Would it be that hard to implement a User Rating system? Hell, Nintendo of all people has it with the Nintendo Channel (recommending games you've played for at least an hour).

Hopanoe

@Rubix42: I'm pretty sure you can buy games with a Silver account...

jslay012

@RonCey: And the most logical solution would be to completely erase some of the games from the Marketplace listing?

Like others have said, put the underperforming games in a "bargain bin" section, or put the games that are doing fine in a "featured" section.

Jeff Paine

@.endejas.:

That's the issue. The game has a Metacritic review average of 17%. If I'm Toyota, I'd be looking at Microsoft and saying, "what are you going to do to ensure us that this game, which we spent lots of money on, doesn't get delisted?" Solution: make it free to download. I think that's shady at best, downright corrupt at worst. Games like Yaris, or any other direct-marketing product, could essentially be given carte blance to suck and still be listed, regardless of review score. Taking the demo to full version download rate out of the equation by making a game free is, in my opinion, a lame way of cheating the system for the sake of a marketing partner.

ChrisInSF

You guys are so hypocritical. Retail stores do it all the time. Hell, most online retailers do it too. When something is underperforming they pull it off. Why should it be any different for XBL? I don't hear half of you whinge as much as you do when EB/Gamestop or whatever refuses to stock your favourite.

excalibre

How about delisting all forms of microtransactions (gamerpics ,etc.)?

RonJeremy4Pres

@BStu: There's a little bit of a difference:
EB Game and Best Buy can only physically carry so many games. It makes sense from a business perspective to remove the games.
Since Microsoft isn't actually removing the underperforming games, they won't save any storage space or anything.

Also (and this is mostly addressing Amazon) there's only so many physical copies of a disc. Once those run out there's not much you can do. With the Marketplace, there's unlimited copies of every game on there. They can never run out of copies of Rez, for instance.

Jeff Paine

This is uber-lame. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

No one benefits by removing a title from the digital storefront. And it's digital distribution on a service we pay $50 a year for.

Realistically, why not just let anyone post games on the service, and separate them into groups so users know if it's MS certified or not. The service isn't better now because I can't easily find frogger, it's just a bigger pain in my rear.

Rubix42

@megaStryke:

The ignorance about this whole "delisting" situation still astounds me.

A bug "up yours" to developers? Are you fucking cereal?

The whole reason they are doing this is because small developers were bitching their game wasn't getting downloaded because it was getting lost in all the shovel ware.

RonCey

I have to say, I don't get the problem. I mean, I can't walk into EB Games and buy a copy of every PS2 game ever made. Or Best Buy. Or Amazon.com for that matter unless you count marketplace. Rotating out underperforming product seems pretty obvious to me.

All the same, if the games are still available to purchase in some fashion, they might as well figure out who to allow that for everyone. Actually, why not create a category: "The D-List" and offer half-price delisted games. Sort of an online clearance sale. They might make some money off the junk yet.

BStu

@exkon:
1. I got it for free
2. I'd rather have the choice to buy it or not than have someone tell me "no, you can't buy the game"

@justhesh:
But they won't be listed on the Marketplace. Nobody would know they exist unless they heard about them online or some other place. The only way you'd get to buy the game is if you had a friend with the game that recommended it to you.

Jeff Paine

My votes are Yaris and Undertow.

I'm still not sure why people are complaining about underperforming titles being removed. It's just like when you try to buy a physical copy of a game. You only have so much time to buy a game, then the time's up.

StupidDufus

I like the idea of having a "Popular XBLA Titles" section.

kojirodensetsu

@ChrisInSF: I think because it was downloaded so much, that Microsoft would have good reason to keep the game up.

.endejas.

@DaveB: seconded

baccardi84

@gils0n: i agree less crap is better. they are saving you money by not letting you by stuff you will never play.

SwindleUK

so is there a list of games that are delisted?

damienchowder

I understand the need to place the consumers needs first, but this whole situation seems to be a big "up yours" to the developers. There are plenty of low-performing games on the service from big developers like Konami (Contra, Super Contra) who won't be affected by this new policy, but what about smaller devs? These devs are the big boys of tomorrow. What message is Microsoft sending them by saying, "Hey! You guys blow, so we're shoving your wares to the roped-off darkened room in the back of the store where no one goes"? That doesn't seem too supportive, does it?

Microsoft should be rewarding strong performances, not punishing weak ones.

megaStryke

@nomadder: I think you're going a little overboard. If Microsoft wants to make the store a little easier on my eyes by removing crap I wouldn't have bought anyway, good for them. I don't really understand your want to grab the torch and pitchfork...

gils0n

My 360 red ringed while I was playing Yaris -- needless to say, I haven't touched the game since then. I'm convinced that my 360 committed suicide due to the quality of the game. It would rather not work than play that turd of a game.

Yaris should be removed. It's a terrible, terrible, game.

Doomstink

@TheHun: Indeed

WarlockSoL

omg Kotaku's front page went all Xbox fanboy on me!

balls187 upside yo head

How about a new one to strike fear in the hearts of shoddy developers everywhere?!?

I played the Warlords demo and it is so awful that it killed all my good memories of the 2600 version. (I know that it is based on the arcade version. It still controls terribly and the "enhanced" graphics are like being stuck in a bad candy-flipping trip.)

jslay012

The conspiracy theorist in me is cranking away and thinking that MS made Yaris free on purpose to automatically make it exempt from de-listing. o_O

ChrisInSF

or...... they could order games based on popularity. They should still show up on the alphabetical listing.

TheHun

Does Microsoft not employ interface designers or something? Put them in their own group with its own link on the XBLA page. They have a link for "Classics", so it's not a system they have to invent for the store. Even better, reduce their prices and call it the Bargain Bin.

I don't understand the logic Msoft is using. It makes no sense.

cronotrigger913

@Jeff Paine: Or you missed the point. He already said they'd still be up for purchase.

justhesh

@Jeff Paine: You feel bad about NOT being able to buy "undertow"?

exkon

Regarding Undertow, it was so-so. It was an ok idea but the actual gameplay was kind of stupid. Most of it amounted to swimming around dodging bullets with the fire key held down.

I kind of wish I wasn't forced to get it as my "free game compensation" for when XBL was acting so crappy though. Much rather have been given a choice to download what I wanted.

WarlockSoL

@DaveB:
Oh, you're so edgy.

Northernsky

@verrius: I completely agree. Why not a "Top Downloaded Titles" page or something, and then hidden in a corner somewhere out of the way, stick an index of all titles on the service.

WarlockSoL

@Sheen_Latrine:

What? I thought Undertow is great.

Theres far worse on the service. I cant believe you would say Undertow before Yaris.

Komrade_Kayce

Seriously, why not make a separate page for these games? I mean you don't see itunes taking off every song off a cd that doesn't sell well. How about letting us buy them from our PC?
Stupid, MS. Stupid.
Looks like everybody's been jumping from the good ship MS for a reason.

nomadder

Penny Arcade game.

DaveB

Actually, I'm really curious about Yaris. Not only is the game free for download, it's also the product of a direct-marketing venture between Microsoft and Toyota. Also, the game is terrible. So, here we've got a terrible game, that's free to download, but also sees Microsoft getting some money from the marketing side as a result. Will that game be delisted or will it be exempt? If it was delisted, wouldn't Toyota throw a fit?

ChrisInSF

The real question is why they're not simply providing an index similar to PSN. While the argument is that they don't want to waste space showcasing all of these underperforming games, it seems nonsensical to simply disallow players to casually browse through the entire directory of games on the service and purchase them, even if they're in a back shelf of sorts. The rationale that they're probably (privately) using is that they're protecting users from purchasing bad games...but historically, removing user choice of games has had mixed results in this industry.

verrius

Don't feel pity for the worst games on XBLA, there is some truely awful sewage on there.

SejalDius

Yaris and Undertow for sure... I can't believe from that whole Xbox Live going down this last Christmas, all we got was a lousy copy of that lousy game.... Thank you Microsoft.

themadman123

@Sheen_Latrine: Unfortunately that was in fact a $39.99 retail title.

Nirolak

We already knew this. If new Xbox 360 users have to rely on recommendations from other users then that's about as user friendly as Nintendo's friend codes.

Barbara

There's like ten I would love to see gone. So much trash to go with the gold...it makes me sad.

Tietsu

Yaris.

SolCross

@megaStryke: For those playing the home game, that would be around the time that a certain station that played games appeared, backed by a company with a far more open software policy.

megaStryke

Also, was Fuzion Frenzy 2 a XBLA game or a retail release? That game was pure garbage at best, but I am leaning towards raw sewage. If it's XBLA, can that before Undertow.

Sheen_Latrine

Apparently he missed the point. Everyone knows that the games won't magically disappear. What people are upset about is that they no longer have the choice to buy these games if they become delisted, unless they manage to find a friend to recommend the game to them.

Jeff Paine

How about none. Strict software regulation to the level that Microsoft seems to be inching towards is what turned third parties off Nintendo when they got sick and tired of the draconian QA policies.

megaStryke

Undertow.

Sheen_Latrine

Why would people want to buy bad and unpopular games anyway? The most common reason would probably be because a friend recommended it or that person wants to play with a friend who has it. In that case, the friend can just send a recommendation.

I was worried before that you wouldn't be able to redownload games you bought but this is not the case..
@Rubix42:
"Realistically, why not just let anyone post games on the service, and separate them into groups so users know if it's MS certified or not. The service isn't better now because I can't easily find frogger, it's just a bigger pain in my rear."

It's on it's way, XNA community games, [kotaku.com]

Harteex

They should just sort the games by metascores and keep them all up. If someone really wants to buy a game that ranks in the bottom 20% of XBLA, then let his tortured soul do so.

Darkest Daze

@Jeff Paine:

YES.

Why do people care that you can no longer buy Root Beer Tapper, TotemBall, or motherfucking Word Puzzle?

Also it takes 6 months for a title to get the 3 month delisted warning.

If you were going to buy any of those piece of shit games, wouldn't you have done it in the 9 fucking months it was out?

RonCey

I don't know why people are getting so worked up over the delisted games. All Microsoft is doing is getting rid of the crap nobody wants anyway. Games have to be 6 months old, have bad reviews, AND very, very poor sales to get delisted.

GoGoGodzilla

@wild homes: And no, I apparently don't know the difference between a vaccine and a cure.

wild homes

I've tried not to buy any game that was reviewed under 7, but I'd say Yaris for sure. Sounds like MS should copy the PSN design after they 1up'ed them. The crappier games should not be listed but delegated to another category such as

'MS Vista Quality Games'
'Unpopular Games'
'Warning: Crap puddles ahead'

Also, MS should have the decency to refund anyone who bought these pieces of turd

Maximus9

Complaining that Microsoft could axe Yaris is like being upset about a cure for herpes.

WHAT? What if later on I WANTED some herpes?

No seriously, dudes. Did you PLAY it?

wild homes

@excalibre: Like I said, both retailers and online stores suffer from a lack of stock (when they run out of a game, they can't very well sell it, can they?) and retailers suffer from the additional burden of a lack of space (if you can only carry 1000 games, wouldn't you carry the best-selling 1000 games?)

Neither of these are things that digital distribution stores have to deal with. (Well, maybe the lack of space, but certainly not in Microsoft's case, especially considering the games will still be on their servers)

Jeff Paine

@RonCey: And what if I don't own an Xbox 360 yet because I want reliable hardware? To me, delisting XBLA games is akin to taking PS2 backwards compatibility out of the cheaper PS3. I might've been willing to buy a $400 PS3 if it could play my PS2 games, like I would be willing to buy a reliable Xbox 360 if it had the XBLA games I want to download, which includes some of those games that will disappear. The two times Nintendo has ever delisted a Wii Shop item, Nintendo had warned that it was going to when they released the game. And even then there was a huge uproar about eventually losing SMB: Lost Levels in Europe! Nintendo doesn't have the most downloadable game surport for nothing, as Nintendo keeps any royalties for WiiWare and VC games low, they separate the VC games out by system and separate the all-new games from the old classic games. Nintendo even showed support in avoiding putting a game of their own up in the US until last week with Dr. Mario Online Rx.

samaine

Seriously, just lower the price. It's not like we're waiting for games to drop in price. We don't know which ones will or not. These games, if they meet said criteria should be dropped.
And I think a lot of games we think will be dropped won't be dropped because until last fall, the 360 couldn't tell the difference between a demo and a full purchase on your gamercard.

KingBroly

@Sheen_Latrine: Undertow's actually fairly good fun if you don't take it too seriously, there's reward in developing some skill with it. The Penny Arcade game is just so bad it's painful to play the demo. I had to quit the game prematurely in case it turned my TV into a portal back to the year 1991. Click on an object, get a "funny" response, click it again, get the same response? Christ, stick to the cartoons for God's sake.

Fistynuts

I can understand maybe wanting to take underperforming titles out of the spotlight, but to completely delist them..eh, that makes me wary.

I can't help but think that this is just the first step in getting people used to the idea of rent and never 'own' software and content. People, even computer geeks, used to look at me like I had three heads when I'd go on about the Palladium initiative from MS and Trusted Computing in general, but that theorycrafting is quickly becoming reality. A reality where you never really 'own' the product you buy (at least when media is concerned) and an overlording third party can instantly 'deny' you access as they see fit.

You'd be a fool to believe that they aren't using this as a test bed to see what users will do when denied access to software that they either own, or in this case..could potentially own.

That doesn't sit well with me, not at all.

Phunk

@RonCey: You've got it a bit upside-down. A lot of those games on the verge of delisting ARE the indie games.

megaStryke

@Fistynuts:There is no hope for you.

Foxstar Sixtail

I'm fine with it as long as they remove all the shit movies from the UK store.

Fabrice

@SolCross:

I don't think they will remove Yaris. Its a free game(advertisement) that was paid for.

CCCombobreaker

I hate to see any game removed from XBLA, but if there were one game I'd like to see removed, it would have to be Totemball, hands down. It's more of a technical demo than game.

Starcade

@nomadder:
And what would be the title for that seperate page:

Games that Suck

Games that Nobody Played

Underselling Games

I don't think anyone who made a game that got delisted would be any happier seeing their game in the reject line.

maniacmayhem

Cynically, I believe this is part of the package with them getting a bigger cut of XBLA developers revenue. Part of their rationale to developers might be that with all the junk cleared out their (theoretically) AAA title will have a better chance to shine.

the-hypnotoad

@excalibre:
Perhaps its because we understand the necessity of such action with brick and mortar stores as much as we may not like it. Space is limited.
When it comes to digital distribution the parameters are different. While there may be a need, in digital distribution, to "make space" for newer product there is no longer a need to eliminate the old product in order to do so. Simple reorganization will suffice.
The situations are clearly different enough so that one may grudgingly accept the necessity of one, while decrying the practice of the other without being called a "hypocrite".

nomadder

@gils0n:
If you didn't get it from my itunes analogy then what else can I say? I'm sure YOU wouldn't mind if they removed crap that YOU wouldn't buy, but I'm trying to look at the bigger picture. Some people play games that the majority of others don't like. Loss of consumer choice, not just choices YOU will never make, is always a bad thing.
You may not be losing a damn thing. Great for you. The community however IS losing something.

@maniacmayhem:
That's why MS has a marketing department.
How about the XBL Back Catalogue?
Or simply "The Archives"?
You could remove the review score qualifier as well so there wouldn't be the stigma of it being the dung heap. Just older games that don't sell as well anymore. Or why not just try lowering the prices as an alternative to elimination? You lower the price and the quantity demanded goes up. MS still makes money and the consumer still has choice. I don't see the problem with that.

nomadder

Why do so many people say Undertow? The two requirements for games to be delisted are under a 65% average, and low sales. Undertow averages an 83% and won awards, so it won't be delisted, sorry.

Ryan Saotome

For Sale: Cyberball XBOX Live Friend Recommendation - $39.00

opt2not

"The reality is we're not removing any games from the service, if you will. They'll always be there for purchase. Think about a book on Amazon. It's not always going to be featured on the front page of the store."

True. But Amazon has a search feature and a decently-organized storefront system.

Jazhuis

People: To be delisted from Xbox live, you have to simultaneously have an under 65% Metacritic rating AND be older than 6 months AND have less than a 6% conversion rate from demo to full.

This doesn't even effect low-selling games. This may effect games where nearly everyone who tries the game decides not to buy it (but only if their scores are low enough). If a game isn't tried very often, but the few people who do find the demo buy it, the game won't be delisted. Also, games that get better than really crappy reviews won't be delisted. And, of course, games have a six month window to prove themselves on the system before being in danger of delisting, after which point most of them will have sold what they're going to sell anyway.

To be delisted, you have to simultaneously get terrible reviews and turn off people who play the game. So Ikaruga is in no risk of being delisted no matter how poorly they sell. Root Beer Tapper might, with a score of 61, but it probably converts enough people that it will be fine. Rocky and Bullwinkle might survive on high enough sales, though we can hope not. With a low rating a no sales, Screwjumper is in trouble, as well it should be.

I'm glad to see this move. Xbox Live Arcade has been a bit of a sewer of flushware for a long time. While I'd be sad to see some of the old arcade titles at risk of delisting, it would definitely be worth it to encourage more original titles that weren't just phoned in. Maybe then we'd get the multiplayer Mr Driller that we all deserved.

All console companies police their platforms for some degree of quality. This is a good thing.

seishino

So.. you can still download the game if a friend recommends it or if you had it downloaded before. The weird thing is that I would think this ment that it's still ON their servers if it's still possible to get it and that they are losing money off not listing it. I mean even if you download it your probably losing some bandwith but then you know the logical thing is to say it's not much and that they easily make it back up with how much you paid for the game. It's just stupid I don't see why they would remove games from being bought but keep them on the server.

PrincessAyu

Shuffling them off to a graveyard is fine - but keep some way (even if its a pain) to get to them.

Even if we werent discussing games being taken off there, they need to improve their listings system for games and video downloads, its just so slow and old-fashioned. Make it faster, stop the user having to go forward/backward so many times, add a keyword search, or even add a "smaller font" option for those of us with bigger HD TVs so we can see more titles at once.

Though I wonder how low a sales figure we are talking about for these games? Single digits per month?

masonreloaded

how bout they just make the fucking menus easier to navigate? Then we could have as many games as we want like with Wii...

GOLD5

"With a low rating a no sales, Screwjumper is in trouble, as well it should be."
@seishino:
I think everyone can agree with that!

" I don't see why they would remove games from being bought but keep them on the server."
@PrincessAyu:
Easy. To benefit newer users and newer games.

Downloading and trying out crapware takes time. If a user goes through the XBLA library only to encounter crap game after crap game, that's just a waste of time for the user. This might turn users off XBLA as a whole.

The situation for developers is similar. The crap games might turn users away from XBLA, leading to zero sales for you. Also, there's less competition as a whole, increasing chances that users will try your game.

For the delisted games developers. They, along with Microsoft, know how poorly their games sold and can predict how much more will sell. We haven't heard any outcry from them, have we? Hey Kotaku, can you ask some of the possibly affected devs/publishers?

kftgr