@david78: Takes time to change mentalities and abandon the old ways. We are what we are, a multicultural group of nations that strech back for milenia, thus we are not as easy to "come together" as the USA were, we don't even have a common languange. I know it wont be easy (that would be naive), I said I would like to see it happen in my liftime, somewhere in between now and 2078. I don't think ill live past the 100 years mark... unlike the United European Federation, wich will live forever! (Maybe!)

Shiryu

@Shiryu: The UK has a million times more chance of joining the Euro than that ever happening. No country in the EU would agree to it, even if they are pro eu.

david78

I would really like to know what the british board of film classification has got to do with the euro?
Also i think northern island refers to northern ireland? Whatever is going on there i havent a clue, even though i visit weekly.I`m sure it will come as a shock to those residents there too when i tell them this.
All in all i think there`s a lot of confused people posting here.heh

UFO

@david78: One coin, One constitution, One United States of Europe. I hope to see it in my lifetime. "In varietate concordia".

Shiryu

@stoneagedan: That would make sense.

david78

@david78:
I think he means the Repbulic of Ireland, who jsut rejected the Treaty of Lisbon (temporarily scuppering any EU constituion). NI is realtively trouble-free at present, compared to the past thirty years.

stoneagedan

I find their lack of faith disturbing...

Shiryu

@Krondonian: Why should we adopt the Euro? To put it simply, it's not needed. And whats Northern Island? Surely the problems are at the lowest level fir decades?

david78

Why would you not believe it?

david78

@Antiterra: They've been talking about it for years, but I don't see it happening any time soon. Especially so with all stuff happening in Northern Island now.

I just wish the country will get over the national identity issues and go for the Euro.

Krondonian

All I can say is that I'll believe it when I see it.

Krondonian

So... does this means the British won't be adopting the euro anytime soon?

Antiterra

Hopefully the delays won't happen. Goddamit.

Jagzthebest

@stoneagedan: nope. it's 18 plus and unrelated (e.g. "making of") video footage. Trust me.

ThursdayNext

@arstal: And the BBFC will care because? They don't get revenue share, they're government funded. Perhaps in future you'll engage your brain before clicking submit? Probably not though.

ThursdayNext

Wow, we all pounced on the ban count. It's ban-Monday at Kotaku, and we've got our banning statistics in easy-to-access database format. We all looked under "B" for BBFC and found the score. Yay us.

@ThursdayNext:
I think at present companies are obliged to submit anything they consider 15+ to the BBFC, then the BBFC decides if they warrant the 18 cert. I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but a significant chunk of that are considered by the BBFC to not warrant certification (ie. they're <15).

stoneagedan

Carmageddon is one of the greatest games of all time (the original).

I had lots of fun reading last months EDGE "Making of" Carmageddon. Took me all these years to finnaly come to the conclusion that, yes indeed, the guys who did the game are complete nutjobs. Bless them!

Mandatory read:
[www.next-gen.biz]

Shiryu

@nineself:
Really? They've banned relatively little - Carmageddon, Manhunt and Manhunt 2 are the ones that spring to mind, and the former two were both overturned following some revisions. Manhunt 2's ban may well have irked gamers, but we got GTA IV with no cuts and no delays (as far as I'm aware..).
The BBFC seesm to do a relatively good job. Their symbls are better-known than those of PEGI, and it carries more official clout in the UK than the PEGI scheme.
The Byron recommendations are for the most part pragmatic and sound, and a further involvement of the BBFC is likely to change little other than box art, if their statement is correct. By the end of it, it should shut up media whiners like the Daily Mail about the horror of violent games going to young children - it'll be clearly labelled by the proper authority, and they're unlikely to censor anything but the most graphic and gratuitous of violence (i.e. Manhunt 3). Personally, I'm in favour of the BBFC certifying the releases. It makes no difference to me as a 25 year old, but it should help parents decide whether a game is suitable or not.

stoneagedan

Can't you guys just buy the French versions instead? One way to punish the BBFC is with the wallet.

arstal

@nineself: They're a hundred times better than a government run scheme. Their game banning record stands at 2 (both overturned? Have we got Manhunt2?)and they're one of the more liberal film ratings boards, allowing more and more through than ever before, an act that's actually put them under great scrutiny. The BBFC are probably the main reason you can play half the stuff you do, I'm damn sure if the alternative happened and it was the government you'd be lucky to get your hands on Bioshock et al. And if you're alternative is "Ban censorship" then you're kidding yourself, because that's never happening.

TearsandScreams

@nineself: The BBFC has only banned two games to my recollection. Carmageddon, which was later released with green blood and Manhunt 2. In both instances the games encouraged players to kill for no reason other than to increase their score. The BBFC described Manhunt 2 as "callous" stating that this attitude was why it was banned. Provided games developers can write a story that necessitates a degree of violence there is no need to fear the censors axe.

More to the point is the increased cost. As it is all games that carry a BBFC rating need: Different disc art, different packaging, different posters, different tv ads. At the moment this only applies to 18+ rated games and those that feature video footage unrelated to the progression of the game story.

If this extends to all games rated 12+, you can expect to see prices increase in the UK to cover all the extra marketing costs, and games aren't exactly cheap in the UK now.

ThursdayNext

Sup importing!

marksinclair

@nineself:

That was a troll, wasn't it?

I hope for your sake it was, so many factual inaccuracies in one paragraph must be a deliberate troll.

Could you please cite some examples of their banning and hack and slash censorship please?

X201

@UFO: Haha, I love this thread, it's turned into a full blown Euro-zone discussion without any warning. I'm off to post on eurobloggers.com about how great metal gear solid is. :)

ThursdayNext

@OkayOctane: Obviously, the God-Emepror of Europe. I would tkae upon my self this prestigious job, but lets face it, im tied as is with my TI work life.

On a more down-to-earth-diplomacy-rules note, I assume the Great European Federal Empire woudl be rule by a diplomatic corps of every states representative. Maybe we coudl elect per country a person to this role. Time will tell, I guess.... Long live Zeon! Erm, ops, sorry, long live the U.S.E.!

PS: It really is a painto convert GPB to EUR everytime I buy something out of Amazon.co.uk... just putting it out there, not really a critic or anything.

Shiryu

Given that the BBFC are incredibly susceptible to public opinion, have shown an shocking ignorance of interactive entertainment over the years and seem to see themselves as the guardians of British Morality (aka ban a lot of things to please the red tops). I am not just worried about them delaying the release of games but committing brutal acts of hack and slash censorship, or just outright banning any game that contains even the most mild of challenging material.

Burn the BBFC. It's our only hope.

nineself

@OkayOctane: @
Hiring more employees perhaps?

david78

The European Union will never be the US:

It has a very large democratic deficit - the parliament has next to no powers, and civil servants (commissioners) are the ones who propose legislation!

A lack of a common language makes common cultural identity difficult. All we have is the Champions League and Eurovision.

So please don't ask for a Federal Europe, just to make your Civilization scenarios easier to create, if you don't live here. It really enforces this view that the EU is one big happy democratic family, when it is not as an organisation.

That a post containing the phrase "Northern Island" meaning Northern Ireland, meaning in actuality the Republic of Ireland can get a "recommended" star next to it confuses AND ANGERS ME!

Anyway, on topic, with the way a lot of companies release games, you could have a 2 month review period and not impinge on a European release date: get the BBFC to review the US copy.

Chadders

@OkayOctane: I would run it. And I would call it...

'Mannycalavera'

Best. States. Ever.

Lukehmuse

@Shiryu: QUESTION: Who would run the United States of Europe?

I don't understand how the BBFC will be able to cope with rating EVERY game release in the UK PLUS every FILM release in the UK.

OkayOctane

Wait, so that means Microsoft expected to get an 18 for Mass Effect? That game's so tame, and the BBFC by far chose the correct rating, compared to PEGI and ESRB (WTF!? The sex scene wasn't exactly graphic).

And how come Guitar Hero 3 got rated 12? Surely that would never be an 18?

david78

@wild homes is weathering cephalopod trouble!:
The BBFC put a significant burden of the work on the Publisher: they have to collate the relevant cut scenes, video content and examples of gameplay and submit some sort of compilation. As far as I can tell from the BBFC website, they don't actually play the game. The onus is on the publisher to submit the material likely to offend, rather than the BBFC to find it.
Presumably, those who want to cheat and hide offensive material from the BBFC will be in trouble if it gets caught after retail. Otherwise, yeah, the review time will ahve to go up for sandbox games like GTA and Oblivion: it's difficult to play them in 8 days, let alone reivew, report and certify.

stoneagedan

@stoneagedan: I can live with that. Especially when it was properly researched, and I gave a pre-emptive example of exactly the point you are making. :)

ThursdayNext

@ThursdayNext:
From the Byron report:
"7.12 Video games with gross violence, criminal or sexual activity, human genitals, certain bodily functions, or games with linear film content that isn't integral to the game, have to go to the BBFC for a statutory classification before they can be released in the UK. This accounts for around 4% of games (ELSPA, 2007)."

You were right, my bad; they only submit of they expect an 18. However, they can get a PG, U, 12, or 15 on the basis of cinematic content, and some get 15 ratings if they've been submitted as potential 18 certificates by the publisher. So, if the publisher expects an 18, they submit, but may get a 15 out of it. So I was a little bit right too. Everyone's happy!

stoneagedan

To begin, I have no opinion about the necessity of the United Kingdom formally adopting the euro.

But I think the BBFC's response here is a bit silly. I certainly don't understand this as well as I ought, but if it currently takes, on average, eight days to review a title (and they only review titles rated 18+ or containing unrated video content) and suddenly they want to review all games containing material rated 12+ and all online games, why is not a reasonable assumption that by taking up that much greater workload the process will be slowed down considerably or the machinery of the BBFC will have to grow significantly? It seems to me like they're saying, we can mow one lawn in one hour, so if you give us ten lawns we'll mow them in one hour and that just doesn't make a lot of sense. Calling out the publishers like this was a dumb move, in my opinion.

wild homes is weathering cephalopod trouble!

@Lukehmuse:

You'll get my vote.

Dontdrop

@ThursdayNext: Of course that isn't to say that a game rated 18 by PEGI will get a BBFC 18 rating. Mass Effect for example is rated 18+ by PEGI, but only 12 by the BBFC.

ThursdayNext

@Shiryu: VIVA LA EUROPE!! Proveyour of delayed nintendo games and overpriced goods!

excel_excel

@david78:
"The work was classified '12' for some infrequent moderate sex references heard in lyrics to some of the songs. The sex references in GUITAR HERO III are implied rather than explicit, and their presence is covered by the BBFC's Guidelines at '12' which require that 'sexual activity may be implied. Sex references may reflect what is likely to be familiar to most adolescents but should not go beyond what is suitable for them'. "

From the BBFC themselves. Ironic point: music in the UK is not vetted by the BBFC or any other body, and there are no age restrictions. It's only in trouble if it falls foul of race hate laws (or similar)

stoneagedan

@david78:
Given it's subsequent rep. as a sodomy simulator, it was probably wise to submit it. Imagine the uproar if they didn't submit a gmae with a bona fide sex scene...

Guitar Hero may have been submitted for lyrical content, I can't think of anything else (although that's ironic, becuase music isn't covered by any decency laws).

stoneagedan

I don't really see the problem:

PEGI, BBFC and ESRB all require pretty similar things from developers anwyay.

As it stands there's no problem with packaging costs since copies made in the UK won't be used outside the UK anyway - there's a difference between US and UK box/disc/manual art.

Thirdly, the BBFC has a better record at leaving games 'unaltered' than the ESRB does - not sure about PEGI since, living in the UK, they don't rate our 18+ games. How many games have come out in the US/Canada and not had content that the EU has - e.g. The Witcher.

Duoae

"The BBFC's current average turnaround time for games classifications is eight calendar days. In terms of international comparisons, this is notably quick."

except it already takes months for them to get stuff to begin with...so why piss off the UK consumers by increasing that even longer?

demonknightinuyasha

@stoneagedan: Wow. Really? Haven't they learned anything from the ESRB's mistakes? I'd imagine that once they begin to review all 12+ and online titles we'd have six months, at most, before they miss something crucial and have to begin really playing the games themselves, and then the entire worry about the BBFC being the cause of further, serious delays will come to fruition.

wild homes is weathering cephalopod trouble!

@stoneagedan:

The BBFC do actually play the game to the maximum extent they can within the timeframe, in the event that this will not be the whole game they often gain codes and chats from the developers in order to pass quickly through the game and sample the maximum amount of content possible.

CanaryWundaboy

@ThursdayNext:

The point isn't to make the BBFC care, it's to make merchants care cause they're losing too much business.

From what I'm hearing, you guys on the censorship front don't have it that bad, outside of asinine anti-racism laws (which is common to Europe in general)

Governments will listen to businessmen complaining before private citizens complaining.

Please think a little more deeply before randomly flaming things you don't understand.

arstal

@david78: Ergh, sorry about that. Republic of Ireland I meant- (I pronounce Ireland and Island the same, so often mess up in typing).

As for the Euro, I just think it makes more sense to have one currency. Everything works fine now, but the difference between the currencies is menial, and it would be vastly easier not having to exchange every time I want to leave the damn country.

The Ireland comment was as per stoneagedan said. Sorry to cause confusion.

@Chadders: Hey, I'm surprised as anyone I have this star, but it's per commenter not comment. I have relatives in Ireland and just call it Northern Ireland as opposed to Republic of Ireland- it's easier. As for 'Island', well that was obviously a typo.

I need to take my anti-stupid pills. /off topic

Krondonian

@CanaryWundaboy:
Doh. Missed the comment about the full build! That's what I get for scanning the site too quickly.
Even with cheats, there's still a limit to how much gameplay you're going to get with an 8 day turnaround. If you look at a recent decision from the BBFC (try SHELLSHOCK 2: BLOOD TRAILS) then in the list of submitted materials they'll lsit the game, as well as, in this case, 52 cutscenes and 11 clips of contentious gameplay. It's going to be up to the publisher to mark those out, I would presume, otherwise the BBFC will have to play the whole thing, and thoroughly.
/goes to read website properly/

stoneagedan

@stoneagedan: The BBFC do play the games. One of my mates is a part time examiner at the BBFC and he gets to play a good many games ahead of release. The publishers usually submit the game, complete with debug and cheat codes, and a DVD reel of cut scenes etc. The reason they do that is that the BBFC's fees, which are its main source of funding, are related to the time it takes to undertake the review. The quicker they allow the BBFC to do its job, the cheaper it will be for them. They want to give the reviewer the easiest access to the material as possible.
The reason they want to play the game is to see it as the player sees it, and understand the context in which the material is presented. Context was really important in Manhunt, and is one of the reasons that the BBFC were so concerned about it. They take the same approach in films.

GusTavToo

I think the rock solid, infallible rating given to Manhunt 2 is a clear example of the BBFC's top-notch work.

Squeegoth

@arstal: "One way to punish the BBFC is with the wallet." "The point isn't to make the BBFC care,"

You tell me how those two quotes make any kind of sense together.

How are you going to "Punish the BBFC with your wallet"? And if "The point isn't to make the BBFC care." why are you punishing them with said wallet.

Also, anti-racism laws are not "asinine" I'm gathering from what you're writing that you are in the US. If so, someone from a country that suffers from endemic racism should really reserve comment.

And finally "Businessmen" are public citizens. Governments are no more likely to listen to the game retailers with regard to this issue than they were to listen to tobacco retailers when the smoking ban was introduced. If a government considers an issue to be in the public interest they won't be easily swayed by industrial groups. Maggie Thatcher saw to that.

I know it's not polite to flame but you do seem to be the sort of person who makes knee jerk, snap shot posts that follow the general opinion trend without taking the time to make a fully rounded argument of your own.

No offense meant. Just calling it the way I'm seeing it.

ThursdayNext