You would be hard pressed to find many gamers who could go from an NES controller to a 360 or PS3 controller without a learning period. When I first started playing games that had 4 shoulder buttons and 2 analogue sticks to use I got used to them.

This is a game that provides freedom of movement, with what looks like few, if any at all, camera issues. If it takes me 30 mins of goofing around to enjoy hours of goofing around I'm all for it.

peacefuloutrage

Now i want to play this game even more!
Really im just tired of how videogame´s controls are evolving lately, if there is a pit , i want to jump it and pass it myself , i want to be able to fall if i jumped early or if i made a mistake. I want to play the games.
I don't want assasins creed controls,to give an example...

symphony_of_the_night

@Ashurahori: I criticize this character design because it's symptomatic of the tried and true "toughen" up formula. That's how we get ridiculous characters like Marcus Fenix and Bad Prince from Prince of Persia 2 (even included bear growling heavy metal). It's just my opinion and my nostalgia, but I preferred the old version of the Bionic Commando Character. He wasn't the typical tough dude with a chip on his shoulder that we see so often today in games.

ExistentialEgg

@vernichter: I think that's what he meant by intuitive. If you still needed to look at a manual after the prison level, I'd be surprised. It used a fairly simple layout, and the buttons were well placed (for a right hander at least): the more you needed to press a button, the more likely it was a trigger, or an easy-to-reach face button. It didn't dick around with swapping sticks for targetting when you used a scope, didn't make the cover button a stick-click, and didn't require two or more face buttons to be pressed simultaneously.

stoneagedan

I just think that games are supposed to be... GAMES. I mean, you should lose sometimes. It's not actually fun (at least for me) when you finish a game and you have died once or twice. I finished Gears of War and only really had trouble with R.A.A.M. It took me a LONG time to be able to kill him/it/whatever. BUT, when i did, i felt GREAT. and that's what i think games are for. They should challenge you so that when you beat it, you feel good.

If the game follow today's standards, like really easy in the beginning and getting harder in the same pace in which you automatically learn to play it, it won't be any rewarding. You beat it. So what? The game taught you how!

Well, that's just my opinion though...

dynosaulo

@crobar: Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. So a good game developer has two options: either streamline your controls (maybe remove some features) to make it easier to master (and thus more likely to not outweigh the player's interest) or INCREASE the player's interest through graphics, sound, or story. If a game's story can suck me in then I become MUCH more accepting of gameplay quirks or difficult control schemes.

Of course, there is ONE more way to increase interest in the game, and that's what I suppose you should call "pre-game interest." Basically it's how much you want to play the game even BEFORE it grips you with graphics, sound, plot, etc. Often times this pre-game interest takes the form of nostalgia or hype, or sometimes it's just the knowledge that "it's made by so-and-so, so it must be pretty great once I get used to it." It's the games with tough schemes AND little to no pre-game interest (like no marketing) that have the toughest time.

Although, I guess, ironically, those "cult classics" that failed due to bad marketing actually manage to CREATE pre-game interest over the years: the "this is a cult classic, so it must be great" sort of hype. So they do okay, too, in the end.

Spiffyness

Developers, PLEASE DO NOT SIMPLIFY the controlls, I don't want another SPIDERMAN game.

nerdBOY01

I completely disagree that "...we've come to expect a certain degree of intuitiveness with our video games..." Look at Gears of War for example. Those were some pretty convoluted controls, but after a little time with the game, they felt pretty natural. I think what's most important is that the breakthrough eventually comes and you find yourself wondering what you thought was so difficult in the first place. There is a big difference between bad control and complex control, but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Super Pitfall = Bad Control
Sands of Time = Complex Control

A big complaint I had about Assassin's Creed is that they reduced PoP's fun climbing, running, jumping mechanics to holding a single button. It took a lot away from the "skill based" gameplay and quickly lost its appeal for me.

vernichter

The best advice that I can give to somebody having trouble with a hard game is the advice my father gave me.

"Stop being a pussy!"

gamadaya

They need to get rid of the "optimal angle" feature; That's confusing. You should be able to figure out that kind of stuff through trial-and-error, not find the designer's "sweet spot."

boopadoo

I personally dont like a game that doesnt challenge me with a learning curve of some sort. Whether it be the controls or the actual difficulty of the game, I dont think a game in this genre should be as simple as picking up the controller and being able to run straight through it. Just my 2 cents.

SilverRecluse

Ninja Gaiden 2 isn't that hard to control. Youca n button mash the first few levels with few problems. It's jsut a hard game, with plentiful cheapshots.

Unfamiliar control schemes can be odd, and some people dislike certain layouts, or foibles more than other. As fart as I'm concerned, Call of Duty 4 has a terrible control scheme, becasue it needs a stick click to sprint (X360). I find it awkward to pull off and then to sustain (which causes big problems on veteran), and long sessions make my hands cramp. "ZOMG I'm teh n00b" etc: It's not skill; I just find the controls poor, for what I want.

Dead Rising was difficult for me to control, mostly because the aim controls were mapped to the "wrong" stick, and were unresponsive.

Poor controls make the games difficult, they make the games difficult to play, and there's a big difference. You can't turn down the settings for crap controls, you can't look at youtube walkthroughs for ill-considered buttonmaps, and you can't get any fun out of your £40.

stoneagedan

Funny how some people are calling the main character a "silly dreadlocks macho guy", when the main character is basically an 80's sunglasses action cop hero.

Besides, what's wrong with dreadlocks? Why don't people criticize the ridiculously long and straight hair japanese androgenous characters seem to have these days, for example?

Ashurahori

I rhink Assassin's creed is a good example of controls that aren't what you're used to, but you pick up eventually and master it

LittleBigPlaneteer

this is something i tend to worry more about lately a game looks nice but controls are bad or too complex...i follow this simple rule...
if (time to lean control scheme >= interest in game or story)
{don't play game}

crobar

So the game has "control issues" because you are bad at it?

super ultra

i think if all games cater to the "pick up and play" mentality, gaming is going to get boring really quick.

and you should really change the article title, it's really really really misleading, makes it sound like there's something wrong with the controls not that they're not simply hard to get from the get go. Some other possible titles could be "bionic commando controls not intuitive", "bionic commando controls not pickup and play", "bionic commando controls not for lazy people", "bionic commando controls pwned me".

demonknightinuyasha

Why do people keep using Ninja Gaiden as an example? Ninja Gaiden definitely was very difficult, but the CONTROLS weren't. You move around, jump, and press two buttons to attack. Not very tough to comprehend, but UTILIZING the controls in a way that wins the game was tough.

This seems very different, as the controls concerning movement and whatnot are complex in and of themselves. It's not really a BAD thing, as long as the controls are well-defined and responsive, but it can be a bit of a turnoff if the game just throws you into the action right away without acclimating you to the setup first.

Spiffyness

I like a challenge so this doesn't really bother me. I have been turned off by the game from a demo I saw two months ago though. It just got repetitive after a while. As of now this is a renter

LittleBigPlaneteer

I think the hardest thing for someone to do is find enjoyment beyond their initial expectations. It's as if everyone goes into a game with a shopping list of requirements to tick off before the game can even be considered fun. That's why you see so much whining about the nature of casual gaming.

Raian1

The original had a STEEEEP learning curve. So I guess this shouldn't be surprising or disappointing.

DARTH_TIGRIS

I want a skill based Bionic Comando, just like the original

nerdBOY01

@ExistentialEgg: Me too. Now it seems strange to think that we ever played 3D games or FPS' without them.

I like skill based controls. You feel more accomplished. Think of fighting games. I hate the Capcom VS games that allowed players to mash buttons and win. We need more finesse people, not games that do all the work.

symeon6

Reminds me of my first experience with Devil May Cry... But after playing through the game on "Easy Automatic" I managed to plow through Normal with little trouble, and got about halfway through Hard before I moved on to other things.

Still, you usually expect some training wheels at the beginning, something to HELP you get used to the controls.

Zugdaga

Fifa is such a bad example. All you needed in the 90s was to shoot from the center with Germany to score but I'm willing to believe Bionic Commando requires as much skills as GRID, assuming you can't level up.

Fabrice

Well, in fairness, the game looks like it would control differently than anything I've ever played before, so I imagine it will take a while to get into the "swing" of things. That said, the trailer looked awesome, and I am highly anticipating this game.

DugDawg

As long as the game comes together and you really can do some awesome things, the learning curve is fine.

The first Tomb Raider had bizzare controls and a steep learning curve. Once you understood how Laura operated, however, the game really opened up and you were quickly leaping ledges and shooting wolves fluidly.

If it's the same situation then fine. If it's something like Pirates of the Caribbean, where the controls perform clunky whether you've mastered the controls or not, then you have a problem. Other than that, the only issue I forsee is finding the type of player who is willing to spend time mastering how the game operates so that they do eventually have fun.

Dark_Mirage

Bionic Commando has never been any easy game and has always been skilled base. It seems like a good sign if that's the case with the new one.

Razlo

This is what games lack at the moment: steep learning curves, and an actual challenge in the game. I realise theres a few exceptions, and often the option to change difficulty, but for the most part a lot of games seem to want you to just admire the scenery rather than experience the challenge.

Who else spent weeks trying to unlock the invisibility cheat on Facility in Goldeneye?

Remember first picking up Mario Kart, then gradually getting used to all the power slides, etc, until 150CC felt like a walk in the park?

Any avid Pro Evo or Fifa players out there? Even after playing at least a thousand games, I'm still learning some of the advanced controls and finding new ways to score.

Hard games stay with you, torment you, but when you finally finish them, having mastered everything... just feels that bit more special.

*sniff*

thewisestfool

I always read the manual and learn how to play a game.I am glad you will have to learn to play Bionic Commando. Games are way too easy to play, and insult the player with tutorials and baby-sitting.

jackal888

If the game doesn't recognize your play style, something is wrong. Let alone actually being able to play the game period. My first trip with DMC, met with a customized controller, and I screamed at screen. Turns out my friend switched the controls just to mess with me.

But a game like this shouldn't be a headache to play. From the trailers, it looks to be a fun ride. Kinda wondering if it might really deliver.

kadosho

Spiderman 2 was awsome at end game when you got good and how you could fly around that city in style. Ult Spiderman and Spiderman 3 compleatly killed that with their simplistic controls.

MehGinla

I can see this being Capcom's Ninja Gaiden(controls you have to learn before doing anything good) and if so, I approve.

PixelRambo

I think it's fine if a game has complicated(or different than other games of the same genre) controls as long as there's allot of depth to them. The game skate.(that period isn't punctuation as they actually titled that game in lowercase with the period at the end) comes to mind for me. When I first played the demo I hated it because I was so used to the THPS games. Once I let go of old habits and started to get the timing down the game became a blast to play.

DrunkenTrom

The guys on 1upYours were talking about how skill based the new BC swing mechanic is. Anyone going in thinking it'll be Spider-Man 2 style web slinging is going to be surprised I guess. I'll reserve judgment until I can try it myself. I like the idea that it's skill based, but I hope it falls within a reasonable range such that simply moving through an environment doesn't become an exercise in frustration.

MSUSteve

Some of the greatest games out there have had controls that took a little getting used to. I say just wait til you've had at least an hour with the game, and you'll be swinging along better than spiderman!

JoRo1986

It's called learning curve.

Clarke

Completely depends. I don't mind dieing a whole bunch initially if I know that it will pay dividends later.

Was the control scheme complicated, or unresponsive?

If it's just complicated, than learning it shouldn't be too bad. But unresponsive? Inexcusable!

PulpZero

You say it has control issues

But someone was able to take the controller and easily navigate a part you were having trouble with.

Sorry but phail

pewpewlazer

I don't mind. If the game interests me, I don't give a damn if it's hard to control or not.

Lost Planet had a gimmicky control scheme and it didn't stop me from playing it on and offline for a long while.

I mean if the controls are downright buggy, well that's another story...

Northern Cat

While I think its optimal that a game's controls don't require a thumb wrestling match to conquer, I also enjoy some games with more complicated control schemes that take time to truly understand - it may not be the best game out there but Sega's Gun Valkyrie comes to mind here.

Anarchist_Gamer

"The controls are skill-based," Best Gaming Quote ever, by a long shot. R O F L

JoshReflek

on your own*

Mit

so because a game is going to require a little more than just point and shoot, people start to freak out?? hmmm, come gamers, let's game, not let the game we are playing do all the work for us. so what if you have to take a little longer to learn the controls, once you get it down you'll be able to do all the cool stuff. Think back when you first played Street Fighter II, most people didn't learn the cool moves 'till later. Quit being a pu$$y!

the79gamer

I fall along the fence. If you look at a game like Ninja Gaiden, I would say that those had a good mix of both being difficult and yet with a little bit of practice allowing the player to do some great things with the combat.

If the game is like that I could see this kind of difficulty as a plus. However if this difficulty pertains only to a jumping gimmick, I would probably say fuck it and play something else.

Guttlesswonder

@DanteIX:

/facepalm

This isn't the NES era. A game should have either simple controls, or advanced ones that slowly come to light.

Having "LOL HARD" controls in a game is stupid in this day and age, espcially in a demo aimed to try and sell the blasted thing.

@ShaggE:

Learning how to Combo/Counter is a little different than "LOL THE TIMING WINDOW IS SMALL, PREPARE FOR INSTANT DEATH IN A PIT".

Terance : Soul Calibur :: Leigh : MGS

I think it's a good thing for this game. I wouldn't want the controls to be dumbed down, allowing you to for example, merely shoot in the direction of a big light up spot that you can almost completely miss, but they magnetize you to the spot anyways and you make the jump.

The amount of satisfaction you would get from navigating the levels on your, finding your own swing spots, and using your skills to swing in fancy, stylish ways, has to be MUCH greater than a more simple, intuitive interface that anyone can use.

The new gameplay trailer has me pretty excited for this game.

Mit

It is not good if you feel you are fighting against the controls, though not clear if that is what was happening here.

My take is that the fundamentals should be easy and intuitive, and the nuances should be hard. I'll use a nearly 15 year old (classic) game as an example: NHL94. The basics of moving your players were easy. The nuances, like manual goalie control or the best angle for a slapshot, were hard. Guys who couldn't use manual goalie control could still play competitive games, but they scored no breakaway or brook goals against my manually controlled goalie.

Beckx

I just want this game to be similar to the original in terms of challenge. I only was able to beat Bionic Commando on the NES once and once only because of it being fun, but extremely challenging. If this version can give me that same kind of feeling, then I won't worry.

DerrickDS

if once it's learned it feels natural then I don't mind a bizarre control scheme. Hell, I remember the first time I used Dual Analog sticks... I couldn't do ANYTHING, now it's second nature.

I'm still optimistic for this one... I can see the potential, plus you can unlock the old Bionic Commando Nathan Spencer Skin so you don't have to be this silly touch macho dreadlocked guy. I bet he has a troubled past storyline too. That's my only criticism, they should have stuck with the same character from the old Bionic Commando and not tried to "modernized" him.

ExistentialEgg

It seems kinda like a problem for the game, but then again how basic were those moves in relation to the game? controls in my mind should be intuitive but deep, in the sense that you should be able to pull of most basic commands with ease but the true skill of the game most come from more combiantion and timing, most old school games were like that in the sense that you could navigate the game easily enough but true mastery came from timing and finesse of basic movements (we had 2 buttons back then so it had to be simple). So yeah I think that might be a problem, personally though? I am willing to try to master them (i'm a sucker for a good challenge)

Soleyu

I like games that have deep controls, but aren't too hard to get to grips with. I dont like having to smash my brain in to work out how to navigate a level and kill some enemies, but having to learn the nuances and complexities of a level to kill enemies in style and reach secret areas is fine.

Bionic comando sounds rather fiddly, which is a shame as I was hoping for a spider-man 2 style easy swingathon.

vyleside

Hell have you ever played an Rts?

deathtastic

I was happy this game provided Capcom/Grin an excuse to do a proper remake of the original NES Bionic Commando. My thoughts on the next-gen update are

A) I was worried that navigating with the bionic arm in 3D would be hard as fuck based on the early trailers...looks like I may be right.

B) This game is like the prize that comes in my Bionic Commando: Rearmed Cereal. It's a welcome bonus if its good, but no deal breaker if its bad...as I'm still in it for the sugary-sweet Rearmed goodness.

Nightshift Nurse: Mile High Colonic

I think that tough controls allow you to do more in the game after mastering them. Examples at hand are the MGS series and .skate. But even then, simple and intuitive controls can make a great game. Example: Gears of War.

shak_0

Ninja Gaiden takes the same approach of "master the controls first, chuckleboy... THEN you may stand a chance", and it's deemed as a classic remake. So I'd not be too worried.

ShaggE

Such a misleading post title. You complain becuase you are not skilled at the game. GTA had crap controls and people didn't complain after they learned how to use them.

DanteIX

i think i trust capcom enough to make it work. i loved the new trailer of the game(art style is awesome), and i will still be picking this up.

feartheraven

The thing about intuitive controls is that it relies on previously acquired skills, and rarely if ever seeks to improvise or recreate. There's the occasional bell or whistle that's added on, but typically it's only one or two, and the game controls like you'd expect any other to. I've heard people curse and bitch about games that don't let you move the camera with the rightmost analog stick.

There's nothing wrong with controls that demand something of you, so long as they are central to the experience of the game and are learnable.

Maldron

The old Bionic Commando was hard and had a steep learning curve. It's thought of as a classic.

The new Bionic Commando is going to be hard and have a steep learning curve. People are worried.

Times have changed.

Sooku

Pretty simple really, if your controls hold back from the enjoyment of the game then your game as a whole suffers. I expect combo of good, well designed controls (not the least of which includes camera controls. I'm looking at you Too Human).

Learning the controls should not be part of the difficulty curve, the difficulty curve should come from actually playing the level or scenarios the designers designed for the games. It shouldn't come from having to press Green + Blue + RIght trigger to jump, metaphorically speaking.

spinal77

Hmm.. I guess I should have put a winky smilie at the end of my original post. *ducks the banhammer*

MrBionic

It depends. If you can see where the designers are going, and it can hold your interest long enough to learn the controls - Rock Band, for instance - then yeah, it's a good thing.

However, if it's just bad design to begin with, trying to mask it as "skill-based controls" is another potential awful corporate euphemism.

I sincerely hope this game is more like the former.

You Cannot Untoast

capcom always has to make things more difficult than they need to be. it's like the managers i work with, can't just leave things alone, let's complicate it by 3 steps.

themissing

Does the protagonist still sport dreadlocks?

nabils6

I think you need to buck it up and stop being a "Let the game do the work" pansy and learn to love learning how to play a video game again. That's what I think.

MrBionic

Better lighten up fahey...they're all over you =)

Im totally digging what ive seen from this game so far but I think your post is justified.

Im willing to learn if the game is worth learning for

KaliKOtt

Good complex games?

Mechwarrior 1-3
Freespace 2
Descent
Too many RTS or Tactics titles to list
Tomb Raider
Flight Simulator
Baldurs Gate II (and similar titles)
Oblivion (and plenty of turn based dungeon crawlers)
Lost Planet
Shadow Run (Genesis!)
Chrome Hounds

... I'm sure I could go on.

Dark_Mirage

Getting the controls right is the number 1 objective that all developers should have. It's the element that sorts a good game from a bad one. This game seems to be the later (didn't have high hopes for it anyway).

gencid

@PixelRambo: I thought Devil May Cry was Capcoms Ninja Gaiden :P

That said, I like me some controls that require timing. The feeling once you've got it down pat is exhilarating, plus it makes the next playthrough in six months more exciting.

Koztah

I, for one, am more than a little disappointed in the finality of the article title. Just blurting out that the game has "control issues" while at the same time pondering if it's yourself, the nature of the game or the lack of time involved seems...irresponsible.

Even a "might have control issues" would have sufficed.

SeedyROM

@Ashurahori: yeah. being cybored up counts for a LOT :) I'm not crapping on it, and I dig dreadlocks, I just hope he's not an ex-con bad guy turned good. So far the way his character is coming together has me a bit worried, and yeah, in one of the trailers he talks. I think his voice is the singer from Faith No More, who has that tough guy, kinda raspy voice.

ExistentialEgg

well a lot is already said.
I agree on the "do NOT simplify" opinion.
Some games are just better with more complex controls. like @vernichter: says. Sands of Time == good, but Assassins Creed is too simple.
Ubisoft could've made the controls for AC more complex but instead they went with the one button does all route.

If Bionic Commando CAN be played awesomely like the GRIN gentleman did, it will be ok. even if the learning curve is longer than 15 minutes. just make sure the tutorial thingy is skippable and fun.

zyberteq

@stoneagedan: Yeah, maybe that was a bad example... perhaps I should have used Mechwarrior 2, although thats more comparable to a flight sim than anything else. Admittedly, I'm having a hard time compiling a list of "complex-good" games.

vernichter

Doesn't anyone remember Mechwarrior? Not the casual action bullshit on the Xbox, but the REAL mech sim on the PC. That game had a ton of control aspects to master. Once you nailed them though, the game opened up into something incredible. I mean, the game itself wasn't even too complicated. Tasks were simple things like "blow up this building" or "defeat this mech". It was the controls that were the heart of the gameplay. Controlling the mech is what made those simple objectives so fun! The same can be said of titles like Free Space 2.

People complaining over controls that aren't entry level are silly. It's all well and good to have games as intuitive to control as RE4. That doesn't mean all games have to control that easily from the beginning to be fun though. You're the same kind of people that bug the crap out of me when you complain that the 360 controller has too many buttons or some crap.

Dark_Mirage

how many people were good at Gran Turismo at first? Especiall when most racers to that point were jam the accelerator and hope for the best. Thats what the licensing tests are for. If the game eases you into a complex control scheme then its fine. If it just expects you to know it that sucks.. If its just masking poor controls thats unforgivable.

TheOriginalEd

Honestly, I just don't have the time anymore to spend hours learning the controls. If a game feels like work (i.e. it requires you to train for it before you can derive even the most basic enjoyment from it), I won't play it, plain and simple.
If I were still a student, with the vast amounts of free time I had back then, sure, I'd love to spend/waste days trying to master a game, but now? No way.

However, that doesn't mean I'll bitch about games that do require a lot of dedication. It's great that they exist, and that developers keep making them - they're just not made for me. Even when I do reach a decent level of proficiency, I don't get the satisfaction that I used to when I pull off difficult moves.
Playing DMC4, I realized how much skill-based games bore me to tears when you have papier-mâché story and characters that don't exactly bolster the experience.

I guess my idea of a good game is first and foremost a strong plot with interesting characters and a compelling atmosphere. If a game fits the description, then the gameplay doesn't have to be stellar (as long as it isn't broken, of course).

As far as Bionic Commando is concerned, it's obviously far too early to form any kind of opinion.

[PS: Take what I say with some nuance: I still loved every excruciating second of Uncharted on Crushing mode, and I've already preordered Soul Calibur, so it's not like I'm 100% into "story-intensive, little skill required" games.]

Antiterra

"Bionic Commando has control issues" is a little misleading and implies the problem lies in the game but after basically slapping you across the face with the words "The controls are skill-based" he proceeds to show you that indeed the game can be played well by someone who knows what they're doing. In short the game isn't the problem it's the player. So maybe the title should read "Mike Fahey (and others) have issues controlling Bionic Commando". :) ... Now, I sure hope I don't end up falling into the "and others" with you.

hollowfreak

@ExistentialEgg: Have you guys even seen him speak? The dreadlocks, are actually something original, since you don't usually see alot of game characters with that kind of hairstyle. And we don't even know what kind of story the game has. Yes, the guy looks tough and muscled, but he's all cyborged-up, that's gotta count for something.

Ashurahori

I'm sure by the time you're finished with the inevitable tutorial levels, you'll be pro-swinging in no time... Unless the levels you played were tutorial levels..

/didn't read the comments

PlasmaMachine

@Ashurahori: Duh - because they're gorgeous. That said, sure, dreads are fine.

As for the controls, agreed that if controls are complex this should be introduced slowly. If you constantly die or have to keep repeating things because you fall off something, or whatever, that's just tedious - it's not really part of the challenge. When getting from A to B is more difficult than getting past the bad guys, something's going wrong. (Unless that really is the main part of the game, like it's a game about climbing or maybe Mirror's Edge comes to mind...)

quen

I think it's something you'll get used to. There have been plenty of games I claimed were impossible after playing for 20 minutes or so, only to persist and eventually get it. And by no means am I an expert, or anything even close.

I'm not sure if I'll buy this game or not, but I won't let this little tidbit be a factor in that decision, that's for sure.

kpugs

@Spiffyness: Yes, you could use the same three or four combos the whole game, but where's the fun in that? The really good moves are an absolute bitch to pull off on the fly, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

ShaggE

that sounds as bad as me trying to teach my parents how to use the address bar.

adragonfang18

Death and failure is a huge part of the fun of videogames. Same with losing in gambling. To enjoy the highs you must experience the lows. If you want intuitive controls, stick to WiiMusic.

etchasketchist

Reward people who spend lots of time mastering difficult controls? Sure (see: manual shifting in racing games, sniper headshots). But a game should have an intuitive control scheme that makes sense, both in the game itself and through the gaming world as a whole. Do not put movement on the right analog stick. Do not give the start/back buttons primary functionality.

A control scheme should not be an obstacle to overcome, period.

baberg

@Dark_Mirage: I was thinking more along the lines of third-person adventure-type jobbers. I think complex controls are so inherently linked to RTSs, sims, and hack-and-slash games that they go without saying. Lost Planet felt a little clunky to me. Not sure that Shadow Run's controls were all that complex (although I only played the SNES one - are they the same?) Guess I'll have to check out Chrome Hounds...

vernichter

YET ANOTHER BLATANT SLAP TO THE FACE OF ALL HARDCORE GAMERS FROM THE TRAITORS AT NINTEN-

(oh, sorry, lemme start over ...)

YET ANOTHER BLATANT SLAP TO THE FACE OF THE CASUAL GAMERS WHO NOW DRIVE THE ENTIRE VIDEO GAME INDUSTRY!!!1!1!1!

/bitchy gamer'd

PornoRabbit

@ShaggE: No, I definitely agree, but you miss my point. Sure, the tougher combos are harder to pull off, but that's just it: the TOUGHER combos. What if even the simplest actions (wall-running, the simple combos, blocking) were tough to get the hang of? That would be something else entirely, and that's how games like Gunvalkyrie and (apparently) Bionic Commando are. I'm not saying it's a PROBLEM; it's just that developers must be able to discern the boundary between complicated and convoluted, between difficult and frustrating.

Spiffyness

It doesn't matter what the game is, only how it is communicated. If Capcom intends to keep the controls that way, they better do 2 things:

1) Make sure people realize that they're going into a skill-based game (ie. you're gonna die a LOT initially).
2) Show that once you get it, you can actually do really cool, satisfying stuff.

Neither of which they've really communicated, as far as I can see from the trailers. In fact...I kinda expected the opposite when I hear them talking about auto-targetting grappling and what not.

stevesan

@Ashurahori: No no. I think I'm being misunderstood. I'm not at all implying that a challenge makes a game less enjoyable. Not at all! I loved Dead Rising. It was a /very/ tough game and I loved it.

Dead Rising had controls that where different but made sense.

Here's this for an example:

Goal #1 is to write a book. You can very easily and very enjoyable write a child's book. This is very fun to you. You do it and are entertained.

Goal #2 is to write a book that rivals War and Peace. This is a challenging book but you enjoy the story you're typing. It takes considerably longer and has an infinite amount of focus and mental handling but in the end, the story is fantastic and you enjoyed yourself immensely.

Goal #3 is to do goal #2, retaining the challenge, but we take away the shift key so you only can use Caps Lock for uppercase and it only works half of the time. We then pull all the keys off and let a three year old put them back on. They're all there, just not where they probably could best be placed. It's the same challenge just with sucky controls and responsiveness.

How long into #3 are you supposed to wait until it starts becoming enjoyable again? Does it ever become enjoyable? I think, judging by the videos and the opinions of the Kotaku staff, that this game probably falls into a #3 situation.

Odd_Fact

Im definitely buying this game, especially now that I know it has "skill based controls" and is not some casual throwoff game. Games with depth take a while to master, but in the end they are much more rewarding to play.

Basically, if the noobs who write Kotaku hate the controls, Im probably going to love it.

chronicdog

I love games where when you first start out you suck so bad but with each hour that goes by you get more and more comfortable with it until it feels like second nature and you wonder how you ever could have sucked so hard before. What this requires, is that the controls be difficult because they are innovative, not because they are just poorly programmed.

HenryJonesJr

@MrBionic: I clicked the article in the rss reader to say that. thanks for doing my work.

I hate games that go "press X to win"

Bunn

@MrBionic: lol, I wasn't sure you were kidding at first. I was thinking "damnthat's harsh."

But I definitely think that you should give a control system a fighting chance, which, depending on the game, could be up to an hour.

Sheesh, it took me hours to figure out the quicktime events in God of War, but now I can do them no problem (most of the time >.>)

TheBrainNinja

@Koztah: Devil May Cry always felt a bit more simplified due to little to no platform abilities(wall running and so on), plus it has a limited number of moves compared to Ninja Gaiden. Don't get me wrong though, I love the Devil May Cry series(except for the vile second installment).

Regarding timing I agree completely. When there is a little bit skill involved it can feel really gratifying to pull of a cool move.

PixelRambo

@Odd_Fact: Even as simply the experience, alot of games now have a much harder challenge for the player, exactly because of that. Bionic Commando might have a story, but I think it's gameplay-driven, just like Dead Rising was. Dead Rising made you feel like you were in the middle of a mall with a zombie outbreak wanting to assimilate you. It was darn tough.

On Bionic Commando, you essencially are a guy who grapples with a bionic arm. I don't think that's an easy thing to do, so it might take some getting used to, but in the end, it'll pay off, because you will feel in total control of the arm.

Ashurahori

I saw the first real trailer of the gameplay earlier this week on Xbox Live (check the E3 folder in Game Videos in Video Marketplace for a slew of goodness) and have to admit, it completely turned me off of this game.

Watching the video, the control looked clunky. I was getting frustrated watching it because as a swing comes to an end, the aim jerked a few times and the whole thing just seemed very unpolished. In which case this game needs more time in the oven. That or the team that made the demo need a hell of a lot more time playing the game before releasing any video of gameplay to the public.

It completely turned me off. To be fair, I probably wasn't going to get it anyway. It just has the slight bad taste you find with Hollywood movie tie-in games. The new remake of the classic though ... That looks like fun and I'll snag it on XBLA if it and SF ever come out. :D

Odd_Fact

Someone in the press still needs to play the game until it gets to that magical point at which the ponies will start flying overhead and shit candy. Frankly, I'd rather have a great game that takes a while to get into than a shitty game that's easy to play any day of the week.

mariospants

@baberg: Exactly.

Odd_Fact

@etchasketchist: See, I don't think I agree with that. With video games, we have two seperate levels entirely ...

We have the video games that are traditional (side scrollers, top-downs, clock chasers, etc.) where dying /is/ part of the game. The story and experience is either not effected by the death and the player is not removed from it. Very rarely do you get mentally attached to the gameplay to the point where dying is a detriment to the experience. It's actually part of it.

Then you have the new trend. The story tellers. The experience. Where being the person (in this case, Bionic Commando) /is/ the game. Playing that type of game, I don't want to die as the character. I certainly don't want to have my blood pressure and anxiety rise because 15 minutes into a demo, I'm more worried about the controls than I am what should otherwise be an opportunity to soak me into the story and make me want to /be/ the character in both gameplay /and/ cutscene. The controls of this adventure should help the story and game, not hinder it.

Odd_Fact

@etchasketchist: If you want intuitive controls, stick to WiiMusic.

Protip: "intuitive" does not mean "simplistic"

baberg

As a couple of others have mentioned, EA's skate. is a shining example of how a control scheme can start out seeming incredibly hard, and then intuitive, but still leave a lot of room for learning more. And sports games (baseball, football, basketball, soccer, hockey) have all been like this forever, with the exception of Wii Sports. It takes quite a while to get good at them, which is why I've always sucked at baseball games. I don't have the patience for them.

tk.

Back when you had to master the controls first, controllers had 1-3 buttons. The games didn't react well. You had a delay in jumps, like in Donkey Kong, Pitfall or Contra. The machines couldn't handle the amount of sprites, games would judder...

But that's not the case anymore. The consoles are top notch. Controllers are ergonomically designed and have one billion buttons. Controls don't have to be intuitive right away, but they should be easily and quickly understood nowadays.

Poison

I hate dumbed down controls. It's one reason why i often prefer PC games over console games. Games should be hard to master but at the same time feel rewarding when you get better and better.
Too many players nowadays want that the game plays itself. Hell i even find save options in many games unnecessary. Back in the days we had to play the game over and over again till the last boss. We played the same games for many weeks and months.

How does it come that players nowadays complain if a game is hard and challenging? Do we really only want games that are finished after 10 hours of gfx orgasm?

I don't understand the complains. If it takes a couple of hours to be a master with the BC controls then so be it.
I bet its like learning to drive a bycicle.

Gambrinus

I find it overwhelmingly satisfying when a game kicks my ass at first, then all of a sudden I'm beating its ass, and I know it's 'cuz I got good. I get annoyed when someone demands that all games cater to their lack of desire to improve. Why do people not want to improve, anyways? Once you get good at one, you'll be that much better at all the others, which opens up a lot of games maybe yah never had a chance with before.

Poojipoo

I don't mind having to sit down and learn a control scheme. It takes me a couple hours to get use to any shooter.

HoxtonHero

"The controls are skill-based,"...PLEASE tell me you bitch slapped the smug idiot who said this. That sounds really condescending. If he's going to talk like that, maybe he should quit being your "minder" or whatever and go back to trash talking with 12 year olds on XBL. Can he point out one (good) game where "skill-based" controls are not the case? Even button masher games are "skill-based", if you consider button mashing to be a skill. Is he trying to explain to a game journalist that the remake of Bionic Commando isn't a slot machine? Did he go to the Mark Rein (sp?) school of video game PR?

As far as the game itself goes, I'm hesitant to make any real "skill-based" judgment based on an unfinished game that I haven't seen yet. I don't approve of making controls unconventional just to be different, but if the game design lends itself to that, then so be it.

RonJeremy4Pres

Its like Ninja Gaiden. For a little while you button mash and you barely get by. But after you've spent several hours playing, you learn moves, timings, and how to react to your enemies and environment on the fly, and in the end, you feel like a total badass.

Mini-Boss

@MrBionic: I agree... most 'gamers' seem to just want to buy a game and not have to actually play it, let the game play for itself... it's a pity... but then again i'm a VOOT player

60Hz

@DanteIX: Yeah, people still comlained until they finally managed to not cock up the controls for GTA IV.

InsidiousTuna

Learning to use the Skate sticks to great effect was one of the most rewarding videogame experiences I've ever had. I think Bionic Command will do just fine- there's nothing wrong with needing to learn how to play a videogame.

InsidiousTuna

@InsidiousTuna: The skate controls were amazing. I remember when i realized that i had learned how to do hardflips and 360heels without even thinking about it i didn't stop smiling for like 2 days.

silkysm00th

Other than a few select Alex Kidd games.. i have never had this issue with a video game. Ever. I am willing to bet that it takes me, max, 10 minutes to turn into a swinging bastard. Maybe not perfect it .. but it get it down good enough that i don't pits death instantly.

Here is the thing .. it's a swinging game where they are making you look where you aim to swing. Spiderman doesn't care... hell.. in the first one you could swing from the fucking sky. I believe what they are trying to do with bionic here is really give you that feeling of movement as you have to actually look for your next grapple point while your swinging instead of just KNOWING that you'll be able to stick to something. I dig the idea... and like i said ... what the hell is a matter with you people? I mean shit, i'm 24... i know i'm getting older.. but when i start talking about controls in a video game like my dad does? "I just don't get it ... it's movin to fast .. a-cha-cha-cha" .. i'm hanging up my ps3.

Seriously.

silkysm00th

If you watched him and said "Wow I can't wait to get that good" then the difficulty will be fine.

If its so hard they can't get it down yet, then the controls need much work.

Thats how I see it anyway. I don't mind difficult as long as the rewards are there (ie multiplayer) where the skills pay off.

bayn

The idea is that controllers should be learned and used in certain ways is understandable. BUT it suffices to say that if the control scheme was unintuitive then it is poor craftsmanship.

Yes some things take time to get. But unless they are gotten within 15 minutes there usually is some problem to the controls, but too many people assume that this is just the "learning" part of the game, and that they will get better with expertise and time. The problem is however that your time and effort would've been a different story had the controls been easy to use and you would've enjoyed the time much more with it than if the controls were poorly implemented. From this point onwards you can argue about the depth of the game... is it there with exceedingly complex or convoluted controls? Maybe... but I will tell you one thing, controls do not make for depth in a game (at least not always), game design does. For example depth in a FPS game is getting head shots, while this is a simple idea it adds much more to focus on. Even the whole idea of different body parts having different ratios of damage incursion is meaningful. The controls on a FPS however isn't too important to create depth in a game, mouse + keyboard, dual analog, wiimote + nunchuk, these HARDLY define depth of a FPS game.

pyropetey

Personally i think it shouldnt be a problem learning how to master the mechanics before mastering the game.

Also if you dont enjoy learning the game, you probably wont enjoy the real game in the first place.

In most fighting games you must master your characters and then master the mechanics to be considered good at the game. The same pretty much applies for bionic commando i guess

lazychi

Shouldn't the grappling hook be assigned to the L button? That's what would make sense to me. Hopefully you can change it. However, I like a good challenge, something that most games nowadays don't have. Psi-Ops was confusing at first, but once you got used to it, you could do some crazy-awesome stuff. Same with Devil may cry, Dead Rising, and most other Capcom games. Just because the controls aren't exactly the same as every other game you've played doesn't mean that they're bad.

Placentasaurus

Waggling our way to somewhat satisfying game-play may be what is considered the norm in video games today, but there is something to be said about mastering a difficult control scheme and laying waste to your opponents as a result. I'm all for intuitive controls, in fact, I'm not sure that Bionic Commando isn't intuitive (haven't played it..), but just takes maybe 2 hours to have a solid grasp of gameplay mechanics. And why the hell not? Can't a game be hard to figure out? I know its all about getting to everyone who is not a gamer these days, but I and I think other people will agree with me, enjoy being tossed around until I whip into shape.

I'll be damned if for the rest of my gaming career I spend my time sailing through games like nothing. Screw with the conventions and confuse me.

wef

I'd also like to say that while some games may be built on the mechanic of NEEDING TO LEARN a control scheme they really aren't.

Take for example a fighter... say street fighter (lets do the old school ones so you don't parry :P) Whats block? back. Any punch and kick is mapped to a button. Is that intuitive? Yeah moving back you dont wanna get hit so you block, you wanna damage the enemy so you kick and punch but respectively hitting the input buttons.

Getting into specials now. Why are they so hard to do? Is it a fault of the control scheme? No its actually the only possible and natural extension of the control scheme. Adding 1 extra button to do every special is stupid, and the game strives for a simplistic setting, but the concept is hard to "do" so yes there is a learning period here but I'll get back to this point later.

Lastly we have combos, doing things in patterns so that we get more damage off. Firstly IS part of the depth of a game? Yes actually it is. Combos are patterned inputs of punches and kicks and specials. By doing something in combination you achieve more damage and are cooler so to speak. But this has nothing to do with the fact that the controls are hard to learn or anything, the pattern is maybe hard to learn but it was never integral to the game, in fact the entire game can be spent fighting without combinations and can be quite fun too (smash bros is an excellent example) especially for beginners (nowadays its quite the opposite as beginners see what pros do and would to emulate them but never really hitting the peak and getting frustrated).

It goes to show that once you've mastered the primary techiniques you are there to simply combine them to better your game and therein lies the depth. Control schemes are simple and intuitive requiring nothing more than just knowing what they do to execute them. Depth comes from utilizing the already intuitive controls and finessing them. At this point I'd like to bring out that many high level fighting games is about 'poking' which is depth through the strategy of getting a free hit off and maybe extending into a combo, a mind game.

Now did you really need to learn that? (ha ha ha)

pyropetey

Just look at the RE 1, 2, and 3 controls. When did those sound like a good idea? This is surprising because the RE4 controls were good, and DMC's controls were smooth also.

mistake

Actually for a game like this I think harder controls will actually add to the experience. When you do this amazing swing combo across the city you'll actually feel like you're accomplishing something, not just holding down a button and pointing a joystick.
That was my major gripe with Assassin's Creed. With that game sure it looked like I was accomplishing something my doing this death defying jump and scaling a huge tower, but really I was just pointing a joystick and holding a trigger.

omfg_its_dally

Well now we know what we've known since they show that video with horrible and boring gameplay, this will suck so bad that it'll get a 7.5 and below score.

This game is trash save this to your hard drive to save me the I told you so.

potohead1

If the game is tough to master I would like them to give me the option to customize my controls. That way I feel a more comfortable in the learning process.

Gunloc

Now... I'm talking about a Wii game here... but all the same...

RE4 on Wii was maddening at first - and then I got used to it and it became about four times as fun as the other analog versions. But I guess that's how it goes with a lot of Wii games.

And a lot of games in general. There will always be a slight learning curve, on the controls in particular.

Then again, there's always that fine line between 'hideous controls' and learning curve.

Hoping this is the latter... it looks fun.

sir_carrot

Good gaming design mandates a learning curve built into the game -- it can have difficult controls to master, but the difficulty needs to be built up from easy at first to hard later. I think skilled controls are a great thing, but if you don't teach your players how to use them, most of them will miss out because they'll be way too frustrated.

Did anyone else play the Too Human demo? The controls took a few minutes to get used to, but they seem to make sense. With different controls like that, you can't expect the player to adapt immediately.

I hope what was demoed at E3 wasn't the very beginning of the game.

akruble

"Wow I suck,"

Good, that means the control scheme is unique and well-fitted to 3D swinging...which, if it was really analogous to current TPS controls...well I'd be pretty concerned.

Snake726

You can't fault a game for the shitty environment that even the current E3 still is.

Demaar

This is a sad article IMO, well maybe not the article itself but the mis-titling...

15 minutes of play time, and you suck at it, so the game has control issues? Come on... 'How long do I have to wait'? Wow, you dont have to wait, you have to play for more then half an hour to actually start getting the controls. It just takes some thinking a bit, and some playing a bit, and bang you get it, and from there you can advanced.

Then again it takes longer for some, I hear journalists suck at games sometimes; no wonder the off screen video captures of someone playing are always horrible. :P

Sentry

@You Cannot Untoast: I tend to agree that some learning how to play the game is good. On the other hand, if I want to swing from stuff, why don't I just go play spider-man.
The combo system in that game looks pretty cool too.

Flynn_is_my_user

I think releasing a demo is the safe thing to do for the publisher.

Frampis

I don't really remember there being a huge learning curve for older games. If anything, the controls were a lot simpler. The challenge was in level design, number of enemies, and 1-hit kills. If a game controls poorly, it controls poorly. Period.

captmattsparrow

In reading a lot of the comments above, I believe that in order to keep the casual and the hard-core satisfied, you have to do the following:

1. ) 'Awesome' Entry
Simplifying controls isn't always the best way to go, but keeping the initial experience an 'awesome' one is key. You do this with proper encounter and level design. If you have controls that might take some time to master, make the entry level experience something that can be completed by the expert gamer in mere moments while the n00b can try the same area over and over safely. Bionic Commando example: Instead of killing you and throwing you down 'death-pits', why not create a small gap the player can practice their jump over with a platform below to catch them if they fall so they may easily retry until they are comfortable. Instantly killing someone will not win you 'awesome' points. Making the experience a good one and then ramping appropriately is key.

2.) Actually Have a Road to Mastery
Why some fighting games (Smash bros, Soul Calibur, etc.)have such a huge following is that anyone can jump in and do some cool stuff right off the bat. But then with practice of timing and mechanics (Side dodges in Smash and Guard Breaks in Soul) you can have advanced play that the hardcore can dedicate themselves to mastering. Replay value? You damn well better believe it.

Bottom line?

If a game expects you to master something immediately just to play the damn game... there is something wrong. It was used in the arcades to suck the money out of people. In the arcade itself, it was to show off how good you are... but to the people playing at home on their TVs craving some entertainment for the evening, you can't expect them to master something without assuming their existing gamer skill. That's like releasing a Hollywood blockbuster drama about open heart surgery ("My Broken Heart... For Reals" Directed by Michael Bay) and assuming everyone in the audience has completed medical school.

It's just stupid to make a game with a steep learning curve and shitty level/encounter design. The easier the 'in' the more slack you are allowed to have in the other two departments... but in the example of Ninja Gaiden II, there is little thought put in to the encounters. Then of course there is the face that the Level designers and camera programmers never spoke one damned word to each other.

But I digress... Bionic Commando needs to do more focus testing.

The end.

BrianOnTheRocks

The capcom developers should play sega's gun valkyrie for the original xbox, then talk about "skill-based" controls. Usually that's an euphemism for poor design that punishes the player. The skill should be in the situations that pop up in gameplay, not in having to hold multiple buttons and click the control stick down to dash, or having to master a tiny window to hit a button press not to fall into a pit.

raiseplease

maybe you are just getting old and can't play games like you used to????? don't worry it happens to everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

freespeech

I have a feeling some of the posters here should stick to waving the WiiMote.

J-ZILLA

I noticed that when my g f or father play they have a bigger difficulty learning the controls of a game whilst me and my friend GMM easily learn a games control without looking them up. I think that we are just getting so used to certain control schemes that it just feels like today all games are so easy to learn whilst they aren't. We just already learned most of the controls and only need to learn some things that divert or add to the generic control schemes like certain alt. fire modes.

soulofaqua

I think they may have talked about you on the Giant Bombcast...

FireBurger

Games should be easy to learn hard to master. Every time.

Frologic

This must be the guy that Ryan Davis was talking about on the Giant bomb cast that couldn't understand the basics of a swing engine. some people just shouldn't play some games this guy sounds like one of them. hope you enjoy your Wii

psych01

I prefer to just use the I win button and not play the game at all ;-).

Seriously; As mentioned before games use to have a long learning curve back in the day, and some games still do (ie galactic civ 2). IMO its far better to have a challange in learning the games mechanics, that way when you pull something amazing off its twice as rewarding. "look what I can do!"

stupidjason

Every current game has a learning curve that the players are expected to grasp. Whether it is 5 minutes for titles such as N+ or 30 minutes up to an hour for GTA IV and Bioshock. No developer can except someone to grab a controller and master the entire control scheme in 10 seconds unless they are demoing the newest Frogger game. Every person is different and their learning curve will vary as well.

It boils down to if you care enough about the game to invest the time necessary for you to become comfortable enough that you aren't concentrating on controls. Does the story motivate you enough to continue? Great. If not you will say that the control is too complex or it doesn't feel right. Any game can be mastered if the player invests the time. Even games that control horribly, it can be tolerated if the person playing the game is entertained.

vunna

PC bitches

zaagis