Strange amount of ignorance (or apathy?) toward the development cycle. The company's prime goal is to make money by continuously providing worthwhile products. It's not something that's exclusive to gaming; if any one company had a product that didn't satisfy consumer's demands en masse, they have to kiss that development money goodbye. Or make movie licensed games.

With the increase functionality and features that are expected of said development teams, it's almost guaranteed the result will be flawed. Looking at this 'Bogart' update, for example, with the minor 5.1 audio bug. It's only recently that sound really played such a vital role to the experience, so it's not remotely fair to make comparisons with the NES or PlayStation 1 era.

To expect a flawless product with the damning development times and the publishing companies breathing down their backs is ridiculous. Not all titles fit this, of course. But the time should be taken, the respect given for teams that manage a genuinely unique and/or fun experience for the (comparatively) cheap sixty dollars.

JKPierce

@TechnoDestructo: The main difference between this gen and previous gen is online multiplayer. Granted most of the problems listed in the patch would apply to single player as well and therefore should have been caught in playtesting, but online poses a lot of problems.

Online goes against the standardisation of consoles, with differeing connection speeds, ping rates and VOIP hardware of each user. That sort of thing cant be caught in playtesting. At least this gen we have HDD's to make patching possible and fix these problems.

OtakuPunk

@Horseflesh: yeah they call that EAce!

excel_excel

@TechnoDestructo:

You think the last generation was without bugs???

Lucky you!

At least they can now fix them and not just release a game and forget about it.

will

@TechnoDestructo: I agree that we won't be able to enojy this generation of gaming in the same way as when we pull out the PSone or the SNES. The current market for games has changed to a point though where a company has to push products out as soon as consumer interest hits it's high, otherwise they may never recoup the money they put into it. We just have to pray that the current game companies have some kind of support for past games in the future, like Sony have shown with PSone games on PSN or Nintendo with the VIrtual Console. We may have to rebuy games, but at least they will work or even be better than the original product.

el_rezzo

@excel_excel: They probably DID catch a lot of that in playtesting. Games gotta make dates so people who know jack shit about games can make their money!

Horseflesh

@TechnoDestructo: I agree to an extent, theres been some great stuff this gen but for godsake shouldn't they catch all this is playtesting??

excel_excel

Still no option to take DJ Atomika out of his building and run him over like he so adores?

Dyson

@TechnoDestructo: Uh...yes.

Luke Plunkett

How long are these updates going to be available?

If I dig out my X-box 15 years from now, will I be able to play this game without glitches?

Will I be able to find the update files on some classic gaming site, and install them onto my X-box? Or must it be done by whatever automated installer they have, and is it impossible without it?

Because if that's the case, that really sucks.

Why should I buy a console at all, if the games are buggy and require updates like PC games? Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose? I thought standardized hardware was supposed to prevent that?

This console generation has been utterly underwhelming.

TechnoDestructo

the last patch broke my friend chat on the 360.
After playing the game I couldn't start or accept friend chat requests. I had to clear my update cache and it worked fine. Never played it again after that.
So if you can't start a voice chat or invite friends to your games, try clearing your cache.

"Go to the system blade and then select memory. Press Y on the HD symbol and then press X,X,Left Bumper, Right Bumper, X,X. Once you do this a messsage will appear saying: Do you want to perform maintenance on your Xbox 360 storage devices?
Performing this function will also clear any software updates." - teamxbox.com

oman83

@Dyson

if you disable "Hints", then DJ Atomica will shut up for all eternity.

Asbestos_Underwear

@JKPierce:
Very good comments there...

enewtabie

@OtakuPunk: The 'standardization of consoles' remark is a little funny. Think of the demands on the development teams with PC gaming; at least the console market can guarantee a set hardware standard (sans the 360's hard drive). The only thing left is what you addressed, but it's been pervasive in Online gaming since its inception.

What we have here is more Online aspect affecting functionality; problems with drop-outs interfering with game mechanics and stuffs.

JKPierce

@denki: That one thing that happens sometimes on that one system? Yeah. Fridge-breaking stuff there.

JKPierce

Its "characteristics", as a used car salesman would tell you.
Or, as beta testers would say, "features." I don't have BR:P, but all those A class bugs- especially crashes on takedown, is pretty fucking inexcusable. I'm suprised more class-action lawsuits don't come out of things like that- it would be like owning a TV that automatically turns off when you change channels, or a fridge that explodes when you take out the mustard. It shouldn't happen. You don't need mustard.

denki

@TechnoDestructo:
You'll be downloading this generations games to your cell phone in 15 years. who cares if you can't find the patch for Burnout Paradise? I'll be playing the Burnout Planet MMO on my VR shades. Well actually I'd downloading the patch to fix the neurological feedback issue that killed two people a week before.

luigilogik

@TechnoDestructo: Wow, somebody pissed in your Corn Flakes, didn't they?

darkandlong

The last generation definitely had some bugs, but they took a lot longer in development and QA ironing them out.
Now I daresay with online services becoming so prevalent, they have a slightly more lax approach to QA and would rather rush games out. Lots of companies have been guilty of this lately, and I'd say it is inexcusable. I am fortunate enough to be online with all my consoles but what of those who aren't??

But as for Burnout Paradise: am I the only one who finds the GPS horrible?? They really need to revamp the system. I consider myself a fairly decent and experienced Burnout player, however I find myself really struggling in some races because I'm looking at the GPS systems and trying to figure out what comes next and where to turn etc. and then it's too late and I have crashed. Maybe I just suck lol, but I think it could do with some tuning.

Y2Jason

Yeah i've never understood people comparing SNES or even PS1 games to todays generation of games. Todays games are far far more complex, not to mention not all developers are given the time to fully iron out all bugs. Hell, at least your getting updates, there was a time consoles didn't receive updates at all. It would be very easy for them to release a game and then give no more support for it ever again.

I can't remember the saying with programming but its something along the lines of "you fix something here and something over there breaks"

As for this generation being "underwhelming", well thats a load of crap in my opinion.

Tiberian

@mossberg: You make it sound like some kind of all-inclusive typing cult.

Seeing how talking at the screen for a discussion isn't that effective...

JKPierce

you people type to much..

mossberg

I love me some Burnout Paradise, but haven't been motivated to play. Maybe this will get me back in the driver's seat.

Black_Ops_19

@JKPierce: Unless they've changed in the past few years, the final step in beta testing is provided by the console publisher to make certain that the software adheres to the QA standard. Things like (for the PS2): The Playstation logo doesn't fade out, just cuts completely to the next visual; the memory card is at all times labeled in the game as "PLAYSTATION MEMORY CARD 8MB;" and other formalities that sound anal. But one of them is that the gameplay experience under normal use doesn't cause the system to hang or crash. If it were only happening to a very few systems, then we wouldn't see it being addressed in a patch. When shit like this happens and the hardware isn't at fault, then the publisher is liable to the console manufacturer, and if the console manufacturer finds them pre-launch then the game doesn't get greenlighted to be launched. That being said, everyone nowadays is getting lazy and looking for profit over everything else, so stuff like this gets missed. It isn't supposed to happen, it is checked repeately that it doesn't happen, so when it does happen it means from the publisher up everyone fucked up, and to an extent, are liable in not providing the user with the expected QA of gameplay. It's why TAITO offered free replacement discs to people that had crashy Bubble Bobble Rev UMDs, because if they didn't handle it they'd eventually get sued for it.

So yeah. It is fridge-exploding worthy. All bugs that cause a soft or hard lock or other such incredibly detrimental effects on the gameplay experience aren't called "class A" for no reason.

denki

Burnout Paradise was a HUGE let down. I've let the game glitch out twice, maybe three times before I gave up and admitted that the game is just not good. There is a major element to gameplay missing, I just can't put my finger on it.

Lizard_King

@TechnoDestructo: When you think about it, there's two reason's you probably won't have a problem updating the game in 2020+. Either:

1) The kind of bandwidth required to perform these updates (say 100mb approx) will be so miniscule by then that Microsoft/Sony shouldn't have a problem keeping a single server up without affecting their profit.

2) The consoles will be so badly hacked by then that, well, anyone could download whatever updates/mods they want. It wouldn't really profit Microsoft or Sony to continue to protect the consoles when everyone's anticipating the PS5 and Xbox4.

ZeroBlitz

@TechnoDestructo: Go buy a Wii so you can still have bugs and no patching ability. That's better, right?

Rectangle

Wow, that's a lot of bugs fixed! This might motivate me to pick it up again, as I've been intercepted by my second play-through of Mass Effect.

SwedishChef

I continually fail to understand why people complain about updates that fix problems. It clearly shows a company's dedication to their product! Games today, especially their online components, are very complex and a testing schedule that would expose all of the online bugs would probably be cost-prohibitive. Once online play becomes more mainstream, testing methods will likely improve and we'll see fewer bugs (at least, from good developers and publishers). Furthermore, as projects increase in size and complexity, there's a high chance for bugs if development schedules aren't extended to accommodate.

I sure am glad they fixed the in-game voice chat on the 360- that one was nasty.

Xerxes3rd

@excel_excel: Not everything gets caught during testing, even during a long development cycle. Sometimes an issue will not come up until the product has already been distributed and played by the masses. In most cases a game will ship out with several bugs that require a ridiculous amount or simply very vague steps, these bugs may not surface during the testing cycle so no one will notice them.

There are some cases where an extremely obvious bug was missed due to poor bug testing, and a perfect example of this is in Saints Row. When driving along the freeway, there is a good 30% chance that everything in the environment will disappear and your game will hang for a good 3 seconds. Happened to me several times during my playthrough.

How do I know all this? I've worked in QA for 3 major publishers over the years, I currently work at a very respectable American developer. <3 QA.

Tons Of Fun

Hey... how about an update where you take out that Craptasic "Showtime" mode (which is intertaining for all about 10 seconds) and put CRASH mode back. God forbid you put back one of the things that MADE Burnout, Burnout.

Also... don't know how many times it has to be said.. how about a "RESTART RACE" option. Who cares about a load.. jeez.

MerlynNY

@Xerxes3rd: Because those without the internet are screwed. You can't sit there and tell me that games that came out on systems that couldn't be auto-updated (you know, every system except the PS3 and 360) were as broken as some of these games. The fact is, games are being released knowingly broken because they know they can just patch it later.

Do you remember DOA4? I'm telling you right now that game was so broken before patches that it should have warranted a recall. I still can't recommend anyone I know who doesn't have broadband buy a 360 because who the fuck knows which games will actually work on their system.

dowingba

I felt like I put on a retard cap when I went to read the comments for this one...

sparksterz (Xfire)

I just found Picture Paradise. If the timer were any longer I'd never have known about it.

I'm sad they didn't fix the bug where if you tie someone across the finish line, the game slams to a halt and loops the sound buffer as it crashes. That's the one that's hit me the most.

Ah well, I got sick of taking wrong turns and getting lost in free-roam hell so I play other racers now. I even got 50x the gameplay out of the broken Burnout Legends on PSP. :/

fuchikoma

"Enhanced 360 streaming performance stops instances where the game seems to pause for a second or so."

What? Paradise also has (or had?) this glitch? I remember this vividly from Burnout Revenge. Why can't they patch that game?

dowingba

@Xerxes3rd:
Some people collect games. You can buy a Saturn or PSX now, and some games, and plug it in and play.

But once current consoles are dead, you can buy one and some games, and the games are BROKEN. And good luck making the updaters work with an emulator - if the servers even still exist/host the patches.

fuchikoma

Good to hear low-speed and head-on takedowns have been revised. That was the biggest bullshit of the online experience.

crapsh00t

Still no 1080i PS3 fix. :/

ST19AG_WGreymon

I definitely will be glad to be able to talk to other people when I have more than 2 people in Freeburn Online. Other than that I never experienced the other problems, so that is just icing on the cake to me. ^_^

wired_fenix

fuchikoma: But once current consoles are dead, you can buy one and some games, and the games are BROKEN.

But it wouldn't matter anyway since once the current consoles are dead, you wouldn't be able to play these games online.

But the patches, that's easy. Like ZeroBlitz said. How hard is it really to keep a server up with the patches?

According to wikipedia, there are 948 original xbox games. Let's ridiculously assume that every game available has 1GB worth of patches and content. That adds up to just shy of 1 TB of data.

1TB hard drives currently retail for about $200-$250. I'm sure MS can find some space and bandwidth somewhere.

lordargent

Tiberian: Yeah i've never understood people comparing SNES or even PS1 games to todays generation of games. Todays games are far far more complex, not to mention not all developers are given the time to fully iron out all bugs.

Hell, all you have to do is look at the file sizes of your legally obtained NES and SNES roms and compare it to the file sizes of todays games and you can see how much more 'stuff' there is in a given game.

/then again, I have a 4GB quake 2 install thanks to a few hundred downloaded maps.

lordargent

We fixed Head-on Takedowns as these seemed generally unfair and unrealistic. Unfair low speed Takedowns have now been eradicated.

Well, that's one of a long list of my gripes gone.

lordargent

@MerlynNY:

Also... don't know how many times it has to be said.. how about a "RESTART RACE" option.

This.

humperdinck

@lordargent:
I didn't mention anything about online gaming. I mean some games have major issues that have to be patched before they're decent. Not most of them, but it can happen to any given one. My consoles don't game online now as it is.

It'd be super easy to keep a patch server online. That's the kind of thing the fan community could do - if they were allowed. How GUARANTEED is it? For how long? I hate to sound alarmist, but it's looking more and more like video game history will effectively end by 2015. Old games will only be playable on systems that got them patched back when they were still popular, or downloaded them in the same time frame and don't require authentication. Either that, or we'll just have to wait and rebuy them on every new system that comes by in order to keep playing them. If you want to describe a game to someone after its time is up, you'll have to use videos (probably shot on a camera due to HDCP and the like) or just show them the unpatched version with all the issues that were fixed after it shipped.

And as always, there's an exception for pirates as they have a nice way of stripping crap out and making things usable. I can afford to buy games now so I like to, but I've skipped some that will be unusable down the road (Echochrome USA), and bought some that I shouldn't have due to DRM (Bioshock PC).

fuchikoma

so i picked up my dualshock 3 today and burnout was the first game i fired up - except there was no rumble. anywhere. it's turned on for the controller... i didn't see any other options anywhere that might activate it... any other US burnout owners gotten it to work? maybe they are patching in rumble support later?

jwhall

@MerlynNY: I have a hunch that CRASH is going to be released as a standalone game.

cudthecrud

I never had a problem with the lack of a restart. Then again, I rarely lost a race. Maybe twice on my way to the Burnout license.

Rectangle

The fact is the first time a game is relased on a console, it has already gone through a MORE extensive QA process than most, if not all, PC games.

To say that a game is broken on a console, just because it comes out with a patch later, is inaccurate. The patch enhances the game, but it certainly does not mean the game was unplayable and broken beforehand.

Just look at the list of bugs they fixed. Where do you see any showstoppers?

baccardi84

@mugido:

Consoles don't have the excuse of having to account for a thousand different pieces of hardware with 3 or 4 times as many drivers.

@Masamuru123:

Crysis sucks. I don't know of any others offhand that fit that description right now.

@Rectangle:

No, it isn't. But would you care to know how many patches I had to download for my PS2...or how many times I wished there WERE a patch for something on the PS2? Zero. The only serious bug I ever inadvertently encountered on a console was the "Relm bug" in FFIII/VI (and that one was actually kind of cool). Any other glitches I've encountered have been a result of hardware failure, or scratches.

Ever since VGA became common on PCs, consoles have had two major advantages over PCs. Price (an advantage that has only narrowed over the years, particularly when a new generation of consoles are first introduced), and the fact that the games can be bug-free, or nearly so...that they JUST WORK.

The X-box got the ball rolling on ending that second advantage, and now the 360 continues to lead the charge to bring the disadvantages of PC gaming to consoles.

AND YOU PEOPLE ARE OKAY WITH THIS?

TechnoDestructo

@TechnoDestructo:

Oh sod off.
Yeha you can have opinions but if you think that nothing good has come outta console gaming and that patches are a bad thing then sod off and die with your PC games that can only be run by 2 grand computers.

Masamuru123

@TechnoDestructo:

Updating a game on a console is a whole different experience on the PC. You shouldn't have to on either system, but at least with consoles the updating experience is streamlined to a few presses of a button. I've played recent PC games that needed a patch to fix the in-game patching system that's supposed to make it similar to the console experience.

mugido

@mugido:

All I've been playing lately is the Orange Box and Diablo II, and patches for those don't even take a couple of button presses.

TechnoDestructo

Games are simply too complex these days to be delivered bug-free. It just isn't going to happen anymore, especially for games that are designed to play online. Sorry.

The next patch for Burnout is going to add some seriously cool new features to the game for free. That is nothing but good to me.

Yeah, I'm fine with games getting patched. In the past, when a game was released, if there was a bug, you were SOL. And no new features would ever be added. Now, all of this is possible due to online patches. Awesome, I say.

Rectangle

@TechnoDestructo: I've wondered this as well and it's a disturbing trend that's not going to go away anytime soon, if anything it's been getting worse. I think if you look closely at most AAA titles you see there's less and less polish and more and more hype. In Bio-Shock some areas have real-time reflections while others have environment maps, there were "balls of light" complete with reflections where there were no physical light sources, there's more but I won't get into it. Don't get me wrong I liked the game but it could have been so much better. It just bothers me when older games bother to put it realistic lighting, shadows, and reflections and newer ones think anything goes. Anyways back to the point, eventually they will stop supporting older games. Originally, they weren't even going to support BC on 360, the PS3 wasn't going to rumble, and the Wii had no harddrive ... bottom line is they don't care about the games or the experience, they care about cutting costs and making money.

hollowfreak

In the next update, i **really** need an option to turn off that f'ing intro song.

Lowrent

Wasn't this supposed to come out last month?

VixDiesel

@Dyson:
Sometimes I wish he was in the cars I wipeout so often in Burnout.

GAWD, he's annoying.

ShiNZ

@TechnoDestructo:
Calm down! From my experience on this game, it seems to be pretty bug free. And at least that they are trying to fix their mistakes, instead of ignoring them..

Also, you expect your "X(hyphen)box" to last 15 years?

ShiNZ

Customizable play lists for PS3 users and and option to mute that fucking DJ...please. :(

Replica23

TechnoDestructo: Consoles don't have the excuse of having to account for a thousand different pieces of hardware with 3 or 4 times as many drivers.

Not all bugs in games are the result of hardware.

lordargent

They still haven't fixed the crash mode glitch.

Rebelphoenix83

TechnoDestructo

TechnoDestructo: Most serious ones on PCs are.

You're missing the point a bit.

You said consoles can't use thousands of pieces of hardware as an excuse for bugs.

I said that not all bugs are caused by hardware incompatibilities.

Now you say that most of the serious ones are.

This is where I say, look at the list of bugs that they fixed in Burnout Paradise, and show me the bug that is the result of a hardware incompatibility.

The controller ones are iffy. But the rest seem to be either genuine non hardware related bugs, or 'features' that were undesirable (the head on takedowns for example).

My point is, even though the console doesn't have the excuse of having to support thousands of different hardware configurations, there's still plenty of other types of bugs to screw up a game.

At least now those sorts of bugs can get patched.

/got stuck in a wall in super mario brothers
/got stuck in a wall in zelda 2
/in both cases, I was doing something I probably shouldn't have been :P

lordargent