They want the games locked up so kids can't accidentally get to it. Well that is almost how this is now just about everywhere its not behind a counter but its locked up(there are just as bad books, Music and Movies that are right in the open). You have to ask a clerk to get the game for you at place like Gamestop, Walmart or Target. And place like Best-Buy have theM locked up in boxes that set the alarms off that are very difficult to get the game out. And most place I've been has there registers set to bring up is this person 18 on M rated games.

They can argue till they are blue in the face but unless they are willing to say this is the same for movies music etc they need to STFU cause games are no different and should be treated the same as other media.

At least the gaming populous is getting older so more politician gamers are happening everyday so maybe we can just out live this BS then we can start bitching about something new that is "harming the children". My vote on whats hurting them now is parents.

Konchu

I'd direct the PTC to this (single) mother right here for inspiration: [kotaku.com]
She seems to be doing just fine.

Antiterra

Yes... every store in the US could lock up violent games like porn, then lock up any movie above PG-13, and then any CD with explicit lyrics...

...and then become even MORE the laughing stock of the world for pointless moral outrage and censorship of pop media. Do you have any idea how much mockery was dished abroad over the Janet Jackson boob incident? That should have been an "oops, sorry. Apparently not tasteful" and then everyone just moves on...

By all means, don't sell GTA to kids, but... talk about overreactions.

fuchikoma

so, at token, we should also keep The Godfather, Good Fellas, Casino, and every season of the soprano's away from the general public's reach as well? because as far as i've seen about %15 in there's nothing in this game worse than any of those other gangster stories.

rmeehan17

"Lock up your daughters, SHOOT your sons!"

PlayerX

@Kralizec:

$60 games vs. $25-$30 DVDs. I don't think it's discriminatory. Stores just take a bigger hit when games get stolen.

SoSure

@drlard: It's true. Previous GTA stuff we'd like them both drive around, but that was about it. And that was entertaining enough.

kingclip

@kingclip: LOL chaos theory - ohhh ian malcom how i love your character

so here is what to do.... the 17 is doing the "immersion" stuff...but the 13 year old is watching it like a movie...the 13yro doesn't have direct involvement with what is happening on the screen....so it's just like a "bad" movie hehehe

drlard

I would not mind a "grown-up" section for "R" rated games as long as music, movies and books get the same treatment.

Just to dump it on games alone though is not going to work (constitutional rights and such). Either do it properly or not at all.

RPGr

This is ridiculous. Each and every day, "unrated" DVDs are peddled on stores shelves at every major retailer. But, you don't hear anyone complaining about it, even through they usually contain content far worse than what you could find in a game like GTA. It's a sickening display of a double-standard where the video game industry is still viewed as a "toy" specifically targeting children.

ChrisInSF

And how does the PTC feel about R rated movies? Should they be kept under lock and key? What about TV-MA shows? Should they be made on demand only? Requiring a pin number to access? To single out one form of media shows ignorance of that media. It shows a blind fear and lack of understanding of entertainment media as a whole. Books, movies, albums, and TV shows all portray the same things being portrayed in GTA IV, but the PTC only seems interested in locking up the video games, and I'd like to know why.

I'm not saying that any of the above examples SHOULD be given to kids - parents should look out for what type of media their children are consuming. Legislations proposed by groups like the PTC are unconstitutional, and, frankly, childish. To jump straight to attacking something you don't fully understand is a short sighted way to go through life.

What The Geek

@drlard: Yeah, we're not gonna hide it or anything -- it's more of can they play it. For the 13 year old no -- but for the 17 year old -- maybe -- but that's hard to do without the 13 year old around. Conceptually, the decisions are easy. In the real world, not so much thanks to variables that are unique to every siutuation. I blame choas thoery.

kingclip

Nice to see Kotaku is sensitive to the current news. I mean why not go the whole hog and put "Lock up your children and rape them (or just their games".

AstrayPenguin

@Cruithne:
agreed, I actually think that the big problem here is that a lot of parents still think videogames are for kids. Meaning that EVERY videogame should be for kids.

nikolaj

I worked at the GTA launch at Game Stop and so many parents bought the game for their kid after I told them this game is not appropriate for kids below 17 due to intense violence etc etc

Parents just smile and say "little billy gets what little billy wants"

Agemosu

@Mokona:

It's open 24 hours too (in the US at least. 3:00 am Shotgun sale.

DELICIOUS BUNNY

@Mokona: you people? who you callin "you people"!!

j/k

we dont have problems because they sell guns at wal-mart.

we have problems because there is nothing wrong with selling guns at wal-mart but selling music that says fuck at wal-mart is a problem (according to wal-mart).

Derigor

It seems to me that when an objectionable game comes out it is the same song and dance. Sure GTA isn't for kids, but an M rating doesn't equal an X rating and neither is it equivalent to a weapon, unless you plan on bludgeoning someone with the games case... which seems a waste to me.

By the logic here R rated and who knows maybe even PG-13 movies should be locked up because there is an age demographic that isn't allowed to purchase it. I haven't seen that in any stores, nor do they seem to be addressing it in their rhetoric. So to me this seems like a blatant double standard, not to mention an easy way out for parents who would rather have the government step in when parents with common sense and interest in their children would suffice.

Dullshimmer

Tobacco, cigarettes, and porn? I agree with keeping it behind counters, that's what they do at my EB and Wal-Mart, so no big deal there. In fact, I'm suprised to hear that some stores don't. HOWEVER, here in Canada (not too sure how things are in other parts of the world) tobacco, cigarettes and porn are not allowed to advertise in magazines, tv, bilboards, or any via any other method that I'm aware of.

I worry that comparing a game like GTA to these types of thing might also earn it a ban on advertising.

breakblossom

I know that this does not happen everywhere games are sold, but almost everywhere you do want to buy a game, the games section is under lock and key (wal-mart) or behind a counter (gamestop). The purpose there may mostly be to curb shoplifting, but none the less it is the case. What i DON'T see are the R-Rated movies at Wal-Mart and other stores being put under lock and key. They are right out there in the open.

Kralizec

I think the games should get a fair trial first.

MisterSleep

@kingclip: it depends on the kid....

if you find that the child is mimicking everything he or she sees and seems a little strange after watching some violent type stuff....yeah keep them away...

but i've been playing violent games since i was around 10....i'm relatively well adjusted *shifty eyes* LOL

drlard

"I know I was a blithering idiot when I was 16, and most people were"

Speak for yourself, buddy... maybe 10 years of reflection isn't enough, but I wouldn't call myself a "blithering idiot" at 16. I was certainly at least bright enough to know the difference between video game violence and real-world violence. I'd be hard pressed to name any 16-year-old incapable of making the distinction. Heh... I wonder what this guy did when he was 16?

rannic

I...don't really see the big deal with this.

But I do agree with Absent - movies and television should get the same treatment either way.

Spoony Bard

It's tough. We have joint custody of my girlfriends kids -- ages 13 and 17. We have them for five days and they their dad has them for five days (same town). They're here on Thursday, and we're still not sure what to do about GTA IV being here.

kingclip

@drlard: or maybe a bad series of papercuts from the manual???

drlard

"If you go into your Wal Mart, the guns are not marketed at eye level to children," McKiernan says. "They are not promoted widely and broadly as something everyone should be heading over to the gun aisle to pick up... But the stores are not treating these games as adult products."

yeah...and ya know...the fact you can't kill someone with a game....

unless of course they are making the reference to Hell Raiser where buddy dies by a horrible cd related death....

drlard

Oh geez, get over it. Games aren't that bad. And if you lock them up then do the same for movies and music that appeal to the adult audience.

Unless the game is rated AO there should be no enforcement for it stricter than how we treat unrated or R rated movies.

Absent Blue

The council wants games like GTA IV locked up behind store counters, like cigarettes, tobacco and porn.

I think this might be a good idea, it would once and for all hammer home the message that this is adult entertainment.

Cruithne

Yea, all these soccer parents need to watch out on THEIR END also. It takes two to tango, you can't just sit around on your ass saying "ITS THE GAME INDUSTRY's FAULT".

If you're any good of a parent you'd pay attention to what your kids are doing instead of expecting everyone else in this world to babysit for you.

Expecting the game retailers to counter all methods your children will devise to get their grubby hands on a game that is not suitable for them. Or better yet, expecting the drug dealers to have a conscience and not push drugs to your children.

TWO WORDS: "BAD PARENTING"

Solidsky

I've password-locked "M" rated games on the 360, but I haven't locked the liquor cabinet. I'm a hypocrite!

FuglyFloom

I'm actually for it. It would be great if I could pick up all my "Groceries" in one stop.

Thanks Concerned Parents!

TaggarT6

parents. parents. parents. parents. that is the only key needed here.

avern

@Mokona:
Depends on the Wal-Mart. A lot of them sell hunting rifles.

Guild_Navigator

Its the Parents that should be locked up not the games.

Ryuujin1024

"An unconstitutional law that repeatedly gets thrown out by the courts is not an effective way to empower parents,"

I have to go with this argument, parents please do your part instead of smiling and nodding when the clerk tells you why the game is rated M.

AndrewG009

Wait, they sell guns at Wal-Mart...? No wonder you people have problems.

Mokona

@rannic: but what about the white girl who was 16 and her crackhead of a boyfriend who was 17 who beat the girls 3yr old sister to death and then blamed it on Mortal Kombat

oneasianthug

You can't treat games like porn and cigarettes because they're not. If anything, an M-rated game is closest in similarity to an R-rated movie, and this being the case I would expect them to be treated the same in a logical world.

The second that GTA becomes physically addictive and starts giving players cancer, feel free to institute your silly policies.

UltimatePancakeSensation

"I know I was a blithering idiot when I was 16, and most people were"

I wasn't. And you're obviously still a blithering idiot.

jambe

Hmm... A Radio Shack I went to had GTAIV behind a counter, but that's for shoplifting reasons...

Anyway... Why are guns not a concern at Walmart, while violent entertainment media are? Apparently mental harm is worse than physical harm.

Angryrider

"I know I was a blithering idiot when I was 16, and most people were"

Take that, teenagers!

creid

"McKiernan is frustrated that the ESRB advocates a responsible use of its rating system without lobbying for adoption of these laws"

Wait, the ESA is full of hypocrites because they advocate people reading the labels but they don't want it to be a federal offense for not doing so?

"I know I was a blithering idiot when I was 16, and most people were."

I've got the perfect solution! Let's pass a law that affects only the blithering idiots, and everyone else can ignore it!
People, let's stop with the mentality that children are idiots. I know that people generally get smarter as they get older, but that does not mean that people who are young are not smart (or that people who are old are smart) and can not make informed opinions. I never had a moment of enlightenment on my 18th birthday for that matter either.

"Parents can punish their kids for drinking when they're 15, but we still have laws to keep alcohol out of kids hands to help the parents because they can't be everywhere at every time."

Okay, let's say there was no law against underage drinking. Now a kid can grab a beer at any grocery store, drink it, and throw the bottle away.
Compare that to video games. A kid could go buy a game (which, while common, is not sold everywhere like alcohol), get a TV and console (either at home or at a friend's house), and beat a game in 10 or more hours.
My god, they're right! How can any parent be expected to check up on their kid in that short of a time span!

As much as I agree that kid's shouldn't be playing GTA, I think there are kids mature enough to handle it, and parents who know what they're getting into. Once you start writing laws, you take that choice away.
Here's an idea. Rather than putting games behind glass because you think they're dangerous, how about sorting games by rating? Porn isn't locked up; rather, it's given it's own section. I know parents don't pay attention to ratings, but if it's under a sign that says "mature games" rather than next to Billy Hatcher, I'd say it's really their own fault for not noticing.

Tiber

While I don't agree that they should be locked up and treated like cigarettes and porn, I think the guy's view is quite fair. I especially agree with the last paragraph about information and communication being the right way to go about it. I think that's find and dandy.

As a random thought that popped into my head, and one I'm sure most people have had, can't we just have games separated into sections by genre/type? Or even by rating? That wouldn't be too dissimilar from what they do with books and movies, surely?

StormTec

Anything antifun groups want to do to M games they should do to R movies. As they are essentially the same (although an R movie gets away with more)

WEGGLES90

@dannah: What's that word you mentioned? "No"? Oh, come on, it doesn't even sound like a real word. If you're going to make words up, at least add a couple of syllables so they sound more convincing.

"No", she says. Seriously...

Antiterra

Does this really bother all of you? Would GTA being locked up with a big black plastic cover over the front stop you from going to get the game?

If you are under 17 you shouldn't be playing this game anyway if for no other reason than I don't want to hear your voice on Live.

Lou3000

@kingclip:

Wait until they leave to play it?

J449

Gosh I sure love how everyone expects people to parent for them.

It's called parenting, people. Decide if your kids are able to distinguish between fantasy and reality. They can? Ok, consider letting them play a more mature game.

If they can't, try this simple remedy:

"No."

Stop letting your fucking whining kids manipulate and control you. Learn to say "No."

dannah

And argument I constantly hear is that it's bad parenting to allow your kids to play with mature rated games. I have to disagree.

While I would say that allowing, say, an 8 year old to buy GTA IV would be quite irresponsible, that would be purely based on the fact that most of the satire and humour would most likely be lost on them. A child of that age would only really 'get' the fact that they are killing people.

But in my opinion, a 14 year old could understand more of this, and have enough of a perspective of real world violence and crime for them to appreciate the consequences of actions where it really matters.

To cry out 'BAD PARENTING' if a parent deems a game suitable for their children contrary to a rating boards decision I think misses the point. Of course neglectful parents, ignorant of these ratings are not the people I am talking about. But I feel a GOOD parent is one who knows their children well enough to decide what they should be able to see and do, rather than purely following a rating system.

If you have a child who is well adjusted, responsible and mature about videogames, I don't see why that particular offspring should be denied a violent game, be they 13 or 20.

I feel kids should be given more credit for their responsibility. And to honest, I see almost all ratings boards as pretty much broken. A sixteen year old can have sex, buy themselves a moped and leave their house with their partner to have a baby. Yet the law deems that they may not witness these same events in a film/game until they are 18. What sense does that make?

/end slightly off topic rant. (Laws applicable to UK).

Krondonian

@Rurik: Same, though I was 12.

Pombar

This whole thing is out of proportion. How many of us older players were watching 18 rated movies when we were kids? The vast majority of us stayed in education until we left, got jobs and became (eventually) sensible adults, despite watching things inappropriate for out age groups at the time. It's just sensationalism. Sells newspapers.

mooseman721

They want to prove that these games are marketed to young kids show me the commercials that run for GTA4 during Saturday morning cartoons.

Konchu

@Rurik: Indeed.

My mum knows these sorts of games won't affect me in horrible, horrible ways so she let's me buy them.

Ryumeka

That's fine. Go ahead and lock away the games in the same cases they lock away the "R" rated movies and the music with explicit lyrics in. Ohhh wait! How do you spell hypocrite again?

Nitemare1

I first played GTA3 when I was eleven and have gotten every GTA since on launch day. I am not violent or a criminal, because my mom taught me the difference between virtual and real. Games are what kept me out of trouble, I take out my frustrations on AI or people online.

Rurik

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, skimmed most posts but anyway.

If you're able to take responsibilty of someones life at the age of 16, have your own child, then I'm more than sure you are capable of taking responsibilty of your own life.

If being able to have and look after your own child at 16, shouldn't this technicaly class you as an adult? Therefore age ratings should only extend to the age of 16+.

I wouldn't say it's entirely down to the parents. You can't hold your childs hand every last moment of everyday.

Nearly every child will go off and be deviant in some way like underage drinking. If you tell your child not to play a game that's not intended for their age and they're at a friends house who has the game, I'm 90% sure will play it or at least watch it.

I like mant people on this site play video games a lot. I like, I'm being very tentative with this statement, many people on this site are able to differ between reality and the virtual world's we love to experience whether thats on PC PS series, the Xbox series or Nitendo series of consoles.

I played GTA3 and vice city, however, I didn't go round killing people or even day dream re-enacting anything I saw within those virtual worlds. I will not be buying GT4 and I will most likely not play it either.

While were on GTA4 and the ilk. There is an article of Jack Tompson in a local newspaper of mine. It is a letter sent to Mrs Zelnick, the mother of Mr Zelnick the creator of GTA.
If Bashcraft or anyone reads this and would like me to send in as much of the article, I will be more than willing to type the article out.

danieldrago

Adding a "black" lock won't do anything to prevent kids from getting their hands on the game. Parents still would request the game anyway, and it becomes another expense that does nothing. Very much the same as their group, eats money and does nothing beneficial.

超外人

i gotta be honest, i pulled a tl;dr on the comments on this one because by the time I reached 3/4 of that article I was too pissed off to go further.

I want to see a major retailer that doesn't keep the majority of their games (especially controversial ones like this) locked up? And what, a retail store isn't allowed to show it's stock on the shelf? I guess the world should be perfect and nothing that could even remotely be seen as offensive should be on the shelves

I want to start a non-profit org:

"Gamers against blithering idiot parents who won't accept responsibility"

Anyone else?

Jomo7

Let me get this out of the way; I am 15 years old and will play and beat GTA IV. My favorite games include, Bioshock, Mass Effect, Call of Duty, Gears of War, and Rock Band. Many are rated M. I am not a sociopath. In fact, I am at the top of my class in school, swim, debate, play an instrument, and am fairly normal.

Now that that's said, I find the idea that there should be legal consequences for selling M rated games to children under 17 simply astonishing.

1) ESRB ratings have always been recommendations. They are made with the knowledge that some people below the age rating are mature enough to play the game and some are not. To make a law prohibiting the sale of M rated games to minors treats them as if ALL are immature and unable to handle the content. Teenager are individuals with different levels of maturity.

2) How does turning 17 automatically give one the 'maturity' to handle M rated games. What is the difference between someone who is 16 and 364 days vs. a 17 year old? Is this some magic age that upon crossing, people receive greater knowledge and judgment? Of course, this is absurd. This brings up my next point; what are the objective definitions of when someone is mature enough to play M rated games?

3) Although most people believe that children shouldn't play M rated games, there is no objective reason why they shouldn't. Say a 12 year old is exposed to the violence and sex of GTA IV. Where is the evidence that says that this is bad for his/her health? What makes sex inappropriate for teens? People usually say, "It's just common sense," as if that statement has actual meaning and serves as a valid justification. Having a majority of people believe that so-called 'mature' content is harmful to kids does not make it so. Furthermore, studies such as the one presented in Grand Theft Childhood expressly invalidate this 'common sense' using objective and scientific evidence.

Thus, to outlaw the sale of M rated games to minors would incorrectly classify every single child as immature and unable to handle games like GTA. This policy would incorrectly assume that turning 17 years old gives one the maturity to buy M-rated games on one's own. The argument that M-rated content such as sex and violence is detrimental to the long term health of children is incorrectly justified by 'common sense' while scientific evidence to the contrary is ignored by the public. I recognize that there are already products such as tobacco and alcohol that whose sales are prohibited to minors. However, these products have been scientifically proven to have ill effects on children's health.

The banning of violent video game sales to minors is based on a flawed belief that mature content is unsuitable for children justified by 'common sense' rather than empirical evidence. It would be a violation of the rights of individuals to choose what is best for themselves.

cpmui99

They want games locked up behind counters? Hahahahaha!

kylenalepa

I still think they should card you for M games if it would just shut these people up. Game's still cause no harm to children or adults, yea you are aggresive for the first minute or so after your done with the game from all the excitement but you calm down like any other normal human.

Still in the end of the day the game is rated M, just like the movie is rated R. If you want it all you have to do is bring a parent in to get it for you. Not a very big deal in my opinion, they do the same thing in movie theaters.

ninjikiran

So where's the outcry to put R rated movies behind the counter with the guns, the tobacco, and porn? Where's the cry to put the booze under lock and key? All this is is a bunch of feel-good BS that is like cotton candy, good on flavor, 0 substance.

MrEvil

It's good to know that he was a blithering idiot when he was 16, but I'm not.

ostartero

@Krondonian: Really it is a fine line to walk there but I agree some kids mature faster and some slower so I do not think there is a direct link to a kid playing GTA becoming a real life thug.

Unfortunately there are many parents that spoil there kids and just give them what they want so they can be cool(or as a cheap babysitter). And lets be fair these were the TV raised kids before video games and those set loose.

And I personally do not see that games like GTA teach consequences that much I learned I could out run the police, you get health from prostitutes(not VD's), and if you go on a killing spree they just take your weapons away from you. I'm not saying kids aren't smart enough to see this is satire and not realistic I mean i didnt learn to rip people spines out with Mortal Kombat either I just dont see benefits of having a kid playing this.

But I think the ratings are generally dead on with other medias and a good basic guideline to go by. But the thing is its a parents responsibility to make sure thier kids learn those rights and wrongs there are obviously issues that make these politicians want to blame gaming for these woes(and that I really think that is the underlying point most people are trying to make when they say its bad parenting as in games are not causing the increase in young crime bad parenting is) . We unfortunately live in a world now that many parents don't want to take responsibility and want to point the blame on something else. So if you are not sure if you kid should be playing a game and it has a big M on the box don't buy it for them. It isn't going to hurt them not to play it and they can be taught morels and consequences just fine without it.

Konchu

You lock up alcohol, tobacco and porn? Where do you live? Iran?

little_dragon

@Krondonian: You are absolutely right, except I don't think anyone is attacking those parents who believe their 14 or 16 year old is mature enough to play GTA, but the parents who don't make this value assessment at all.

That's what people decry as bad parenting. The case you presented? Well, only a blithering idiot would call bad parenting.

Oh, and tack alcohol consumption and military service to the age bondoogle mix.

@jambe: Well, most kids were/are. A problem at 16, though, is that the person doesn't feel like a blithering idiot. You need a lot of years to realize that.

I was one. Well, maybe not blithering, but an idiot nonetheless. Chances are I still am and won't notice until the next decade or so.

And that quote is absolutely hilarious in any case :P

Grive

@AngelsPlague: You know who should be fired? My old EB manager. He went to air on TV explaining that he'd never sell GTA to a minor and not a few months later he renegades on this and does just that for the sake of his sales numbers.

Pissed me off. I never sold questionable games to minors (this was when GTA 3 was first released) without parents around (although it was my judgement call as to what was questionable) and when they were i told them in no uncertain terms that while there was no nudity, you could pick-up hookers then beat then after that to get back your money.

I turned away many sales of GTA that way but parents would often come back and buy other games. They were grateful for the honesty.

Plus I enjoyed that mischievous look the kids gave their parents when they knew they were busted (dry smile with a "teehee" after the parents asked if they knew they could do it).

RPGr

I'd like to call for the locking up of advocacy groups in small rooms with padded walls. Anyone want to turn this into an internet whine fest and plea for attention for me? If not, hows about we stop giving these groups the attention they crave?

PlaidNinja

As long as they move all R rated movies to the same cabinet, there will be absolutely no problem in my eyes..

Rask

It is almost always the parents fault. I work at a GameStop and I worked during the GTAIV launch. I can recall about 20+ parents coming in to buy the game with a child standing by their side that was under the age of 13. One of those parents even let their child walk up to the counter and present to me the receipt for pickup and ask for the game while they smiled. When I recite to most parents what a rated M game contains(for simplicities sake I'll only draw on experiences of only GTA[3/4/ViceCity/SanAndreas] games), about 1 in 30 parents is appalled and refuses to buy the game.

I also don't know about other states, but in Massachusetts if a clerk is positively found to have sold a rated M game to a minor, the employee is fired and must pay a 5,000$ fine to the state.

AngelsPlague

I still don't believe violent games have any incident on the inherent violence of an individual.

I must have killed millions of people (in my gaming endeavors. those spaceships in X-Wing must've had small cities inside!)

You'd be hard pressed to find anybody as 'loveable' as I am. Not an ounce of malice. I rarely even raise my voice, let alone hit something. Once I had to kill a rat and I think it traumatized me.

I think the real problem in society is that there always needs to be a scapegoat. It can't simply be because some kid was seriously fucked up that he shot people. It can't. It's always gotta be *something else*.

interstate78

@Krondonian: I do think that lowering the ratings would be a good step forward but I'm not saying that all ratings are stupid. I'm saying that basing laws of ratings is ignoring hard evidence. Age ratings are just recommendations, they don't have to be based off of hard evidence (but they should). They're just average recommendations. Each individual is different and making broad, general recommendations about age if fine. What's not fine is taking these generalizations that aren't always based on evidence and creating laws that people cannot ignore and must abide by.

Much respect to your friend joining the army.

cpmui99

I think the games ratings should be like the movie ratings, just guidelines for what to expect.

hoopesk2

@jedcred: Excuse me, I'm not talking about what's merely said in this article, I am talking about the known, documented history of this particular group, which I've been studying for quite a while -- since before the Janet boob TV kerfuffle. Google them and see.

Gawker has an article today about how they're trying to pressure people into not advertising on rap shows and puts it better than I could: not giving money to black people.

They also object to seeing "teh gheys" on TV, of course.

They seem to be trying a more moderate stance here since their earlier attempts were so blatantly unconstitutional. Wolf in sheep's clothing. Video games being a newer medium, they figure they can use the double standard about them as a wedge to start pushing in on "unsuitable" content.

Evil Tortie's Mom

@cpmui99: Let me say that I agree with you, to a certain degree, but not in all respects.

Firstly, the fact that violence in videogames does NOT corrupt children is a very valid point. As Grand Theft Childhood says, the vast majority of of the so called reports into child/violence links were inconclusive, too small, or simply unscientific. There are never controls to see if an adult with the same experience has the same brain patterns. So I agree with your 3rd point.

However, point 1&2 both say that the ratings are stupid. But there has to be a cut off point somewhere. You can't just base legal restrictions on individual evidence.

So I say lower the ages of the ratings. Make 18 ratings 15, 15 ratings 12, etc. I reckon by taking them down a notch, the ratings would fall more in line with the average level of maturity.

And no, I'm not basing this on studies. So why have one at all?

Well for one, children are innocent. Kids of 8 years old will not have knowledge of crime and violence. When I was 9, my view of the world was very distorted. I wasn't stupid, but after watching so many reports of violence and war on the news, the day I watched the World Trade Center fall, I wasn't shocked. I actually though that stuff like that happened every day.

So by lowering the age ratings I feel that kids can still get the vibrant, pleasant games to appeal more to the imagination. As they get older, darker themes could be introduced.

I have a friend who will join the army in September. We're 16. In a year, he could be sent to fight in the middle east. But he could not buy Gears of War. We need consistency.

Krondonian

Kids can also drive at the age of sixteen, and you're saying giving them control of massive wheeled machines and free roam is less dangerous than a videogame where things like porn are INSINUATED.

Snake726

The ratings are there for a reason, I do wish Parents would obey them and enforce them.
Don't buy your kid any form of media he isn't old enough for, it's not that hard.

Zeouterlimits

What game stores do they shop at? When ever I go to buy a game the ones on the shelves are display only because otherwise they'd attract too much theft. And at Target and Wallmart it's pretty much the same story only the game is behind glass for the same reasons.

Making this into some sort of law would be pointless because the games are already under lock and key for completely different reasons.

And if one of you people knows of a store where the real copies of the game are just left out on the shelves then I want to know where it is, I'll be bringing my backpack/faraday-cage.

Omi

Um, they are locked up in most stores, right? I mean in the cases? Whats the deal.

GrapenutsRobot

Yeah, until they start demanding these "laws" for other media such as the new UNRATED Saw DVD that was displayed and advertised in a nice large displayer in the very front of my local Wal-Mart, I can't back this guy.

This double standard bull-shit pisses me off so bad.

Guitaratomik

Good lord, they want to treat games like drugs. Besides, aren't most video games in one of those cases that you can't open (like at best buy) or they keep them behind the counter already at any game store. Ridiculous.

Captain_Goober

Yes, all regular game retailers keep their games locked up in a back room or behind the counter and only have empty game cases on the shelves. This is to prevent theft, as the gaming industry would prefer to make a profit off of everything (the tobacco industry has been accused of wanting people to steal cigarettes so that they will get a repeat customer after the person has been addicted to nicotine, however it is unlikely that Rockstar Games would receive a repeat customer buying another copy of GTA IV, regardless of whether or not video games are addictive). Wal-Mart will also have GTA IV locked up in a glass case until it gets reduced to the eventual 20 dollar Greatest Hits edition two years from now, so you can all whine then.

Baramos

I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction, unless there's a mass misunderstanding to think someone's trying to make an impossible law that somehow restricts kids from playing the game at all... these laws just restrict kids from buying (and in this case, stealing) them without parental supervision.

cybereal

One word, "do you have any ID on you" Second of all, the parents will just buy the game for their kids anyway. Hell I know mine did when I was young.

Flawless101

I can't remember the last time I went into a game retailer that didn't have every single game regardless of it's rating secured behind the counter. Anyone else?

If we're gonna prosecute retailers for marketing these games to children, do we get to sue network & cable television outlets for airing GTA commercials, too?

stranger

@Evil Tortie's Mom

There is a distinction between asking parents to take a more active role and banning content completely. What you're doing is using the exact same fearmongering tactics as the other side. This article has yet to even suggest that any content should be banned; it simply reports that a group of people is asking for it to be treated in a way more appropriate to its content, much as other adult content is treated.

@cpmui99
I completely understand what you're saying about the small distinction between 16 and 17, but that is the flawed system under which all like content is judged; until we find a better way of judging someone's maturity, this is the way things work.

Also, by using this system, it's not working against mature 16-year-olds; it is protecting the 10 and 12 year olds and others in those age groups. It's a safe system, and like all safe systems, someone has to sacrifice a little bit so the general target can benefit. Come up with a system that lets my very mature 15 year-old cousin drink, smoke, and drive while protecting everyone from all the immature 15 year-olds and I'll hear you out.

jedcred

You hear that 16 year olds? You are a bunch of fucking idiots. Learn from Gavin McKiernan. Stop living and be scared of everything. then you'll be smart.

Like Gavin McKiernan.

heretrix

I'm sorry, but I don't see an issue with this point of view. He puts it very plainly in his comparison with alcohol and availability of parents:

"Parents can punish their kids for drinking when they're 15, but we still have laws to keep alcohol out of kids hands to help the parents because they can't be everywhere at every time."

Same thing applies here. If we force negligent parents to take an active role, at least they're involved in the process. Much the same way, parents can get alcohol for their children, but they MUST DECIDE, one way or the other.

I'll wait here until the "responsible parents" start complaining about the inconvenience of accompanying their children to buy certain games. If they're responsible parents, they probably won't be the ones complaining...

Also, in regards to the loss of taxpayer money to enforce this situation, again, we go back to the alcohol question: are we wasting money enforcing those laws as well, since kids can get alcohol in most homes, or at their friends' houses? Alcohol and gaming don't have the same effects (physical or psychological), sure, but there is some underlying reason that "adult content" is for, well, adults.

jedcred

@fuchikoma: The PTC IS (are) the people who did the hullaballoo over Janet's boob. When someone analyzed all the letters that were sent in, turned out all of them were generated by the PTC.

They basically want all TV, movies, games, music to be controlled to their standards, that of right-wing nutball Christians.

No skin, no sex, no violence, no "bad" words. Basically they want the 1950's back. White men running everything, women in the kitchen, minorities invisible.

Evil Tortie's Mom

As someone who works at GameStop the biggest problem I find is that whenever I ask a parent if they're ok with the M rating they say "not really, but what else is there".

Parents just assume that there are no alternatives to violent video games, or that they for some reason don't have a choice regarding what they buy for their kid. Yeah, they might get it from someone else but at least make it harder if you really don't want them to have it, and if you can find suitable alternatives they probably won't even care.

Friedgold89

"I know I was a blithering idiot when I was 16, and most people were," he said.

^ Yeah, I guess the effect didn't wear off.

googleguru

What about R-Rated movies. Many of them have tons of nudity but you don;t see those locked behind the counter.

KM91

A bit of a sensationalist article title, there, Leigh.
The Parents' Television Council is at least respecting games more than some other organizations do. I'm not saying I agree with putting all M-rated titles off shelves and behind counters at all, but perhaps a less extreme version of the same concept would be a good idea for most stores. Obviously, proper parenting and control over what one's kids are playing is the way to go, and massive governmental regulations are only going to hurt games as a creative medium. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if I were in charge of a game store, I'd categorize and position the games by rating mores o than anything else, not that this group is in the right.

Blah8

I agree that they should be locked up, but only if AO games can actually be sold at retail locations, then we can get something that pushes the envelope that much more. However the problem is that this rests with the parents as it's been said probably a billion times before on the internet.

The problem with taking it out of eye level and all that nonsense is that the kids are still going to know about the game. GTA IV was announced about 2-3 years ago and I've been waiting ever since. Not to mention every game magazine, newspaper, tv commercial, and radio show has talked about this game which is advertising. So if you were truly take it out of the view of kids you'd have to ban them from all those mediums, thus resulting in a censored nanny state like Britain.

Parents, if a game has a GIANT 'M' on the front of it don't fucking buy it for your 12 year old. Buy it for yourself and play it in secret ;-)

phimuskapsi

@jedcred:
"Come up with a system that lets my very mature 15 year-old cousin drink, smoke, and drive while protecting everyone from all the immature 15 year-olds and I'll hear you out."

Drinking and smoking have been proven to have detrimental health effects, unlike video games. Creating legal punishments for selling video games to minors his an entirely different issue.

Why should the freedoms of the 'mature' 15 and 16 year olds be sacrificed for the 'safety' of the ten and twelve year olds? Also, as I've mentioned, what evidence demonstrates that violent games are endanger young children?

cpmui99

If you want to get technical, all games are locked up. at GS, the games are in a slip in a drawer that has a lock on it. At Walmart it's behind locked glass, so I have no idea why these guys are *****ing about it.

Amazon_Chris

I got to get my copy quick.

Ulquiorra Schiffer

Ya know? If this was something where the little tyke didn't have to go HOME to play it, and could, like cigarettes, alcohol, or porn, consume the product w/o BEING IN HIS HOUSE Then I could sorta understand the argument. (not saying I agree, just sorta understand). But seeing as this game isn't exactly something you can sneak into the bathroom at school or w/e, I don't exactly see the point. This game is only really playable with the parents apparent permission. Parents should KNOW what their kids are playing.

GnatB

good luck with that...

...while I keep buying online....

axiomatic

If anything, locking things up and putting them out of reach only creates more of a mystique about the product in question. Knowing you're not supposed to have it makes you do even more to make sure that you do have it.

rob2112

Wow, I can only echo the comments of my fellow Europeans... your age limits aren't enforced by law? And you sell guns in supermarkets?! Amazing.

I don't mean to come across as anti-American, I am honestly staggered at both of those things. Sorry if I've misread the article/comments.

purplegeneral

Ok as a UKer, I can safely say this guy would have no airtime over here.

But over in the USA...where you can buy guns in supermarkets, and the age limits on media arent enforced by law?

That is why this guy gets airtime.

CanaryWundaboy

locked up porn? thats a new one.

Nest

The guns at Wal-Mart are not any further out of eyeshot of children than GTAIV, which is behind that plastic barrier that needs to be unlocked by a surly worker with a huge yellow smiley face plastered to his back if you want to purchase the game. The shells for the rifles, etc. at Wal-Mart are actually right around knee to waist level of your average 5-year-old. So I really don't get what this PTC guy is talking about, but that makes sense as I really don't get the PTC in general.

Sloopydrew

Maybe he was a blistering idiot when he was 16 years because HE IS a blistering idiot. I was 15. I played Mortal Kombat. I WAS AND AM FINE! I am an example! Kids are not stupid! Geez!

Xcite79

@Fitz Rhapsody:

What is on the cover that warrants a "black plastic sleeve?" All that would do is make kids more interested in seeing what's behind the "curtain." The cover is "PG" rated, at worst.

Sloopydrew

I actually think locking it behind the counter is a good idea. Or at least packaged in a black plastic sleeve, like adult magazines.

Fitz Rhapsody

Why does anyone have a problem with this for M games in general? Seriously, I don't have an issue with this.

frobishlumpkin

I don't see how gamers can keep arguing amongst themselves when wackos like these are trying to sulley our fine obsession. Instead of massacaring each-other, we should get a PS3 (things' heavy) and clunk it down on Jack Thompson's noggin. If there are any smaller-framed weirdps, a Wii or 360 would do just fine. Rise up, I say!!

Jac21

Sam Goody's leaves their porn out with just a little cover over the first one. Little kids are always over there (I mean it is right next to the anime section at my Sam Goody's).

stetsonblade

Good thing the Special Edition comes w/ a lock box :)

Proto_Man

ok i just figured it out if gta 3 came out in 2001 then i was probably 13 when i first played it and ive never shot somebody, robbed a store, nor even been in an actual fist fight, so there's at least anecdotal proof that video game violence does not cause real world violence. In your face advocacy groups!

smuckersisgood

They'll have to have a really big cabinet to fit all the M-Rated games and all the R-Rated movies inside! Oh? He doesn't want the R-Rated movies locked up to?

Well then, he's just another one of those crack pots who thinks that just because games are a little more interactive than movies and books; they have some special power that will turn choir boys into serial killers.

robinandtami

Parents need to take a more proactive role in the development and social activities of their children, plain and simple. There is a rating system inplace which recommends what age group a game is for with a brief reason why. If a parent is buying their child something it is there sole responsibility to know what kind of product they are buying and no one else's. Parents need to educate themselves on this subject and that is also the responsibility of the parent(s).

Here in Metro Vancouver most retailers either have all their games behind the counter (EB Games) or in a locked cabinet (Wal-Mart and Superstore), the rest have them in security cases. It has been this way for years now but mostly because of theft. It makes little difference. Parents still regularly buy their children mature games.

The onus is one them and now one else.

Replica23

Yes, put them behind store shelves in locked cabinets. Just like the rated R movies. Oh wait.....

Ajh

So I played my first GTA at the age of 14. Does that mean I should have gone and killed 5 people already? I should probably get started with that. I don't want the PTC to be wrong in thinking that all 16 year olds are "blithering idiots."

TwilightKing

I'm 20, and my dad is still cautious of what games I bring into the house. But that's up to him: it's his house, his rules and my brother will be 17 in a month. I happen to think he can be a little strict, but at least he's being a PARENT and never let me play just anything I wanted to as a child. Fortunately I've never been much into the violent game scene, although I do love my Gears of War :) Never played Counterstrike or GTA though, nor do I feel much of a pull to. So he's never had to worry about things like that to begin with.

Probably the only game he hasn't wanted me to get was Condemned. But he knows the only reason I haven't yet is because all I have is the xbox in the dorm. The 360 has to be kept at home.

Kovitlac

So if these games are "bad" for children, what about hamburgers. GTA might make you violent, but McDonalds will make kids fat and have strokes! We should lock up the Hamburglar!

ChimDeathmonkey

Just thinking about my town - you can buy porn in the newsagents, i's down by the music magazines. It may not be hardcore stuff, but it's still porn. Also, just about every Irish supermarket has an aisle for alcohol. So since we're not keeping those locked away, why GTA?

MajorMcMuffin

Advocacy Groups Want Games Locked Up    @ninjikiran:    I was carded in North Carolina when I bought God of War. I was 22 at the time I believe.    The problem is the laws vary from state to state. And grouping games by rating isn't that bad of an idea. Like you said, anything to get them off of our backs.Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

AlbionSilenus

Here is whats wrong with parents. They try and hide all that has been deemed bad or innapropriate. Well if you remember when you were a kid didn't it catch your interest to know why these things were hidden from you? Didn't some of you go sneaking around in your dad's closet to find his stash of playboys, guns, cigars? It starts with parenting. Now I don't show my kids playboys but there are things that if I invest the time to explain certain things to them and answer questions they have, it helps take away the curiousity they can get if you're not around. Parents don't talk to their kids anymore nor do they listen. They let TV babysit or tell them they are to young to understand. That is such a bad thing to say to your kid. It's like telling Spudd Webb he can't play B-Ball because he is too short. Home boy won a dunk contest. Invest in your kids minds and it will help build trust between each other. Gaming starts with parenting.

fokin_pikey