenly reducing royalties but I still think that of the lot, XBLA has the most going for it. EVERY SINGLE XBLA GAME has a free demo, every game has a dashboard compatible ranking system (it ranks you within your friend list, fyi), every game has achievements and a lot have online capabilities.

Now don't get me wrong but PSN and Wiiware offer none of that.

And for those who say Wiiware is the saviour, well putting out a game for Wiiware means competing with Nintendo's own untouched, unupdated NES, SNES and N64 ROMS which I believe isn't much better or gratifying. As far as PSN is concerned, it's pretty cool but it really needs to make the SDK like XBLA's so every developer can easily release a demo. When games are released, aside from buying it as a leap of faith or reading reviews, you have no idea how a game's gonna play before purchasing it. Unless Wiiware does the demo thing too, I can't imagine how either will ever be as lucrative as XBLA is for indie developers.

interstate78

I'd love a follow up on this after the likely scenario happens: VC games will outsell original WiiWare games by a large margin.

DARTH_TIGRIS

Wiiware does not look amazing, but yeah it is full of it!

Soyerz

I hope that we'll get to see a Wii HDD at some point in the near future. Storing games on an SD card will be a pain in the ass.

mitcjase

Wiiware does not have a limit for the size(officially) but realistically it would obviously be smaller then the 512 MB flash drive.

MikeA

Why are you all yelling! my ears my ears!!!

Seriously. The release of games on two different places kinda makes it two different things to look at. Yes the combination of both retro and independent games isn't a problem but on different services it will be looked at differently.

For example, a brain game appearing on XBLA may reckon downloading but at the same time might be a far fetched reasoning to presume that people who are actively wanting to play this style of games will be surfing XBLA for something. WiiWare is a mixed and matched thing, and something like that is more likely to get browsed by users that are not so much self labeled hardcore gamers.

And this of course brings the question what exactly are developers wanting to develop. Is it really that they want to make a big splash with some small minigame compilation? Probably. Is XBLA the place to do it? Probably not, its just not geared towards the audience that these developers want to make.

pyropetey

@RuneX: Play like ass?

kuraitenshikun

@Trawgdoor!: Yay I got called a troll!

If you don't want to play Frogger or Rush n' Attack, don't buy them. Simple, eh? But saying you're going to Wii, where 100% of downloadable games so far are emulated old games, because you can't compete with "teh retr0z" on XBLA is absolutely stupid. Add to Wiiware being...OMG more retro stuff like Dr. Mario, and you have sort of a completely illogical, inarguable stand.

Every thread on here for BC Rearmed and SSF2THD are filled with people who can't wait for them. Should Capcom not have made those?

Karlott

@frank0127: Hey kiddo, some of us WERE playing the ATARI 2600 back in the day and are still gaming now. I can safely assume I've been gaming longer than you've been alive. So if MS wants to keep pumping out vintage games, I'm all for it. Now get off my lawn!

PhantomVI

@Rectangle: Idk about the memory problem. I recently picked up SSBB and it uses the SD card ingame to load Screenshots and Level a person has created so i don't think anyone with a sd card will have a problem but that's just my Opinion.

Jopan

Bla bla bla, all I hear is whining coming from a platform that hosts nothing but retro titles as one of its services. Not just retro titles either, but exact rom ports that look and play like ass.

Personally I really love the quality of titles on xbla and more importantly love the retro titles with upgrades. I just wish they would offer rpgs and such instead of just arcade style games.

RuneX

Wow, developers who are more or less making rehashes of Geometry Wars are bitching about companies releasing retro games...

WFROSE_Ex_Alpha

XBLA is rehashes? News to me.

KirbyMorph

To say XBLA is shit is a bit extreme, but I think I see what he/she is getting at. With the Virtual Console, the old games are totally separate and essentially being sold on nostalgic value and word of mouth. It's not really direct competition to new downloadable games, but rather just a means to access backwards compatible content that is no longer at retail.

On the other hand, on XBLA, the classic games are graphically updated and have some features added to directly compete with new titles and are not separated at all.

While Nintendo's refusal to update VC games for online play and such has been a source of complaints, there may be more too it than just laziness. By keeping the VC as purely a means to purchase backwards compatible games, they potentially make Wii Ware a much more attractive platform for new games.

I'm not saying I dislike the updated classics on XBLA at all, but I think from a developer standpoint there's some logic in thinking they cut into sales of original XBLA titles and make it more difficult to compete.

slacker164

@Aimless:

I own 18 XBLA arcade games (two of them were free). And every single one of these games are top notch.

Band of Bugs
Bomberman Live (This game alone makes XBL > Anything else)
Carcassone
Geometry Wars
Golden Axe
Hardwood Backgammon (fuck you I like backgammon)
Marble Blast Ultra
Metal Slug 3
Omega 5
Pac-Man CE
Puzzle Fighter HD
Puzzle Quest
Street Fighter 2 HF
Streets of Rage 2
TMNT
Undertow
Worms

So people can go on talking about how shitty XBLA is. But quite frankly I've gotten more enjoyment out of it then I thought I ever would have.

RonCey

I have couple "rehashed" title and thats Castlevania SOTN and REZ.

Every xbox owner should have those game anyways. If its spending money on updated classic, thats for me to decide.

Fyren

Someone call the whaaaaaaaaambulance.

Seriously. My Wii sits in the rack quite unused becuase I get tired of flailing my arms around like a retard to play games on it.

Nintendo marketing: Please ignore our crappy graphics and online story full of RETRO PORTED REHASESHES! We have the WiiMOTE! Look: WIIMOTE! And Mario! We have another Mario! Want Mario? We got it! Didn't you hear us: MARIO! And Zelda.

The Wii is Wiik.

olafson

@RedFive: @rezlow:

What the hell is wrong with you people. We're talking about the Wiiware program, not the VC rezlow. And RedFive, do you honestly think that thats the only game to come out or what? Idiotic fanboys.

Jac21

@bobtheduck: Yea that was part of the reason, it really looked like a downloadable title :/...

TOCATL

XBLA is full of overpriced shit.

*Corrected.

Gagamus

Nintendo didn't say this, the developers said it.

munniec

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": Awesome... numbers finally!

Here's the deal. WiiWare is far more restrictive than XBLA as far as who Nintendo will let on. That said, I'm not sure what the sizes of the various developers are or even what qualifies as a "some small Indy developers". What I do know is that before the cut, they were making at least 70% and then after the cut (this is with Microsoft assuming many of the publishing related cost such as localization (an example Kotaku listed)), they made as little as 35%. Clearly there's more here than we will ever know unless either of us publishes a game. I for one, plan to but that's another story. The point is that cost structure is probably similar across the platform such that the pretentious dick that made the statement about XBLA didn't mention it... I'm sure he would have loved to too.

I'm kinda going to kindly move on to another story since it feels like I'm camping here. I love topics like this but I'd rather not get banned a forth time :(

Thanks again for the Info, I've missed the last few months of Wii-k in Review though I never mis Game Scoop or Podcast Beyond :)... TRL sucks (and i'm sure they wouldn't have it any other way).

okenny :)

Wii has VC with gimped emulated ports, much more than XBLA's upgraded ports w/ online play. Just because VC is located in a different channel on Wii doesn't mean WiiWare won't be competing with VC... I guess MS could create 2 channels Retro & New, and then this developer would need to eat his words twice over, or thrice over.

Gam3r

So what exactly is the Virtual Console, if not a large pile of retro games distracting consumers from your original material (or "shit" as some unamed guy or gal called it)?

rezlow

So...
I have downloaded four games on XBLA. Two of those were free because Microsoft screwed up their Live service. Two of those were cheap. None of them are particularly good - I wouldn't pay as much as they charge. They are supposed to be among the cream of the crop in XBLA.

So...
I've downloaded a load of VC games, and I can name 2 or 3 WiiWare games that I will definitely be getting when it's launched.

Nintendo DL > MS DL

Aimless

I meant XNA... oops ;)

kuraitenshikun

Are you kidding me? The Wii Virtual Console service is NOTHING BUT EMULATED RETRO TITLES. And that's a rehash of Dr. Mario for WiiWare right there! Argh.

RedFive

I think the thing people are forgetting here is, as over-priced as they are, nintendo's VC titles sell because nintendo makes quality games, quality games that really hold up. For most people at least, the fact that they are original and prefectly emulated is the reason to get these versions.

XBLA's classic downloads are a mixed bag. First off they are usually arcade titles, which is good, but they seldom optimize the view and put these crappy bezels around everything, making it seem like you just paid 15 bucks for a crippled version of mame. Also m$ doesn't seem to spend much time on the ports as the controls for tron and some of the other releases are just plain horrible. The xbox controller simply can't handle the demands of certain arcade titles.

As for their original content, it's all pretty much crappy ports of pc games your mom would download and play. The only exceptions are the titles included in the arcade bundle (pacman ce, uno... ect) and they seem to have some genuine polish on them and of course the upcoming hd-remix will be great as well.

I think nintendo could really do well with wiiware because they are so demanding of their partners. You've gotta think the crap ratio is gonna be way lower on nintendo's side.

HowardC

@okenny :): You're right, I don't have a clue. But I do know that it's a big enough nuisance to developers over programming for other consoles that they'd rather not have to at all. My gripe is that they're so intent on force-feeding XML down developers throats, which they are. It's unnecessary, especially when they want you to drop more useful languages for their own.

For example: Microsoft courts a staggering number of universities into a marriage with XML. No, this isn't a polygamous marriage -- that means you're not learning other languages. You're essentially bound to their platform.

kuraitenshikun

Alot of XBLA games do suck. And I'm not just talking about remakes of classic games, which in the end are better than the Wiis versions.

In the end you'd be better off buying a VC game unless the XBLA title has online play or something you want.

Alot of Wii and DS games would be better off being downloaded ones, so this could be good.

However to say that Wiiware will be alot better (In games, not in how much they make) than PSN and XBLA games is stupid, The Wii will always lack the great online play the PS3 and Xbox has.

Gigith

@fecalchaos: Pikmin, Brain Training, Nintendogs, Animal Crossing (not that new, but it got its life on the Gamecube), and there are many potential IPs that are just being realized (Elite Beat Agents, Kid Icarus, etc.)

I should also point out that rehash does not equal an improved sequel, unless you think Mario 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy are all the same game with different skins in which case I can only laugh at you.

Ninja-Z

Lol, politics...

In summary: "XBLA SUCKS CAUSE I SUCK AT MAKING GAMES" is the only thing you REALLY hear.

So who should microsoft side with? the underdogs?

Ultrasinc

So he doesn't want XBLA to have better versions of the VC games at the same price?

I don't get it.
Sonic 2 was the same price as the Wiis version, but it had online play and leader boards. How is that a bad thing?

I wounder what the limit for Wiiware games will be, likely 50MB.

Gigith

@okenny :): IGN Wii-k in Review podcast #36 said 65% for developer, 35% for Nintendo if they act as publisher. If you go through a third party publisher they're going to take a cut, of course.

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

He should be saying:
"IN B4 TETRIS, BEJEWLED AND MARBLE BLAST!"

Superstar90 lieks mudkipz

@okenny :): You have the patience of a god.

Just thought I'd say that.

Moonshadow101

@kuraitenshikun: Actually, I was informed on this months and three bans ago (almost a year) but it makes sense if you understand .NET. You can actually write your XNA code in just about any language that can compile to .NET CLR framework. In case your wondering, that's a lot. This includes C++, VBasic, and some surprises like Delpi are in their too... look it up :)

MS gives you free compilers you're not tied to and free tools that you can use if you wish. Do you think Linux Nvidia and ATI drivers were written from scratch? No, these companies provided the base platform code to their hardware. The same is true with console hardware for all console companies. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft (which is XNA... the full version) all have SDKs you have to play a pretty penny to get into. The XNA used for XBLA games are not necessarily the C# managed code version.

I'm afraid you probably don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about so I'll stop :(

okenny :)

@frank0127: "44 is MORE than 1/3 of 121, btw."

Yeah, by about 3%. Which is why I said it was 'barely 1/3', not 'nearly 1/3'. No offense, man, but you gotta be careful when you try and call people out on stuff this simple.

Bishmon

Basically one anonymous dev released a crap game on XBLA and has gone of crying to Nintendo...

...let's see if their Space Giraffe sells against Wiiware Pokemon and Wiiware Final Fantasy or can convince consumers to buy a Wiiware game instead of something from the Virtual Console lineup...

Wait, did I say Space Giraffe? Ooops, I mean..eh...the dev was anonymous.

Oops.

MetalGearMax

@astrixzero: Neither Nintendo or Sony have proprietary languages that only work on their platforms. Neither try to beat developers and future developers with a stick labeled "USE OUR LANGUAGES, RAWRRR" at every chance possible, either. ;)

kuraitenshikun

@Scrapple: fun thing... i just played a brawl with a friend of mine, and two people NOT on my friend list also playe,d and we were able to instantly add each other, with no exchange of codes at all. it really surprised me. nintendo's finally wising up... somewhat.

not that i mind friend codes, that is. ;)

frank0127

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": You sound like you know what you're talking about so you may actually know the answer to this question:

When it was reveled that some developers may be getting as little as 35% percent in royalties if they chose to go with MS for game publishing services, I was shocked like most gamers (as I'm sure you were too) and outraged. Since then, I was wondering what other publishers' royalty rates were. I'm guessing from your comment, you know what Nintendo's WiiWare rate is. Don't hog the info... share!

okenny :)

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": i was just thinking the same thing. XD

how bout Animal Crossing, fecalchaos?

frank0127

at least with wiiware, the developer will only have to sell half than what would be required on XBLA to make the same money.

if you're happy with frogger etc, then eat it up on the 360, because thats all your'e gonna get once all the craetive people go over to PSN or wiiware

gique

@Bishmon: 44 is MORE than 1/3 of 121, btw.

the difference between the XBLA "retro" and the VC "retro" is that the XBLA "retro" are games that came out on the Atari. the VC "retro" games are those that came out on nintendo(and genesis, turbografix, and neo geo) systems, and they are the ones people actually played in this generation.

it's a matter of Atari 2600 games vs. NES-SNES-N64-NG-Genesis-etc. games.

frank0127

I own all 3 systems, and all I have to say is PixelJunk Monsters..
the comment is ludacris, there will always be some kind of demand for classics and retro..

by the way this isnt Nintendo stating these comments just some asshat developer.
I really find it hard with a 16 mb limit on WiiWare, where the game will be interesting, have a story, development basics, as well as graphics good enough not to make us look to the competitors.

thurstonkillgore

@fecalchaos: You were in diapers when Pikmin came out?

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

Devs jumping ship to gamings biggest rehashers? Irony! But, be that as it may, I buy a lot of those rehashes :o

crunks

I don't think anybody in Nintendo's camp should be crying "rehash" and using naughty words--especially when Nintendo hasn't had a new first-party IP since I was in diapers.

fecalchaos

Castle Crashers alone will render his entire "Full of Shit" opinion useless. It just needs to be released...soonish!

MP-Geist

@kuraitenshikun: And Nintendo's Wiiware is any different?

astrixzero

@Wubbytoes: Because he'll only get 35% royalties?

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

@Itchy: Giant Ballz of Steelix!: How is XNA good for developers? It's made specifically for Microsoft platforms. Learning XNA is like saying, "Microsoft, please come make me your bitch."

kuraitenshikun

There are some good original and classic games on XBLA. If this crazy developer thinks XBLA is full of shitty games then why doesn't he make some better games for it?

Wubbytoes

@TitillatedOcelot: We must be twins.

RickyTV

@Scrapple: OK I will :D

dmitsuki

Lol, this guy sounds like a whiney bitch that couldnt make a good game that would sell on XBL. How many retro games does he think there are on the Ninty Network compared to XBL?

Does he think that the majority of Wii owners that only got it for Wii sports and the Ninty franchises will shell out money to buy his indy game, more then an xbox owner??

smallwang

Also worth noting, according to Wikipedia, of the 34 games released on the PSN, 10 of them are retro games. That's just under 1/3.

So the idea that the PSN has a much smaller ratio of retro games than the XBLA isn't actually supported by facts.

Bishmon

Hah, this guy is a complete doosh..

Live arcade games are nice because "WE HAVE FRIENDS WITH REAL GAMERTAGS AND REAL ONLINE FUNCTIONALITY", where we can just invite them to games and play..

whereas the wii has "NO FRIENDS LISTS WITH FRIEND CODES LIKE 09023432343423423343 AND NO WAY TO INSTANTLY INVITE THEM TO A GAME"

have fun with that multiplayer wiiware.

Scrapple

I've gotta wonder what MS is doing with the percentages they're offering to developers... sometimes I'm straight shocked when good games end up on 'Arcade knowing what cut MS is taking from them.

Granted, they are certainly providing a platform where more users will pay than PC provides, but the ratio is off. MS shouldn't be trying to make money off the developers, period.

Kind of reminds me of how they take 2% of your invoice if you want them to pay in 10 days

kidko

@Eyerox: "Not to put words in the developers mouth, but on XBLA everything is lumped into one area and all competing against each other using the same "shelf space""

Uhh, no it isn't. There are separate categories for each genre. One of the genres is "coin-op classics."

Rectangle

@bobtheduck: Oh, and EVERYONE on the panel agreed that XBLA was not the way to go for new devs because it's saturated now, and much of it is being taken by, as people have said, the retro games and the big companies trying their hands at the small games, much like the current trend in "independent" movies.

bobtheduck

Of course, Wii-fanboys talking about all the "crap" on XBLA seem kind of hypocritical when looking at 95% of the non-Nintendo Wii titles. Those who live behind rice paper walls shouldn't cast stones.

TrettOff

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": I think Tocatl just got it mixed up with a downloadable because it doesn't look worth 50 bucks.

Oh, and at GDC, at the "how to go independent" seminar, one of the speakers said PSN is the bet bet as it's mostly empty now, and Wiiware is a huge question because the wii has the fewest people online of the 3 consoles. Of course, the Wii has the cheapest devkit of the 3, so just for that reason it may be worth going wiiware, at least for your first game.

bobtheduck

If the dev is tired of being outsold by Frogger, he's really going to hate being outsold by such classic VC titles like "Baseball".

TrettOff

@Eyerox: You should first wipe the side of your cheek, there's some Kaz semen running down it from your mouth.
...
I don't know if I agree with your assessment that 1/3 of the games are simple rehashes but that said, that Leaves 2/3 of things that aren't remakes or rehashes. Maybe ported but that doesn't make them any more or any less Indy.

Being Indy is being a small developer who creates game on a minimal budget and with (usually) original ideas. Not all of them are good, but some of them are great. XBLA gives you the ultimate portal to try everything for free before you buy it. No XBLA is demoless so they really encourage exploration. They even advertise the developers and build up buzz for their games prior to release. I'm not sure how you can knock such a nurturing environment for the Indy scene (second only to PC) and make statements as if you are concerned about developers.

I do see your point about self space but if you wanted something that filters by various criteria then XBLA has that. You want something filters based on Idny-hardcore-ness then you probably won't get that.

The bright side is that the XNA community has been building a war chest and when it launches this winter, you will have all the Indy games you ever wanted directly from the developer to you. I'm sure a person like you will call them shit too but then again, I doubt you ever cared about the developers. You at least care about the games right?

...

sorry to take up so much of your time. You can swallow now.

okenny :)

itt: Xbox fanboys unleash their fury!

CockroachMan

@TOCATL:
Umm... It's "De Blob" by the way and it's coming out as a full-fledged title via disc - not WiiWare.

Lstormy10

@Eyerox: "Not to put words in the developers mouth, but on XBLA everything is lumped into one area and all competing against each other using the same 'shelf space' while on the wii there will be two distinct area's with different goals and presentation."

How is that going to help solve this developer's problem of new games not being outsold by retro games?

This developer is upset that retro games are outselling new games on the XBLA. Those games share the same space, so even people looking for retro games have to at least expose themselves to the new games.

With seperate stores for the two games, I don't understand how the developer expects his problem to magically disappear. Now those people that are buying up these retro games will just stick to the Virtual Console, limiting their exposure to the new games WiiWare offers. If what people are buying is available solely in the Virtual Console, why does this developer expect them to go looking through WiiWare? It makes no sense.

Bishmon

@Eyerox: where you go wrong is assuming everyone thinks what makes a "poor" game is what *you* think makes a "poor" game.

XBLA has its share of poor games, no question, but I've seen the PSN store, and let me tell you... I'd take XBLA any day of the week. However, I'm aware that that is my own opinion, and I don't begrudge others theirs.

This is why it's so great that we have such a choice out there.

MrBionic

@Bishmon: Not to mention that most of those retro titles have updated graphics options, game mode options, and even online option never found in the original games.

okenny :)

XBLA has the best service by miles. There are original games released on a weekly basis that make paying $60 for a game laughable.

WaterMedia

Either I'm the only one "getting" it or I'm really dense.

XBLA is 1/3 remakes, which is shitty IMHO. When I first got my console, I used to look around xbla for interesting things to download. I don't do that anymore because most of it is so bad.

PSN has a MUCH better quality to quantity ratio and I think that is done on purpose (I could be wrong). I genuinely think that someone at SONY said they would rather have good games on PSN than lots of poor games.

I don't own a wii but my understanding is that wii ware and wii virtual console are two different things. It seems as if a lot of posters are confusing the two. Not to put words in the developers mouth, but on XBLA everything is lumped into one area and all competing against each other using the same "shelf space" while on the wii there will be two distinct area's with different goals and presentation.

I could be wrong and entirely out of my mind though. :)

Eyerox

wah wah wah.. cry me a river.

Retro games are hot right now, suck it up.

MrBionic

@greygecko: I don't know your guess is as good as mine they need to first fix there memory problem i only have 189 blocks of space left and after hearing the SSBB problems with MEM i don't want to save or download anything.

MURDERFACE

How is it XBLA's fault if people want more retro games? It's unfortunate for the indie developers, but giving people what they want is no crime.

QualityJeverage

Actually for the Wii, I hope all the WiiWare is shovelware so that maybe, just maybe, they will stop making entire disc games that amount to being the bonus levels of other games.

MJDeviant

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": it says for a JAPAN release. so that is still a long ways away considering we don't even have the Wiiware program.

MURDERFACE

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": I think the correct term for what just transcribed is "pwnedzorz" if im not mistaken.

dmitsuki

The opinions being expressed in may of these comments really surprise me.

The one that really got me thinking was the one commenter who said MS came to the Indy scene late (as opposed to WiiWare); why would someone even make a statement like that?

Quality over quantity others say. I guess a percent majority makes more sense then absolute values. assuming that logic flirs, how did WiiWare win based on having 0% anything... oh wait, it has 100% nothing. I see what they did there.

...

The fact is that XBLA is pushing the indy community onto consoles and other platforms are following suit. They had a year to observe after all. Developers running to WiiWare because their games are being outsold by classics are people who are afraid of failure or rather pretentious people who will quickly blast something that they see as a threat to their interests publicly. The statement this developer made was absolutely baseless and I'm completely surprised that some comments would even lend it a voice.

okenny :)

@MURDERFACE:

who knows
remember when xbox internet service was relased?

maybe the N has some big plans ready

or not

greygecko

"clogged up with the retro titles that have blighted the chances of many independent studios."

That quote bothers me. Make games that people want to play and you'll do fine. The last thing anyone needs is a place for so-called "indy" developers to unload their shovelware on.

Wolfers

@MURDERFACE: Here it is.

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

I think what he should of said instead of LIVE is shit is that the market for Indy games is shit. He won't say that because then he'd be blaming the customers. Personally when I think of indy games I usually think of mediocrity.

MJDeviant

Holy crap that's a ballsy but stupid move for nintendo.

"shoot first ask questions later" i see they are using the Dick Cheney method............yikes!!!!!!

I am sorry i'm just pissed off that SSBB online is lagtastic my timing for online fights are all fucked up.

But i do enjoy XBLA as much if not more than the VC. but at least xbla games have online and i doubt iam going to see a online bomberman on the VC anytime soon. =(

MURDERFACE

well the freedom on wiiware seems like a smart move from ninendo

hope it goes well for those anon devs

greygecko

According to Wikipedia, of the 121 XBLA games, there's 44 retro games. That's barely 1/3.

Again, according to Wikipedia, of the 208 games on the Wii's Virtual Console, 208 of them are retro games.

If developers are upset at being outsold on the XBLA by retro games, how will it be any different on the Wii when the Wii offers a lot more of those retro games? Because they'll have seperate sections for new games and retro games? If a developer couldn't get someone to buy their game on the XBLA instead of a retro game when presented with both options, what are they expecting on the Wii when consumers don't even have to look through those new games to get to the retro games they apparently covet?

I'm not saying the WiiWare service doesn't have any advantages over XBLA. But the availability of retro games on the consoles certainly isn't one of them.

Bishmon

@Eddy666: Thank you for that fantastically ambiguous statement. Now can you please qualify that with, you know, examples and the like?

Doomstalk

So if XBLA is full of shit, what the fuck is WiiWare? Try standing on your own two feet before you try knocking someone off theres. Idiot devs.

LittleBigPlaneteer

@Karlott: STFU troll. It's true that there's a lot of rehashed shit on the Xbox. Unupdated ports of Frogger and Rush'n Attack piss some of us off, m'kay? Not every point in the article is necessarily true, but there are still valid points to be made. And what's wrong with competition anyway?

Trawgdoor!

Talking shit to the gold-standard of console-based online services is pretty ridiculous coming from the console with the worst online services.

Strangelove

Compared to PSN xboxlive is full of shit.

lanion

That's not to say I'm entirely opposed to retreads. I don't see anyone whining over Street Fighter Turbo HD Remix or Pac-Man Championship Edition.

Trawgdoor!

Hmmm, Wii, VC, and XBLA is "full of shit."

lol

How's Bionic Commando Rearmed and SSF2HD looking on the Wii there? Pretty sure 360 and PS3 will both be getting them. Oh wait, more "rehashed shit" unlike Dr. Mario.

Karlott

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": Ah. Good point.

slomo788

I like XBLA. The only games I have bought are original games like Marble Blast Ultra, Alien Hominid, Undertow, and Eets: Chowdown. Ultimately, it's down to the consumer to decide what games are featured on XBLA. If you don't like rehashes, stop buying them! Microsoft isn't in this to spite the gamers, and if remakes aren't making money, then they'll reevaluate their situation.

Trawgdoor!

That Mii looks exactly like mine!

TitillatedOcelot

In the early days of the PSN Midway were trying to shove a load of unoptimised Arcade trash out, but it didn't last long, thankfully. As much as I dread Disappointment Thursdays, I'd rather have nothing than have a Store clogged with abysmal retro-parp.

JudgeNutmeg

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh, the irony. It's too much to bear. Jesus Christ, people. These guys are doing the same thing Jeff Minter does. And do they think that their titles will sell better on Wiiware? Who do they think they are? Nintendo is going to have tons of classic games all over when the service is announced, and the tiny number of measily games won't be paid as much attention as Live Arcade titles are being paid now.

Ashurahori

@Redface, The Dark Messiah of Justice: @slomo788: None of this is being said by Nintendo. The article comes from a European (platform-agnostic) developers' site.

Torgen thinks AAA means “Costs $60”

@Sherlock_the_Barbarian:

Exactly. If your game sucks, getting rid of other crappy games isn't going to all of a sudden make your game better.

If your game is good, it will sell on XBL.

RonCey

This, my friends, is the beginning of the end for Nintendo. This kind of smack-talk is the sign.

slomo788

@Eddy666: Hardly, there are plenty of origional games on XBLA. Most of the rehashes have tapered off or evolved into full-blown remakes.

@TOCATL: The Blob is a full-blown disc based game.

Agies

*sniff* MMMMM! I love your bullshit talk, Nintendo! Gimme More! Gimme more bogus trash Nintendo!

Redface, The Dark Messiah of Justice

@Torgen thinks AAA means "Costs $60": But are sold on the same system and are competing for the same Wii Points... I don't see the fact that they're in a different category in the Wii Shop Channel as very different from Xbox LIve.

kennyd1

Amusing that this article has a quote from XBLA bring full of shit for having retro rehashes that are selling well, yet the picture included for the WiiWare service is a rehash of Dr. Mario, which has been released several times already.

Royalties may be one thing but there's actually a banner service on XBLA arcade to advertise new arcade titles, and the marketplace spotlights new titles easily and it's much easier to access Live.

Besides, do these developers really think they're going to push the WiiWare service above VC?

whiptcracker

@Eddy666: I agree but damnit I'd love some Street Fighter on my PS3.

Even if it's just the old "SD" one. Meh, hopefully we'll see SF2HDblahblah sooner rather than later - as I'm under the impression SF4 is a loooong wait (due to the arcades...).

Candlejack

So basically XBLA's problem is that it doesn't segregate classics and rehashes from originals, the way it currently does with XNA.

Yeah, that makes sense... doesn't mean XBLA is worse than the Wii's offering though. This guy is just trying to be quotable, not intelligent.

DaveKap

I don't get it, WTF is wrong with having classic titles on Live?

Currently, that is ALL Nintendo has for downloadable games. And Nintendo doesn't add online multiplayer or high definition graphics to the games like MS does.

I think the WiiWare (is it just me or does that sound like Barbra Walters saying "Beware!") devs are going to have a bigger issue on their hands when they realize that a few classic Nintendo games and a few Wii Ware games are all that is needed to fill the Wii's flash memory. And then people stop buying games.

Rectangle

I promise you Nintendo will raise their royalties as soon as they have a full roster of developers for WiiWare, just like Microsoft. It's a normal business practice to offer attractive rates when you're trying to gain business and ro raise rates when you're simply maintaining.

If a developer is being outsold by a retro rehash, the problem is partially with their game and partially the fact that nostalgia counts for something.

jayntampa

Jeff Minter, is that you?

This whole article smells of sour grapes.

waltjay

The Wii, land of all that is gimmicky, minus first-party titles, and its new developers is suggesting XBLA is full of shit? Like said in other comments, the people want new, Xbox Live Doom (which is rather awesome I add), and they get it, the XNA stuff is there and in fact I am helping create an R-Typeesque game for it right now.

PSN has some great titles, sadly few indie titles, but that should change. XBLA its coming, and Wii... its just not a great console. And as I have it I know.

Communist_Gamer

Hey.. if your indy game is good enough.. word will get around and people will buy it. If they want to spend $10 on 'shit' like Frogger.. its their money to do so so shut the fuck up.

Abdar

Honestly, as a Playstation 3 fan, I'd rather have an online network full of alot of stuff, including shit, than not full of enough stuff in general (PSN).

Right now, PSN < XBox Live. Hopefully that will change soon...

njhardcoreguy

ahahahaha! Wiiware limit is 16mb and the games all look like