@fuchikoma: Such a small issue when it comes to racism, at least these are cars. What about GTA I which purposely overpopulated Chinatown and gave you a mission where it would be impossible to avoid mowing down a dozen Asians for the fun of it. I sometimes feel westerners just like to accuse Japan of being racist to make themselves feel better about their own (imo worse) problem with racism.

Soldrak

@Rectangle:
It's funny how if the XBox sells badly in Japan everyone jumps up and down and yells "Japan's just racist against American products!" But you see something like Ford, a company with a history of racism*, allowing damage in an American game but not a Japanese one and it's the Japanese dev's fault for denying us features - features they've already said are coming anyway.

*
[news.bbc.co.uk]
[news.bbc.co.uk]

That said, I mean this mostly for consideration and discussion, not as a (rather heavy) accusation levelled at Ford neccesarily. It also doesn't explain Honda - can they be damaged in Forza too? Are the rules for licensing even the same?

fuchikoma

@gogators88:

Thank you. There are times when I dinged the wall, and did a slight amount of damage to my car, and I'll lose a bit of speed due to the imbalance of the aerodynamics, or depending on the class, engine/camber etc, damage.

jello44

@iNime: So how is bumper cars a "simulation" of real driving?

ostartero

Luke, you suck. These posts get worse and worse, more biased and uninformed. Remove your opinion and just report the news dude.

Like many people have already stated here and as a well known fact... GT is a simulation series, not a arcade series like PGR okay, so damage on the car MUST affect performance. That is different then just smash it up, but it still drives the same as non smashed... think before you deliver your crappy biased opinions in news because some of the readers here wouldn't know any better.

I always thought the source was supposed to have more info than the reader... Kotaku proves us wrong... again!

iNime

you're gay luke.

PGHdave

@DONNYchiban: You fail at analogy my friend.

thegunshow

If you guys really want realism, you aren't going to get it in a console game, despite all this talk of damage modeling and so forth it's unlikely that it will go to the point of actually stopping your car no matter how severe the crash. GTR 2 for the PC puts the damage modeling of Forza and Gran Turismo to shame

mikemil828

After finally watching some actual in game driving videos (i.e. not replays, cgi or single player time trials...) I'm really worried that they'll do damage, but it will only be cosmetic.

They need collisons to be real collisions not bumper cars. Go 16 seconds into this video [www.eurogamer.net] and you'll see what I mean. The crash occurs with at least a 1/2 car length of invisible bumper between each car and neither car is effected by the collision. I've seen crashes at greater speed too and it's the same thing.

This will be disaster online, if collisons help your car not hurt it. Who needs brakes when you have other cars around. Who cares about cosmetic damage if it's still bumper cars. Graphics are secondary. Bumper cars won't work online.

JackB99

Who cares about car damage. Hell, if it's done right you won't be driving anymore the whole race. Keep that shit in EA's titles... GT is more of a work of art than a bumper cars.

Ixero

Well, I know when I get my game company, I'll demand that in all of my fighting titles, there will be no damage. Period.

DONNYchiban

I don't really get this whole argument about "total realism or no damage at all". I mean you can put in damage simulation that effects parts like transmission, engine, drivetrain etc without even doing anything cosmetic. That's what should matter to most people driving anyhow.

Investing in accurate cosmetic damage isn't worth the time, and it will be seriously harder for car modelers to get the models pretty as well.

zlimness

@phrenetik: "I've put together three licensed drivers the last few years, and some car companies simply will not allow their cars to be damaged. Period. Some of the biggest sticklers have been Ford and Honda, which aren't exactly the most exotic manufacturers, but for cars like the Ford GT and the NSX it's nearly impossible to get a license allowing you to damage those cars."

Forza 2 has a Ford GT in it, and it will damage up just fine. Maybe you just aren't the best negotiator. :)

The Forza devs did mention that they cannot show any structural frame damage. Only damage to the panels are allowed. And cars can't flip. But the damage to the drivetrain is modeled very well, and that is what really matters. Visual damage is icing. Drivetrain damage is the cake, and what really matters in a racing game.

Rectangle

@dadeisvenm: "If GT5 has any type of damage its worth the wait to see that it has a true damage model. If it doesn't then its no different from the bumper car racing of PGR, Forza, and other games of that ilk."

Forza 2 does render the car inoperable if you crash it with damage set to simulation. And if you even glance off of someone, you can end up with the car pulling to one side or not accelerating at the right speed. I wouldn't call Forza 2 a bumper car game at all. I've ended up with my car only able to drive at 1mph in reverse (all other gears were gone). If you drive like an idiot with damage on in Forza 2, you will be punished! And you might not even be able to make it back around to the pit to get it fixed.

Forza 2 does damage very well, while still keeping the game fun.

GT definitely is a bumper car game, though. If there is no punishment for contact with other cars, you are more likely to do it.

Rectangle

It's pretty obvious WHY manufacturers don't want their cars damaged in video games. We're still at the stage of video game development where you can't accurately portray real-world damage (do you know what kind of super-computer horsepower you need to simulate truly realistic crash damage?) and manufacturers don't want their cars seen in any unfavorable light. If the virtual car gets damages in a way a real-world car wouldn't then I can see why car manufacturers would say "no thanks".

I'm frankly surprised PGR got the rights to do it.

mariospants

@Tuxy79: "If there's any flaw with this series, it's lack of damage. GT4's 10 second "time-out" was so God damned annoying and pointless. There's no reason to not take care of your car or drive carefully. Would love to see how they handle damage in GT5. If it's anywhere near the level of quality exhibited so far, I will look forward to owning a PS3 next year."

This guy is the perfect example of those who complain about GT lacking damage, they don't own a PS3 and never really cared about GT in particular. They just want to put their 2cents in but never really intend to buy the game with or without car damage.

But Forza, PGR etc. etc., but do these games have over 700 cars? manufacturers you never heard of? Do their cars look as good or drive as nice as GT? Yeah I don't think so. Even if one manufacturer said no to damage it means no damage for the game at all. Simple as that. Anyway this game will sell to millions and I'll be one of them. See you GT fans online.

thegunshow

I've put together three licensed drivers the last few years, and some car companies simply will not allow their cars to be damaged. Period. Some of the biggest sticklers have been Ford and Honda, which aren't exactly the most exotic manufacturers, but for cars like the Ford GT and the NSX it's nearly impossible to get a license allowing you to damage those cars.

Other manufacturers will give you permission if you pony up extra cash, however, and that might be the hurdle Polyphony is running into (either they're cheap, Sony isn't willing to help with the extra cost, or, perhaps more likely, the car manufacturers are holding out for even larger sums knowing how popular Gran Turismo is).

Point is, he isn't lying, getting car manufacturers to allow you to even scratch or damage their cars, let alone wreck them completely, is nearly impossible.

phrenetik

Do you know how long it would take to model damage using accurate collision physics. It'd be different for each car based on each car's unique chassis/frame. then the damage on multiple car wrecks would have to take into account the different densities of the materials involved and blah blah.
with what like 700 cars (altho not all are unique) thats a massive permutation for possibilities for crash physics. For an accurate simulation anyways, and coming from gran turismo that's what people would expect. So if they start working on it now, it will be ready for GT8 on the ps4?

Derigor

PGR doesn't have all the cars GT has, no one said this is about Ferrari. They've presumably got a lot of the cars for GT5 already planned and in development, if any of those manufacturers don't want damage in the game, then they either can't add it at all (because they'd have to remove it for GT5), or would have to have it for all the cars except the ones the manufacturers don't want.

Yamauchi has also said he wants realistic damage, which would mean your car disintegrating when you hit a wall at 200mph, not losing your front bumper or getting a few dents, plus taking performance hits from having reduced aerodynamics. That obviously needs entirely new code that's not in the game and a lot of extra work for every single car.

lordofsword

@JudgeNutmeg: Agreed 110%

badmoogle

@TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles: It's just bull. I've been wrecking Porsches and Ferraris for years in videogames.

I'm getting sick of waiting for GT5. and for that matter, are they going to deal with the awful AI for GT5?

Chapel

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Gran Turismo needs crash damage like LocoRoco needs assault rifles.

If you're naming games you prefer because they have damage, stick to playing those instead and leave GT to the people who actually get what it's about.

JudgeNutmeg

@ryivanV2: That's awful. That completely kills the idea of a simulation - it would be better to allow pinball racing.

Basically, they're patching their shortcomings by unnaturally limiting your choices. It's unacceptable.

Grive

For all of you talking about car damage (including you Plunkett), you are talking about SURFACE damage which has not practical purpose other then "looking pretty". TOCA and other driving simulators (primarily pc based) had real car damage in the sense that colliding into a wall at 30 mph could render the vehicle immobile. If GT5 has any type of damage its worth the wait to see that it has a true damage model. If it doesn't then its no different from the bumper car racing of PGR, Forza, and other games of that ilk.

@seafisch: the whole "they don't want people to see their pretty cars all ****ed up" argument does fly when manufactures don't want you to know their car was slapped together by the lowest bidder and is built like a tissue box.

dadeisvenm

@munchausen: actually I remember reading an interview from Polyphony a couple of years ago and they asked if people would be either be interested in GT for the PSP or motorcycles in GT. The result was Tourist Trophy and I think I preferred that over having GT4 that I could take around with me.

I think they haven't put it in because they want to make it alittle more realistic while maintaining the great visuals. I'm sorry, Forza and PGR look great but they don't look this great and their damage models never seemed up to par for me.

jp182

I would guess that the pool of people who legitimately are in the target market for a high end automobile (Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and the pool of people who play racing sims do not have many people in common, so the whole "they don't want people to see their pretty cars all ****ed up" argument doesn't really fly for me. That, and the fact that other racers have damage, both cosmetic and simulation.

I buy the perfectionist argument a lot more. But FM2 is enough to satisfy my moderate desires when it comes to racers, so GT can do, or not do, whatever PD pleases, I won't be buying it either way.

seafisch

This is the point when they loose the title "Simulation" and gain the title "AnotherBloodyDrivingGame".

GFX-187

@ryivanV2: "There is a penalty for racing like an idiot online, if you cut corners, hit other players, slam your breaks on in front of other players, etc. They "limit" your engine power for about 4 seconds. You drive rather slowly. I have been playing online for about an hour now, its really quite good, seems to keep everyone in check."

So they are going for ultimate realism because they are perfectionists, and THAT is their solution to not having damage in the game? That's not realistic at all! It's lame!

Rectangle

Why is car damage such a big deal? I know it's a "real driving simulator," but guess what? If you drive into a wall at 150 mph, you would not ever ever EVER be driving again. How fun would that be if GT provided that level realism?

Knuckler

Forza, TOCA Pro Race Driver, Sega GT, all had damage that affected the way you drive, it makes no sense for GT not to have any damage in their game at all. I would prefer a combination of SEGA GT and TOCA damage, where you have the occasional system failure or tire blowout and where hiting will damage the care and its performance.

HurricaneDave

If there's any flaw with this series, it's lack of damage. GT4's 10 second "time-out" was so God damned annoying and pointless. There's no reason to not take care of your car or drive carefully. Would love to see how they handle damage in GT5. If it's anywhere near the level of quality exhibited so far, I will look forward to owning a PS3 next year.

Tuxy79

I'm wondering, if they do put damage in (which i'm doubtful of) is it going to be pgr type damage, ie scratched paint and cracked glass, maybe a fender hanging here and there...or is it going to be toca level damage, ie the hood has come off and your back left side is completely crumpled? My money is on the former.

I expect in games with proper licensed cars there are definitely restrictions on the level of damage that can be caused. a big no-no is passenger compartment deformation. Lack of damage doesn't bother me as much as some people but I do agree it would be nice to have some consequences for using your rivals as bumpers for turns.

LX

The real question is why so many are driving into walls and being mad about not having damage, instead of improving their driving so they dont hit walls? I thought the whole point of driving games was to drive, not crash.

If not, I'm looking forward to someone making "Wall-Crashing Simulator". I bet it'll fly off the shelves!

Buttah

Guess what I got in the post today? I love you, play.com. I love you too, Her Indoors, for opening the package and telephoning me with the good news.

How sad is this. I'm sitting at work typing this and waiting for the clock to reach 1230 as I've taken a half day so I can go home and play it. No stories for my daughter this evening.

[The only downer is that I've just read it requires a 6GB mandatory install. Bad. Very bad. I've only got 3GB left so I'll have to delete some much wanted content.]

DelSource

I still cant believe people want realistic damage in this game. Fact is, 9 out of 10 people who post here could never finish a race if they have damage. Cause once you make a small mistake, its over and your car will never perform well enough to win a race forcing you to hit the restart option more times then you can imagine.

As I said before, there is not a single "successful" game that had a proper damage system. People talk about how in GT you can crash into a wall at 150mph and still drive off. You can do that in forza 2 as well with such a minor handicap that it barely affects your ability to race.

The game would be less fun with damage because the GT creators are not gonna half-ass it like other simulation racers.

Also, damage modeling will make the online stupid as it did with Forza with people purposely bumping into each other. Whats realistic about that?

Face it, GT is the king of simulation racers and there will not be any other game that can top it. From the graphics, the physics, cars and tracks; every other competitor is still playing catchup.

They dont need to add damage. No one cares about it. The only people who even care are the small minority of rookies who can barely play the game otherwise and just want to be able to go around destroying cars for the fun of it.

They dont need damage to make the game more realistic. No one here has yet to explain why damage would be better. Fact is, all its going to do is make people play the game more unrealistic.

Viet0ne

@STHD: Then you should go back in time and play GT2.

Most Wanted

fib
noun
a small or trivial lie

Plunkett
Proper noun
a small or trivial fibber

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I would really love to know how many people actually wanted damage modeling in GT5:P. Of the five people I know who are buying it, 2 want it and 3 don't.

Running a web poll would only show the views of the more vocal amongst us. The people who don't want, or are not bothered about it, are generally less inclined to make their opinions heard.

If it was implemented, I think it should be switchable, as in Forza. Which brings me to one of the problems I have with DM: Maniac AI [and I'm looking at you here Forza], whose sole intention in the race appears to be the lightening of your car via bodywork removal [I gave up running the endurance races on sim damage because of this suicidal behavior whilst trying to lap backmarkers].

Anyway, there's my tupence worth...

BTW: Anyone know what time the game is going to be up on Euro PSN?

shab

I'll skip every GT till they ad destruction to them!

STHD

@Jomi294:
Yes, your avatar is dead and the car is finished and it isn't going to be moving anymore and this is a game not real life. The damage on simulation in Forza is handled well. Rather well done doesn't equal perfect.

gogators88

@gogators88: Hit a wall a 200 mph and you should be pretty much dead, and your car shattered across the highway. I wouldn't expect to be able to 'check how well it does' if the damage was 'rather well done'.

Jomi294

I don't get what's the big deal about damage. It's a ton of extra work modeling, texturing, creating the physics, etc. I'd prefer to see weather effects, more tracks, changing time of day before I care about damage. 700+ Cars being damaged is going to take a good while, Forza's damage was pretty lame and had some horrible collision problems with the damage. I'd prefer they left out the damage modeling and provided us with more tracks.

DuoWing

@BNinjaC: No, I called him a fibber.

Luke Plunkett

@Amazon_Chris: "With or without damge, I'll buy this."

Same.

@tecknical: "work on getting that goddamn lamborghini and porsche license while youre at it"

That's definitely very high on my wish list. The Ruf Porsches only partially fill my needs. I'd like to see some of the older Porsches in the game. Especially the old speedsters and Le Mans cars. The lack of Lamborghini just makes me sad.

@zoesch: If you're going to do damage modeling in a realistic sim (Forza and GT) you'll have to be realistic about the effect of damages in your car's performance.

The only problem with that is that even the slowest crash will put you out of a race and that won't be fun.

I think the real problem is Yamauchi's a perfectionist and thinks that damage is "all or nothing". Unfortunately, damage is not something that's really compatible with that point of view since it's extremely hard to do realistically. The only racing games I have seen where the damage is even close to realistic is F1 games where the cars are essentially all the same.

If he's going to do this, I hope he makes the "realism" adjustable as he's done with the handling. That way people of all skill levels can have damage without removing the fun factor. He could even extend that to race options so some races you're stuck with handling in "professional" mode with full damage and in-car view for the total purists.

Doshu

Calling one of the most respected guys in the business a liar?

/kotaku bookmark deleted

BNinjaC

@ryivanV2: Damn straight it does.

Excuse me...

*runs off to phone up an executive and score phat cash money*

Ampillion, now with the hair stylings of TVs Frank

@celery:

You aren't seriously comparing mario to GT5 are you? I can see the point your trying to get across, but its not a very good one. Hey, while we are at it. Lets have lives, oh! And Gold coins across the tracks, and mushrooms that on impact cause us to become monster trucks?

Sounds ridiculous. Doesn't it.

ryivanV2

No damage is the main reason why the GT series is pale and lackluster as "race sims" go. The damage alone would lend a lot to the dynamics of the game. Right now, it's just for people who like super shiny cars with big wings.

Even the most talented of racers crack up now and then. You can't have racing without it.

j13

The point of Super Mario Bros is to get to the end of the level without dying, so why bother putting death in? Man, what kind of lame excuses are these? It's obvious to anyone who doesn't have their head stuck up their ass that Polyphony has dropped the ball here in a huge way, but the fanboys are all to willing to pick it up and wag their tails.

celery

I thought it's because GT didn't pay for their car licenses, they got it for free? so the car manufacturers have a bit of control on how their cars are used in the game, most of them don't want their car wrecked?

rich8606

@LividChihuahua: Thank you, couldn't have put it better myself.

chilicoke

What you'll find, and what a lot of people ignore, is that money is a huge factor here.
Many of the manufacturers have said to Polyphony "yes, you can have our cars for free, but don't damage them" since they know that even having presence in a GT game is pure unadulterated PR in itself and will give them no profit loss. It's just damaging cars that manufacturers don't like, and that's where Microsoft's deep pockets come into play for PGR and Forza.

Youlikeyams

Car damage is a big deal, I mean to do it right in all aspects is a real pain, you have to to active real time deformation, including at material types, and what happens when you do slide your car into a wall at high speed, it only screwed that saide after, can I rip the now rubbing fender and keep in the race, the duct tape nascars back together after accidents (I'm shure it's not simple ductape) can I tape that bumper of my Mclarean back on? Can I rip it off and take the aerodynamic hit? There's way to much to it to do it right, and I'd rather not have it at all if I can't have it right.

Besides, the point of racing is to go really fast around a track and not crash into other cars or the sides of the track. If you playing the game right it'll never even come up.

LividChihuahua

@voidler: Agrees!

Yes I agree damage is needed. But not just that crappy COSMETIC DAMAGE that other games use *cough* PGR *cough*! I don't consider cosmetic damage as car deformation.

Also there are many, many car manufacturers out there (and not just the popular ones that most people know of) who each have their own policies about having their cars represented in a video game. So I think it's rather ignorant calling someone a liar when I doubt that anyone here has ever had to deal with as many car manufactures about how they want to have their product represented in a game as Kazanori Yamauchi.

Tenchuu

@niz:

"Does GT5P have *any* kind of AI yet? If you park your car sideways in the middle of the track, will the AI cars steer around you or smack straight into you one by one at full speed, like in GT3?"

Yes they all take their own lines, make mistakes and if you break in front of one, they'll swerve to miss you. If you slow in front of them, they'll brake, back up and then go around you

voidler

@gogators88:

There is a penalty for racing like an idiot online, if you cut corners, hit other players, slam your breaks on in front of other players, etc. They "limit" your engine power for about 4 seconds. You drive rather slowly. I have been playing online for about an hour now, its really quite good, seems to keep everyone in check.

ryivanV2

You know, theoretically he could be telling the truth. Gran Turismo shows up at many auto shows for display purposes and is probably the best selling car game on the market(maybe?). You might as well ask why most car commercials don't show the car crashing.

Black-Dog-Howls

WTF? Demolish a Ferrari in PGR? Bwahahaha, what world are you living in Luke? Scratching a bumper and knocking out a headlight is not my idea of demolishing a car and NOT the level of damage Yamauchi is trying to negotiate for GT with manufacturers

Calling one of the most respected people in the car and game industry a liar. You've got some nerve

PGR does not have 1/10 the level of cars and manufacturers as GT5, and if even one of them disagrees then that's another roadblock. As far as Ferrari is concerned, they are very strict with damage

voidler

Hes not really fibbing. Car manufactures are really touchy about this kinda thing. Hell Hasbro had a hard time getting real cars licensed for their Alternators Transformers line because a lot of the companies they were interested in saw the whole "splitting the car apart and rearanging the parts" thing and said no there.

Not that there isnt some companies that are okay with it. But you cant really make a game where /some/ of the cars can deform and not others. And GT has always been about a massive selection or cars.

Most games get around it by making look alikes with small alterations and different names, but again GT is about real licensed cars that actualy exist. So not at option. It really does come down to basicaly convincing everyone involved that it dosnt make their brand look bad when the top gets sheered of during a 200 mph collision flip and tumble. Thats not exactly an easy sale for most..

Murrytmds

They should just have car damage for all the companies that agree, and leave it out for the ones who don't so they look silly.

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

I dont mind the damage the purpose I played GT was just cause of the gameplay, graphics and all the sick cars they had.

Jehuty2

@reptile168: Wouldn't this be the specific dev of THIS game rather than ALL OF SONY...

@Astrofox: Don't speak logic... It's sony, they're evil, get over it. They rape dogs. They murder children. They send darklings, flying monkeys, succubi, inferi, AND heartless after innocents. Heartless, for crying out loud. They assassinated Martin Luther King Jr because they hate black people, and they're all republicans. Oh, and they buy out their competition and those that threaten their tenuous grasp on their PC gaming empire, force their proprietary shader system on game development schools so they don't learn how to use OpenGL, and go straight for the most important 2nd party companies for their competitors (Nintendo and Mac companies, being rare and Bungie respectively) effectively destroying them because they don't have the stockpiles of cash to defend themselves...

Ok, so I got a bit carried away.

bobtheduck

When I race online, I don't race to damage my car or see how bid the wreck can get. I do want a damage penalty. When my competitors are acting foolishly, they should get an appropriate level of performance penalty. Play Forza online with damage at simulation and you'll see people change their driving behavior really quickly.

gogators88

"If I can demolish an exquisitely-modelled Ferrari in Project Gotham Racing, I can do it in Gran Turismo."

Have you played PGR4? There's really no visual damage anymore, apart from some scratches and cracked windows. The visual damage model was much more extensive in PGR2 (and it was and still is by far the best console racer ever).

But it's true that Yamauchi cannot be trusted. He promised AI and online play for GT4. And we all know how it went.

Does GT5P have *any* kind of AI yet? If you park your car sideways in the middle of the track, will the AI cars steer around you or smack straight into you one by one at full speed, like in GT3?

niz

I'd love to see car damage as much as anyone else (or at least sparks when cars rub), but I've always seen it as Kaz being a perfectionist. He's the kind of guy that if he does anything, it HAS to be done right or he'll just scrap it altogether. (GT4 online, anyone?)

I don't think anyone can honestly say that the damage in Forza or any other racing game is all that realistic. No manufacturer wants potential customers to see their car leak fluids and start on fire with the driver inside.

Reiji

@reptile168: Yeah..because the other two console companies never talk out of their asses.

Most Wanted

Well, just proves once again that we can't believe whatever comes out of Sony's mouth (mainly refusing to add damage system to cars and blaming manufacturers instead)

reptile168

Could just be there's some hold out manufacturers. Would kinda suck to have some cars that smash to bits and some that remain in one piece even after slamming into a wall at 300 KPH...

Demaar

@eastx:
That is not what I said, so learn to read? =P
Did I say newer cars were impervious to damage or damage shouldn't be in GT5? NO =P =P
Point was people usually don't want to do what's bad for business, all I said was it's understandable if you think in manufactures' shoes.

Polyphony already said car damage is coming, so no point for people to keep on bitching anyway.

Dir_en_grey

@eastx: You claim I'm a fanboy? You need to rethink your definition. Being excited for a game does not make you a fanboy.

@Luke Plunkett: I agree with you Luke on your collision modeling gripes, hopefully that is included when they say deformation. But calling Kaz a liar over him having problems on the business side of the damage modeling is a bit much with no proof to the contrary.

Remember these are the first time Ferrari have even let them have their cars for the game, they let other games have them before now, business is never fair or easy to predict.

I sense a frustration from you that this game could have been a 10/10 but is falling short in the damage/collision area, hence the Kaz name calling.

Astrofox

In my opinion, car damage is the only thing that is keeping Gran Turismo from being THE car simulator. If they can offer realistic car damage, just like everyone else or better, that would get a huge number of critics off their back and make the game even more worthy of a purchase. Of course I did just pre-order prologue today so it's not like I am complaining.

dalejrfanfreak

As certain website recently said:

Gran Turismo. It's a big deal. You may be part of the vocal minority who disagree, and you're entitled to do so, but the numbers just don't lie. We're talking more than 47 million units sold over the past decade. We're talking about a series that has moved PlayStation consoles off shelves like no other. We're talking about a videogame whose creator, Kazunori Yamauchi, made Motor Trend's 2007 Power List of those who make a significant impact on the automotive world - ahead of the CEOs of Honda and Ferrari.

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@cyhborg: "I'm sure they can come up with a simple damage system like they did in Dirt."

Too bad Polyphony Digital is not into simple things... If they are going to do it, they'll do it way over the top.

ara

This guy needs to build a bridge and get the fuck over it. Seriously, put the damage in and be done with it, let bmw cry in a fucking corner for a fucking day and then realize that they can masturbate again because some sixteen year old prick just asked his rich father for a beemer just cause he saw it playing gtfucking 5.

Rebelphoenix83

@ibelli: exactly what i was gonna say

flagg

With so many car manufacturers, if they put in car damage. Since all cars are not created equally, some will get damaged more easily, some will cost way over the roof to repair, so it's these manufacturers that are the first to say...no.

godrifle

@Luke Plunkett:

My favorite is when I smack straight into a wall at 165mph and nothing happens. It just feels... wrong.

Also, I'd rather have imperfect damage modeling than absolutely no damage modeling. I mean, either option has serious issues with realism, you might as well go with the more fun choice.

Gordon_Shumway

Am I the only one who doesn't care if the cars get damaged? Of course, that may be directly related to my complete lack of interest in Gran Turismo.

Which also may be directly related to the fact that I suck royally at realistic racing sims. Hmm.

Burnout, ftw!

budash2

I'm looking forward to your balanced review of the game that you don't seem to have pre judged in any way.

Most Wanted

@Dir_en_grey: Ah, I didn't realize that newer cars were impervious to damage. I gotta go out and get a new model right now!

eastx

Hell, at this rate they may catch up to what the first Forza had on the original Xbox -- online and damage modelling...

jynxce

@Astrofox: Dude, you come across as quite the fanboy.

eastx

@robokasey:
I have to agree. And it doesn't bother me.

Also, I tend to notice those who whine about not having damage don't even really like racers or end up playing them much. Be it arcade or simulation styled. This is just my observation, it's of course not always going to be true.

KrsJin

I have been playing the prologue since i picked it up this morning (Sad, i know, but hey, people play WoW 24 / 7 right?) and i have to say, allthough at first dissaopinted with the news it wouldn't have crash damage, but its just such a visually beautiful experiance, and after playing burnout, NFS etc, its nice to be able to race and not focus on being the most agressive prick on the track, its good to take those corners, pull them off flawlessly and continue onwards.

ryivanV2

I don't think the manufactures care about their older models, but it totally make sense if they don't want their brand new '08/'09 model cars to not run after a few bumps.

Having your brand new car that you spent loads of money designing/developing on and plan to sell that to as many people as possible for your main source of income, having it not run after one wreck is a bad image, no matter how you think about it, right?

Dir_en_grey

think of it this way...model 500+ cars in 3d..takes a long time right?...now take every single one and model damage on it...yea, now you know why it's not there. we want this game on ps3 not ps4 right?

robokasey

Man, destruction derby for the PSX still has the best damage simulation in any game. Nothing beats trying to keep your triangles from turning red....

Scazza

Anyone who thinks GT is realism has a serious schizophrenic disorder. I know there was a show showing racers playing it, but that was only to memorize the layout of the courses. Just get with the damage already, the bumper car sim is tired. There have been four of them already, what more is there to do with it?

zPhreak

I cant believe you are being so nitpicky about why they claim they have had problems with deformation and car damage... why does that matter?

It's their business and I think we can trust one of the legends of car racing games to do it right. Everyone thinks things are so simple... "PGR did it so just do it!"... things are never as simple as they seem. Especially when co-ordinating many many multinational car companies to come to an agreement on a Japanese videogame.

"Expect deformation in the very near future: very, very soon."

Did you read that part Luke? That is awesome news... AMAZING news. Soon we will have the best looking and best playing driving game ever- with the only thing it was lacking.

1080p, 60fps, absurdly real car models and interiors... I'm sorry but I have to defend Polyphony for doing all this and then getting the third degree on how they should have co-ordinated and implemented car deformation yesterday.

Astrofox

mm... many people got angry about GT5 not having damage sim in the models, but the ones angry with that don't have a PS3 and doesn't really care or want GT5, they just talk to mock and justify a game like Forza.

Gambare

@chilicoke: thank you!
As for you "if blank can do it so can GT" people, go play blank then with the other 500k people playing it. I'll play the one that sells more, and sells more for a reason. Junkies. Boom Crash Smack! There did i satisfy your little infantile obsession? Was that realistic enough? Maybe I'll make a mod that you can download where i make noises like a dragging muffler, or explosions, and you too can be "AWESOME"!
fuckn gen-why culture.

theprof00

Turn the damage to simulation and then see what happens to your car in wreck on Forza. Most people leave it on cosmetic or limited. Make a glancing blow and take a glancing amount of damage. Hit a wall full on at 200 mph and see how well your car drives after that. The damage model for Forza on simulation is rather well done.

gogators88

sorry for double post

Ramza

Damage NEEDS to be in a Simulator - It's not racing without it! There needs to be risk involved when calculating that hair splitting pass youre about to manuever otherwise you just get wreckless racing (especially online)!! PC Simracing fans know what I'm talking about!

Ramza

It's not a Driving simulation without damage. There NEEDS to be risk involved with racing, otherwise its not quite a simulation! You PC Sim Racers know what Im talking about!

Ramza

if they do include it, at least make it optional.

Sweet Tooth

I said it once and I'll say it again "to me, cars are like a work of art, forget car damage"

Sweet Tooth

PLEASE, do not put generic damage in a game as beautiful as GT5! If he wants to add damage please do it right, give us real-time damage and scrap marks, none of that pre-modeled stuff.

chilicoke

@Polywhirl:
He looks like I imagined him, but paler. In any case, his expression in that picture is priceless.

TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles

i always liked having the cars in as much detail as possible along with real performance values. If they put in real deformation, it will expose the actual relative danger that each car model has. That's a big problem for car makers.
I don't think he is a liar sir. Project Gotham is all about fancy cars and often innaccurate control of them, whereas GT is as close to the real thing as possible.
I hope you understand what you are talking about Mr Editor.

theprof00

Honestly, that last line about the Jeans still has me boggled

shazmuscle

Couldn't the manufacturers attack him for libel if he was lying though?

slomo788

I buy his story. I mean have you checked the list of cars? GT freakin 2 had twice the amount of cars forza 2 did. It's really no surprise that they can't get all the manufacturer's to jump on if he really is telling the truth which i think. Until now. Here's a mans sim.

[www.rfactor.net]
[gtr-game.10tacle.com]

NessD12

Hopefully the next version of Forza will have better damage modeling both aesthetically and performance-wise after collisions, but it's decent as it is - and as far as a pure sim, no-arcade racer goes, Forza is king.

Reuptake

OK, so I'm playing this right now for review. Here's the thing: the DAMAGE modelling, I can live with. So the windscreens don't smash, whatever, that stuff's just cosmetic: PGR4 & 4's damage was a visual thing only, and we all got over that.

But the COLLISION modelling is a SERIOUS problem. There's no excuse for having you hit a wall at 150kmh and just bouncing off it like a marshmallow. Or ramming into a car at 190kmh and your POV and performance barely taking a hit. It's stupid.

Luke Plunkett

@jsf49: That's what I was thinking too.

ph15h

I agree that this whole thing has much more to do with them not being entirely sure how to handle damage in terms of "realism" rather than the companies not being willing to do it. Like what's been said, just look at Project Gotham Racing.

Honestly I think Gran Turismo has kind of enjoyed the "bumper car" mentality that people are allowed to have in their games, I think they figure the arcade-ish crowd is satisfied by being able to race however they want without fear of wrecking their car, and the hardcore audience is obviously happy with the huge amount of cars/detail/specs/etc.

Once you put damage in the game, people actually have to start RACING, and the casual race gamer doesn't like that very much.

Just put damage in the game and give people the option to turn it off already.

mva5580

You know as soon as they get those last manufacturers to sign up they will go all Burnout and have cars exploding at random. It will be awesome.

DaftDethMonkey

@TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles: Have you actually seen Plunkett? [kotaku.com]
It doesn't matter which one of those he is, either way, he's gorgeous.
Though I won't deny that I find Crecente and McWhertor more attractive.
And I'm straight. I swear. I'm just stating a fact I can recognize regardless.

Polywhirl

The problem is it already takes them 5 year to make a damn game. If they add damage they will have to delay the game at least 2 years to get that in.

akumadiavolo

Has anyone else pictured Luke in his favorite jeans? Why did you write that? As a writer, you have some responsibility. Part of that responsibility is not forcing disgusting images into my mind.

TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles

@Lou3000:
"The "perfection" thing is just an excuse."

Just saw your post, but I agree because GT isn't aspiring to be a 100% sim that's accurate down to every detail. It's trying to get close enough for some of the more hardcore fans, but also accessible enough for people used to arcade driving games. If they went 100% realistic, the game wouldn't be so popular.

stopcrazypp

Ditto. If they get the crashing and wrecking and deformation right in this game, it will be reason enough for me to break down a buy a PS3. If they don't, i won't. That simple.

danjlove

Ordinarily, I'd agree with your statement, Luke. Hell, I've said the same about the GT series in the past. But the thing is, GT is about as close as they come to being a direct simulation of the car itself. When you think of what game is considered the defacto auto sim, what comes to mind? Usually GT.

These car companies don't just see their car in this game, they see an advertisement as to their manufacturing reputation. They don't care in those other games, because things like PGR is so far gone on the realism scale that their likeness is all they lend to the game. In this game, they are giving them technical specs, diagrams, numbers usually hidden from the public...

I think it sucks, don't get me wrong. You shouldn't be able to pinball your way down the highway bouncing off every car and wall in your way without so much as a scratch. But I can also see why a lot of car companies don't want to see the realistic replicas of their products being smashed into little bits.

PapaBear434

@oddgit:

Bingo. They want to actually simulate crash physics and real-time deformation, and not half-ass it like burnout with pre-canned deformation physics.

SnakeCL

@Lou3000:
Yeah, I'm surprised people this bring this up as an excuse. It's not a new idea at all. As mentioned, the old ass NFS4 had this years ago. It's entirely doable to make damage realistic both in terms of visuals and performance. GT also isn't a completely 100% hardcore sim either b/c it does cater to arcade racers too. (look to some of the smaller PC titles like lfs for 100% hardcore sims which don't require you to switch tires to get accurate physics and can directly run on driving sim hardware)

+ Watch video

I don't understand why GT continues holding out on doing damage. It's not manufacturers, because plenty of games had damage from cars of all different manufacturers. Maybe the creators don't like seeing the cars smashed up, but they don't have to lie about the reason.

stopcrazypp

Noks415: Forza cosmetic damage is terrible, and the handling effect of a crash isn't perfect, but it is much better than not having it at all.

I'm all for being a perfectionist, but we will never see this game if every minute detail is perfect. I don't know for sure, but I think that when car company's do crash tests, they have super computers monitoring the outcome.

The "perfection" thing is just an excuse.

As for number of cars, I really don't care as long as they have most of the ones I want to drive.

Lou3000

90% of people*

Viet0ne

They dont put damage in the game because then the game wouldnt fun to play as 905 of people would never finish a race.

There has yet to be a single successful game that had a "good" damage system.

Viet0ne

My theory on the topic has been mentioned by a few people now, the GT games have always tried to be pretty realistic both in their physics and their look. I would imagine that Polyphony does not want it to look like generic damage like in other driving games and when you you get damaged it actually does something. I am thinking its more of the first one, they probably want to incorporate some crazy ass damage simulation system based on the actual chassis and makeup of the car, like a full on simulation.

oddgit

For what it's worth, Project Gotham Racing really doesn't compare to Gran Turismo in any respect, especially in popularity, so there could be some validity in what Yamauchi is saying.

Frankly, I don't really care if there's any deformation or cosmetic damage to the cars when I'm playing. The only thing I care about is damage that affects the performance of the vehicle. If it's got that, I'm all set.

big_world

please make it a simulator.

real life has damage. SIMULATE IT!

alby13

While I would prefer damage-modeling, I'll buy this game with or without it, but I'll do so when the complete game comes out, not some extended feature ladened demo. I want the complete package.

Trowble (XBL/PSN)

@Lou3000: If I remember correctly, the number of cars and manufacturers present in Forza is nowhere near the number in GT3 and 4; it makes sense it would be a bigger problem then for the GT series to allow damage, since they have to convince *everyone*, or they can't do it...either that, or leave out cars from manufacturers who refuse to allow damage, which also kinda sucks...

verrius

Luke, you really should get new jeans.

The_Antihippy

My points of reference are Midnight Club and Burnout. You can smash your cars pretty badly in those games, doors come off and everything, but it doesn't hamper you at all in performance. Plus you don't die, you just get a new car and are penalized a little bit.

jsf49

@Lou3000: I've played forza, and yes the damage and its after effects are present, but it isn't the most realistic outcome. Im not sayin that forza isn't great, but Yamauchi is a crazy perfectionist. So if and when he includes car damage he probably wants it to be as realistic as possible.

Noks415

@Noks415:

I'm sure they can come up with a simple damage system like they did in Dirt.

cyhborg

@Lou3000: Forza does it but not in a very realistic way, and that's probably the only thing that bugs me about forza, because I can wreck one side of the car and have absolutely no problems turning and drifting.

If you're going to do damage modeling in a realistic sim (Forza and GT) you'll have to be realistic about the effect of damages in your car's performance.

zoesch

@ibelli: I think he means before GT5 regular edition (not prologue) is released. They aren't very good about dates or being timely, so I think very, very soon to them means this iteration of GT5, as oppossed to GT6. Remember, there still isn't a GT mobile for PSP.

munchausen

Even though Luke doesn't seem to believe it, I do. I think that certain manufacturers were against the idea. Some companies are okay with it.

I'm not into racers in anyway, but I'm going to make GT5:Prologue my very first and possibly only racing title.

Great soundtrack also.

sascha23

Well I'm sure the game producers can do whatever they want to do with the car models they paid. However, I seriously doubt that Polyphony paid to have cars like Suzuki Swift or Daihatsu Copen on GT5 prologue. If some manufacturers doesn't want to have their models to crumble, Polyphony won't have much of choice but to disable the effect.

ywpark

@jsf49: I think your explanation is the most logical. When you think about, its a probably a tedious job trying to figure out exactly how a collision affects the car.

Noks415

Never played Forza, but if you say so.

jsf49

@jsf49: Yeah because Forza doesn't do that at all.

Lou3000

I think that the issue must be about the extent to which cars are damages and how it affects performance in the context of other (competing) vehicles. PGR is a good game, but its no GT in terms of its reputation. GT is supposed to be real, a simulator and I bet that manufacturers are going to be a bit concerned about how their cars stack up not only performance wise, but the perception of damage and safety in their vehicles. Remember, youre supposed to be able to test drive cars using GT5.

ibelli

If you are able to smash up your Ferrari in a driving simulation and still be competitive in the race, it's really not much of a driving sim.

jsf49

Maybe it's one of the crappier car companies opposed to it. Everybody assumes it's the high-end cars that don't want it. Maybe Honda just doesn't want a scratched up accord.

@TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles: I like the beautiful cars. Working much, much harder to make the cars look crappy seems kind of a waste.

Polywhirl

@PSN ID: Kadaj24: Well, assuming Luke is right and the only reason that there isn't car damage is that he personally doesn't want to see it, by lying he can claim that he wanted to do it but the car manufacturers wouldn't let him when people complain.

Nirolak

"bring a dash of realism to the series, will you?"

Refering to Gran Trurismo, that's a new one.

JayD16

I heard that they said they don't want to add damage unless they can also simulate the effect on driving from the damage. It's a driving sim, after all. Smashing up your car should really handicap you in a race, maybe to the point that you are disqualified for not being able to continue (as in real life) or your guy dies in a fiery explosion (again, as in real life).

jsf49

Yeah. Doesn't make sense. And what does "very, very, soon" mean anyway?

ibelli

What incentive would Yamauchi have to lie about it though?

PSN ID: Kadaj24

This is what has always pissed me off about GT. Why won't the put in car damage? Everyone else does it, and it's freaking awesome.

TheEngineer: Rocking the Goggles

So HD graphics but still cant beat PC-NFS4?...

TOCATL

work on getting that goddamn lamborghini and porsche license while youre at it

tecknical

With or without damge, I'll buy this.

Amazon_Chris

watch... ferrari's are going to be completely indestructible.

equin0x

@Viet0ne: @dadeisvenm:

I was about to write an essay in rebuttal but you guys did the work for me! Excellent posts mates.

For all the people who just don't get it and never will, please go play Burnout or something. Thanks~

Type-R

Hate to break this to you Luke, but this isn't a "wafer thin excuse". Car manufacturers do not like their super safe family vehicles to be shown as crumpling like a piece of paper in a way that would kill everyone inside. It's bad for their cars/company image.
Some games get around it by paying out the nose for the right to destroy brand name cars. Others get around it by just having cars that look similar to the real life variety, but don't actually share the name/logo.
Had to deal with this while working on the original juiced game.

Morkath

Am I the only one who realizes that GT has an insane amount of concept cars? Do you really think that the auto maker want to see they're premiere cars getting slammed into walls? No they don't. So it's going to take so convincing. How many concept cars did Forza have?

svexo

I agree that there's really no weight to the argument that "car manufacturers didnt want us to damage the car models," and we should've had car damage a couple of iterations of GT ago. But that said, when GT games do have car damage, I really how they tone it down as a simulation aspect or let me turn the feature off completely. I find it takes long enough to earn the credits necessary to buy the next car I want, and if the cars realistically accumulate dirt and debris and damage then I imagine having to pay precious credits to put it through the car wash along with having to get repairs done. I admit it: I'm not the best at GT games, I crash a lot. If I can continue to crash a lot and not have it effect my profile and credits, I'm all for it. I guess there's no real point to worrying, it would seem ultra silly if they made it so I couldn't quit out of a race I was inevitably going to lose because my car was damaged, without having that damage and everything else that occured during that race disappear into the ether of the never-happened. Then again, it's a simulation. Events don't un-unfold in real life. Hmmm.. Should I be worried?

Strange Bedfellows

Why is destructible car models such a big deal? I could care less if my suspension suffers a 10% reduction in efficiency. And I would definitely hate it if my car starts listing a certain direction... I just think it takes the fun away from driving amazing cars.

Confession: The only game system I have ever bought is the PS3, and I have never played any GT game before. I just wanna know why this is such a thorn in so many sides?

You want to fuck up your car, play burnout. You'll have a lot more fun crashing. When I drive a Ferrari, I want my mistakes forgiven.

iamcool388

yea....its gonna come and by very very soon he probably means in the 2009 release, omg this game will own, graphics, gameplay, please Polyphony shut those xbox fanboys up with a badass game...

robinhood1086