Does anybody know how the developers behind games like Everyday Shooter go about making their game? I can't imagine they threw down the $20K for a real dev kit.

fulgore66

Well the might be able to find a nice used PS3 Dev kit...... for $10k. It's great that they are giving them the oportunity to learn on actual hardware, but when it comes to going from the PS2 to PS3 that's like comparing apples to Orangutangs.

GameBreaker

PS2... They should be training programmers how to program for PPC and for Cell, not how to use the damned PS2...

Sony is reminding me of my mom... I ask for yogurt, so she gets me the exact types I hate that she's known I've hated since I've started eating yogurt...

Start teaching Cell processor at schools, Sony! Come on! It shouldn't be that hard to figure out (that you should teach it, not Cell itself)

bobtheduck

@Aex: TBH the limitations of PS2 hardware would be really affect what the class can cover and would leave students with outdated training. Newer lighting techniques and engines would have to be left out. To be honest, I don't think any game development class should teach using anything other than UE3 because of how well-documented, accessible, and up-to-date it is. Seems that most game programmers will end up working with scripting rather than low-level hardware stuff anyway.

Toasticus

Even if you gave them a PS3 development unit, that would be out of date in a few short years anyway. I think the point of this is to get students familiarized with game programming in general, not necessarily how to program for a PS2 or a PSP.

evslin

@Manny: You learn LISP but who used LISP aside form EMACS? You learn prologue but what was the last useful thing made in prologue? The main difference between Computer science vs Trade school programing training is that the Comp Sci classes teach you theory while trade school type training teaches you how to be a useful IT programming minion. Comp sci Bsc's may make mediocre code monkeys but IT diploma minions are rarely Comp Sci innovators.

they may teach PS2 programming for many reasons like introduction to multi-processor programming, low level coding, or game programing. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't fire the professors for doing so.

kingmanic

@Toasticus: Around $10k now mate, maybe a bit less

NecronomiconUK

@Toasticus:

Damn, didn't know it was "that" much. Ah well..

LittleBigPlaneteer

@Manny: Personally, i'm of the opinion that anyone who thinks that 'studying programming' at uni is missing the point considerably. If you want to code then you study maths, big style. Most maths courses these days involve certain areas of programming and the fundamental mathematical princibles learnt on a maths degree are FAR more transferable than doing a course where the basis is C++ or whatever.

NecronomiconUK

@Manny: What? I doubt any college will teach a class "How to Program for the PS2". Most likely it will be a general Game Design, Computer Graphics, or any other type of course, using the Dev Kit as a tool to practice theory on. It is no different from using Java/C++ & OpenGL as your tool to make games for the PC in the sense of teaching. The big letters on the side point to what it is :p

Aex

@LittleBigPlaneteer: PS3 devkits run around $20,000 IIRC. I can ask some people around the office here if you want a hard number.

Toasticus

I'm a Computer Science Mayor and even though my geek brain was happy to see this, then reality settle in. yes, It would be cool to take a semester (or in my case 3 months) of learning how to program for Sony Ent. but at the end XNA, PC and DS are easier to do and more accessible for students. Trying to get a teacher to take a look at this program and offer it on campus is just difficult. I can barely get him to email me back over important stuff from my class.

Good move on Sony's part, just not good enough, from a students point of view. *Pats Sony's back and sends him back to the Drawing board*

Xalaga

@LittleBigPlaneteer: PS3 are already 1/2 of a dev kit. Slap Ubuntu on a PS3 and you have a Cell devkit. Many linux hobbiests have already done stuff like recode parts of mplayer to use SPU's to deliver good HD video. Academics use PS3's as an inexpensive demo for IBM's larger cell servers(Mercury) or as a full on floating point processing monster for things like protein folding. Once they unlock the hypervisor you'll have a complete kit. I hear there is even a group trying to optimize GCC for the Cell. That would be spectacular, opening up the entire linux software library to the PS3 at native speeds.

kingmanic

What a waste of time. You spend years learning about a piece of hardware that goes out of date in 5 years.

Anyone who teaches this compared to more generic programming classes should be fired.

Manny

@NecronomiconUK:

I'm sure if all the students put in money for a PS3 dev kit, a class could afford one :P

They don't actually need to each own one. If the class teaches them all about the PS3 hardware, with some hands-on, they'll be able to learn a great deal about it.

LittleBigPlaneteer

@Arcticfox400: Also, developers developing around PC based architectures are typically the ones who've been pumping out very lack-lustre PS3 ports. The PS3 is a very different environment with regards to memory and cpu allocation and it requires a specific level of thought to get the best out of it. When you go from PC/360 --> PS3 bad shit happens when you have to try and re-jig how your code deals with the (theoretical) limited amount of gfx memory.

NecronomiconUK

I'm not sure how this is helpful. The PS2 architecture is as different from PC/360 architecture as it is from PS3 architecture, isn't it?

Toasticus

@Arcticfox400: mistake i meant CrossfireX

Arcticfox400

Fishing them while theyre young, eh, Sony? Good stuff!

Shiryu

@Arcticfox400: Early 360 dev kits were a frankenstien of multi cpu/gfx Apple Macs, but the final 360 dev kits are just regular 360s with a module on the side/top to connect to the host PC for debugging and testing.

NecronomiconUK

I know the PS3 is the hot thing for Sony now but... it makes more sense to me to give them PS3 dev kits to work on. Even with the whole security thing attached.

Nickatiah

you develop for pc architecture and tweak no matter what tweak constitutes and dumb down for consoles, those 360 dev kits from Microsoft Game Studios are using quadcores and Sli enabled graphics cards so there is definetly some dumbing down going on there.

Arcticfox400

@LittleBigPlaneteer: You have any idea how expensive they are? Jesus...
Not to mention them being unreliable betamax alike slabs of dust collecting ickyness.

NecronomiconUK

@LittleBigPlaneteer: Not a chance rofl :p Giving college kids internal access to something where security is still important (PS3)... You are just asking to have your machine hacked into oblivion :p

Sony is thinking, "It's alright, the PSP has been hacked to kingdom come already, and the PS2 is old."

Aex

makes me want to change majors

SofaKingHI

Indeed a good idea, and hopefully will promote both development of skills needed to break into the industry and more widespread knowledge of the Playstation architecture.

However, it's also a cleverly-disguised plan to offload all the old devkits that Sony aren't using any more, but can't recycle or just throw away as they contain too many toxic chemicals to legally landfill. Seriously - go look up that report on hardware manufacturer's environmental issues I remember seeing a while back...

NiceMissMayonnaise

PS2...

Looking forward to people pushing the PS3 hardware when PS4 is a year in.

Black-Dog-Howls

That's right sony... take them from the roots... you are learning well...

suya123

That's nice and all, but how about PS3 dev kits too?

LittleBigPlaneteer

crazy maybe they should send a few to ea sports division.

lilaliendog

This is a good idea, and will hopefully lead to less delays like what just happened with the Playstation port of Red Alert 3

DugDawg

tool is right, everyone knows the new dev kits are g5 mac pros.

Arcticfox400

My new goal in life is to get a PS2 with "TOOL" emblazoned on the side.

Actually, that sounds like a cool idea. I'd enroll in that.

ShaggE

Sheee-at, this is for amateurs.

PIC dev kits or bust.

balls187 upside yo head

@NecronomiconUK: i used to think that too, now i know way more math then i know what to do with...

pasquinelli

@fulgore66:

He worked as a programmer, and likely made the game initially on a PC. He then showed it up at the Independent Games Festival and Sony picked it up. That's at least the gist of it, from this interview: [www.gamespot.com]

LittleBigPlaneteer

@Manny: i had a class programming on the gba in school, and it was a valuable experience that has help me in my career.

you're clearly talking out of your ass. next time just don't comment.

pasquinelli

@Xalaga: That's a sweet role, Mr. Mayor.

I have to agree with you though that the XNA and PC are a great place to get started, as well as DS. (PAlib has been good for me up to a certain point - memory leaks!)

tkshredder

@Aex: So how does that benefit from using a PS2 as opposed to just doing it on PC?

Toasticus

@Toasticus: First of all, it doesn't matter what the limitations are for learning about game and render loops. Sure you can't use newer lighting techniques but classes in game design shouldn't be teaching indepth lighting procedures. Those should be left up to computer graphics classes, and only advanced ones at that.

I think using an engine would really leave out a lot of important lower level information you could teach using this tool. You'd be teaching a class on how to write for an engine, not game design. Students need to learn the basics of game loops, render loops, collisions, etc. etc. They need to learn how to build a basic engine, not use one that is popular in the moment.

Aex

@Tiber: Rofl, I forgot to touch your other point. No matter how strong your OS is, if someone has insider access to your hardware, eventually it'll be broken, and piracy is inevitable from that. Take the PSP for example, every attempt they make to lock it down is foiled because the hackers already have full access to the hardware.

This is why so many companies see much more success in certain consoles than on the PC now a days. Look at the software success of various platforms that are easy to pirate with (DC, PSP, for e.g.) and compare them to those that aren't (Hardware mods required).

Aex

@Tiber: You make a good point :) A little exposure in both is probably a good idea, but you only have so much you can do in 14-16 weeks :p I don't know if it would be practical, and if you had to cut one, I'd say cut the Engine.

You and Toast are right, Some exposure to a pre-existing engine would probably be beneficial.

Aex

@Aex: Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that XNA is super great or anything. I have played around with XNA and had the same feeling as you.

I really wish they would both focus on opening up home-brew to hobbiests that can't put money into a project and would be happy to let their creations loose for free.

fulgore66

@Aex: "They need to learn how to build a basic engine, not use one that is popular in the moment."

They ideally should do both. Spending a little time learning how to work with an existing product is good practice, since part of coding is learning to work with constraints due to other people's code.

Anyway, I don't get why companies think they have to keep their system so closed. If you're worried about people hacking your OS, make a better OS. If they're determined they'll find the vulnerability on their own anyway. There are countless companies out there that can prove that companies can be successful without keeping everything secret. They're already making baby steps towards this with XNA and WiiWare anyway. They should be pushing their dev kits out and getting as many people to learn it as possible. I don't see why anybody would consider a larger pool of developers able to make games that you can profit from as a downside.

Tiber

@fulgore66: Does Sony need an answer to XNA? The last time I was curious in XNA I found it troublesome that most anything you did on it would cost you to play with...

Besides Aegis Wing, and some fun programming contests, has XNA produced anything that calls for Sony, or anyone in that case, to compete with it?

Aex

@pasquinelli: It's harsh but true, i graduated with a BSc (hons) in Software Development (Games), loads of C++ and OpenGL stuff. Most games companies aren't intrested because the fact is that computing graduates just aren't desirable to the games industry as most knowledge is far too language specific and nowhere near hardcore enough for their needs.

I gave up on the idea of working in the games Industry because a) i wasn't smart enough for the maths b) I adore playing games and my friends who actually work in the biz now are the most bitter cynical people there is. Most would rather eat their arms off than play games in their spare time.

I now work in software development for a smallish desktop applications company and loving it. 9-5 hours, relaxed atmosphere, decent wage and get to chill out playing games in the evening

NecronomiconUK

@LittleBigPlaneteer: Interesting. I wonder if that means that Sony got it up and running on the PS3 for him.

I wonder if Sony will ever have an answer to XNA.

fulgore66

@Toasticus: Well, besides the cool factor and possibly increasing student's interest in the subject and the whole "Hey Mom/GF/Friend class was really cool we got to play with PS2/PSP Dev kits" and perhaps actually having some experience with a dev kit... Nothing :p

Aex

@pasquinelli: you must have very special skills to know what someone else knows or doesn´t that quickly.
And in case you missed it i said this thing here can be useful for trying some stuff on lower end more limited hardware setups.

tomsamson

"Regarding this "devkit" i agree with those saying it is of very limited use.
For actual game development training it would make more sense to develop on a pc or mac."

you just don't get it. a console is not just a cheap ass pc in a fancy form factor. to develop on a console requires a lot of research and, if you documentation isn't completely clear or complete (it won't be), it requires experimentation. it's a totally different experience.

you think memory management in c on a windows pc and not leaking or crashing is tricky, try working on a console with no os, where code doesn't crash, and memory is more precious then water in the desert.

i'm not saying the majority of training should be on embedded systems, but it fosters important skills for game developers.

pasquinelli

@Gjerven: Thanks. That was a fascinating article. So I'm guessing the let him borrow a dev kit? The article really didn't get into the details.

fulgore66

@Aex: yeah, the xna games recently released as short time trial demos were partially pretty nice, like the dishwasher, i wouldn´t wonder if some of these are made available as commercial games later this year.
Next up later this year MS will also introduce the XNA community features sides which will allow usual Xbox 360 owners to play XNA games, so yeah,there´s some nice things coming up.
Regarding this "devkit" i agree with those saying it is of very limited use.
For actual game development training it would make more sense to develop on a pc or mac. This thing here can be useful for trying some stuff on lower end more limited hardware setups, but yeah, then that´s pretty much about it,as others said it lacks lots of functionality of more current gen systems, especially when one keeps in mind its about teaching newbies,so once they´re done with their courses and get into a job somewhere there will probably be no ps2 or psp anymore and if they really want a coder position in one of the bigger studios,then yeah,its preferable they are used to the then more current gen stuff. One or two semesters with this could be ok,then again there are other things that could be more benefitial.

tomsamson

@fulgore66: Nope, he got it up and running himself after a few days (without sleep), and Sony helped him with "hooking me up with useful resources like documents, sample code, and answering whatever questions I had." [blog.newsweek.com]

Gjerven

How totally useless.

It makes sense when MSoft does it because it's PC capable. Familiarity with the PS2's structure is a completely useless skill to have.

Moonshadow101

@Aex: No matter how strong your OS is, there's a 99.9 (repeating)% chance that it has a vulnerability, period. The only thing that changes is if there's more than one, how hard it is to discover, and how hard it is to take advantage of. I think the PSP has proven that trying to keep the system closed is a losing proposition.

My point is, people will find a way to pirate no matter what. Address it is best you can, but in the end, but why hold yourself back because of something that will happen no matter what you do?

Tiber

@pasquinelli: cool :)

@fuchikoma: well,if you use commercial middleware like unreal or go for an indy route with XNA then you won´t have to deal with manual ram allocation that much. If you instead code your own stuff on closest to the hardware low level then yeah, such knowledge is invaluable.

tomsamson

@tomsamson: yeah, i heard you.

pasquinelli

Very much want.
I had a lot of fun playing with GBA dev - it's like night and day to a modern PC, doing most things by writing to the right RAM address. I wonder how removed it is on consoles now...

fuchikoma

@Moonshadow101: I'm sure all those developers still working on titles for any number of the 120 odd million PS2s that are in the world would disagree.

Any experience working on hardware different to the standard PC development environment can be useful. Programing fundamentals is never a useless skill to have.

NecronomiconUK

@Accordion: How many commercial games came out of Sony´s movement back then? And yup,the net yarouze was still quite expensive compared to a 99 bucks a year membership for testing your games on the 360.
Don´t get me wrong, back then i liked Sony´s movement a lot and hoped they would propperly support it and it would flourish,it just didn´t that well.
Also the development with Flash type homebrew games is not a backwards one at all, you´re quite off there.
With flash and other similar technologies indies can create games with relatively affordable software and less low level coding knowledge required and yes, then either release them for free for having em playable by anyone with a web connection instantly or well,sell em to a portal or as download game or mobile game or whatever other way they choose.
So yeah, for some years now indies can easily create games and publish em, make money with em if they like etc. in more and more approachable ways.
Since more and more people realize and do that of course the console manufacturers can´t fall behind, essentially every flash developer could instead be developing for their platform and then earn money there and make the console company earn money instead of grabbing away potential customers with their free to play casual games.
So yeah,that´s why these more opening up movements again now.

tomsamson

@Tiber: Well, that topic is far to broad to address over a small forum like this :p It is basically a deterrence mechanism. Sure things will be cracked eventually, but by making it not easy, it deters people from doing it.

Take for example speeding on the freeway, Sure people are going to exceed 65mph, but that doesn't mean we should remove the limit. In this case, it is easy to exceed the speed limit but there is a fine if you are caught. Since there is no fine for cracking hardware, they use making it harder to crack as a deterring method.

Aex

@fulgore66:
"I wonder if Sony will ever have an answer to XNA"

??

Dont remember the NetYaroze then? Or PS2 Linux Dev Kit ?

Latest issue of EDGE has a great article/interview with some Yaroze folks. The current mass of flash type homebrew games makes me feel as if the home dev has worked backwards.

Accordion

Well, seems like Sony's reign from first to third taught them some things. They probably took for granted that they will crush the competition with PS3 without doing anything, but it proved them wrong. Now, they have to generate interest in their products and the best way to do is to plant those seeds now and hope for the better later

mcool93

@tomsamson:

I meant games built with XNA or similar that dont push any boundaries, and restrict themselves to "flash" game appearances.

The price of entry is usually a feature for sorting out the chaff.

Accordion

PS2? Really?

Really? PS2?

i mean, cmmmoooooooonnnn

Really?

string_theory

Ow. I heard that XNA subscriptions are part of some MSDNAA licenses now, which makes it even cheaper.

Shin-san

@Accordion: Saying the price of entry is usually a feature for sorting out the chaff is highly arrogant and plain off.
It would mean anyone using unreal engine 3 creates wicked stuff and every indy who has no money for such things creates utter crap (which you´d know is nonsense if you checked out IGF finalists´games).
Regarding XNA it has the raw power and functionality to do quite nice things with it, things far beyond flash limits regarding the tech side (and this comes from someone who also has worked with flash since V3), its just the tools aren´t that advanced yet and overall people have to get into it and start developing their custom engines using it before one can see more more complex games made with it.

tomsamson

Seems reasonable to learn how to program on technology that is already horribly dated.

MSUSteve

Will this really help with the Cell? I mean, nobody complains (any more) about developing for the PS2/PSP.

What they need is to get Cell chips out there in devices so that there is some use outside programming for the PS3.

I've read articles saying these devices are "on their way". But a lot of stuff from Sony could be described that way.

BoringJob