@Keanu: Like you can not see for the box that its is a crappy game.

Ett

@Keanu: Like I said, that response was meant for fox and not yourself. However, I have the sense to not want to buy imagine Babies without having to pirate it to try it. It's called common sense. something that's funnily enough, commonly lacked...

Al3xandr0s

@djack: and do they (Wii) have the majority of the games that are avalible online that you can get with downloading?

Think about it like this, when you download a demo and shut it off, the game is erased from the NDS, when a person downloads a game for their device they can choose to delete it from their cart. Now if the game company they pirated from had easy access to their demos, I would think people would enoy it.

Keanu

@djack: but like I said, do these slot-1 device users have access to a Wii to play these demos? I'm sure they don't.

Keanu

Oh, and didn't we have the ruling where the guy who was doing xbox mod-chips got acquitted recently? There is little functional difference between those modchips and the R4 (or my Cyclo ;) )

djack

@hefferj05: So true.

Keanu

@Keanu: The DS demos fro Wii thing is available in the UK, so I presume that it has been available for three years in the US, Antarctica and on Mars.

djack

I use mine to play Monkey Island and the rest of the scummvm library!

TyrannosaurusRox

@Al3xandr0s: Bad wording I guess. =/

ƒox

Perhaps the British Industry Group should turn its attention to the real 'cancer' in the industry, GAME and other shops and their 2nd hand game reselling exploits. At least these policies are easily accessible to the mass market, unlike R4 carts.

hefferj05

@Ketch2k8: I get you. It's good that you aren't on of the delusional idiots who feels piracy is legitimate form of consumer advocacy. Hell, I'll say it right now, I have pirated games as well. I make no excuses for it; what I do is wrong and harms the industry. I'm just glad that there are enough "suckers" paying for games that my leeching doesn't slow the industry down.

Darth Navster

i had one, used it for playing chrono trigger while on the move (i own it for Snes) but my DS broke, so it's now used as a mp3 player. :(

Balmut

@Al3xandr0s: I never used that mantra. Like I said, I rarely spend more than an hour before I can decide whether or not I like the game. There are a lot of DS games out there and very few even hold my attention for any longer than that. If they do I would consider it worth owning.

ƒox

Are we forgetting that Mr. Modchips recently one an appeal for his conviction and £1 million fine?

The appeal found that he had in fact not circumvented copyright protection.

This is ELSPA reminding people that they could take you to court for copyright infringement, but then they'd have to prove it happened. Especially now that a precedent has been made.

Now that even Amazon sells R4 (however authentic), smaller chip retailers don't really have much to worry about.

justlikebuck

@Al3xandr0s: Enjoy your Imagine Babies purchase then.

Keanu

Argh too many people replying @ the same time. I give up :P

Al3xandr0s

The above is @ fox.

Al3xandr0s

@Centy: Dude, there is no way a majority of people who buy the R4 buy it strictly for homebrew. I'm not saying some or even a lot don't, but the R4 is used for pirating.

Okay, so pirating may not be a "cancer" to the industry, since I don't believe the industry will die from it - what's a more comparable disease? Gangrene? Scurvy? I don't care what label you wanna put on it - piracy is NOT GOOD.

I'm not going to argue that every pirated game is a game that would've been bought at retail, but the money lost on the games people would buy normally is money being taken away from the game companies who are trying to grow bigger and make better games - in short, it's stunting the growth of the industry we claim to love.

But I suppose you can say whatever you want to believe about it not being an issue. There's simply no way of knowing how different the industry would be without it, but I'm willing to bet bigger, better, and fuller.

phinehas

Well your last post sounds much more sensible than the previous one, I'm fine if you do as above, but not fine with the vibe I get from your other comment.

Al3xandr0s

@Darth Navster: Don't get me wrong, I don't pirate games because I think they're shite, I pirate games because its free. I do it because I don't have to go out and buy it and I don't have to put it in my DS and find that I've but something craptastic, I can simply delete it, nothing lost (for me). I feel sorry for anyone who bought speed racer on DS, I'm certainly glad I pirated it. I'm more likely to try games if I didn't pay £30 for them.

Ketch2k8

@ƒox: Games are meant to provide entertainment, I'm sure you don't force yourself through unbearably horrible games you pirated so if you actually play something (as in, more than once, to check it out) you should purchase it, not hide under "I'm not entertained enough to buy, just entertained enough to play" lame excuses.

Al3xandr0s

@Darth Navster: I might spend an hour on or so on said game, then it's deleted. If I like it (FFXII: Revenant Wings, FF Tactics A2, Maro Kart, New Super Mario, Zelda PH, Advance Wars, Phoenix Wright 1, 2 & 3, etc...) I go out and buy it.

ƒox

@Darth Navster: You don't really run into many kiosk's with every game for you to try at a game store and reviews of games are not reliable cause that's one persons view and not your own. The Wii is trying something with the DS and demo downloads but seriously, does the majority DS owners own a Wii for this (not released outside of Japan) feature?

Keanu

I'm not going to lie, I own one, but I still buy the games I really like. Is there any harm done if I weren't actually going to buy those games in the first place? In fact, if I find that I really enjoy a game I never thought I'd like and I pick it up... yes, I am trying to justify my pirating ways. But if anyone thinks I'm wrong let me know.

ƒox

Anyone read the comments on that MCV article? Those people haaaate the R4!

I love the fact that I can play with Pocket Physics, ProteinDS, and Tickle Girl
(oops... shouldn't have admitted that last one...)

vr0oM

@Ketch2k8: I always find the "if a game/movie/cd sucks, I'll pirate it" to be bullshit. If you are willing to take some time out of your day to play a game, it clearly does not suck, or rather it does not suck enough for you to not pay for it. Basically, this argument boils down to the fact that people can't accept that they are doing the wrong thing simply because it is easier and cheaper than doing the right thing. I don't care if people pirate, but don't hide behind consumer indignation to justify it.

Darth Navster

@phinehas:

Thats a load of crap. Quite frankly comparing piracy to cancer just goes to demonstrate how little you understand about either pircay or cancer.

Piracy killing the games industry is something PC gamer have been having to listen to from disgruntled developers for years now. If pircay was killing the industry then surely it would be nearing death but yeah on year it's becoming a bigger business. Just the other day on Kotaku Bioware said the best way to avoid having your game pirated is to make it worth handing over money for. Blizzard, Activion, Valve all their sucess stories just make people like Crytek sound like crying babies demanding attention.

The R4 and all other homebrew devices are a great piece of kit I own half a dozen different ones I also own nearly 80 DS games though I always play games through my devices I also buy the games I fee lare worth handing over money for. At the end of the day companies bleating on about piracy doing anything are just calling attention to the fact that generally they make games people don't want to pay for.

The idea they are copyright infringing is ridiculous. Sure they CAN be used to play pirated games but alot of people use it to take advantage of the many amazing homebrew games and programs avalible. As has been said in other comments they don't ban everything just because it CAN be used to commit a crime if so I think we'd all have to give up our kitchen knives, PC's, Scanner, photocopiers, video camera's,DVD recorders I mean seriously where will it end.

Centy

You're lucky enough to get MVS working on a R4/M3 let alone CPS/2

Keanu

@Ketch2k8: How do you know it's mediocre before you pirate it?

slomo788

The homebrew is quite nice and the music player is alright too, but most people buy it for the piracy. You can play games from any region and save a lot of money.

Plus, the card itself costs less than most DS games.

ariete

@Keanu: I mean the cartridge so I can run a ROM of Street Fighter or other old arcade games.

DukeOfPwn

Are blank CDs and DVDs illegal there?

slomo788

@DukeOfPwn: Silly man, there is no SF on the DS... but there is Mortal Kombat (if you're into that)

Keanu

Oh- and people making jokes about "are they going to ban X now? you can do Y with X." R4 is an easily identifiable peice of hardware that is easy to monitor because it is sold in small quantities to a small amount of people. X, the thing you are refering to, everyone owns, and therefore would be impossible to regulate current use of/sales of. See a parallel? I don't. Stop trying to compare them.

denki

Wait, will this let you play Street Fighter on your DS? If so, I'm sold! Where's a reliable place to find this?

DukeOfPwn

Glad I don't live in the UK. Really though, the device itself is harmless by itself and if used "right" can just be used for homebrew and demo games. (yes you can play kiosk demos that you see in game stores)

Think about it though, how long has the R4 been out and they're finally "investigating" it?

Retailers won't buy R4's then ok? Then they will move onto the M3's. It won't end really. People are going to get their hands on it even if they decide not to sell in a store. Peolpe will end up buying it online and importing it from other countries if they can't get it in theirs.

Keanu

Well, this shocking news will surely affect a sliver of a sliver of a sliver of the DS's total audience.

StocDred

@Herodito: You've obviously been paying attention to the news, as that law is about half a hair from getting passed. Go Go UK.

Lu-Tze

I personally use an DSTT, a better version of the R4 basicly. I use it for ebooks and emulating NES, SNES, Mega Drive (or Genesis) and whatever else I can pack on.

I can also say I use mine to play DS roms too. I personally feel a lot better about not paying for some of the trash that is released on DS. I can't remember the last time a good game come out for it. When I pirate a game on DS, the only thing that springs to mind is "Phew, glad I didn't waste my hard earned cash on that crap"

I do buy DS games, but I'm not paying £35 for a mediocre game, and if thats how much they're going to charge me, I'll pirate it.

Ketch2k8

"Are you going to monitor knifes now?"

The UK already does. It's illegal to sell knives to anyone under 16, it's illegal to sell flick knives at all, and it's illegal to carry a 3 inch or longer blade in public.

cdammers

If it weren't for R4 or its cousins (EzV, whatever else is out there) I don't think I'd own my DS anymore. When I got it, I thought it'd be all cool, seeing as how I could play games with all the other people out there- until I realized the games are easier than breathing and the joy quickly fades. It's all about emulation now.

denki

Are you going to monitor knifes now? I could cut you with one of those bad boys.

Herodito

Game pirating is a cancer to this industry, plain and simple.

phinehas

When I worked at Gamestation a guy once came in and asked if we sold R4 carts. I just stared at him in silence for ages and (admittedly being a bit of a jerk) simply asked, "What do you think?"

Always prided myself on being friendly to customers, but that question was just so ridiculous that I refused to dignify it with a "no, sorry!". We'd sometimes get people asking if they could trade their PSP in for one with a specific firmware so they could pirate games too, which met with the same answer (I realise you can downgrade the firmware etc but guess these weren't experts).

Kazzahdrane

Are they going to ban cassettes so I can't pirate my speccy games as well.

It ain't going to stop it. eBay is your friend.

cocomo

A computer's hard drive can be used to store pirated media, they should monitor those as well.

TrjnRabbit

I kind of use my R4 to check out a game before I buy it. That and of course my homebrew stuff. If I like a game enough I will buy it.

JustJake

Customizing your own DS wallpaper = win.

Para

@Lu-Tze: Yes because Blizzard did bad before WoW, it's not like they made bazillions of dollars with their other games, which in turn enabled the development of WoW itself through the years it took...

And yes, Steam is decent @ antipiracy but you will find people still are able to make pirate servers of all of the Valve multi player games and play on them without Steam with pirated versions of the games. And yet, enough people prefer paying to keep getting Valve games.

As for console games, they're pirated as much as PC, it's not as measurable because it happens in various other ways more than digital downloads (though that happens also, all torrent sites host console games torrents as well). Heck in certain countreis all you see is pirated copies in every store...

Here's another example company, Stardock. Keeps growing and growing without any copy protection measures. So, we have three big boys, and 1 indepdent boy that's slowly turning into a big boy, but people want more examples?

Al3xandr0s

@taidan19: Then those people with those devices can dump their own games and pirate like that, brilliant!

@Billkwando: You own a neogeo arcade cabinet? :P

Now if you own a neogeo console then I'll shut up.

Keanu

One other thing about Neo DS. I find it practically miraculous that I'm playing Neo Geo games on the DS when a few months ago I'd have been ecstatic to have a Neo Geo POCKET emulator. I'll probably never play my real Neo Geo Pocket ever again ('cept for maybe nostalgia)

@taidan19: Can you rent DS games from Gamefly? If so, that's technically really no better than piracy, because the game company makes no money from it.

That is, unless Gamefly has some kind of arrangement with them where they get royalties for each rental, but somehow I doubt it.

I mean, when you get down to it, borrowing a game from a friend could be considered "no better than piracy".

Billkwando

I think it just goes to show the direction people want to move in but the industry doesn't.

Look at iTunes etc. they took what people were doing, downloading songs off the net, and added value to it. Steam is doing pretty well from what I understand so it has some hold on the industry.

Perhaps they are onto something here, 1 cartidge you buy a huge sd card then you can travel with your collection all at once and can back up saves etc. If Nintendo was doing something similar I'm sure they'd be profiting off of it.

majatt

@Musai:

I always find it cute the way some people seem to think they simply deserve anything in this world.

The corporation may be big, mean, and faceless, but that doesn't change the fact that you are stealing from them. It's their intellectual property, and you should either give something to them in exchange for their product or do without.

Mact

@phinehas: Here's a better metaphor - piracy is the common cold of the game industry. It's a bit annoying and does some minor damage, but you can't cure it and it will always be there, so get a grip and move on.

As for just how much damage piracy is doing, well, I don't know. How long did it take before a convenient, cheap and easy-to-use piracy solution became available for DS? (I mean the type that ordinary kids are likely to use and that is commonly known, not something that costs nearly as much as a DS and you can only buy it from some dodgy firm in Hong Kong.) A year or so right? How do DS software sales before and after that period compare? I doubt they went down... if they went up, would they have gone up more without piracy? Maybe, but seriously, it doesn't matter: either way games are selling well.

(I don't have an R4. Might get one sometime for homebrew, but can't be bothered right now...)

@Ett: Really? I thought game stores were spectacularly bad at that kind of customer service.

quen

@Musai: If you're getting entertained enough to play it, it's stupid to claim you don't want this kind of thing made, so you make a statement by not buying it. Its purpose was entertainment and it served that even if it's a mere remake, and yet you try to justify not paying for it? Stupid.

If it was true you don't want those things made and therefor make such statements then you'd play the game you bought ages ago, or a backup rom of it which would be legal since you own the original.

And keane again, I'm fine with people TRYING games once or twice then deleting or buying, like Fox said he did, but it's stupid to play through a game then not buy it because it had a bad ending section or because it's not worth the money even if though it's served its entertainment purpose enough to be played for an amount of time...

You still don't have to pirate EVERYTHING though, which is where my common sense comment was aimed at. You can tell what games you're likely to enjoy just by reviews and other people's opinions and gameplay videos, and potential demos even though all of these can be misleading if just taken at face value, which is not something one should do. Being into games for a time makes people able to distinguish what they'd like just by learning about it. I'm sure you don't pirate EVERYTHING to give it a chance, so it's silly to act like I would buy just ANYTHING because I haven't gotten the chance to try it.

Al3xandr0s

@Keanu: In store in the Netherlands,Belgium,Germany and Britain.

Ett

@Centy: Blizzard, Activision and Valve are BAD examples of companies doing well despite piracy. World of Warcraft is Blizzards big money winner, and essentially unpiratable. Other Blizzard games have used and will continue to use BNet, which again almost makes it impossible to pirate.

And then you have Steam. Which is like some anti-piracy dream. It's still possible to circumvent and run some games, even the multiplayer ones, but they've made it so the hassle of doing so will mean only determined pirates will do it, as opposed to casual "lets give this a try and then never end up paying for it even though I like it" pirates.

As for Activision, I can't think of a product better designed to beat piracy than Guitar Hero.

Not every company can operate in this way, and not every game is suited to it. But those 3 examples all make piracy far far more trouble than it's worth to a lot of people who would otherwise pirate their games.

Lu-Tze

@Ketch2k8:

If it's trash, don't play it at all.

Mact

I own one of these cards (Mine is a Personal Media Player, and I think it's made by Datel). I actually got it from Gamecrazy.

I use mine to emulate Neo Geo games with NeoDS ( [groups.google.com] ). Having a Neo Geo emulator running Samurai Shodown II or Last Blade or Ninja Masters at full speed & sound trumps any DS game.

I bought one of those Nyko Charger Grips to make the DS bulkier (easier to do moves) and basically my DS is a portable Neo Geo machine. Funnily enough, it's not piracy because I own a Neo Geo, but I wouldn't fault anyone who didn't.

So yes, it is possible that the majority of people out there really are using them for homebrew, because sometimes homebrew is better than what you can buy on the DS.

I really do need to get back to playing the 3rd Phoenix Wright game though...

@djack: LMAO

Billkwando

Rental services like Gamefly make the "try before you buy" excuse quite weak. The only thing you are out from a bad game are a couple days shipping before the next one comes in, and the costs are miniscule compared to a full purchase.

taidan19

My PSX was modded, and I pirated a big bunch of games for it, but there was a little problem, in my country (in those years) no one sold original games. In 1999 I opened a bank occount, and received a credit card, since then, I never returned to pirate games, my firt source for games was eBay, and thanks to the modded PSX I even imported some Japanese only games (Chrono Trigger & Policenauts). My PS2 has the biggest library of games, it was never modded, so I lost some japanese only games, mostly anime, and the Dragon Ball games without the crap english dub/sundtrack.

rdcarvallo

@Ett: Where? Please don't tell me Gamestop/EB/Gamecrazy cause they are very bad with returns and only offer store credit. I spent alot for a game and I don't want 30% of what I spent as store credit... No thanks

Keanu

Oh god, I have horrific news!
Windows has been officially banned in Europe, due to the fact it allows people not only to run ill-gotten code on their computers, BUT IT ALSO ALLOWS THEM TO ACQUIRE IT!
BAN THIS SICK FILTH.

toejam316

@Keanu: Allot of store give you the change if you don't like the game you can exchange is for another the next day.

Ett

@Musai: "The only crime you're committing is making an already huge, faceless corporation lose your $50 dollars, which in a way is consumer choice in itself."

Exactly, if you've been saving up $50 for that "hit" and it becomes a flop I would be pretty pissed that I put $40~50 for it.

Keanu

@justlikebuck:
While Mr Modchips won his appeal in R v Higgs the judgment makes it pretty clear he only won because the prosecution had tried to make a particular case which was unconvincing. The court made it clear that if they had run a different arguement the prosecution would have stood.
That same arguement, that a modchip or R4 allows an infringing copy of code to be made in RAM, can now be used by ELSPA with the approval of the Court of Appeal.

GusTavToo

"funnily enough", if you came across a game that caught your eye and looked good by box art, reviews, and friends recomended it and you bought it and found out it's a junk game, you would be pretty bummed, right?

How I see it, it just takes out all those and leaves it up to the consumer to decide to make a purchase after trying it.

Keanu

As far as I'm concerned, DS pirates are a fraction of a fraction of the DS owner base. How many people actually know how to acquire an R4, let alone deal with firmware, etc...I won't lie, I own an R4 and I use it to play import games or new releases on a regular basis. And as long as it's not some super obscure niche game depending on sales for a sequel or something along those lines, who is it harming? The developers? Please, if a company like Square Enix loses tens of thousands of sales on another Final Fantasy rehash on DS, would that even phase them?

Credit where credit's due. If it's an interesting new concept or something from an indie publisher/developer, I buy it, no question. If it's something like Etrian Odyssey 1 or 2, or any of the Phoenix Wright games I buy it. In a heartbeat. If it's a remake that I already bought years ago (I'm looking at you, FFIV DS) you can bet I won't be wasting $50 on it.

Call my logic flawed, whatever, but it's my choice. There is a very distinct difference between going into a store and stealing a game/TV/product, and downloading a game. The only crime you're committing is making an already huge, faceless corporation lose your $50 dollars, which in a way is consumer choice in itself.

Musai

@Ketch2k8: Zelda springs to mind

JellyDoodle

@Kajetan: But if the industry ever stops its attempts to prevent piracy, even more will be pirated instead of purchased. The industry can't be overbearing, but there's a certain amount of effort they have to make so that piracy doesn't get worse than it already is.

Pi-face

@Billkwando: Do rental services turn one sale into multiple copies that can be played simultaneously? Comparing a rental company to a copyright infringement is more then a LITTLE BIT of a stretch.

The argument that music\movie\book piracy is the same as borrowing a CD\DVD\book out of a library similarly flawed, for the same reason, yet it comes up all the time. *shrugs* I think folks have already decided they want to get something without paying for it and find their justification after the fact.

NateN

@Kazzahdrane: I had something similar happen to me back about 8 years ago. This dude comes in with a duffel bag full of shit, and asks point blank: "Do you guys buy burned Dreamcast games?"

/facepalm

evslin

The R4 is to the DS what lockpicks are to doors. There are plenty of legitimate reasons for owning both ("I want to develop/run homebrew.","I need to be able to unlock doors when I don't have the key/I like tinkering with locks.") But anyone who denies that there isn't a LARGE illegitimate use for both isn't paying attention at best.

@slomo788: Do blank DVDs contain a copy of DeCSS\DVD Decrypter\DVDShrink\etc? The R4 does contain code specifically designed to get around the NDS's copy protection, so you aren't QUITE comparing apples to apples. (You aren't the only one either, but the star made you jump out.)

NateN

@Al3xandr0s:
The urban legend of piracy being bad for the software industry is old as the software industry itself. It's a mantra, a charm, a make believe story you use, when in need of an easy answer to questions like "Why does my game suck commercially?".

If you are going to deal with digital products, you have to accept, that these products are being "pirated". You CANNOT control every aspect of its distribution like in the "old days" with analog goods. But this is not an easy fact to accept. Giving up the illusion of control, accepting the fact, that there are many ways, people can use your product without paying.

Therefore we might see at least one or two generations pass, until this urban legend will finally vanish from the face of earth and our minds :)

Kajetan

@Mact: Until you remember that the pirate had to purchase the game before he uploaded it as well.

Rental service or pirate? They both buy one copy that gets distributed to multiple people.

(You may split the hair that rental places may buy multiple copies, but then again, sometimes multiple pirates buy the same game and upload it.)

Billkwando

@Billkwando: Kick ass man... and is that Vash I see? :P

Keanu

@Keanu: I own a Neo Geo console and an MVS cart converter ("Pranslation") but two of my IRL friends own Neo Geo cabinets, and one of them modded his to be a dual Neo Geo/Hyper Neo Geo 64 cabinet.

Here's my jonx:

Billkwando

Piracy is theft, plain and simple, everytime this comes out we get the usual defences of:

1) I do it because I don't like DRM.
2) I do it because I want to test a game before I buy it.
3) I do it because games cost too much.
4) The company that I steal from doesn't lose anything / can afford to lose it.

So to quickly rebutt these ideas...

1) If no one pirated software there would be no DRM.
2) Stores like Game used to offer 10-day, no quibble, return policies. They stopped doing this because people would buy the game, pirate it and return it.
3) Games development costs more because of piracy, it's a fact, if not because of lost sales then because developers now feel the need to spend extra money on including DRM due to rampant piracy. These costs are inevitably visited upon the consumer.
4) Due to the increase in cost of games from developers who try to prevent thieves from copying their software honest game purchasers (myself included) have to suffer inflated prices. So every one of you who has stolen a game has increased the price I pay for the games I purchase and has have in fact stolen from me.

I don't know why I, or anyone else bothers really. You all know it's wrong, just like we all know you're still going to do it. Just don't act all surprised when the charts are topped by software that comes with a $/£60 peripheral, or is suffixed with a "Z" and proper games only appear once in a blue moon and sell two copies before everyone decides to sack it off and bit torrent it. Why two copies? Because I will always support an industry that I care about by buying the products it produces, and the other copy was bought by the guy who put it up on The Pirate Bay.

ThursdayNext

@cdammers:

I stand correct, you will monitor knives! But you can still buy them ;) . That's the point

Herodito

@Billkwando:

Until you remember how many copies that Gamefly, Blockbuster, and the like have to purchase from the game companies in order to rent them out.

That equals a sale to them.

Mact

The faux enlightened "consumer choice" advocates here sound very, very silly.

thesycophant

@Ketch2k8:

I'd be more ashamed of being interesting in Speed Racer for DS at all.

Mact

@GusTavToo

"Prosecution had tried to make a particular case which was unconvincing." Is there another another was to loose a court case?

Anyway, the prosecutions argument was convincing enough to convict him the first time around. Whilst they could all go round in circles, £1 million is not something a protector of artists rights can loose too often.

ELSPA just making noise as part of the outdated entertainment business models of the world. Of the 1.5 billion (I forget if it's £ or $, or just made up by ELSPA) lost to games piracy each year, I wonder how much of that could have gotten into the hands of the developers, assuming everyone who pirated would've actually bought the game.

justlikebuck

@majatt: Loads of developers have moved to digital distribution. Piracy is as strong as ever.

Al3xandr0s

I know a guy who actually dumps his own roms to put them on his R4 instead of downloading them. Now that's dedication.

JonDarkwood

@ƒox:

"Is there any harm done if I weren't actually going to buy those games in the first place? "

Yes. Because you're playing it anyway.

Mact

@lucasreis: Not all NDS games are at resonable prices. They are offering some games at $40 which is about $10 off a normal price of a new PS2 game.

Keanu

I´m slightly shocked.

I thought piracy wasn´t big on Europe and the United States because the prices of the games are reasonable. In Brazil, for example, Mario Kart Wii costs alone, almost the price of the console itself (the original price, I mean). The Wii costs a 1000 dollars here and the Xbox 360 almost 1500 dollars. Piracy is big on South America just because of the ridiculous prices of the games and consoles (most people here buy consoles on Black Market or they tell people to bring them instead of buying them from licensed retailers).

So I`m very surprised about piracy being big where doesn´t really need to be (my opinion). I don´t support piracy but living in a country where the average salary is 200 dollars (fortunately I´m not living this kind of reality) piracy is tempting.

However, I do have some gamer friends who make something like 400 dollars, with discounts on taxes, and they pirate their games just because it´s impossible to buy them without taking off your kidney to do it.

About the R4, I don´t even have a DS, but I´m going to buy one for my girlfriend and I´m very interested in one to emulate Genesis and Snes games!! (I own a Nomad, but it was never a good portable device to begin with...)

lucasreis

@Dusk777: Pay 50 quid, import it, when the industry sees that there is a market for this type of title it will be distributed in other territories. You will have helped the industry rather than damaging it. Take some responsibility instead of blaming everyone else for your crimes.

ThursdayNext

Over and over again, all over the world, this sort of thing has been investigated and courts have found that there is nothing illegal going on on the part of the retailers. It's like chasing car salesmen because some people break driving laws.

A look at the PC industry shows what happens when companies are too zealous about piracy. Remember BioShock? Yeah, exactly. PC gamers have had enough of anti-piracy measures because they are generally ineffective, except to stop legitimate gamers playing. Companies need to come up with moderate anti-piracy measures. Not to help the pirates, but because an over-zealous approach hurts legitimate customers, whilst the pirates will find a way around it all anyway.

Mister Adequate

@Pi-face:
Has any copy protecting scheme ever worked as advertised from the copy protection developers? Everything is being pirated, right now ... and Hollywood has made a record revenue last year, Stardock make shitloads of money, Oblivion was a smash hit on the PC despite the fact, that there was no copy protection and even no multiplayer. What more examples do you need, to realize, that piracy IS NO THREAT AT ALL! How many examples do you need?

Everything is being available for free, right now. Why do people keep on buying movies and games? Look at the music industry, backing down from DRM, because it didn't help the sales of music downloads and CDs at all.

Is there any proof, any hard evidence that "piracy" is hurting sales? I wait for this proof since the premiere of the tape deck, when the music industry feared the dawn of modern civilization ...

"Piracy" is NOT a problem. It's only an excuse for people, who don't want to admit, that nobody wanted to buy their products. Do not fear piracy. Just start caring about your potential customer. Give him something, that he WANTS to buy your product willingly. Does this stop piracy? No, because piracy does not matter :)

Kajetan

R4 FTW!!! If they didnt charge 30 quid for tetris or some of the absolute rubbish on DS then people wouldnt pirate it. Well thats probably crap, people dont like spending money. So if there is a way to do/play/watch/listen to something for free then its always going to happen. I love my R4 its saved me having to carry my PSP around to listen to tunes, its also a great organiser and movie player. Of course I play DS roms on it but apart from spending 50 quid on an import DS game how else am I going to play cool stuff like Jump Superstars that'll never get released in the UK!

Dusk777

I've got a couple of buddies that have R4's and I frown upon their use of them. It's all personal opinion, but using it to pirate games definitely hurts the industry and using the defense "I didn't want to pay [insert price here] for that game" contributes to the increasing cost of games.

I could understand using the R4 for homebrew, playing mp3s (although everyone pretty much has an iPod or comparable device), and emulating older games (that you own in some form cartridge, etc...). I can even agree with those who use it to try out the game (Nintendo should really expand their ability to download demo's like the XBOX360) then delete it and purchase the cartridge. Games are getting expensive and we don't want to make poor purchases, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't purchase at all.

gr8asianman

I'm glad that someone is doing something about this in the UK.

slash000

@surft: While I agree that no-one who owns an R4 or similar is going to see the light and go out and buy every game that they downloaded and played through. However I don't agree with your opinion that everyone is selfish to that extent. I also don't think that those of us who believe that video game theft is wrong should be quiet about it just because it probably won't change anything.

On a side note, I'd love for everyone to stop calling it piracy. People who steal cars are not called "Car Pirates" they are called thieves and are rightly reviled as such. Calling it "piracy" removes it from the natural abhorrence the general public feels when confronted with theft and moves the illegal copying and distribution of software into something akin to "Scrumping." (if anyone wants to make any Red Dwarf - Justice references here, go for it.)

Stealing is stealing, and stealing is wrong. Didn't your mother teach you that?

ThursdayNext

@lucasreis: That's insane dude... And with wages of 400 dollars? Why the fuck do they bother opening shop there at all then?

Al3xandr0s

I'm pretty content with the argument I've been presented; I don't use linkers and I haven't for a very long time out of respect for the video game developers, publishers, etc. This is sheerly because I budget money into purchasing video games as well as a cushion to cover my impulse buys of the same nature. However, I'm usually very cautious on my impulse buys as well as my calculated purchases for the reason that I'm timid of trying a game I know nothing about out of the fear that the game may no be something I really want. Personally, I think this has limited my overall exposure to various titles I may have otherwise enjoyed (This doesn't include MySims or any of the Imagine series, you don't have to be a rocket scientist on these). Overall though, I believe that this whole argument is a great deal like music, if you download a few tracks off an album and it sounds really good, it might be worth it to buy the whole thing. Same thing with a video game, if someone doesn't have the money to blow, this is an alternative to see if a game is worthwhile and subsequently decide to purchase it.

AndrewG009

@Billkwando: Great, now you're going to get me looking on eBay again for homecarts! I'd purposely avoided that for a good few months because it was costing me an arm and a leg, but now I'm feeling that Neo vibe calling me! Nice little collection by the way!

TyrannosaurusRox

Yup, piracy is illegal folks but you probably won't go to prison or hell for participating in it. So, what will stop you? Your conscience? Your sense of right and wrong? That your damaging an industry and raising prices for legitimate buyers? No, in the end, let's face it we're all selfish pr*ks and what do selfish pr*ks want? Whats good for themselves. So we buy our R4s and M3s because it makes us happy. We don't care if one artist or writer is getting demoted or losing his job for underselling their game. Who the hell are they? Will they call you or write a threatening e-mail asking you to stop using your flash card? No. Will they ever affect your life in the near future, ruining it to the point of no return? No.

So to everyone cared to admonish the R4/flashcard users, or any other pirated software out there, I'm sorry but your arguments may be logical and sound to a normal functioning, and cooperative community. But in reality there is none so perfect or so sanitized to warrant one. Everyone wants what's good for them, what makes them happy and so do you. Everyone one of us are selfish pr*ks and so are you.

surft

@Al3xandr0s: I already made the calculus based on that.

The Xbox 360, on official retailers here, is priced as R$ 2.400 (2 thousand and 400 reais) which is 1.200 dollars (but there are prices selling higher than that). The initial price was 1.500 dollars. You can believe that, I´ve done my math lessons before. The prices here are ridiculous. That´s why I bought both of my current gen consoles (and games) from other countries.

lucasreis

I've never seen a store carry them, I though they were online only.

MetalGearMax

@NateN: I'm just being devil's advocate. You're right about the simultaneous thing, of course.

I'm also going to mention Neo Geo again. Because I can.

Billkwando

@lucasreis: Eh, American dollars? because I can't really believe that. If you just mean some Brazillian currency that is worth a lot less (say like the Japanese yen for example) then you need to learn much more about how currency works and realise you aren't paying more just because you're paying a higher amount of a different currency...

Al3xandr0s

@Keanu: I know, and I believe you. It´s just that I´m so used to absurd prices here that my perception tends to be different.

lucasreis

I own a CycloDS (Same thing but supports SDHC) and I love it

ThatSpecialSomeone

@Billkwando: To be honest, I'm fine with the classic emulators. There is a lot of old stuff out there that is, most likely, never going to be produced again on any platform. If you own the old games and want to slap an emulator on your DS to play them on the road, I doubt anyone is going to give you a hard time on that. If it's something particularly old & esoteric that you'll never be able to buy and you want to play it on an emulator, I can't really see the harm. But when a game comes out and it's immediately up on the web for anyone to download, that is the style of infringement that I think is pretty rotten.

NateN

Personally, I steal many DS and PSP games with my R4 (only good ones, that I won't buy after seeing how great they are, for that matter), and I enjoy it a lot as there is no bad consequences for me, that I can immediately perceive.

Oh, and for the ironical part : I'm a game developper.

John_Norad

@Musai: How did you buy the FFIV DS remake years ago, when it didn't even hit Japan till last December? Make more sense.

Ortega

@ThursdayNext:

Yup my mother did teach me that. But people still do it.
Do you have some explanation for that other than self interest?

surft

@Al3xandr0s: Yeah, I often ask myself why they bother to do it. I´m fortunate to have a better salary than the average, but for most people the prices here are overkill. That said, I´m still against piracy, I just wish they could drop the prices for us (south america is filled with passionate gamers)

lucasreis

@Al3xandr0s: Again, you're skirting the argument and giving everyone an example of why the industry does such things: because there's plenty of people waiting at the trough for whatever price they're thrown.

Grahf

wutever. if a game is triple a quality or niche but good, sure ill spend my hard earned money to buy it. if the game sux, i wont even bother downloading it. simple as that. the only games i do download are import titles (cuz honestly, im not gonna be charged an extra 40% on a game to pay the middleman)

maraxusofk

Let them go after the R4 card, its an outdated card for newcomers to the homebrew scene. So many better and not to mention cheaper cards have come out since. Example: the CylcoDS. So go ahead and focus your efforts on the R4 it's outdated like your mom's 1999 Minivan.

elgringoguapo

@Grahf: Sucks for you gaming is a luxury good and so they can charge what they see fit for something that's not a primal need. If this entertainment is too much for you, and you aren't willing to wait for prices to drop, then find other kinds of time killing entertainment to replace gaming.

Al3xandr0s

@Lu-Tze: So are you really saying it's an ease of use thing that makes people pirate stuff? Only when it's harder to pirate they actually don't? That's silly. If it's possible to pirate it then they'll pirate it regardless of its difficulty, since the difficulty is rarely more than just using a torrent and maybe an extra tool or two made by another individual. It's always harder to pirate than to get a legal copy also, except for when there are fuck ups that render legal copies not working. As for not playing with friends, well, how so? You can easily share your pirated copy with a friend. And if you're friends you're probably alike in some ways, perhaps one of those ways is piracy...

Al3xandr0s

@Al3xandr0s: That's skirting the argument. No DS title should retail for more than $30-$35.

Grahf

@ThursdayNext:

Please don't start the "it's not piracy, it's theft" arguement heren again. It has been debated before and there is an absolute legal difference between copyright infringement and theft.

For one, one of them lands you in jail, and the other only gets you a fine.

@TyrannosaurusRox: Thanks. I only buy the games I like playing. It's not an investment to me, so I'm not one of those people who looks at carts and sees dollar signs.

@NateN: I feel pretty much the same way.

I did the Twilight Hack on my Wii, and all I've downloaded onto it are old Ranma 1/2 and Tenchi Muyo SNES games. LOL

Billkwando

So wait for the price to drop, do you really have to have every shiny new game on release day? Heck, all games are expensive @ launch.

Al3xandr0s

@Al3xandr0s: Reiterating the points I made the first time that you didn't bother with, BNet was a very effective anti-piracy measure, which predated WoW. And yes, it is possible for you to pirate Valve stuff. I didn't say it wasn't, what I said was it was much HARDER. Copy Protection is always breakable, but if it's more trouble than it costs to just buy the game (and even then wont let you play with your friends) then it's going to encourage sales.

It just seemed a particularly poor choice of companies to use as an example, as their big successes are largely online games that are far more easily to control piracy on, and in particular BNet and Steam as systems do a reasonable job.

Lu-Tze

Let me say this: Regardless of whether or not I agree or don't agree with piracy, DS games are becoming TOO EXPENSIVE. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that every new game Square-Enix releases on the DS is $40. The absolutely most I'd pay for a portable game, aside from something that was the second coming of portable games, is $30.

Grahf

Oh, wow, piracy arguments again. If I carefully break this down will you all stop?

...No?

Well, I'm going to do it anyway, so there.

In short, you are not ethically entitled to pirate games; not even for short term 'trial' use. Your motivation irrelevant to the ethics. The games are their intellectual property, not yours, and they have a right to determine the distribution of their property. However, in the same vein of property rights, you have the right to own an R4. The object itself has no morality; what you use it for determines your ethical standing.

While a practical analogy of rental stores to piracy may have value (comparing the effect on a developer's profit), an ethical analogy to rental stores is flawed. A rental store can rent out a single copy of a game to only one person at a time. While the rental store (or person) has the right to determine the use of their one copy (through rental or lending), they do not have the right to reproduce the intellectual property. The purchase of the game only gives them control over one copy of that IP, whether they lend, rent, or resell it. A logical equivalent for software piracy only exists if the provider for software piracy uploads his game to one single person, then deletes his copy, destroys his disk, and assures that the download recipient will do the same when he is finished playing it. If this insane situation is not the case (protip: it isn't), then you cannot compare the two ethically.

From a practical standpoint, the effect of software piracy on developers is debatable. It is possible that piracy hurts developers and publishers across the board. It is also possible that it benefits the developers of quality games, and punishes those who make poor games. If a software developer claims that piracy is hurting the company, we have a right to question said statement, and dispute its validity. However, we are not ethically entitled to their property through the invalidity of said statement. That twisted logic is akin to saying, "Since Wal-Mart's overall profit will likely be unaffected by one instance of theft, I am no longer morally responsible if I steal a TV!"

It's not that hard, people. If you pirate, at least be honest and admit your are participating in the theft of property you have no right to. Yes, this even includes the times you weren't planning on buying the game anyway. If you want to say, "It doesn't hurt the developers," go right ahead, but don't act like you've done no wrong Your moral status is linked to your beliefs on property rights. If you believe all IP is the property of the collective populace, I think you're an idiot, but at least you're consistent. However, if you believe that a person (or, by proxy, a company) has the right to protect and distribute their ideas, don't make the logical fallacy of "I caused no harm" = "I did no wrong."

ninjafetus

Anybody remember when State of Emergency came out for ps2? That game was endlessly hyped by every goddamn gaming magazine under the sun. It was supposed to be revolutionary. I was a young lad at the time with much disposable income, so I preordered the game and picked it up on launch day. I got home and to my horror was playing one of the worst games ever created and sold to the masses. If only I had known about piracy at the time I would not have wasted so much money on a game I only played once for about an hour. I tried to like that piece of shit, but it sucked so hard.

JakeB1322

Btw im totally agaisnt using them to play brand new games etc and agree with what people saying above about really old games u may want to play for example a gameboy game as they wont fit in the ds

adamr999

I've seen a lot of reasonable arguments here and a few unreasonable ones. Still I have yet to see anyone elaborate on who's getting all that money that a pirated game isn't worth to these particular consumers.

I can believe that half the price tag on a game goes into manufacturing the physical product, shipping it, and marketing it. What's left is disproportional split between the publisher and developer. Then the end user has to spend the gas and the time to meet them half way there.

What baffles me is that this business model seems to insist that all the people involved in these processes deserve customers and money whether or not it provides any real value to the consumer.

Pirates provide all these services FOR FREE, and in their SPARE TIME. So what is it that makes these people feel they DESERVE a customer, and have a right to their money?

If the publishers would just let them buy the game data through an I-Tunes-like service for 10-20USD, or whatever new price reflects the obsolete costs of production, they would see more people actually paying money for their product.

liquidnumb

I dont have one (yet) but havent used my ds for like a year because there arent any games worth buying because nintendo make boring useless friendly family orientated games now for the casual market so what do they expect?
people would rather have an r4 and play games and if they decide they like them they will probly go and buy it! but its not like you can walk into a retailer and buy one because ive not seen game,gamestation,hmv,woolworths etc selling them

adamr999

@JakeB1322: Oh crap.

I have an unopened copy of State of Emergency sitting on my shelf, waiting for a rainy day when I need something "awesome" to play. *weeps*

Billkwando

The R4 lets you run WHATEVER code on the DS without going through Nintendo.

By the same token, is it wrong to shoot a home movie, burn it to a DVD, and play it on a home DVD player without getting it published and mass produced? Sure, you CAN and probably would burn TV shows or movies to it instead, but that's the same wishy washy speculation that bans any technology for its potential uses. Oh wait, you pretty much can't have a handgun in Britain now, can you? (Unless you avoid the legal process, in which case, enjoy the abundance!)

*shakes head*

fuchikoma

I love how that article doesn't ONCE mention that the R4 has legitimate homebrew uses. Having said this I don't own an R4 but that's because my PSP is a more powerful homebrew platform than the DS.

Overlord44

Does anyone know if you can actualy save progress in a game with the R4 or a similar device for the DS?

HarkMammil

@liquidnumb: Your breakdown on costs is way off.
[www.forbes.com]
Note the "In Pictures" link.

@fuchikoma: I must respectfully disagree with your comparison. A DVD player will, by design, play a DVD that is not encrypted. A Nintendo DS will not run unsigned code without a device that has been specifically created to get around that limitation. So that is not exactly a fair comparison.

I still have to go back to thinking that the R4 is a lockpick. It is device designed to get around a lock. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with unlocking a door with a lockpick, nor is there anything wrong with running unsigned code on the DS*. But there are plenty of folks out there who have used lockpicks for nefarious purposes, and there is probably a healthy majority of folks who use the R4 for piracy.

*At least in my opinion. DMCA says otherwise in the US, EUCD says otherwise in the EU.

NateN

Funny how the only piracy advocate in this entire thread who mentions reviews states that they are just "one person's opinion". Apparently, there is only one video game reviewer ever, and he somehow prevents you from soliciting the opinions of anyone who isn't him.

@Billkwando: Please don't start the "it's not theft, it's legally copyright infringement" arguement here again. It has been debated before and there is a difference between the legal definition of something and the practical one.

If they were legally identical, would you still be arguing the law? Assuming-for the sake of argument-that piracy isn't theft, you're still arguing that it's a violation of a creator's right to control the reproduction and distribution of their creative work. Your argument is like saying "It's not assault, it's armed robbery".

@liquidnumb: "Pirates provide all these services FOR FREE, and in their SPARE TIME. So what is it that makes these people feel they DESERVE a customer, and have a right to their money?"

The part where they met the producer's price for their product. It's called capitalism.

And if you're making the silly argument that I hope you're not making; there is no such thing as a right to profit in capitalism. There's a right to sell, but no guarantee of a sale.

What no pirate has ever explained-to my personal satisfaction-is the part where they should be able to get a given product without paying the seller's price for it. In meatspace, that's what's known as "theft".

Jonn

@NateN:
That is true, and while I can't remember it, I think there was another video or media case that set a precedent that even if the platform was not meant to take unofficial media, it was still legal to produce media for it. For example, the various Tengen/Codemasters/etc NES carts that simply stunned the 10NES authentication chip with a voltage spike. This is now illegal particularly for Americans under the DMCA as a circumvention, but otherwise legal elsewhere.

A lockpick is a far reach but a good analogy. Again, outside the USA, it is quite legal to buy a lock, and then take a lockpick and pick it in your own home - the problem lies in picking other people's locks.

It sounds like fundamentally we agree on the R4's use anyway. Though personally I believe what this amounts to is that if someone wants to enact a law banning these things, they would be technically wrong in doing so even though they are typically used for piracy because it has legitimate uses not offered elsewhere at a consumer level (other than other similar flashcart devices.)

It was actually a little more ambiguous on the GBA because I would often and easily just boot my code over the link cable - and that method lacks the capacity to push a whole commercial game into RAM. I did have a flash cartridge though that I used for more easily demoing code I had written for a college project.

fuchikoma

@Jonn:
Well... possibly in terms of defending intellectual property to maintain rights to it. But that is a company taking legal action against would-be pirates (Nintendo has destroyed a popular flashcart company called "Bung" in the past. Companies being a concept though, we started seeing "Mr. Flash" products perfectly identical to the Bung counterparts after that...)

But what I brought up was the idea of a government actually banning the devices though and I am strongly against that unless their only use is piracy. These cards run DS code all inclusively, and homebrew is not a tacked on afterthought, so I cannot support a ban on these devices unless Nintendo starts selling us $40 homebrew devkits.

It's kind of like PSX mod chips - at first in order to play imports, you HAD to break the copy protection, so the fault was Sony's for tying the two systems together (I have understanding of, but no sympathy for, regional lockouts.) Eventually years later you could get a chip that enabled imports but not backups, but it was too late. On the other hand, if there was always one mod chip for imports, and one for pirated games, there would be a pretty clear case against the pirate chip.

fuchikoma

@Jonn: I don't like it when people intentionally misquote me.

I'm not making an argument, I'm suggesting that people know the definitions of the words they're using, only because it's been debated to death here in the past.

I personally don't care which one you call it, but it's a waste of time discussing it when better minds than yours or mine have made the point so much better in the past.

Billkwando

@fuchikoma: Really? If a device's primary use is for breaking the law, and the seller or manufacturer is aware of that, doesn't that make them legally culpable?

Jonn

Get one before it's illegal! And yes. So much more money could be made on DS without these things. like WOW.

MetaKz

@liquidnumb: Pirating will always be cheaper than buying (it's free, though the pirates don't offer all the services you mentioned, they provide alternative services - ie no boxes and retail distribution) so that argument doesn't make much sense. It's not like cheaper older games aren't still pirated anyway. Or like music isn't pirated because there are services like iTunes you made an example of. Or like independent developer games (which have a good ratio of money going to the actual developer since there's no publisher involved) which are cheap and sold online aren't pirated... Etc.

Al3xandr0s

@lucasreis: Maybe you can at least import from North America. Any delivery costs won't increase the price as much as what they sell the stuff there for by default...

Al3xandr0s

I use my r4 to watch porn on my ds.

4Degrees

@4Degrees: best comment on the whole damn issue. Period!!!

o_O

Resev