@slomo788: I think you missed my whole point! I just don't think it's fair to say "F*ck you M$ for copying everything there is to copy on the whole world of teh videogamezzz!" when EVERY single company copies its competitors! You, as a gamer, have no right to say that MS sucks for copying other console's stuff when the company that makes the console you own does the same f*cking thing!

henri1kk

Okay boys, put away the rulers ~
Regardless of who copies who, they end result is competition and that's GOOD for us.

Deluxe

@karasu is my homeboy: Sony added a pair of shoulder buttons. Microsoft followed.
Sony put HDMI. Microsoft followed.
Sony allowed unlimited space for downloadable games. Microsoft is following.
Every single third party that got the PS2 going, Microsoft bought (or tried to).
Just look at the PS3. Compare it to the PS2. Then look at the games. What Sony is bringing to this generation. Now look at the 360. And compare it to the original Xbox. It's like Microsoft just gave up and said "alright these guys know what they are doing, instead of doing our own, let's just follow what they do." I already stated that some stuff MS brought to the table last generation (shooters done right, triggers, Live). But this gen, they brought almost nothing. That, is a fact.

slomo788

@slomo788: hell if all those games you listed on the end are true then I may not get a PS3 after all :) I don't agree with your general argument but that aside, if these rumors are true then it leaves me excited for the most part. back in 2006 and 2007, many 360 fanboys were egging on Sony for getting it's online services in order by adding features found on live but not only is this an OK thing to do but people who knock it are just that, fanboys.

okenny :)

This sounds awesome. I could really see myself getting this. If only the 360 could support music from the iPhone-- stupid non-disk mode junk. Patch this! I want to use it with this game! I need some Dan Bejar Karaoke!

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

@Hellion86: Sarcasm?...

No fail...realize Sony has copied much more than Microsoft has, and that's all there is to it. To say Microsoft is the biggest copycat this gen is insanity.

karasu is my homeboy

@karasu is my homeboy: Fail, realize SONY always tackles these innovation by Either 1uping OR Mimicking their opponent.

Hellion86

@henri1kk: Sony copied the HDD from the original Xbox. Online gaming existed on the PS2 (MGS3 and Socom are examples). It was just not as well integrated. Everything Sony has added to PSN that reminds Live has been begged for by fans. Firmware 2.4 is an example. Home seems original, mods are original for a console, and PSN is the best place for indie games (whereas XBL is more arcade games-heavy). PSN is very different from XBL if you want to look closely. The best difference for me is the price... I suppose your jab for Nintendo would be the Wii, guess what? Again, Sony made it an original thing, not an exact copy. Sixaxis is Dualshock with motion sensors. The rumored Newton is the Wii-mote for the 360. Exactly. Just like the Scene-it remote. Sixaxis does not try to be an extension of your arm like the Wii-mote, just new ways to control your character (shake to reload in GTA4, to melee in Resistance or to remove the camo in MGS4; use it to keep balance in Uncharted...). Trust me, they could not be more different. I'm disappointed in Microsoft's approach in videogames, and this is just one example of why.

slomo788

@slomo788: You cannot be serious?

Microsoft added triggers. Sony followed.

Microsoft invented the multiple skus for choosing what console variation you want. Sony followed.

Microsoft did online game store. Sony followed.

Microsoft did ingame dash board and messaging. Sony is following.

Microsoft did custom soundtracks. Sony is following.

Those are facts. Microsoft's controller is a modded dualshock? Funny, because it's kinda a variant of a modded Dreamcast controller...and the newest Dualshock attempted to copy the 360 controller's triggers, which Sony never had before.

Sony is the biggest copycat this gen. Then Microsoft, and Nintendo only copies here and there (online store...that's it?). I cannot believe you think Sony is innovating more than Microsoft. That's insane.

karasu is my homeboy

@KingBroly: See this @karasu is my homeboy:

karasu is my homeboy

@Snuffbox: That's exactly what I'm saying! Sony's been copying stuff from its competitors since the PS3 launched! They see something good and they try to copy it (see Trophies, errm, I mean, Achievements)... So it's not really fair that people talk sh*it about MS for doing the exact same thing!

henri1kk

@ElGatoMalo: Alright I suppose you're just new to the world of blogs. EVERYONE who's been reading for at least a month KNOWS that Microsoft is just copying everybody this generation. I can't imagine how you came up with this analysis. Microsoft is copying Singstar, Scene-It, Miis (allegedly) the Wii-mote... They added HDMI after Sony, their controller is a modified DualShock. Last gen they added a few things to consoles that became standards, but this gen, they are just copiers. By the way, get your facts straight with that stupid Haze/Halo comparison. Sony has nothing to do with Haze, Ubisoft does. It just happens to be a PS3 exclusive. No it doesn't matter whose console it comes out on, but as a multiplatform owner, it does suck that one console is a pale replica of the other. I bought the 360 after my PS3 to play unique games, not to find copies of games I could buy on PS3. If that's what videogaming is then I made a royal mistake by buying two consoles. ALL Microsoft does is buying third-party exclusives and copying firs-party games this genration. Everything unique they have are franchises introduced since last generation (and Live, which also appeared last gen). You want the two innovators? Sony and Nintendo. Nintendo for obvious reasons, Sony for building the most technologically advanced console and managing to make PSN more than a mere copy of XBL, for better worse. While Microsoft is copying Singstar, Sony and Nintendo is introducing completely new genres with that gardening game, Afrika, Wii-fit... Get ready for Ostralia, a cooking game and X-weigh-lifting soon, [Only on Xbox360].

slomo788

Waits for Six-axis integration announcement.

Hellion86

@henri1kk:

Only a true fanboy would imagine that his console of choice is immune of the crime of stealing ideas from another system.

Breaking news: information is free and companies (gasp!) frequently adopt successful ideas used by other companies.

SIX-AXIS was revolutionary, right?

Snuffbox

@KingBroly: As someone who started on 360 and now has a PS3, Sont is trying really hard to copy XBL. And not succeeding yet. Getting closer every few months, but they aren't there yet. And they are clearly patterning PSN on a free version of Live.

lionkitten

I think the idea of using your own music is a pretty strong one. If it could turn all your CD's/MP3's into karaoke? For $60 or $80 for the mics and the game? That's a good deal if you are into this type of thing if there's a simple karaoke mode, where you don't have to play some game along with it.

People rent karaoke machines or buy them for parties or occasions for as much or more than that. I'd be interested to know more about that feature. I'd only use it twice a year, maybe, but if it can double as a karaoke box, I'm in. (Especially if you can secretly record your friends!)

lionkitten

@KingBroly: By copying every single good thing about XBL! Need I say more?

henri1kk

@slomo788: And you're giving them a pass on this because of it?

@henri1kk: How has Sony been copying Microsoft again?

KingBroly

@Shiryu:

Let me help refresh your memory

*Microsoft introduced multiple skus, industry replied negatively ("We don't do that here..."), PS3 soon after has identity crisis, announces 2 Skus, shuffles through 3 more later dropping and adding backwards compatibility and memory.

*Microsoft pioneers online arcade store. Sony follows. Nintendo follows.

*Microsoft popularizes triggers for shooting games. PS3 controller *attempts* triggers

*Nintendo has Miis. Second Life popular. Sony announces Home.

*Nintendo has motion control. Sony puts together Sixaxis.

*Microsoft has ingame dash. Sony is preparing ingame XMB.

*Microsoft has ingame music. Sony rumoured to be adding this as well.

This industry thrives on stealing ideas, and Microsoft is hardly the worst at doing it. They're basically making a push for casual gamers. People complain they're so hardcore, they try to change it, and people still complain. This is the industry.

karasu is my homeboy

@slomo788: Sony's been copying the Wii and the 360 for over a year! I think it's not really fair to trash MS for doing something Sony's been doing since launch...

henri1kk

Well, at least SingStar's garbage is not as popular in the US as it is in the EU, of course, it could be worse...like Karaoke Revoultion made by Harmonix...

Manator (Follow me and die!)

@majatt: @enigma89: @slomo788:

As a multi-console owner, I can definitely point to the fact that in this generation, there are two "innovators" above and beyond others. Nintendo and Microsoft. Nintendo for their interface choice and ease-of-use and Microsoft for their near-perfection of an online presence.

So what if Microsoft decides to take a piece of the Sony SingStar pie? Sony *tried* to take a piece of Microsoft's Halo pie with Haze. (Which isn't working out too well, if the reviews are to be believed.)

As some of you have pointed out, Sony's got a HUGE user base for SingStar already. If someone *really* wanted to play SingStar on a PlayStation, they'd have both already. All MS is trying to do is offer the same amount of fun for their users.

In the end... isn't that was videogaming is about? Fun, learning and entertainment? Does it matter on whose freakin' console it comes out on?!?

ElGatoMalo

Why would they allow you to buy music when you cna use your own? That's just crazy.

Marasai

@KingBroly: It's Microsoft's idea of originality.

slomo788

@Shiryu: I'd have to say no. No there aren't.

enigma89

MS really needs to stop responding and start dictating play. They were the first out the games and yet so many announcements seem rear-guard.

majatt

@Murdoc:
Um... it's one of THE most popular titles in Europe. Check out the sales figures; it's a beast.

Walshicus

@Murdoc: Here in switzerland, it's the fucking RAGE virus. From hardcore MGS 4 obsessded nut to the casual Pro-Evo kicker, everyone has a copy of Singstar and its many incarnations.
Sadly, I feel ashamed because of this.

MOP88

@Murdoc: Singstar is popular in Europe. This won't do so well here. I don't get the point of 2 microphones though. Singstar only has 1 microphone, right?

KingBroly

Lips...Microsoft is now, undeniably, trying to have people make fun of their name choices. I guess they were inspired by the Wii.

@Murdoc: In Europe, Singstar is the biggest selling franchise of all time. It's sold some crazy number, like 100 million copies over the various version.

Arsenicberyllium

@Murdoc: Well I know it was pretty popular here in the UK anyways, and possible elsewhere in Europe.

ciabb64

Oh man, interactive microphones? I'm blown away by the possibilities!

Nobuyuki

... and that deja-vu feeling just keeps on getting stronger and stronger! WTH, are there no original concepts left on M$!?

Shiryu

Did there need to be an answer to sing star? was it even popular?

Murdoc

More accessories needing to be bought for the 360, eh?

Hoprfully they'll allow the Rock Band mic to work with this. If it's worth buying, of course.

Lukehmuse

@slomo788: I seem to have upset a fanboy-in-the-making. My apologies that my observations were so inflammatory that you saw fit to insult my experience with blogging and the Internet in general.

Judging from the responses you yourself have received, I'm starting to think perhaps that for the one finger pointed at me, four more are pointing right back at yourself.

Also, my facts *are* straight. Haze was to be for Sony was Halo was to Microsoft. Keep in mind that NEITHER hardware manufacturer actually MADE their respective games. So stop trying to insinuate that I'm wrong in that comparison.

You also seem to have missed the tone of my original post - perhaps you being a blogging "veteran" entitles you to ignore *reading an entire comment* before flying off the handle, in which case, I'll gladly take a "newbie" title, even if it's unwarranted. My original post implied that copying isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when a company can benefit from adapting the ideas of their competitors. My original post was pointing out that in this generation, MS and Ninty are doing a much better job at innovating than Sony has.

-- And keep in mind that Sony didn't include HDMI for their games. Sony included HDMI for their Blu-Ray player; it's debatable if they would have included it at all if Blu-Ray didn't require HDMI for maximum return-on-investment. Remember when Sony touted the PS3 as a media player first, gaming console second? Remember that, SloMo? I do. Perhaps I'm not as "new" to the blogging scene as you think.

But in the case of HDMI, the only thing I'm willing to admit is that perhaps Microsoft miscalculated HDMI's demand in their initial rollout. But I won't go as far as to say Sony innovated there... HDMI was one of two HD-industry standards long before the PS3 came out, after all.

ElGatoMalo

@henri1kk: sounds like fanboyism (for microsoft) to me. Seriously, have you never heard of Microsoft's monopoly practises? That's what happening here. It's like since day one they've just wanted to dominate and get a piece of the pie with everything, Google, Yahoo, Games, you name it. Its EA, only bigger.

Jagzthebest

@Combichristoffersen:

Afrika = next-gen Pokemon Snap. I could just as easily say Crackdown is innovative (superhero sandbox!). Concepts of innovation are really in the eye of the beholder. There are a million ways you can define innovation.

Nintendo is the only real-innovator this gen. Their "innovation" too be be questioned in terms of game content.

Snuffbox

@henri1kk: At a point Sony was the last to enter. What did they do? They kicked Nintedo's ass. For 2 generations. Why? They brought new things, and allowed more than characters jumping around in colorful environments. Microsoft didn't invent online gaming on consoles, Sony had that with Socom, and it was pretty solid. Microsoft didn't have to make their head work too hard to make that better because of their experience with PC and the Xbox was not too different from that. The fact that LBP is the only game you're interested in doesn't mean it's the only original PS3 game. Microsoft had a lot of time to learn from their mistakes, but they are adapting the wrong way. Well for me anyways.

slomo788

Who cares, all there doing is copying. But what really pisses me off is when the Microsoft PR reps and people look smug while doing it, like Jeff Bell was it? (I can't remeber the name) at E3 2007, when he introduced the Buzz controller, he looked so smug and was like play scene it "with our amazing new [innovative] controller!"
@slomo788:

Jagzthebest

@henri1kk:
That gardening game and Afrika are pretty original PS3 games if you ask me.

Anyway, MS has undeniably been innovating in terms of online play and controller design (triggers), but games-wise I'd say 360 offers the least amount of original games of the three current consoles.

Combichristoffersen

@slomo788: If you forgot, MS was the last to enter the console business! It's true that they're still learning and have a LOT to learn! But that doesn't stop them from being original! If MS didn't set the standards for console online gaming with the Xbox and expanded them with the 360, where would we be in terms of matchmaking, leaderboards, etc? MS has done quite a bit to promote the evolution of console gaming! And you say PS3 is a breeding ground for originality... The only PS3 game I'm moderately interested in is LBP because all the other games coming out this year are sequels or things that have been done time and time again... Saying MS *just* copies is a fanboy-ish way of looking at the whole picture! They're putting up quite a fight! And they're learning from their mistakes! And if they finally give in and copy one or two things from the companies that copied them, well... They can't really be judged!

henri1kk

@Murdoc: See Europe. Widely popular in that region. Enough to merit a Bollywood iteration.

liqideos

@lionkitten: Why are you so angry? The heat! Lol j/k I'm not really angry just carried away ;)

I acknowledged Live, XBLA and everything, but I can't see it as more than an expansion of an original feature... of last gen. And as the company that produces Windows, I can't imagine it was too hard to come up with.
Nintendo's big thing was the introduction of the Wii-mote, and Wii Fit and Wii Sports are pretty innovative, and brought a new genre altogether to the gaming scene and a new way of playing.
Viva Pinata is new for an Xbox game, and it's a nice mix of platformers and sandbox games. But what have we seen that's "woah@" or "WTF?" from Microsoft after that?
Sony has LBP, Afrika, the gardening game, indie games like Calling All Cars, Pain, the Office-like game, all the PSEye games... And that's just on top of my head.

slomo788

@slomo788: Please. We could barely name 5 games this entire generation on ANY console that are really "new". I'll start: "Portal". Go.

lionkitten

Help. Kotaku broke. Its turned into an insane fanboy rant war. I mean, even the Resident Evil 5 stuff had more intelligent comments at times.

I'm ashamed of this whole thread.

Arsenicberyllium

@henri1kk: Read my comments. My problem is not with copying, it's with *just copying.* Nintendo and Sony are the leaders this gen, Microsoft is a follower. Just compare their games, both released and upcoming. Microsoft would need more than PS2 sequel JRPGs, a Wiimote copy and Gears 2 to impress me. If Sony announced nothing at E3 they would still keep PS3 owners in anticipation with the already announced titles. Name me 5 unlreased 360 games that will bring something new? Either as a genre or as a way of expanding it. The Xbox Division suffers from a real problem of originality. Their most original game is Fable 2, and it's unfortunate that it's coming the same year as Fallout 3.

slomo788

@slomo788: Wow. Quite the rant. You make some decent points, though it's hard to tell through all the anger (and lack of paragraphs).

You lost me at the end though. I'll give you Nintendo with Wii-Fit and the Wii-Mote. But what first party games have either put out that are totally unique? The big hitters for Nintendo have been Mario/MarioKart/Smash Bros. Those are old IP. What does Sony have?

MS has done some new stuff that you are overlooking. XBLA, for example, was the first console service to be providing downloadable games and content - even on the original Xbox, though less successfully. They've tried other things like Viva Pinata that are pretty original, if not overwhelmingly successful. Of all the new IP this gen that is exclusive to a console, Gears of War is one of the most successful.

Their innovations in the Live services and software behind the hardware are pretty impressive. To say that MS only steals and copies is wrong, just as it is unfair to say that any of the companies don't have new ideas.

They all copy and steal from each other, perhaps Nintendo less than others.

Why are you so angry?

lionkitten

@okenny :): @karasu is my homeboy: I have no problem with improving a console. Nintendo has always done that, Sony has and Microsoft has. Now more than ever since it's free through firmware updates. Everything Sony or Microsoft has copied from each other through firmware updates has been begged for by fans, and if it's adding to the experience, it's OK to some degree. But the 360 has a personality problem, both in terms of hardware and games. I have one, and there's little I want to play on it I can't find on PS3. The fact that online is free on PS3 does not help me either. I hate the idea of buying a console for a handful of games, but at this point besides Gears 2, the Mass Effect sequels and Halo Wars, I can't see my 360 getting much use. On the other hand, I have a 60-player online game coming this fall, along with an amazing platformer with user-created content. Excuse me for being disappointed in Microsoft, but triggers, in-game XMB (all features that I've wanted because of my experience with the original Xbox) and motion sensors are not enough to make me think that Sony isn't the one that brought more to the table this generation. PS3 is one of the most advanced piece of hardware for a videophile, a video game fan and an audiophile. The games are groundbreaking. And what your comments are proving is that it's possible to satisfy your fanbase (with requested features like in-game communication, hopefully) and still be innovative with games like LBP. MS said they would be the PS2 of this gen. Man were they right.

slomo788

@Murdoc:
It's insanely popular here in Europe.

Anyway, so MS are preparing to offer their users a SingStar ripoff and Mii ripoffs? The amount of original ideas over in Redmond is overwhelming.

Combichristoffersen

@Combichristoffersen: I agree with everything you just said! Maybe this act of desperation turns out to be quite good.. Who knows? I'm looking forward to see what's coming!

henri1kk

@ElGatoMalo: No, Haze was never made out to be Sony's Halo killer by anyone but some media outlets and since Sony had nothing to do with it it doesn't count. I believe the game your looking for would be Killzone and/or Resistance, ya know games that are actually better than the first!

@EVerybody else: Your all forgetting that Micrsoft and Sony and Sega copied the button layout of the SNES controller, jesus christ how could you guys not realize that!;p

Makidian

@ElGatoMalo: Dude seriously cut the Haze crap. You're embarassing yourself. Haze is a mediocre third-party exclusive (published by Ubisoft, you know, the same company that will make the next Splinter Cell a 360 exclusive). Halo is a first-party game (published by MS, the platform maker), and a flagship title for the 360. So no, Sony didn't copy Halo through Haze. Resistance I might have accepted but since Halo 3 had some elements from it I suppose the point is moot. People have tried to tag every FPS on a Sony console as the "Halo-killer" but Sony themselves never advertized anything as such. That Haze/Halo thing started with a dev trying to hype its mediocre game by citing Halo. Hope I could help you there as a "blog-veteran."

As I said many times to those 4 fingers, copying is fine and it's actually healthy for the competition, but JUST copying sucks, especially games. I think that point is clear. If not too bad. Just look at the last 4 or 5 articles about 360 games and features and you'll see.

HDMI was in the PS3 from day one. PS3 is a videogame console that plays BDs. Just like PS2 was the first video game console to play DVDs. HDMI was boasted by Sony for HD output, both for games and BDs. Microsoft added it later (again, a good thing, since I'm enjoying it right now). I don't know what you were trying to say with that comment but myself I'm pretty happy with Blu-ray in my PS3, both for games and movies. But the HDMI thing was just to say that the 360 has a personality problem, both in the hardware and its games.

slomo788

@henri1kk:
I'm not saying any of those games are mass appealing (and they most certainly don't appeal much to me). But they're original and inventive ideas. That was my point.

And I agree that MS is doing good in the hardcore segment, but the blatant ripoffs (Buzz ripoff and now ripoffs of Miis and SingStar) they're trying to use for wooing the "casual" segment just seems.. I dunno.. a bit desperate. Which MS really shouldn't be, as they're doing just fine.

As for God of War.. Sure, it's the third in the series (well, it'll be the fifth if you count GoW: CoO and GoW: Betrayal), so it probably won't be innovating anything. But the first one was quite original, I'd say. Sure, 3D beat 'em ups had been done before (Devil May Cry etc.), but GoW added a whole new level of blood, guts and tits, something that AFAIK hadn't been done before in such games (also, the plot had a more epic schwing to it than games in that genre usually has). Resistance and Killzone probably won't be very innovative though, as there's not much more you can do with the FPS genre, I guess.

Combichristoffersen

@Jagzthebest: Well, if insulting is the only way you can make yourself be heard... I was just pointing out that what PS users are doing isn't fair... But whatever, I gave up on trying to talk to civilized people on forums a long time ago! I just thought Kotaku would be more open-minded! Well, I've said what I wanted to say and I'll be gone! Cheers

henri1kk

@slomo788: okay my reply button fucked up but slomo, dude chill and fuck henri1kk since he sounds like a fanboy and should just get banhammered. Infact most of this page's problems will be gone if henri1kk goes back to his kindergarten class. Because after reading his comments? yep, reaks of fanboyism. Check it:

[kotaku.com]

Jagzthebest

@slomo788: I didn't say they invented it... They set the standards!

@Jagzthebest: Yeah, I'm a little biased towards the 360 and the Wii... I admit! And I clearly know that MS is a monopolizing bitch (hence why I'm a Mac user)! But isn't Sony one too? Or do you really think all they care about is your loyalty?

henri1kk

@Combichristoffersen: Afrika really got my mojo going until I found out it was a realistic Pokémon Snap... The gardening game, although it is original, doesn't come out as mass appealing... At least to me... LBP will be fantastic and I'll seriously consider picking up a PS3 to play it! MS has a lack of original IP's, I concur, but what they do (hardcore action and shooters), they do perfectly... And with this, they're trying to think outside the box! But their competitors (and I mean Nintendo) have done it so well that to reach out to that "casual" market they have to use a few ideas that the big N has already implemented... And that's what they all do! Sony's having a tough time with the hardcore crowd, hence Resistance, Killzone, God of War, etc, which are games that borrow their so called originality from lots of other titles! But I'm not criticizing Sony! I just criticize people that criticize MS for doing the same thing Sony does!

henri1kk

@Arsenicberyllium: Agreed.

F**king Fanboy's!
Why must you people be fanboys? Each console maker has its uniqueness, otherwise we would all be playing a single console(stupid idea) with craptastic games due to no competition (PC targets different audience).

To settle this name all currently released and soon to be released titles for each console that offer a unique gaming experience and they must not be an established franchise? so no Mario Galaxy(waggle) or Singstar(Mic)

Ariance

@I_Hate_This_Place:
The PS3 has Talladega Nights in HD format. Now that can't be done on the 360 ;D

Jagzthebest:
Ah, OK. I'll give you that one then ;)

@henri1kk:
Absolutely. Copying and improving has always been a part of the videogame industry (an example would be how the original PS1 controller basically was just a modified SNES controller), so Sony and MS are both guilty of copying (Nintendo not so much, as they've always seemed to be going their own ways). The Lips franchise might attract some buyers in the US, as SingStar isn't as popular there as here in Europe (judging by your name I assume you're Scandinavian like me?), but in Europe SingStar will probably still be the undisputed king of vocal games, with Lips attracting few customers. We'll just have to wait and see.

Combichristoffersen

@I_Hate_This_Place: I don't want to get into an argument, becuase that is not why I am here, but you my friend have just pulled the classic AFCDT (Angry fanboy context displacement trick)

You've taken statements I wrote out of context that should be understood with paragraphs, for example "They then sought purchasing companies, i.e Rare" was actually "They then sought purchasing companies, i.e Rare, to become successful" Because that was 'then' , before they weren't successful with original IPs so they bought Rare, which arguably, was successful for its games, and reduced it to shit. Good luck Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts. Wow just rang a bell from Ratchet's currency. Never mind.

And when did I ever mention Killzone 2? Even so, it still looks drastically better than Killzone 1 and dare I say it, Halo 3. But thats just eye candy. I'll have to play it first.

Next time, don't take people's comments out of context.

Hell for the fun of it, I'll do it with yours.

@I_Hate_This_Place: "MS is the worst because they came in last and I don't like them"

tut tut, thats not a good way to speak about Microsoft.

Jagzthebest

@Arsenicberyllium: I would call it a "Friendly Argument" with each company's Pros and Cons. and it seems slomo forgot to add Nintendo's stubborness. remember third parties wanted high-capacity storage? that's how the Nintendo messed up with the N64 and the GC. but now they're back on top. now, this is just MY OPINION, but MS WILL BE IN 3rd place by the end of this generation because the 360 is dead in Japan. now for the topic, Music games are becoming like Crack to me. First it was Singstar and DDR. now it's Rock Band and GH3 (don't flame me cause I can actually play guitar, drums, and Piano). though I highly doubt I'll get this game.

Grimmjow Jeagerjaques

@henri1kk: It's great that you get to play games and enjoy features exclusive to PS and Nintendo. It does make the competition great and establishes new standards. BUT Microsoft is not playing right. They are like a leecher who refuses to seed. Everything Sony or Nintendo could copy from them existed since last generation (shooters, online, nice hardware standards). It's like they became traumatized after last gen and said "alright, fuck innovation, let's just copy the other ones." Like you said, copying is great: a PS owner can now look forward to shooters, western RPGs and online gaming thanks to that. But there also are tons of games unique to PS3, and I've not seen many of them from Microsoft for 360. That was the point of my whole rant.

slomo788

@Combichristoffersen: Oh and your other point! Original IP's... You're correct! I still don't believe that MS hasn't noticed the number of quality studios they have... Lionhead is working on a single game, granted it'll be a masterpiece, but that's a big waste of developers! Rare have always been known for taking a lot of time to do one single game and I think they should be pushed to break new grounds and not just to continue with their current franchises! Rare is unbelievably creative and MS is just plain dumb for not using that creative power... That said, I'm anxious for some Nuts and Bolts xD

henri1kk

@Combichristoffersen: Exactly! For people like me, who don't have the money to buy all three consoles (I bought the 360 and won a Wii on a TV contest) it's really hard seeing cool games like Singstar on a console we can't afford! So this is actually good for the current install base! But you're correct, I don't see it appealing to PS3 users or other people because Singstar is already well known as a landmark game on the PS platform! When it comes to the Mii rip-offs I hope they expand it way beyond what Nintendo is doing! And the rumored "Newton", well, I still don't believe that rumor but I may be wrong... I'll just have to wait!

henri1kk

@Combichristoffersen: Sorry, what I meant by tech was Blu-Ray etc

Jagzthebest

soreeeee? sob...sniff snifff.
Solz man not used to this dvorak keyboard

StrifeHawkins

@Jagzthebest: I'm sorry, all I got from your comment was "MS is the worst because they came in last and I don't like them".

Let's see: "Halo 3 was Halo 2 with a new coat of paint"

-what sequel isn't? Do yuo really think Killzone 2 is going to be vastly different than the original?

"They then sought purchasing companies, i.e Rare"
-Sony also owns developers, your point?

"Realising their mistakes, they rushed the Xbox 360, and not only is it wgetting its assed whooped by nintendo in sales and by Sony in Europe and for its slightly inferior tech, but its RROD."

-agreed on MS rushing, but "slightly inferior tech" is not only debatable, but currently not even proven. What games do the PS3 or the 360 have that the other could not do? As far as your main point of "copying", the same could be said of many of Sony's ideas, as well as nintendos.

I_Hate_This_Place

@StrifeHawkins: we don't need people like you either,

AtLeEst speL corecTly coZ I cAnT ReeeD iT ThEn!

Jagzthebest

@henri1kk:
It could. It'll obviously be nice for the 360 owners to get something like SingStar (it's a guilty pleasure of mine, although I suck at most songs, except Karma Chameleon, I do that one like a god), but I'm a bit concerned about MS' tactics, as it seems they're relying a bit too much on third parties instead of doing like Nintendo and Sony are doing; trying to create new and original games. MS will continue selling well in the hardcore segment, but I'm not sure if a SingStar copy, Mii ripoffs and the rumored Wiimote-copy will be enough to woo the coveted "casual" segment over, as it's nothing that isn't available on the other two consoles.

@Jagzthebest:
You said pretty much everything I wanted to say. Although I have to disagree on the slightly inferior tech part. 360 and PS3 are pretty even AFAIK. 360 has a slightly better GPU and memory that's easier to program for, while PS3 has a theoretically better CPU and faster memory (IIRC).

Combichristoffersen

oms sony innovatated with tech ppl!
Cell is innovatation
having a Blue Ray was evolutionary
THe XMB was in the PSP, which came out before the Xbox 360

Having a complete console with wifi, 4 USB Ports, and even their original controller was completely original!!! as a whole

Sony resorted to six axis coz they could not use rumble and people did not like the banana controller which was completely original, due to immersion but, they had to add value to the controller, the six axis was developed six years before it was actually made they annnonced the six axis it at a opportunistic time! Why do u think it took so litle time to change the ps3 controller

Sony has Been creating the most new 1st party original games in 2007-2008, even if some were flops, Not Mario or Halo, or Perfect Dark etc... Gears of war is third part btw!

Gaming is a cut throat industry by the way, innovation can only get you so far. If u fall behind you get devoured.BTW Nintendo is not original at all, they are masters of presentation, the wii has been done many times before, just not in a appealing way.

StrifeHawkins

@Jagzthebest: I agree with some of the things you said! But I don't recall making false statements... I agree that all they want is to make money, and brand loyalty is really a thing of the past as even developers drop their favorite console to seek out a more profiting market... I don't agree that MS *just* copies but that's subjective as to what you consider copying so I won't even get into that again... I hate the way MS works, I hate their OS and I hate their MO because what they do is, like you said, "They see what is successful, and either buy it or copy it."! Watch "Pirates of Silicon Valley" to see what I mean! And that's why I only use Apple computers in my household! But I look at the 360, even with all its flaws, and I see an amazing game catalog! And I know a lot of people se Blu-Ray as an advantage and all that stuff that the PS3 has but to me, as a gamer, I'm only interested in games and, to me, the 360 offers the best lineup!
But that's beside the point! They all copy the hell out of each other and that's why we have these fantastic consoles today! It's a good thing! It's just not criticizable (if such a word even exists)!

henri1kk

Jeez.. comments are getting a bit too n4G for me..

Anyway, what i'll say is.. RIP YOUR OWN MUSIC.

My god, that'll bring people in, in DROVES.

[as long as it works well, of course]

MS sure know how to cover bases.... mean, the whole point is to make money, have the most sales - you going to begrudge a compay for taking successful ideas and then doing them better to get the marketshare? Jeez, you'd think you naysayers had never heard of an open market economy.

There's no holy ground being dessicrated(sp) here, just companies doing better than eachother to earn your golden nuggets. You should be happy that MS have come in to this market more gamer focused than i've ever seen from a japanese company and also ensuring that they're trying to get all the best of breed games and features out there to give their customers the best.

Whereas nintendo's happy maknig green on everything they sell so they have no need to push forward and Sony are more interested in getting their own bastard technologies into people's houses for royalties, and being arrogant about their fanbase.

MS is working hard for your dollar, do not mistake that one bit.

edhe (xbl)

@henri1kk: All I'm trying to do is help the situation here since its Kotaku, not fanboywars.com so please don't point out false stuff. All companies, Sony, Ninty etc are there to make money. Its just the way Microsoft do things. Sony have had their fair share of criticisms, especially lieing and stuff. But at least they made some innovative ads

+ Watch video

What has Microsoft done? Made soem canadian shit that tells parents to buy a 360 to look cool. I mean, they're whole policy is just wrong, they're monopoly and bullying practices,

[en.wikipedia.org]

Why am I blabbering one? The point is, they don't try.

They just don't try!

They copy, rebrand and hope it sells. No improvements. They see what is successful, and either buy it or copy it. Its just this bigotry of a powerful company that's well, so arrogant, that it can do what it wants cos it has so much money. Even Sony was arrogant, but they paid the price for not having a successful launch. They though brand loyalty would win. Microsft will pay the price too.

Look everywhere. Halo 3 was Halo 2 with a new coat of paint. They relied on sheer hype and marketing sponsorship to make it a big launch. You don't even see that kind of stuff for movies. What happened after its launch? People forgot about it and are moving on.

All companies can be criticised. Its just Microsoft are the worst. They just "Jumped in" so to speak, in the console gaming market hoping to dominate to, as Bill Gates was known to have been worried by the rise of gaming as a medium. They then sought purchasing companies, i.e Rare, to become successful, but ended losing 4 billion with the first Xbox.

Realising their mistakes, they rushed the Xbox 360, and not only is it wgetting its assed whooped by nintendo in sales and by Sony in Europe and for its slightly inferior tech, but its RROD.

It is doing the worse in my eyes, and they are trying their best. Their last hope? To copy.

Jagzthebest

Don't forget people... Kotaku still bans people. This comment thread is edging into ridiculous. I swear some posters are beginning to foam at the mouth. Control your hate and try to keep from spamming. There's no reason to become so emotional about something that you put yourself into the radius of the hammer.

okenny :)

@Combichristoffersen: It's a great game! A little weird when you're all alone but awesome when you're with your friends at a party! :D That's why I'm really excited about this! If MS doesn't screw it up and if they introduce something original in the game I'll be buying it for sure!

henri1kk

@henri1kk:
Ah, OK. I thought your name was a reference to Henrik (which is a Scandinavian male name), that's why I assumed you were Scandinavian :D

SingStar is a great concept, actually. It appeals to casual gamers just as much as hardcore gamers (fess up self-professed hardcore gamers; you've played SingStar and you enjoyed it). It's a type of game that would probably sell tons if it was released for the Wii (in fact, I'm quite surprised Nintendo hasn't released something like SingStar yet).

Combichristoffersen

@Combichristoffersen: I'm Portuguese ;) but yeah, even in my little country Singstar's the RAGE!!

henri1kk

Holy flamewars, can you all get a room somewhere? While reading through the comments I completely forgot what the article was about!

I hope this is really well done, because I really like the idea of karaoke with friends, ever since Rockband came out. I'm really excited for the music ripping feature. No need to sing old rock songs anymore. suh-weet!

TheHun

@Jagzthebest: This one is awesome as well.

+ Watch video

It talks about how there's a life where you only hurt somewhere in your soul, you can life a thousand lives, and cry with no tears. The motto's "one life is not enough."

Ruglia

@slomo788: Dude, yeah! Copying is great! Without copying I wouldn't have the Wii Shop Channel and you wouldn't have the PS Store, something that didn't exist last-gen! Or the Wii-Menu, Trophies and in-game XMB! Copying makes the overall gaming experience that much pleasant on every system! I don't agree that MS "leeches without seeding" as I've stated a number of features that are available on Wii and PS3 that originated on the 360! But I do agree that they copy a lot, I'd just say they copy as much as the other two! But that's subjective to each person's point of view! Yeah, there are a lot of original games on the PS3, as there are original games on the 360, but on the MS console they belong to the same genres, which becomes repetitive but not unoriginal! I think we'll see great things from all consoles this gen and in the next one all will have learned from their mistakes and we'll have one hell of a battle!

henri1kk

@Jagthebest
Ur a meanie!!!
Have a ban sandwich
grrrrrrrrr

StrifeHawkins

@Ariance:
Little Big Planet, Afrika and that gardening game for the PS3.

As for the 360.. uhm.. that Banjo-Kazooie game, maybe? But it's an esyablished franchise, so..

Wii Fit and Wii Sports for the Wii.

Might be some more games on PSN, Live and Wiiware, but I dunno about them.

Combichristoffersen

@Ungruntled:
"Call of Duty 4 .. makes all other FPS's look stupid"

I call shenanigans on this. The last really good FPS games were Blood, Duke Nukem 3D and the original Quake.

I'm getting old :(

Combichristoffersen

JESUS, this is crazy. Allow me to summarise: SingStar is great, Lips is a blatant copy, sure, but who cares? Haze is naff, Halo was boring, nobody wins apart from Call of Duty 4 which makes all other FPS's look stupid anyway; and thank Christ it was on both systems. You likes what you likes and you hates what you hates; if you are American, chances are you love the 360, anywhere else, probably PS3, and if you're a non-gamer, then you have a Wii but don't use it much because it's a passing fad that you bought because you thought it might attract girls to your pad. At the end of the day, all these arguments are silly, because all consoles are fun and I've got the biggest willy anyway. Learn to cope and move on.

Ungruntled

RIP Kotaku - you've been killed by console fanboys.

Captain Impulse

@Captain Impulse:Agreed. Truly a sad day.

Gray665

@slomo788: Your points are awful. Sony has copied much worse than Microsoft relocating their white/black buttons.

karasu is my homeboy

@Patient: Can these people ever come up with an idea of their own?

Yes, they can. It's called XBox Live. Maybe you've heard of it.

Consoles having a hard drive, too.

There is no gaming company that doesn't rip off other game companies. Get over it.

KaneRobot

Can these people ever come up with an idea of their own?

Patient

@Combichristoffersen: You are right about Duke Nukem 3D. That was one heck of a game. I never played Blood enough (only than the demo), but the original Quake... as much as I loved it at the time, for it was the first "proper" 3D FPS and I was stunned by it, but it's not stood the test of time too well. Although the deathmatch was- and still is- excellent. I spent hours modding it with Star Wars and Transformers bots... ah, bliss. But CoD4... well, that's just something else. For me, they got the controls so, so right and every other FPS now feels "meh".
Glad you didn't dispute my big willy claim though... thanks for leaving me that one...

Ungruntled

@lionkitten: (Especially if you can secretly record your friends!)

Planning on blackmailing someone? ;)

Captain Impulse

"ElGatoMalo:As a multi-console owner, I can definitely point to the fact that in this generation, there are two "innovators" above and beyond others. Nintendo and Microsoft."

Did this Monkey just say Microsoft and "Innovator" in the same sentence??
He seems to think FPS were invented on Xbox or something, and Haze was published by Ubisoft and developed by Free Radical you stupid dipsh*t.
Nothing to do with Sony at all.

Look at Sony's 15 year history in the game arena, pushing new formats every console CD, DVD, Blu-ray.
First to have innovative products like SingStar and Eye Toy.

What a stupid idiot.

imaballa

@slomo788: Triggers? HDD? Live?
Whoop-dee-do!

PS2 brought HDD first before Xbox in year 2000.
Triggers? That's like saying Playstation had the first dual analog sticks.
and concept of Live is not new, ever heard of a huge game called SOCOM on PS2?

Yes, Live is a huge improvement to the network on the PS2, but hardly, hardly, innovative.

You gotta admit Sony by far has done more innovative things for the gaming industry than Microsoft.

imaballa

@KaneRobot: Again, XBL and HDDs were brought last gen and MS just had to look at PCs to see how they could improve on consoles. Nothing revolutionary, but they still came up with it first so I'll hand it to them. For the 360, MS just look at what worked on other platforms, blatantly copied them and patched a stupid name on them next to the [ONLY ON XBOX360] and announced them with a victorious grin almost saying "Eureka!" It's wrong. It's. WRONG!

slomo788

@karasu is my homeboy: After all these posts you still don't get it. OK I'll say it one more time especially for you. Copying is good, but copying only is not. Kay? MS brought Live, triggers and HDDs to consoles LAST GEN. This gen, they improved on that, bought as many exclusives as they could and copied the rest. Oh and they came up with Viva Pinata. Therefore they are copy machines, and I don't like replicas. So I bitch, as a 360 owner who respects himself, and expects more than PS2 versions of games on his 360. And if you want to say but "X copied Y and Z!" just realize that X also brought new things to the table, as a good player.

slomo788

"Alright everyone calm down, calm down shut your pieholes, make way, make way, hammer coming through!"

Jagzthebest

@StrifeHawkins: lol calm down

Jagzthebest

@imaballa: Not exactly a piece of shit, just that MS didn't try at all this gen.

slomo788

@slomo788: ah, I see your basically saying Xbox 360 is a piece of sh*t, okay I'm in agreement.

imaballa

@imaballa: LOL. You got me rolling on the floor. Don't you see the point I was trying to make in my earlier 50 comments? HDD was hardly used for gaming so I didn't even mention it. Triggers... Whatever. Live? I mentioned Socom many times on this thread and they replied "Live standardized it." Yes i'm admitting Sony has, and that's precisely what I've been saying all day.

slomo788

The missus keeps asking me to buy her a PS2 just for the SingStar games, so I'm hoping that this rumour is true (since it would save me some coin). I'm not entirely sure why, but SingStar is stupidly popular here in NZ and Australia.

J-Fro

@KaneRobot: What planet are you from?

You honestly think that XBox Live is a Microsoft innovation?
Have you ever heard of a Dreamcast or Playonline?

Playstation HDD Released: July 2001.
XBox released: November 2001.

Please do a bit of research before posting Spaceman.

Patient

@slomo788: Wow, they sure are incredibly successful for a compnay that didn't try at all.... You need to keep your fanboyism in check though. You guys have ruined this thread and many like it. :(

Lips sounds really good and if the mics work for Rock Band (or at least part 2), then I will definitely get it. I have a hard time imagining Lips debuting as a better product than Singstar PS3 though, so my purchase decision hinges on that microphone compatibility.

eastx

@Patient: Yeah, I can see how PlayOnline was revolutionary. /sarcasm

Captain Impulse

@karasu is my homeboy: @karasu is my homeboy: @karasu is my homeboy: @karasu is my homeboy: Then why don't u hope that Microsoft copies Sonys Blu-Ray & Cell Processor so we all can shut up and be happy!!!!!

The Karate Kid

@slomo788: A super minor point, as I don't feel like getting into the fanboy flaming occurring from tons of people in this thread, but I'm seeing quite a few people crediting MS with the creation of the console FPS market. Has everyone forgotten that the N64 virtually pioneered console FPS'? Goldeneye and The first two Turoks were some of mine and my friends' favorite games to multiplayer, and Goldeneye's still hugely loved by tons of gamers. MS may have saturated the market with all manner of FPS', but the N64 brought them to consoles successfully first.

@Combichristoffersen: I've never played Singstar, so all I know of it is that it's a singing game, but doesn't the Wii already have a (Non-Harmonix-developed) Karaoke Revolution, and didn't Boogie and the High School Musical games come with mics (So I'm assuming there must be some singing in them)?

And just to be a smartass, MS didn't actually innovate massive console failures with the RRoD. Sony had them beat on that market with the famed DRE long ago. :P I've gone through about 3 different PS2's cuz of that issue. :\

NinjaMarion

@Captain Impulse: Absolutely it was.

It was the first console based Network community that was actually successful.
Chat, EMail, Games, Downloadable content, Avatars, Online Support Center, etc etc.

Japanese people do not really own PCs as much as in the States for instance, especially at the time. Playonline allowed people that did not have computers to meet others, chat, use email and play together... on a $200 PS2.

I know your single braincell sarcasm sounds clever and all, but to say that 500,000 people communicating and interacting on a console was not revolutionary at the time.. well it kind of makes you look stupid. =\

Patient

This is pretty unnecessary. Microsoft really doesn't need its own Singstar. However, it is easy to see why this came about. Since the 360 is doing poorly in Europe right now and the PS3 is winning and Singstar is insanely popular in Europe... you can figure out the rest from there.

Samos42

@NinjaMarion:
I'm not sure about Karaoke Revolution and High School Musical, but you're right that Boogie is a singing game. Thanks for reminding me, as I'd forgot about those games :)

Combichristoffersen

@Ungruntled:
Blood was awesome, much due to it being a more.. how to put it.. intellectual FPS game than most of its brethren at the time (it had numerous references to horror writers like Lovecraft and Poe and horror movies), and it also had a darker and more cynical wit to it than Duke 3D. Great game. Too bad the sequel sucked ass.

As for Quake, the graphics haven't aged that well, I'll give you that. But I think the first Quake is the only really enjoyable game in that series (I prefer the horror/fantasy fantasy setting of the original Quake over the scifi-setting of the later games).

I found pics of your willie on the web, so I'll not dispute tour claim ;D

Combichristoffersen

The moment you become a follower you are not a leader anymore. That is you Microsoft.

gencid

Haha, you silly fanboys (or whatever labels you guys keep making up). I'll stick to playing games and ignore these silly comparison squabbles. When you wanna join the gamer community and leave the fanboy internet rants, give us a call... we'll be playing some games. ;)

Can someone point me to a site where the comments are actually directed at 'games' and not fanboy squabbles, industry e-penis comparisons, etc. I like games, but no one seems to really talk about the games themselves here.

Guess it might be time to move on from Kotaku as a gamer community site, and relegate it to a standard news shoveler...sigh.

iNime

"
Lips is said to include 30 songs, but will let gamers use their own music ripped from a CD or iPod. The game will drop recorded vocals in uploaded tracks, letting players sing along and be scored by their tune-holding ability. Lips will also let you add lyrics to uploaded tracks.
"

I honestly always wondered why singstar didnt do this, it's really not that hard to do. I'm sure its all about sony's fucking antipiracy paranoia

cnas

@karasu is my homeboy:

LOL Sony made console and MS copied. end of your discussion.

GimmeCat

[www.computerandvideogames.com]

this is appropriate... Sony was voted most innovative company, (apple at 2) Microsoft were at 3 and Nintendo at 7!
Seriously though, they all innovate... they all use each others ideas though, it's called progression... if one company come up with a good idea... the others aren't just gonna sit back, their gonna fight back... i mean come on guys competition is good! Without it we would just be lying under shovelware!

lol anyway... lips? somehow i don't think it will hook as many people as singstar has already in Europe...

scuba2steve

Karaoke is a pretty important product for them to do for Europe. Singstar is big there.

wheezo

@imaballa: HDD didn't come out in America until 2004. But you win with that because it came out in 2001 in Japan (JULY 2001). Not 2000.

Plus PS2 didn't have the first online. It was the SNES and Genesis (X-Band, anyone?)

So really, everyone copied X-Band.

Unlocked everyone in Brawl!

Yikes, all this bitterness over one new game? Really?

Wolfers

so...Rock Band without guitars?

Talleh

whats with all these microsoft fanboys, just because a feature came out on the 360 first and the ps3 added something similar doesn't mean they're copying them. geez grow up

JackDaniels19

@ElGatoMalo: "All MS is trying to do is offer the same amount of fun for their users."

That's all well and good, but for people who don't own a 360 it does very little to encourage a purchase. Like people in this thread have been writing, it seems as those Microsoft is trying to counter what Nintendo and Sony have instead of creating a new element to attract new users. In other words, this is great for those current owners who want something like this, but the rest of us just shrug our shoulders.

And I'm sort of trying to understand how LIVE is innovative. It's an excellent service to be sure, but it's not innovative. The only innovation in gaming I've seen is Portal, echochrome and LittleBigPlanet (and the jury is still out on whether that lives up to promises).

Replica23

@Talleh: Or "So...Karaoke Revolution without the...wait. Exactly Karaoke Revolution."

Rock Band didn't invent the videogame singing craze. In fact, its singing is taken almost directly from the Karaoke Revolution series (With the addition of percussion, since these songs are for whole bands, so there are chunks that have no singing for awhile).

NinjaMarion

@slomo788: PSN is nowhere close to XBL, and at this rate it never will be. Also, there were HUGE advancements in XBL between the XBox gen and the 360 gen. Either you never had an original XBox, or you are forgetting that while XBL was hugely innovative for that console cycle, it did not have nearly as many features as XBL on the 360 now has. Since you are very new to the 360 yourself, and probably have not developed much of a friend's list yet; you probably aren't even aware of everything that is possible with XBL. However, even with just a few friends on your list, a quick glance should be enough to show that it is giant leaps beyond PSN.

robinandtami

@cnas: I'd say it has more to do with getting users to spend money on more tracks than anti-piracy. Why would you want your users to be able to add as much music to the game as they want, for free, when you can charge them on a per-song basis like Singstar PS3 does?

I'm not sure I see how appealing being able to upload your own tracks would be anyways. It isn't like they'll include videos or lyrics.

teekun

@teekun: Yeah, without any competition on the field, thats a viable thought. However that also costed them the whole idea to microsoft unless they act quickly now.

About the lyrics, it says u can insert your own lyrics, this might take alot of time, but if u are planning a get-together and you want to sing your own songs, that's not too hard.

And as for the background videos, well it wont be just a black background obviously, but probably you can select within a few backgrounds to fit with the song genre or something

cnas

@KingBroly: Sing Star has two microphones. This is for duet. On PS2 the microphones are incompatible with the other karaoke game mics.

mzs

@imaballa:
STOP ALREADY, nothing is origianl just play the damn games and systems and stop the bickering already. IT"S STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, does anyone else think these "leaks" are just MS people throwing stuff out there for the masses!??????????????????????????????????????

freespeech