The major problem is certification. Each time the MMO would want to add new content, or create a patch to fix something they'd have to get it all certified by MS, and Sony which takes a few weeks after the patch has been finished. Not to mention that certification costs a pretty penny. So on consoles your updates are going to cost more, and release slower, and for an MMO that's deadly since by the time you get your patch released your game economy is screwed.

Really the only company that has a chance to make a console MMO are the console developers themselves, and I really don't expect any of the big three to release an mmo any time soon.

jrhawk42

@amishmofo:Good to see someone else knows what they are talking about.

Foxstar Sixtail

@InsidiousTuna: I'll take 10!

Bleentastic sees bandwagon and jumps

Digimon Online is said to be coming to PS3 if the rumors are right.

FFXI is also playable on PS3, provided that is you have a 20, 60 or 80 gig..and the 80gig system is said to have some sort of 'issues'. So MMO's are already here. The real issue is more then anything that if you tie a MMO to a console, it limits what you can do as the years go by..FFXI is a prime showing of that.

@SortaKindaAGamer:As someone who's been playing FFXI from it's 2004 launch and played EQ for PS2, there is no good reason you can't play a MMO on a controller. FFXI is perhaps the best use of a controller used in a MMORPG as you can play without a keyboard at all (Though you will need a keyboard to avoid making macros into a day long task when building them and to chat with people)

@wild homes 5: no disassemble!:Not completely true. If you really worked at it, you could play FFXI completely with nothing else but a Duel Shock 3/Sixaxis.

@z0phi3l:There's a little something called macros.

@thefremen:Sony failed to get the PS2 HDD out early enough in the PS2's lifespan for devs to make use of it and for some reason even when it's installed, you still can't op to save games right to the HDD, you have to enter into the bios and fool transfer from your cards to the HDD and so on.

@thefremen:Your fonts might have been screwed up. Bad controls? I can't attest there, I enjoy the DS3 more then the keyboard.

@Walker:See FFXI, Everquest for PS2.

@Chewbenator:See FFXI, Everquest for PS2.

What this is really is the devs do not want to be stuck bound to a console, but I can't understand why more of them don't try. SE's got 500k paying accounts a month at the very least and each account is a flat $14 and that's only if they don't have mules, which run $1 for every single extra mule.

Foxstar Sixtail

@SortaKindaAGamer:
^typos

SortaKindaAGamer

@wild homes 5: no disassemble!:
"Why would people buy the inferior version if a markedly easier to control PC version is available?"

Thats where we will disagree.A console game will generally not see keyboard + mouse as "easier to control" Somebody else brought up the point that an MMO defeats the purpose of consoles, in that the "immediacy"/instant gratification is lost, and maybe they're right then. Because personally I would not want to play a console MMO that required a keyboard. Beyond the personal preference of a gamepad, which I think alot of gamers(console gamers) share, I just can see myself wanting to balance a keyboard on my lap while sitting on the sofa.

But again, I originally referred to an MMO designed for consoles , not WoW shoehorned onto a console. Take whats worked since 8-bit rpg's and build on it, get creative.Maybe they would be much more linear than traditional MMORPG's but Id love to see it happen.

SortaKindaAGamer

Designing a MMO for a console would be easy. An MMO can be designed so it can be played on a controller versus and keyboard & mouse combo. For example, Oblivion's control system allows a broad range of commands, packed neatly within the confines of a controller. In addition, RAM would not be an issue considering that a PC MMO has to run Windows and all of it system idle processes in addition to the game itself. If you were able to takeout the Windows factor, you be surprised how much RAM your MMO really takes up, especially when most of it is paged on the hard drive. System patches could eat up to 10 gigs of space on a hard drive; however, the smallest hard drive that can be bought for any current gen console is 20 gigs. In essence, hard drive space would not be a problem.
The only limitation would be player communication. Of course, Xbox or Sony could use the current VOIP method that is already preinstalled in the system itself (this would be similar to WOW players using Skype to communicate). Another solution would be to allow keyboards for communicate. Microsoft does have the keyboard attachment for their controller that would be perfect for the job. In this case the MMO could be prepackaged with the keyboard attachment. It wouldn't be the first time a game was sold with an additional controller (i.e., Rock Band, Guitar Hero, FFXI, DDR, and so on).
The big factor in this decision is money. Of course it would be cheap to design an MMO for the console, but would the MMO software company be stratified with not being able to charge their customers monthly fees in addition to their live accounts? In addition, there would be little market appeal for the console manufacture. The most they would see out of this deal would be the purchase of the game itself and maybe a few add-ons from the marketplace. Considering that consoles are sold below cost and there would be a great deal of people who would buy the MMO game and stop buying other games. This is why you almost never see Microsoft or Sony truly entertain the idea of an MMO for the console.

DjTucan

There is just so much wrong in these comments, I just had to register to post a response.

For one I bet half of you have never even played Final Fantasy XI on PS2 or 360, but I guess it sucks cause no one plays it. Well actually, it's the #1 MMO in Japan and also more Japanese players play on the PS2 than their PC. So I'm not sure where all these comments are coming from when the game was designed with the Ps2 audience in mind.

Seriously what the hell are you talking about when saying a MMO on PC has to be different on console. Again I point to Final Fantasy XI where people on PC, PS2, and 360 play together on the same servers. I've played the game on all three and actually prefer the controller. Yeah I'm not sure how I could play with the crazily insane priced $10 USB keyboards that work for both PS2 and 360.

And I'm no computer expert but for those that want to get all technical with RAM and patches, stop pretending like you know what the hell your talking about. Square Enix's new MMORPG will run on the same engine as Final Fantasy XIII and will be on both the PC and console, so I'm pretty sure they overcame the "RAM issue."

Next time you want to post, play the games you're talking about.

amishmofo

The main reason why there are few console MMO's up till now is 1 reason only the lack of hard a hard drive.

dsmx

@SortaKindaAGamer: At the very least the keyboard is necessary for some interaction with other players. Not everyone wants to use a mic to communicate. And most players would prefer to control it with a keyboard. You're going to have to make your MMO better than merely adequate for a console if you want people to buy it-- and that means you're going to need PC-level input systems. Why would people buy the inferior version if a markedly easier to control PC version is available?

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

@wild homes 5: no disassemble!: Awesome post and I agree.

Chewbenator

i know when i played WOW i spent lots of hours at the PC. If it was on a console, im sure my family (when im home) and my housemates (when im at school) would def not be to thrilled with me spending the same many hours hogging the TV.

T16skyhopp

The problem with console MMO's is you can't put a PC MMO on a console. You shouldn't even compare the two. For starters a console MMO would have to have its controls designed for use with a gamepad, not a keyboard or mouse. It could also take advantage of voice for communication but only when in groups.

Depending on console, for example PS3, you know most PS3 owners will have a 40gb hard drive. So HDD space for patches isn't really an issue and if you were to have an expansion, well that could just come on another disk.

Subscriptions is another issue. I think the best model for consoles would be micro transactions.

Walker

Main issue, keyboard vs controller. Simply no matter what you will run out of combintations for skills, etc on a controller and that is not an issue with the PC. And like already said, the whole point of a console is no keyboard/mouse.

z0phi3l

in an mmo designed for consoles I mean

SortaKindaAGamer

One could also make the point that MMOs generally address completely different aspects of gaming that consoles generally favor. Console gaming is usually characterised by IMMEDIACY. The instant payoff, the smaller rewarding experiences. Nintendo's famous talk of 30-minute gameplay experiences. The frequent save points. The convergence aspect of both next-gen consoles. MMO gameplay is about the long tail-- INVESTMENT is the key concept here. The individual things you do in WoW might not be that compelling-- any individual half-hour gameplay session might not really be rewarding-- but it all adds up, all those experiences you find, to you developing a bond with the world of the game. RPGs address this same group, and we find RPGs are still not taking over-- they have a loyal subculture, but they're not taking over the world. Until console gamers begin to accept long-tail experiences as a selling point, MMOs will be very niche for console audiences.

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

If we can get past the ram issue, I dont see why controls should be an issue at all. Look att ff12 for reference.

Shed some light on this for me if Im wrong, of Im misunderstanding the issue, but I dont get why we would need usb keyboards, totally defeats the purpose IMO.Weve been managing infinite inventories and abilities on our consoles just fine for a long time, I dont get why this gamepad layout wouldnt work in an MMO.

SortaKindaAGamer

I think AOC might work for consoles if they could lower all the res, but then the boobies wouldn't look as good and then why the hell would anyone want to play it?

thefremen

When FFXI was my game of choice I went ahead and got the HDD for my PS2 so my wife could play while I played on the PC. She couldn't read anything the other party members were saying, and aside from spamming heals the controls were hard to use.

Of course, we all know what happened with the PS2 Harddrive. A month later Sony released a statement saying "Fuck you guys who bought the HDD. FUCK YOU UP YOUR STUPID ASSES.".

thefremen

@EnigmaNemesis: I play the game, and I've seen how many people can get on screen at once, I'm just worried about the experience some player's might have especially during PvP if they lag when theres more than 10 people on screen.

@muu: Yeah but even WoW can use up a lot of ram in high population areas, or after you've been playing for awhile. AoC uses 1.4 gigs of ram, kinda worrying when you have 1/3 the amount of ram needed to run a game when you are trying to port it over to a console.

Chewbenator

GRAND THEFT AUTO.

No grinding, don't change it from the way it plays now... Just a shitload of missions, and a server-based GTA America, from sea-to sea. Liberty City, DC, modern-day Vice City, Appalachia, Houston, desert, Rockies, and the state of San Andreas. Put in a San Andreas-style leveling system. Let's make this happen.

InsidiousTuna

Will 360 players be able to play with/vs PC player in AOC?
if so, that would explain why the game is so bad.

jeffreybt

1- Console keyboards don't have a great track record of being available and working at a reasonable price.

2- MMOs have become RAM hogs. Players don't want to spend hours every day in a world that constantly loads and uses the same boring textures. They want wild variety, especially in their own toons. Good luck pulling that off on consoles.

James in Dupont

I've been waiting for a good console MMO since I played Phantasy Star for Xbox compulsively for a month or two. It didn't have the persistent world experience (in fact, there were like four environments altogether or something), so it just didn't have the longevity, but the weapons/loot/combat/shoulder guys that shoot at enemies were really cool.

Strangelove

I think we're forgetting the other consoles, that is, the ds and psp. I think both would be great candidates for simple mmos like nexus tk. I thought phantasy star would be a fun mmo for the psp but theyre not doing online play only ad hoc so its kind of pointless to me.

I would love to have a psp mmo though, and i think my ds could use some love as well.

snakepliskin

Well duh, above I meant they could only be fixed server side but still get the benefits to the client...

Al3xandr0s

My last post was directed to the guiding blue's first comment...

To make this more useful I'll add that all those "not enough ram" and such comments are simply wrong. As pointed out already, MMOs have been developed for consoles since the last generatiot and still looked pretty good compared to non-mmo games of the same period. The little ram of the consoles is sufficient to push out decent graphics. If it's really not (but really they should scale their graphical demands depending on the type of game they want to make), they can always use instanced content a la Guild Wars or Conan to restrict the number of simultaneous players.

The patching problem does exist but I suppose that can be circumvented with a more well thought out development process which will allow certain potential errors (balance, world glitches, whatever else) to only be fixed client side for the clients to get the same benefits and also much longer and better beta testing periods to ensure the product is as bug free as possible upon release.

With that said, both FFXI and PSO series did pretty good in all those aspects (yes I know about the cheating in PSO)...

Al3xandr0s

I just don't think the console market is asking for MMO gaming yet. I think maybe next generation MMO content might be an obvious emerging console market, but right now it just doesnt make enough sense-- one of the most immediately apparent problems is that visually, MMOs just don't make a lot of sense for HDTV owners. The resolution is either too low, or too low relative to the viewing distance, to be able to view all the text on the screen easily. It's one thing to play WoW or SWG on a 1920x1200 24" panel from 15" away, but it's quite a bit more difficult to process all that same information on a 1920x1080 42" panel from eight feet away on your couch. That's just one of many problems facing console MMO experiences. I'm not sure consoles will ever have loads of killer app MMOs as we recognise them for PC-- to really take off for the console market they'll be completely customised experiences. And I don't think the impetus for companies to make them is there yet.

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

here's the answer: consoles are for people want balls to the walls action not boring, tedious grinding.. can you seriously imagine gamers playing MMO's on the wii?

the_answer

@Al3xandr0s:

Ok, guess the hype has gotten me fooled then.

The guiding blue

If we ever get MMO that is set in Hyrule, where eveyone can be a adevnturer and take quests, explore dungeons, etc, im in. Until then, sorry, no dice for me in MMO land, I look for something completly different in console gaming.

Shiryu

@Asbestos_Underwear:

Should be avoidable through some special contracts but it is hard and yours is a very valid point indeed.

There WILL be more mmos though on consoles. The platform owners are practically forced to.

The guiding blue

How does it bypass it in any way? Do you actually play it? It really uses the standard formula seen in the likes of Guild Wars or WoW and on top of that requires constant key presses for the standard attacks. You don't need any less number of hotkeys and you don't perform the special moves in some sort of Street Fighter fashion if what's what you think.

I'll not continue cos it'll probably end up as some anti-Conan rant since I've bought the game but am overall very disappointed with it...

Al3xandr0s

@Chewbenator: PC MMOs already have simplified graphics to get over this; and you should know well enough that a PC having "2GB of RAM" doesn't mean it's got 4times as much power as a 360 with 512 to work with.

@Coquiton: I believe both the PS3 and 360 support USB keyboards; everyone and a dog nowadays use USB keyboards, and if the cord's too short you can always get yourself some USB cabling.

muu

@Chewbenator:

AoC is HEAVILY instanced, almost too much IMO, so I am sure a lot of the direction is due to limiting amount of players on screen, etc. for the consoles.

EnigmaNemesis

I think the entire problem is with the awkwardness of balancing a USB keyboard with a console controller. Could it work? Of course! It's just that it needs to be approached differently than PC MMOs are, which is why so far there hasn't been real success with console MMOs.

Xenigma

The reason why there isn't more console MMOs out there is due to the fact of heavy memory and storage limitations, also not mature enough online infrastructure for consoles in the past.

Just recently, consoles have more memory than they once did (even though it isnt enough still for most current MMOs to be a non laggy experience), and internal storage for constant patching and updating. And also finally the online is more mature for console gaming.

I think the next year and a half you will be seeing console MMOs on the rise, and be a huge focus for Sony (now they they signed a deal with NCSoft and SOE is merged with the Playstation brand), and MSFT as well.

With titles like The Agency, Huxley, and Age of Conan coming to the consoles, as well as other games ... it will be the next "in thing".

Basically it takes a LONG time to develop MMOs, a much longer development cycle on average compared to your non-MMO game ... combined with the lack of maturity on both online and storage on the console ... it just wasnt feasible.

It will take off soon. And will be HEAVY focus for the next round of consoles, especially with MSFT's introduced micro-transaction brigade.

EnigmaNemesis

Why would Sony or any other consoles manufacturer have an MMO on their platform? It's totally opposed to their strategy. They sell 8-20 hour long games of which players are supposed to buy as many as they can. Each time the platform holder will get a licensing fee and part or the retail price.

MMO players will pay fees, but not to Sony UNLESS the MMO developer is Sony. Hence we only see Sony MMOs on the Sony platform. As long as the basic hardware package is sold at a loss no console manufacturer will be interested to sell MMOs. Especially not from other design teams. Imagine if Blizzard would release an MMO on the Playstation. While it might sell, the game would also keep the players from playing to many other games. Not something Sony would want. The do not want to sell one game that offers fun for 2-3 years and 1000 hours. They want to sell as many games as they can.

Asbestos_Underwear

I says keep the MMOs on the computer.

PeterPanDude

But developing a MMO for PC is either hit (WoW) or gigantic miss (Everquest 2, Tabula Rasa, Granado Espada, etc.). You can have a whole lot of cool ideas, but the execution of those ideas at launch is what matters. Not the mention of 50,000+ different PC configurations that you have to account for.

On consoles you're more likely to get word-of-mouth fame if your game is pretty damn good. I tell my PS3 and Xbox 360 friends about Age of Conan all the damn time, but can they get on it (yet)? No, because they don't want to drop $200 to upgrade their PC. It's an old argument but its still the truth. Even Two Worlds was a piece of SHIT but people still picked it up, and a few even liked it. I'd say at least good 30% of that game's use base is Xbox 360 players. On FFXI I ran across SO MANY people who play on the 360, and its surprising because it launched on the PS2 and PC originally.

Thassodar

I personally will never buy an MMO for a console (or pc for that matter) unless they figure out a way to get rid of the monthly fee. Im already paying 50 bucks a year for live and i have no desire to throw more money down the intertubes

smuckersisgood

Good points in that article. Though I'd like to add that PCs are upgradeable. Which makes it easier for developers to tweak whatever needs to improve performance.

His first barrier---
Barrier #1: Platform Holders Demand a Share
Is something that I think they need to have to live with. Everyone will get something out of that monthly pie they call subscriptions. (One of the few things which I think most console gamers are still a bit apprehensive about-monthly subscriptions).

This is a certainty. Aren't Sony and MS doing something right now which are essentially MMOs on consoles? (APB for one...)

excaliburps

Those are some good points!

However, personally I think that their reason #3 about the keyboard is the biggest obstacle.
Keyboards are almost neccessary for MMO's. And yet, the whole point of a console is to not use a keyboard. How many people will really buy a keyboard just to use on one game?
That would lead to crappy sales, methinks.

Plus, I never even thought about the playerbase thing!

All the other points are basically about red tape and bureaucracy, but even if they do make it past all that, who's gonna be there to play?

Coquiton

As much as i love my other consoles. PC is still number 1 in my book. Games are coming on pretty slowly though but by the end of the year we'll have far cry, sc2, and the big dog spore.

snakepliskin

MMOs are probably the least affected by the rampant piracy prevalent in the PC gaming world -- monthly fees to keep playing, or fixed priced booster items are there to encourage continuous play to get to the top.

Besides, keeping them hooked on the MMO doesn't encourage sales of other games -- the friends I added onto my Live acct that I met through FF11 rarely if ever play any other game (and I was exactly the same way till I essentially quit last year). FF11 is serious business for a lot of people, and it's also the reason why it's Japanese Live's #1 game in terms of how long people are connected to LIVE.

It'd still be nice to have, but I'm not sure it's the audience you want to prioritize into attracting.

muu

@Chewbenator: 360 version of AoC that is.

Chewbenator

Not enough ram. When is the last time you had a nice looking game graphically that supported more than 16 players with no lag. In a traditional MMO you would be limited by that 16 player cap per zone. It could work for instanced games like AoC, CoH, or Guild Wars, but even in those you have more than that amount of people per zone. The PS3 and 360 have what 512mb of ram? When your standard computer has at least 1 if not 2 these days (because you can get 2 gigs of good ram for 40 bucks). Regarding this It will be curious how they enhance the 360 version to handle that many players be it toning the graphics down, or a large install.

Chewbenator

It takes a lot of HDD space for patches, expansions etc

Issues with controls. Keyboard and mouse not owned by everyone leads to problems.

Otherwise, I see no problems. Conan would be a good example on how to bypass control problems, with its combo system.

The guiding blue

I'm a complete PC gamer, so way to score one for the team, Joe!

I still think PC is one of the best gaming platforms.

Tesahli

@EnigmaNemesis:I see your posting is as droll as ever. The PC has the number it does because the focus is typically on the PC when it comes to MMO's. Your bias is showing, but honestly if the same focus was on doing the same for consoles, you'd have equal numbers. No, YOU give me a break.

Foxstar Sixtail

I think it's just a matter of finding an economical structure that's unsustainable. Console gamers are like nomads and move from game to game where as a PC gamer is an aficionado and can linger on a few games at a time. The PC is much more conducive to this style of gaming too as it allows you to install a game and play it without the disc. Expanding words like that of MMOs are also very resources (RAM, CPU, storage, and even hardware) which all PCs have an ample amount of in comparison with a console that has a limited and fixed amount. But resource concerns are the tip of it; it really does come down to my first argument: financial sustainability.

okenny :)

@SortaKindaAGamer, Foxstar Sixtail: Friends, I'm not saying that it's impossible to do it. The only point that I was making was that you'd need to do more than simply translate robust keyboard controls to a gamepad-- that if all you did was make an inferior port of the PC controls, no one would choose to buy it. Not that it couldn't be done well.

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

@Foxstar Sixtail:

So people wave the FF penis in the air, and all of a sudden the PC and WoW and AoC and LOTRO and EQ 1,2, and ever other MMO out there is insignificant, and now the console can compete. Give me a break.

Just like said here:

@wild homes 5: no disassemble!:

And here:@EnigmaNemesis:

Is most of the reasons stated.

EnigmaNemesis

@amishmofo:

There is just so much wrong in these comments, I just had to register to post a response.

Well, for someone who is new, you start out on the wrong foot here.

For one I bet half of you have never even played Final Fantasy XI on PS2 or 360, but I guess it sucks cause no one plays it. Well actually, it's the #1 MMO in Japan and also more Japanese players play on the PS2 than their PC. So I'm not sure where all these comments are coming from when the game was designed with the Ps2 audience in mind.

I played it on the PC and it bored me, and played it on the 360 for beta, and it bored me some more, looked horrible, and the controls were CLUNKY with the controller. Being number one in Japan means nothing ... of course it is.. the name is FINAL FANTASY ... if it was any other name, I would challenge the claims of Japan's number one MMO.

Seriously what the hell are you talking about when saying a MMO on PC has to be different on console. Again I point to Final Fantasy XI where people on PC, PS2, and 360 play together on the same servers. I've played the game on all three and actually prefer the controller. Yeah I'm not sure how I could play with the crazily insane priced $10 USB keyboards that work for both PS2 and 360.

Final Fantasy fails in comparison to any other MMO on the PC ... LOTRO and WoW for one run circles around it for the fun factor. And until those or other games like them come to the consoles, then FF is a poor argument. How are you going to argue one game on the console, as a force to be reckoned with for PC MMOs, when there is this little juggernaut they call WoW which is 10 million strong ... and I dont like WoW one bit. Hell even Lineage 1 and 2 stomp mud holes in FF and they are PC as well.

And I'm no computer expert but for those that want to get all technical with RAM and patches, stop pretending like you know what the hell your talking about. Square Enix's new MMORPG will run on the same engine as Final Fantasy XIII and will be on both the PC and console, so I'm pretty sure they overcame the "RAM issue."

Just because it uses the same engine, means squat. RAM is about network lag and how many people you can have on screen before you are chugging along and lagging out. The "engine" means nothing. WoW can run on a calculator, the engine is so non performance hungry, but if you have less than 1 gig of ram, good look in giant PVP or RAIDS. SO yes, you show you are no computer expert.

Next time you want to post, play the games you're talking about.

Next time you create your first post, remember not to flame the community here, this isnt 4chan or Joystiq, or even IGN sites ... especially when your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Using FF as an argument, when the PC has 20+ more successful and still being played MMOs out there.

/sigh

EnigmaNemesis

@amishmofo: No offense, friend, but trying to discount technical criticisms of a genre of titles by citing just ONE MMO, and one that happens to be several years old, is a bit laughable. It's like if you said, many PC games have problems being controlled with a gamepad, and I refuted it by saying, Madden 2008 for PC controls well with a gamepad. I'd have proved a point about ONE TITLE. That's it. Not about PC gaming in general. In the same way, FFXI does not speak for anything but FFXI itself. And no offense, but the next-gen FFMMO is, at this point, vaporware. It hasn't enjoyed any substantial previews, boasts no galleries of artwork or screenshots online, and hasn't yet been shown in public. So right now, it applies in no way, shape, or form to our discussion.

But welcome to Kotaku.

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

It would be funny to see someone try to port WoW to a console. You need so many buttons justs for skill hotkeys alone. They'd probably implement it as "hold a/b/x/y and press the D-pad" type thing. Ew.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think conventional MMO's are out of the question.

torsoboy

@Asbestos_Underwear: Not to mention a lot of console owners, myself included, dont want all that functionality. I bought my 360 to play games. period. Having universal mail, blogging, third-party tools, etc. seems more like work and less like fun to me.

smuckersisgood

Good article, but I have to disagree with Barrier #3.
The fact that most MMOs use the keyboard for communication isn't because it is liberating, it is because it is a necessary constraint. A keyboard is the only communication device that every PC owner is guaranteed to possess. If every PC owner had a headset mic, then I guarantee you that there would not be a single MMO released that used text as the primary communication medium.
As for the claim that voice chat doesn't work so well for groups of 100, well, tell me a medium that does? Text certainly doesn't; the log scrolls faster than is humanly readable. The only communication that works for groups that large is one to many - a leader role.

In short, claiming that the lack of a keyboard is a hindrance is disingenuous, to say the least. It may be true that for both the PS3 and the Wii the lack of [i]any[/i] standard communication device is a hindrance, but for every reason save bandwidth, keyboard chat loses out to voice.

behemoth01

Been playing games since some of you was not born and im seeing as most that pc as a gaming platform is going one way....and that's down.

Consoles wil be the star of the show, mayby not this generation consoles but next gen wil probably blow us away.

_LarZen_

Let's not forget that the PC is the only REAL online platform. MMOs need all of that functionality, one can't cut that away.

MMOs need a community to be really alive. Communities need internet technologies only present on the PC. Consoles have some online functionality, but far from all. Especially the 360 has nothing but Microsoft's own service and featureset running.

Universal mail, universal browsing, third party tools, alt+tab into fansites and wiki databases. Teamspeak, guild and group functionality, blogging. Consoles struggle hard to include all that into their "dashboard", media crossbar or whatever you want to call it. PC has all of that out of the box, an important platform advantage.

What's more important is the fact that socializing, a key aspect about MMOs, is done on forums. Voicechat, textchat vanish within seconds, a forum message lasts and empowers users to communicate better and over longer periods of time.

Having a forum integrated into their console platform is still an alien concept. A big MMO forum will generate more posts than 1up.com generates on all console games. One can't take that away when converting an MMO to console without risking to break the community.

The day Sony/MS/N allow independent, user generated, community driven, information content to really integrate with their platform is the day MMOs have a chance. Without that MMOs have little to no chance.

Asbestos_Underwear

@Foxstar Sixtail: But to be fair, that hypothetical doesn't mean anything. Of course if the money was being spent on console MMOs there would be more of them and they'd be successful. That's like saying if EA were making Madden 09 for the PC we could play PC Madden 09 in August. But we can only deal with reality, not hypotheticals. And just because Final Fantasy XI managed cross-platform play reasonably well, does not mean other games have also-- because they either haven't succeeded or opted against trying altogether.

wild homes 5: no disassemble!

i always wondered why SONY doesnt bring star wars galaxies to the PS3..even though i hated it,i am sure it would need the people, who i am sure would be tempted

FWIW:i played a lot of final fantasy 11 first on PC then on 360,and i thought the controller and keyboard had been implemented well...i still miss that game

metallicorphan

@Foxstar Sixtail:

Yep bias, I own everything and play on everything ... hell, I even stated obvious technical reasons of the past, and was even PRO-CONSOLE for MMOs and how I feel they will boom with Sony leading the way in the next 2 years ... but of course, since the numbers are the numbers ...I am bias.

EnigmaNemesis

@torsoboy:There's something called macros. They work.

Foxstar Sixtail

@torsoboy:

You could allow people to use a keyboard with the game. Lmao.

If they used a controller it could be something like, hold L and pull up your skills. I dunno.

CCCombobreaker

That's for PS2.

Allen750

For those saying to use keyboards on consoles, that is a very poor solution. The majority of people have their console set up in a bedroom or the living room. They are either sitting on a bed, a couch, or the floor. Those are all awkward places to be using a keyboard. It is of course possible to use a keyboard in those positions, but not something I would do for 5+ hours at a time.

Baff

My idea for a console MMO; bash A button to kill stuff. Solves all the problems of KB/M in one go and keeps the lovely gameplay console gamers are used to. /sarcasm

I can't see any console MMO pulling in anywhere near as many subscribers as WoW either, or even Runescape heh.

And to be honest I can't see AoC looking anywhere as near as good on the 360 as the PC, will have to have really small draw distances.

@behemoth01: Voice chat means you have to listen to dicks, which is far worse than reading the bollocks they write. And how on Earth it would work with all sorts of chat channels etc I've no idea ;-). Which is part of the reason why text will be the main form of communication over the whole server for a long while yet.

Riotpoll

@D Mitsuki:

LOL ... nice one!

EnigmaNemesis

@metallicorphan:

SWG needs to die as punishment, for what LA and SOE did to it.

EnigmaNemesis

Because console gamers can actually tell good genre's from boring drab ones that just want all there money.

*Looks at console games sells figures this gen*

I take back what I previously stated and apologize to anybody I have offended.

D Mitsuki

@behemoth01: The text log still keeps a record so you can scroll back to read it. With voice chat, you can't filter through multiple people talking at once. Once anything has been said, there is no log that you can refer back to if you missed a message.

Text communication in MMOs is very important because you will be getting messages from your friends, your guild, private messages, and people in your general area. Very often it happen at the same time. This is very different than a game like Team Fortress 2 where you are only talking to people in the match.

There are many people in MMOs with the ability to use voice chat but prefer not to.

Velops

@Tesahli: exactly. Instead of having to buy a new console every couple of years all you have to do is make minor upgrades to your computer.

MasterJoefus

@jair:
You know, that's all easily fixed by only allowing party voice chat... Which is the only way they could possibly allow it anyway, else even the fastest connections would be brought to their knees. So, no spam, just the needed communications for defeating that tough raid boss or whatever... WoW has recently introtuced voice chat for that purpose, though most people still tend to use external software like teamspeak instead.

Al3xandr0s

Basically MMO's survive cause of the community's ability to develop new and useful tools for them beyond the scope of what the developer came up with. I couldn't even play WoW if I didn't have my add-ons. Not happening on a console. There could still be a good mmo console experience though. The devs that made crackdown have that APB game which looks like it could be a lot of fun.

Pornosaur

Text Chat > voice chat for mmos.

I would NOT want to be hearing all that spam that happens when people are trying to sell things or look for groups.

text works well beccause you can filter things out (using your brain) quickly and read only what you need.

One area where voice chat works great is in a small group. Speed and teamwork is key, and voice chat works a lot better for this than text chat.

I like to think there's a way to make voice chat work in a City type area. Maybe you could click on text using the controller and it'll play a player recorded message...or something.

MMOs are about playing with others. It makes sense to me to give players all the communication options avaliable.

...and FFXI was awesome what are you punks talkning about!

jair

The issue between keyboard/mouse vs controller is all about coming up with an interface that works well with both. In practically every review of FFXI, it was criticized for having an odd interface. Yes, it's different. Yes, it's really weird compared to other MMO and has a learning curve. But anyone who has played FFXI on PC and another console realizes that the Square's design choices made for the interface were meant for the ease of playing on whichever platform. Switching between platforms was made even easier thanks to server-saved character macros, shortcuts, and map markers along with general character data.

For chatting, console MMOs just have to get used to using a keyboard and controller combo. Built-in voice chat isn't necassarily doable if your MMO is of a large scale, as talking with 17 other party members isn't going to work out (as in with the case of FFXI). It's a nice option for smaller parties, but it just doesn't work on a scale to be considered massive. If voice chat is available for small parties, that's great, but you're going to have to use a keyboard for all other situations anyway.

Without a well thought out cross-platform interface, your only other option is having an exclusive game for one particular platform and having it on only a console is going to reduce a MMO population, creating a failed community.

Any developer that would make a console MMO might as well port to the PC, if it wasn't already. So, I think coming up with a good cross-platform interface is key.

Another reason to why there aren't more console MMOs? If it's only receiving mediocre success on PC, why port to consoles? I'd be a risk to release on console first.

Torusan

I have to say that the amount of discussion here is really good. I think if MMO game developers went down this list they could get a real grasp on what people think about the genre socially. Both in terms of the console vs. PC crowd, and MMO vs. other genres.

BTW most 3d MMOs are not out there just to grab your money. A successful MMO spends 5 years, at least, in development, and spends at least 3 years after that supporting the game. In terms of American MMOs DAOC, EQ, WoW, to name a few they end up supporting the game, adding new content, and making the game enjoyable for very long amounts of time. WoW has just begun to slow down, but will pick up again when the next expansion hits. An MMO requires a huge investment in time, money, and people. If they were just in it for the money there are easier ways to do that. I'd say the fail rate of MMO's is somewhere in the 50/50 range for the ones we even hear from. LOTRO and AoC have succeeded in grabbing a part of the market while Vanguard, and TR failed (not totally, but you don't hear from them except when there's bad news) You take 4 fps's from the top companies in the Genre and maybe one of them doesn't sell a million.

I'm not sure if Console developers are ready for that long term support. Once a game is released they immediately move on to their next project, if they had not already done so. With some exceptions you get a year of support maybe.

As far as the chat issue, you have three people in a room, two of them try and talk to the third at the same time, garbled mess. Chat, they send both their messages at the same time, you can see which is more important. Sure real world conversation works, but if one person is telling, watch out there's a rogue behind you, and the other is telling you, WTS Raccoon Suit, one obviously needs the attention first. It might seem implausible that you would be able to follow 50 people's chat messages at the same time, but not all of them are talking at the same time, it takes time to type, so you don't get 5 people starting to talk at the same time, the messages get staggered. On a related note I don't think implementing voice chat on a console is a problem, just look at halo multiplayer.

With achievements and Xbox live, I think console gamers are just about ready for MMOs to expand on their platform. You get these small time investments which yield achievements that you can show off to your multi player audience. But how much more competitive and involved with a game do players get when those achievements that you worked hard to get yield bonuses to your play? You become more involved in the game and work longer to build up your character and BAM! MMO territory. Part of the reason I have devoted more and more of my time to MMOs is that I am building up this history with my character that adds up every time I play. Sure there are real advantages to playing an FPS for a month, but in six months I'll move on to the next one and have to start all over. I might play an MMO for 3 years strait and never lose all that history until I am flat out bored with that game.

Chewbenator

Because the user base is simply not hardcore enough. No, I'm serious; console gamers are composed of mainly casual gamers. That is exactly why any number of games are "dumbed down" to meet the expectations of casual gamers. Case in point: Bioshock. Look at how intricate System Shock was, not in terms of what was accessible due to Mouse & Keyboard controls, but the interactivity and depth. As console games take over the industry, we're going to see more and more of this.

Another good example would be every single game made for the Nintendo Wii (sans Twilight Princess and a select few others). Face it, casual gaming is where the money is, and unless we as a user base demand more complexity, then the trends will continue.

KevanB

True Fantasy Live Online, you could've been the best.

Do Kesubei

@Velops: Quite true.

@Pornosaur: That can vary really, but I know I wouldn't have played FFXI for as long as I did if I hadn't found the mod to be able to play it in windowed mode.

Being able to browse the net, chat, etc was practically goddamn near essential during those airship rides or sitting around LFG all afternoon.

belo

@The guiding blue:
I play age of conan as a caster, you can not play a caster with a controller in any game without having to have an overly simplistic casting system.

The reason MMO's live on the pc atm is because any good mmo is relativley intricate, it has to be to grip you for so long, this means either massive menus or lots of buttons.

add to that the issue of disk space, patches, repairing local installs, addons and the fact that many people like myself watch tv, read or whatever while playing means that mmo's are just too involved technically to run well on consoles, of course casual mmo's would be great on consoles if it wasnt for the fact its so much cheaper on pc's

Murdats

Hey, nobody has mentioned about the Animal Crossing factor! I think Nintendo has the perfect opportunity to may Animal Crossing THE MMO for consoles that makes casual gamers get into the fold and allow them to finally join the rest of the MMO group of gamers (if they don't screw it up). What they'll need to do is sell the game for $10 more with a USB keyboard included with the game (and make Friend Code automatic), if they do it right, MMO could finally be successful on consoles for possibly the first time ever. And using the same system, they can then create a MMORPG for Pokemon that could possibly be insanely popular... The only way they will be able to make this successful is for them to ensure to hire people who are MMO-experienced in terms of design. This CAN happen!! It could be bigger than Second Life, if Nintendo does it right...

onomeister

@Chewbenator: If you wait for someone to type "watch out there's a rogue behind you" you'll be dead before you read it. Like I said in my last post, voice chat has already been implemented (semi, people still prefer TeamSpeak) succesfully by WoW. It is party-only voice chat so assuming you have a decent party, there's not going to be any "WTS GOLD" messages. Not to mention people have been using the likes of TeamSpeak for MMO voice chat for years now, so it only makes sense for developers to implement it built-in in such ways. And of course you can always disable it for when you're just making a random party you have no real interest in communing with.

As for all the failure rate stuff, well, obviously when they make one they just hope it won't fail so they can rake in the cash. And if it does fail, obviously they can just cut the support. But also more than people think are succesful. Korea alone seems to be supporting a truckload of random generic MMO grindfests with no end in sight.

Al3xandr0s

I enjoyed phantasy star online locally, 40$ plus an online monthly fee? No thanks.

Talleh