@Spartan1308:
I have insider information that Bayonetta will be EXACTLY like "The Sims". All of the tough talking one-liners will be in Simish and if the lead character doesn't go to the bathroom every three minutes she will release the effective (but embarrassing) BLADDER ATTACK.

What I was saying is "The Sims" prove you can create engaging gameplay with-out the need for a gun or a sword. No game has sold as well as "The Sims" across so many demographics. I don't want to see an action game like "The Sims"; I want to see an action game which lets me be my bad-ass character in ways other than just killing things. Seems to be working for that low budget, limited release game - GTA IV.

SunnydaZe10

Ok, I gotta say that really the point I wanted to make is that the story and narrative should support gameplay and vice versa. In DMC4 (FOR EXAMPLE), it didn't very well and things you did felt out of context. END OF STORY.

The comparison with Gears is that (WHO CARES IF THE PLOT WASN'T SHAKESPEARE) the gameplay and places where you traveled supported the narrative, etc. You more or less felt like you were participating.

All in all, I'm saying that unless Kamiya draws an emotive connection; and I'm not saying he should include a drama story, between gameplay and the narrative then it's going to be this empty shell at least for me. There always seems to be a focus on making the combo and fighting system more and more complicated without any attention or focus to the level design or putting things into context. I'm saying because "these other games did so", that they have helped evolved the genre. Kamiya might only be looking at it in a GAMEPLAY sense; looking and how the player connects with the avatar via control schemes and combo systems, whereas I'm saying he should look to other aspects of the game to evoke emotion and emergent gameplay.

Kuren

@GhostWhoWalks: And I definitely went alot longer then I had intended, but hey, you asked for it.

GhostWhoWalks

@Ashurahori: You want me to get in-depth with this, I can. Let's start from square one:

Dante begins as a typical teenager; childish, selfish and doesn't like, well anyone. He's got a grudge against both his father and demons in general; his father for leaving his family, demons in general for killing his mother. And he doesn't get along well with his brother because Vergil's thrown himself head-first into his demon side, which could be seen by Dante as a betrayal.

Both of the siblings, of course, have the legacy of their father, the greatest swordsman to have ever lived (in the story, atleast) and defender of humanity to live up to, and neither seem too interested in doing that. Dante's got a storefront and people knocking down his door wanting him to go take care of their demon problems, but he's content with sitting around in his shop and eating pizza. Vergil, on the other hand, would rather get out of his father's shadow and make a name for himself...and if he has to unleash hell on earth to achieve that end, then so be it. He finds Dante to be a bit of an insult to his existence, as Dante has half of their father's abilities, but no desire to use them.

On the human side of the equation, Arkham is your typical power-hungry villain. He's so overly cliche, in fact, that I can't help but wonder if the game's developers made him like that on purpose, giving him more of a satirical spin. Between his long-winded speeches and classic Bond villain laugh, he's so run-of-the-mill that he actually ends up being an interesting contrast to the more unconventional Sparda twins. What's nice about Arkham's involvement in the story is that he's not actually the main threat in the game; he simply provides motivation for the three other characters, who all develop a rather significant dislike of the bastard, unifying them against this common enemy.

Finally, Lady hates all demons, with her hit-list beginning and ending with her backstabber of a father. If anything, she can be considered a racist; seeing the example set by her father in his pursuit of power, she just gives all demons in general a blanket consideration of disgust. Not only does she want revenge on her old man, but she feels responsible for all the nasty business he's been pulling; if anyone's going to be putting him down, it might as well be a member of his family. Of course, under all that, she's got some lingering doubts. It's assumed that she actually had a good relationship with Arkham before he went psycho, and while taking revenge on her father is good in theory, she's not sure if she'll be to pull it off when crunch time comes. After all, how many times have you prepared to speak in public (make a speech, perform in a play, etc), but gotten butterflies in the stomach right before showtime? Lady's comfortable with the idea of killing her mother's murderer, but killing her father? In the beginning of the game, that's an entirely different animal to her. If you'll notice throughout the story, she's alittle too quick to let herself be tricked during her encounters with Arkham, and even a bit hesitant to pull the trigger in the end.

So what happens when the four of them all get mixed up in a funky demon tower? Everyone except Arkham (who, as previously stated, is there just to provide motivation for the other three) is suddenly forced to take a second look at their personal policies. Lady, after meeting Dante, realizes that the world doesn't exist as a simple black and white; there are shades of grey in both demons and humans. Vergil discovers that constantly ramming his head against the wall of Sparda's legacy is just giving him a headache, but instead of changing his ways, stubbornly presses onward and ends up with his ass handed to him.

Dante's is the most significant development, however. Losing to Vergil in their first round forces him to realize that he's hit his current limitations, forcing him to accept the demon side of himself. Seeing Lady pushing herself so hard and listening to her motives makes him realize that perhaps sitting around all day and entertaining himself might not be the way to go; that maybe instead of rejecting his demon lineage, Sparda, he should instead take responsibility for it and for the destructive actions of his brother.

If anything, it's the game's ending that really stands out. Lady is thrilled to have finally avenged her mother, but distraught at having just killed her own father. Dante proves to Vergil that maybe paying respect to their dad isn't so bad after all and tries to communicate to his twin the lesson he had just learned about the importance of family. Wonderfully defiant of all the happy endings this story could have, Vergil simply laughs in his face and tells him to piss off.

It is entirely possible that DMC 3 was never intended to have such a deep plot. But if lightning strikes and gives you free lemonade, who am I to complain?

GhostWhoWalks

He created Devil May Cry and Okami. That is enough for me to believe what he says.

P.S. I don't know why Gears is mentioned so many times here. Not only isn't it in the same category as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, and God of War, but it WISHES it was as good as any of these other games. Crappy controls FTL.

gencid

They really haven't

GhaleonUnlimited

@Ashurahori: Hey!

Power Rangers was awesome. :-(

Earnie's acting really made me feel like he truly owned a Juice Bar.

Kanik

@Ashurahori: Touche.

ビッグ ボス

@ビッグ ボス: You never know until you tried! =D

Ashurahori

He's holding up my favorite Gatorade flavor, Lime RAIN. I hope he's not implying it tastes like Windex. It tastes much better.

I presume.

ビッグ ボス

Here's to another endless stream of comments that seem to have missed the point. Kamiya has a crew of people, and wants to better his standard. Thats it. The end.

Good for him, and good luck to Platinum. I just hope Bayonetta doesn't cause another pointless waste of time and bandwidth via discussion of the finer points of its story post-release like this wankfest over DMC on here.

new_pornographer

@Wolfers: I miss those times. Back when all we needed was a cool character with a gun and lotsa enemies between us and the level end.

And when our most dramatic moment, was losing the spread gun.

Ashurahori

Remember when games just had to be fun to play?

Wolfers

@Garro: Virgil posessed him? Dante "realising Virgil has posessed Nero? Why does all this seem like it's coming out of a fanfiction? Please tell me what game you played, because it sounds very different. Kyrie finding out about Nero's arm was all "Why did you do this?" and "It's not what you think!" Where have those phrases NOT been said before? Every single one of those were spoofing drama. Either that, or the entire game was one big fucking coincidence of bad corny scenes and lines put together.

Kyrie seeing Nero's arm for the first time? Been used millions of times, and it's been added for humor/corny purposes on games several times, as an example I use Prince of Persia: Two Thrones.

Dante realising Nero's posessed by Virgil? He doesn't even flinch. He sees Nero's a demon, and gives him the sword. What fanfictions have you been reading?

Nero and Kyrie coming together at the end? Wow, he's a demon, and she forgives him for that fact. TOTALLY NOT CORNY. They had to add the office part to make it at least a bit humorous.

Credo dying? They had to put Dante making quips just so people wouldn't get bored.

And Nero trying to grab Kyrie but only grabbing the pendant? Seriously, if you have never seen that kind of thing in a movie or something, what world do you live in? From someone falling off a cliff and the other guy only grabbing a pendant or a hair, or someone's hand slaipping off, or someone being tken away and the other person reaching out... that scene has been RAPED TO DEATH in movies over the years.

The reason I commented on your intelligence, is because you're calling a story with the same quality as a Power Rangers episode something with "quality", and that just goes beyond being sane.

Ashurahori

@108: You know honestly every quip of yours wavers between serious and non-serious, so if theres sarcasm to detect, it's well hidden. That's your style though, in'it?

But hey, if I stop arguing points, I won't be in a box! eh? eh? Yeah yeah, forget everything I said, I'm off to purchase Katamri and pre-order Spore! Innovative, and radical!

Garro

@excel_excel: Oh, I'm not saying Devil May Cry 3 didn't work, because it did, and it was kinda hilarious -- I'm saying it didn't work at breaking the 3D hardcore action genre totally into the realm of "mainstream entertainment". Which, believe it or not, is kind of these game-designer people's goal, these days.

@Garro: Yeah, the thing about starred commenters was kind of a joke! Apparently the star by your wasn't awarded for ability to detect sarcasm!

The "hugely telling sign" I reference is in no way a personal attack to your objectively poor taste in entertainment! I am merely noting -- and factually-- that all of these people posting on here don't agree on one definitive answer to the question: "What is the best 3D action beat-em-up of them all?"

This is, of course, a hugely telling sign that "there has yet to be an actual, definitive, great, amazing 3D beat-em-up"!

You, sir, are inside of a box! I know Metal Gear Solid 4 is coming out in just a few weeks, though try stepping outside it every once in a while!

108

AHEM. MY TWO CENTS on this, because everyone else is doing it.

Devil May Cry is for the lols. It's corny, campy, it turns everything up to eleven and this is what makes it enjoyable in my eyes. It is Capcom, Capcom for crying out loud, why are you expecting or discussing coherent storylines, Capcom is big, bombastic, dumb and entertaining company who make big, bombastic, dumb and entertaining games. I will not move from this position.

Also, am I the only one who feels that this plotdiscussion is moving off topic? The evolution of 3D action games... I'll be honest here, I believe DMC created them as they are today. OKAY, perhaps some obscure game somepace did DMC's mechanics first, I wouldn't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the truth as I hold it is that DMC packaged the concept and the mechanics in the kind of package that could deliver itself to the large crowd, popularizing the mechanics so that they became the standard. And what was that standard, those mechanics? 3D-beat emu ps with one character. Launchers, juggling, distance poking, it's all in there. As was previously stated, DMC was the mix between Double Dragon and Street Fighter for the new generation of consoles, with a metric buttockston of extra polish.

And has the genre really moved away from that? Isn't it true that when most people think action games, they think "Take Devil May Cry's concept, then add or change a few things"? I have heard that God Hand is different, even if I do not know how, but we can all see how influential that game turned out. Which is not a riff on the game, I bought it too, it's just a general comment. It is my belief that DMC set a standard, a belief I am open to be disproven of, but I doubt I will be.

I think that my point here is that I do not disagree with the man: he made a mold, a prototype that others evolved and you know? Is that such a bad thing, that others are polishing his formula? Some people seem insulted when they hear that Ninja Gaiden came from Devil May Cry, but it did! And that doesn't mean Jack, Terminator took shooting stuff which has been done since westerns and made some changes to the formula, and look! It's still a masterpiece! It wasn't the first movie to have people shooting others, and people still love it! Can't games be like that? Can't people accept that there's no shame in a game being a derivative in that sense? Respect DMC for what it brought to the world, acknowledge that, but beyond that don't put it on a pediestal.

I am hoping that with Bayonetta Kamiya does create a new mold for action games that others can imitate and refine, and that people don't start harshing these games for it. Kamiya gets to do the original works he wants to work on, others see the works for what they are and decide to improve on the formula, EVERYONE WINS. Except for whiny fanboys on the internet, since they don't have the souls that let hem realize that winning doesn't have to mean someone else has to lose.

Love your knock-offs when they're well done. That's all I'm saying.

Lalamp_Lalamb.

Itagaki seems to be on the same page, which turns out to be a different page afterall.

sir_carrot

I disagree with this man.

Devil May Cry blows.

MBCpeanut

@Ashurahori: Credo's belief system is simply, demons suck and they should die. That's what the Order teaches. The Order has a power structure in place, yeah, but going against that system, "his hliness," doesn't mean changing your beliefs by any means. I mean, I think it would take a family member if nothing else to open someones eyes to the corruption in what they served.

Again, they do explain Nero's arm: Virgil posessed him years ago. Why? They don't explain that I guess, but everything in the game points to Virgil being the source of Nero's power.

Dante and Nero both talk lots of trash, they have attitude and spunk. In that regard, the dialogue will definitely be riddled with funny one liners, it's who they are. On the same token, there are plenty of scenes that are completely serious and pretty powerful. Kyrie seeing Nero's arm for the first time, Dante realizing Nero's posessed by Virgil, Nero and Kyrie coming together in the end, Credo dieing at the hands of his holiness(I seriousley cannot remember this dudes name), and Nero trying to grab Kyrie but getting the pendant. I mean, every single one of those, in my mind, were meant to be taken seriousley. I did, and I really didn't see how they were corny or meant to be spoofing drama. Plus Nero had his arm in a sling... Unless you were putting your hands in front of your face for the intro.

The thing is, you look at this as just being a ridiculous action fest, so it's never going to be anything more to you no matter what. Nothing I can say will change that, but could you just at least accept that this isn't "for" you? You aren't "getting it," but you don't have to be such a prick about it. But, I'm glad you can comment on my intelligence so elequently, and add to the conversation while doing it too!

Oh and do tell, what holy tomes of divinely wrought language hast thine eyes gazed upon? What dusty sheaf of wisdom granted you such omniscience to truly determine the good and the bad, the alpha and the omega, the have and the have nots? You know, share your shit so I can get book learned too and understand good story telling.

Hey, just trying to un-dumbify myself here! =D

Garro

@Ashurahori: Yeah! god thanks for reminding me about that rubbish laugh scene, fuck why did they put that in FF X? heres what it looked like on paper
Tidus: ahahaha!
yuna: ahahaha!
both: ahahahahaha!

excel_excel

@excel_excel: EXACTLY. This is like saying "I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONE TO FILL YOUR DARK SOUL WITH LIIIIIIIGHT!" from DMC1 was a quality line. Or that the laughing scene from Final Fantasy X wasn't total rubbish.

Ashurahori

@GhostWhoWalks: Devil May Cry 3?

Character development:

Dante: "I am a demon hunter who likes to kick ass!"
Lady: "I am taking revenge for my mother by killing my father!"
Arkham: "I tricked everyone into getting here so I could rule the world, and NOBODY saw it coming, because I'm TOTALLY not a vizier/Starscream/Betraying son of a bitch kind of guy!"
Virgil: "I want to summon demons and destroy the world and get my father's power because I honor my demon heritage!"

Compelling Conflicts? The characters fight because it looks cool. Dante fights demons with a GUITAR. They have a few motives, but it all comes down to cool, stylish fights.

Plot twists? Arkham saying "Oh I'm alive and I lied and now I'm going to destroy the world!" is hardly a twist. It's more like a predictable cliché.

Ashurahori

@108: "devil may cry 3 tried being silly and over the top with its cut-scenes. didn't work!"
wait, WHAT?! That how Devil May Cry 3 DID work! its over the topness and the fact that Dante was a cocky prick are what made it so badass!

excel_excel

@Garro: Coulda fooled me. The game's an amalgamation of corny quotes, bad plots, and "awesome just for the sake of awesome", and that's why I like it.

I mean, look at certain things in the game. Credo changed his entire belief system that had been banged his entire life on his head simply based on the fact that they were using his sister to complete the savior, something he could have been "proud" of. Nothing's explained about Kyrie and Nero's relationship, or how Nero got his demon arm, except for a supposed "accident". Kyrie spends most of the game away, or unconscious. Nero's "love" for Kyrie, is simply doing what he can do kick ass all the way until he gets to her. Does any of the dialogue have any quality except for comedy purposes? No. Wouldn't SOMEONE have noticed a whole arm growing out of him demonically? The only explanation about the Order, is that it's a cult that reveres Sparda, and suddenly they go bad because they're making a bigass statue of him, turning themselves into demons with shapes of angels, and summoning demons just to destroy them. What the fuck? In the end, Nero and Kyrie hold hands, and Kyrie says: "I don't mind that you're a demon, I love you anyways!" Seeing that you're taking this seriously makes me cry in the dumbness of the human race.

Characters do stylish things just because they can, and Dante's flamenco-like sexual innuendo, his theatrics with Agnus... The entire game's a laugh riot. It's funny because it can be funny. It's got stylish combat because it can have stylish combat. But in the parts where it takes itself seriously, it simply and utterly fails.

God dammit, haven't you people read any books recently? Don't you know what a good story is anymore? Devil May Cry is entertaining, but it can NEVER be called a quality dramatic love story.

Ashurahori

@Krimmson: I think so.
DMC is the father of 3D action games. All others are just imitating. Some are great, like GoW, but DMC was the "Super Mario Bros." of its genre.

TheCleaningGuy

@Kanik:

LOL

EnigmaNemesis

I don't really understand the people who are saying that none of the DMCs have a good story: I just need to point to Devil May Cry 3.

Character development? Check.
Compelling conflicts? Check.
Plot twists? Check.

Yes, DMC4 wasn't as good as it could have been. It left a ton of holes in the plot, and did only one thing right; it set up what could be a truly epic DMC5. Will Capcom follow through? We'll just have to wait and see.

GhostWhoWalks

@Garro: It's been proven that people without stars are actually sub-humans.

Kanik

@108: Dude, people disagree about friggan Shakespeare. And a star on Kotaku isn't a college degree or anything, so that's hardly a factor in adding more weigh to what we have to say about story.

I love the DMC characters, and having seen a shit ton of anime I don't now where you get the idea that they're simply a summation of "what's cool in anime." Fast paced hard hitting action is a common theme, but past that they're pretty original. If you're going to just look at them having white hair, trenchcoats, and big swords then hey, who am I to stop you. So Cloud, Alucard, Dante, Sigfried, Beyond the Grave, and Vash the Stampede are all one character design?

Anyway, there's only a handful of us in here, and we're not exactly the best spread on video game culture, so again I don't see where you're getting that as a "hugely telling sign."

Garro

@Kuren: Agreed, Nero was painful to watch. I enjoyed playing as Dante because his scenes all had a light hearted feel to it, making you feel like you should just enjoy yourself and not care about the plot. Nero though, his character takes everything so seriously and the game's story suffers from it. Whenever he spoke I felt like crying. I would've skipped the cutscenes if they weren't so stylishly done.

I felt like GoW Chains Of Olympus, a PSP game, even had a better story than DMC4...but then again, I also felt it had better character development than the PS2 GoW games. >_>

Kanik

@Ashurahori: From DMC 4's producer, " It's more than just a game, and it's better than a movie, because we've thought about the story, made the graphics look beautiful-- we've put a lot of work into it." on Wired: [blog.wired.com]

Find me a single quote that shows the developers look at the series as just a spoof.

@Kuren: Berial wasn't the main villain, he was a major demon who came out of the hellgate, so there's no reason to explain more than what was presented. Saying that not knowing specifically who he is a problem, is like saying it was stupid to have the Brumak in Gears because no one explains where it comes from, or even how Locust biology works. Berial says he hasn't seen the human world for a thousand years, which insinuates he fought with Sparda. Not to mention, he says, "You're just like he is," to Nero, which insinuates Berial crossed paths with Virgil in hell. I'd say that's enough.

They completely explain how demons exist. Agnus has been experimenting with demons for a long time, long enough to create his own (flying swords, swimming swords) and trap demon souls in suits of armor. Not only do we know why they're technically there, we're told that the Order has been setting plans in motion to bring about paradise. They believe that if they cleanse the world with demons, then protect any loyal humans, only peace will ensue.

As we saw, all the civilians were being evacuated. By the time Nero begins his romp, the entire city has been pretty much deserted because people are getting away from the demonic horde.

No, they aren't fighting for assumed reasons. I don't know if you skipped the cutscenes or what, because none of this information is hidden. Dante and Trish are there because first of all, they're devil hunters. Dante's business is called "Devil May Cry," and he hunts demons. So, Lady comes in (hell we even have an explanation as to why that's her name as seen in DMC3) and tells them about the order. They've been trapping demons, collecting devil arms, and worshiping Sparda like a god. Dante hates demons, this is his business, so he has more than enough motive to be there. Seeing as how Trish has infiltrated the Order as Gloria, Dante knows that "his holiness" is really just a tyrannical bastard, giving reason for killing him in the opening cutscene. Nero fights Dante in the beginning because he just saw him kill his leader. After Dante gets away, Nero is chasing him providing motive for what you're supposed to be doing up until the point where you fight Agnus, then Credo. Agnus turns the Order against Nero, and so Credo tries to stop him because he's possessed by a demon. At that point, we see Kyrie getting taken away by Agnus, so Nero is fighting to save her straight up until he gets sucked into the Savior. Now, Dante being on a mission and having the power and will to defeat the Order, heads after the Savior killing the major demons along the way and closing up hellgates.

All of this is in the cutscenes, I absolutely have no idea how you possibly missed all of it.

Nero is possessed by Virgil, and if you don't know who that is then I can totally see why this doesn't fit for you. Yamato isn't just some sword, it was Virgils half of Spardas blade. When Nero get's pinned by the Blanco Angelo, he finally activities his devil trigger and says, "Ever since that day, a voice has been calling to me. Power, give me more power." That, combined with Yamato shooting into his hand (literally), is more than enough evidence to show Virgil is the one whose giving Nero this power, if you payed attention to DMC3. There's nothing "typically anime" about that love story. It's just, a love story. If you had all those crazy powers, and were as deeply in love as Nero, I'm fairly certain that if you saw her getting taken away by a crazy locust demon you'd fight to get her too. You really need a reason why they're in love? I don't think even real people can honestly and accurately explain why they're in love, you don't need clinical reasons to understand or appreciate it.

Gears of War has possibly the most convoluted background out of any video game. All we know is that Serra was attacked by the locust, and all the humans retreated to some city(forget the name) because of a special rock strata that prevented emersion tunnels. As for the levels showing what happened, that's crap. All we see is that it's war torn and abandoned - something clearly explained in the first cutscene. The whole background is convoluted because you're never told exactly where you're fighting. Are you outside the last city or inside it? Where are the rest of the Cog forces? Do the Gears just operate in 4 man squads all the time? Where is the war front, and how is it faring? If the humans had taken refuge in one city, you'd assume the Locust would be mounting a massive frontal assault since they can't tunnel, but all we see them doing is picking off Cog squads in this unnamed city. The queen even says, "their forces are thinning" or something to that effect, just when about 8 people died. I mean, I know the Cog are hard men, but god damn. 8 guys warrants a "forces thinned' tag? The only fictional soldiers who are THAT badass are the 40k Index Astartes, and the Cog don't even come close.

There's no evidence to show Kratos wants redemption. In fact, all he verbally asks for is for the dreams to end. Someone whose being punished who asks for the punishment to stop isn't asking for redemption, they're just sick of the torture. Kratos never tries to make amends or says he wants anything other than a break, which is not indicative of a character whose "seen the light" so to speak. Even when he does get over the dreams, he's still a selfish bastard - he doesn't change, he didn't want redemption. It's like if a thief in prison did whatever he needed to get out, and just went straight back to thieving.

Right, no game is perfect but I think we're hardly nitpicking about DMC. Every point you've been confused about has a clear explanation in the game. Saying there isn't enough context or justification is like saying you ran out of the room every time a cutscene popped up. It is, however the 4th game in the series. So if you're just breaking into it I can see how this would be confusing to you. But I don't think it's necessary to completely recap every aspect of a franchises mythology in the sequels in order for the story to be good.

I meant DMC and MGS synch up gameplay to story perfectly. What you can do as that character perfectly suits their personality and abilities.

Garro

I think the simple fact that none of you people, even the starred commenters can agree on what makes one of these games better than any others is a hugely telling sign.

game republic's GENJI was designed to be the DMC/Onimusha-like action game that finally broke the genre into the mainstream; its innovation was "lots of healing items". didn't quite work!

devil may cry 3 tried being silly and over the top with its cut-scenes. didn't work!

devil may cry 4 tried being dead-serious -- to a point of final fantasy vii-ism -- didn't quite work!

the best straight-forward beat-em-the-hell-up action game of the current wave -- and perhaps of all time -- is of course GODHAND, though it'd take a goddamned doctorate thesis to explain why.

somebody really needs to make a game that's as satisfying and deep as GODHAND and as accessible as dynasty warriors.

it'd -- hmmmm -- probably play a lot like devil may cry, only with a streamlined story presentation (the gears of war invocations are actually appropriate!) and characters who are actually likable on their own merits, as opposed to, you know, just collections of checklist items for "what's cool in videogame / anime culture recently".

it'd probably also have actual level design.

in other words: more people need to play SPARTAN: TOTAL WARRIOR, GEARS OF WAR, and GODHAND.

less dynasty warriors, god of war, and devil may cry.

yep.

108

@Strangelove:

I thought the demo for Heavenly Sword, kicked DMC4's ass.

/shrug

Will be playing the retail version this week.

EnigmaNemesis

@Garro: The facts that DMC4 should make it a compelling and interesting story, but it doesn't carry through. For example, when you fight Berial, you don't know who he is, or what he's there for exactly. He's out of context. Most of the bosses, enemies, if not most of or all, have no reason to really be there. For example, one of the largest plot holes which should be explained is how the demons exist in the real world. Where are all the civilians? What type of life are they living? These are situational events which should be explained and provide an insight into the world which Nero and Dante are fighting for. Otherwise, they're just fighting for assumed reasons "just cause" which is pretty plain and simple "good vs evil".

The reason why the story of Nero and Kyrie's love story didn't touch base with me is that I hated Nero. I don't like what the developers had to say about how his abilities connected with the rest of the world. Was he powerful because there are tons of other powerful devil hunters, or he just happened to be there with a devil arm and happened to face off Dante, and (SPOILER) happened to get the Yamato? What was so particular about him? I needed more context of how he fit in the world. Of course his attitude was unrealistic; he was the typical anime character which had a love interest and the girl liked him for no real reason. Kyrie liked him for what reasons? He's good looking? The developers just said "just cause" and again; no justification. I can't cheer for the good guys if I don't know why they even like each other.

In Gears of War, if you had noticed, which a lot of people probably didn't notice too much because it wasn't explained enough, is from location to location, it explains what happened to the world of Sera. Moving through the streets, going to Fenix mansion, moving through the Imulsion caves, moving into the Stranded areas, moving onto the train, etc. All these areas further explained what was explained in the intro video; the Pendulum Wars, peace, then Emergence Day, The Stranded, the ongoing war with the Locust. I'm not saying that these things were explained very well, nor did they evoke tear jerking moments, but it provided a context of the world, and a motive for Marcus and Fenix of why they're fighting.

In God of War, you know Kratos' wife loves him but also hates him for his blood lust and power. You can dislike him because he's an idiot who opted for power rather than loving his family properly, but in nutshell, he's a guy that sinned and wants to redeem himself. Say if a buncha guys strapped you down to a chair, and made a CG video of you killing your wife and children, and made you watch it for the next 10 years continuously non stop. You knew it was fake and out of your control cause you didn't do it. How would you feel?

I could go on and on about the things I think they should have added to DMC4 and no, don't think that I think Gears and God of War are perfect. Every game has their own faults so seriously we can be sitting here nitpicking till our heart's content. DMC for me, just doesn't have enough context and justification for me. The focus is the fighting and nothing else; there is no difference for me if you took the fighting system and a buncha enemies, placed it into an arena, compared to placing the same into a series of rooms and attaching a DMC story to it. And I think most people who have gripes about the game can say that the environment is cold and has no emotional or hypothetical attachment to the characters; this is something that needs to be remedied in order for DMC to be in anywhere shape or form to be a next generation game. And I don't mean the characters have to pick up chairs, tables, etc etc. There are ways and the developers should take more time to explore it as I'm sure they had before.

And comparing DMC to Metal Gear Solid; I'm kinda scratching my head there. MGS is kinda in a different realm altogether in terms of how complicated the story is.

Kuren

@Strangelove: God of War does use similar combat gameplay but it totally kicks the crap out of Devil May Cry. More specifically, GoW pins DMC to the floor, puts its foot on DMC's back and proceeds to rip DMC's arms out and swing them around.

Is it just me or are all developers getting as cocky as Uwe Boll? Maybe Uwe is in the wrong industry.

Kanik

I think it's funny he's touting his own, (in my opinion) mediocre game as the apex of the genre. I've never played the God of War series, but from what I've read it kicks DMC's fucking ass.

Really, though, this bullshit bravado from game developers, calling out other series like this or saying your game's the bomb like Peter Moore or just being a nerd-turned-into-(he thinks)-a-rock-star like Cliffy B (and if you refer to yourself as something like "Cliffy B"), you've officially become douchebags. Just make the goddamn game and let it do the talking for you.

Strangelove

@108: 100% agree, until they change this, the action genre will remain a monotonous experience with no sense of motivation. Unfortunately for me, that has happened during almost every action game I have ever owned, and thus, have owned very few.

I never beat Ninja Gaiden or DMC 1. I got to the end with Onimusha and just did not feel compelled enough to fight through however many damned levels of bad guys, why the hell did they ever make those sequences? Yeah, it tests your skills about as efficiently as possible, but coming up with a logical reason for it to exist is akin to swallowing all of that Xenu space 747 rubbish as a Scientologist.

sisedi

@Garro: Jesus Christ... did you just do it?

...you did it.

...YOU TOOK A DEVIL MAY CRY'S STORY SERIOUSLY.

Devil May Cry games mock their own corniness. They make fun of themselves in a way so that everyone can see what a total parody they are of any silly bad story that takes itself seriously.

Ashurahori

Fuckin' A, Kamiya. This gets me all the more excited for Bayonetta. I have faith in this fella... I can't wait to see what manner of innovations and evolutions he brings to the table.

Hopefully... You know.. Some.

Uzumaki_Kiba

Is this in response to Itagaki? I know he shit talked DMC recently

RPGr

They should mix DMC and megaman X or something...now that could be cool!

GodKiller

@Balius:

Locking on to an enemy perhaps? That has been emulated by oodles of games since?

new_pornographer

@EloraHRanma: I've gotta ask, what did Zelda 64 (assuming you mean Ocarina of Time) revolutionize? Auto-Jumping?

Balius

Ah yes, I do like the pic - it seems he uses both with his head in some shape or form.

Chef

Molyneux has had some serious face reconstruction, but once he opens his mouth you know it's him right away!

I cannot see any of his action games as evolutionary. The last evolution in 3D action games... let's see... Zelda64 and Soul Reaver? Maybe RE4, blending survival horror with all-out action style, but a rehash of Zelda games (Okami) or a button masher which plays as a graphically evolved Double Dragon (DMC) are no evolution whatsoever.

EloraHRanma

That can quite possibly be the greatest videogame deveoper pic I have ever seen.

Capcom, I love thee. No wait, Capcom I used to love thee, during the times of CPS1 , CPS2, SNES ports and games, then PSX games... your name is part of my childhood.

However, I could never get past the fact you dismissed Clover. I was sad by that day, affraid there would never be a Viewtiful Joe 3. Lately, you removed Clover's credits from Okami Wii... why, Capcom, why!?

I wish all the best to Seed... erm "Platinum Games" in their development future. v ^_^

Shiryu

Hideki, is in all honesty, the guy i hold second to kojima, he invented devil may cry, okami and now, i know for sure, hes gonna deliver with Bayonetta.

Capcom was Fucking retarded for letting him go and replacing him with that ass wipe KOBAYASHI.

WOW, i reinvented RE franchise, I AM GOD !, i can also reinvent the DMC franchise, just watch.

instead of diffrent and fun game puzzles that relate to the game were working on, im going to not give a shit. and put in board games instead, and lets rehash puzzles from the first DMC and the 3d DMC...and voila here it is DMC4. EVOLUTION IS HERE !.......FUCKING ASS WIPE.

but anyways, im glad this guy has his own studio now, FUCK CAPCOM. ever since they went multiplatform all thier shit has been going down hill.

DARE I SAY IT ??? could capcom be...THE JAPANESE EA!?!?!?!

tenkaix

@Kuren: How do you figure Gears had more emotion than DMC 4? I mean DMC's got Kyrie and Nero's love story, Dante reacting to Virgil possessing Nero, Credo reacting to The Order using Kyrie, Nero coming to grips with being possessed(the demon arm), plus Agnus was just a hilarious and a well done character. DMC's got a whooole lot more emotion going for it than Gears or GoW.

If that love story touched you less than Gears as a whole, I don't even know where to begin. It provided more than enough reason for me to keep playing. Hell, when the leader of The Order took Kyrie away and Nero only caught her talisman, I was more than determined to get to the next level. I think there was more meaningful drama in that one cut scene alone than Gears as a whole. The only thing Gears had going for it were passing references to Dom's wife or Marcus' father, and Kim dying. Which, had zero impact on me because I didn't know anything about him or how he interacted with the squad.

DMC has layered meanings which are much more powerful than what Gears ended up being. Nero was a member of The Order, but ever since he got possessed by Virgil he's had to deal with the fact that a part of him is what he's been destined to hunt, just like Dante. Both characters are half demon(Nero more recently), and they both hate demons. It's especially harder for Nero because one, he's in an entire society whose only goal is to kill demons in Spardas name and two, Kyrie, his love, doesn't kow about the arm. I loved the scene at the end where he says, "Kyrie... If I'm a demon, and not a human anymore. Is this what you want?", but then Kyrie replies, "Nero, you're you, and it's you I want to be with. I don't know anyone whose as human as you are." If that doesn't hit you, I mean... Really? That really isn't emotional? I mean the game is literally smacking players in the face with intense drama of all kinds.

I honestly don't see how God of War does a better job at providing a motive. I mean, where exactly did DMC 4 NOT provide motive for playing or reasons for puzzles? Every step of the way you know exactly what your'e going after. I mean literally for each level I could do a blow-by-blow for where your motive is, long term and short term. It's about as concise as you can get. If you're not hunting Dante you're saving Kyrie, and if you're not doing that you're trying to stop the savior, and then some.

Frankly God of War had the worst motivation possible for me: you're playing as a belligerent coward. Kratos couldn't accept defeat at the hands of the barbarian king, he had to pray to Aries just so he could slake his bloodlust. Any Spartan out of Frank Miller's 300 would probably kill Kratos for having such a huge yellow streak. Next, Kratos doesn't even learn from his mistakes. All he ever goes after is freedom from, wait for it, nightmares. Ho gee, after all the mass-murdering, family killing, and hubris he committed, I'd feel damn lucky if my only punishment was having bad dreams. Even when he becomes the freakin' God of War, he still doesn't act any differently from his days as a Spartan general. I mean personally, I want to like a character before I play the game. No, not even like, not hate. I have to not hate the main character, the one I'm playing as, in order for me to be motivated to get through it all.

DMC is about white hot fast paced demon killing with attitude, and it presents. Everything we know about Dante and Nero fits the gameplay, and as I said at the top of the page, DMC 4 is one of the few games where you actually play what you see in cutscenes (more or less). Both of these characters have the trash talking light hearted attitude down, and the no-defense all out assault style of action is so in synch with that the only thing that tops it is Metal Gear Solid. I'm not saying Gears and GoW gameplay don't synch with the characters, only that DMC does, and in my opinion does it better.

You didn't provide any examples for your points, so I can't really pick apart where exactly you're referring with these games. So, if there's anything you can specifically mention about DMC that didn't do it for you, I'll be happy to debate it.

@108: DMC's gameplay stands on it's own two feet. While the environment would be fun to use, I'd take the depth DMC offers over some wall tricks or smashes any day. The fun is in the fight, not the geography. At least, as DMC goes. Besides, you're comparing a gladiator style military shooter to a free form sword/gun slinging high speed hack and slash. Cover is integral to shooters, even if there isn't a button for it people will always need to hide behind things. As for DMC, there's no aspect of the environment that would radically change gameplay besides the odd slam into a brick wall. Other than that, it's sword fighting, and not the kind you see in Pirates of the Carribean.

Garro

@Kuren: Congratulations! You "Get It".

108

...yet Asia still can't get enough of Dynasty Warriors and its ilk.

Chef

@Kuren: Agreed on God of War, but that isn't to say the game didn't have it's own special flavor of monotony (combat).

If only an action game got both things right. *crosses fingers on NG2*

*or Bayonetta, but that's so far away*

Xiedo

@SunnydaZe10: I certainly hope Bayonetta has nothing in common w/The Sims. That's a completely different genre. Bayonetta is to be a 3D ACTION game not a 3D BORE YOURSELF TO SLEEP game i.e. The Sims.

Spartan1308

3d action games haven't evolved... That's okay, at least the relevant series are getting high distinction scores.

It's not like the fighting/shooting/adventure genre has evolved much either.

Ultrasinc

@SG79: yeah dude, i straight up know he didn't work on DMC4.

i'm just saying -- it's a relevant game to this topic. you know.

my point is that the future of 3D action games probbbbbbbbably has something to do with the context of the action, not the execution of the "plot" or the layout of the "puzzles".

what i'm saying is that i am, overall, pleased -- and cautiously optimistic -- that kamiya is acknowledging the idea-drought in 3D action games; and i take it as more of a gentle nudge at DMC than a jab at ninja gaiden 2.

which i'm looking forward to, by the way!

108

@SolCross: They both taste the same!

sander_dutch

People, Bayonetta is sooo not Devil May Cry!

SHE is fighting ANGELS with guns ON HER FEET!

See?

boopadoo

I think one of the problems of DMC and my heavy skepticism of Bayonetta is that it lacks a pretty integral part of modern "next gen" games; emotion. Gears of War although was very light in story, and yes had very few tear jerking moments, the game wanted you to feel a certain way from scene to scene. The way how enemies closed in on you, introduced, how you overcame with "X" weapon, how the dialogue tied into that, etc. These were all examples of how the game told it's "story". Devil May Cry 4 didn't do that at all for me. I went from place to place without much reason for doing what I was doing, and my actions didn't reflect much on the story. I felt truly from a 3rd person perspective as I beat up enemies, then I watched my character watch a cutscene; my experience failed to evolve with the game and story. I think a really good example of a game that does this WELL, is God of War 1 and 2. A lot of people imo see the game as a shallow beat em up where you play as a muscular guy who is really angry. Whereas I see it as the game places you alongside Kratos, provides the motive of why you want to help this guy or figure out why you should help him. Every time you go through a series of puzzles, you know that before you got into the mess, there's a reason you're doing those puzzles, and at the end of it all, you're given your resolution. Without those things, a game can lack motivation and feel monotonous where you're doing things because you know it's the only way to progress the game.

That's the large beef I had with DMC4 or few other action games out there, they're lacking in so many areas specially motivation or emotion. I really hate it when they keep trying to pour more complication onto the game system when they can't even come up with better level design that's compelling or emotive.

Kuren

I'm too focused on that wonderful picture.

SolCross

@Brian Ashcraft: Ah, that's embarrasing. I heard the same studio who did DMC 1 worked on 4, so if he worked 1 then ya know... Cause assumptions are just awesome.

Now that I've actually been to the website: Whoa, friggan badass. So, shit, if NG and DMC as they are now aren't "pushing the limits" for him, holy hell. I mean, developers promise this and that all the time but if he designed the original... I have enough scant evidence to assume, that this will be awsome.

Garro

@xpoomasterx:

They just have some other team develop it like DMC2, 3, and 4 perhaps?

SG79

I disagree with this, even if we were going to argue this, I would have to say NG would be THE action game, not DMC, which I love to.

D Mitsuki

@Brian Ashcraft: how could Capcom refuse the $$$$$ they'll make off of DMC5 if he does make one

xpoomasterx

@Brian Ashcraft: Wow man, I don't know how women do it. I become like a useless flesh-sack when I vomit for more than a day.

VileMethoD

@VileMethoD: Ah! That's for asking. Still barfing, just less. ;)

Brian Ashcraft

Wow it is so refreshing for a a game creator to question innovation and praise their own game as an innovator. Hideki Kamiya you are one unique guy!

Weasel3689

He does have an excellent track record. Knowing that, I look forward to seeing more of the game.

P.S. Bash, wife all better now? Hope things have finally calmed down on your end of the pond. You might not be preggo, but doesn't mean you don't share that stress, that's for sure.

VileMethoD

Honestly one could argue his statement applies to most game genres, not just action. That doesn't mean there haven't been some great games, because there certainly has, but most of those great games haven't brought a lot of new content that can be considered evolutionary.

Replica23

He certainly knows how to set himself up for a fall, considering it doesn't sound as if he's got a clue what the plan is.

Xiedo

I truly respect this guy. Who else could create a side-scroller with a hero wearing a pink scarf and have it be a hit?!

That being said, I feel the real innovation which needs to be made in games is to STOP killing things and find OTHER ways to engage the player. (The Sims is a good example)

This will be the BIGGEST challenge . . .

SunnydaZe10

@Terance!: BA ZING!

I don't know about this Bayonetta but then again i didn't really know how Devil may Cry 1 would of turned out.

Raziel Dune

And you all got mad at Itagaki...

D Mitsuki

I think most of us can agree Bayonetta sounds/etc awesome...

However:

Let's just hope Bayonetta 2 doesn't suck.

But, if it does, Bayonetta 3 will be amazing, and the re-release even better.

However, 4 will introduce a new, boring, set of N/PCS

Terance!

@108:

As mentioned, he didn't work on DMC4. Gears is a far cry from the modern action genre occupied by NG, God of War, and DMC.

While I agree that DMC4's puzzles felt disjointed (some of Nero's missions were very boring), the genre needs the basic adventure layout with some puzzles. Otherwise, we're looking at one giant Bloody Palace or survival mode of a game. That would be boring, even if the combat is great.

Gears borrowed from RE4, and RE5 seems to be taking some elements from that. The rumored cover system and co-op that is.

SG79

@SG79: To be fair, though, there is not much that can be said about a short CG trailer (in regards to Bayonetta). It seems like it may be in the same vein as Devil May Cry, though.

Yuki

So Kojima, how's that Japanese game maker humility going? :P

Nirolak

@Brian Ashcraft:

Not only that, he hasn't worked on DMC since he wrapped production on the PAL version of the original in 2001.

The 1Up interview with him in 2006 was very interesting to say the least. He thought he was getting fired to taking so long to finish a project.

SG79

I guess this guy hasn't spoken to Itagaki.

Kado

Ehm fix the front page article, you can't see what hideki says...and why i can't upload pictures anymore?

LuiStrokes

Innovation or not, I'm looking forward to Bayonetta. More action games are never a bad thing.

Maldron

@Gospel X:

How so? The brief footage we saw of Bayonetta certainly didn't scream "DMC clone", and Kamiya doesn't like creating sequels, even spiritual ones. Although he did want to make DMC2 but was denied working on the series after the original (for the reason mentioned prior.. he was supposed to develop RE4).

@Krimmson:

It does sound like he's downplaying the efforts of his former employer with the notion that DMC has been stagnant. He hasn't spoken much before, but some of his comments have been a bit odd. Some funny though, like how he took kids' feedback about VJ too seriously that he got pissed off.

SG79

Hopefully he's played Gears of War, and thought very seriously about how to apply "simple mechanics" and "actual level design" to a 3D action game.

The recent Devil May Cry could stand to learn a hell of a lot from games like Gears.

The very fuckin' least they can do for a game like Devil May Cry is cut out all the attempts at "puzzles". As-is, it's just "walk into a room, fight some dudes, the door opens, walk into the next room, there's a locked door, a chest appears behind you, open it up, get the key, open the door, enter the room, fight some dudes, the next door opens, go into the hall" . . .

The connections between the fights need some serious work.

I'm hoping that Kamiya and his Mighty Men are going to try to make Bayonetta, for starters, a game where you fight while moving through the stage.

That'd be a good start at unearthing a "new idea".

108

@Garro: How could he be planning DMC5? He doesn't work for Capcom.

Brian Ashcraft

Hey, if this man can produce even MORE of what I love about DMC's gameplay, I'm all for it. I'm impressed with how it looks and plays as it is, becuase it's one of the only games where you actually play what you see in cutscenes, more or less. It's just damn satisfying to play, and it looks amazing; especially with DMC 4's top notch character animation.

When you have Dante's 5 modes, 3 guns, and 3 swords, and devil trigger, and they're all changeable on the fly, and they all have their own moves, you gut some crazy, ass, gameplay. If you can master Nero's instant fuel injection... same thing.

I hope this means he's planning on DMC 5.

Garro

I don't doubt that the man with a great record (RE2, DMC, VJ, and Okami) will create something worth waiting for.

The evolution of the action genre that he deemed nonexistent since DMC1 is certainly debatable. I think NG's blend of great AI, and depth comparable (but not identical) to a 3D fighter might be considered evolution. Though one can argue that it's a different style.

I'm anxious to see how Bayonetta turns out. Word of warning though, it might miss its deadline. VJ aside, his other games suffered from overhauls that ticked off Capcom management. Hell, DMC started off as RE4.

SG79

Is this being pointed at Tomonobu Itagaki and his Ninja Gaiden series?

Krimmson

Honestly looks like he's returning to 3D action games to...make basically the same game all over again. Not that I mind it too much, since I greatly enjoyed the Devil May Cry series. Just saying that if he says he's returning because there was no innovation over the past seven years, he's not providing much himself.

I'm disappointed that the game will not be coming out on the Wii. I'm also not shocked.

Gospel X

@Ashurahori: Everything you just said amounts to, "I don't understand subtext." I can't teach you story analysis for you.

@Kuren: Didn't do a good job, to you, becuase you missed out on important details (a lot of them). I'm not saying Gears was piss poor because it isn't Shakespeare, I'm saying it's just flat out piss poor and there are a wealth of B action stories that to a better job of setup and character motivation. I think DMC has most of what you're asking for, it just takes a greater suspension of disbelief, and setting aside pretentiousness (I mean in general, not you personally).

As for level design... I'm sure developers could focus on that, but the core of action games comes form combos etc, and level design just isn't as important. It's like asking the same thing from a fighter, unless you're getting into puzzles.

Garro

I find the fact that the windex is the same color as the gatorade rain disturbing.... And he kinda has a point. There's been a change in graphics, but the moves and concept is basically the same. Kill bad guys wwith your sword or gun, try to get a high combo, move on to the next place, repeat, bossfight, then kiler tougher bad guys with the same sword and gun.

EnzoMatrix