pc
Microsoft: "Perception," Not Us, is PC Gaming's Big Problem
Posted by Kotaku US Edition at 2:00 AM on April 23, 2008
Though it's currently trendy to declare the imminent and grisly demise of the PC gaming market, there are some legitimate concerns amid all of the sensationalism. Much-publicised NPD numbers showed retail PC sales slumping by $65 million between 2006 and 2007, while the console gaming market continues to burgeon year-over-year. While it's quite true that these numbers quantify only PC retail box sales and not subscription revenue - like how much WoW makes every month - there are issues at hand that are harder to quantify with raw data.
With steep hardware specifications, difficult and inconsistent installs, convoluted patching processes and unstable operating systems, the PC has developed a problematic barrier to entry for most consumers, who've voiced their difficulties in one crucial way — they've moved to consoles. So what will become of PC gaming?
Microsoft understands that the market has looked to it to save the PC gaming industry, says Kevin Unangst, senior global director for Windows Gaming. "There are more gamers on the PC platform than any other platform, and yet retail sales are going down," he adds. "It is a decline which makes us go, 'hmm... is there a problem here?' We saw an opportunity and an obligation. We are the platform leader; we own the platform. We need to make sure we do the right thing."
Unangst calls the last twelve months of Microsoft's Games For Windows effort "the first full year in the market." But the initiatives were announced just about two years ago, at E3 2006. Now, following a clumsy Vista rollout that sure hasn't appeared to be "the right thing" for gamers, and continuing issues confronting a broad adoption of PC as a gaming platform, what exactly is Microsoft doing?
According to Unangst, the PC market is actually growing; he says the struggle at retail basically comes down to the fact that PC gets second-class treatment in the public eye as a gaming platform. So, he says, most of the effort so far has largely come down to a branding campaign to address declining retail sales.
"We stepped up; we did a couple things," he says. "We looked at the packaging... PC games were in the back [at the store] and just looked like bookshelves rather than games. We addressed the retail issue by spending millions of dollars in retail in the U.S. and Europe to work with Target to move the PC gaming aisle out of the back and up next to the console games. And also at GameStop, where we worked in branding for not only the PC gaming section, but in over a thousand of their stores, Microsoft paid for and worked with them to install PC gaming kiosks. Those customers can be more engaged and try things out. No one had done that before for PC games."
Microsoft also created the Games For Windows branding program — pretty much, it's a logo on the box that lets publishers like Activision and EA sell their PC titles under the "Games For Windows" brand name without paying royalties.
Moving the shelves closer to the front of the retailer, offering kiosks and putting a stamp on the box might be marketing 101-type tactics to improve sales figures, but what has Microsoft accomplished since 2006 as far as improving the PC gaming experience? "It takes time," Unangst maintains. "When you look at things like retail and advertising and building up brand programs and impacting games in the process of shipping, it takes years of investment to start seeing that really show up."
And, he says, the Games For Windows branding initiative is more than just a logo on a package. "There's a set of 25 different tech requirements these games must meet," he explains. "The installation [process], support for specific hardware, or if a game is running on Vista it needs to support Games Explorer... those types of things. It's all about raising the baseline experience, offering users an easier option... so you don't have to answer 17 quesstions to get the game to install."
But it sure has looked as if Vista and its Game Explorer are part of the problem, not the solution. Unangst doesn't agree, though. "We're very happy with the sales of Vista so far," he says.
So, when consumers are having widespread problems with gaming on their PC, the solution is a brand campaign aimed at raising sales numbers? And a large-scale public backlash against Vista is not a problem as long as the sales numbers are good?
"There is a curve," admits Unangst on the slow uphill climb towards broad and stable Vista adoption. He pointed to the operating system transitions of previous eras; Unangst has been with Microsoft nearly 18 years, and some of his first work was on the equally tricky Windows 95 launches. "When we moved to XP there were very similar concerns.... [about] expensive new hardware. Game developers and video card makers had to rewrite drivers for the operating system. We've now had Vista out for over a year; we've attacked this on a couple of fronts and it continues to get better."
What should frustrated users do, then? "We hope they will try Service Pack 1," he says.
He mentions the company's investment in DirectX 10 — but the support doesn't really seem to be quite there yet, does it? "The hardware install base is huge now," Unangst disagrees. "There are now some 60 million people that can run it. Would I have liked to have had it closer to the launch of Vista? Absolutely."
So, Unangst admits it would have been better to have the support closer to Vista's launch, but he's still pleased with the way Microsoft's PC gaming initiatives have been going. "We went to publishers, we've got the majority of top publishers signed up who've been delivering games... they've delivered some really high-quality AAA titles. These are big games that came out, like Crysis and BioShock and World in Conflict. These were some of the big award winners.
Crysis is hardly an example of a title that anyone with a PC can pick up and play, though. "Well, they've sold quite a bit of units," Unangst declares. "Crytek wants to push the envelope - and that's what's great about the PC. The common problems that people are seeing, we address. We're trying to solve actively... the requirements of getting it on your system. The other side of it that is just as important, is providing guidance to both developers and customers that say... there is a consistency that the game you buy will run on a particular piece of hardware. In Vista, we invested in the Windows Experience Index that is a simple way of communicating... especially when compared to the expectations consumers have for consoles."
The Experience Index, explains Unangst, assigns a certain number to your computer based on certain requirement capacities. But if you know your PC's number, can you then look at a box in the store and find out if the number, and therefore your requirements, match? Not yet. "It's on the way," Unangst explains. "The system is built into Vista... every Games For Windows-branded title is required to compute those numbers and make a recommendation, but we haven't seen broad adoption of this on packaging at retail."
So as of yet, unless you know hardware and software very well, there's no way of telling at a glance in the store whether you have the ability to run a given game. And while PC loyalists are savvy about their tech, what about a new and broader audience which might not even know how to find out which version of a Web browser they use? "Publishers have to put this on the box," Unangst admits. "Developers come to us and want to make a game that will ship in Holiday 2010 — and that's a year and a half out. One of the other efforts that Microsoft has been involved with is the PC Gaming Alliance, to try and address some of these broad industry problems... to forecast that [hardware] guidance so that developers can make an informed decision when they want to make a game that runs on the broadest choice of hardware, or make a scaleable experience."
That scalability, Unangst says, is the real strength of PC as a platform — but why does it seem that only cutting-edge PCs are appropriate for gaming? "We can do a better job of giving guidance to developers," Unangst concedes.
But according to Unangst, everything's going just fine for PC gaming. The widely publicised NPD numbers that raised the flag of alarm on the health of the PC gaming industry are actually a source of confidence to him: "When you look back to some of the [NPD] numbers for this year, just in 2007... more people in the US bought Windows games at retail than they did for the Wii," he says. "It's 36 million units for PC games, versus 31 million units for wii. When you look at the numbers from DFC Intelligence, people spent more money on PC games, including online distribution, than they did on PS3 games in the U.S. in 2007. When I try to do an apples-to-apples comparison, surprising figures come out.
But when pressed, Unangst did identify the areas of concern on which he says Microsoft is currently hard at work. "It's the product issues we're working on... the installation needs to be easier. We need a consistent way... to have user IDs without different clients. People are unable to play with friends. These are the services we need to build and we're continuing to invest in. We've made great progress, but there's still more to be done - when you walk into a store it'd a carnival for the consoles. There's... all the demos and the lights and the great retail. Microsoft has had to get quite a bit of money to... treat the PC as a first-class citizen there. We have to do a better job of communicating the value of PC and giving it more credit."
Unangst is right when he says that the most widely publicised picture of the PC game space isn't the whole picture — it doesn't capture the growth of web-based casual games, WoW's millions of monthly subscribers, Valve's healthy Steam sales and other digital distribution, or the microtransactions revenue of PC products like Gaia Online or Nexon's MapleStory, both of which also have hefty userbases. And, continues Unangst, these PC-only game opportunities are part of the platform's strength."There is a reason you don't see WoW on the console; the gameplay is fantastic on the PC," he points out.
So, everything's just great in PC-land? Does Unangst see any barriers that prevent or limit some users from gaming on PCs? "The biggest barrier to PC gaming is the perception that there is a barrier," he says. "I mean that very seriously."
So if you're having issues gaming on your PC, it seems you should blame your "perception," not Microsoft.

Comments (AU Comments · US Comments)
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gils0n
Posted 2:58 AM 23/4/08
tl;dr but the pic that went with the post title is fucking classic. :D
gils0n
zyberteq
Posted 2:55 AM 23/4/08
lenghty read, but insightful.
I was thinking Steam all the time, but I'm only using it thanks to Half-Life 2 (and ep1 + orange box). I still haven't made another purchase on steam. I might though.
They're right on all the hardware issues. For someone who doesn't know his/her hardware it can be quite difficult to know if it will run. I don't have that problem, but i know a lot of people that have "a new pc", but they will not be able to run Crysis or Bioshock, not smoothly anyway, and certainly not with nice graphics like you see on consoles.
my machine is now 2.5yrs old, and Assassins Creed and Crysis and such run fine on my hardware (but it was high-end back then and i'm still using a 17" TFT)
Steam could also make that easier, the program knows the system. so why not just show if your system is capable of running game X? haven't seen something like that, but it would be a brilliant addon. or show minimum required, and your specs added, like some games do.
zyberteq
arstal
Posted 2:54 AM 23/4/08
PC gaming is going to have to change. Some companies have already- and they are the ones who are going to make money. The PC is still a viable platform, just not for non-MMO $50mil budget games.
arstal
Chewbenator
Posted 2:54 AM 23/4/08
I wholeheartedly agree that Microsoft has played a large role in trying to kill PC gaming. If you look at the xbox they have a great subscription matchmaking, somewhat social networking platform. Then you look at Games for Windows and what is it a window that shows your games? I guess streamlining the install process is great but what else are you doing? Steam on the other hand does pretty much everything that xbox live does for a console for PCs and it is sad that Microsoft didn't just port their already designed platform to PCs considering that they control 90% of gaming because of their operating system.
However I have to say that if Microsoft put out an all purpose console ie. office, internet explorer, gaming, xbox live, I would be very tempted to replace my PC even if the price was double that of current consoles. Then again, isn't that what a PC is? If they could just put as much effort into the PC as a gaming platform as they have for the xbox franchise I think they could really boost up sales and all that jazz, but as it is right now they are really competing with themselves and complaining about it.
Chewbenator
Overlord44
Posted 2:53 AM 23/4/08
I strongly disagree. Vista IS the problem, and there's no chance in hell I'm buying it. I'm sticking to XP and my next box will be running Linux - if a PC game requires Vista, I'm not running it.
Overlord44
merck
Posted 2:52 AM 23/4/08
how about a dx10 xp upgrade hmm M$?? hmmm hmmmm?? HMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmm??
Solves vista nagging issues + no mumbo jumbo crap!! DX10 on XP FTW!!
GO GO GO M$!! Fulfill the gamer's dreams!
merck
Sullyville
Posted 2:51 AM 23/4/08
Three suggestions to revive PC gaming:
(1) No Vista Exclusives. The majority of PC gamers game on XP. This poor decision killed Shadowrun and Halo 2.
(2) Release a PC game at the same time as the console version. Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, Halo 2, all come out about six months to two years after the console versions. If all PS3 games came out four months before the 360 version, you'd have a PS3 dominance right now.
(3) Don't make me have to have the disc in the computer for the game to run. I PC game so I can have eight games installed on my computer at once and on a whim choose whatever game I want to play. This is also why I agree to go through the lengthy install - so I don't have to have the inconvenience later on of finding the disc to put in the computer.
These three things would save PC gaming for me.
Sullyville
TwoSetBonus
Posted 2:49 AM 23/4/08
@tincow: Well said. Microsoft is clueless as to why this is. I bet they say to themselves "Well, this works here, so why not here?" That's a terrible mentality, looks only backwards, towards money, and not to progression. That's basically how I think the XBox got started.
As many above has said, consoles require no upkeep to play the latest game. It really is a pain in the ass to continually upgrade a PC for games every few months or so. Budget and knowhow are factors and frankly, people just want to pick up a controller and hop right in. And yes, the mouse and keyboard do frighten/alienate people. Even as people in general are probably more familiar with a keyboard and mouse, a controller coupled with the comfort of their couch and not an office chair is definitely a pull.
TwoSetBonus
juc
Posted 2:41 AM 23/4/08
I think the lack of online sales being shown in the NPD numbers is probably the biggest oversight.
In the past year I´ve spent more on computer games than I have in all my previous years gaming, however I only purchased one or two boxed games, the rest of them were via steam or some other digital distribution channel.
puchasing something online (provided you have an internet conncetion) is vastly more convenient than going into a store and looking for a game that you want, which often times they won't have unless it's a sequel to a blockbuster series of games.
juc
AceKicker
Posted 2:41 AM 23/4/08
From a marketing standpoint, this guy really does have some good insight, like it or not. PC games just aren't treated the same on the store shelves.
AceKicker
ShirtGuyDom
Posted 2:39 AM 23/4/08
@ShirtGuyDom: *a good one indeed.
ShirtGuyDom
Eldragon
Posted 2:39 AM 23/4/08
The biggest problem with PC gaming is that the mass market PC sales are no longer able to run games. Now you have to buy "Gamer" PCs from Dell and the like, which the average user would never pay for.
10 years ago, PCs sold in stores could play any game on the shelf. Now my local Best Buy does not even stock a PC that can run most games on the shelf.
There is an easy solution to the problem as well. PC makers will need to put slightly better video cards on their budget boxes, and game makers need to start selling games that play well on those Budget Boxes. Both sides need to go half-way on this one.
However PC gaming will never, EVER die. Why? because games don't need to be approved by MS/Sony/Nintendo to play on a PC.
Eldragon
FLYBOY611
Posted 2:39 AM 23/4/08
Its very true. I own Call of Juarez for the PC and there isn't a option to turn on V-Sync in the video options. Instead I have to go through the Nvidia control panel to enable it. Putting up with SHIT LIKE THAT might be part of the reason I bought a 360.
I GREW UP playing PC games and I'd hate to see them die but things like rampant assholes pirating games and other games like Crysis giving the public the wrong idea on hardware requirements KILLS the numbers for PC.
Above all, Dell needs to stop selling PCs with crappy integrated graphics to Joe homeowner.
FLYBOY611
Huatnee
Posted 2:38 AM 23/4/08
As there are many less variables in the hardware, and the desk life of them is generally longer, I wonder if the Mac will start to blossom as the PC fades, in terms of gaming?
No? Just my wishful thinking then!
Huatnee
ShirtGuyDom
Posted 2:38 AM 23/4/08
Microsoft still has a lot of work to do, especially in the retail area. I have still yet to find a gaming store (or a store with games in it) with a good PC games section. The notion of an expanded section and PC kiosks is a god one indeed.
Games for Windows standards? Wasn't Turning Point a "Games for Windows" game? Needs some work. But the fact that the initiative is there is good.
The Experience Index is a good idea: let people easily know if how well they can run a game before they buy it. Doesn't solve the problem of most PC gamers getting left behind due to the expenses inherent to the platform, but it's a shift towards unification.
I think Microsoft should just copy Steam. Problem solved.
And no, it's not our "perception," it's the fact that Microsoft has all of these plans for PC gaming, but hasn't initiated them. Once Microsoft gets all this good stuff rolling (and rolling well), then it would be our perception (if we still held it).
ShirtGuyDom
Tiber
Posted 2:38 AM 23/4/08
Sure the cost of buying a gaming PC is a big entry barrier, but I have to say the biggest problem with PC games for me is crashes. I'll probably take a PC version of a game over a console version because of extras like mods and (usually) free online. However, it gets ridiculous when no one would buy a console game that crashes half as often as some PC games.
Tiber
Flawless101
Posted 2:33 AM 23/4/08
@Tei: Exclusive where around long before the xbox.
Flawless101
pcgecko85
Posted 2:31 AM 23/4/08
I've talked to so many people who buy games from steam because the service is so convenient. It also makes updating easy! Valve has it right, and should just distribute every PC game.
pcgecko85
Buddy_DoQ
Posted 2:31 AM 23/4/08
I've purchased more PC games last year than I had in a long time. Most were indeed from Steam, but I did pick up a few more retail boxes than normal. Chalk it up to some killer titles like CoD4, Orange Box, Sins of a Solar Empire, and Crysis.
A few issues did come up like the whole Bioshock fiasco that never got resolved far enough to earn a purchase, and DX10/Vista falling on its face. On the whole? It's great times in PC land, especially if you're willing to use Steam, or you don't mind running a few 3rd party patches to clean up the nasties publishers like to pie-face you with.
Buddy_DoQ
MykalBloom
Posted 2:27 AM 23/4/08
Here's my problem with PC gaming. In 2001, I bought a Playstation 2. In 2007, when God of War 2 came out, I was able to play it flawlessly on that Playstation 2 that came out six years previous.
Had I bought a PC in 2001, with all the bells and whistles, there's no way it'd be able to handle games like Crysis, Unreal, hell, even things like Roller Coaster Tycoon.
PCs, so much more so that consoles, show their age is such obvious ways that it just isn't economically feasible to your typical gamer.
I'm in college, my money goes to tuition, books, food, and the occasional drink. When I can afford a game, it's like the lottery. And I expect that game to work on my console. I wouldn't ever pop in Call of Duty, and not expect to have enough RAM or worry about the graphics card I have, and whether or not the 900X GT TURBO ELITE was worth it.
At some point PCs became an exclusive club, and lost the accessibility to casual gamers. While I'm all for pushing the envelope and taking the next step, it shouldn't be at my expense.
MykalBloom
Simkin-phd
Posted 2:26 AM 23/4/08
I grew up with a PC as my only machine, then in college I got my consoles. Really, their is something to say about the ease of use argument (no spec to meet, expense, etc). To me those who PC gamed did it cause it was the only machine their parents allowed them to game on since its a duel function machine and it can actually do work as well.
But in the end I think the loss of the PC gaming market come down to one word. GAMES!!! Steam has brought more titles to the pc world, and most game available at the store are now available online. Why would you drive to the store to get it if you have broadband? Also, where is my innovation? the PC market used to be where new idea got fleshed out. But where is my ICO or Wii sports, or Katamari Damacy PC equivalents? In the end make good games and people will by them, just have to make its better than WOW...
ok made the pc market is doomed
Simkin-phd
panfriedcharlie
Posted 2:25 AM 23/4/08
Yep, with the myriad configurations and options in the PC market, it's hard to tell whether you're playing the game as the developers intended.
It's more sensible to just buy a console -- the developers can tweak their games to a standard set of hardware -- you know you're playing the game the way it was made to be.
I actually like the way things are now -- if you want to spend 2000 bucks on a box and upgrade your hardware every four months, then all of your games will look super -- more power to you and your wallet. Or you can just put down 350 bucks for a box on which you can rely (well maybe not in the case of 360) for a good three or four years.
Where's the issue?
panfriedcharlie
tincow
Posted 2:25 AM 23/4/08
I read it as "the crappy/mediocre FPS and hardcore action games that the console gamers inexplicably buy in mass quantities don't do as well on PC".
Big deal. MMORPG's rake in money. Steam is doing digital distribution better than anybody. Popcap games practically invented "casual gaming" and is also raking in money... the idea that it is dead because 'Army of Two' doesn't sell very well is stupid.
tincow
kosbee
Posted 2:24 AM 23/4/08
I see myself buying a new PC just for StarCraft 2.
Anyway...
PCs are THE development home for everything, in a manner of speaking. It's not like people sit at an open-source PS3 or 360 and plug away at code to make a game. I think the PC gaming scene is still going to be around in some form or another for a long time.
kosbee
nastysquared
Posted 2:24 AM 23/4/08
I used to game exclusively on the PC. Sure, I had my consoles but the PC was where I spent most of my hours. I was an original Unreal Tournament freak. However, over the years the PC industry has gotten far too expensive to keep up with. It seemed that every time a new game came out if I wanted to run it at all I needed a new video card... which meant a new motherboard because all the new video cards were PCI Express... which meant new memory, because all the PCI Express motherboards took DDR2... not to mention a new CPU and so on and so on. If upgrading your PC was as easy as picking up a new video card then I'd still be gaming on the PC, but anymore it seems like when you upgrade one thing you need to upgrade the whole shabang.
nastysquared
coalhalo
Posted 2:24 AM 23/4/08
Games For Windows failed to raise the profile of pc gaming as a marketing brand. Vista has been snubbed by the majority. And in order to play a game like Crysis on one of my pcs would require a substantial upgrade and that means spending alot of money.
To a gamer like me I would rather keep on investing in my consoles. They allow me to leave the desk and move to the living room and bedroom, which is much more comfortable and more sociable.
I would love to have a high-end gaming pc, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon.
coalhalo
flclkris
Posted 2:23 AM 23/4/08
@Tei: You're probably right.
flclkris
logan528
Posted 2:23 AM 23/4/08
spending millions of dollars in retail in the U.S. and Europe to work with Target to move the PC gaming aisle out of the back and up next to the console games. And also at GameStop, where we worked in branding for not only the PC gaming section, but in over a thousand of their stores, Microsoft paid for and worked with them to install PC gaming kiosks.
really you did?every local gamestop i walk into (just for the laugh factor) has one small rack with every pc title strewn where ever in a book shelf style. the local target i go to has a nicer set up but the are still in what would be the back no where near the console games.they are sandwiched in between the magazines and dvds.
perhaps they spent that millions in imaginary xbox points.
logan528
Ghede
Posted 2:22 AM 23/4/08
@Tei: If the rest of the post is any indication, you had a spell-checker but it committed suicide.
Ghede
Edge of Blade
Posted 2:22 AM 23/4/08
You know what is wrong with PC gaming as a platform? No one is subsidizing you to go buy a brand new gaming computer. Companies will gladly accept significant losses for penetration of their consoles. On PC, you are responsible for everything from the CPU to the graphics card to the physics processor. Microsoft as "the" platform is a very misunderstood position. I'm sure they toot their own horn all day long in the PR department, but that's like saying the 360 Dashboard or the XMB is the platform. No, it's just an operating system.
It just makes more sense to have a console. If you want to whine about mouse and keyboard, keep whining and companies should start allowing for it in their console games. But a factured-standard platform is not the way to go. It certainly doesn't make any business sense, except for the hardware companies, who make a pretty penny while you pull their latest and greatest hardware into the mainstream.
Edge of Blade
DaPress
Posted 2:21 AM 23/4/08
I'm planning to open a game store within the next 12 months and this is precisely the reason why I'll not be carrying anything brand new for PC. Used only.
There's no money to be made in new games to begin with for retailers. The PC situation is just that much worse.
DaPress
InfernoT
Posted 2:19 AM 23/4/08
I don't mind upgrading my PC every once in a while to play a new game, if you purchase at the right time you can get a good shelf life out of the parts. My major complaint with pc gaming is one Ive had for at least ten years and is the primary reason I play consoles now. If I see a couple of screen shots or videos for a new console game and it peaks my interest,I can go out and rent, if I like it I'll go buy it. With the PC I have to either hope there will be a demo because the only other choice is heading to secret pirate island and thats a route I'd rather not sail.
InfernoT
CanaryWundaboy
Posted 2:17 AM 23/4/08
The problem is that Console gaming is just so much more convenient, you don't need to check the specs on the back of a box, you can play on your sofa on a huge TV, the consoels are cheaper, no need to upgrade, and with Xbox Live so popular there's no need to look to the PC for a decent online gaming experience.
Besides, I suck with a keyboard and mouse. Hand me a controller any day.
CanaryWundaboy
freight_train
Posted 2:16 AM 23/4/08
I completely agree, I got tired of trying to keep up with the hardware to try and run these games so i bought a xbox360 instead, which, besides the issues, has been a good decision.
freight_train
jarjarwang
Posted 2:16 AM 23/4/08
My closest games store (FYE) just got rid of all pc games. I'm fine with that. I buy all of my games on steam. I think this is a move in the right direction.
Video cards are a huge part of the problem. Good ones aren't sold in stores, most pc users don't even know what they are!
The PC games industry just needs to simplify and push the video card market to the public. "For $225 extra dollars your system can outclock the xbox360 and ps3." If Microsoft is willing to say that, they can find some success.
jarjarwang
kifbox
Posted 2:16 AM 23/4/08
The arrival of DX10 was the death knell for PC gaming. The bottom line is bang for the buck with consoles coupled with the increase in flat screens in the living room (kind of chicken and the egg in way...). With the arrival of DX10 there was a dearth of any new PC games that did NOT appear on consoles at the same time. Only people with money to blow and time to waste (trying to get the PC hardware and software to run properly) are playing on the PC...Most people are looking at the big screen in the living room and thinking for the price of a card they could get a whole system that will run the game they want (Mass Effect, Bioshock, etc) on that 50" plasma...gee and it works EVERY TIME (except for the RROD on 360's) and no updated drivers are going to break it (for the most part).
kifbox
cdammers
Posted 2:15 AM 23/4/08
Hey, Microsoft. Instead of spending millions of dollars propping up a doomed distribution platform which most committed customers have already abandoned, why don't you spend some of that money on getting Nvidia to sort out their Vista drivers so your wonderful new gaming platform doesn't crash all the time?
cdammers
Kyle81
Posted 2:15 AM 23/4/08
This coming from one of the companies that is ruining the pc gaming industry *sigh*
Kyle81
Solid_hedgehog
Posted 2:13 AM 23/4/08
I would also like to note, that buying PC games at retail is almost unheard of for me.
Solid_hedgehog
Rebel Without Applause
Posted 2:13 AM 23/4/08
Coming from someone who love video games but grew up only playing consoles, what ever happens to PC gaming doesn't effect me.
Rebel Without Applause
Eville1
Posted 2:11 AM 23/4/08
Dedicated gaming machines vs multi use pcs? I'll stick with a console. I used to own a million pc titles before It got to expensive to keep up.
Eville1
muscrat_01
Posted 2:11 AM 23/4/08
And then the Stats presented by the PCGA say otherwise...
muscrat_01
Mustakrakish
Posted 2:10 AM 23/4/08
The thing with PC gaming is you have to invest some effort in playing on the platform, in that you need to install new hardware once in a while, which obviously costs money. But the payoff is immense I only just got into PC gaming this year, I bought a new PC, and now I own... a lot of games now. I love playing CoD4 on full settings with no FPS drops. The reason people think that PC gaming is failing is because of the shelf space in-store (or the lack thereof). The digital distribution front is growing massively, didn't Steam grow something like 150% last year?
Mustakrakish
Mr.DuckSauce
Posted 2:09 AM 23/4/08
I blame windows vista and the so called dx10 in which it would easily worked for xp, also the whole games for windows live, that whole idea is a joke to begin with, if only m$ could only turn itself around with some good customer service in terms of marketing, products and reliability then something good would happen, while that being said, ok with the whole patches thing, console games nowadays have patches also, so pc and console are no different when it comes to patching where console are becoming more pc in terms of that area.
Mr.DuckSauce
Tei
Posted 2:09 AM 23/4/08
note: I must buy a spellchecker, today.
Tei
Tei
Posted 2:09 AM 23/4/08
I blame Microsoft:
- Microsoft popularized "TEH XBOX EXCLUSIVE", and by extension all "TEH CONSOLE EXLCUISVE" titles.
- Microsoft invented "XBOX LIVE".
- Microsoft populared the FPS and hardcore titles on the consoles.
Is Microsoft, a PC company, that is damaging the PC gaming ""stealing"" teh secret sauce of PC gaming, like a hard disk. And giving this god gifst to mere mortal console players and his 5 years lifetimed consoles.
Tei
Mr.Waffleton
Posted 2:08 AM 23/4/08
Bill Clinton needs to get a job at MS. He'd be perfect for their PR department.
"It all depends on how you define "low sales"".
Mr.Waffleton
Solid_hedgehog
Posted 2:07 AM 23/4/08
Steam is a future of PC gaming. Look how well it's doing. Of course that isn't included in this is it?
Solid_hedgehog
Kazzahdrane
Posted 3:36 AM 23/4/08
@ManjiKengo: The large chain I work for in the UK takes in PC games for trade. We give VERY little for them, and it's a very small part of our stock, but it's still business and it doesn't cost much to put more boxes on shelves. We sell most of them at £9.99 Buy One Get One Free too. I don't see where the harm is in including used PC in his stock.
Oh, and we make sure to keep on top of our PC Gaming knowledge and do our best not to take in games that have one-use keycodes etc (obv. no MMOGs).
Kazzahdrane
Zarian
Posted 3:36 AM 23/4/08
This is why developers need to start making more games for OS X.
No worries about different hardware configurations, or driver issues.
Zarian
Tepoz
Posted 3:36 AM 23/4/08
STEAM killed NPD data on PC gaming. When Half-Life 2 was released, PC gamers hated STEAM. As time went on Valve continued to fix their problems to a point where I don't think there are many PC gamers out there who have a problem with STEAM.
I expect STEAM to be the de facto source for PC game purchases.
Tepoz
MasterPhu
Posted 3:33 AM 23/4/08
I really think this boils down to a hardcore vs casual dispute and you guys are looking at this from the hardcore point of view. Don't forget that the best selling PC games for a long time was The Sims. Yes that casual snorefest we all dismiss still sells and the system requirements have been stable.
We all complain that we need to upgrade on the PC to play the latest and greatest games but that's mainly if you're only playing FPSs. There's plenty of genres that don't need a cutting edge PC. MMOs, RTSs, Adventure games, RPGs, and Turn-based Strategy games are easier on system requirements.
Plus we think that "OMG this game isn't running at 1600x1200, I need to upgradz LOL." A game running at 30 fps at 1280x720 is the same as your PS3 or X360 running at 720p.
On a side note does anyone even know if the X360 or the PS3 has FSAA?
MasterPhu
axiomatic
Posted 3:30 AM 23/4/08
Microsoft could do two things to really get gaming going on PC's again.
1. Build a MMS module that automatically switches on/off all the unneeded services Vista/XP use for other non-gaming related PC uses.
2. Built a streamlined version of Vista for Gaming. (Tall order, I know...)
axiomatic
tetracycloide
Posted 3:30 AM 23/4/08
why is it any suprise that gamers with $2k+ to spend on a PC are a relativly small portion of the larger 'gamer' market and that the vast majority of consumers find the cost effectiveness of a console appealing? the real question is why there aren't more companies raking in cash from gamers with dispoasable incomes so fast they can afford to buy a top end gaming PC. frankly i'm surpised there are no PC titles that cost two or three times more than the average console game but offer much higher production values in plot, character development, gameplay, and graphics. sure, it's catering to a small subsect of a much larger market and you won't have the same total sales numbers but catering to the wealthest demographic in the market is the best way to lower overall sales and still increase margins.
tetracycloide
jynxycat
Posted 3:29 AM 23/4/08
"With steep hardware specifications, difficult and inconsistent installs, convoluted patching processes and unstable operating systems"
The title of this article says it all.
jynxycat
homernoy
Posted 3:26 AM 23/4/08
@mabman:Your exaggerating the framerate difference, and to me DX10 is a huge step in the right direction. The video drivers were immature at Vistas launch but the gap between XP and Vista is closing with every new driver release.
Like I stated above, don't upgrade if you don't like Vista, but I run both, and Vista is not "terrible". Maybe people should have stuck with Win 98! People got slower framrates in games with XP and had higher hardware specs, etc.... Does this make XP terrible?
For the record, I think XP is fantastic and am typing on an XP machine right now, I just think there is a lot of missinformation regarding Vista. To each his own.
homernoy
Derigor
Posted 3:25 AM 23/4/08
I agree DX10 is what is kicking the crap out of the PC gaming market. I HAD to install vista on one of my gaming machines just for dx10 in crysis and hellgate. And for what? terrible dx10 support in hellgate? while my 2nd gaming rid (identical hardware) looks almost as good and runs smoother in dx9?
BLEH.
But seriously it's the games. Aside from TF2 I dont play anything anymore on my gaming PC, and I dont even play that anymore (damn you CoD4 on ps3/360!). The only games coming out soon I am looking forward to is Age of Conan really. Maybe Red Alert 3 assuming EA didnt completely F-up my beloved Red Alert. Starcraft 2 is a must buy but I wont play it nearly as much as any of the Great looking ps3 titles coming out this year. Most of the dev's are jumping on the console bandwagon for the dolla bills and us PC gamers are left with MMO's and Valve/Steam. Course I love me a good MMO and I would gladly suck off Valve for more goodies on Steam.
I'm considering buying a second ps3 for my wife because Hell, it's cheaper than buying 4 video cards everytime we want to upgrade our rigs... Actually another 55 inch DLP and a PS3 would be cheaper than rebuilding our Gaming PC's. Course I think she owuld kill me but that's another story.
She teases me constantly that I am a console gamer now because I hardly touch my PC rig these days. I will never by a full console gamer until they fully support my Razer mouse and keyboard in all fps games and RTS's but man, I tell you...
Second reason console gaming is winning me over is because all my lame friends with @#($ jobs have stupid cheap 360's (finally a few get ps3's) because of the money issue keeping up their rig. Cant even get a TF2 match going with all my buddies anymore because someone's mobo burns out and they are like, "meh replace it or buy a console and have more games to play".
Age of Conan better be good cause I feel bad having 4 video cards, 8 gigs of ram and an oc'd black edition amd proc and wasting it all on downloading japanese cartoons...pft and that's only if I feel like wasting some bandwidth while not playing CoD4 on ps3.
/rant off. go back to lunch now!
Derigor
daCuk
Posted 3:23 AM 23/4/08
A serious problem with PC gaming is the lack of different genres on it. If you do not like FPS, RTS, American RPGs or Simulation games, you are out of luck.
I like fighting games. Japanese RPG, puzzles, offline multiplayer games and party games, and a PC will be a waste of my money due to the virtual inexistence of those games on it.
Besides, constant driver tweaking and using a keyboard for gaming (you can say anything, but 4 keys [WASD] are not as intuitive as a cross joypad)
does not help the PC market gaming to work, and I can say this with no remorse, being a employee for a PC manufacturer company specialized on Gaming computers.
daCuk
h0mi
Posted 3:21 AM 23/4/08
1 thing that hurts PC gaming is that Laptops are so popular and come with integrated graphics that may be great compared to 2 gens ago but are poorly suited for today's games. Ditto with alot of cheaper desktops, but you can at least slap in a $300 video card and be able to play newer games. But then, that's the point... you have to buy new video cards every couple of years and/or entirely new systems because the CPUs/GPUs can't handle it.
h0mi
Firenfunk
Posted 3:20 AM 23/4/08
Microsoft is absolutely the problem. When I buy a new PC I will be going Linux, many Windows games can now run on Linux, and the rest I would rather miss out on than support MS in any way whatsoever.
Firenfunk
ManjiKengo
Posted 3:18 AM 23/4/08
@DaPress: No offense to you but used pc gaming sales is a stupid idea. You've got to consider all sorts of shit when you think about that idea man.
Cmon dude serial codes, online keys ring a bell?
Be smart.
@Kazzahdrane: Yeah, I wish him luck, he'll need it specially with that sort of inventory idea. Piracy is rampant and used pc game sales would be one stupid thing to try and go for.
ManjiKengo
crewwolfy
Posted 3:18 AM 23/4/08
-Multiple graphics card requirements and choices.
-Multiple processor requirements and options
-Multiple types of RAM
-Possible advantage to gamers with higher spec machines
-KB/M interface, and the required space for said interface
-Most computer workstations are not conducive to long hours of playing
-Connecting a PC to your new HDTV requires some tweaking of settings, as well as specific graphic cards
-Lengthy install processes
-OS issues
-plenty of other negatives
I'm not saying that PC gaming isn't worth it, as I'll be picking up StarCraft II on day 1. What I'm saying is that it makes perfect sense that the casual gamer would lean toward a tv-top solution over a PC rig; just as most people buy a Toyota over a kit car, it's easier and often cheaper, even if the performance specs aren't there.
crewwolfy
mabman
Posted 3:17 AM 23/4/08
@homernoy: vista is still terrible and its not the "launch" date anymore, if you haven't noticed vista is still about 10-20 fps behind XP even with its over-glorified dx10, and Vista is a more recently coded os - no reason for it
mabman
Knight
Posted 3:16 AM 23/4/08
Steam is the future of the PC platform imo. I know whenever I want to buy a game, first place I look is Steam. It used to have its problems (was probably the worst system ever. Crashes ho!) but most have been ironed out, and the new steam friends+community thing they have going works incredibly well.
Also, is anyone else still really amused when people do the whole "M$" thing? Didn't we get over that 5 years ago? Yea, you're really sticking it to the man with that dollar sign. Microsoft should be afraid of your rebellious spirit.
Knight
homernoy
Posted 3:14 AM 23/4/08
@zyberteq: "Steam could also make that easier, the program knows the system. so why not just show if your system is capable of running game X? haven't seen something like that, but it would be a brilliant addon. or show minimum required, and your specs added, like some games do"
If you haven't all ready you might like to check this site out
[www.systemrequirementslab.com]
homernoy
mabman
Posted 3:13 AM 23/4/08
pc gaming is not going anywhere, we've been bitching forever that its dying... its not going to die, as long as there is programming there is gunna be gaming.
"windows vista" = "windows me" of of this generation, i cant wait till they get rid of it, ill be waiting for their next OS or switching to Linux
mabman
Righty Grove
Posted 3:12 AM 23/4/08
@Eville1: Ex-cisely.
Used to be a huge PC gamer. Bought a 360. Then I bought a HDTV. Can't think of a single reason to spend the money to upgrade nearly every piece of my PC just to drop more cash on games. I sit on a comfy couch, cradle the controller in my hand and relax.
On a side note, if the games are really the cream of the crop and don't exist elsewhere, I will buy them and play them on PC. See Half-Life 2, and Episode 1.
But I bought the Orange Box for Episode 2. Take that how you will.
Righty Grove
Kazzahdrane
Posted 3:03 AM 23/4/08
@DaPress: Good luck with that, brother. I'm guessing you've got games retail experience so hopefully you know what you're getting yourself into. If I might make a suggestion? I've always thought games stores should make more of the fact that their staff are (hopefully) very knowledgeable about the products they sell.
I'll frequently get people coming into the store I work in and saying "just wondered if you had any idea if [XYZ] with the [console]?", as if they think it very unlikely that we would know. Now, sometimes we won't, but a lot of times myself or a collegue will fire back the answer they're looking for right away, and they'll be stunned. It's not just the hardcore gamers either, sometimes a pensioner will come in and be so surprised that I'm good at explaining things about consoles/games to them in a manner that they understood without making them feel patronised. Really nice to get compliments about my customer service (*especially* when they're not actually buying something, they never get over the idea that staff could be helpful without selling something), but sad that it's so rare in games retail.
So I'd suggest marketing your staff's knowledge: stick signs up in the window that say things like "Confused by games systems? Just need to ask about something? Need help choosing a present for a gamer? Just ask", or something similar. Have always thought that a large games store should have a Questions Desk that's staffed by someone at all times where people can go for info without queuing at the sales counter - guess managers would argue that staff member might often have nothing to do, but you'd organise it so there was some job they could do when they didn't have anyone at their desk (paperwork, or whatever).
Anyway, good luck. Let us know how you get on! Maybe write an article about opening a games store?
Kazzahdrane
Tiber
Posted 3:01 AM 23/4/08
@ShirtGuyDom: The index idea was pretty good, but I think hardware needs to be simpler. Here's an idea: get all the PC companies together for a ratings system. A part's performance and compatibility should be as clear as possible.
With graphics cards, none of this arbitrary numbers and letters. The successor to the 9500 won't be the 9700. No 9700 GT "economy model" which actually performs worse than the 9500. The successor to the 9700 won't be the X600, which has a lower number yet performs better.
With RAM no DDR DIMM crap. I don't want to have to look at a website to know what kind of RAM I need to buy.
Processors I think are a bit more straightforward, but I don't think Joe Idiot knows what a dual core is beyond that it has 2 "cores". Nor does he know what 4MB of cache does for him.
Sure the flexibility of a PC is a real asset, but it would be nice to know without doing any extra research how much of an improvement each component is.
Tiber
homernoy
Posted 2:59 AM 23/4/08
If people prefer gaming on a console, great. Just don't rationalize about cost and comfort and Vista.
The cost of a PC is relative. Almost everyone has one, and eventually you will upgrade your system. If you do this in increments you can get a lot of performance for a lot less money. If you are a gamer this should not seem like a huge investment for your return, especially if you do video encoding and other resource intense app.
Right now you can buy a video card that will play everything but Crysis at high res for $170.00(8800GT)
If your saying you can't play games on your couch with a PC, almost every single PC game that comes out has support for the 360 controller and rumble is enabled. Get a DVI to HDMI adapter and a SPDIF audio cable and hook it up to your big screen, then you lay on you couch and play Bioshock at 1080p natively.
The Vista complaints are annoying and getting old. Almost every issue that plagued the OS at launch has been erraticated. Also you can still play all your games on XP if you choose not to upgrade. It's like no one remembers the launch of XP and the need for digital drivers. When I upgraded to XP, NOT ONE of my peripherals would work. Had to buy new printer scanner etc..
The bottom line is eventually Win 98 was replaced. XP will too eventually and everyone should know that this is the same cycle we have seen over and over. I would expect MS to invest in Vista over XP, it only makes sense.
homernoy
Derigor
Posted 4:00 AM 23/4/08
@Likwit: graphics arnt marginally better, they are significantly better. Dunno what kind of TV you have but my resolution blows away those 720p xboxes, not to mention the massive FSAA capabilities that pc's have that the current consoles have. I saw jaggies on my ps3 and its only in 1080p! seriously wtf! jaggies in this day and age! I thought we killed those back when 8x fsaa came out, now we have like what? 16x or higher? (I cant remember off the top of my head). My 360 looks like it has maybe 4x or 2x depending on the game... seriously Jaggies should be killed.
While it may not be worth the money for the better graphics and controls to some. You have to atleast admit the graphics difference is huge now. Maybe it wasnt as big if you compare pc's at launch of the 360 (running something like gears) but todays pc's make the 360 and ps3 look like just an xbox and a ps2. Everything looks good at low resolution but if you were to run things at high res like you do on a pc you'd see a huge difference in graphics quality between consoles and the current pc hardware.
Derigor
Derigor
Posted 3:54 AM 23/4/08
@Knight: Yea I always stay one step behind the top of the line cause that's when they knock the price of video cards down. 8800GT's were a god send! I just hate it when you have to upgrade to a new socket and that sucker wont take your old ram.. arg. But oh well, atleast on the AMD front the am2 sockets can use the am2+ socket procs with a bios update. you can always save money on procs anyways, that's what good fans and overclocking.
Oh well, I'm off to buy more 8800gt's to SLI some up in anticipation for Conan. Cant get no framerate lag while storming forts you know!
Derigor
Hellcom
Posted 3:52 AM 23/4/08
Windows is a major factor. If it weren't for the fact that the most recent PC games don't work under WINE I would dump my dual-boot linux setup to straight linux right away to .
Hellcom
Likwit
Posted 3:50 AM 23/4/08
I think PC gaming has become an inferior experience. People want to have fun and spend as little money and time as possible. It's not worth the effort and the cash for marginally better graphics and a keyboard.
Likwit
ach77
Posted 3:50 AM 23/4/08
Question: although Burning Crusade came out in early 2007, did most of the pre-orders, etc get credited to 2006? Because there's your $60 million difference right there.
Also, just wait for Wrath of the Litch King, and suddenly PC games aren't slumping anymore.
I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing, but WoW is definitely the biggest thing going on in the PC gaming world right now.
ach77
Tiberian
Posted 3:48 AM 23/4/08
@Firenfunk: Microsoft really isn't the problem. The problem is hardware specs for PC games and the fact that most computers bought at retail come with an integrated GPU which is no use for gaming what so ever. A game like WoW sees fantastic numbers because it runs on a broad range of hardware, much like how SOURCE will run on a large range of hardware. That and its not largely affected by piracy since you need an active subscription.
@daCuk: You are totally right that theres a lack of genres on PC games. I hardly ever see fighting games, japanese rpgs for PC. Sure, lets all blame Microsoft when a large portion of developers, develop exclusively for consoles. Give me a break, people can't buy these games anywhere else. Last time i checked, Gears of War came out for PC, the Halo: CE and Halo 2 came out for PC. We ignore a lot of what Microsoft does for PC gaming, they're actually trying to help it.
Tiberian
Tepoz
Posted 3:47 AM 23/4/08
There is one thing that needs to be said about console game purchases versus PC game purchases: Consoles game purchases are always going to be stronger because consolers are funnelled into buying whatever is authorized to be released by the console manufacturer for that console. It's not like a consoler can say "I don't like game X released on my console so I'm just going to play a freeware/pay per item/monthly fee/ad supported game that's comparable.
PC gamers' choices are only limited by what his OS and hardware can run. For many that is almost an infinite amount of choices. Console gamers do not have that choice. Consolers only choices are whatever is allowed to be published for a given console.
Tepoz
Derigor
Posted 3:47 AM 23/4/08
@MasterPhu: They should but I think it's very low. Which is why on the 360 they like to do that blur/plasticy effect on freaking everything so you dont notice the jaggies. I think the original xbox has some FSAA too, hence why it always looked awesome compared to the ps2 (which didnt have hardware fsaa, it was all software).
and yea seriously, if a game isnt running atleast 75 fps at 1600x1200 (or higher) then pft!!! upgrade. I'm not taking the chance of a framerate drop when shit hits the fan! If it drops to a number above 60 when say, all 40 people in your raid decide to fire off AE nukes or something then I'm happy. All at max graphic settings of course.
I always lol when console games sport "omg we run at blazing fast 60 fps!" seriously? I think I was running unreal tourny at over 200 fps. just makes me think "noobs". Course these days I guess I'm one of those noobs when I pick up gt5p and see "oh cool 60fps at 1080p! awesome" oh well, I guess I'm just getting old and lazy in my gaming years.
But seriously Age of Conan give my PC a purpose again!
Derigor
Knight
Posted 3:47 AM 23/4/08
Every person who is spouting off these $2k comments for how much a new gaming PC costs needs to look at the market for the first time in 5 years. I just made a new PC for 900 bucks that runs games at max settings, AND I actually paid for Vista x64, so many of you can subtract 150 from that.
8800 GTs are so cheap and fast nowadays that you can build a monster on the cheap. Top of the line parts only get you screwed, high mid-end is where gamers should point themselves. Why pay 1200 dollars for a new Yorkdale (Intel 45nm process quad core) when you can pay 200 dollars for an E8400, or even 70 dollars for an E2160 if you can overclock and get the same performance in all applications short of video editing. Why pay $200 for a X38 motherboard then $300 for 2 gigs of DDR3 when you can get a P35 motherboard for $70 and 4 gigs of DDR2 for $80. You have to pick your expenditures carefully where they will do the most good.
And I know thats still more than you paid for your console, but hey. It'll look shiner when you play in that super high resolution at 8x/8x, and you can still do all the stuff that 400 dollar desktop you were going to buy can do.
Knight
TrekVogel
Posted 3:46 AM 23/4/08
Even a cheap ass PC should be able to play some decent games yet they don't. If you have integrated graphics you can say goodbye to games, even simple ones. A very simple game like Lumines requires a 1 GHz pc to run properly. I know that's not by today's standards but it's also a game that should be able to run on a PSone pretty well. It runs on a PSP at least which is not all that advanced. I own a first generation MacBook and even if I wanted to play some games on it there would be nothing that would run properly on it, being Windows or Mac OS. This is easily a machine that blows the Wii out of the water in every respect but it can't run any game properly.
At least consoles just work. Might not be state of the art later in their lifetimes but something that works beats the craptacular experience that is PC gaming. Steam is a good effort but nowhere near console experience. Diversity is also a problem that I wouldn't even dare touching here. What happened to the early 90's?
TrekVogel
ekkobi
Posted 3:45 AM 23/4/08
IMHO a major part of the problem with PC gaming these days lies within graphics taking precedence over gameplay elements and general content. Do you really need to make a game with hardware requirements that force a person to practically buy a new PC just to play your game? No.
Hell, look at WoW. You can easily say that part of the reason for its success lies in its relatively minimal hardware requirements to play for the actual content that it offers.
ekkobi
That Lamer
Posted 3:42 AM 23/4/08
@Zarian: Theres no money to be found in 10% (maybe lower?) of the computer market. Maybe if apple stopped trying to be "le chic" and actually grabbed some of the share games for macs would be viable.
That Lamer
flashtut
Posted 3:41 AM 23/4/08
@Sullyville:
#3 has already been solved with digital distribution. No discs, so no need for said disc to be in the disc tray. Problem solved.
flashtut
That Lamer
Posted 3:39 AM 23/4/08
@nastysquared: the problem I'm seeing is you simply got stuck at a bad moment. AGP was around for a long time, and then PCI express came around because it was better, and it has and will be around for a while. Sometimes there are hurdles we need to jump, but once we do things get a lot cheaper to maintain.
Unfortunately I'm also in your boat, I upgraded my PC while AGP was in it's death knells, so now I'm looking at a 600 dollar replacement.
That Lamer
TrekVogel
Posted 4:33 AM 23/4/08
@Tiberian:
How is MS not the problem but helping the PC when they decide to release Halo 2 years later than the Xbox version with ridiculous hardware and software requirements?
@ Everybody bitching about consoles havins jaggies, max 60fps, max 1080p, looking crap, whatever... Get a life! If you have nothing better than to worry about those things than you deserve the mediocre choice the PC offers you. Some people like to play something different than RTS/FPS and MMO games.
And for the people that say you can build a decent PC for <$1000: Yes, sure you can. For the next 2/3 years it will be fine but then you'll have to upgrade again. For 850 you can buy all 3 consoles and actually be able to play 99% of all games than come out in the next 5 years.
PC gaming has come to the point where it was years ago. Being beaten by every platform from all sides. It used to be Amiga, ST, Genesis, SNES, etc. For some time, PC actually had something over consoles. Graphics, sound, online play. Not anymore, graphics are better maybe but not enough that most people would care.
TrekVogel
Buddy_DoQ
Posted 4:32 AM 23/4/08
@TrekVogel: A MacBook? Don't tell me you really expected to play new games on it. It doesn't have a dedicated GPU, even the Wii has that much! I love my sweet little MacBook as much as the next guy, but I know better than to bring it to a LAN. If you want to play some games don't be cheap like me, go spend a little more on a Pro (which as a fairly decent ATI chip,) and now you're playing some TF2 on high!
This goes for everyone: you can run into any brick and mortor, pick out a cheap box, toss in a ~$200 GPU, and be gaming on medium~high no problems. Not as easy as a console, sure, but would you rather be missing out on some great games (and mods) that don't cost $60 new? Not I!
Not sure I get the Steam comparison TrekVogel, in my experiences it's been more satisfying than say, Xbox Live. Lots of software choices, no hassle, and less in-your-face ads. (Points? Monthly fee? I mean, seriously people!) Just install, buy a game, then download and play. Easy.
Buddy_DoQ
mabman
Posted 4:25 AM 23/4/08
@homernoy: I politely disagree. Gamespots "Window Vista SP1: Gaming Performance" dated March 26th displays a large difference between Vista and XP
[www.gamespot.com]
mabman
Firenfunk
Posted 4:22 AM 23/4/08
@ Tiberian: I agree with what you say about the hardware situation, but on the software side it's MS who have done more to sabotage the fortunes of PC gaming than any other factor. These and other technical and ethical considerations, which are far too numerous to detail here, are my reasons for switching to Linux.
Firenfunk
Derigor
Posted 4:22 AM 23/4/08
@homerj: Amen! I remember first getting Falcon 4.0 gold. GOD DAMN that game had a manual with it.
It's simple business really. It's cheaper to develope a game for the xbox360. Unified hardware specs makes it easier to put out a game that will work. It's so similar to the PC that you can make a crappy port to the PC to still try to capitilize on that market. Your 360 version of the game has a much better chance of making money in brick and mortar stores and lets face it, the dics are overpriced so you cover your dev costs easy (assuming the game is worth a shit). Then just make a shitty ps3 port that run's half as well as the 360 (because hey, it'd take more damn money to develope it for the ps3 instead of copying what you already did) and fuck em, it's more money in your pocket.
All about dollar bills. You think Microsoft or anyone else cares about what market is surviving or dying? Not really as long as it is there for them to toss games at for some extra cash. This is just how it works and probably will work. Lead on one platform, port to other 2 to make bonus money. More platforms your game is on, more money to be made for the minimum amount of work spent.
Some devs go the extra mile and actually develop separate versions of the games for the different platforms to ensure everyone gets the same experience no matter what they choose but sadly this isnt the norm. Let's face it they want our money and one way or another they figure they will get it.
Shit happens, I just want it to happen faster on my PC (in terms of gameplay speed/graphics and release dates!). Waiting for ME and Gears for the PC is ARG!!! Bastids actually got me to buy ME on the 360 for a dumbed down experience and now I get to buy it again.
Derigor
Lman
Posted 4:21 AM 23/4/08
Wow, again with the "PC gaming is dead" theme. It seems kotaku is to consoles what gizmodo is to apple ...
Maybe you guys should put a "PC Gaming Dead" Tag so i can easily filter these posts.
Lman
wicko
Posted 4:18 AM 23/4/08
@Rebel Without Applause: This is completely wrong. PC gaming defines what console gaming is. PC games push the limit of PC's, and set the bar for consoles in development. Without PC gaming, consoles wouldn't be nearly as powerful as they are today. The 360 IS a pc for crying out loud.
wicko
Marasai
Posted 4:17 AM 23/4/08
PC gaming's death isn't MS's fault. its PC game makers and PC gamers. They allowed the best genres to die. They decided that they could sustain an industry around counterstrike and Warcraft. They rejected any attempts whatsoever to make PC gaming more accessible to people who aren't already in it.
PC gaming is dying do to the short sightedness, stupidity and intellecutal cowardice of the gamers and developers. Nothing more, nothing less. They knew what was coming and steadfastly refused to do anything.
Marasai
ManjiKengo
Posted 4:16 AM 23/4/08
@Kazzahdrane: at least you understand the issues that you face with pc used games.
ManjiKengo
chiefpoopingpants
Posted 4:10 AM 23/4/08
Actually it is MS' fault for dong things like making DX10 a Vista only thing for no good reason other to push the OS. Well if you want to use DX10 you then have to use a technology tied to a rubbish OS that isn't exactly popular.
chiefpoopingpants
homerj
Posted 4:09 AM 23/4/08
Blah, here's the problem....and it's not expensive hardware, it's not Vista, and it's not complicated installs.
If you look maybe 10 years ago, there were great games you could only get on a PC. You could get Starcraft. There were games such as 688i Attack Sub, where not only could I pretent to be a sub captain, I had a 400+ page manual to describe all I needed to know.
PC gaming just offered MORE than what you got on a console. Yeah, I could have some decent two player action with Madden '95. Or I could go the the PC and fire up Front Page Sports Football and do a complete franchise, and create my own plays. If I wanted to race, I could load up some pretend racing game for the PSX, or I could install Papyrus's NASCAR Racing.
Then there was a shift in the PC gaming industry. Companies like Sierra who were putting out great adventure games that worked well on the PC weren't around, FPS Football tried to compete with Madden with "causal" football play and killed the series. You stopped getting all the bonuses such as huge manuals and maps with PC games. PC gaming turned intoa 2nd class citizen in gaming.
And people want to know why people stopped buying PC games? Well when there are no PC games left other than so-so ports of console games months later, who's going to bother?
The PC turned into a two trick pony of MMORPGS and FPS shooters. Not to say there aren't other PC games released, but those are the two that get any real coverage. So unless you're into either of those, there's nothing for you on the PC.
If companies really want PC gaming to come back, they need to go back to what they were doing 10-15 years ago. Releasing great games of every genre. Release that new Jane's F22 flight sim, with the 400 page manual that explains how to do various maneuvers. Release the new RPG that requires me to use the nifty map I got as a pack-in. Go back and make PC the immersive experience it used to be, and stop releasing the "pick up and play" ports of console games.
homerj
That Lamer
Posted 4:06 AM 23/4/08
@Knight: I agree with you completely, but you have to remember a lot of people are terrified at the prospect of assembling their own computers, and many don't really know what hardware goes together. So while it could only cost them 600-900 bucks for a top of the line rig, they're looking at the dell price, which is easily 2000-3000.
That Lamer
TwoSetBonus
Posted 4:01 AM 23/4/08
@homernoy: The cost of a PC is relative. Almost everyone has one, and eventually you will upgrade your system. If you do this in increments you can get a lot of performance for a lot less money. If you are a gamer this should not seem like a huge investment for your return, especially if you do video encoding and other resource intense app.
Right now you can buy a video card that will play everything but Crysis at high res for $170.00(8800GT)
If your saying you can't play games on your couch with a PC, almost every single PC game that comes out has support for the 360 controller and rumble is enabled. Get a DVI to HDMI adapter and a SPDIF audio cable and hook it up to your big screen, then you lay on you couch and play Bioshock at 1080p natively."
Now, while a decent argument, not everyone can afford to "buy in increments". People aren't looking to upgrade their computers for "encoding and other resource intense apps". People generally want an email, browsers, instant messaging machine. Gaming is such a tailored hassle on the PC. If you plop down the price for a console, you can immediately start playing. What about those users who have their computers in a separate room from their TVs? Imagine a bunch of college kids (decent market I'd say) who'd rather buy games for their XBox and play it in their dorm rather than install then have their machine compete with other resources. What about multiplayer in person? Regardless of OS, people don't have to ask "Can I run this?" They can ask, "When and who can I play with?" Not everyone knows about DVI to HDMI adapters, SPDIF audio cables, and the like. They can just buy a console and go.
TwoSetBonus
Imakeholesinu
Posted 5:06 AM 23/4/08
To echo what Homerj said...it was the originality and creativity of PC games in the mid to late 90's that made PC game sales overshadow the entire gaming market.
PC Gaming not only had a lock on the Adventure game genre but also the flight sim genre with series like Wing Commander and Privateer at the time.
The lack of decent follow-ups for the Space Sim and Adventure genres and the flooding of Quake clones is what caused the market to be in the state where it is now.
Once everyone flooded the market with FPS's, no other title could thrive on the platform (save the Online subscription based RPG's like Ultima Online and a handful of strategy titles like Starcraft).
Gamers who wanted something different turned to the consoles again for RPGs fighting games and other platformers that the PC couldn't easily port over. Then came the sports age and the beginning of EA's domination with EA Sports line of games.
The PC versions were featureless hacks compared to the functionality and level of control given to the console versions.
Not only that, publishers shifted towards a "produce and forget" mentality that rushed hyped games to the market for the PC sometimes not tested very well and then subsequent patching was needed before the game was playable (IE Battlefield 2). Publishers seemed to turn a deaf ear to the diehard user base and started catering to the casual gamer more and more causing the dumbing down of the user base and alienating the hardcore fan base completely.
Now they may have done this because technology behind computer based gaming is no where NEAR where it was 8 years ago. When I think back to the year 2000 I was running windows 95 still and had just got broadband access to my home. The problem is that the OS changed and developers tools couldn't keep up.
You've got Intel and nVidia releasing chips every 6 months almost to make money but the functionality these chips tout hasn't been implemented yet because developers can't code quick enough or well enough without releasing multiple patches for things to get the functionality even a fraction close to where it was advertised.
PC Gamers have felt like 2nd class citizens because big name developers treated us like everyone else. They saw no difference between the console gamer and the PC gamer. That is why we have so many horrible ports of console titles over to the PC.
Has there ever been a successful port of a console title to the PC and vice versa?
My only hope is for publishers to stop treating PC gamers like all gamers.
Imakeholesinu
mescalineeyes
Posted 5:05 AM 23/4/08
@Buddy_DoQ: the Macbook Pro actually has an nvidia 8600m gt
mescalineeyes
Aph
Posted 5:05 AM 23/4/08
In the late 90's and upto the PS2 I was always a PC gamer. The controls allowed for more, the violence seemed unlimited and the internets was the big thing in socializing (ICQ over Facebook)
PS1 and 2 became a compliment and suddenly I found myself weighing in between the two when FF7, and other big titles couldn't be found anywhere else.
I think the X-Box 360 was the first system that made me think... Wow... how will PC manage to keep up with this? But by the time this new gen of consoles hit my life was already heading in the 'no time for this' direction so I became a portable gamer.
So PSP now
Aph
Athest
Posted 4:58 AM 23/4/08
I enjoy how they didn't even mention Games for Windows Live. Microsoft may not be the biggest problem, but most the time they sure as hell aren't helping. If we really want to see a rise in PC gaming, one we could use a stable community system with all the bells and whistles(steam looks like it's getting ready to cover this base). Hardware costs really need to go down. Companies like dell make it harder for people to get into gaming, because games are requiring some steep specifications, and when you have to pay 3grand for a moderately decent PC, something is wrong. I do enjoy how nvidia is really starting to lower their card prices, it's a great step forward. Now if other hardware companies can do this and we can make a PC that can run some of the newest games at higher graphics for 1-1.5grand, then I can almost guarantee you they'll see a heavy spike in pc gaming.
Athest
okenny :)
Posted 4:58 AM 23/4/08
@homernoy: These were the same behaviors of software back in the 98 days as we transitioned to XP. Give it time people. The things that make XP amazing with games are probably going unnoticed. It's just sad that the OS gets the bad wrap because software is advertised as compatible and then released with bugs.
okenny :)
TrekVogel
Posted 4:57 AM 23/4/08
@Derigor:
Okay, I agree on the customization and microtransactions. Controls are a matter of taste and depends on game and genre. Point is that if you're that obsessed with games and have nothing better to worry about than say jaggies, than you're too shortsighted to see the good things you're missing. So yeah, then you deserve the mediocre choice the PC offers.
My point was that PCs don't offer a lot of variety like they used to. It's mainly FPS/MMO/RTS and that's fine but there's more out there. Maybe not with the perfect gaphics and stuff but there was a time when PCs offered platformers and fighting games to name just 2 genres. The variety is hurting the PC in my opinion. The 360 is unfortunately only a bit better.
TrekVogel
kosbee
Posted 4:57 AM 23/4/08
I think another reason PC gaming is wallowing in the pits (or so some would have us believe) is because knowledge is lacking. I think an above poster touched on this, and it's been a topic of discussion in one of my college classes. The general public has only a vague awareness of how PCs work/run.
Average Joe runs out and buys Crysis because his computer meets the "minimum" requirements - gets home and installs it and find it running slower than a *insert witty colloquialism*
When I'm at work trying to decipher someone's problem with their home computer, the information they give me usually has nothing to do with the problem at hand.
Gross misconceptions about computer hardware and software abound. And until the people are educated about how computers work - I mean really work - then I think (as a byproduct) the PC gaming industry will continue it's downward slide.
kosbee
leeallens
Posted 4:57 AM 23/4/08
I'm not so sure about this argument. Look at the pc back in the day.
You had to be a pc expert just to boot the pc with enough memory to run Doom. Remember the config.sys. Loading dos high. Extended memory managers etc etc. I mean jesus, gaming on the pc is half the reason I work at a helpdesk, it helped me learn pc troubleshooting.
My point is that back then people still played pc games even though it was frustrating and expensive.
I think the real edge consoles have now are the internet connections, HD graphics and the couch factor.
leeallens
fuchikoma
Posted 4:54 AM 23/4/08
Problems:
"owning the platform isn't a good thing on this platform.
Paying royalties to be a "games for Windows" game with restrictions traditionally not in PC games is all bad. A "baseline experience" is a great idea. Look at how DirectX lit a rocket under PC gaming! Basing it on Vista? Not too smart considering how users have done everything legally available to them to get rid of Vista. You can also run DX10 under WinXP basically - I don't know how, but I have friends who do it and say it's pretty trivial.
Finally, it seems to me like they think they can draw people to PC gaming by restricting the games as they might be on a console, and even charging to download content that was once abundant and free in user communities.
The tighter you lock PC gaming down, the fewer gamers will get INTO it, not OUT OF it!
*sigh* It's not some imaginary percieved barrier, nice way to put the reader on the defensive and make them doubt though. I grew up gaming on PCs. I still game on PCs a bit. I work on, set up, and support PCs all day at work. I've gamed mostly on consoles since the late 90s. Probably longer actually, but the main reasons now are:
- My PC is very important. I use it for any kind of data in and any kind out. I do not need it constantly gummed up with random copy protection crapware that hides where it can't be seen or uninstalled, interfering with my system for my own good.
- Also, because my PC is not only for gaming, a 6GB install is pretty bad. A 10+GB install is pretty ridiculous. 15GB+ had better be the best game ever because honestly, I'd rather just have 4-5 seasons of a TV show in high quality in the same space.
- The hardware upgrade cycle IS a big issue. I don't care if you can run a game on a system made three years earlier - the lighting will be crap, the textures blurry and downsampled, often failing to line up when below max quality, the framerate often random (especially if you run ANYTHING else in the background.) I want it as the developers intended, and on a console, I see exactly what they saw and it plays the same. To keep it at THAT point on a PC costs hundreds of dollars to... I'd say around a thousand per year. A few thousand if you have to get another PC. On a console, the developers just spend the next 5-10 years learning to make better use of the hardware. If a new effect is needed, there's often a cheat that makes it look the same on hardware that doesn't support it the "right" way.
- Last but... well, probably least actually. I don't care about RTS games at all, and I'm pretty sick of FPS as well. I know there are sometimes ports of console franchises, and SOME big name games that don't fit the mold, but mostly it's just indie games that are original, which I still enjoy because most aren't plagued by the same problems I listed above!
PC gaming is far from dead, but I think it may be due for a "changing of the guard" as the old, uber-mega-rich companies lose touch with gamers more and more prevalently.
fuchikoma
homernoy
Posted 4:50 AM 23/4/08
@Buddy_DoQ:Not to nitpick, but 3DMark is not a game. Also here are the results of single GPU's from the link you gave:
Crysis -3fps vs XP
Bioshock same
COD same
Oblivion +1fps vs XP
Team Fortress -7 vs XP
Team Fortress runs at insane framrates so this is less of a problem than it may seem, but it is a glaring example of how there can be a difference in favor of XP.
SLI driver issue. There are known issues with SLI drivers in Vista being immature. This has nothing to do with the OS.
homernoy
okenny :)
Posted 4:49 AM 23/4/08
Game companies are trying to push PC graphics too hard to stay relevant with the Consoles. This is causing many problems. PC's today have standardized APIs for just about everything... Sound, Input, graphics format. 3D acceleration is still catching up. I'm not saying make flash games but we have to start making games that aim for lower bars as technology maturates.
okenny :)
Derigor
Posted 4:45 AM 23/4/08
@TrekVogel: The controls are better too. Oh and so is the online play, thats alot better. Customizability is alot better to with mods and what not, also no microtransactions for silly skins (I'm looking at you Ace Combat) or for maps (paying for maps, seriously?).
"@ Everybody bitching about consoles havins jaggies, max 60fps, max 1080p, looking crap, whatever... Get a life! If you have nothing better than to worry about those things than you deserve the mediocre choice the PC offers you. Some people like to play something different than RTS/FPS and MMO games."
I'm confused, are the something different than FPS games supposed to be on consoles or the PC? I dont see what this has to do with anything since these days all genres are on all platforms. I just fail to see the logic that because I stated consoles have jaggies that I am entitled to the mediocre selection the pc offers. I'm pretty sure the selection is just about the same anyways. I would call the current lineups on the console mediocre as well, but that's just my opinion.
Derigor
TrekVogel
Posted 4:42 AM 23/4/08
@Derigor:
Vista is not as bad as they make it out to be from a lot of perspectives. The problem is that we expect progress and not something that performs worse. Remember that XP already performed worse than 2k and we were none too happy with that. XP offerd little over 2k and Vista offers little over XP. So in almost a decade we haven't gained much except loss of performance.
TrekVogel
TrekVogel
Posted 4:39 AM 23/4/08
@Buddy_DoQ:
No, I didn't expect it to play games. I didn't buy it for that. My point is that it should be able to play at least something other than a simple puzzle game decently. PC specs are redicilous, that's the point. Lumines doesn't need DX9, 1GHz and 512MB. Just like Halo 2 doesn't need Vista and DX10.
I totally agree that Steam is better than Xbox Live. In fact, I really like Steam. It's far from perfect though. It offers some great games for good prices but can also be way too expensive. The main problem is that it suffers from the usual PC lack of variety. It's getting better and better but it's not on console level yet. Steam is probably the best thing to happen to PC gaming in ages. It brings console simplicity to PCs and that was much needed. They have my support and they fully deserve it.
TrekVogel
Derigor
Posted 4:38 AM 23/4/08
@mabman: I have 2 identical machines, one on vista 64 ultimate and one on xp pro 64... they score almost exactly the same scores on futuremark... the xp machine is a hair faster but as that's not my machine it probably doesnt have nearly as much clutter on it bogging it down.
These days left over "lol vista" is still around but seriously, it's not that terrible other than the fact we are forced to use it for dx10 (which is total bullshit). The only reason I installed it on my machine was because I wanted to see some dx10 with crysis. Honestly though, the performance in games is almost the same as xp, I have had no driver issues (mainly because I didnt install it until there was driver support for everything), and no blue screens or anything. It works just as well as xp oes for what I do, it's just crappy they to really get the most of PC gaming (dx10 in the future once it's the omfg shiznit) we have to run vista. Although I dont see that as a huge problem because well there are numerous ways to aquire it for cheaps or on the low, most of which are legal. Most universities have MS programs here you can buy a MS disc for like 5 bucks. I think at UH it was 7 dollars per MS cd, didnt matter if it was XP, Office or whatever. Since most people will never use Vista out of spite, just go up to a University and ask some student who will never use his copy to buy one for you. Done deal!
Doesnt make what MS is doing right with dx10, but atleast It's a semi legit way of getting a copy to atleast check out DX10 once it really takes off.
Derigor
That Lamer
Posted 5:32 AM 23/4/08
@TrekVogel: And for the people that say you can build a decent PC for under $1000: Yes, sure you can. For the next 2/3 years it will be fine but then you'll have to upgrade again. For 850 you can buy all 3 consoles and actually be able to play 99% of all games than come out in the next 5 years.
The only reason you can't play 99% of all games is because of the developers, not the system itself. For 600 bucks I could build a rig to play all of those games, and then spend 200 bucks 2-3 years later and still be current - the cost of the consoles. In return (if many developers didn't shun PCs) I'd not only have a ton of games to play, but I'd also have mods, free bonus content, a rig strong enough to do professional tasks if I so choose (3d, 2d, video and sound artistry are as much hobbies these days as they are professions) a powerful media center, and more mundanely, a fast browsing and email experience.
That Lamer
RPGr
Posted 5:31 AM 23/4/08
As many people above have stated, PCs are to expensive for gaming anymore. It used to be a good PC can last you 4+ years but companies continue to push the envelope now. Worst that that is the PC is relegated to FPSes and RTSes. I do buy a few games on PC every now and then but like every platform, it's all about the games.
The philosophy of PC game design seems to be, "push that technological envelope" while consoles have actual art direction or new game play styles and make the most of what they have.
Another problem is that consoles are much more expensive than they used to be which also eats into my PC budget.
RPGr
Derigor
Posted 5:27 AM 23/4/08
@TrekVogel: On he control front you just gotta remember that the PC supports a more variety of controls from mouse and keyboard, 360 controllers, ps2 controllers (with usb adapter) hell even wii motes now. Countless flight, sticks steering wheels and other silly gimicks.
Alot of the other genres