I never get those installs, I just pop in the game and play, I guess you have a defecti.....oh yeah I have a 360, NEVERMIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

freespeech

@pb00: as far as I know the 20db ps3 was discontinued because it didn't really sell if any at all lol and for those that do have one, well they're one bid away from buying a cheap sata hd on ebay and plugging it in to thier ps3, which sony has very easily labled on the back of the system. Now the retards that bought hd-less 360's, well you're sort of shit out of luck and will be forced to buy the proprietary hd that micrsoft sells at an outrageous price. I thought everyone was at least as smart as I was in buying the premium 360. . . . .

escopr

Since I own neither a PS3 nor xbox360, my comments are based solely on my love of console gaming and I can only see large mandatory installs as a bad thing. The original playstation was hailed as bringing gaming toward the mainstream - think 18-24 year olds coming in from the pub and having a game in the living room rather than B.O. addled nerds sitting in their bedrooms. This separated console gaming forever from PC gaming and they continued on divergent routes targeting different audiences.

While it's all fine and well for people that inhabit gaming websites to say they don't mind the installs or even suggest you can shove in a bigger, warranty voiding HDD I think we sometimes forget that the average buyer in the street who buys console games - rather than PC gamers - is NOT an informed consumer (just look at which games fill the software sales charts!) and will not appreciate the implications of game installs until they come to play their sixth game and find out their HDD is full - it is completely changing the console gaming pop-in-and-play paradigm which is part of console gaming's magic and I am loathe to lose it.

TheFlyingGerbil

@Otacon91: Anyone who says the difference in loadtimes is negligible, is either a fool or a liar. Obviously if the install is mandatory, there's no way to know how much slower it is without it. (And comparing it to the same game on another platform is not a fair measure either since there could be innumerable differences between the two pieces of software.)

I would have to imagine that any game with a required install has it for a reason, and probably a good one.

Look at it this way: You have finite HDD space on your PS3. Sony knows this, the devs know this. If you fill it up, you're less likely to play more games that require an install, and you're far less likely to buy games from the PSN Store. So they probably make damn sure that any time they require an HDD install, it's well worth it.

....of course, this whole scenario operates on the foolish assumption that these people know what the fuck they're doing... So take it with a grain of salt.

Bakachan

I don't see what's the big deal with this. When I'm downloading something on my PS3, I turn the TV off and find something else to while while it's downloading. Complain, complain, that's what people do these days.

electricmine

Think of it from an immersion standpoint.

What would cause the least amount of interruption to your experience? Disc swapping (if we consider that games are only getting larger) and long load times, or an upfront, one time install?

And, with the way HD prices drop year to year, a 250GB drive, when this becomes a space concern, will be a minimal investment.

mitsoxfan

It sucks between through the course of the so-called 10-year lifespan, you won't be able to just pick up any game on your shelf and start playing, since memory will always be a concern. Sucks esp for the 20gb buyers ...

PC is sort of like that, but the installs are wayyyy faster and older games aren't very big.

GhaleonUnlimited

I have a 250gig in my ps3. They should let me install the whole game to the HD (full install like pc games) so that it runs faster. Mandatory installs are fine (been doing it on the pc since hard drives were invented), but I'd like optional full installs for us that have upgraded our hard drives. I mean 60 bucks for a 250gig it's not like we are talking about spending big monies here.

Derigor

I believe the original xbox (and maybe 360) used to set aside a certain amount of the HDD for caching. It makes a lot more sense doing it that way, than installing.

I can almost understand a small install (500mb - 1gb), but 5gb????

Imagine you and a mate get home on april 29th with GTA4. He's on 360, your on PS3, and the PS3 version requires a 20 minute, 5gb install. How annoyed would you be that he's been playing for 20 minutes, sending you test messages saying how fantastic it is, and your watching an installing screen? (please note, this is an example, im not saying GTA4 has an install)

Mr_Ed

I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it's actually better than install-times on PCs. [Tony Hawk 4 anyone?]
I totally felt pleased that Warhawk (that I bought on a BD disc) required an install.
On the other hand, DMC/LP shouldn't require it.
Code-wise, by default it's not hard at all to use the HDD dynamically to cache the next level while you're beating the current level's boss.

somarix

im so glad to see this article here, vindicating me.

In previous discussions about these installs, ive pointed out that bluray drives read slower than dvd drives and devs tend to duplicate data to speed things up.

Ive been accused of being a microsoft fanboy,making things up and being stupid, ahh to know im right make it all the more sweeter.

cubed2D

I can't help but think of my Sony fanboy coworker who argues that it's no big deal that Sony launched Blu-ray with an unfinished spec because, and I quote: "The early adopters always get screwed. It's supposed to work that way."

As a PS3 "early-adopter," I wonder how he feels now?

BtownDesignGuy

I don't care about the time it takes, I care about the space it wastes. If all the games start doing this our HDDs will be filled up in no time.

mikecoscia

I am mad...but as Kotaku, shouldn't you ask that to sony. We demand you do that and let us know. You are our voice. Ask them.

nxp3

I genuinely don't understand why people are getting so upset over this. The reason that even after a HDD install the blu-ray disc is still being read from is that the PS3 can load from two sources simultaneously. It's the same idea as installing two hard-disks in RAID on a PC: you get two read heads to gather data so you can decrease load time.
Sure, the GT prologue one took a while, but the load times seem like just under 10 seconds per track.
Why would you deny yourself a game because it has an install? Does that mean people are missing out on Heavenly Sword, Ratchet and Clank, GT-Prologue, Uncharted....
I hope you feel good about it when we're all playing MGS4 on launch day and you've boycotted it...

ratticon

Just imagine a world where every game has mandatory installs. At 5 gigs a pop, you're out of room pretty quick on those 40 gig models. Then you have to uninstall games in order to play new ones or the ones you already uninstalled.

And that's why I'm against it.

Devil May Cry 4 360vsPS3 proved that an installation was futile. And if the loading times would have been much worse on PS3 then they need to start focusing on making a faster drive for it.

interstate78

Optional installations im fine with. Mandatory ones (and i mean big mandatory ones. Dont mind a couple of hundred megabytes, but once it gets into the couple of gigabytes...) well lets just say Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is the last one like that I will ever get.

Honestly Sony need to let companies put games on dvds if they don't need the extra space of blu-ray - they did that with the PS2 (CD or DVD) why not the PS3? Oh right, they wanted to use the PS3 to force blu-ray down everyones throats....

IanC

But a 5gb install for a game like hot shots is ridiculous. Say i buy devil may cry 4, gran turismo 5 and hot shots, with a 40gb version thats nearly half of my drive gone immediately on 3 games. Hence why i just bought a 160gb hard drive to replace it with :P

ali_g_84uk

except for the PS3 version of Lost via Domus. 4GB install for a 4 hour long journey through the fudge tunnel.

slackjawed

I really cant believe this is even an issue. Can some people really not wait 10 or 20 minutes to play their new game?
What did you do during the mandatory 20 minute drive home from the store you bought it at? or the mandatory 2 minute opening of the shrinkwrapped package? Why dont we complain about these topics I say.

slackjawed

This is a combination of a slow disc drive, lazy developers and cheap publishers, and gamers who insist on acting like little bitches. I mean seriously, how on earth can mandatory installs become a story when you can barely list more than a handful of games that require them? I mean I understand complaining if you bought a 20 or 40 gb PS3. You'd rather save that hard drive space for demos and stuff you actually WANT to install, which is understandable. But those guys are an abject minority of the system installed base. If you have a 60 gb or an 80 gb system and you are complaining about a hard drive install, you seriously need to shut the fuck up. Either do that or buy less Capcom games, until they shape up.

Gagamus

Is this lazy? yes. any more lazy than just adding higher res textures and crisper rendering to the graphics engine for the PS3? Yes, a little, it requires a bit less work.

Do I mind? I haven't come across a game that does this which I bought for the PS3 and not the 360.

My stance on this is that, in cases where a Hard Drive would be used for more content than possible with a disc, installation is fine. If Mass Effect were a PS3 exclusive and not a 360 exclusive, would it have used the Hard Drive to easily double, nay, triple it's size? Yeah, probably. Lots of stuff in Mass Effect was dumbed downed due to Microsoft's strict "As long as we sell a console missing a hard drive, we can't let anyone make things require a hard drive" policy, and it shows that a good effort was made on BioWare's part.

My point is, if a game could ultimately be a 200+ hour experience filled with replayability, ginormous levels, and some of the greatest AI and Graphics available, then I have no problem with an isntallation. If it's just being dumped onto a Blu-Ray disc and set to install because of loading issues, then that doesn't seem right to me. The contrast and crispness of the PS3 are always slightly different from the 360, but Contrast doesn't really matter so much as long as it looks decent, and is it worth it for the extra crispness? Oh yeah, it's not.

Again, I'll say it, the PS3 can't get anywhere without Exclusives, because only they can use it to it's fullest extent. Nobody is going to triple the game's length and basically make 3 games and update all the graphics and redo all the code just to make a game maximize itself on all consoles.

Still, olds school consoles are about popping it in and playing, something computer sucks at, although Microsoft is trying to emulate via it's "install while you start playing" service that started with the Halo 2 Vista version. If all console games required installs, especially ones caused by developer laziness and/or time constraints, it'd be pointless.

Codexx

I guess i never used my original Xbox enough to notice or remember mandatory installs. I know there was a disc cache but that was kinda done on the fly..

as for the PS3, i dont mind it. But i got a 60 giger with nothing on it but my game stuff. so its still go a lot of space to go. 20 gig users arnt so lucky. You can easily swap out the HD and make it a moot point but then your adding money and effort ontop of the console price.

I guess the thing about making the install optional is that when you get down to it youd have to kinda be stupid not to install the optional install. The problem is with mandatory ones if you dont got the disc space left anymore.. the age old problem. A feature that mandatory is a burden, but optional dosnt make sense.

Im not sure there is a happy area really. It dosnt bother me so much however because i pretty much play a game once and then not touch it for half a year. So its no problem to delete and move on.

Murrytmds

@Captain Impulse:
Save data is stored seperately.
If you deinstall the game you just delete the data that serves as a streaming buffer.
When you reinstall the game you can start where you left!
@insomniac:
Yeah, true.

Garo

installs for consoles are unacceptable, hopefully ps3 will update it's blueray speed and it'll stop.. to bad for the early adapters, on the other hand it adds to the what one analyst said about consoles disappearing within a decade, till then i guess we'll just have to hear ppl complain

insomniac

Shorter load times win. I do have a big hardrive for something. And it can always grow.

Oh and Kotaku, you should have made this into a poll, hell you should have made a lot of posts into polls.

artofwar420

@reptile168: Someone's asking for a flame war here.

Youlikeyams

Console gaming is merging its pulse with PC gaming with installation times and patches. Honestly, that, and the form at which one controls the game are the only real differences between a console and the PC. By having installation and patches, the console is becoming more PC-like.

Lyner

@Janos2615: Brilliant. There goes your save data, plus you have to reinstall it again if you want to play it again. Yeah, that's convenient.

Captain Impulse

It is needed because the first generation BD drives don't have enough speed to stream the data as fast as needed and therefore some data has to be on HD.
That's the price you pay for NEXT GEN...
Or you can go with the X360 that produces massive graphics but also massive heat and increases the possibilty to crap out!
It's a ballance act and none of both sollutions is a good one :/

Garo

@Janos2615: That was actually just installing little cache files, not 5 GB of data.

And yes, hard drive space is finite. If all games or most games require large installations, it's going to be a real problem.

eastx

I smell fanboys

Gambare

@Janos2615:

Names please! I don't remember installing a thing.

Netnavi

To the people that are crying like children about the mandatory installs, the space it takes up on the HDD and the time it takes....

It is called "delete" and go outside.

You never saw people giving Microsoft crap about mandatory installs with the original xbox now did you?

Janos2615

long load times in-game suck.

putting up with a lengthy pre-install ONCE to do away with long in-game load times is awesome.

seriously, whats the problem here?

evermourn

So I look at the game data utility on the PS3 and it shows how much space it takes up. Heavenly sword takes about 1Gig and the rest about 6 to 700MB. Resistance is only 120 MB and Motorstorm is (oh crap!!) 22MB!!!

Why do we need installs? Well when you see the largest of all of them (heavenly sword) you see that it has this whole wallpaper and music and video playing in the background! Seriously!!!???? Do we really need all this extra crap if it just an install that we will never care about? Even on the save utility: ALL music and video!!!

Do we really need this extra if it takes up space!? It looks nice, but I don't need all that clogging it up like that! I rather just have a picture of the game. That's at least enough for me if it will cut down on extra space.

I think if other companies can give hardly any install space for games then the rest should follow up and learn. Isn't that what GDC is all about. Get those heads together guys.

Netnavi

I for one don't care about long load times. We dealt with that for years all through to the xbox 1 and I can still put up with it now. I rather not have the HD take up space just for an install. The only thing the game should use up is space for save game files. Thats it.

One thing. If the game is an DVD on a blu ray then why can't they run at DVD speeds. You have a top of the line DVD player that runs at least 8X and a BD player that runs at 4X(?) So you can be able to play the DVD content from BDs because it is just DVD impressions on the disc.

Or am I totally wrong?

Netnavi

Its funny to see that most of the defenders of the mandatory install are people with Playstation themed avatars. The sort of people you could probably go 'PS3 discs will now be made of cheese' and they would go 'oh yeah, that makes sense, <3 you sony'.

I'm torn on mandatory installs. On the one hand, I think its perfectly acceptable for a dev at this point to have a 1gb install if they absolutely *must*. 1gb is no sweat off anyones back, 20gb 360 owners or 20gb PS3 owners. 10 games at 10gb, Im sure you can find a game to beat before you get your 11th game.

On the other hand, like everyone has said, this is bad. Bad bad bad. If I wanted my PC in my living room, I would do it. But I dont, I want a games console that I can easily put my games into whenever I feel like it and *never* have to worry about installing anything, like with my PC. Its why I dont PC game much anymore, I hate space managing for new games.

Komrade_Kayce

Yeah, the install is an unacceptable mechanic, as many have it's about disc space. No PS3 hard drive is unlimited and HSG installs a MASSIVE 4GB of info, that is absolutely unreasonable. After that install I started checking other installs on my PS3 and games that I didn't know install things are taking up 2 to 3 GB of info, with a whopping 20GB used total after HSG was installed that does not includeany other saves or any other downloaded content, that is way, way too much! If I had a 20GB I would be screwed already and pretty bad off with a 40GB. I own 8 PS3 games and at this rate I could fill up an 80GB with just installs which is the current maximum without voiding your warranty. I hope they get on top of this and stop developers from doing it or at least get it down to a 250MB max.

mscene256

It's not the actual installs that bother me. It's the fact that developers do not want to put in the time &effort to understand the PS3's architect. You would think that after what Infinity Ward did with the PlayStation version of Call of Duty 4, everybody else would catch on. And the fact that they would just dump the DVD onto the Blu-ray undermines the actual usage the high definition format for games. It's time to wake up developers.

Tha-Militant

Some people seem to be missing the point, here: it's not about the time you have to wait.

It's about the fact that hard drive space is a finite resource, and all these mandatory installs are eating it up in place of stuff you'd rather be using the space for.

I think Sony could go a long way to resolving this issue if they built a spec for Blu-Ray storage, in terms of how the data should be set out for best performance.

splines

I do mind, even though i don't own a PS3 and will probably never own one, the fact that you have to install 5GB of contents to your HDD means you have 5GB less of space for your stuffs.

Impressive that a 40$ demo requires 12 minutes installation..

reptile168

Installs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Waiting several weeks to get your XBox back because it took a shit on you. Yeah, I just sent back my first XBox and Im not happy. The people that bemoan about installs and lol @ the PS3 are the same dumbasses that put up with having to ship their console back and wait to get a new one and multiple times over in some cases.

Toprem

Installs are for computers, fuck that shit. I didn't buy a console so I could wait 30 fucking minutes to play.

Install = no buy for me.

Tylahedras

I can recall bringing stacks of SNES games to friends' houses and playing NHL, MK2, SFII, TMNT, Contra, Madden, etc. all in one night. If every title required a half hour install we would have had to dedicate an entire day just to installing games. How fun!

Irish.Exile

It's the developer, not the hardware. again, please look at nauty dog and their products on the ps3. no install next to zero loading. Capcom is doing it all wrong, which is hurting the feature in the public eye. when more of the developers who care about truly utilizing hardware, you will see the gain from the feature, if/when it is needed.

Right now, it really hasn't been done right, thus the feature gets a bad public image, but is seen as a hardware issue, but pssst... it's really how you code.

iNime

I don't mind at ALL.

Mandatory Install: Faster game loading, and easier game launching for PS Home

it's obvious why they're doing it.

silverfox840

It makes newegging a giganto-sized hard drive all the more important.

Wolfers

I do not mind at all, as long as it makes the game load faster.

mnml10387

12 minute installs? Sheesh, harden up. There's like, ethiopian kids out there starving and stuff. Surely we can handle waiting a few minutes the first time we play a new PS3 game.

DuctTape

I doubt anyone who got the 20gb was looking forward to dishing out more cash for a bigger drive.

LunarMaster

@dexterr: We're not talking about the 360 here. Please fanboy somewhere else.

Captain Impulse

@Elderwulf:

I can't tell if you're trolling or don't understand what you're talking about or both. The caching to HDD is purely a choice for the developer. If you want to improve performance buy a better SATA HDD that also has more storage.

@Strangelove:

If you have a 20GB it isn't that expensive to gain 10x the storage with a quick HDD upgrade. You can then buy an external case for the old drive to hold your movies and other media to use with your laptop / PC / PS3. Sure 20GB isn't much, but that's a lot of divx series shows or AAC songs.

Mongoosekun

@CakeMongler ★★:
If you're talking about the game data, you can go into "game data" and delete all the install files.

aevanko

@IntelSilver:
Well, they aren't giving us an option are they? The problem is that you have no choice, so it's not "making it load faster" - that would be true if we were able to play it in a way where it doesn't load as fast and the comment is more or less a comparative comment. No, mandatory installs do not make load times "faster", they "allow you to play your game" which is CRAP.

I feel bad for all 20GB HDD users. I have a 60GB and I will NEVER spend moeny to upgrade the HDD. I buy a console so I can put a disc in and PLAY, not install the damn thing like a PC.

aevanko

I generally use my PS3 for watching Blu-Ray movies.. Do any of the installs actually speed up load times significantly?? From what I read the DMC4 install only helped loading time by a second or two.. big deal.

PlasmaMachine

I buy the majority of my games on PC, so an install wait wouldn't bother me. What would bother me, however, would be the PS3's relatively small HD getting filled up with game installs, movies, PSN games, music, etc.

Strangelove

I'm ready to either hack my PS3 with a faster speed blu-ray, or buy an XBOX 360. Those load times are horrible! I've bought new computers for less.

Elderwulf

well xbox has a noisy disc drive in it. can you make it any louder.

dexterr

What a whinge! It's honestly better than having a lot of things happen to you. I'd rather wait forty minutes for an install than farm in minefields.

Sheesh. The West. Fat, rich and bored.

pylon_trooper

I'll take mandatory installs over longer load times, but I think anyone would agree that little to no load times would be ideal. If only everyone knew the PS3 as well as Naughty Dog and Insomniac!

Razlo

@celery: I don't know about half a second, buddy.

@peacefuloutrage: I totally agree. But I think we are making a bigger fuss about it than what it's worth.

IntelSilver

Hey maybe I wouldn't mind mandatory installs if it then meant not only low load times but I could play without getting up to swap discs. Sure, there's a piracy angle there but that's not my problem. They could make you sign in like steam. The future is bleak.

Milkham

don't care, 15 minutes now to save me 15 minutes while im on a killfrenzy is better

Zaos

There are more cons than pros in this situation, but the most frustrating aspect is that it's not optional.

Captain Impulse

GT-5, DMC4, Heavenly Sword, obilivion, game saves and a few demos. my harddrive is now FULL

this is no way aceptable that i have to now purchase a new harddrive before Metal Gear arrives or any other game that needs an install.

also after i spend another 100 plus dollars on the new harddrive and i am going to have to wait again for all the games to reinstall and lets not forget about the time its going to take to copy all my saved games over.

Hero1

@CakeMongler ★★: oh.
my.
god!

You have two stars. I will worship at your feet.

Polywhirl

Of course, I've looked for it before and found nothing, but after posting I looked one more time and found it all in game data... d'oh! Maybe I was used to the PSP putting everything in save data. Maybe just a case of the stupids.

Never mind, I'm dumb! Installs don't bug me anymore!

CakeMongler ★★

Really... my beef isn't with the fact that it DOES install. I want to SEE THE FILES IT LOADS. As it is, I can't uninstall any of these mandatory installs because they aren't visible anywhere. They're taking up space, but I can't do anything about it but continue to let the game use space that I didn't tell it it could.

Maybe if other things need to install, it'll overwrite old ones? (What if I want to download or copy files over?!) I really want to be able to UNinstall though, and nothing I have that installs has let me do this yet. WTF?

CakeMongler ★★

Well I for one don't mind the install. If I were given the choice to install a portion of the game because it made an improvement on load times between stages/levels or whatever then I'm doing it. I can delay my play prior to starting but once I've started I want the game to flow as smoothly as possible. As for the space required and managing your HDD space...Get use to it. After all isn't that space management just another game skill we developed playing RPG's?

For those that argue the point that consoles shouldn't have an install required and that if you wanted one then you'd just be playing games at your pc and wouldn't need a console. Thats just silly. I play games on my console so that I can sit and chill in front of the TV on the couch with a beer on the coffee table. Perhaps I'll even have friends over to play. That's a bit hard to do on a PC.

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread; Patience is a skill. Clearly this information and technology age we're living in has hampered many people's ability to be patient.

There was a recent study conducted where kids of various ages were asked to stand on an X. Everyone younger than 12 couldn't stand on the X for more than 2 min. 20 years ago you could ask a 7 year old to stand on an X and they could do it for as long as you wanted them to. So what's wrong with society today? Answer = ?

MUCKRAKER07

The only time I might care is if I'm at a midnight launch of something like GTA4 and I have work the next day. If I get home from the launch and have to wait 20 minutes to play the game before going to bed, I'd be pissed.

Otherwise, I like the idea of Nintendo requiring installs of 1 gig or more for Wii games.

boxmyth

@IntelSilver: Your response doesn't bother me, but I think the point a lot of people are making is that they don't mind a performance enhancing install as long as it's optional. People don't seem to mind the install time as much as the space they they must make whether they want to do it or not.

peacefuloutrage

I think I would be slightly annoyed at my games doing this on a console, especially if you have a bunch of friends rushing over to try your new games.

I understand the benefits of Caching but 20 minutes and large installs are kinda screwy if you ask me.

static

Why all of the complaining? You only install once. Besides games like Brawl (if at one time Nintendo were willing, a hard disk, voice chat, meeting rooms and DLC) could benefit from a thing like an installation.

So the PS3 is a different machine, it's not a big loss.

SuperMekman

I upgraded my PS3 HDD to 250 GB, but I still feel that 5gb for one game to install, is a little ridiculous. Especially if it's not from the 'station store, but from a disc.

NexusSIX

@Ruisu:

For me, it's not the initial waiting, but the space it takes. 5GB's is a good chunk for one game. What if all games start doing it? You have 10 games, and there's 50GB's. I'd rather my HD filled up with demos, music, movies, etc.. than mandatory installs. Give consumers a choice.

LittleBigPlaneteer

You know, I remember the days when the benefits of a console was that you DID NOT need to install a game. That is one of the pro's of having a console. The fact that you install a game on your console shows signs of a drastic change of console-gaming. And not in a good way.

Sooner or later, we'll be installing every game out there and we'll be able to install apps like Words*.

* As an example.

Witless

but its only 20 minutes is it really that bad? if its going to help the game I simply dont care & if its a game I have been waiting for I can wait 20 more minutes but no more cuz then I go a little Crazy

Ruisu

Unreal Tournament 3 has an optional install which I gladly did. And if all my games had optional installs I do them too. It doesn't really bother me at all. Like waiting 20 minutes somehow makes the game worse. People with that limited amount of patience shouldn't be playing games anyway.

ItotheCtotheE

BTW, I opted to install UT3, took 15 minutes. Now I'm glad I did, because load screens are really short now.

RaepGoblin

I will not buy any game that require 5g+ install if you can wait for 20 minutes in the beginning the you can wait for load times. Plus I like my snack and pee breaks don't you???

Schoolimangooli

So this is why Sony keeps pumping out the larger hard drives instead of a price cut...

Ohh well. Unhappy fans is just the price of forcing 1st generation blu ray tech on the customers. Something I was never thrilled about being forced to purchase if I wanted a PS3. Blu ray lead to higher PS3 production costs and Sony's current 3rd place market position.

What's the benefit to the gamer really? The same data placed on the disk multiple times as well as install times? I'll stick with my DVDs until the blu ray technology is refined and faster.

Iron_Dragon_2.0

No big deal for me, I upgraded my drive to a 250GB a while back. Sure the wait sucks, but once its over you forget all about it.....

Now excuse me while I go play DMC4

cduran02

@eilegz:

Could you elaborate on that problem

LittleBigPlaneteer

my friend its a 20gb user and even if he wants to change the Hard drive its pretty screw up with the blue screw of death...

lets hope this do not become a tendency i mean even new 40gb users would be affected with this

eilegz

@Datheron: good info man

I just can't see Sony implementing a size limit. having more games use this 'feature' of installing without an option to do so also incredibly limits what games you want to install that give the option

excel_excel

@Sollus: I agree with you. Those developers are making the game specifically for PS3. I think the "laziness" excuse can be thrown out. The use of an HD is a god-send to developers and it gives them more flexibility. No complaints from me.

sascha23

It comes with the times. You gotta do a little install and it ends up with an overall better gaming experience with minimal load times. I think I can space 10-20 minutes for a one-time install. :)

sascha23

I hate the idea of game installs on a game console. Thankfully the only reason its on the PS3 is because the ps3 blu-ray drive is so slow. If I was a PS3 owner i would probably be pissed. Those installs are both 5gb I believe. Thats 25% of your entire hard drive if you got the 40gb. Yeah I know you can switch out the hard drive for any 2.5", but its still totally ridiculous. How do they expect the average consumers to react to this?

NutManIV

So everyone's just going to lie down and take this, yet the biggest technical "obstacle" facing MGS4 on 360 (rumour, I know) was having to switch discs midgame? If MGS4 was four DVDs, it would take less time to switch the discs than it would for one of these installs to finish. I have an interest in this clearing up (owning a PS3 and not a 360) but I would say that arguing for these installs and not tolerating multiple discs is an incredible double standard.

PS
I would also like to point out that it is ridiculous that the best way to convey that I'm not a "fanboy" so my opinion aren't discarded or derided is to advertise what consoles I own.

robbo_the_hood

Lazy devs, never fails.

Papa Midnight

@IntelSilver: You want to spend 20 minutes installing so that games load maybe half a second faster?

celery

@LittleBigPlaneteer: Assasins Creed is a 2GB install on the PS3.

JustinS

Also, if it's the developer not optimizing multi-platform games then what's the excuse for Hot Shots Golf and GT5:Prologue?

Sollus

installs that reduce load times are the best thing ever, and having them mandatory is just to make development easier, so they don't have to cater to both install and non-install options. i would rather have mandatory installs that no install option.

munchausen

I don't dig it very much to be honest. I'm a console gamer because I don't like how PC gaming works. I like not having to worry about upgrading my PC every few months to play a new game, I like being able to sit at my couch to play and I like not having to sit through an install screen. This is just another step at blurring the lines between the two mediums.

Sollus

Also here's an inquiry, has there been any mandatory installs that weren't made by a Japanese studio? DMC4, Hot Shots Golf, and GT5 are all made by Japanese developers. Perhaps they're reinforcing one another?

LittleBigPlaneteer

All I ask for is an Option. If I want smaller load times during the game, let me choose that. Screw this mandatory crap. If every game make you install, you're going to run out of on-board space.

LittleBigPlaneteer

eh, depends on the game, i guess. if i was to rent Hot Shots 2 golf, its silly that id have to make room, or delete it later to play MGS4, though.
its a worrying trend, and i hope it doesnt long continue. its not the wait for me, its the HD space - and no, i shouldnt have to go to newegg and buy a new one to accomodate; 60 GB should be plenty considering all i got on there is demos and PSN games, mostly.

TheIrishNinja

As a clarification, I am comparing performance to the 360.

I suppose that an even bigger issue (as numerous other posters pointed out) is that the installation takes up so much HD space, that if this kind of thing were to become a trend, gamers would have to constantly keep clearing their hard drives just to play new games.

schizosid

Gaming consoles w/ mandatory installations...
How anyone can even accept this is beyond me.
Every time you buy a copy that has this bullshit implented you are telling the devs Its ok, and they will continue with this nonsense.

If you dont see a problem where this is heading, you're either one of those people who only buy 4-5 games in an entire generation or you're a f'in idiot!

KEELr

I don't mind waiting the time for the installs. The part that bothers me is how large they are. I don't want to have to spend extra money just so I can install another game. Without any big installs, I have before dipped below half on my 60 gb. Plus with patches and firmware updates, the space is going to get tight, not to mention save files. I don't want to have to spend even more money on my already expensive console to have to upgrade it. I wanted to upgrade the HD, but so I could put movies and music on it, not because I want to play a new release. I certainly don't want to be constantly deleting old installs because then if I ever want to play the game again, I have to sit through another long install. So, developers, installs are alright, just keep it to a reasonable size and not just for the reason of being lazy and unwillingness to find out how to work the technology.

DocBacca

If it has to do with them putting too much stuff on the blu-ray disc, I can't imagine the outrage that will occur when MGS4 comes out.

Mit

I don't think it's really a big deal, yet. If it get to the point where in 2 years every big name title and many smaller ones having you making installs it'll be a huge pain. When you have a lot of games there definitely something to be said for being able to just pop in the disc and go.

t0yrobo

So does anyone think that mandatory install time is NOT tolerable?
I mean, someone who's not trying rationalize a $500 purchase might say that a required installation that doesn't actually enhance the game's performance (DMC, anyone?) is the result of very poor implementation.

schizosid

5Gb installs are rediculous. That is basically a PC install size. But the BluRay drive is slow speed so devs have to install on the hd to have load times low.

Someone that got the 20Gb PS3 is screwed after 4 games.

pb00

@excel_excel: Well, the problem's that the loading time isn't just "slightly faster" - it's a little faster compared to DVD's, but substantially so against streaming from the Blu-ray disk directly.

It's not that surprising that devs are choosing the "dump the DVD" approach, though; it *is* the quicker way to do it, and for multi-platform stuff which didn't put the PS3 in the forefront, reorganizing your code and data to make the best use of the Bluray drive is expensive after there's already a working system on the dev machines.

It's going to take some coercion on Sony's part if we're ever going to rein in developers from taking up 1/10th of a system's hard drive....just imagine how bloated XBL games would be if Microsoft didn't impose their size limits (and I don't mean just special cases like SSF2HD, but *every game*).

Datheron

I have the cd version of Half life 2. It's at least 5 disks. I'm not saying people shouldn't complain, because it is a console and thus should be more streamlined, however, it could be a hell of a lot worse.

CaptLtrl

It doesnt bother me much, I think the longest I needed to wait was 30min.

boots555

Wth, it's not that much of a big deal. You want games to load fast or not?
Yes?
Then shut up, people.

/offense

IntelSilver