M games are suggested towards 17 year olds. AO are for 18 year olds.

The only way a child can get a M game is if their parent bought it for them...

Sailorcancer

I know three people that got DUI's. Thankfully they didn't kill anyone. All three have never touched a video game in their lives. They are alcoholics who didn't know how to make a correct choice.

I get what MADD is trying to say, but once again, to attack a particular video game and not the many movies/tv shows that feature people drinking and driving (or drugs and driving:harold and Kumar) shows that they are trying to do this for media coverage because GTA is such a high profile game.
MADD, actually have someone in your organization play the game. Don't hear about it from someone else. Also, create a campaign for all forms of entertainment, not just videogames.

This is so ridiculous that it makes them look bad instead of getting across a good message.

btw: @El Patricko you are hilarious.

trina

@LongDarkBlues: Yeah, there's no response forthcoming. They just wanted a chance to spew their idiocy forth at a convenient and popular target.

Drunk driving is obviously stupid and dangerous, but MADD does not care about reduction of harm from drunk driving. They are frothing at the mouth, stark-raving-mad prohibitionists. If everyone in the country used alcohol responsibly and no one drove drunk, the MADD weirdos would still wet the bed in horror because people were drinking in the first place. They're on record as trying to get states to reduce DUI thresholds to below .08% BAC, even as study after study shows that drivers are already not significantly impaired at those levels.

Not that anyone didn't see through this particular charade of theirs. Just know that MADD has morphed from a mission of harm and threat reduction to complete fundamentalism over the 30 years they've been around. This ain't yer momma's MADD anymore.

teeth7

MADD, you suck!

It's just a video game and there is no connection of reality in a video game! Damn those bitches trying to affect the video game industries. I'm not saying that what they're doing is wrong, but to bitch about a video game!?

Now that's just wrong, know your place...

Know your place...

ultimate920

@What The Geek: Basicly, but now there trying to use it as a way to kill games they disaprove of, and I can safley say GTA anything doesn't make kids violent, I'm 15 and play violent games all the time, I do MMA and would never randomly beat the shit out of sombody and laugh because of it, and most of my friends who play violent games are the same way, if you play a game and then do a violent act of what you saw in the game, your problems run deeper then just playing GTA(x)

D Mitsuki

I wish they would released the statistics on the amount of people killed or injured in car crashes every year due to plain stupidity.

jabedoben

After i went to get drinks with LJ, I got into a car, and the cops were immediately on my tail... that was one f'd up car chase until Niko sobered up. The camera shakes too damn much, if anything it definately discourages drunk driving.

Should've taken the taxi as the game recommended...

TheHun

Rabble rabble! Let's all get mad over something that has little bearing on most of us! It's kotaku tradition after all I guess.

First, unless you're 17 there's no reason to be complaining about this. You have the game don't you?? Then shut up and play it and quit acting like a group to prevent nearly-retarded teens from killing themselves and others is infinging on your rights. Because they're not.

I think this game should be Adult Only, but more importantly I think the ESRB should merge M and AO into one tweaked rating or reform their system because it's obviously too much of a contention point.

7ucky

I don't get the anger. The drunk driving in GTA IV isn't pleasant at all. It is not going to encourage anyone to drink and drive unless they like the screen swaying all over the place. On top of that it is incredibly easy to get busted in GTA IV. It's hardly encouraging anything.

I know MADD are to drink what PETA are to animals (bordering on militant and irrational), but one would hope that they would spend a bit of time driving in the game drunk and see how fun the game makes it.

DrXym

@El Patricko:

You missed a great opportunity to say, "I'm Dr. Steve Brule....for your health!" right after your broads comment.

pickleprince

So, if they're shitting a brick about this why haven't they freaked out about Family Guy? More than one episode has jokes relating to drunk driving, and I've heard nothing from MADD about that. I really respect the organization and their goals, but this is just the same old straw man argument dressed up in a new outfit. Nothing to see here people, move along.

天水

Just sent this to Kelley Tway listed as the publisher of this article, hoping to inform her that very often lying to young people can backfire in a spectacular fashion, remember Reefer Madness? Entitled Credability:

and your lack thereof.

Dear Kelley,

I write firstly to tell you that I agree with your message, Drunk Driving is a pointless and dangerous crime. However your recent press release on the game Grand Theft Auto 4 has, I believe, damaged your message. Credibility is big part of any campaigners message, as no mater how big or small the lies you tell are, the public, especially the youth of the world you are desperately trying to reach, will see straight through you unless you are telling the truth at all times. Please stop trying to jump on the bandwagon of attacking GTA and Rockstar, without first completing some research. If you, or any of your researchers had played the game they would realize that it is not compulsory to drive drunk in the game, in fact another character in the game suggests that your character is not safe to drive and recommends you take a taxi home. Even if you do decide to drive drunk in the game, your vision becomes blurred and driving becomes next to impossible, surely this will only help to drive home your message.

This story has recently been printed on kotaku.com a highly regarded video game blog, and I believe they have also emailed you to gain a response. Thanks for your time, please continue your valid message, but not at the expense of my favorite pastime

LB

bennett

@Asper: The AO rating would get the game removed from the shelves of most retailers, and kicked off of the 360 and PS3, so it would kind of make a little bit of a difference if they were successful. Having said that, I doubt they'll be successful.

What The Geek

This is what happens when activist groups run out of stuff to do and need to justfy everyone on the group still getting paid.

catdogpigduck

Children shouldn't be driving cars in the first place, let alone drunk. Even if the game was rated E for Everyone, children still wouldn't be able to legally purchase liquor or drive cars (unless they're European). I don't see the problem here.

exolstice

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2:
As far as I know, it's always been 18, however, for the most part, it's a rating reserved for games that basically qualify as interactive porn, so I can see where you got the idea that it was 21 from.

What The Geek

This disappoints me. I have a lot of respect for MADD and their goals, especially since I know someone that has driven drunk and, subsequently killed someone. However, the fact they're showing all the knowledge of this as if they got this information through a friend of a friend's cousin's niece really bums me out, as it devalues them.

That said, what difference would an AO rating make that an M rating wouldn't? The content is still there, the age difference is a year... This little campaign, no matter the outcome, really isn't going to warm anyone to their cause.

Asper

Arg...
Niko says something like, "I've had to much to drink, I'd be stupid to try and drive!" when he's drunk. When I heard that and got out of the car and called a cab.
...I mean come on, I'm not stupid.

RedRust

You get 'em Crecente!

parasiteartist

@Kamus: I don't really get the whole sex argument, how is showing a boob on a tv or a movie bad? 5 year old timmy probally sucked them anyway till he was 3...

D Mitsuki

@D Mitsuki: MPAA =/= ESRB*

D Mitsuki

Some people are fucken dumb...

Ok, at firt i tried to understand why people were so upset about sex in movies and not that upset about violence.
Then i thought "well, maybe it's cause the boobs of the actress are real, and the blood isn't."

Turns out.. NO
In videogames they repudiate naked pixels to my amazement.
(not that I have a problem w/ naked boobs to begin with, but that was what i thought)

Now these assholes are concerned about drunk driving pixeles running over other pixeles?
Fuck them, Fuck them in the ear.
Videogames don't claim to be real life.
or tell you to go do shit like that in real life.

Kamus

Shouldn't GTAIV's portrayal be a good one? Not only, as the post says, does the game encourage you to take a taxi, but anyone who tried to drive anyway learned really quickly that it's near impossible. Hell, it's hard enough to walk...I've gotten some good laughs out of watching Niko and Roman stumble around.

GundamAC197: Proud new Wii60 Owner!

@dbushik: Reason why MPAA =/=, movies have to be rated to be in a theater, movies bought on a dvd do NOT, (i.e. porn) a game sold in the same manner as a dvd HAS TO BE rated, you cant just make a censored version and then the unrated edition

D Mitsuki

Yeah there's a drunk driving mission. And it's fucking hard! You drink a small amount of booze and you're completely incoherent and unable to balance, your vision's fucked, and pretty much everything that happens happens to make you fail. I'd say it does a pretty good job of discouraging you to drive drunk. If you drink & drive in GTA IV, and take it's representation of drunkenness to heart, then I think you'd be pretty damn scared of attempting to do anything while drunk.

Strange Bedfellows

If anyone wants to respond directly, they have the release up on their blogspot article: [maddonline.blogspot.com]

half-beast

"Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."

And shooting police officers in the face isn't? Shut the fuck up and stay out of our games, MADD.

ca$h

@deathletter: i sorta agree with your sentiment, but they have rights too. i'd actually prefer a filter that wouldn't allow madden fanatics to join my games online

kw4k

Yikes@symeon6: Yike! I make it sound as if i drink and drive all the time. I don't. I had one scary experience. Luckly no one was hurt. What i meant to say is that it is easier for a rational, well adjusted human being to drink and drive than it is for them to go in on a shooting rampage.

That's why MADD is asking for the game to be rated differently. They are not pulling a JT and trying to get the game banned, they just want to slow its access to minors.

I'm not sure where i sit on this one.

symeon6

Yes, because driving drunk should make a game AO but not killing people.

twesterms 2nd

@Dakobah: Everybody pretty much said it, but I'll repeat. Yes, everyone here is either that age or over it, but thats not the problem.

The problem is that the big 3, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft are to damn scared to put AO rated games on their consoles, and the big retailers are to damn scared to sell them. Its basically a kiss of death for video games to get an AO rating.

Ashkihyena

@Cruithne: Holy shit, no joke. I do not recommend operating heavy machinery on acid--OMG. It's like wrestling an angry crab.

pedantic_dandy

@NateN: HA! "Saw 12: Buckets of Blood" XD
Too bad some parents will watch that with theyre kids and blame the games for the nightmares eh?

@What The Geek: Was it ever 21? Dont know why i thought it was 21 eh Fudge it. Thanks for clearing that up.

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

come on now commenters, think for just a minute before firing off those flame missiles. This kind of thing is the same kind of press release as the mayor of Las Vegas fired off at the launch of Rainbow 6. They want some media attention, and GTA is a huge soap box to stand on. While I approve of their message, I despise their methods.

GustoGaiden

While I agree with pretty much every comment here, am also sick of everyone spouting off "facts" about the game that are wildly off mark (this one, another I read saying you were required to kill hookers after forcible sex, etc.), and think it is wonderful people like Cresente and anyone else are trying to set the record straight by clarifying what is just plain incorrect about the basis of why people are freaking out...

...after playing the game last night I really would have zero problem with it being AO or some equivalent like NC-17.

It's not the drunk driving by itself, but as a whole, the game has content that is clearly where "most parents would consider patently too adult for their children 17 and under", which is what MPAA defines as NC-17.

I'm not at all a big fan of the MPAA and think their criteria for ratings is in many ways broken in practice if not also in documented intent, but I do recognize the need for some sort of rating system so people know what they are in for. I'm no expert on the history of video game ratings, but have to think they are based on MPAA.

After playing through only the first dozen mission or so and doing a bit of exploring, I don't think there is any question this game would fall into the NC-17 catagory as opposed to the R if it were a movie. I'm pretty sure almost anyone looking at this objectively would agree.

It's not like there are some things here with adult themes that some parents would feel their kids were okay experiencing with their personal supervision, right? This game is very much adult from the get go.

And remember, this particular discussion about the game is over the rating, and NOT about how that rating is enforced.

While standing in line to purchase my copy yesterday, I saw a woman in her 40-50's (presumedly a mother) buying the game with a teen maybe 13-15 (presumedly her son). I immediately thought of what one contributor here had said, something like "in case the four guys with guns and the woman falating a lollipop on the cover didn't tip you off, this game is for adults".

I strongly feel you can't blame video games for people who are terrible parents, but I do feel you can address the marketing of adult games to children (and also movies here too) and the ratings that go on a game.

I really feel there is a medium here that makes sense and all too often the people that scream bloody murder about games are way off the deep end. The problem we face as gamers is not to fall into the temptation of jumping off the other side of that deep end and instead to remain reasonable and try and move to that medium and not just the polar opposite of whatever people attackign the game are saying out of ignorance.

dbushik

@Brian

Thank you for attempting to better inform their organization.

Many of the comments here disappointment me. MADD, at least at its root intent, is a fairly noble group/cause. In the real world, drunk driving has the potential to cause frivolous waste of life and is, in fact, serious business. Driving under the use of any substance puts so many lives at risk for no good reason.

I'd like to think that, given the full information of the way the subject is handled in Grand Theft Auto IV, they can see some merit in the level of choice afforded to the player and in game character.

Again, thank you for handling this news item with professionalism and even temper.

Tubatic

Have they ever pointed this out before or were none of them aware of the missions in Vice City where you drive drunk, or the one in Vice City Stories where you drive and run around under the influence of cocaine. THAT one was even harder, if I remember correctly.

Also they are all Maude Flanderseses. Es.

Baramos

@Ichidou: I of course refer to the female lady-type Michelle present in the opening gameplay of Grand Theft Auto 4. Not a reflection of my out-of-game life.

Ichidou

MADD slagging GTA IV is a lot like Greenpeace slagging Nintendo--it gets your name in the news and makes you appear relevant.

Double D Amateur Mothers FTW

schwarzsturm

Drunk driving in this game is just UNPLEASANT. Like, as you're swerving here and there, hitting people you're not intending on hitting, you realize it's not even FUN. After a night at the bar with Michelle, I drive as SLOOOOOWLY as humanely possible to get her back home nice and snug. You bump into too many things, and you ain't gettin' lucky that night.

I think rockstar was pretty smart about this.

Ichidou

@Dakobah: what's the big deal? hm, let's see. maybe due to the fact Sony and Microsoft will NOT allow an AO game on their console, perhaps?

kw4k

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2: No, adults only is 18 and up, once your 18 the only thing the government can prevent you from doing is drinking and gambling, AO is a 18 and up rating but its only real purpose is to stop the game from being distributed, if we gave this game a AO rating it would be pulled off of shelves in stores and not be allowed on the consoles (only PC allows AO games on it) so if we let the game get a AO rating were basicly letting the game die and telling people "go right ahead and screw up our industry, sure censor everything, its not art its trash that will poison our youth"

D Mitsuki

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2:

Well, after a lengthy review of all of those points people could, and I'm sure did, find, the game was given an M rating by the ESRB. It wasn't like Manhunt 2 where the game had to be resubmitted time and again to get down to an M (or if it was we didn't hear about it), the game just earned itself an M rating - sooooo yea - it's an M rated game.

And yes, AO is 18 and up. Not 21 and up.

What The Geek

GTA IV is the media equivalent of a Pinata. All sorts of organizations go up to take a wack at it and hope some media coverage for them falls out.

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2: If you could actually make an AO game for consoles, I'd be right with you on that argument. Not that there is really any difference between 17 and 18, but just because it drives home the point that yes, GTA IV is for adults. Then maybe I could go a few hours without hearing "OMG, it's a game with violence, think of the children!"

But you can't make an AO game. No stores will sell them. Best Buy and all their ilk are perfectly fine selling Saw 12: Buckets of Blood (unrated) and Generic Risque Comedy - unrated extra breasts edition, but god forbid a gaming equivalent of NC-17 ever existed for a gaming platform. Even if stores WOULD sell them, the consoles won't certify them because so you can't play them except on a computer.

I wouldn't be the first to argue that there is no point in having a top of the scale that no one can actually use, but that's an argument for another day.

NateN

@Derigor: hehe yeah i pay all my tolls except for the time i snuck underneath the gate after another guy paid

jp182

"Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."

If drunk driving is an 100% preventable crime, than wouldn't every other crime also be 100% preventable?

StagnatedLives

Now now,

Don't just hate on MADD. They are an awesome organization that does a lot of good than bad. Also, keep in mind that it is run by generation of people who don't understand the whole video game craze. They were probably misinformed. And seeing it from their perspective, I can see why they flipped the fuck out. They made a rash, and uninformed call.

Also, It's stupid, because it's just a game, Right? And that there are a lot of worse things that you can do in the GTA series. Like shoot an innocent in the face. But think of I this way. After I play the game I know that I am not going to grab a gun and randomly blast out my window, or rob a bank. Thats very black and white.
But drinking and driving is a little more ambiguous. I may be in a situation where there is only one might be inclined to drink and drive. Alcohol helps you make bad calls.

Intent to murder and intent to drive drunk are both criminal. But most people are stupid when they drink. They think they can handle it. MADD is freaking out due to the nature of drinking and driving. It's more of a grey area. Blurry like after a few drinks.

I know my argument is scattered and long winded. But do you see what I'm saying?

symeon6

this is the controversy that the game will use to boost sales (like it needed more reasons or sales), but this was expected. I haven't played the game yet (damn RRoD), but from what I have heard it seems like the drunk driving part will hopefully teach the players how hard it is to drive under the influence.

IF ANYTHING: this part of the game will stop gamers from getting behind the wheel after a few drinks. Hopefully this could be a way for gamers to show the media how GTA can actually be GOOD for society and it shouldn't be seen as negative.

JTmunny82

@LongDarkBlues: I'm genuinely curious why you would say they're corrupt? Obviously they don't do their research, but corrupt?

Stoli

@0bsessions: Yea and its time you start respecting us F.A.R.T'ers!

liquid_kore

@D Mitsuki: Im sure there are reasons for and against the AO rating, I havent played the game so i wouldnt know.
Im sure if someone tryed hard enough they could find some good reasons then someone else would nitpick on those reasons and why they are moot.
And is it really one year(17-18) I thought AO was 21 and up?

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

i do not understand these people. much like beating a hooker to get your money back, this is a choice! you do not HAVE to drive drunk, you can walk drunk. i thought this portion of the game was FKN hilarious

kw4k

@HfAsianInvasion:

That last line in your comment made me lol.

IndustrialJones

Yeah. But there are also missions that require shooting. And I assume that you have unprotected sex with hookers. Unfortutely, it's always been like that in video GAMES. You do stuff that's bad in the real world. Besides, YOU, the gamer, decide if you want to drive drunk, but the character himself, prefers WATER when given the choice.

slomo788

@p3hrmne: They tried that on San Andreas, it failed and failed hard.

Ashkihyena

This is MADDnes, stuff like this just makes your blood boils. Why can't these people that purport to save others just save us from their colossal ignorance.

ht9000

@p3hrmne: No, it would get GTA4 edited. MS, Sony, and Ninty all have very strong stances against AO games appearing on their platforms. Couple that with the retailers' decision not to sell any AO games, and you end up with any game, and I mean ANY GAME that receives the AO getting edited down to an M rating.

What The Geek

I don't usually call people on this but I'm going to have to say that they're just being oversensitive.

What amazes me is how MADD doesn't see the potential of that part of the game as an educational tool. Rockstar should release the drunk driving part as a demo and let MADD use it to show how insanely hard it can be to drive drunk.

But no. Let's just ban it instead.

Guitaratomik

I don't have the game...but does the game do more than just effect your vision?

trogam

Instead of punishing an industry that has nothing to do with 'drunk driving'... How about we enforce the law, and create a higher penalty for these careless shits who get behind the wheel? NOT MY FUCKING RESPONSIBILITY OR THE ESRB. Quit punishing others, and punish the god damn criminal! I'm so fucking tired of these groups making everyone else responsible for the lowlife scum of the world. If we would quit holding the hand of criminals in this country this shit wouldn't happen nearly as much.

Y0URGOD78

i'm all for making gta4 an AO game. not for the content, but for the fact there are next to no AO games because retailers such as GameStop and WalMart don't carry them. If such a popular game series like GTA would be labled AO then it would get people and the industries thinking more about that one year difference between the two ratings.

p3hrmne

This is another instance of some over zealous group trying to join in on the collective shit kicking of video games that seems to be all the rage. Before video games it was music and probably movies at some point, and I'm sure eventually they will move on to something else.

I just find it funny that they're all up and arms about this issue when you go around killing people at will. "oh murder the fuck out of people, just don't do it while driving drunk" -_-

demonknightinuyasha

That's stupid. They act like the drunk driving in GTAIV is without consequence. GTAIV depicts drunk driving as nearly impossible and cops will stop you for doing it. If anything, MADD should be glad that the game doesn't allow you to get drunk and then drive as if you were sober.

Eclectified

17 year olds can't buy Alcohol legally. So we should be safe.

oldskuel

This is why people can't take organizations like MADD seriously sometimes, because they just sound uneducated and stupid. Way to go for making your cause seem so realistic. I know it is, but people who see this will discredit you (MADD) completely.

Itri

Crecente, you are so Pimp for the way you call out these organizations for flying off the handle about games and not doing the follow through before they freak and fire off a press release...

Pay_Me_Or_Pay_Me_No_Attention

@chriscamp: Double standards? In my entertainment industries? It's more likely than you think.

J. Kyle

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2: Theres multiple reasons why it doesn't need a AO rating, for one, M stands for 17 and older, AO stands for 18 and older, tell me what magical thing happens in that one year where you sudenly grow mature and now your judgement is perfect and NOTHING like what it used to be? Second, it would kill the game's sales, nobody would carry it and they would have to censor it, and idk where you live, but in the USA if sombody censor's my shit im getting me pitchfork

D Mitsuki

You know what else is preventable like drunk driving? Stupidity. Obviously they haven't played the game enough to know what the hell they are talking about. They should stick to keeping drunk drivers off the road, not video games. Yet another failed attempt at life MADD.

Blake Ruff

I'm not sure it it'd be that big a deal. Kids are goign to get their hands on the game one way or another

Sparx

I would be genuinely shocked if MADD did in fact respond to you. Like many other groups, it seems MADD has already figured out what their position on GTA is, and is not likely to change it. Let me be clear - I have nothing against MADD. However, any and all groups that consider themselves "moral watchdogs" will find some fault with this game, and blindly attack it. Why? Because over the years the GTA series has earned a reputation as "morally objectionable". To retract their earlier statement, or acknowledge the fact that GTA IV is, in fact, not forcing you to drive drunk would imply that they are showing leniency to this "morally objectionable filth".

Basically, what I guess I'm saying here, is that they won't back down because they'd look like pussies in front of the other groups who try to police morality.

What The Geek

@battra92: No, because if thats the case then everytime you hurt sombody it should go into a lecture telling you why its wrong and everytime you kill sombody you should get a 25 to life sentence with a gameover, its suddenly not any fun anymore is it

D Mitsuki

Because all drunk drivers are teenagers.

sisedi

Awwww maaaaan. There's a drunk driving mission!

Thanks for the spoilers Joke-taku!!

/sarcasm

TRT-X

@El Patricko: Maddness? No...THIS IS SPARTA!...no wait its madd

I think its awesome the message's that adults send out to kids like that, if somthing doesn't agree with your morals, seek and destroy it buy all means neccsasary, nothing is allowed ot be diffrent, if its diffrent it must be destroyed. Like a game that actualy tries to teach a moral lesson Beer + Car = Jail + all guns taken away oh noes D:

D Mitsuki

I have nothing smart to say. I feel for MADD and any victim of a drunk driving accident. But why attack video games? M in games = R in movies. I don't understand why it's any different? God, I need a drink. Too bad I don't own a car.

vanderblade

@Krondonian:

Actually, it's not all that much higher. In the US in 2006 (The latest I could find for DUI deaths), there were an approximate 13,470 fatal car crashes involving an impaired individual (With a BAC of .08+) compared to a total of 17,034 deaths by murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. Drunk driving really is an epidemic in this country.

That said, this is absolutely moronic.

@Eranmane:

There's always Fathers Against Rude Television.

0bsessions

@PissedPS3Fan: I'm actually trying to play through gta4 without committing any felonies. I mean, running red lights isnt too bad but hell, I pay the toll booth. I only shoot back (self defense suckas). I'm an immigrant trying to make an honest living driving a cab. Whats so "omfg moral fiber destroyed" about that. This isnt HBO taxi cab confessions. Although it should be.

Derigor

Although I can appreciate the goals of organizations such as MADD, it's when they get to this level of what I can only call nit-pickery that I think they've lost their way. Before this stunt, they demanded that Keifer Sutherland be pulled from the GMC ads because of his drunk driving conviction. And before that, they were lobbying to have anyone with even a drop of alcohol in their system to immediately lose their licence. Now they want a game off the market (because lets face it, the AO rating is a death sentence to a game in North America).

I understand that they've lost a lot due to drunk driving. Having a loved one's live snuffed out short due to drunk driving is a terrible thing. But the answer does not lie in plugging everyone's ears and going LA LA LA everytime a reference to the act emerges.

The crime ultimately comes from the individuals, and stiffer penalties to those who clearly have no regard for others safety is a far more sensible solution. It is not the job of governments or retailers to plug the holes in their lives. Frankly, I don't think that kind of loss can ever be compensated for. In the realm of probabiity, it ranks right up there with "go back in time and keep it from happening". Governments can dole out punishment, yes, but stopping the world is out of the question.

It's sad that people lose loved ones to such a stupid crime, but attacking celebreties and making out-landish demands of corporations is not the way to accomplish anything. MADD and other organizations only trivialize their cause by taking outlandish stances like this. I'm look at you, PETA.

TitillatedOcelot

@GUNDAM-RX-78-2: Actually, no, no it doesn't, the M rating it got is fine.

Ashkihyena

@justhesh:

Dunno about PETA, personally, but I could see it. It is a shame that generally good ideas so often get perverted by the most zealous of their subscribers. Also, I'm sure there are other "special interests" just waiting in the wings, like I'm sure MADD was, ready to pounce in defense of their ever so precious cause celebre. These extra-sensitive types positively froth at the mouth when given an opportunity to play the victim or feign outrage. Okay, NOW, I'm done ranting =)

KingGorilla

Does GTA4 need a AO rating? Most likely.
For Drunk Driving not so much there's alot worse things in the game you could go after and have a stronger argument with.

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

@Mit: Soooo, drunk driving in movies = NC-17?

Drunk driving used to be a joke. Watch some old movies like The Giant Gila Monster. The old town drunk in his Model A is trying to drive; Oh the hilarity! More recent (though still old) is Cannonball Run.

I'm all for free speech, anti-censorship but I think MADD does have somewhat of a point here. Drunk driving is a pretty bad idea to put in a game unless you would be guaranteed to die or get arrested with a big fat GAME OVER.

battra92

@bangbangblah:

Everything else that features drunk driving?

Why not! That would have to include the MADD commercials since they all feature drunk driving, it'd drive them batshit crazy.

Koztah

I should have taken the cab on that mission, but thanks to my awesome drunk driving skills (carried over from real life) I was able to out run the cops without hitting any cars in gta4.

Words of wisdom from my former boss.
"When driving home drunk, always drive on the sidewalk. That way, there are no cars for you to hit."

works in GTA4, confirmed!!!

Derigor

Um, no?

Ashkihyena

Driving drunk is a horrible act and kids playing this might try it even if Niko gets messed up hard because of it... wait a sec, why are little kids playing GTAIV?

Lets start Gamers against dumb parents giving their kids violent games. GADPGTKVG... hmm doesnt sound very catchy. Gotta work on the name.

Ghost1984

There's some social commentary to be had when _drunk driving_ is what's getting mothers upset, not the whole "shooting people to death" thing.

In any event, it's a little too late for this - the ESRB can't retroactively change its standards and regrade a game. They can only regrade if the game was significantly different than what material was represented to them. Given that the industry tends to submit the worst possible footage to the ESRB after the Hot Coffee debacle, I'd say it's unlikely that will be the case.

Erwos

I don't know about those drunk mothers, but I usually play/drive/make-unreasonable-unconstitutional-uninformed-demands-over -the-internet sober.

Pezdispenser

where were they win 40 yr old virgin came out!

chriscamp

Also just like they pointed out its a CHOICE and is 100% preventable. You do not have to drive drunk in the game its a CHOICE. If you do it then that is your CHOICE. Plus its just a videogame but when I saw that you could drive drunk in the game I knew GTA would come under fire for it but not this fast.

ichiban1081

"include a game module" That doesn't sound right to me...

yanipheonu

They tell you you're drunk and they even suggest you take a Taxi. MADD are a bunch of idiots for not realizing that.

foxwarrior88

These kind of group single out video games for the same reason PETA singles out Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Its whats big.

See video games get constant scrutiny for doing essentially the same thing as in a movie, because video games are big news right now. Like comics in the 50's, they are treated as though they destroy children's minds.

Whereas, KFC uses pretty much the exact same chicken as a grocery store. PETA doesn't picket the grocery stores though do they? No, they don't. KFC is more popular than grocery stores from a consumer perspective, and where grocery stores are an essential establishment, KFC isn't essential so KFC gets the picketing.

It's a terrible double standard, and it's sad that most of these people have such a hard time accepting new idea's.

If anything our current generation changes a little I seriously hope that we have the ability to embrace change a little better than the current folks running the world.

DanTheMagnum

While we are demanding stuff that won't happen.

I demand a trailer of topless models who love Casual sex and are diease free to drop by my place for a wild orgy daily.

I also demand a cup that fills itself with any beverage of my choosing just by speaking the beverages name.

And while we're at it world peace.

ZenGaijin

Why isn't this AO anyway? That would prevent at least some of the annoying little shits from playing.

deathletter

Attaching their name to a popular product, to get news attention.

Now what you will see is CNN and a bunch of other sites giving MADD news coverage about this.

It's just a way to piggyback on the news coverage.

J449

@Erwin: Sounds like a fun challenge. I'm looking forward to trying some drunk driving tonight. Didn't think it'd be that hard, hell, it's not in real life! .... i kid.

El Patricko

@Dakobah: The big deal is no retailers will carry AO games. That's why San Andreas was taken off the shelves when reclassified. It would make it almost impossible for anyone to get, even adults.

pd771

If anything more kids need to play this game for the drunk driving portion. Not only does the main character tell you that he shouldn't get behind the wheel because he is too intoxicated, all the cops have to do is see you sitting in a car, drunk, and they will immediately go aggro. The fact that driving under the influence is hard as shit is just another point that reinforces the idea that you shouldn't drive while intoxicated.

Everybody who is totally against GTA because they think it's destroying the moral fiber of today's youth need to actually PLAY THE FUCKING GAME before they run their mouth. They will see that this GTA actually has morals. You're not just some lowlife thug out to murder, rape, and pillage everything in sight. And if you choose to follow that path, you will suffer the consequences.

PissedPS3Fan

On my third date in-game, I went to the pub. Ended up drunk, I made an educated decision that instead of looking foolish by trying to drive the girl home drunk, that I would instead call a taxi. Good choice as well, my previous drunk experience in game led to a run-in with the law.

Mustakrakish

@KingGorilla: Much like how PETA is pretty batshit insane and horrible?

justhesh

I tried it last night, I felt sick trying to drive around like that so I'm not going to do it anymore. But being drunk and walking around is so funny, the euphoria engine is amazing.

liquid_kore

Drunk driving is a choice is what they say and that is what happens in the video game as well.

artraider

It's obvious that groups like this only want to see the parts that support their opinion. They were clearly looking out for this to happen, and didn't bother to look at the details.

Way to stick it to 'em, Crecente!

My question for them is if GTA should be AO, then does that mean Superbad should be NC-17 because police were driving drunk in the film? Or everything else that features it, for that matter . . .

bangbangblah

It needs the "AO" rating! This game is "Absolutely Overrated" indeed!

Earthslide

We need to DAMM in on this.

Drunks Against Mad Mothers. Why don't they have a say in the matter. lol

Capp

I've always hated that organization's name. The word "against" implies that they're a serious arguement going on and they've chosen a side, like there's a "Mothers in favor of Drunk Driving" somewhere out there.

Moonshadow101

I guess they didn't hear about the drunk driving mission in GTA: Vice City.

SixDemonBag

@Shocky:

High five!

Bluur

I tried driving Niko back home when he was drunk... He ended up hitting a tree and flying through the vehicle's windshield.

Looked painful...

Dmartin001

Besides not being necessary, driving drunk is hard as hell and the cops will be after you if they see you. You can't stay on foot either because you'll trip, a lot. In fact, the game actually recommends getting a taxi as opposed to driving (the game even suggests paying the freaking bridge tolls).
Actually, in one side mission where I was just getting drunk with Roman I tried driving home, ended up smashing my car, tried to outrun the police and almost got caught multiple times. Also, on my third "date" with Michelle we went to a bar and my character got wasted. I still managed to drive her home without scratching the car and even ended up getting lucky. Hey wait a second... does this mean I can drive drunk in real life with only positive consequences?
Nah. I'm not stupid MADD. At least focus on the violence while on your soapbox.

Erwin

Here comes the pointing fingers again...

Sigma-D

@Bluur: Nice ownage man, you just earned yourself a virtual high five!

Shocky

Hey MADD, get a clue. Know what else kills people, a hell of a lot more than drunk driving. I know you never heard of it but GUNS actually kill more people than drinking, actually we should make TV shows AO since they have guns as well.

GameBreaker

The first time I got drunk in the game I laughed my ass off that was until I started to drive.... I hit a car and a Car Chase started.... Let's just say that it ended in a spray of bullets.

StealthMaster86

@RFX:

Wikipedia, probably. Another reason why they're completely misinformed, they read the first couple words of the sentence, freak out and run off to type up a press release for their self-important goody-two-shoes retarded organization.

They want attention, and the only way they get it is by surfing the Internet all day waiting for someone or something to point and squeal at until they get the attention they want so desperately.

Ignatius

The letter I sent to MADD:

"I find it interesting that you are filing a complaint again Grand Theft Auto for it's driving drunk mini game. Should we also attack games with characters smoking? How about World War 2 games where you play as the Nazis?

Should books joking about drunk drving be rated adults only?

I'm sure you're getting a lot of angry e-mails about this, but I want you to think about what you're doing. How many rated R movies have drunk driving?

M for mature means 18 and over. Are you saying 18 year olds can't think for themselves? I think what you're doing is disrespectful, and against the 1st admendment."

Bluur

Of course, when I played drunk driving in GTA, I said: Hey look, this is so fun! The cops are after me and Niko is about to die LMAO. I did however not say after: This is so cool I'm going to do this in real life and kill myself!.

Honestly, the only reason MADD gives a shit is because of the alcohol. We can shoot guns and do drive bys. Why can't people complain about that? You have to complain about the less lethal drunk driving? Whatever, hopefully, the ESRB doesn't do shit. I got my copy, I'm playing this game to the fullest.

Albanian_Killa

Hey MADD, why stop here? I think dropping toddler-sized banana peels and launching heat-seeking koopa shells are WAY more irresponsible. I mean, those things are specifically meant to cause damage out there on the scary, open road.
I'm calling out the ESRB right now for not giving Mario Kart an AO rating!
Please, think of the children!

BruzeWayne

such hate for people trying to do something right.

Drunk Driving is serious, my grandmother was killed by a drunk driver.

so do you blame em for trying to make stricter rules to get this out of the hands of childeren.

most of the people that bought this can buy an AO rating anyway, so whats the big deal on your part?

Dakobah

Sooo according to MADD you can murder all you want in a video game, but you shouldn't be able to drink and drive? Riiight.

J.A.

@HfAsianInvasion: yeah its hilarious

but yeah i found it SOO hard to drive while drunk and it actually made me alittle sick to my stomach. I thought i was developing Vertigo.

jp182

This is why I wanted my copy right away. I knew some group or another would inevitably try to get it banned, re-rated, or any other number of things.

Didn't expect MADD, though. Did not see that coming...

PapaBear434

I didn't want to chance it... I took a cab and got lucky as well!

bowser5

Mothers against this, mothers against that... Why isn't there a Fathers Against Stupid Organisations? That'd be a change.

Eranmane

Indeed, I think MADD needs to sit down and play the game. In fact the game just about ENCOURAGES you to hail a cab when drunk. The first time I made the attempt I thought I was doing pretty good but the cops kept one-starring me the second I got close. Then I noticed I wasn't as sober as I thought and was having a hard time controlling the car.

OH WAIT! That's a life lesson there, no matter how sober you "Think" you are maybe you should play it safe and call a cab. Needless to say the second I shook the cops I parked the car and hailed a taxi.

I really don't see where MADD has a case. The game isn't glorifying drunk driving nor are they making it out to be easy. In fact they're actively encouraging the player not to DUI.

MrEvil

Its a freakin video game. There is this little tool that would help solve this, oh yeah...its called "Parenting". Some of them should try it. If you actually monitor what your children are doing, then we wouldn't have all these 10-year olds screaming obscenities into the mic and teenagers thinking its cool to run over their friends with the family station wagon.

it involves looking things over before handing them to your children. Parents want to blame the industry or whomever they can squeeze money out of because they don't mind parking their children in front of the tube as a make-shift babysitter for hours on end while they live their lives, and then complain when they pick up on a habit or try to emulate something they saw.
If you've ever played a game where you have to drive "drunk", you'd realize its not much fun and difficult to control. Why would I purposely try to re-create that.

I mean, in the game, I can already run over people and kill cops and blow up cars and such, but because of 1 drunk driving mission that it needs to be locked up and treated as contraband? wow...

Capp

I can see how this would be upsetting if you know someone who died in a car crash or something because of a drunk driver. I can also see how this game would be upsetting if someone you know died of a gunshot wound. I don't know where the line should be drawn...should we not include anything in games that could hurt someone's feelings? I think we need to be sensitive. I haven't gotten to this mission yet, but if it doesn't glorify drunk driving, make you drive drunk, or reward you for drunk driving, it doesn't seem that offensive to me.

marissa_melee

MADD has come a long way from their original intent of preventing drunk driving through education and advocacy. They have morphed into neo-prohibitionists. Candy Lightner, the founder, has long since distanced herself from MADD and considers them more anit-alcohol than anti-drunkdriving. These modern day Carrie Nations make me sick.

/end rant

KingGorilla

I have to say, i personally thought that saying Video Games had a dangerous effect on people was a load of rubbish, just politicians trying to make names for themselves.

After playing GTA yesterday though, and then driving a few hours after switching it off, i kind of agree with statements like this. You do tend to lose yourself, even if its for a few seconds where you still think your in the game.

streetUK

I want to see how they respond.

They need to stop targeting GTA.

alby13

There's no way you're getting a rational response from MADD.

Wolfers

Who didn't see this coming? But this is stupid, driving drunk gets an AO but running around killing people for no reason is M? They have got to see the irony in this.

Gon

Did you know that MADD and their lobbyists were instrumental in passing the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984, which is why the national drinking age is 21? That's pretty far out.

Mr. Fluffykins

Im glad you contacted them about it. The taxi suggestion was the first thing that popped in my head. Drunk driving is extremely hard in the game. it not like some mini game of drunk driving..

SofaKingHI

Jack Thompson isn't a mother.

What is this tomfoolery?

SHENANIGANS I SAY!

Shocky

this is........... maddness?

El Patricko

I love how these groups use controversial games to promote their own aims-evokes images of those weird fish that attach themselves to whales and sharks, or those birds that live on rhinos.

Concretepiggy

Of course, the organization means well. But the purpose should be to discourage the act of drunk driving, which is done by the adults that make up the A in AO, as well. With their logic, they themselves would be saying that drunk driving is OK, as long as you're an adult. Which is counterproductive.

Their plan would merely add up to a personal attack on the makers of the game, through the means of cutting their chance for profit. Which is neither an appropriate action to take, nor an effective use of their true message.

justhesh

Really? The drunk driving?

lol. If someone talks back to Niko in the game I feel the need to kill everyone within the area with my shotgun. Watching the windshield explode and crack covered in blood....

it makes you remember that people are violent. im not proud that brutal death excites me, but its the truth lol.

Seruza

Not to mention that if you attempt to drive drunk in GTAIV the cops are on you immediately and it aint easy to get away when you can't see straight. Yeah, thats a terrible message "drunk driving gets you busted or killed." MADD indeed.

Gray665

MADD Demands AO Rating for real life..

Because, you know, you can just as easily make the choice to drive drunk in real life. And you don't have to buy a $3-600 video game system and $60 game to do it in...

TheUncleBob

Oh dear God... I've got a filter on Jack Thompson's name, and I still have to deal with this crap.

Tenth

@RichMeisterMan:

Yup!

dead_red_eyes

Just thought of something. They want to make this an AO game and make sure that ONLY those who can legally buy alcohol play it. So those who can't drink shouldn't play the game but those who can should....

GPman

@Mit: Exactly what I was going to post - are they petitioning every movie that has a scene driving drunk to be NC-17? I don't think so. Mostly they want attention for MADD - its not for kids already with an M rating.

And the game does exactly what MADD does - encourages you to take a cab -

Limafoxtrot

So basically they only want adults enjoying the drink driving? It does actually offer you a moral choice and even advises you to take a cab.

Its just this is a game where you can make your own choices, if a police officer sees me tipsy and going into my own car then he will try and arrest me. Its smart. Kids won't think lets drink drive because its in GTA thats as stupid as saying GTA makes kids suddenly think "If I kill people I will only get 1 star wanted level" People arn't that stupid. I hope.

flukielukie

Crecente, thank you for pointing that out to them. I am getting sick and tired of all these people spouting "facts" about GTA IV when they clearly have not played it for themselves.

dead_red_eyes

How did MADD even find out about this? Did some kid get to the mission and report it? Is the chairman of MADD a huge GTA fan, got here, and went into a state of shock? Was this released by the ESRB? Did Rockstar release this info out for the sake of publicity?

I just don't find out how all these people, who quite obviously don't play games, know about stuff like this and the "sex" scene in Mass Effect

RFX

Free publicity for GTA IV! I bet Rock Star just eats this shit up.

RichMeisterMan

MADD must have been quite drunk when they made this statement.

Zodduska

Are they mad?!

uninterested gamer

Good luck getting a response from them - that would make this a non-issue and subsequently gut any power the item might have for their lobbyists. MADD is a miserable, corrupt organization.

LongDarkBlues

The double standard in media is unreal now-a-days. Movie violence is awesome, gaming violence is deplorable. TV swearing is cool, swearing in a game is evil.

VixDiesel

Niko can call a cab so whats the big deal? LOL

Bizdady

@HfAsianInvasion: exactly.

looks like the mothers haven't done their research properly either, as it is not MANDATORY to drive drunk -- like they said, it's a choice.

fuck MADD.

mownkay

Shouldn't they go after the producers of Alcohol first? I mean GTA is just a game it can't do anything on its own GTA isn't making people drive drunk.

I guess its another case of these groups being to much of a wuss to go after the larger corporations.

ZenGaijin

Driving drunk in this game is not a fun experience and not something I would want to do again in the game.

GPman

@Zamzoph:

You got something against us aspiring immigrants?

In all seriousness, me and my coworkers here just had a laugh at this. Then again, none of us mind being 20+ years old.

Truvill

Easy targets are easy...

Shinamano

Oh, for Christ sake.

Nex Antonius

WOULD SOMBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDRENS!!!!!!!! D:

Dauragon C. Mikado

News just in: MADD wants every game rated over 15 banned, because they contain illegal acts.

You know what kills more people than drunk driving each year? Murder. At least go after the obvious module, MADD.

Krondonian

I've never driven drunk, but I do remember one time when I'd taken this really strong acid.

I do not recommend that.

Cruithne

The double standard is ridiculous.

This is a game. It shouldn't be treated like real life, and it definitely shouldn't be treated differently than tv shows or movies.

Good thing NO tv shows, movies or books have drunk drivers.

karasu is my homeboy

These broads need to loosen up and have a few drinks.

El Patricko

You know, when I hopped in the car drunk, I was thinking to myself, this is really hard, I probably should have taken a cab.

But what stands out most to me about this is the fact they want it made AO because you drive drunk, not because you FUCKING MURDER PEOPLE WITH WEAPONS.

HfAsianInvasion

We should definitely condemn a game that make absolutely impossible to drive in a straight line after having a few drinks.

I mean that just isn't realistic. I can see MADD's point, they want you to think you can get away with it, but you can't.

Wait, I've confused myself.

Lou3000

I thought the whole point of GTA was to do things you can't do in real life <.<

Zamzoph

Soooo, drunk driving in movies = NC-17?

Mit

.....its a video game.....

RET_Ghost

I tried drunk driving in GTA4 and the cops caught me :(

Struct09

(With apologies to Charlton Heston)

2008. The year we are in. We are in the middle of what some call the "Digital Revolution." Computers, and more specifically, the internet change how we do things. We no longer search for someone, we google them. Instead of calling someone about the plans, you message them. Rather than invite someone to your house, you show them your Myspace. And rather than loan someone a book...you loan them a video game.
Ah, video games. A multimillion dollar business these days. Where you can be anyone from a hardend gangster on the streets of Liberty City, to a plumber in space, to a legendary hero with a equally legendary whip, destined to slay Dracula...you can even be a tiny prince, whose father has destroyed the universe, and needs your help. All of these are possible in video games. Video games are fast replacing books or movies as entertainment. Books and movies are being made about video games - in the past, the opposite was true. Video games would be made from movies and books. Video Games, Movies, Books, all of them are intertwined. All are made by people for our entertainment dollars.
And yet, video games, more than the others, are constantly blamed for today's youth. "He stole money? Must have been that Grand Theft Auto" "Oh dear, that boy who played Counterstrike went and shot up a school. Damn video games" Movies and Books are never blamed in this fashion. It's never said that all books, or all movies are instruments of the depraved and nasty. Only a subset. 'No, you can't watch Die Hard. But something sane like The Lion King, or Casablanca...now THERE'S a movie' 'Harry Potter? Try some good literature, like Charles Dickens' You never see this with video games.
Be it Mario or Tommy Vercetti, Link or Marcus Fenix, Sonic or Serph, if you're a video game, you're a tool that's destroying family & moral values. Groups cry that video games must be regulated or destroyed, for only by having complete control will we be safe. I think that that's wrong. They don't want to keep their kids safe. They want control. To control what we read, or take in. If you read a book, or watch a movie, or listen to a song, you are there for the whole ride. You cannot change it. No matter how much you want to, Darth Vader will always be Luke's father. Tyler Durden will always be the same person. Even Old Yeller can't escape his fate.
Video Games buck this trend. They give the player control. If you want to slay that monster and claim it's gold, so be it. But if you want to run from it, and leave it to it's devices...and simply take out the Boss Dragon in the back, you're free to do that to. You can subjugate every town, bending them to your will..or you can let them all run themselves. You can befriend your enemies, destroy your friends...all of these are your choice, and your choice alone. And that terrifies the adults of today. The ones who make the movies, who read the books, who raise their kids.
They are terrifed of the aspect of us choosing what we want to do. That we may do something they don't want. The movie director, terrified of the fact that he cannot force you to accept that the bad guy's henchmen escapes. The author, terrified of the fact that she cannot force you to accept her main heroine has been raped in the past, and thus justified of her actions. They are terrified of losing their control. They are terrified by our control, our choices.
And rightfully so. For we enjoy being in control. We reject their notion that they have total say in what we take in. We embrace the notion of choice, of saving that last piece of jerky for yourself, rather than being forced to give it to some random bum in a house. They are trying to shake control from us, by labeling all games as instruments of Satan, as nothing but vile tools. In this aspect, they wish to control this as well.
They will never succeed. We have already embraced games. Those that have accepted this are succsessful. Shigeru Miyamoto, creator of Mario, is a multimillionaire. And so are several others. Even those who don't head the company make a very comfortable living designing worlds, and letting us do what we wish in them. Those that reject games fail. Hollywood is in the middle of an unprecedented slump. What would be considered a complete flop is a raging success today. Their standards have lowered that much.
I have a message to the movie directors, to the authors, to the groups that reject games: In my hand, I hold a controller for a video game system. I control what I see, and you do not. You will never take this controller from me. If you want it, you'll have to pry it, from my cold dead hands.

...I have no real idea why that ended the way it did.

Lyrai

"Each year no people die in drunk driving crashes and millions are not injured in alcohol-related traffic crashes as a result of people driving drunk in a fictitious setting such as a video game."

PrivateJ0ker

I knew when I first got drunk and drove my car in GTA IV I said to myself the People from MADD are all going to be up in arms about this and I was right.

N15PCA

@marissa_melee: The content of the game may very well be upsetting and offensive. But I don't really think that is