@Buttah: I think this Robbie guy is missing the point. Imagine where the 360 would be if it didn't have such faulty hardware....

Same position the PS2 had when it had a bad case of DRE's? At least Microsoft admits to the problem right away and solves it for free. Where as Sony only admitted to DRE's at the end of it's lifespan. People had to pay for it to get fixed before. That should volumes as to who has the better customer service.

NoBullet

My launch 360 has never had a problem. I feel bad for everyone that has had a problem and honestly hope that mine, if it does break, does so before the warranty expires. But, to be honest, I've gotten great service out of MY 360.

DARTH_TIGRIS

"Our system is a piece of shit, but you people are so stupid you keep buying them so who cares?"

Douchebag

WarlordPayne

@ChaosWolf: Were you a happy PS2 owner?

Xiedo

Point taken, Robbie.

My launch day 360 lasted until Viva Pinata. A free, new replacement came in 3 days later (insane service).

That replacement unit died this past spring. It got the E74 error (or whatever it was). MS wanted $100 for it so I just bought an Elite.

The idea of just getting a PS3 or relying on the Wii for my gaming habit....it just doesn't do it. Between Live and the software available, I just can't go without my 360.

GorbyGipper

Fair enough. But I need my car to get to work to make money to buy my games. I need my game system to waste my free time.

ChaosWolf

In a way, he's right. If my system breaks down I'm just going to ship it off to Texas and wait around, no biggie. Thanks to various deals and whatnot I've saved a bloody fortune on the thing, which is pretty much the sole reason I'm not ranting and raving like a loon.

Still, if he believes his own hype, he's also missing out on a few things. While I may be somewhat complacent towards the fact that most of my 360 hardware dies randomly on me while only demonstrating minor to moderate use [360 itself, 1st party wireless controllers, Halo 3 wireless headset], Microsoft just pushed itself into Sony's position in my wallet's heart. Come the next generation I'm waiting at least two years before picking up "the next big thing" because I'm tired of all of this rigmarole.

First-Chair

@ChaosWolf: My car brakes. Does that count?

everybest

Saying shit like this just makes me sad for my gaming peers. The one and only reason I don't own a 360 is because anyone who knows anything about it upon purchase expects it to break. None of these companies give a shit about you and are only in it for the profit but I refuse to support MS until they fix it, prove they have fixed it, and promise with there fingers crossed they won't do it again. Call me a pretentious take-the-high-road asshole but allow me to make one point. Name another moderately expensive consumer item you would purchase if you knew it was going to break. Perhaps I'm the only one who doesn't need to play every great game out there.

ChaosWolf

It's easy to interpret what he said...

"On the one hand everyone is working on it, on the other no one is dedicated to it."

Syco Killer

It's definitely a testament to how great the 360 library is. I am held hostage by Ninja Gaiden. And physically abused by Halo.

But it's not, like, any reason to go "yay, RROD."

Xiedo

The RROD issue is the sole reason I don't want an xbox360 right now. Too much of a pain in the ass... and yes I'm lazy :P

ghostadv

Is it weird that that "On the one hand, it's everybody [...]" makes sense to me?

Like they don't have an official development team but are taking ideas from departments as a wishlist and future goals?

.endejas.

My Xbox broke nearly eight weeks ago, on the day GTAIV came out, and I still don't have it back despite the fact that I called Microsoft immediately when it happened.

It took them three weeks to get me a usable shipping method (first box went to the wrong address, second and THIRD boxes had un-scannable shipping labels) and then when I finally managed to ship it they just fucking lost it. I paid a hundred bucks for this shitty service, too (non-red ring failure).

I'm so pissed at them, but they're supposedly over-nighting me a new one either today or tomorrow. It seems like they could have done this a week or two after May 22ng when they lost it, but noooooo...

If it wasn't such a great console (when it's actually working) I'd've said 'fuck it' weeks ago...

DOC409

His comment about the RROD issue not hampering anyones opinion of the 360 kind of makes his costumers sound like mindless sheep that will take any sort of shit.

Battered Wife Syndrome indeed. I know people who have gone through it at least twice and act as if its normal to go through them like toothbrushes. It's sort of ridiculous.

bobeotm

Oh my god, it's his twin!

everybest

I doubt mine will RRoD since it's a new model. But I feel for people with older models. All of my Nintendo products break all the time. It sucks having to send them in. Also, somebody needs to tell this guy that "respect" isn't part of the picture. I just have over 200 hours on Oblivion, and I don't have a gaming PC to play TF2 or Mass Effect.

BigShell

@silkylove: Disagree - with the alarming rate of failure Xbox 360s have, having somebody run their mouth like that just makes it worse.

At least when Nintendo insults your intelligence they're not doing it while they accept your unit back to get repaired for the 4th time.

evslin

@enewtabie: again?? that sucks man.

jun581

I have to say that my experience with their customer service was pleasant. When I got the RRoD, I called and got a coffin within 2 days, no hassles involved, sent it out and got it back exactly one week later. Now of course I would have preferred to not have my Xbox break down in the first place, but at least they were prompt and professional about taking care of my problem.

PhantomVI

Are there any others out there still on their first one?

Nov 06 buyer... Though...it occasionally opens the disc drive during movies and games... But all around no complaints to be taken too seriously.

Mesren_Makai

@LittleBigPlaneteer (Follow me!!): I was just going to say that....it's like a crazy case of battered women syndrome. Like those stupid teenage girls who have the abusive, cheating jock boyfriends but still put up with their shit. I, for one, am glad for the stability of my ps3, but hey, that's why I'm kinda a fanboy ;-)

jpneiswi

Ehhh...I wouldn't say "respect".

I'd say "Sonnava bitch sent me $400 plus in the hole! I'm not letting that slip!"

Mesren_Makai

@aka Bitter: I dunno, working at a gamestore I've seen next to no issues since before last Christmas when they were supposed to have put in the Falcon model chipset or whatever. Since then I haven't had a customer return a single one or have any kind of real issue with a system that they've talked to us about at least. I bought the Halo 3 model around then and it has worked like a dream.

fearing

A lot of 360 owners are like wives who get beaten by their husbands, but still love them. Yeah sure thing Robbie, taht's a real sign of "respect".

This guy might just be more idiotic than Reeves if he keeps up his latest pace.

LittleBigPlaneteer (Follow me!!)

@aka Bitter:

Haven't been following the sales charts have you?

US the strongest xbox 360 region sales with the ps3 are about dead even each month.

Most people who don't own an xbox 360 when asked about if they are interesed in buying it state a flat out no. Reason giving is due to the stories of RROD. That fiasco permently damaged their reputation.

Yetanotheruninspiredscreename

@aka Bitter: All rumors point to the Jasper model getting a release on the first week of September.

But yeah, Sony seems to have a lot more momentum going for it right now.

almostexactly

I think this Robbie guy is missing the point. Imagine where the 360 would be if it didn't have such faulty hardware....

Buttah

Microsoft needs to have another Xbox by next Christmas... Whether it's an improved model that solves the current issues with the console or a completely new device doesn't really matter. Otherwise they are fighting a losing battle for market share against Sony and risk losing some of the gains they have made this generation.

aka Bitter

@Kaizuden:
I will say the repair time is fast. They received mine on Friday and I had it back Tuesday.I couldn't believe it.

enewtabie

I just got a RROD on mine.... but then it goes back to normal not knowing if it wants to die or not. However even when it's sent off I'll be in a little boredom pool, since my main game library consists of the 360's offerings. But what I am glad to see is the steps (Slowly however) to get everything fixed to a 65 nm GPU/CPU and a GPU re-design.

Kaizuden

It's true, there's a bit of Stockholm syndrome in owning a 360. Last July, my third 360 overheated and Red-Ringed. In frustration, I sold the 360 and games and bought a PS3. I still regret the decision. I would rather have gotten more Red Rings, sad to say. I'm enjoying the PS3 more now, but it's a statement to the quality of the 360.

InsidiousTuna

I don't think I'd put up with the technical problems as much as I do now if the PS3 had more than a couple of good games out for it.

cL9

It kind of makes me sad, from a consumers point of view, that its gotten to the point where people purchase this console KNOWING it is probably going to RROD and go ahead with the purchase. Its kind of like saying "Hey, we know you guys made lousy hardware that'll inconvienciance us, but we'll buy it. its okay, we don't mind".

Not cool. :(

ryivanV2

His response to the question about low maufacturing yields prior to the launch is telling: 244 words to say pretty much nothing. Pure exec waffle. He denies they knew about it going in, but 8bitjoystick's interview [www.8bitjoystick.com] last year would beg to differ...

He's right about loyalty though. If my 360 RROD'd (and it hasn't, even after two years of heavy use) I'd wait for it like it was Godot. I'd buy a new one if it was out of warranty. I love the games too much. Games are the new crack.

freakout

In the next generation of Xbox Microsoft will improve on the Red Ring of Death, they will create something much better and a lot more unstable. They'll call it: The Internal Combustion of Death.

suya123

"On the one hand, it's everybody. On the other, it's nobody."

I think Bach has a case of split personality syndrome...

Krondonian

Wow nobody can say nothing like him.

hk458

or they just want the 300$+ investment to actually work....

Detre

"On the one hand, it's everybody. On the other, it's nobody."

I could totally be a marketing wiz! All I'd have to do is say stuff like "Product X will be a technological leap forward from Product Y and also that Product X is bigger than a mouse and smaller than a 747." Also, saying stuff like "Product X will be Round, but Square. Tall, but Short. Left, but more Right. Fun, but also More Fun!"

See, bam! 5 Mil a Year (Plus Pension and Severance Pay!)

Salen

Interesting interview. Some real ambiguous statements there. That motherfucker KNOWS his shit about vagueness.

Grinman

Wow, this is stupid. Not quite as stupid as the Nintendo of Europe guy's "Geeks and Otaku" statement but it's close.

silkylove

In a way,Bach is exactly correct.My 360 that just came back last Tuesday from a RROD,just got a 2 red light for overheating last night.I'm sending it off next week to be repaired again and I'm ready to get it fixed.Although,I imagine I can't keep this up.I emailed MS and told them I needed a newer unit as this one seems to have issues if they can't fix it.I'm not giving up,but it is certainly disheartening.

enewtabie

Uh, maybe he should check the numbers again.

The PS3 is now outselling the 360 according to monthly NPD numbers, and the PS3 costs more money.

Consumers are choosing quality, whether MS wants to believe it or not.

fenderfuel08

riiiiiiight.. On my third 360. At this point I just have it because I paid for it. But I guess that's what they tell themselves so they can sleep at night.

SofaKingHI

I think he's discounting the ridiculous amount of negativity aimed towards PS3 - the alternative - via Wii60 economics, that has led to people putting up with shit hardware rather than pay for a more expensive (back then), but more reliable piece of hardware. The current justification is now 'no PS3 games', though it would've had those games if people had supported it earlier. Said anti-PS3 'gamers' have largely caused their own problem. Any PS3 library problems have come from the market itself. People talk about development issues, but if the markets there, they'll pump out any old shit and not care.

The fact remains. A lot of 360 gamers were just too fucking cheap to buy a PS3, and as a result the 360 has a substantially better library. Any peripheral excuses are just horse shit.

Cue denials.

Bergerac

How are customers being loyal? They don't pay a thing for the repairs, why would they not keep their 360s. Without the warranty extension, if people had to pay for repairs, you can bet your sorry ass that many 360 owners would have jumped ship after their second or third RROD.
It's not loyalty when you're paying for it, Robbie.

Antiterra - No Country For Old Snake

so has anyone ever had rrod with the elite. ive had mine since christmas and no problems yet

Spacehog85

lol funny, everytime I send in my Xbox I curse out the non english speaking person on the other line and I demand that they give me a free game for my troubles.

IMarcus

@bobeotm: "His comment about the RROD issue not hampering anyones opinion of the 360 kind of makes his costumers sound like mindless sheep that will take any sort of shit."

No. No, it doesn't.

The fact is, when they work, they work splendidly. It's a great system with a great library. For most, that experience far outweighs the momentary nuisances.

justhesh

@jun581:
Yeah..kinda sucks.Still haven't finished GTA4 yet.

enewtabie

Luckly for me, my 360's still working, knock on wood, and I hope it does until October for Ghostbusters.

Still, it would've been better if RRoD never happend, cause I honestly don't want a PS3.

Ashkihyena

I wonder how much Microsoft spends on fixing RROD machines.

Hmmm, more importantly I wonder if Microsoft might actually MAKE money out of RROD machines. Several people have stated already that they would buy a new 360 if they couldn't get theirs back.

There's something to be said for releasing second-rate electronics.

Quilt

I think this month's NPD are a sign for things to come. More units of GTA were sold on 360, but a bigger proportion of the PS3 install base bought the game, and GTA got more people to pick up ps3's than 360's. EVEN WITH THE PROMISED DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT on 360.

The point being, microsoft should learn from the past and not take the devotion of the install base for granted. Being complacent and simply assuming that people will mindlessly follow is the reason sony is in third place right now. But given this month's NPD's (and whats sure to be next month as well) it might not be third place for long.

bobeotm

I'm on my third 360 (fourth if you count the one I traded in for the HDMI version). Two red rings later and it's still my favorite system (I own all three). Yes, the hardware design is faulty. Yes, they are taking care of the customer. Yes, the games are the best of the current crop in my opinion.

Can't wait for Fallout 3 and Fable 2.

billnabors65

I sent my Elite off for repair on the 3rd of March and didn't get it back until the second week of April.

Heyyou27

What he's really saying here is that the customers are buried under a pile of money in games and in 3 to 12 month subscriptions that are still running and so they put up with it because they have to.

The real problem is that the next time these people are going to decide on a console they are going to be unlikely to put up with it.

John Laur

@WarlordPayne: I've been saying this for a long time now.... Gamers have GOT to be the biggest, fattest sheep in the history of consumerism (hmm is that even a word? oh well) Whether its with buying a new 360 after the old one rrod's (or even still supporting MS after it happens in the first place) Or when games are buggy to the point of being unplayable and get fixed AFTER thy've sold them to us (i.e. Assassins creed, Madden, etc). Its all the same.

Video games corporations are gonna keep doing stuff like this as long as they know we'll keep giving them our money regardless of how greatly or how often they screw us over.
And it will continue until WE start to dictate to THEM what
the quality of service standards should be instead of it being the other way around which is whats happening right now...

MightyKAC

I think the xbox360 is like Marlboro 100. It's not good for you except you've gotten it so long you have no choice but continue. It slowly kills you, but you gotta keep going on because you got all these games for it...and live. I mean you wish there was a way out...but too much has been invested.

karateka

This speaks far more to the ignorance of the American consumer then anything else.

I mean, this is the country that allowed itself to fall into the sub-prime crisis. Intelligent consumers, we are not.

Gitaroo_Dude

@OutsideTheBox: How's that working for you?
You can justify the RROD and the way MS treated consumers up until the point of a class action lawsuit by the fact the some Sony units have problems.

Man, now I want to go buy a 360. You make it sound AWESOME!

Techguy1138

He right.
360 owners will put up with things no other device consumer will. The 360 is like a cheap toaster. When one breaks out of warranty a new one is purchased. Completely disposable.

If 360 owners put up more of a fight MS would have fixed the issues as opposed to trying to cover them up for 2 years.

Since the 360 owners don't care neither will MS. With so few consoles sold after two years they really should think about the people who don't own 360s.

Techguy1138

360 RROD made me buy a PS3 (even tho i rarely use 360), I thank M$ for that making me find the light.

darktorns

Robbie Bach will have to eat his words when it is time to unveil the successor to the Xbox 360 and the majority takes a wait and see approach.

Velops

Funny the only talking point PS3 owners seem to bring up anytime someone says "The 360 has a great library," is "But the 360 have the red ring of death" when any system made within last year is pretty much free of the problem. Meanwhile, go over to AVSForum and see lots of people reporting their PS3 refusing to read Blu-ray discs (DVDs are fine) even though they only use it as a movie player. Seems like the PS3 is following in the PS1 and PS2 footsteps where the optical pickups had an obscenely high failure rate in the first hardware revision. Maybe if they have their Hyrdra posters keep saying "RROD" enough times, the problems will magically go away.

OutsideTheBox

I bought my 360 knowing about the problems they were having because by that point the warranty for RRoD had been extended to 3 years and I heard they were pretty quick about console exchanges.
From when my console died until I had a new one at my door took 8 days.
Having the 360 is worth the inconvenience, not to say I don't wish they were problem free, but I'd still take one over a PS3 any day.
Now I have a Wii as well, so the 8 days will be even less of a big deal if I encounter a second RRoD.

VBerg

@IronLord: People choose the 360 for a number of reasons, not just because of the library. The controller, Live, the fact that the console is more popular with friends, etc.

That doesn't mean that it's not, you know, poorly crafted, just popular.

Tomo

@everybest:
I don't about you, but if I were to go out and buy a new car I would expect it to work for more than three months before needing repair.

VishusBurn

@IronLord: Well, Microsoft don't deny you'll be receiving a refurb-- for instance, if you have a model without an HDMI out, you won't receive a replacement WITH an HDMI port. But yeah, I've definitely felt that Microsoft feel like early adopters are just going to continue to put up with cycling through refurbs forever.

@Tomo: Unless policy has changed in the last couple of months, they won't gift you with a newer chipset. That's not procedure for the McAllen center. They've got a stockpile of refurbs-- if yours can't be resurrected, you're getting some other person's zombified 360 every time. And your one month of LIVE and a bonus faceplate, gratis-- I've taken to giving out the bonus faceplates to friends and asking them to decorate them for me, with personal touches, so I can always have a one-of-a-kind 360 for whatever mood I'm in. I've got one with scary- and angry-face stick figures on it for when my system keeps fucking up.

wild homes 5: treyarch attacks!

I have both a 360 and a PS3, and I'm confused by all the people saying "I want a 360 every time, for the library".

Last time I checked, there aren't really very many exclusives for either console - over 85% of the games are multi-platform. Short of Halo, Gears of War, Forza 2 and Mass Effect, I can't think of any games I've played that aren't (or won't be out) for PS3?

If anything, a good chunk of 360 games show up on PCs, whereas the PS3 exclusives are truly exclusive to that console.

@ wild homes 5: FIVE!? Holy crap! You know, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft sends dodgy-repaired 360s to people after a RROD, rather than new model/store shelf units. You've already bought the system and had it break, so you're obviously coming back again. You're "much less important" to sames than the new customers they're trying to grab :)

IronLord

Of course you'll be selling products forever, the fucking things keep breaking down every time someone tries to use it. I've sent my third xbox in, this one for a faulty cd-reader (this happened to my first PS2 as well though so this is a little bit down on the list compared to it just randomly breaking like my first xbox)
I actually asked if I could get my xbox returned with the newer chipset and apparently they said it would be looked at, so hopefully I can keep this one. :(
What I would really like to see in the next generation of 360 consoles is a much much higher commitment to quality and R&D. lots and lots of Q&A as well.

So much Q&A.

Tomo

@OutsideTheBox: And no offense, but the bait and switch doesn't work. I know a couple of people who've suffered faulty optical drives on the PS3, but the failure rate on the first maybe 5,000,000 360s was through the fucking roof. And those owners, by and large, are STILL riding the endless carousel of refurbs. The fact a percentage of PS3s have hardware problems as well does nothing to negate the seriousness of Microsoft's problem with the 360's reliability. When it's time to discuss Microsoft, do so. And when it's time to discuss Sony, do that. But do not try and dismiss one problem by citing the existence of another.

wild homes 5: treyarch attacks!

I've been through five. I'm planning on just buying a new chipset model in the fall. The return process has been fairly painless each time-- and my UPS driver knows me by name-- but Microsoft really need to track users and find out how many times you've been on this goddamn carousel, and after a few times they should provide you a system with a system with a newer chipset. It really is a despicable practice to expect your most loyal fans to simply accept this constant turnabout.

And no offense to Robbie Bach-- I understand he's trying to celebrate the prototypical XBOX owner's loyalty-- but suggesting we know Microsoft will take care of us is just about insulting. I know when my system dies under warranty they're not taking care of me. They're just not fucking me as roughly as they possibly could. That's not exactly brilliant customer service.

wild homes 5: treyarch attacks!

Robbie Bach: The only ones who want working 360's are geeks and otaku.

Saxboy

@D Mitsuki: But no, they are proud of there selves*

is what it should be lol

D Mitsuki

I'm sorry but did he seriously just say

"We're proud of our system that breaks a lot because after peoples breaking they still want to use our product! We think we offer such good service's that its ok if our costumer's products are pieces of crap, as long as we offer good service's, the idiots will just keep coming back because our shit is soooo good!"

Now I like my 360, but it makes me mad for buying one kinda when the Suits up top will spew crap like this instead of saying

"We are truly sorry for the inconvenience and we are going to fix it, and make sure this will never happen to you again. We are sorry for disappointing you, but we will continue to provide you with excellent service's and software, along with excellent hardware in the future."

But now they are proud of there selves for selling bad hardware and the people stayed. My 360 is still young, but if it RRoD's on my twice I may just sell it and save up for a good PC, theres no excuse for the console to STILL have this problem but negligence, which in this statement they just proved to me they were neglecting the fact the consoles were faulty because customers were not leaving, good way to treat your fan's, isn't it.

D Mitsuki

This makes me angry. Especially since I have to send my already repaired 360 in because it just got RROD. Why do these machines only last a year?!

Take a cue from Nintendo. My SNES and N64 still work perfectly.

Onegai

"In the ordinary course of something like this, you would expect it to show up in the customer reaction data. We just haven't seen that. It speaks to the fact that they love their games and Xbox Live."

Which is the primary reason it's never likely to change.

Replica23

@karateka: That's a bit silly, considering the Xbox 360 has some of the best games of this generation of systems. While cigarettes offer nothing of real value. The same can't be said for the 360. There is a lot of gaming goodness to be had in the 360.

And my xbox 360 has yet to experience any serious problems, and I've owned it for nearly a year. I have to wonder how many people abuse their systems by putting them in enclosed spaces, on carpet, on top of a VCR, ect.

Dalren

November is creeping up slowly, which we all know means the end of the 3 year warrenty for those of us with launch consoles and if I were to get the RRoD after that and I would have to pay out of pocket to get it repaired I would definitely "jump ship" for a PS3. Hopefully MS figures it out, quickly.

get2theDeLorean

@Dalren: It's just a matter of time. My friends and I are older players. We take great care of our systems and are sure not to put it in any environment that would hinder airflow or cause overheating problems. an estimated 93% of my xbox360 friends have had theirs red ring. The system is built like crap.

That being said, if it were to happen to me again and it wasn't covered under warranty, I would still buy another one. I do love the system. The only thing that I am slightly interested in on the PS3 is Warhawk. Likewise, the Wii has some fun games, but they are ones I would get bored with quickly.

It's only a matter of time before yours gets the RROD. I hope you have fun eating your words when it happens.

As for Mr. Bach... Kiss my ass, man! Your product is faulty. Own up to it, do something about it and quit fucking your fans. Good games and online services will only hold off peoples animosity for so long after having to deal with multiple broken systems, lengthy repair times and once the extended warranties run out, costly repairs or system replacements.

j13

The funny thing about this is that it's perfectly in line with Microsoft's other business practices. The 360 has done well, despite an atrocious level of reliability, because it was rushed to market (hence this reliability problem) and as such had a larger software library than its competition by the time its problems became evident. Microsoft Windows, an operating system which is in most ways inferior to its competition, is the market leader solely because it also supports a larger software library than other OSes. What would happen to Microsoft if MacOS or Linux could support DirectX or the Win32 APIs? How much better would Microsoft work to avoid or to actually fix the RRoD problem if the PS3 had a compelling software library? Who knows? Without tough competition, and with a user base which will tolerate this level of abuse because they are stuck with Microsoft if they want to be able to play their games, folks like Mr. Bach can spew this sort of bullshit with smiles on their faces.

AtomicPlayboy

@everybest:

sure car brakes count, though its expected of them to eventually break, they're a mechanical object that applies friction to something. but now imagine your brakes wear down 6x faster than other brakes. would you still go with those brakes?

I'll eventually get a 360 because all the rpgs are going there it seems (bastards), though it does make sense, they cost more to make so they want to try and get the most profit they can, but i don't feel the need to have it right now necessarily so i might as well give MS as much time to fix the damn thing as they can.

demonknightinuyasha

it's amazing what xbox owners will put up with, microsoft should come up with a new xbox that actually goes into your wallet and steals your money....i'm sure no one would mind.

gadjet

@ryivanV2: ''its gotten to the point where people purchase this console KNOWING it is probably going to RROD''

That's what every motherfucking forum on earth wants you to believe. Truth is, you don't hear those who have not had problems. I've had problems with my first one because it was from early 2006. It took over a year for it to bust. It took less than 10 days to get the box, sent it and receive it back I've been playing happily ever since.

People who buy new cars sometimes gotta bring their cars to the garage for recalls. ENTIRE runs. Sometimes multiple times. My gf's Volkswagen is at its 2nd. AND IT'S WORTH OVER 20 GRANDS.

I don't see this issue as any different

The only real difference is how everyone is so fucking sour about it and talks about it all over the god damned net.

I'm tired of hearing about it. They honor the warranty.

Get over it people.

interstate78

@AtomicPlayboy: I thought their extension by two years of the warranty and investment of over a billion in support that they announced publicly meant just that.

oh snap!

You won't die playing your 360 whereas recalls for cars MUST be made for the drivers' safety is at risk. Issuing a recall on working 360s would have been just plain stupid.

The thing is (and we see it here in the comments), no matter what they do now you guys won't shut the hell up about it. The most vocals and harsh don't even own one. It's something people just love to talk about. It gives them meat for bashing an otherwise perfectly good console.

interstate78

@interstate78: "I don't see this issue as any different."

Well, it's different because VW will send you a mailer telling you that there is a problem with your car, while Microsoft will spend two years obfuscating the issue, and even now has still refused to disclose the root cause and the rate of failure. This sort of attitude towards customers tends to annoy people who pay for a product, and when the corporate mouthpieces continue to spin like Bach does in this interview, it only makes things worse.

AtomicPlayboy

@gadjet: keep in mind that we also have to put up with a great if not the best library of games, free demos weekly, in game chat, amazing multiplayer and great peripherals. there's a slight chance your 360 will break yes, but there's that chance with anything you buy.

I've had mild problems with my Wii (crashes) and PS3 (freezes) too since I've had them. They continued working though.

You can't expect anything to be eternal and 100% reliable. At least you know that Microsoft will take care of you.

It's not like you're throwing your 300$ in the fire when you buy a 360. You get a LOT from your box and if anything goes wrong, your ass is covered.

interstate78

In honor of this "special" realtionship between Microsoft and 360 customers they should release "Lemmings" to XBLA free of charge.

El-Suave

@interstate78: "Oh snap!" What are you, 12?

Microsoft has indeed attempted to repair the situation, but only after the problem was too big for them to continue to ignore. And even then, they don't even use replacements that they know will actually avoid future problems, as evidenced by the fact that people are returning their consoles more than once. Add to that the fact that they kept as quiet as possible about the Falcon series (you had to search around on the Net to know how to recognize one), rather than just taking the defective hardware off the shelves and replacing it with reliable equipment. I'm sure I'm forgetting other shady business. How is this behavior acceptable?

If you want to drop $400 on a piece of electronics equipment that you are pretty sure is going to require replacement within months or a year of its purchase because of an inherent defect, knock yourself out. If you want to chastise those of us who are reluctant to pay for what you accurately describe as "an otherwise perfectly good console" until after its problems are fixed, that's your choice. But it's sort of strange.

AtomicPlayboy

@interstate78: The problem is the rate of failure is so high, and that a lot of people have gotten it fixed and had to send it back again. And the difference is they didn't recall the 360, and they don't even completely fix it sometimes when its sent in. I have never had a system just die on me (including my 360) and will be pissed the first time it happens, so I just hope it doesn't happen to me. *knocks on wood.*

The problem with what this guy says its he's trying to say its ok the systems were bad because there service is so good, customers will come back anyway. When me, the customer am treated this way, I am royaly pissed, for me, the cost of the 360 is no little amount, and unlike a lot of people, if it RRoD's its impossible for me to run out and buy a new one.

But the biggest reason you hear about only the 360's problems, is because a lot of it is from fanboys who don't even own the console, and just want to try to discredit it. Even so, it would be just flat out ignorant to say they have addressed this problem, yes they extended the warranty, but have they fixed the hardware? That is a big no no, considering the amount of time it has been, you seriously can't just ignore it because you have a warranty on it, which from what this guy is saying, seems like what they have did.

D Mitsuki

@j13: I don't want to come off the wrong way or anything, but if you got money to drop on consoles to replace broken consoles, why don't you just get a gaming rig? Its 100 better then the consoles, and you can even if your controller if your prone to do so, just a suggestion there.

D Mitsuki

My launch 360 died yesterday. Not three red lights died... but definitely died. So I got a Core, kept my harddrive obviously, and then realised I've to be online to play my games. Which sucks massive amounts of bolloxium. (That's a special high-impact chemical residue distilled from the sweat of numerous unwashed sacks.)

Bach says customers "know we're taking care of them".
I feel like they're trying to take care of us in the Sopranos sense of the phrase.
I don't like having to be online just to play the games I've paid for. It makes me feel like I've entered that stage in the protection scenario where they're keeping a really close eye on me.

Muckley

I'm not defending the red rings as it sucks, and it's what's turned me from an Xbox fanatic into an undecided buyer for next gen. I'm definitely waiting a year next gen. Anyway the point is that he wasn't saying that we should take it, he was saying that there was enough compelling content to make people stay with the 360 when it's broke and believes the customer service is good enough to keep people happy. It's not much of an insult and I doubt it's anything wrong that he said. The only thing is people want any excuse to insult the 360 so they use this same topic all the time. It is getting fixed and they have (so I've heard) started sending new 360's to people who's machines break alot.

Llost

This doesn't speak of ANY value of the 360.

It speaks moreso in the ways Sony and Nintendo have screwed up.

The god damned 360 is the best thing we have right now, and that's just plain sad.

Plus, I bet if people could get refunds for Live or Live related items, or such and such, things might be a slight tiny bit different.

otimus

@VishusBurn: @demonknightinuyasha: I know, I know. I was doing a play on words. Brake, break?

everybest

"something Robbie Bach says 'speaks to the power of the product offering and service we provide.'"

Yyyyeah, it could also be considered that your customers have a respectable amount of patience while you lead them around, kicking them in the shins every few minutes and then feigning indifference when they ask you to help them up.

The 360 has some rather serious technical issues, and Microsoft has some rather serious tech support issues, and that guy's smug smile has convinced me only of the fact that they've got their customers by the balls and don't plan on fixing those issues anytime soon. Thanks Microsoft. You really know how to give me that warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

GhostWhoWalks

@Muckley: But you don't have to be online to play the games, I spent over 9 months when I first got the console with no Xbox live and it didn't stop me doing anything apart from playing online. There is no online only game anyway.

Llost

@AtomicPlayboy: @D Mitsuki: I'm just reading nonsense from you guys.

When you buy a 360, you don't lose your friggin' money, THEY REPLACE IT FOR THREEEEE YEARS if something goes wrong.

''f you want to drop $400 on a piece of electronics equipment that you are pretty sure is going to require replacement within months''

What's that? that's rubbish !

Buying a 360 does NOT equate having to send it in. and IF that happens, you're COVERED. for 3 years. That's all I'm saying

If, for example, my Wii or PS3 were to die now. I'm fucked!
Can't even get a PS3 that plays PS2 games anymore. they're gone . So I can't even get the equivalent of what I had.

I feel much safer with my 360's warranty than I ever did with either my ps3 or Wii.

3 years is quite a bit of time in my book.

interstate78

Though his statement is pretty stupid most people should be able to agree that if Sony or Nintendo had the 360s library and services, 360s just wouldn't get sold at all.
Though for me, the main reason I prefer the 360 to the PS3 is the controller. It isn't a big deal to most but I don't like the PS3 controller. Completely irrelevant, I know.

okrangerbob

@interstate78: I don't think my comment was in the same tone of the other guy, all I was saying simply was "Yes its still a problem and theres a reason to talk about it, and they should of maned up to it, but your right it shouldn't be blown to much out of proportion"

D Mitsuki

Well, let's be honest. If the options were "get you Xbox 360 fixed for free" and "get your money back," there'd be a lot of people who would take the latter. I'm sure there'd still be millions of stalwarts, but a lot of people are simply making the best of an absolutely shitty situation.

Additionally, I'd expect the reliability issue to crop up prior to the next iteration of Xbox. A lot of people feel burned by the system's lack of reliability.

Each system has its faults (PS3's Bluray drive is slow and it has a very "eh" lineup, Wii's lack of storage, shovelware and graphical inferiority, 360's reliability and thin pickings for those who don't play FPS or Sports games). I just find myself most disturbed by the lack of backlash for such a lack of reliability.

It really does seem like gamers are simply gluttons for punishment that can be walked all over when something with such an astounding failure rate has such a high adoption rate.

I wonder, though, if a lot of gamers don't have too much invested into the system to simply abandon it. You know, we've come to far to turn back, now.

Me. I keep it for my XBLA games and the future JRPGs. Oh, and this year's Madden since my Browns will actually be respectable for once.

PerswAsian

Flame much?
Anyways heres more kindling.
Xboxers are not addicted to the games, they are addicted to live. The games on the PS3 are totally at par at this point.
This is totally a subjective point here. I believe that its the online interaction and not the games that makes ppl deal with MS royally fucking them. Most ppl who say PS3 needs better games own all the games that went cross platform but own them on the Box because of live an their whore points. Also for god sake ppl check out the down loadable games on ps3, dont assume anything.
I own all consoles and my preference is to the PS3 and the Wii. If Im going online??? its the .360
Its all subjective. Where do u live to spend your time? I prefer the PS3/Wii environments.

CRUNK

@otimus: How does this speak of the ways Sony and Nintendo screwed up? They aren't the ones with the mass dead consoles. All this is, is a PR spin off dead 360s trying to further build owners' inner fanboys.

everybest

@PerswAsian: It's not just a case of people accepting MS's bad reliability since if you look at Europe (the worst treat region) then we are the second biggesr gaming market and mop up Sony's console (kicked from the launch, screwed from BC, crap SKU options, titles like Afrika not coming, pay more etc. etc. et). Why would we buy it if it's got so many kicks to our crotch? Because the bigger picture is the games. The only thin MS lets people down on is reliability and it does well to make up for that elsewhere which is what makes it appealing. PS3 is the same only more reliable and a bit less titles.

I don't see how you can say 360 has 'thin pickings for those who don't play FPS or Sports games' since 360 is the only one with a decent next gen RPG, an exclusive fighting game, as much racers as the PS3 (Forza 2, PGR 3, PGR4 and whatever else) it has platform titles like Naruto, Banjo, Kameo etc. and then wins on FPS. So it's not doing bad.

I do agree with your point on the full refund or free repair though. We'd have a lot less 360's about if that happened. I actually have 17 games for the 360 of which 9 are exclusive (Mass effect, Lost odyssey, Halo 3, Kingdom under fire, Blue dragon, Dead or alive 4, Perfect dark, Naruto and Ninja gaiden 2) so I'd lose almost half my games if my 360 died. I have a PS2 and gamecube but there'd be a lot of games I'd miss if my 360 died so yeah I'm too invested.

Llost

@CRUNK: "Xboxers are not addicted to the games, they are addicted to live. The games on the PS3 are totally at par at this point."

Actually, you're half right. XBL is part of the reason 360 owners love the Xbox, but even the latest side by side tests of the 360 to the PS3 is that the 360 still has a slight edge, but the PS3 is getting closer.

So I don't think its the games being on par as much as they're mostly a non-factor except for the exclusives. Gears of War, Halo 3, stuff like that. After all, the PS3 has shed quite a few exclusives that ended up going multiconsole.

Thats all I wanted to mention.

Salen

@Llost: I must not have explained properly... I do have to be online. If I'm not online, then all my arcade games, that I paid for and own, are listed as Trial versions. And the content I bought for Oblivion and Mass Effect, for instance, does not work. At all. If I then connect to Xbox Live, I can use my content perfectly well, but the content only works while I'm online. This is only a problem now after getting a new xbox. Lady on the phone said, basically, Tough luck.

Muckley

The only reason why I tolerate this crap under my TV is the amazing range of great games Xbox has...

Well, it looks like this is all that matters after all... :-)

Nexus-6

@everybest:
The reason people so happily stick with the darn thing.
It's not because it's some super awesome console.
It's because the competition sucks less than the 360 does.

This gen is horrible.

otimus

yeah but i wonder how many people it led away from the 360 in the first place. when i got my ps3 in march 07, the 360 failure rate didn't have EVERYTHING to do with it, but it made the decision pretty easy for me. with the zephyr chipset coming out in august, i'm only now coming around to the possibility of picking up an elite.

mister_shhh

It's like trying to quit smoking when you've already bought an air cleaner and a bunch of fancy ashtrays and lighters.

Knukleur

On the one hand, Robbie Bach is an idiot. On the other, I'm betting his 360 never got the RROD.

excel_excel

@Yetanotheruninspiredscreename: yeos, i bought a PS3 due to the fact that if i pay for a device i expect it to work.

reading some of the things that tech support has said to 360 owners in the past just cemented the sale for Sony.

Seriously, Sony needs to start paying microsoft, they're doing a great job selling PS3's.

pretty soon the difference between the consoles' software library. will be negligible at best, more of the AAA titles are cross platform or PS3 exclusive.

andrewmedina

There are wayyyyy too many stories of horrible customer service from Microsoft. How many people do you guys know who've sent in Xbox's only for Microsoft to "lose" any info on anything being sent.

DarkNight_DS

@silkylove: I agree. No 360 fan/owner should believe this load of crap. Hardware failure is not only intolerable, its UNACCEPTABLE. If anyone believes what this jackass has to say, then you must be as stupid as this guy. I mean come on......CUSTOMER REACTION DATA? If only you had a camera to record the fucking reactions of all the people who turn on their 360's only to discover that it has Red ringed. Fucking guy...........

LeLoi

say what you want about the PS3, but I couldn't be happier with it, and with Bioshock coming out in October I have absolutely no reason to want a 360 anymore.

gadjet

@everybest:
Awe, I see. My bad. It seems that I've become so used to people irrationally defending faulty hardware with nonsensical similes that I have become desensitized and blinded to subtle and obvious jokes.

What a sad man I have become. Too much internets.

VishusBurn

Dear, Robbie

I have personally gone through 4-360's and had quite an extensive library. But after that 4th time, things just weren't the same, you competition caught up their games were more (or just as appealing) and as a consumer I could not sit idly by while you made comments like this to the sheep like masses. I sold your product, moved on, and have not looked back.

I liked your product (when it worked) but I'm all done with your products for this generation. Better luck on the hardware end next time.

Signed,
A conscientious consumer

-EDGE-

@otimus:
Assuming you meant "It's because the 360 sucks less than the competition does."

Dude; I suggest you go get the MGS4 PS3 bundle, plug it into an HDTV, and actually give it a try before coming to that conclusion. You may be pleasantly surprised.

This gen may be expensive and somewhat confusing, but it most certainly not terrible.

VishusBurn

@otimus:
DDR Max, Ratchet & Clank, RAD, Shinobi, Marvel vs Capcom 2, DBZ Budokai, .hack, Guilty Gear X2, Dark Cloud 2, Xenosaga, Zone of the Enders 2nd Runner, Rayman 3, Amplitude, Primal, Midnight Club 2, Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits, and Silent Hill 3.
and that's JUST the PS2 games that came out in the same timespan of the PS2 as the 360's been out.

Yes.. This gen sucks. It's terribly unvaried, and full of too much god damned multiplayer shooting.

otimus

I'm pretty amazed people are so forgiving of the Xbox360 issues. Returning it once for repairs? Sure. But people returning it 4-5 times? That is taking it in the ass.

Totorototoro

@VishusBurn:
Pffft, this gen is HORRIBLE and SLOW.

By this timespan of consoles last gen, we had
...for PS2:
SSX, Tekken Tag Tournament, TimeSplitters, Rayman 2 Revolution, Zone of the Enders, Dark Cloud, Red Faction, Twisted Metal Black, Gran Turismo 3, Klonoa 2, Spy Hunter, Ico, Silent Hill 2, Guilty Gear X, Devil May Cry, Onimusha GTA3, Capcom vs SNK 2, SSX Tricky, Soul Reaver 2, MGS2, Jak & Daxter, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, Max Payne, Final Fantasy X, Rez, Grandia II, Maximo, Fatal Frame, Virtua Fighter 4, Medal of Honor Frontline, Aggressive Inline, Wipeout Fusion, The Mark of Kri, Onimusha 2, The Thing, Sly Cooper, Kingdom Hearts, Need for Speed Hot Pursuit 2, Burnout 2, TimeSplitters 2, Contra Shattered Soldier, Suikoden III, GTA Vice City, (CONTINUED IN ANOTHER COMMENT)

otimus

I'm sorry but I can feel nothing for those who are on their 3rd, or 4th, etc. There are competing platforms out there as well as the PC.

Papa Midnight

Well, it seems obvious they aren't in a rush to actually fix the hardware issues, and from cold, unsympathetic fiscal perspective, who can blame them? They have you by the balls after your initial investment, most people probably can't afford to just go buy a PS3 right after making this kind of investment, so you're stuck. A lot of people out there aren't aware of the RROD issues when they buy the system, either. Gamestop won't mention it unless you ask directly, and neither will Target or Wal-Mart.I had the first x-box, but I'm holding out on the 360 until it's fixed, or I just won't get one.

ShadowMoses

Well after receiving my fourth refurbished unit last week. I took it and my extensive library of games for a one way trip to the local gamestop. The 360 is like a bad lemon of a car, you can only invest so much before you have to trade it in for a better model. Lets' hope the wii I got will be more reliable.

hanzmoleman007

Bach is ignoring the obvious factor here - yes, 360 owners "don't care" (meaning they will stick with the 360 even though it fails on them), because they have invested in the console.

Where this is going to hurt Microsoft is when their next console arrives. Next to early adopters who must have everything right away, who in their right mind would buy the next XBox without waiting to see what potential issues would be revealed?

KaneRobot

I'm on 360 number 8. my first red ringed 2 months after launch, 2nd didnt work when they shipped it to me, 3rd lasted 3 months then red ringed, 4th wouldnt even cut on, 5th lasted 6 months then the wouldnt read disks so i traded it in 2 weeks before the extended warranty was announced, 5th red ringed 2 months ago, 6th didnt work when it came in, 7th didnt work when it came in, 8th was a brand new model they mailed me that has been a joy so far..... needless to say i own over 100 360 games and have about $300 worth of dlc so im not going to just give up and lose all of that money by not getting it fixed, luckily i have my ps3 and wii to keep my attention when the 360 is being repaired

wesdw369

hmmm makes you think

[img] [rds.yahoo.com] [/img]

Hand_O_Death

Thats like saying that when a person buys a car for $30,000 that they love the company when the fender falls off all the time, yet they don't (can't) buy a new car. I think their lack of sales starting last November speaks volumes about word of mouth on this issue.

GOLD5

I have both systems and I buy ALL multi-platform games on my PS3 simply because I know at some point the 360 will leave me hanging. Plus I refuse to pay for LIVE.

That being said, the -only- game I'll be buying this year for the 360 will be Gears2.

RaepGoblin

Did any of you sticking up for the 360 see my comment?

First: Repair is not just "free for three years". The RROD is covered for three years, everything else is just covered for one. After that, it costs a hundred bucks. I know because I paid it myself back at the end of April.

Second: Their repair system is not bulletproof. I've been without my console for nearly two months now due to gross fucking incompetence and a staunch refusal to make things right by sending me another Xbox.

Fuck Microsoft, gamers should unite behind some sort of class-action suit. If the courts will rule in favor of people who willingly, knowingly paid too much for CD's back in the early 90's, we should get some kind of compensation for spending $400 on faulty fucking merchandise.

DOC409

This blokes a prick. I had 4 of the piles of shit break on me (dvd every time, no rrod). I now own a PS3, so there's your customer loyalty mate. Truthfully I would like to play Gears 2, but on the flip side i'm now playing Metal Gear 4, so life's not all bad is it :)

mooseman721

A lot of people moan about the 360, saying its the only consumer product people buy, when they know there are problems.

The PS2 & PSP had issues at the start, people still brought them in droves.

People buy ipods like crazy, even though the batteries are rubbish, and (like all HDD based MP3 Players), they know the HDD will break at some point.

I still fail to understand why Microsoft havn't made a bulletproof 360 yet, after 2.5 years.

I'll be first in for the next xbox, because i really do believe Microsoft will have learnt their lesson. That said, my tollerance to failure will be 0.

Mr_Ed

I've gone through 3 xboxes because of the RRoD issues. Honestly if it wasn't for the amount already invested in the 360 I would have jumped ship long ago. I'd equate the whole thing to buying a house that is a money pit. You've invested so much initially into the whole thing that you don't want to just cut your losses, but you begin to feel like a sucker each time you invest more money into the thing. I've gone to playing a lot of games I've missed out on the PC in the past 5 years since I finally did a big upgrade last winter.

As for their 360 sell through numbers, I sure with we had a way of knowing how many people either just broke down and puchased another 360 or returned it to the electronics retailer if they also purchased a warranty.

and now.... totally tasteless joke of the day!

Q. What do you tell a 360 owner with 2 black eyes?

A. Nothing, Microsoft's already told 'em twice...

Microsoft's not that bad, you just don't know them like I do...

lostalaska