@Fyren: Been a long time since I heard the word NM. Now THAT was a complete waste of time.

For the record, I'm not playing any MMO right now. The 360 has my full attention. Although the promise of boobs and violence in AoC had me interested for a few seconds.

Shinryoma

Before, you basically had the same MMO gamers that moved from one game to another with small increases over time. With WoW. That has changed.

Shinryoma

Its a no brainer?.

The one thing WoW accomplished was pick up/go and instancing

You didn't have to memorize '/' commands, you didn't have to write down quests on a piece of paper, you did not have to /hail every npc, you never had to make macros because it was neccessary.

Would WoW have 10 million people if everyone on their respective servers had to spawn camp for 12 hours for a one NM?.

Fyren

@Sullyville: Thats weird i read that article as well, thought it was bs personally, but im no economist.

smuckersisgood

@SpishackCola:

Meh, you can keep the Charr, I'm sticking with Humans and Silvani. Maybe Norn for my warrior if thats an option.

Sparx

I doubt that ill ever try a mmorpg i just cant see myself paying ten bucks a month to play a game, i know its not much and i know id be getting something for my money, but id feel like id always have to be playing to get my moneys worth. Im also a little antisocial so it might be hard to get into any mmo. Though i must say eve online has sounded pretty wild to me.

smuckersisgood

There was this article a little while ago that suggested, counter-intuitively, that when a starbucks opened up near a mom and pop coffee shop that it actually brought business in, and instead of stifling the business, enhanced it, because people started seeing the two coffee shops as this kind of "coffee hub".

Sullyville

@Sparx:
True that. Totally gonna have a Charr main in GW2.

Anyway, I believe that it is because WoW was able to make MMORPGs more mainstream due to its success. I don't remember the name for it, but I think there is a sociological deal that if you see/hear a ton of people doing something (hopefully not illegal) you feel like you have to at least give it a try. Kinda like monkey see, monkey do.

I started WoW on day one, and only one other friend (back home as I was in school) of mine was previously into MMORPGs and also bought the game within the first week. My other gamer friends (that were in college/roommates with me at the time) were never really into MMOs, but after watching me play for a year all three of them eventually started playing themselves. Each of them played for about half a year and quit due to various reasons, but even their girlfriends (while they didn't actually start playing) became interested in the game.

SpishackCola

WoW didn't do damage to the MMO market, It did damage to the PC market as a whole.

The concept of 'Grind' is nothing more than a perfection of the video game content ever hypothesized by capitalism.

While WoW certainly helped popularize the MMO, the damage it has done to the rest of the PC gaming industry is a critical component in the inevitable death of the platform.

I_fit_in

Those who grow tired of the sea, will not find a new sea vessel, but will take to the sky (Starcraft 2).

Mooglecharm

the sooner the WoW boat sinks, the better IMHO... But hey, I'm just bitter

NecronomiconUK

Hmm, it's an interesting viewpoint. I've always been of the opinion that World of Warcraft has single-handedly destroyed PC gaming, especially the MMO genre, because its massive success has made it harder for other games to get a piece of the pie, as it were.

I suppose, like Channing said, that it could be a case of "a rising tide [lifting] all boats," though. We'll see!

kylenalepa

I'm still waiting for my Guild Wars 2. Come on NCSoft, I have my character names picked out and what sex they should be and at least a vague idea of the race. All I need now is the game or at least word of the beta.

Sparx

@Channing: yes a rises tide rise all.

Schoolimangooli

A rising tide lifts all boats.
That kinda feeling, isn't it?

Channing

I played WoW for 2.5 years before perma quitting it. If it was like before BC hit then it might still be playable. Everything is a grind now to get gear that will be replaced in a few months, even though i know thats the mmmorpg hook. And the pvp in WoW is just stupid and totally gear/paperrockscissors based. It was the same way with EQ. I just hope warhammer online or AOC can deliver a good pvp experience. We need another darkage clone minus the nerfbat crazed devs.

Sinharvest

I think he is right. Wow was succesful by bringing new people into online games. The problem is 3 years on from that most of those people are bored with them and are looking for an excuse to leave wow. But wow was a good game for it's day, soon as something comes along and takes it to the next level where it is fun again and not a grind people will abandon it in droves. There will be no wow killer there will simply be wow killing wow. The population will eventually move off into new mmo games like Age of Conan, Guild Wars 2 and Warhammer.

Falkano

I'm still waiting for an MMORPG with infinite levels and a viable solo play that yields competitive high-end loot.

Lixie

No one?
*cough*
Ragnarok Online had over 17 million years ago. It's just hard to track how many are in cafes/baangs so all data regarding it is typically thrown out and ignored.

It's also been going strong for years and years despite pretty awful management (at least on iRO!)

I played WoW for a month or two, but I had to get out because it felt too much like Lineage 2 with a drastic graphical downgrade.

fuchikoma

These other "successful" MMO launches of which he speaks are only successful for a short time though...

And that can probably be attributed mostly to WoW players who are tired of or unsatisfied with the changes coming down the pipe in that game, but want to stick with the MMO genre.

"WoW Runoff" as it were...

phor11

@Sparx:
Pfft, normal old humans and flower people have nothing over the mighty Charr! But, making a Norn warrior sounds cool too.

SpishackCola

Love the art up there, rofl

Norellicus

WoW put MMOs on the pop culture radar. I quit when I saw the treadmill revving up, but it's definitely a positive development in that regard.

scarshapedstar

@fuchikoma: Ragnarok Online didn't make it into the mainstream media. I played it for about two months before quitting, and even now I haven't met very many Americans who have heard of it. The game has done nothing to open up Joe Public to MMO's like WoW has.

antialias02

Hating "the grind" is such a stupid argument. Video gaming is not for you. Shooting up endless streams of Marines in FPS games to get to the next level is a grind. Puzzle Quest is a grind. All normal RPGs are usually grinds. Freaking Animal Crossing has a grind!

If you stop having fun you stop playing....unless there is some reward system where you get cash prizes for "completing" games that I don't know about, what is the real complaint? Most games are designed to entertain and waste time.

tincow

@antialias02:
Not in America, but I don't gauge a game's success by a single market. It was big enough to branch off its own franchises in S. Korea (original market), Taiwan, Thailand, China, Japan, Indonesia, Phillipines, India, Singapore, Australasia region, Brazil, Spain and Chile, Europe, and more recently France. I have also seen full two-page ads in American magazines multiple times.

So yeah... it didn't make it FAR into American mainstream media, but across the other half of the planet it's done pretty well. In some places it's gone quite mainstream, such as SK (of course) even publishing monthly Ragnarok magazines, holding live events, etc. and Japan's terrible... terrible anime series based on it. Various plushes/statues/figures/accessories from the game, etc...

WoW brought MMOs to Americans who didn't get into Everquest, UO, DaoC, etc. But to say something with 17 million players didn't make it to the mainstream when 10 million subscribers is record breaking is laughable. If those were all boxed copies it would be among the best selling games of all time.

fuchikoma

@tincow:
People have no idea what "grind" means anymore. Grinding is when you sit there killing the same mobs over and over, usually alone, with no variation.

GRINDING IS NOT:

Doing quests.
Running a dungeon.
Leveling up.
Replacing your gear.

Rayonic

@tincow: Grinding is when the game mechanics require you to do something un-fun lots to achieve something else that, for whatever reason, the game's made desirable. Killing marines in an FPS can be a grind... but only if it's got boring, but you really want to hit level 55 in CoD4 for the achievement to show off to your friends. Or whatever.

Lots of games have elements of this to pad them out (take any game that measures "100% completion", for example), but it's only really a key feature of MMOs (and Harvest Moon). Normal RPGs usually just allow grinding so weaker players can burn some time to make the game easier for a bit - it's an auto balancing mechanism. MMOs use it religiously because wasting as much of the player's time as possible == as much money as possible. Result!

Basically, this is unoptimal game design. If it was done right, the game could be entertaining you right now *and* satisfying your desire to achieve, show off, continue socialising with your guild, whatever. When people complain about the grind, they're talking about a serious and fixable problem.

As for just stopping playing, people continue playing games that briefly or permanently stop being fun all the time. The main reason is just expecting that it'll get fun again later ("once I get a mount at level 40... once I hit level 70 and can start raiding... once we can move on to that harder raid boss..." etc etc). For an alternative reason, look at 100% completion - people will hoover up any number of collectables and run through any number of random missions just to show off, have fully completed the game and feel like they've wrung every bit of enjoyment from it. I'd like to know if there's anything duller.

randomnine

@tincow:

Erm. FPS games have an ending. So do RPGs. You're working towards a goal. And the same is true of WoW. However.

The reason people hate "the grind" is that as soon as you get a touchdown they move the goalposts and you have to beat the next new instance, get the next gear, to stay competitive; it's all scripted by the developers and entirely predicable. It stands in stark contrast to free-form MMOs like UO and EVE.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

scarshapedstar

@tincow: Truer words have never been spoken on the topic. I have a good friend that decries MMOs all as a life ruining grind while championing alcohol as one of the greatest things there is. The air of condescension is palpable when my girlfriend and I talk about our "awesome Tankadin and Shaman duo" to one another in front of him. But hey, I'm happy that my friend spends the time he wouldn't be playing WoW by peeing in other people's sinks. He's doing a great job by not ruining his life on an MMO.

Same thing goes for all of those gamers out there that spend 5-6 hours a night playing other games, or those watching back to back re-runs of the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, or those spending all night on Youtube. You're all using your time so much more judiciously, and it's so much more rewarding that the monotony I subject myself to.

futurebiblehero

er, adding new end bosses.

scarshapedstar

@Rayonic:

Rayonic, you might want to take a step back and think of all things you mentioned as being part and parcel of a meta-grind.

You level again and again. You replace your gear again and again. You run dungeons again and again. And if you're going to tell me that running Molten Core 30 times doesn't fit the definition of "killing the same mobs over and over, with no variation" then you're really reaching. I don't see what on earth being "usually alone" has to do with it. You've never done a group grind?

Again, compare and contrast with a sandbox MMO. Nobody tells you to do sh*t in EVE. There are no levels and missions are there just for (relatively) safe cash. You don't have a fire a single shot in your whole career if you don't want to. You can get rich logging in for 15 minutes a day by hiring other people to do stuff for you.

WoW, in the end, hasn't progressed much from the formula of Final Fantasy 2. You gain experience, you get new spells and better weapons, you pick up party members, you tackle bosses. Sure, you can PvP and you can chat, but it's simply not that groundbreaking. The difference is that FF2 eventually ended but WoW keeps on ending new bosses.

scarshapedstar

Rose-colored glasses for all! Back on earth, we're about to see yet another incredibly expensive failure foisted onto the market - Age of Conan, complete with 20 Gig downloads and untested core features.

Blizzard is the only name out there with a proven track record of high-level QA and at least a passable attempt at creating a few dozen hours of content. That's why Vanguard was a failure, AoC will be a fiasco, Warhammer will be an unmitigated disaster, and the MMOs a couple of years down the pike like the mysterious Bioware Austin project and 38 Studios' vanity project will all be commercial, critical and creative losses.

MarionBarryHussein

Am I the only one getting a rather immature giggle out of seeing a pic of a night elf labeled "stroganoff?"

Skunky

I'm not an MMO hater but I think there's a big difference between your average single-player RPG grind and what WoW does, which is take even simple gameplay elements and make them ridiculously difficult/time consuming.

I hate having to inch my way through an hours-long instance because every single enemy is an "elite." I hate that combat revolves around pulling enemies one at a time when we're fighting in plain view of an entire room of baddies. I hate the endless deluge of "Kill X of Y" quests that serve no purpose other than eating up time.

Around level 50something in WoW I finally realized that I was only playing for the loot rolls, and was having no fun. If that's the best of what the industry has to offer, I'm not sure where else to turn.

Depending on the reviews, AoC might be my last attempt with an MMO.

Silverbackne

Holy cow, this is very similar to what Starbucks brought to the table, when the released so many stores, and got people used to paying 4 bucks for coffee. I read an article over at the consumerist.com, where local coffee shops did better, when they were located right next to a Starbucks... Interesting indeed.

SpearXXI

I never would have been able to get my GF to play AoC either. Thank you WoW...for making that possible.

macr0planet

Judging by what the guy is saying in the article, the title should be "World Of Warcraft Makes MMO Selling Easier". That's the basic gist of it.

I also find it ironic that this comes an EA exec at the newly christened 'EA Mythic'. What happened to all the WAR hype I was hearing? Answer: EA bought the development team, and we all know what's going to happen to the game now. Even an inflated market is never going to be big enough to support a turd, unfortunately for you guys.

Lov3

@smuckersisgood: Sounds like an MMORPG is the perfect thing for you. MMO's are full of real life social anxious people.

CalcioFool

No! smuckersisgood, don't listen to CalcioFool! He lies!
I played WoW but I'm afraid of people so I got to level 70 mostly by myself. Once in a while I would join PuGs (Pick up groups - groups formed by random people instead of a guild to do an instance) but that's about it. I would join guilds if they asked me but wouldn't chat or ask them to help me with quests/instances because I was afraid I would screw up and I would eventually get kicked out due to "inactivity" or /gquit (quit the guild) on my own since it was no different than me just being on my own.
It seemed like people were really abrasive if you didn't know what you were doing. For example, the first time in an instance everyone else would just go running around (knowing what they're doing) without explaining to me the things that I needed to do and would get mad and call me a n00b-faggot if I asked.
Getting to 70 by yourself is a very, very lonely task. Without friends on WoW, it's just a VERY crappy one player game with people calling you faggot.

Channing

@Channing:

HAHAHAA I have to say that that is pretty funny!! I had the same experience although I only got to level 21 on my own. I spent most of my time as a Warlock who would live underwater and resurface only to chuck snowballs at by passers and to breathe. I leveled up quite a lot living down there. Sometimes I had the courage to follow people around, hide behind trees and throw snowballs at them until they were knocked over. Than I would hide behind a tree again lol. Good times... while it lasted.

MikeA

@Channing: "Without friends on WoW, it's just a VERY crappy one player game with people calling you faggot."

I play with my real life girlfriend and was fortunate enough to find an awesome guild full of mature adults (that I did a ton of research on before joining), but I'd say that experience is certainly the most common one.

futurebiblehero

I think it's more likely that people as a whole are more ready to accept gaming as a "normal" hobby. It's a bit pretentious to assume that WoW paved the way there. You could just as easily say that Oregon Trail paved the way for a larger MMO market, or that consoles are responsible because they've slowly brought gaming into the lives of families everywhere.

It's a lame perspective no matter what.

Garonyldas