It bugs me that you can't opt to make the game free. Considering that some indie developers (some of the best, in fact) prefer to release their games free for all to enjoy.

The peer review system bothers me a bit as well. What is inappropriate? Will certain themes be unusuable?

HikariOblivion

Sorry for the double post but after looking at XNA's site, the current approved stuff for the beta makes me lose track of the point.

[catalog.xna.com]

This is a screensaver? Is this honestly going to be 200 MS points. If so its as pointless as some of the movie gamerpics that go up there.

Seriously, they ruined what I dreamed of... I'm not a cheapskate but with the arcade games that go up theres tonnes of good ones i'd buy over games created in XNA, I'd love to play free XNA games. The few amazing ones that you find from XNA such as The Dishwasher really do deserve money but a screensaver honestly doesn't.

flukielukie

God damnit, I wanted the bloody games to be free.

So this means no games will be free at all, So much for the YouTube of games I was hoping for... Maybe just maybe theres some devs out there that just want advertising in they're games and want it out there for free? Can't they host it on they're own servers or something? Besides they have to pay a hefty membership just to be able to make a game for the 360.

If we were allowed free games then that would easily be a nice way for them to get at the PS3. Im not saying they should all be free, I just wish some were. Heck even make ita perk of paying for gold, since with the PC getting all the 360's features for free hogging off OUR game invite servers that we pay for.

There is next to no reason for paying for gold, I still will because I love it but its just bs.

flukielukie

@eastx: They are defniitely getting a tad thick on he ground, especially so early in the week. Did we miss a banhammer monday this week because we're between KoC's?

cynopt

@Arsenicberyllium: Trolling is for the weak.

eastx

Guys,

For the record, Dishwasher is built on XNA but it will be a commercial game (read: It'll be on the marketplace, NOT in the Community Games tab)

The_EE_God

Where the hell is Dishwasher then!

chenry

Will the peer review tell you they don't want the your game because they already have one of the same type available? ;)

Nah, I really think this is good step, even if Microsofts agenda here is obvious (hint, hint, do not learn to use free and open development methods, use DirectX). We'll see what the participation and reception ends up being, hopefully this really engages people and grows into healthy community, lot's of great things can grow from there.

ara

@Arsenicberyllium: er...I don't get it

excel_excel

@Arsenicberyllium: Ooo...INCINERATED! You are the burn master!

Either way though it's going to be quite intersting to see what user created content XNA can generate.

And from what i saw of DishWasher it looks to be my first purchase so far >.>;;;

Also i found this brief interview with the guy whos making it. I really like how it just ends off on such a weird note XD.

Either way this means more of us random people can get our foots into the doors of the gaming business. I really like this though. PSN, Wii Ware, and now XNA. Your choice of 3 systems to publish your stuff to! I wonder if other older game creators are all like..

"BACK IN MY DAY TO GET MY FOOT THROUGH THE DOOR! I had to run a 3 week marathon of Pac-Man and only survive on R.C. cola and grapefruits!" You younguns don't have what it takes today. *SNAP* Ohhh...my 20MB Hard Drive..."

Or just do the ol' Beta Testing until you can get a hook up. I also like the fact that the gaming industry is really starting to get more...how should i say...::rubs chin:: user friendly with the gamers. There wasn't that many user creation games back on the SNES/Genesis days. You did have Mario Paintfor the SNES. And this one Drawing game for the Genesis that escapes me. It was a fun game none the less. But now...we can make our own creatures in spore. Our own levels in Gary's Mod or Little Big Planet. And now all of us who used to play these games back then can create our own and share out ideas with the rest of the world ^_^. Anyways...i'll keep an eye on XNA and most definetly on Dishwasher.

s0nlxaftrsh0ck

Dishwasher was the one i was most impressed with, it will be a first day purchase when its available.

nip

I was really interested in trying out some stuff on the 360, but I'm not going to dink around with it when it costs $100 a year :-/

zegota

I really liked Dishwasher Samurai from what I've played of it so far, I have a lot of faith in the XNA games. Also, seventy percent is a very generous amount for these guys to receive. I'm content with the pricing as well...

So far I'm impressed.

theuglyteradon

@The_EE_God: Yup. I played some co-op Schizoid on the weekend and it was REALLY fun.

Crankyhobo

@Archaotic: Why? Schizoid is built on XNA and I think it's pretty darn good.

The_EE_God

@Graywing: Was about the rant the same thing on point 1.

Why should size dictate value I could shove a cool video on the front of a Pong clone that may be an awesome pong game but only worth 200 points despite the video pushing it into the next bracket. Let the price be put on the seller to decide but a max and min price is fine. Adjusting the store front commission by size is also fine though as larger games use more bandwidth and maybe that is the reason for this pricing and maybe these are minimums not requirement based on size. But I have seen some amazing games that used little space and some crap ones that used tons.

Konchu

@Graywing: I assume it's due to server and bandwidth costs, but it would make sense to reward quality.

Be easier to tell what's good and not, too.

Krondonian

@Alarik: Do you seriously think people are not going to comment on quality of the gameplay?

You give people more credit than I do.

opt2not

@Krondonian: Good point! I'm not really objecting to it, but I still just find it an odd choice to reward quantity instead of quality.

But on the other side, if I don't optimize my game, I probably will go over the maximum of 150mb with ease..

Graywing

@CockroachMan: theirs a lot that will be crap that wont get attention maybe a little... but their are a few from the first contest and in the upcoming ocntest that stand to make a bucket load of cash off of doing something they like.

phantam

"Xbox LIVE when Community Games launches this holiday"

thats the most exciting part of the releases that wasnt mentioned here..... This means it will probably released along side the new dashboard which is awesome.

phantam

I'm going to make "Chubby Princess" for 360 !!! LOLz..

ysleiro

Not bad for the developers.. but I don't see much people giving attention to those games. I'm not saying that they will be bad games, there's a lot of independent stuff in the web made in Flash that are fantastic, but most of them are free.

CockroachMan

lol its not punishment its to cover costs if you feel your game is worth more you push in some bloat files and you can bump your price.

phantam

That is pretty cool.

juggy4805

@Graywing: For the size thing, it works both ways.

If your game is small enough to fit under, it'll have a lower price point than many games. This may increase sales and be positive for the developer.

If you want more cash per game sold, just stop optimizing the assets, put in some lossless audio and you'll soon go over the 50mb limit.

If your game can't fit under 50mb, then you've got no option. But rules are rules.

Krondonian

Ah, I'm glad they finally announced this. But I still got two problems with it,

1) You are being "punished" for optimizing the file size of your assets with this pricing method.. (my dream build play entry at this moment is roughly 20mb smaller when I optimize it.. but its still the same game)

2) Only available for a few countries... again..

Graywing

@Arsenicberyllium: The late mention of Sony in your post makes me think you could care less about XNA, especially its release date. Everything gets delayed. Troll somewhere else.

JoJitsu4u

@opt2not: Yes, the peer review process ensures they are within the submission guidelines, there's nothing in what you posted that disagrees with me.

Microsoft has nothing to do with the approval process.

From the FAQ on XNA creators club at [creators.xna.com]

"Why does my game have to be peer-reviewed? Why can't I just post it?
Peer reviewers help creators write better games, and protect game players from experiencing highly offensive or malfunctioning games. Peer reviewers will reject your game if:

- Your game contains prohibited content, which is content not allowed on Xbox LIVE services
- You misrepresent what's in the game play or in the promotional materials for the game
- The promotional content for your game ( for example, the banner or title) is not appropriate for all ages on Xbox LIVE Marketplace
- The game crashes, it has too many bugs, or it is technically defective in some way"

There is no mention of any other quality metric as a reason for failing the peer review process.

Alarik

Cant wait for Dishwasher!

70% is very fair, lets hope people make some good games :)

ichiban1081

This is neato

@okenny :):

Okenny :) censoring himself!? what has this world come too!

D-Sovereignty

@Talleh:
I hear ya, in theory. Yes, those extra 150+ MB means nothing on Microsoft's behemoth servers, but perhaps it will encourage developers to try to keep it under 50 MB, so more people will buy it.

@dh4645:
I wouldn't complain if I got a quarterly check. I think Microsoft is being generous with the service first off, and the 70% (give 'r take) revenue the game makes secondly. Quarterly would be no biggie to me.

Lazlo

@Arsenicberyllium: Did you just have a conversation with Microsoft...right here?!

Kanik

@Arsenicberyllium: I think you may have just won the MVC award for that post :)

okenny :)

I noticed a typo: According to the link provided, they may take 10-30%, not 20%.

For the developer's sake, I hope that doesn't happen often.

I'm still looking forward to supporting unique talents, though!

Arttemis

Hmmm...Well, well, Microsoft.

Seems you keep making all these big promises, but they keep getting delayed?

I mean, when did we first hear that XNA games were going to be out on the 360?
Yeah, that's right. Back before the 360 was even out.

And then you dump on Sony for not having Home out after a year?

Who's the lying hypocrite here?

Arsenicberyllium

@Alarik: You are incorrect, peer-review does not mean peer-bug-testing. The link to the official XNA site says it all:
"Will Microsoft decide which Community Games are published?

No. While games must be created within the submission guidelines, this new offering truly democratizes game development and distribution by placing the tools and processes in the hands of our Xbox LIVE gaming community."

Key statement: Democratizes game development

I'm so glad they're finally getting their act together and implementing the "Youtube of video games", but with the incentive to make some cash, we'll definitely have a strengthening of bedroom/garage/basement game developers trying to get their name and skills out on the market.

opt2not

Considering almost every XNA beta game we got was over 50mb, I find the 200 point number a bit misleading.

KingBroly

Does anybody else think that it's sorta....not good, to charge based on the size? I don't remember paying any extra to see Dark Knight because it was 2 1/2 hours long, compared to a 85 minute other movie.

Talleh

A check once a quarter seems kinda gay.

I would want a check at least monthly.

dh4645

@Solid_hedgehog: Ha ha :) Wanna go drink later brother?

okenny :)

Good for them! I'm glad that Microsoft is giving small time developers a chance to have their hard-work shown to the masses. I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of games fresh talent can come up with.

Lazlo

I'm interested to see if they will allow free demos of the games. I'm assuming so but there's nothing in the FAQ stating so either way.

Does anyone else know?

okenny :)

Another victory for Microsoft and it's loyal fans. Good for them.

Solid_hedgehog

No release date for the Dishwasher yet? Fail. Nothing else out of XNA has impressed me in the slightest.

Archaotic

70%? Wow not bad.

Garo

@RET_Ghost: Until MS exercises their own "discretion" and starts taking that additional 10-20% out of everything.

TRT-X

@opt2not: Unless they've changed it, the peer reviewing information explicitly states that you are not reviewing whether a game is 'good' or not. You are reviewing to see that it is free of bugs and matches the content warning ratings the creator has given it.

Quality is supposed to be controlled by community ratings, I think.

Alarik

Nice! I've played a few games built in XNA (I think). Only a few little ones but interesting nonetheless.

For example [www.kokoromi.org] . There's some interesting stuff there, and the upcoming Fez looks really sweet too.

Hooray for indie gaming!

Krondonian

Step 4: Profit

KaneRobot

Cool, that's more generous than I expected.

JN64Lover

I better start crackin at my game ideas and puttin them in code for money.

rickyyo

@opt2not: You scare me :(

okenny :)

I think they would only give you from 70 to 99 cents a year. :p

zkotaku

@NitrousO: I think that's what peer review and an active community is for.

okenny :)

@NitrousO: They did, it's called peer-reviewing. So how about "you" do something to weed out the flood of horrible games by voting on the games you deem as being higher in quality.

opt2not

peer review and a 70% share?

Damn.

brokenscope

Hells Motherf*cking Yeah!!!

WOW... I even censored myself.

This just made my day :D

okenny :)

70%? That's a lot better than what I was expecting.

Heliophage

I hope they do something to weed out the flood of horrible games that will bury the good ones through sheer numbers.

NitrousO

Sounds fair, I think. That's more than the normal XBLA game developers get.

EvilFiek

70% isn't too bad of a share.

RET_Ghost

So, you can be in the club for $99 per year, yet have the potential of having every single one of your games be rejected for that paid year?.

Will they give refund for the club membership if XNA does not publish the game?, or will they let it slide and at least publish one of your game for the club fees?.

Who are the peer reviewers?, is it just a random website with an algorithm to predict at least a potential seller?

PsycheE

Fun thing is I get the tools free and a free years membership to the XNA creators club. Gotta love being a student.

Odin

@XbhaskarX: You look at the elements you are in charge of such as space and time which are all directly dependent or indirectly dependent on your bandwidth and your server space and it seems like a more realistic metric then your idea of the "warm and fuzzy" feeling which can't be determined till well after the fact. Perhaps you feel like your idea may be valid because people don't need to play games to rate them therefore price can be determined by a popularity contest well-before the game is released; it's just that from where I'm standing, MS's idea seems far less idiotic then some ill thought ones floating around the ether.

okenny :)

Basing the price on game size instead of on something like user ratings is an idiotic idea.

XbhaskarX

@JoJitsu4u: @eastx: It's not quite trolling.

I'm rather excited for the XNA game service, but it doesn't sit right with me that everybody gives Microsoft a free pass on their massive delays of their service while other companies get slammed for them at every possible opportunity.

Sony gets slammed for delaying Home, Nintendo gets insulted for not finishing a decent online service, or any of their games on time, and yet we all give Microsoft a free pass on this?
I don't like it.

Arsenicberyllium

@HikariOblivion:
Considering you're paying $100 a year for the service... would you really want to publish them for free?

Odin

Oh, and I bet that within a week there'll be at least twenty bejeweled clones with enough dummy files that push to the 800 point mark.

HikariOblivion

@Odin: I'm not saying they shouldn't have the option to charge, but, being I watch the indie community, there's a few artists (well, the main I can think of is Japanese and probably wouldn't be into this), who make fantastic stuff, and who believe that getting it to as many people as possible IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN PAYING MONEY.

Should the option for charging be there? Of course. It's only fair, and there are those who make a living off indie game development. But there are those who want to get something out.

Actually, you know what my biggest worry is? Demos. There's not a bit of information as to how those are done. If they are. Not only that those who DO make a living off indie development might want a roof a little higher than 800 points.

The lack of freedom of pricing gets to me, is what I'm trying to say. No option to make the game free, size mattering more than content. There's a potential recipe for trouble here.

Does anyone know what the content guidelines are? I'm hoping they're liberal on less mainstream themes.

HikariOblivion

Wow. If this holds up (I just feel there's fine print somewhere that isn't being read), it sounds like a good deal for gamers and, especially, game creators. Have been interested in this from the beginning, but now my interest is peaked. Don't let us down, MS (or small, independent game developers)!

Sloopydrew

@HikariOblivion: The demo option was enabled on the few games that saw a preview release in spring.

muu

@Arsenicberyllium:

Of course, he is just flat out wrong. This is in part though because Microsoft uses some confusing acronyms and terms that can be hard on the public.

The XNA he is referring to that was announced in 2004 at GDC was the toolset. This has been in use by game developers since, guess what, before the 360 came out in an effort to help with 360 development. This is why it is so easy for developers to create games on the 360 because it works as advertised. Applications like PIX is a godsend.

What most people refer to as XNA is a branding confusion. It is better to call it GSE or Game Studio Express. It was first announced in 2006 and came out in August that same year.

Aprotosis

Oh, and something that needs to change is the "if your game didn't make enough money in a given quarter there is no payout." I really hope that that means they'll just accumulate the money quarter to quarter until the minimum is met and NOT that MS gets a little something-something. People buy games to support a developer, and if they can't trust that it is going to the developer that is bad news indeed.

BigWeather

My thoughts:

I'm disappointed that I can't charge nothing for my games. As for recouping my $99/yr, I'm not worried.

I'm disappointed that the price is 200 for 50mb. Size seems a very odd way to do it. Most of the best games ever released are less than 50mb. Why not let the creator set the worth (with a maximum cap if needed)?

I'm hoping they offer a demo capability. This is crucial since I can't set the game to free and I don't want anyone to feel ripped off if they don't like my game.

Despite those slight disappointments, though, I am super-excited about this initiative and really appreciate the very hard work the XNA team has done to make this happen.

BigWeather

Ok, I read more on the XNA boards and want to correct some things.

Games less than 50mb can charge 200, 400, or 800. Games larger than 50mb can charge 400 or 800.

There will be a trial capability.

The XNA folks are following up on my issue of not meeting the minimum payout. They are on the ball, even at four in the morning! =)

BigWeather

@muu:
@BigWeather:

Okay, that's good. I'm wondering about how the trial bit works though, if there's limits or whatnot on what it can be.

Call me a pessimist, but once you have guidelines, one has to wonder exactly how deep they go.

HikariOblivion

Some of you guys got the size thing all wrong :) You can totally, 100% do a 5 meg game for 800 points. What you can't do is a 145 meg game for 200 points. Your game has to be under 50 megs to be sold at 200 points, there is no lower limit on game size for price point, it's a maximum limit.

GloP

This is the best news I have heard all week. I didn't realise XNA Game Studio was free either, I'm downloading now. Prepare to hear about a slew of incredible games once I submit some...

headcrab

@BigWeather:
Nice to know about the 200, 400, 800 option for under 50 MB games (or else there'd be a strange glut of 51 MB games).

I would understand why they require a price, as MS wants their cut for running the service. It's also good for the developer who wants to make a living off this. It's very hard to compete with something that's free. Just look at XBLA: Aegis Wing downloads are still going strong, handily beating out the likes of Ikaruga, Triggerheart, and Omega 5 week over week. An 800pt game amidst a pool of free games will get buried; whereas an 800pt game among 200pt games will get a fighting chance. Once the consumer crosses the barrier of free to paid, even a modest fee of 200pts ($2.50) will awaken his critical-eye, netting the 800pt content a better look.

As for the XNA creators club fee...for $99/year you basically get an all-you-can-eat buffet of the XNA games on the service, right? Might not be a bad idea if you're the type that buys a lot of XBLA stuff.

kftgr

@HikariOblivion:
What a trial is will vary from game to game. The XNA API will let the developer determine whether the game is a trial or not and close down functionality in whichever way they see fit.

BigWeather

@kftgr:
The $99 gives you the ability to submit games to the 360 service as well as deploy / debug on the 360 during development. It also lets you do peer review of games being submitted to the service, so in a way it is like limited time access, I suppose. But I suspect that once it is on the service even CC members will need to pay to play the non-trial versions of the games.

As a non-CC member, you get free access to the service and trials of games that have gone through the submission process and been approved for release. You will, however, have to pay to unlock the full versions.

BigWeather