third person shooter
Anti-Feministing: Debunking The Argument Against GTA IV
Posted by Leigh Alexander at 2:00 AM on June 3, 2008
A pretty blonde mob princess, bound and gagged, is taken kicking and screaming raw-throated curses out of the trunk of the player's car. Tied to a chair in the hideout of the gangsters who hold her hostage, the player's asked to snap a photo to send to her Mafia father.
She screams muffled protests through the rag between her lips, the image on the camera phone screen reflecting her tormented, terrified eyes. As the player centres her face in the frame, she offers a desperate moan, a wracked sob.
"Smile for daddy," the player tells her.
Click.
Is Grand Theft Auto IV an expression of hate towards women? Are those who enjoy it misogynists?
Feminist interest blog Feministing certainly thinks so - though not because of this mission scene from later in the game. At the time of GTA IV's launch, Feministing poster Samhita came across a video called "Ladies of Liberty City: Very Bad Things," created by IGN. The video featured sequences of the game edited together by IGN, and all of these sequences depicted violence, with sexual overtones, toward the prostitutes and strippers in the game - such as soliciting a prostitute and then running her over with your car to get your money back.
Feministing's Samhita was offended, and excoriated the game for what she called its "blatant violence and misogyny displayed towards women."
Before we address an argument to her statement, it's necessary first to pick out a few serious flaws in her opinion of the game.
Thanks, IGN
First, she referred to IGN's video as a "trailer" for the game, which it was not, of course, being that it was neither produced, publicised or sanctioned by the title's developer, Rockstar, and was not intended to be used as advertisement nor representation of the game. The development of that video was entirely the doing of IGN, who when questioned by MTV Multiplayer's Stephen Totilo, admitted it "messed up," and removed the video, whose caption had read: "Grab a cup of hot coffee and enjoy the working girls of the city."
If Samhita of Feministing was unaware enough of the game industry to know the difference between a game's trailer and its official promotion, one could certainly argue that she was unqualified to criticise the game. Unfortunately, though, only a very small percentage of the world is especially educated on video games, and the majority of attacks on the medium come from the outside looking in. With that in mind, a hearty portion of the blame for this misunderstanding is squarely on the shoulders of IGN, who should have known better, to say the very least.
Who's Raising Our Kids?
Beginning with this misconception, Samhita, who hadn't played the game, expressed concern that young men might be having their first sexual experiences with women in GTA IV's prostitute-populated, violent city streets and strip clubs.
Because the modern school system encourages memorising information to regurgitate it, discouraging creative analysis, Samhita argued that young boys playing GTA IV would not only be introduced to negative stereotypes of female sexuality through the game, but would also lack the critical thinking skills to understand that they were not being "trained" in a value system.
She wrote:
"It can be argued that they are being force fed heavily marketed violent images (that often reflect the violence in the media, movies, government policy and in their own communities) that become normalised. And not only normalised, but given the popular nature of GTA, it is cool to be violent and kill prostitutes."
It's a common position, and even a viable one, that media today and the ready access to information may desensitise not only young people, but adults of all ages and creeds to heavy violence and sexual themes. But are children really "force-fed" any sort of entertainment, implying that there is no choice? If media really is the sole determiner of children's values, I'm afraid we've got a bigger problem than a violent video game.
Does Samhita suggest that parents have no power to create what's "normalized" for their children? Assuming such a lack of influence on the part of mothers is at least as misogynistic as any entertainment medium.
And even so - let's pretend a moment that it's possible for media to single-handedly ruin our youth. Even then, how can Samhita place blame on a title that, at the time she leveled her critique, had been on store shelves for a single day? One that she never even played?
Of course, Samhita is neglecting the most essential point of all - Grand Theft Auto IV is not a game for children, period.
Those Virgin Eyes
After being evaluated by several ratings organizations worldwide, the game was assigned a "mature" rating - this is 17+ in the United States and 18 in Europe and the United Kingdom. Moreover, the ESRB has repeatedly urged consumers to use the ratings as a guide, and that the word "mature" in the ratings is equally as important as the number.
In other words, this game is not intended to be played by curious youth about to get their first look at a pair of boobs, Samhita.
Ironically, by the way, Feministing used the Australian box shot of that region's heavily-edited version of GTA IV - with the "15+" rating sticker clear in the image.
Technicalities aside, Samhita's post went on to wonder why "a game that depicts such violence towards women [is] so popular," and asked, "How is that acceptable?"
Guilt Issue
To be fair, this is a more challenging question. In its eagerness to defend gaming, the game community has repeatedly stressed that GTA IV neither forces nor explicitly rewards you for engaging in prostitution, violence towards women, or random acts of brutality. But it would be untruthful on our part to say that anyone plays GTA IV primarily for its engrossing story, its flawless driving mechanics or its watertight gameplay.
We play it to wreak mayhem, so let's just admit it. Maybe then, we can finally stop feeling guilty.
GTA IV, at its core, is not a violence simulator, nor a gripping television drama, nor a camp comedy - rather, it's all of these, presented as an essay on freedom of behaviour, a fantasy world where morality is suspended, subjective or selective. What we do in that fantasy world says something about us as a society, about the state of the real world, rather than being a blatant advertisement for the innate immorality of entertainment.
Rockstar's Dan Houser recently told Playboy in an interview:
"We're trying to give gamers freedom. It boils down to critics not liking the fact that people can choose to do 'bad' things in a fantasy world - which to me is silly."
Even Samhita admits that violent media is merely a reflection of a violent world. In that respect, GTA IV is merely truthful, an unwillingness to avoid the ugliest aspects of society. Instead of avoiding them, it embraces them, a poignant satire of those truths. Why is Samhita so incensed that players in the game can visit seedy, low-lit and vaguely gross strip clubs, when those things are actually plentiful in reality?
And in real world strip clubs, the women choose to put their flesh on display. You can assume, then, that the digital women have elected to be there, also. Although not everyone always makes ideal choices for their lives, and many women become sex workers out of desperate economic circumstances, still more appreciate burlesque as an art and embrace the work they do.
And to Samhita's quintessential argument - that a game that makes this behaviour possible is "misogynistic"?
Freedom And Equality For All
As a mirror of society at its worst, no one is spared the harsh lens in the game. Rarely are any of the game's characters portrayed in a favourable light, and it presents in fact a level playing field - the men are as mad for their addictions and bloodlust as the women are. And if any of the characters are likeable, it's because of empathy - or pity - for the nature of their human failings.
In fact, one of the game's more powerful drug barons is the full-figured, fierce and feared Elizabeta, whose treatment is no more or less gentle than her male counterparts. Equality abounds. Yes, GTA IV is hostile to women. It's hostile to everyone.
To call misogyny here is divisive, actually, implying that the treatment of women needs to be elevated above the treatment of any other group - as if "woman" were a separate, special "race" with a unified mind. We aren't, thank you.
In fact, with all due respect for the feminist community, demand for that sort of favoritism seems to breed resentment - perhaps even the very resentment that GTA IV provides the framework to explore. Just who are those large-breasted logo silhouettes on Feministing's website supposed to be giving the middle finger to, anyway?
The imagery of the blond mafia princess held hostage is disturbing - but no more so than the scenes from film, television and novels with which humankind has been fascinated for centuries, dating even further back than the dramatic works of the ancient Greeks. These things don't begin with GTA IV, not by a long shot. And to argue that mankind (and not merely "men") have no right to the dark fantasies the game allows us to examine is painfully naïve.
And GTA IV earns praise above all for delivering that playground in which to explore and reflect on our baser ideas, even those we don't necessarily embrace in our real lives. It does appeal to misogynists, who would have espoused those philosophies with or without a video game, and to those who choose to focus only on the grossest elements. In IGN's "citizenmike"'s flippant defense of the IGN "Ladies of Liberty City" video, he wrote:
"GTA games, ultimately, want players to shoot innocent people. It's one of the core tenants of the game design. In fact, GTA games fail in entirety if you try to play them without some degree of moral depravity."
I think Rockstar's core tenet, actually, is to force people to consider moral depravity, not to beg them to embrace it. And that's why GTA IV appeals to the socially curious and the civil-minded, too - all of whom tire of having their intentions assumed, and of being told they've no right to their entertainment by those who haven't even bothered to try it.

Comments (AU Comments · US Comments)
chugs
Posted June 3, 2008 2:23 PM
I found GTA IV to be disturbing to say the least.
Hitting the Mafia bosses daughter and the nature of the of kidnapping in my view is sadistic.
The designers claim GTA IV gives the player freedom of choice. Well I wouldn't have chosen to kidnap the mafia daughters princess.
I would of just robbed, or killed the Mafia boss. The game engages you in terribly unrealistic gun battles against overwhelming odds. If I can kill several dozen baddies then I really don't need to kidnap people. Hell I could of just had a successful career robbing banks (why can't we have the bank robbing mini-mission?)
By GTAIV supposed gritty reality I can take on the entire city police force, kill hundreds of cops, blow up helicopters etc, and if I'm careful escape to a paint'n'spray and avoid any consequence.
That barely mirrors the real world.
GTAIV is a amazing jumble of contradictions and you cannot justify its violence and sadism (to either sex) as art reflecting reality, since it would seem barely any other part of the game matches reality.
I wanted a non-linear gaming experience, instead GTA IV forces you into pointless choices that make barely any difference to the outcome.
Sure at the end you two people close can die as a result of your choice however there is no way of knowing that either person would die when you make the choice.
All the choices in the game, letting people die or live barely make a difference to the mission tree. For example you have a choice of killing Dwayne or Playboy. Either benefit those two characters give you make absolutely no marginal difference to the how you play or the outcome.
Sigh....
I think video games need to get a grips with the violence and sex issue.
There are some games that are absolute works of art and deserve all the gritty realism, be it sex, or violence. Whilst other games glorify in those areas simply to increase turn over.
How many times has Kotaku shown as outrageous booby shoots, and games that have no value whatsoever and yet promote extreme violence?
I agree with the premise the human mind is shaped by many experiences, and that computer games are entirely responsible for the evils in the world. However the excesses of the computer game industry don't exactly help.
The industry as a whole should promote real works of art that have real moral choices to be made.
GTAIV is hardly a work of art.
PippinZ
Posted June 3, 2008 5:59 PM
In response to Chugs;
I haven't played GTAIV yet, but from what I gather from previous GTA titles the series tends to parody American popular culture, and parody the expectations of the people within that culture, rather then attempt to reflect reality. To me it seems natural that a game parodying modern American culture would take on a 'gritty' and 'realistic' facade, and exhibit occasional sexism.
PippinZ
Posted June 3, 2008 6:05 PM
[Unfortunate title for an article by the way, 'Anti-Feministing'? Urgh... Seems to imply Kotaku is anti-feminist.]
Kizaru
Posted June 4, 2008 2:42 AM
@ http://www.kotaku.com.au/games/2008/06/antifeministing_debunking_the_argument_against_gta_iv-2.html#c83072
That is a flawed perception of the game. When you play GTA IV, you CHOOSE to live the life of Niko Bellic. That also means accepting the choices he makes as a character. The argument made by Kotaku refers to the open world elements of the game.
"Hitting the Mafia bosses daughter and the nature of the of kidnapping in my view is sadistic.
The designers claim GTA IV gives the player freedom of choice. Well I wouldn't have chosen to kidnap the mafia daughters princess.
I would of just robbed, or killed the Mafia boss."
...
So, you're saying you would've chosen to take a life, no matter the person, rather than choose to kidnap for a demand?
Let me help you clarify those actions; choice A involves killing. Choice B doesn't.
What does that say about you?
LittleJacob
Posted June 4, 2008 3:54 AM
Gran Tef Ahto IV's jus anoda forma entahtenmont for I and I rasta, it no matta too moch about wheda ting's right o'not. Jus ahv fon, seen?
KingGorilla
Posted 2:42 AM 3/6/08
"In fact, with all due respect for the feminist community, demand for that sort of favoritism seems to breed resentment - perhaps even the very resentment that GTA IV provides the framework to explore. "
This quote probably puts things as simply and succinctly as I think I've ever read it explained. Excellent article!
KingGorilla
mackincheese
Posted 2:42 AM 3/6/08
Extremely well done. Someone already mentioned this, but it's good to read an article that considers both sides of the argument and takes each side seriously, even if it's not your personal opinion.
@Derek, IN: That doesn't make you a wuss, man. I'm the same way, and I think it's just another moral attitude your given the option to play the game with. ;)
mackincheese
Rajio
Posted 2:41 AM 3/6/08
Whats this? Rational, clear, and intellegent discource concerning video games? This is a pleasant supprise. Hopefully feministing responds in kind and we can continue with a productive conversation in the media.
Keep it up Leigh. It goes noticed, even if the commenters don't indicate as such.
Maybe Kotaku could invite someone to provide counterpoint?
Rajio
dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased
Posted 2:39 AM 3/6/08
You know, such efforts of furious writing might be better put to use on, you know, actual issues of discrimination/hate against women; I'm talking about Samhita here, not Alexander. I find it very odd that so many of these "professionals" spend so much time chasing after a video game that doesn't affect the world we live in beyond its entertainment value.
Will the world ever be fair? Not at all. If you look at the corporate world, you're either absolutely devious or you're very pretty if you're at the top of the chain. Sure, there are exceptions, but that hardly makes it fair.
In short, there are real problems with real people in this world, and going after GTA4 is such a joke. Scratch that - going after ANY video game is a joke. For example, the RE5 controversy... why such a backlash? There are much more severe forms of racism and discrimination taking place in the world we live in that demand our attention, and yet here we have our "professionals" writing insanely long diatribes on the pitfalls of popular media?? Gimme a break.
I'm not saying that the questions and issues that games raise are non-issues entirely. They are, indeed, subjects of controversy and shouldn't be brushed off - but at the same time, this kind of writing assumes that the audience is stupid. Get off your high horse. We're not all idiot gamers hopping on to XBL or PSN to throw racial slurs around. Many of us are intelligent adults who choose to game as a form of entertainment as opposed to soap operas, Sex and the City, or Desperate Housewives or whatever it is that forms popular women's entertainment (yeah, yeah, that doesn't apply to everyone, but I'm making a point).
The thing is, if you want to call out for fairness, you might want to take a look at the things you do yourself. While she may not have played the game, I've watched/read plenty of "women's entertainment" media and well, those things are no better than GTA4. That's not to say that Samhita DOES (I can't ever know that), but rather to say that women are just as guilty of enjoying low-blow entertainment. Ever watch your typical "chick flick"? Guy bashing is served on the menu almost every time. Hell, whenever I've been privy to sit in on a circle of women, guy bashing is pretty much the staple topic.
I chalk it up to simple insecurity. If a piece of entertainment threatens you, you have a complex. That's it. We have things that glorify serial killers, rapists, thieves, and altogether evil people. Evil is a temptation for everyone and thankfully, most of us ignore it. However, as a form of entertainment, we celebrate it because these are things we wouldn't dare do to real people, male or female, human or not. We don't go watch creature features to root for the hero to slay the beast outright - we want to see people die! When we hear about controversial subject matter in entertainment, we don't avoid it; we go and find it ourselves and take a look at what everyone's talking about. Sit on your moral high horse all you want, but enjoying taboo things is fun because, well, it's taboo! Does it mean I'm going to translate my entertainment to the real world? No! It doesn't. And for 99.99% of the people out there, they're not going to do it either because the entertainment is a sufficient form of release. Does that mean we are then justified to destroy a form of entertainment because 00.01% of us are crazy? No!
The problem is nobody wants to dig and find the root cause. They just want to get rid of the obvious stuff that's in their faces. Fact of the matter is, if you want to solve a problem, you want to go to the heart of it, and frankly, my dear, video games aren't it.
dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased
ukslim
Posted 2:38 AM 3/6/08
@Lu-Tze: No, strippers != burlesque, but I think overall, the paragraph holds up. I balked a little at the blanket statement that strippers choose to do it (having spent an unpleasant half hour in a Slovakian strip joint where the girls made it quite obvious they'd choose to be anywhere else if there were jobs available). But the article goes on to say that not all choices are the best choices, and choices narrowed by circumstance are still choices.
ukslim
agies
Posted 2:38 AM 3/6/08
Excellent article. I think it's safe to say that she has every right to be concerned, it's just that her concerns aren't justified.
In my play through GTA IV I was never explicitly told to kill or harm any female characters. The only thing that comes close is the kidnapping sequence detailed above and the missions that follow it. If anything GTA IV paints females in a better light than males. All of the men in GTA IV are criminals of one sort or another, from drug dealers to crooked cops out to make a name for themselves. Even Roman sends you out on a mission with Little Jacob knowing fully well the kinds of things that will happen. The women on the other hand are not wholly bad people and range from the fairly powerful drug dealing Elizabeta to straight as an arrow Kate with a fair number of characters in between. More importantly though, women are portrayed as being anything but weak.
agies
CFStang
Posted 2:37 AM 3/6/08
Excellent piece Leigh, this is why I love Kotaku. It gives me some wonderful rebuttals to go back into the real world with. I wholeheartedly agree with everything. I always thought Feminism is about getting women to be recognized at the same level as men, to be our equals in everything from jobs to common everyday interaction to politics, not above them, right?
CFStang
ShaggE
Posted 2:36 AM 3/6/08
@NobleRemus: I agree with there being plenty of fun non-violent/non-sexual things to do in the game. 99% of the times that I pop the disc in, the first thing I do is just go driving around looking for ramps. It's a blast, and unless I end up landing on a pedestrian, completely non-violent. And that's just one example of many. I also like exploring for easter eggs and whatnot, and watching the peds go about their business. (I'm always seeing them do something new... it's incredible)
And when I *do* go on rampages, it's to see the physics engine in action. Euphoria is amazing.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't like the violent aspects of the game, but more often than not, killing is the last thing on my mind while playing.
As for misogyny, you could say the same thing about Mario. "Help me, Mario! Help me!"
ShaggE
vanderblade
Posted 2:36 AM 3/6/08
An enjoyable read, Leigh. However, I have to disagree with one thing.
You mention GTA's "flawless driving mechanics or its watertight gameplay." I think the driving is actually fairly jarring at first and takes getting used to. Hardly flawless and very rooted in its unique feel. As for the watertight gameplay, I find the mission structures annoyingly repetitive, the ultimate "freedom" allotted to the player actually restricting once taken from a broader perspective and most of the actual "playing" to consist of drive from point A to point B, engage in a better but still arguably flawed shooting mechanic, and then escape cops by, stay with me here, driving. Pretty watertight indeed, just like a well insulated body bag.
Otherwise, I thought your argument was well thought out, if not a tad bit defensive - but hey, as a gamer, I understand.
vanderblade
SigmundTheSeaMonster
Posted 2:35 AM 3/6/08
@thefais: Right on!
SigmundTheSeaMonster
SuperCollider
Posted 2:33 AM 3/6/08
Hey, I put a good amount of time into my relationship with Michelle, before she two-timed me! And what about Kate McKreary? Is the fact that she doesn't put out, despite Niko Bellic's feelings toward her, an expression of hate towards women? PUH-LEEZ.
SuperCollider
gils0n
Posted 2:33 AM 3/6/08
Fantastic write up Leigh. You made a lot of great points. Thanks for that.
gils0n
DashTheHand
Posted 2:33 AM 3/6/08
I hated that blonde bitch anyways. She ruined my mission three times in a row by rolling the damn car. I was close to shooting her instead of taking a picture as payback.
Regardless, the GTA series are games that highlights the over-the-top side of violence, crime, and other stereotypes. Why this woman gets so violated by it is more amusing than Jack Thompson thinking its a crime trainer for kids.
DashTheHand
theonlydoublej
Posted 2:30 AM 3/6/08
This is a very well constructed and thought out piece. Great job Leigh.
theonlydoublej
Arklop
Posted 2:29 AM 3/6/08
"Who's Raising Our Kids?"
Aren't you? They're your kids. right?
Arklop
Version135b
Posted 2:29 AM 3/6/08
Well written to be sure.. But a simple "Know your roll bitch!" Would have been just fine and more than deserved!!!
Version135b
Eville1
Posted 2:29 AM 3/6/08
Very nice break down. All the more resonating coming from a female writer. I agree whole heartedly. The lines,"To call misogyny here is divisive, actually, implying that the treatment of women needs to be elevated above the treatment of any other group - as if "woman" were a separate, special "race" with a unified mind. We aren't, thank you." Are especially truthful and I am glad to hear you say it.
I look at it like this.."When you're no longer first off the life raft I'll give you the extra 75 cents an hour average you seem to be missing from my own pocket."
Eville1
juniorlikespie
Posted 2:29 AM 3/6/08
nicely put i for one actually read the whole thing. don't do that often.
juniorlikespie
DugDawg
Posted 2:28 AM 3/6/08
Well written piece, Leigh, and this is an interesting topic. One of the great aspects of GTA IV is that it constantly makes you consider Niko's actions. Part of the reason for this is that the situations you find yourself in within the game are so well written, voice-acted and orchestrated. The characters stand out as more than just video game characters. Many of them have a human element that the player can identify with -- hence the moral dilemma.
DugDawg
rotcepsurt
Posted 2:28 AM 3/6/08
@jmuskratt: Its the job of society to raise children properly, not the parent's.
rotcepsurt
Leigh Alexander
Posted 2:27 AM 3/6/08
@-MoarPlz-: One more thing I want to highlight, for you and others, from the beginning of my article:
"Feminist interest blog Feministing certainly thinks so - though not because of this mission scene from later in the game."
The original article I was rebutting did not raise this sequence. I did, because it makes you think. I viewed that portion of the game while I was preparing this article, and it's certainly an uncomfortable moment to watch in this context.
Leigh Alexander
kidjesus
Posted 2:26 AM 3/6/08
Good, well-thought-out response. Personally, I only had one complaint about the prostitutes in IV: why are there no skinny black prostitutes, and no fat white ones? That still strikes me as kind of messed up.
@thefais: I could be wrong about this, but the really ironic thing is that violent crime levels have decreased in America as video games have become more popular. Go figure!
kidjesus
-MoarPlz-
Posted 2:25 AM 3/6/08
@-MoarPlz-: Argh! *shouldn't breed* sorry.
-MoarPlz-
Leigh Alexander
Posted 2:24 AM 3/6/08
@NobleRemus: You are quite right, and maybe my language was a little blankety, but I thought I'd be safe with the word "primarily." Point taken :\
Leigh Alexander
CCCombobreaker
Posted 2:24 AM 3/6/08
@futurebiblehero:
How was that a "race jab"? He was pointing out the fact that someone WOULD complain in the same way samhita complained about the portrayal of women in GTAIV.
CCCombobreaker
-MoarPlz-
Posted 2:23 AM 3/6/08
A very interesting read. Although I do respect Feminist views of the world, it does sadden me when they often just point the 'misogyny' finger at everything.
The main problem is that she went in without the full facts. For example, they kidnapped her to get diamonds. It has nothing to do with hate against women, she was merely a way of getting at her mob boss dad. What if he had a son instead of a daughter? Would the mission be completely different? I doubt it.
I do think that they need to wake up and face facts - GTA IS NOT A DAMN KIDS GAME and if your child IS playing it, then you have no right to blame the developers for the game. It's not their fault you cannot regulate what games, music, tv shows and films they watch. Some people should breed if they come out with arguments like that.
-MoarPlz-
3inst3in
Posted 2:21 AM 3/6/08
well written piece Leigh. thanks.
3inst3in
futurebiblehero
Posted 2:20 AM 3/6/08
@Beatboxtaun: I knew someone would get a race jab in. Awesome. Internet, you never fail me.
futurebiblehero
C-Section
Posted 2:20 AM 3/6/08
Very interesting read. You make many good points and it's well written.
C-Section
TitillatedOcelot
Posted 2:19 AM 3/6/08
Spot on article, Leigh. You managed to pull this criticism apart quite thoroughly. The game isn't particularily kind or cruel to any one group of individuals.
TitillatedOcelot
thefais
Posted 2:19 AM 3/6/08
Great read!
The game definitely asks you to consider moral depravity, and see how far down the rabbit hole you go. Will you solicit prostitutes just to kill them and get your money back? Will you systematically murder homeless people? Or will you drive at top speed down a crowded sidewalk to work off the frustration of failing "Three Leaf Clover" for the tenth time?
Until strong evidence can be made between actions in violent video games and real life, then I'll take notice. Right now the best there is is anecdotal evidence, and jury-manipulating tales of 'GTA made me brutally kill 2 people'.
thefais
NobleRemus
Posted 2:19 AM 3/6/08
Good rebuttal Leigh. Just one question though: why do you assert that "... it would be untruthful on our part to say that anyone plays GTA IV primarily for its engrossing story ..."?
The story and gameplay are why I play these games, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Moreover, I found it compelling to play this game as conscientiously as possible, attempting a "crook with a heart of gold" interpretation of Niko by never killing civilians, and only shooting cops in the legs, and then only when escape wasn't an option. Essentially, I played it like a Hitman game, where sloppiness and collateral damage is to be avoided at all costs. I found this to be a great deal of fun.
I wouldn't presume to argue that a majority, perhaps overwhelmingly so, play this game for the mayhem. But it's a very broad game, so why paint us all with the same broad brush?
NobleRemus
Lu-Tze
Posted 2:18 AM 3/6/08
Strippers != Burlesque. Critical Fail.
Certainly not when referring to the ones that are parallels to those as shown in GTA.
Lu-Tze
jmuskratt
Posted 2:18 AM 3/6/08
Turn. On. The. Parental. Controls. Little Impressionable Timmy didn't buy that 360 with his own money.
Argument settled.
jmuskratt
slomo788
Posted 2:18 AM 3/6/08
Very nice read.
slomo788
indemnitypop
Posted 2:18 AM 3/6/08
Excellent points. What if GTA had a reward mechanism for "good" acts, if there was a storyline for choosing not to be a hit-man, car thief, rampaging, violent, mass murderer. If being nice was still fun, would people still choose the violence, and would giving players that option make people rethink their criticisms of the games?
indemnitypop
Graedus
Posted 2:18 AM 3/6/08
A pretty blonde mob princess--is in another castle.
Graedus
Krondonian
Posted 2:17 AM 3/6/08
Wow, it's great to read an article that actually considers the points of the opposition's argument. Too many times I've heard, 'it's just a game, live with it. Rock and Roll, Film and Television all were blamed first.' I think only by going over each of these points and carefully displaying flaws of logic from both sides- in the specific context of videogames here- is the way forward.
So hats of to you, Leigh.
Krondonian
screamingslave
Posted 2:16 AM 3/6/08
GTA IV is as easy to attack as it is to defend, especially when the article in question is written by someone who obviously never played the game. I think a question people need to start asking is why do people feel they can comment on video games without having played through them themselves, but don't comment on movies they've never seen or songs they've never listened to? Sit down. Play GTA IV. Come back when you've beaten the game and we'll talk about it.
screamingslave
Number 6
Posted 2:16 AM 3/6/08
If it doesn't come out of the NJIT Womens Studies program I don't pay any attention to it.
This blog is just as bad as Fox Noise and the re-branded CNN if you ask me.
"The Women of GTA4 are in Peril! PERIL I tell you!Doom doom doom some more doom with a side order of doom."
Number 6
invictus2006
Posted 2:16 AM 3/6/08
for fuck sake its just a game. We play games so we dont have to do bad shit in real life
invictus2006
Beatboxtaun
Posted 2:15 AM 3/6/08
You know you'd having someone complain if it were not a woman but a person of different ethnicity. So no matter who was bound and gagged, there would still be someone bitching somewhere.
Beatboxtaun
Derek, IN
Posted 2:15 AM 3/6/08
Great article. Very thought provoking. I'm kind of a wuss, so I try to play with some modicum of morality. I don't just kill people for no reason.
Derek, IN
Grumps
Posted 2:15 AM 3/6/08
I love the chick you meet on craplist. Take her to the bar, she is one crazy drunk with an awesome knowledge of the english language.
Grumps
KcP
Posted 2:14 AM 3/6/08
Do you have women because you play GTA IV? Not necessarily. Are you participating in and propagating sexist media? Probably. Then again, most people participate in sexism without even realizing it. Look, GTA has most certainly come to represent elements of real life, and let's face it: there is sexism in real life. Just because it's recreated in a virtual form that doesn't relieve you of responsibility for participating in it. This video game does not exist in a vacuum.
KcP
CCCombobreaker
Posted 2:11 AM 3/6/08
The sad thing is that she won't address the fact that she is completely wrong nor will she apologize to her readers. Its a bit depressing. It makes it all seem pointless. Why even bother defending games if no one on the other side gives a shit?
On a related note, feminist organizations are a complete joke.
CCCombobreaker
ChellABD
Posted 2:11 AM 3/6/08
Bravo. I've had to defend video games several times against these types of arguments by pointing out that the same thing exists in music, movies--hell, nearly any medium.
ChellABD
StupidityTries
Posted 2:10 AM 3/6/08
Great read.
I've tried to play GTA before, but it's actually the violence against women that threw me off - just makes me feel dirty... although I've got no problem with shooting and driving over people - call it hypocrisy, but it's just my reality.
StupidityTries
Kamesen
Posted 2:10 AM 3/6/08
Aww hell...
Kamesen
ASchwarzenegger
Posted 2:09 AM 3/6/08
wah wah wah...Call the wah-mbulance
ASchwarzenegger
ASchwarzenegger
Posted 2:08 AM 3/6/08
wah wah wah..Call the wah-mbulance
ASchwarzenegger
PowerButton
Posted 2:08 AM 3/6/08
Its ok kill men, torture men, show nude men, decapitaded, kick-in-the-nuts jokes.... But its "rage againts women" to show a women being held hostage.
What a shame of society we have
PowerButton
kidko
Posted 3:05 AM 3/6/08
@IlliniJen: Great comment!
kidko
Noris
Posted 3:04 AM 3/6/08
"Is Grand Theft Auto IV an expression of hate towards women? Are those who enjoy it misogynists?"
What a weak lead-in. Using extremes/absolutes like the above quote is poor form.
Noris
Molockian
Posted 3:03 AM 3/6/08
good point on the Elizabeta being a boss, but my god that was the best part of the game when she shot that fake rapper!
Molockian
wicko
Posted 3:02 AM 3/6/08
@badasscat: MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS
I agree with your last point. However, about playing favourites.. I was under the assumption that GTA4 was trying to model crime as it exists today? How many female gang leaders do you know about? How many male prostitutes have you seen? Did you know that Niko's male cousin gets kidnapped long before any female kidnappings occur?
The goal of dating is actually up to the player. The actual goal is to get the characters to like you. You can "try your luck" if you want to, and if thats your goal, well maybe you should re-consider your priorities. How is this any different from life today?
Rockstar isn't playing favourites. They're only modelling todays world, and I doubt it would be believable if they started throwing in females/(some race) into the story to even it out, much like a hiring company filling its "quota".
wicko
Footix
Posted 3:02 AM 3/6/08
Come on, these games do ruin men! After playing Golgo 13 on the Nintendo Entertainment System as a young lad I was confused and angry when I would meet women that would not sleep with me after I completed a task, like a difficult book report or bully assassination.
(But seriously, great write up! Funny how actually playing the game allows for such a good rebuttal...)
Footix
3inst3in
Posted 3:01 AM 3/6/08
@dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased: don't you see?? solving real world problems is hard, difficult, really really infuriatingly difficult. much easier to go after the defenseless target. they can *do* something about those. or at least appear to be doing something. pass a law, or get scare parents, maybe end up on the 8 oclock news.
3inst3in
ParisDyre
Posted 3:01 AM 3/6/08
@badasscat: "Ok, then are they also 'not playing favorites' when... the goal of dating women in the game is to have sex". I think in most heterosexual relationships, that would definatly be the goal.
ParisDyre
kidko
Posted 3:01 AM 3/6/08
I managed to finish the main story yesterday without killing one female. The only violence toward a woman character at all was during that kidnapping mission, and I'd say she got off pretty light considering she yanked on the steering wheel of the car while we were going about 60MPH which flipped the car.
kidko
kPod
Posted 3:00 AM 3/6/08
Who fancies some rule63-age on GTA4?
Well Masculists be running rampant over it then?
kPod
Eclectified
Posted 2:58 AM 3/6/08
Maybe the next GTA will feature a female lead character and then, masculist groups will begin to develop fighting the fact that you can pick up a jigalo(sp?) and run HIM over with a car or go ballistic in a male strip club. I'd bet that the feminist groups would PROMOTE that game though.
Seriously... all these specialist groups like the feminist groups and MADD really need to be a little less willing to jump to conclusions and a little more willing to think before they speak.
There's a thing called 'groupthink' and I suspect that this runs rampant at these specialist groups.
Groupthink - [www.google.com]
Eclectified
RPGr
Posted 2:57 AM 3/6/08
I'm a super wuss at the game. I don't kill people unless they deserve it. Mostly the only reason I play GTA is just to explore (in which committing crimes hinders). I like unhindered exploration both in real life and in my games.
The only time I knowingly killed someone in GTA so far is some dude that ran me over in his car while I was legally crossing the street.
I make a point of playing the game the way I want to play. I just wished the programmers allowed you to "win" the game by taking on on jobs and amassing enough money to become rich rather than go through with killing.
RPGr
DevCo
Posted 2:56 AM 3/6/08
Samhita is going to be single or gay forever.
DevCo
DigitalHero
Posted 2:56 AM 3/6/08
Ban Monday for overly long posts? Witzbold you ready? =P
DigitalHero
freshv8
Posted 2:55 AM 3/6/08
wonderful post! this is what videogame jouranlism should adhere to. GTA IV is as close to art as we're going to get and for it to offend shows its power. Contrast the potentially offensive matierial in it to Postal. Oh God, why did I mention that film?
freshv8
geiko
Posted 2:54 AM 3/6/08
@screamingslave: Word on that comment. I don't think they realize how stupid they are when they do this. The least they could do is get a kid who plays the game to play it for them for a few hours. That would at least give them a feel of what the game is about. But they're too stubborn. Oh well, maybe next time.
geiko
zerokoolpsx
Posted 2:54 AM 3/6/08
I enjoyed how you dissected her argument, and debunked all her supporting statements.
I love this line:
"We're trying to give gamers freedom. It boils down to critics not liking the fact that people can choose to do 'bad' things in a fantasy world - which to me is silly."
Yes, no choice, no freedom, and where do we live again?
The girls can be just as ruthless as the guys, Samhita just totally fails to even remotely notice it in this game, and mention it in the game, which I doubt, she even played.
No one can play GTAIV without breaking the law, then you just stripped out about 100% of the fun.
Her views are naive, plain and simple.
zerokoolpsx
The_Foo
Posted 2:53 AM 3/6/08
I like taking a hooker out for a quickie, then driving off fullspeed before I pay her. It's just like what I do in real life, sitting in my house and sobbing quietly while masturbating to camgirls.
The_Foo
Gouki4u
Posted 2:53 AM 3/6/08
Nice article, Leigh. I'm glad there are people who can write cogent rebuttals to these uninformed histrionics. I usually just roll my eyes, and rant a little.
The same template for Feministing's complaint could be used to proclaim GTA IV as racist. Anyone could make a video of only beating up black pedestrians, and there is a mission in which the player storms the projects, and has to kill a veritable horde of the people who live there, ending with a gang member pleading for his life on a rooftop.
Does that make the game racist? No. You can do these things, but not exclusively. If the game limited itself to only brutalizing minorities then I'd say yes. So if the only thing to do in GTA IV was beat up women I'd say the writer over at Feministing has a point, but as this clearly not the case to anyone who has actually played the game the argument can be chalked up alongside all the other ill-informed criticisms of video games.
Somebody at IGN should be smacked around for releasing that video.
Gouki4u
mva5580
Posted 2:52 AM 3/6/08
@dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased: This post wins. Shut this topic down, no reason to read on. Well freaking done.
And I love your name lol. Excellent.
mva5580
IlliniJen
Posted 2:51 AM 3/6/08
I'm a girl gamer and happen to LOVE GTA4. What you don't see mentioned from these folks who have genuine concerns but no actual first-hand experience with the game is the existence of female characters that have a positive influence on the game/Niko, like Kate (and I would argue even Michelle).
GTA is meant to be a parody of American entertainment, the American Dream and our obsession with violence. It is also not meant for children, hence the M rating. It comes down to: are people smart enough to "get it" and are parents doing their job to not only screen what they let their children see/do, but teaching their kids the difference between real life and entertainment?
Video games are not where I go to find accurate and fair portrayals of females. There is a sexist trend in the gaming industry for the same reason there is a sexist trend in Maxim magazine: the primary audience is male. You don't find, and really wouldn't expect, many companies really caring about representing the female voice or the female gamer, although I do think that's changing. Mostly due to better, more storyline-driven games coming out that see games as a complete package and not just gameplay alone.
I think this is just another opportunist pile-on of what is a great game that has its tongue firmly in its cheek. There are plenty of people who want their 15 minutes and even those who have legitimate concerns about how women are portrayed in the game, but have zero experience with the game or the gaming industry in general. A lot of smart people's time and energy is wasted on an issue they really don't understand...and I'd wish they'd focus on things they can affect.
IlliniJen
DeanoTheDino
Posted 2:50 AM 3/6/08
I didn't enjoy it.
The bitch kept fuckin punching me.
I flipped the car and failed the mission because she turned it onto a ramp.
Fuckin slag.
DeanoTheDino
wicko
Posted 2:49 AM 3/6/08
@Arklop: lol. No need for the parents when you've got an electronic babysitter!
wicko
Crawl to China
Posted 2:48 AM 3/6/08
good read. well written.
Crawl to China
francoamerica
Posted 2:47 AM 3/6/08
The argument that this is not a kids game only goes so far as no matter how much regulation from government and parents exists, kids will manage to get their hands on things they are interested in, especially when they are not supposed to have it. I found the part of the article looking at kids getting their first experiences of sex from this game to be pretty interesting. Compared to how kids used to learn about sex, playboy followed by cinemax, GTA seems to indicate a violent trend in our sexual education system. Playboy now appears to be quite innocent in fact.
The thing is, sexual violence towards women is dramatically decreasing. That's the big picture people like this woman aren't really interested in looking at. GTA may be an extreme case today, but so was Playboy and softcore porn on TV and hardcore porn on the internet. The same arguments have been said about all of these, yet no one really looks back and realizes not only that things turned out alright, but, in fact, things are getting much much better.
francoamerica
SAKY
Posted 2:46 AM 3/6/08
@optimusprym8: ah your first introduction to the product bad parenting.....snot-nosed kids on XBL. Makes me glad the number of these types has dropped off recently in COD4.
SAKY
Lu-Tze
Posted 2:45 AM 3/6/08
@ukslim: The paragraph holds up, but it's an unneeded and frankly inaccurate placement of the word. Some of my best friends are Burlesque dancers, and seeing it in the same sentence as "sex workers" irritates me greatly.
Lu-Tze
badasscat
Posted 2:44 AM 3/6/08
I don't really see how any of the points above even begin to get at the idea of whether or not the game is misogynistic. They all dance around the issue. "You can play it how you want", "It's rated M", etc. I mean, yeah, so what? It can still be a misogynistic game in its portrayal of women and their relationships to men. I mean, you do have to still go through the story, unless you completely choose to ignore the missions and just play multiplayer or something.
The only actual example refuted up there is that of the kidnapping missions. That doesn't really begin to scratch the surface of the issue. Even if the kidnapping was removed from the game entirely, the question would still be there. And the rebuttal is convoluted anyway - so, it's because Rockstar's not playing favorites that a woman gets kidnapped? Ok, then are they also "not playing favorites" when every main character in every GTA game is a man, when every gang in the game is run by men, when the goal of dating women in the game is to have sex, etc. etc.? Seems to me they sure are playing favorites when it suits them.
Whether the game as a whole actually is or it isn't misogynistic is not something I'm going to attempt to tackle in a blog comment. I'm just saying there's nothing much up there in this post that proves that it isn't.
Also, one last thing:
Is Grand Theft Auto IV an expression of hate towards women? Are those who enjoy it misogynists?
Wrong question, because it a) oversimplifies, and b) inflames. Of course, anybody who reads that without thinking about it is going to react negatively. "No way, I'm no misogynist! Therefore, the opposing argument must be wrong!"
The problem is this is not the question. The question is whether the work in question is misogynist, not those that either create or enjoy it. You can enjoy misogynistic media without yourself being a misogynist. Is someone who watches "Mean Streets" or "Taxi Driver" automatically a misogynist? Is Martin Scorsese one just because he made these movies? No, to both questions.
If we're going to have a real discussion of these issues, it's going to go a lot better without calling people names right off the bat (or insinuating that the "other side" is doing so). Nobody likes to be called names, so you're adding a bias to your entire audience right off the bat.
badasscat
SAKY
Posted 2:44 AM 3/6/08
great read.
Note to Rockstar, make the lead character in the next game a woman.
SAKY
optimusprym8
Posted 2:44 AM 3/6/08
playing a bit of GTAIV MP over the weekend, it made me realise that the File Complaint feature of Live needs the option for "Underage person playing title rated higher" as I came up against nothing but little kids calling me nigger and threatening to fuck my Mum.
optimusprym8
kidjesus
Posted 2:44 AM 3/6/08
@vanderblade: Re: her comment about "flawless driving mechanics or its watertight gameplay?" Pretty sure she was using sarcasm to drive home a point. I could be wrong though, have been before.
kidjesus
KcP
Posted 3:29 AM 3/6/08
@farrietan: "It seems women only want equality when it works for them." What the hell does that even mean? It seems you like to lump all women together in broad statements about their motivations when it works for you.
KcP
enigma89
Posted 3:26 AM 3/6/08
I think this whole think is ridiculous since she doesn't know the first thing about Grand Theft Auto and Kotaku is giving her 15 minutes-of-fame. This woman isn't even a rational feminist. She'd probably say McDonald's oppresses women because she got one less Chicken McNugget than she asked for at the drive-thru. I can't believe you even took this woman's words seriously enough to give her several paragraphs of response.
enigma89
Excalibur
Posted 3:25 AM 3/6/08
An excellent article! You've really come up with some thoughtful and well-constructed points here, Leigh.
Excalibur
geiko
Posted 3:24 AM 3/6/08
OMG I just came back from the feministing site and it was horrible. *wipes tears* I was looking for the article and got lost. It was the most horrifying experience ever!!!
*pulls covers over head*
geiko
myDingling
Posted 3:23 AM 3/6/08
It's sad this kind of article had to appear on Kotaku. Once again we have the "gaming right" trying to defend their hobby by using logical inconsitencies and inane, ignorant assumptions about schools of critical thinking. I'm in little mood to write an essay so I will only address a couple of the most jarring points made by Alexander.
"a game that makes this behavior possible is "misogynistic"?"
Yes it is. Just because it is trying to be a reflection of the real world, the grittiness and the awfulness therein, does not mean the game gets a free pass when depicting social behaviors that recreate past systems of oppression. We live in a misogynistic world. GTA, by trying to recreate that setting in all it's "realness" is perpetuating that misogyny. Just because you don't have to take part in beati prostitutes and going to strip clubs doesn't ignore the fact that these things actually exist (both in the real world and in the game) and thus make the game misogynistic.
GTA is providing a vehicle for creating/recreating violence against women and objectifying the female body as a tool for men's sexual pleasure. This may not be YOUR behavior, your actions, nor your decisions both in the real world and in GTA, but the fact that it's in there does not mean we should ignore it. Misogyny is not the sole problem of those who commit explicit acts against the human rights of women, rather, misogyny is the problem of all society, those men who act in such a manner and those who don't, those women who are affected by oppressive culture and those who have chosen to pereptuate it. GTA is fair game to to be singled out as misogynist since it deals with these issues and at best does nothing to fix them, and at worst is helping people perform these awful acts of violence through virtual simulation. Rockstar has no responsibility to be progressive in its artistic expression, but that does not absolve it from blame when it chooses to perpetuate oppressive cultural values.
Alexander's second point I will address: "To call misogyny here is divisive, actually, implying that the treatment of women needs to be elevated above the treatment of any other group - as if "woman" were a separate, special "race" with a unified mind. We aren't, thank you."
This is going back to the whole race debate in RE5. Simply put, Alexander does not seem to be aware or accepting of the historical oppression against women that even today pervades throughout contemporary society. Alexander herself may not feel the repercussions of a misogynist/sexist world, but the fact of the matter is that a significant number of the female population has been affected negatively by patriarchal societies. The prostitutes in GTA? They probably got there by being born into a culture of poverty that denied them a proper education and forced them in an early age into a culture of drugs and violence. Their identity as females was sexualized and objectified within this culture likely coercing them into a dangerous world of violence and sex. Perhaps Alexander is too privileged to understand this perspective, but it nonetheless exists and women are unequally targeted for adversity in such a society. The stats and research are all there; please read about it if you don't know anything about it, and if you do please try and understand the very real repercussions of such a society even if it may not apply to your direct experience (which is likely coming from a very privileged stance).
Gamers, please be more informed about social issues and critical thinking methods before going off on a rant about "feminism" and "racism." These issues go beyond your personal experience and have very real consequences for other people.
myDingling
asTer0id
Posted 3:22 AM 3/6/08
@Leigh Alexander: agreed, and looking over the article again, you indeed do not say that criticism is invalid.
I think people are afraid that video games are instructive because of the nature of the medium. Consumers of video games enjoy a level of agency they do not in books or movies. The ability to choose to perform acts that have direct consequences is one of the things that scares people. From my perspective, a game like GTA that depicts realistic consequences of player actions is better than other forms of media even those specifically for children, like say, certain cartoons, where violent acts often have NO consequences.
asTer0id
farrietan
Posted 3:21 AM 3/6/08
Great read! It seems women only want equality when it works for them.
farrietan
taidan19
Posted 3:20 AM 3/6/08
I'm glad to see a rebuttal against such a ridiculous argument, but I don't think GTA IV is an essay on anything.
taidan19
JamesR87
Posted 3:18 AM 3/6/08
I am simply not going to read any more about this because the Feminist view these days is often no more than quote-mining in the respect that they take things like "WOMEN BOUND AND CONTROLLED BY MEN" out of context to make it more extreme.
Where are the men with their hands in the air about similar things? Too busy playing the game and realizing that's all it is. Thats where.
JamesR87
Zaos
Posted 3:15 AM 3/6/08
Dating sims have been out for awhile
City Carnage is popular
Mafia is popular
Guns / Mission based stuff is popular
prison is popular
where does it say "sexism is popular", i don't hate women but if the mission calls for the kidnapping of a girl then i'll do it, do i have thoughts like that irl? sh* no, i couldn't live with myself as a human.
spoilers proving how stupid it is to call this sexist:
elizabetha is a woman in power, a mafia wife is subsurvient to her husband because hes crazy, another mafia wife stands up against killers. another woman lies and backstabs you as a government agent. can go on about women in this game thats not relating to hookers or kidnapping the mafia persons daughter where you are trying to get at the mafia person. nothing to do with the girl herself. you only tie her up to keep her quiet and from driving the car off the road =p
Zaos
agies
Posted 3:14 AM 3/6/08
@DevCo: One would presume that when someone is gay they are indeed gay forever.
agies
Leigh Alexander
Posted 3:14 AM 3/6/08
@asTer0id: I absolutely didn't write that criticism is invalid. I aimed to stress that regardless of where the content appears, difficult or ugly topics in media are aimed to make us consider our positions - not as a handbook for "what to think and do." Just because video games are interactive doesn't mean they're instructive.
Leigh Alexander
ThatsMrOffDutyNinja
Posted 3:12 AM 3/6/08
Good argument for both sides, I now have more tools to defend the games I choose to play. And now to call Mr.Beck.
ThatsMrOffDutyNinja
Silverbackne
Posted 3:09 AM 3/6/08
This week in Overthinking Video Games...
Silverbackne
tinkyXIII
Posted 3:09 AM 3/6/08
I just love people that write sensationalistic articles based on media they have no intimate knowledge of for the purpose of garnering attention to their little website.
In all seriousness, I knew she was full of it as soon as I read the bit about children being "force-fed" violence. I'm sorry, but parents are the ones responsible for what their children see, especially at a young age and anyone who tries to say otherwise needs a reality check.
tinkyXIII
asTer0id
Posted 3:08 AM 3/6/08
this is a well written piece. I agree with most of it, except the argument that criticism of GTA is invalid because the same kind of content already exists in music, movies, books etc. Just because content exists, doesn't mean that no one can question or re-evaluate precendents that have already been set; or separately evaluate new forms of media that have similar content. If they truly are benign, they should be able to stand up to objective scrutiny on their own.
asTer0id
asTer0id
Posted 3:51 AM 3/6/08
@myDingling: surely you agree that culture and media are reflections of each other. From your argument, the way to make a non-misogynistic game is to make one which has no prostitution, no negative stereotypes of women and no recreation of female oppression, even if they exist in the world today, unless the purpose of the game is to actively discourage them. Is wilful ignorance/pretense that these problems dont exist the best way to deal with it?
IMO, realistically depicting these situations opens our eyes to a kind of culture we would never encounter or see in our daily, privileged lives. Just because it doesnt sermonize the evils of society and lets us be part of it, doesn't mean that it justifies or normalizes it. I look at a lot of content in GTA as satire. All you need to do is a get in a car and turn the radio on to figure that out.
As for your argument about the historical oppression of women and the culture and socio economic conditions that cause prostitution, drugs and violence against women, no one is denying that. I dont think GTA implies that prostitutes are there by choice, nor do I think that the game sensationalizes their presence. You are right, it isn't Rockstars responsibility to be progressive in their artistic vision, but to imply that they are choosing to promote oppressive cultural values is a bit much. No one forces you in the game to go to a strip club or beat women up. Let me tell you not once have I done that in the game, cause it simply doesn't appeal to me. Don't forget that women/prostitutes aren't the only ones against whom violent acts can be performed. They can be performed against anyone you choose. Portraying GTA in such narrow selective terms is an unfair assessment of it.
asTer0id
Excalibur
Posted 3:50 AM 3/6/08
@MoaM: You're certainly right in that I'd love to see more games that are art as a "hammer" as you put it but until then, a mirror is a mirror and a hammer is a hammer. As much as you want a hammer, don't expect your mirror to do a good job of smashing anything. The point of a mirror is to show what may have otherwise not been visible and while Rockstar's mirror is covered in soot, you can still see out of it if you squint.
Excalibur
thesycophant
Posted 3:46 AM 3/6/08
Good rebuttal, but it always pains me to see the flippant disregard of any analytical thinking by the gaming community. Here on Kotaku, people are always quick to cite things like "Well, if the kingpin had a son, instead of a daughter, then..." but the thing is that video games are art, and as such were created by people who made decisions. There is often meaning in those decisions. These missions are not organically occurring in the real world; designers and writers made them up. There are some valid concerns to be had about this medium. So what is it? Is it to be considered valid and meaningful or not?
And I haven't played GTA personally, but I'm cool with it, really. Doesn't really look like my bag, and I'm a Wii-owner. But it seems like it could have some social value that isn't strictly poisonous.
But once I watched a friend's three-year-old daughter knife a prostitute on the streets of... wherever GTA III was set.
thesycophant
rednightsky86
Posted 3:44 AM 3/6/08
I have so much to say about this. I created a Women's Studies special major at my university and it revolves around video games. I take classes where I can write research papers about video games.
For those of you who say it is the parents who raise the kids you are partially wrong. Parents have some influence on a child's life, but the most important relationship is that of a child with their peers (especially those who are a couple years older). Through symbolic interactionism children learn their role in society by how they see others act (which also means that video games are not the main source of socialization).
And for all of you who think that violent video games make violent people, this is not necessarily true. A person may be more likely to have violent thoughts, but they are not more likely to act on them. The people who act on these violent thoughts often show violent tendencies before their exposure to video games.
For those of you who are lumping all feminists in with this person, saying that all we do is attack men's actions, that is not true. I believe that a lot of the one sided nature of video games (meaning that on the whole they are geared towards a male audience) is because girls are socialized not to play games. Video games within the past twenty years have been a child's first introduction into technology. When they don't get this intro, they often are behind with their tech skills for the rest of their lives. This means that many women don't have a strong tech background. This is supported by the grades that girls and boys get in stem subjects on the standardized tests (SATS and APs) where boys usually score higher. The enrollment of women in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) decreases by half every degree higher you get in college (BS, masters, phd). this means that the people who make games now are mostly males who experienced a male gaming world when growing up.
I think the GTA is sexist, but what in our lives isn't. Look at TV, textbooks, pension laws, welfare, etc, etc, etc. Video games have unfairly become a scapegoat. And games are not sexist towards just women. The majority of game boxes that feature people feature hypersexualized men. If we are to attack the game in anyway we should do so fairly and represent all sides. Women are not the only ones unfairly represented.
I think this girl's post was ridiculous (not Alexander. As i was reading it I got the impression that she thought it make men force a girl to have sex and then kill because they saw that as a normal experience through a video game. this video game would never be a child's 'first sexual experience, because before then they are exposed to tv, posters, and a variety of other things before they can play the game. She obviously has not played the game or has the experience to write such an article.
I am a woman and I LIKE GTA. We all indulge in sexist things, whether we realize it or not.
rednightsky86
Excalibur
Posted 3:44 AM 3/6/08
@myDingling: I realize you're not calling for Rockstar to create a game world that somehow abolishes misogyny of all types but I think you're missing the larger point here. Yes, there is misogyny in Liberty City just as there is in the real world but there are also examples of people moving beyond that just as in the real world. However, to focus all of your attention solely upon the misogyny of the game while ignoring the other social ills it represents (often very cogently) is pure and utter foolishness. That is the issue. There are many, many problems in the world and many of them are quite widespread.
Leigh wasn't denying sexism, she was simply saying that focusing upon solely negative representations of women in the game ignores the positive representations. The game world is full of women forced into depravity of one form or another because of social problems but it is also populated (I would argue much more thoroughly) with men forced into similar situations albeit not involving the sex trade.
And furthermore, to blame Rockstar for perpetuating misogyny by featuring it in their social reflection of a game? You might as well accuse a photographer taking a picture of a smog-producing factory of perpetuating pollution. Both are reflections and you seem to be unable to keep yourself from charging at shadows of the problem.
Full disclosure: I'm not ever coming back to this page. Reply all you like but I've chosen ignorance to responses.
Excalibur
MoaM
Posted 3:40 AM 3/6/08
@myDingling:
This guy knows what he's talking about.
MoaM
Shimmergeek
Posted 3:40 AM 3/6/08
"And in real world strip clubs, the women choose to put their flesh on display."
Despite the "clarification" afterwards; this statement was just stupid... Yes *some* women like Dita Von Teese enjoy the art of Burlesque; but I guarantee the vast, vast majority of women in the sex industry are not there out of choice.
(And btw, I agree that calling GTA:IV misogynistic is silly; but making that point was still unbelievably ignorant of the realities of the world)
Shimmergeek
tr1ck
Posted 3:39 AM 3/6/08
Very nice essay. I think the main problem here is that of opinion. We gamers believe that we have every right to slaughter whoever we want on our televisions and monitors, while people who have no idea what that kind of freedom feels like, want to deprive us of those sensations because they find them 'morally unacceptable.' We can't blame them for feeling outrage at what makes us happy, when we have just now done the same thing to them.
tr1ck
MoaM
Posted 3:39 AM 3/6/08
"We're trying to give gamers freedom. It boils down to critics not liking the fact that people can choose to do 'bad' things in a fantasy world - which to me is silly."
This is a joke.
Why even have any sort of combat in the game then?
Or even center the game around cartoon crime?
Dan Houser is silly; from the horse's mouth, an indication of how Rockstar has no ultimate intention beyond killing sprees, killing prostitutes, blowing up cars and general pop-culture machoism.
So, for fuck's sake, can we stop pretending GTA 4 has artistic worth and is therefore worth serious discussion?
No?
Ok.
(I don't know how the italics work on Kotaku, so imagine it if this doesn't workout or forget this sentence if it does work out)
"To call misogyny here is divisive..."
More like accurate and tedious.
If we're going to be honest about how we play GTA4, let's actual be honest about what it is: the game is misogynistic; the game is played by too many idiot children; the game is a social menace, to what extent is completely different discussion; the game has little to do with perpetrating actual crimes/desensitization and general idiocy can certainly stem from GTA; etc. etc.
All this just reflects society, and that's exactly the problem everyone on both sides fail to address.
"Even Samhita admits that violent media is merely a reflection of a violent world. In that respect, GTA IV is merely truthful, an unwillingness to avoid the ugliest aspects of society. Instead of avoiding them, it embraces them, a poignant satire of those truths."
These lines could turn hardcore porn into the Kama Sutra.
...and after all the defense mechanism gamers spout out, after the flames of petty arguments of washed-out TV personalities, delusional lawyers, and half-assed faux-feminists have been spurred:
None of this hooplah is any different from Paris Hilton getting a prison sentence.
This whole article feels invalid; like reading Conservapedia.
The day when there's a steady stream of developers who realise art is a fucking hammer, not some paltry mirror, is the day we can actually defend violent/sexist/racist video-games or scoff at those kinds of remarks.
MoaM
meltyman
Posted 3:38 AM 3/6/08
here's the thing about the ign trailer, i didnt think it was a bad idea, poor taste yeah, but still not a bad idea.
they were using it to exhibit the game and its graphics for their audience, it highlighted some of the many choices available in gta and they have other videos that show other aspects of the game play.
So, for me, to attribute the video as a sign of misogny is sily, but what do i know, i'm a guy so...
anyway, great article, intersting read but one question really, does playing video games give one person legitimacey over another who doesnt when it comes to talking issues with regards to video games? the reason i ask is because i see this argument more and more often when it comes to criticisms of issues relating to video games
meltyman
pasquinelli
Posted 3:38 AM 3/6/08
gta is fun because it gives you an outlet to be brazen. it's like acting out a dead baby joke.
of course, you need to be careful who you share dead baby jokes with, because there are some really wet blankets out there, and they'll get all up their own ass offended by it.
the same applies to gta, but gta is a mass marketed product, and as a result every wet blanket gets all up their own ass offended by it.
btw, feministing reminds me of fisting.
pasquinelli
fuchikoma
Posted 3:36 AM 3/6/08
I also want to add that it's groups like hers that cause things like the British version of Fallout (or Fallout 2?) where because you're free to attack anyone, to prevent violence against women or children, women are turned into talking dogs (nothing demeaning here!) and children are made invisible or removed. All to prevent offending a decency standard that didn't exist where the game was made - damaging a work that happened to find itself in an undervalued medium.
fuchikoma
rateoforange
Posted 3:34 AM 3/6/08
I'm about 80% of the game. The men in the game are no picnic either.
rateoforange
Leigh Alexander
Posted 3:33 AM 3/6/08
@myDingling: Note that I never actually said that the game lacked offensive content. I simply reject the viewpoint that any media should be prevented from depicting things that actually exist just because they're unpleasant, and on the contrary they make very valid tools to explore these things.
Also, I find it a little strange that you believe that as one of the few fulltime female game journalists visible in the majority-male game industry, I have no concept of sexism. I'd simply rather address it by doing my best work, rather than crying about it. Act like a victim and you make yourself one, s'how I feel.
I have no problem calling discrimination where it exists, but a game that shows just as many bloody gunshots to the nuts as it does bitchslaps is not the place to call it. But then, that's only my opinion.
Leigh Alexander
fuchikoma
Posted 3:33 AM 3/6/08
GTA4 like others in the series don't give the choice of killing people or not - unless you count practically not playing it and never seeing 2/3 of the area in the game. That argument illustrates a small point about gunning down civilians or cops but really, you have to be a violent criminal if you want to make any kind of progress.
So is it mysoginist? Well, the females I can think of are America's Next Top Hooker, lampooned overrich celebs on TV, hookers, strippers, stupid one-liner pedestrians and drivers, and girlfriends. Where I'm at the only girlfriend is Michelle who is a bit compulsive but probably the most normal person yet. So the guys are all heroes? No, they're generally hot headed irrational gangsters with drug habits, and such scum that even Niko (described by his cousin as a murdering sociopath) has clear disdain for them in most cases. And the counterparts to the dumb female drivers and pedestrians spitting single canned lines are guys who swear at you, pick fights, and even shoot at you.
So to borrow a descriptor from Roman, it's not a misogynist game, it's a murdering sociopath game... and it is rated accordingly, so there's not really a reasonable critique to be made based on that. Forget comparisons to Saw, just watch a Tarantino movie - better yet, a TV show like The Sopranos - already more gritty and antisocial and totally commonplace! Video games are just a fairly new media culture and as always, outsiders don't get it because they don't try to.
fuchikoma
dd-toronto
Posted 3:31 AM 3/6/08
I haven't played GTA since the first version (not the top-down version, but--you know what I mean), and I think the only time I ever killed 'innocent bystanders' was when I accidentally ran them over...which unfortunately was often, as I can't drive in videogames for sh*t. Maybe I should try this one, though, to see if I've improved.
dd-toronto
Noris
Posted 3:30 AM 3/6/08
After reading the entire piece, I can't help but comment how poorly written this article is.
Noris
ShaggE
Posted 4:16 AM 3/6/08
@ZenGaijin: No, it's just that these "call to arms!" types are that much dumber. They see a battle to be fought in every aspect of life. Unfortunately, that describes a lot of gamers, too. Hence flame wars and the like.
ShaggE
zerojad
Posted 4:15 AM 3/6/08
@invictus2006:
Indeed!
First time i played GTA was just the fun for running around amok with the car AND sometimes fooling around with guns(GTA3 lolz)and the "missions".
zerojad
Omnimon
Posted 4:11 AM 3/6/08
@myDingling: "Rockstar has no responsibility to make such a game, but at the same time, feminists and critical thinkers have a fair right to criticize Rockstar's depictions and the state of society that loves a game that does little in terms of progressivism."
Correct. The problem with most feminists is not in the (what may be seen as absurd) request, it is in the manner in which is approached. Stating that someone is promoting misogyny through the promotion (purchase and play) of popular media that contains non-progressive content on the matter, is like stating that we should arrest everyone that lets their Tamagotchi die, for animal cruelty.
Omnimon
jmuskratt
Posted 4:10 AM 3/6/08
I just started playing and asked myself this last night; why are children not available to slaughter? I mean, there may be some later in the game as NPCs, but there certainly aren't any pedestrians. So brutal violence against adults is "ok," (as in, allowed) but not kids?
I think this demonstrates that R* *is* being selective in the world it portrays, thus weakening it's but-it-happens-in-real-life-and-you-just-make-your-own-choices argument.
For that matter, why are there no female cops?
jmuskratt
ZenGaijin
Posted 4:09 AM 3/6/08
You know this worries me. Though its not in the way that one might understand at first. Why do gamers seem to have a much greater grasp of how the world works?
Are we really that much smarter than everyone else?
ZenGaijin
Aviator
Posted 4:09 AM 3/6/08
I saw that IGN video. Admittedly, it was pretty damn misogynistic.
Aviator
harshakamikaze
Posted 4:08 AM 3/6/08
I don't have anything against feminism, but when it comes from this particular group, its plain BS. They just don't know what the hell they are fighting for and end up pissing a lot of people, including men who are no way close to being misogynists
harshakamikaze
myDingling
Posted 4:03 AM 3/6/08
@Leigh Alexander: I certainly agree that no media should be censored due to violent or "real" content. I also don't believe all media has the responsibility to be progressive and to present these issues in an attempt to make a statement. I didn't think you said otherwise.
What is in question is whether or not GTA and Rockstar have provided a game space that is favorable towards addressing these issues in a progressive manner. That they present violence, sex and drugs is obvious. That they have a right to do so is a foregone conclusion. But that the way they've done it is doing something to help fix the awful situations? I think that's what we're debating here. Rockstar has no responsibility to make such a game, but at the same time, feminists and critical thinkers have a fair right to criticize Rockstar's depictions and the state of society that loves a game that does little in terms of progressivism. No one's calling for content control against issues or for more progressive representations.
And Leigh, I certainly understand that you are dealing in a male-dominated hobby and it must be hard. However, I have two points to make regarding this.
1: "sexism" is not a singular, homogenous issue. It is important to realize how sexism is connected with race and class and sexuality. When we consider these issues in a grander discourse of media representation, we must recognize how everything intersects. In that sense, I would challenge you (Leigh and all other gamers) to explore how your particular experience may not necessarily speak on behalf of a "feminist" perspective. Surely you have dealt with a certain kind of oppression, but to truly understand and make commentary on the greater context of oppression, it is important to understand how all of society's problems are working together to reinfroce themselves.
2: As a child of immigrant parents, I understand the feeling that you don't want to make yourself out to be a victim. It is understandable on a personal level. However, as I mentioned in 1, your personal experience should not be the benchmark for explaining a broader context. And perhaps some really have dealt with so much that, perhaps they have been victimized so much, that it becomes necessary to state that and fix those issues. Sometimes it's not just a matter of working hard and getting through it.
myDingling
Omnimon
Posted 3:57 AM 3/6/08
@KcP: Actually, in practice, this video game does exist in a vacuum; what I do in my home is my business.
As far as controlling the media, the ESRB is in place, as well as several 'watchdog' groups. That pesky First Ammendment that allows you to tell me that I should not participate in a private leisure-time activity in order to further your social agenda, is the same one that allows me to tell you I'll play whatever video game I want for whatever reason I choose.
*I don't even really like the GTA series. Go figure that. I dislike people that try to further their social agendas via any construed, manipulated vision they create.
Omnimon
Tori Floyd
Posted 4:47 AM 3/6/08
Excellent, particularly when you bring to light how it's equally unfair to call the game misogynistic because that would elevate women above men. I've long had a problem with women who demand to be treated "equally", only to expect better treatment than men. The same holds true for other races, religions, and pretty much