@excel_excel: lol! you really dont know that the spoiler didnt matter as it was right there all to read on last comment!

shaunomacx

Heheheheheh. Do do.

Adrock4

i don't mean to make so many comments but,

@excel_excel: personally i don't think so. there was nothing exaggerated about that. what would mostly everyone in the world do in a situation like that... the person you admired for so long died by your hands. why would it not be expected to shed a few tears?

push eject

@shaunomacx: sorry, it did have MGS4 SPOILER in capitals before the spoiler even on the main page

excel_excel

@excel_excel: yeah, no doubt about that bit with naomi and otacon.

@EmeraldDragon: Melodrama, on the other hand, is Snidly Whipplash tying Sweet Nell to the train tracks to get her to marry him.

pretty much yeah. i think the description in the article uses the term too loosely.

push eject

@EmeraldDragon: MGS 3's ending comes to mind, the music as Snake sheds that tear saluting the bosses grave.....that was melodrama

excel_excel

@excel_excel: thanks for the fucking spoiler!!! it appeared on the main page !!!

shaunomacx

His discription is really more plain old "drama" rather than "melodrama."

Anything can be very dramatic without being melodramatic, so long as the characters aren't being unreasonable. Snake's realization described by excel_excel is dramatic, but not melodramatic, unless he, say, decided to fling himself off a cliff to purge his soul of the evil he committed. Which he didn't.

Melodrama, on the other hand, is Snidly Whipplash tying Sweet Nell to the train tracks to get her to marry him.

EmeraldDragon

@push eject: Even not including that part the game is chock full of parts with melodrama,

-----------------SPOILER MGS4----------------------
after the battle with Vamp in Shadow Moses, after Naomi's death with Otacon watching on and the music in the backround and all, and Raiden's supposed death they were all highly melodramatic
-----------------END SPOILER----------------------

excel_excel

Melodrama ftw

ZetaCrossfire

@onidavin: um... nocturne would have been a better example of ambiguity i think. the scene in dds1 with jinana crying over the death of that 1 lady she met like 10 minutes ago was pretty unbearable.

push eject

@excel_excel: that's what i thought you were getting at, but i just don't see it. yeah snake realizes that in mgs4, but i don't see him getting very emotional about it, and especially nothing exaggerated - perhaps the characters around him, like that scene with naomi doing the examination - but snake himself seems even more detached in the latest game. in fact, if i remember correctly, there were parts in mgs4 when it would have been understandable for him to show concern, but instead he shrugged it off and made a joke about cigarettes or something

push eject

Two words:

Ace. Combat.

j_k_redtail

And that's why those plots are often pretty awful. Something like Portal, Digital Devil Saga, or Shadow of the Colossus, however? Ambiguity, good stuff.

onidavin

@ShaggE: how the hell is snake an anti-hero? you sure you understand what an anti-hero is?

noliferuin (PSN+XBL)

@push eject: when Snake realises this himself thats highly melodramaitc! emotion is exaggerated and plot and action are emphasized, Metal Gear is all about that! and the older meaning of melodrama of using song to heighten emotion also works with Metal Gear using the awesome soundtrack

excel_excel

Nothing wrong with that. The very idea of a "heroic" character invites melodrama. And an anti-hero like Niko or Snake? Melodrama in bucketfuls. Be it a game, a movie, or a book, it comes with the territory.

ShaggE

@excel_excel: Snake's role as the 'good guy' is something thats clear cut at the start of the series, but after Snake Eater you realise that all you were doing when playing as Solid Snake was being hired to kill someone, while he may have been tasked with destroying Metal Gear, this was only to lead you to kill the person who was bringing Metal Gear back.

how is this melodrama at all?

push eject

never found anything melodramatic in metal gear solid... except for the stuff involving otacon (sniper wolf/EE), but uhhh even those bits were done with the clear intention of being melodramatic - so they weren't really that bad.

every recent squareenix game on the other hand (besides the ivalice alliance games) are just filled with melodrama. especially kingdom hearts oh man hahaha

push eject

you picked the right pic for the article Maggie!
I'd say Metal Gear is definetly the most melodramatic game series ever, and Final Fantasy X is the most melodramatic Final Fantasy (not in a good way though with X).

Snake's role as the 'good guy' is something thats clear cut at the start of the series, but after Snake Eater you realise that all you were doing when playing as Solid Snake was being hired to kill someone, while he may have been tasked with destroying Metal Gear, this was only to lead you to kill the person who was bringing Metal Gear back.
Hence the line in MGS4 "I'm no hero, never was" "I'm just a killer doing some wet work"

excel_excel

What he just described is any hero ever written. It's not a "classic melodrama hero" it's just a "classic hero". Someone needs to read some Joseph Campbell.

Rorschach2112

This is totally off topic but I think Eve from the movie Wall-E is really really hott!

Foreign-Contaminant

More melodrama would be awesome in MGS4. Replace the Psyche Meter with a Estrogen Meter. Having to stop every couple of minutes so Snake doesn't cry, get moody, or have cramps.

And replace that gigantic exclamation mark above the enemies heads with a giant tear drop.

kosbee

@noliferuin (PSN+XBL):

Tell me, what is an "anti-hero"?

StormTec

The writer may be defining melodrama a bit broadly, be even a stricter definition would include Metal Gear. It's got over the top villians (Volgin, Liquid Ocelot, etc) damsels in distress, and sweeping, over-the-top monologues peppering most games in the series.

MGS has at many times expertly used melodrama, and it often employs straight dramatic techniques, but it most certainly swims a few laps in the melodrama pool.

Teo

@onidavin: nice! yeah i realized that after playing dds2. but if you were to take dds1 on it's own, that scene was quite explicit (in showing exaggerated emotions).

push eject

@Leobebes: hahaha. how does american culture (and cinema) shun melodrama, when 90% of hollywood films excessively use it.

no specific culture shuns it, it's there in almost every country's cinema as it appeals to the masses. it's certain films movements, like taiwanese new cineme, french newwave - stuff by ozu, godard, hou hsiao hsien, tsai ming liang - that truly shun melodrama.

push eject

I thought many parts in MGS4 were heartbreaking,
MGS SPOILER SHAUNOMACX DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU
---------------------------------------------------
like when you control Snake as he's crawling through the microwave. But I hate the way Otacon cries in every game. It always sounds so forced to me.
---------------------------------------------------
END OF SPOILER

DukeOfPwn

@push eject: It's only unbearable if you don't realize you're dealing with characters who don't understand emotion. It's overdone for a reason!

onidavin

@excel_excel: Agreed. Even Otacon's reaction to Emma's death, accompanied with Harry Gregson-Williams score playing during the scene, in Metal Gear Solid 2 was highly melodramatic. Then again, when isn't Otacon subjected to melodrama when faced with a traumatic event.

KeroseneClimax

Metal Gear Solid 4 and most 50 hour + Japanese games are melodramatic. Actually American cinema and storytelling is the only culture that shuns melodrama as an ineffective brand of storytelling.

Just put on Univision and Telemundo Melodrama to the max. MSG4 is the video game equivalent of a telenovela, its still a fun game though.

Leobebes

@excel_excel: I disagree. I thought that scene was beautiful. If you think Snake was being melodramatic, then maybe you don't fully appreciate the relationship Snake had with the Boss.

Iarwain

@shaunomacx: idiot, stop talking.

Fire4444

@excel_excel:

I'm sure it was dramatic, but it doesn't really sound melodramatic. Melodrama is drama that is exagerated to the point of being silly or cheesy. Just being a very dramatic scene does not make it melodramatic.

EmeraldDragon

@Iarwain: don't get me wrong I loved the scene and thought it was amazing, probably one of the most effecting scenes of anything I've ever watched, what made it melodramatic (and there's absolutly nothing wrong with that, espically as MGS does melodrama brilliantly) is the music helped emphasize the emotion that overcame big boss as he saluted the grave
@KeroseneClimax: as soon as I saw the words melodramatic I thought of the scene with Emma, it was very over the top

excel_excel

@Fire4444: Don't be a dick.

InsidiousTuna

@Stormrider: oops, yeah. it's been a while, so i forgot the names.
but regardless, i wouldn't use dds as an example for ambiguous storytelling - it's a bit complicated isn't it? nocturne on the otherhand is so minimal, stark and refrained..

push eject

yeah, enough of these whiny melodramatic emo heroes.. did master chief even shed a tear while ending the fight? no. what's wrong with you, snake/big boss, you tough-guy-wanna-be crybaby? (spoiler!) snake and big boss should have worn helmets during the ending

the_answer

@push eject: That was Argilla. Jinana was the woman who died. And as Onidavin said, it's because they had all just learned emotion and were not in control yet. That's why Heat became such a reprehensible dick.

Stormrider

@Rorschach2112: Yeah, Campbell would say this whole article's just fabricating stuff where common sense would simply dictate don't. By this guy's interpretation, melodrama is practically oxygen. I can't think of anything that gets by without what he's calling melodrama.

In an unrelated, and more important, note, Dudley Do-Right should not be compared to Solid Snake, because Dudley fought way cooler villains than Snake did. I mean, come on-- his name's Snidely Whiplash.

wild homes is non-canonical

Metal Gear has been a soap opera ever since MGS2

beril

@StormTec: "In fiction, an anti-hero is a protagonist who is lacking the traditional heroic attributes and qualities, and instead possesses character traits that are antithetical to heroism."

JustinS

@the_answer: You realise melodrama is about the situation, the story, right? Not about whether or not the hero is a crybaby. That's what the article is talking about. So yes, in the terms of the article, Halo is kind of preposterously melodramatic-- Master Chief has to head to the deepest asshole of alien space and disarm a bunch of devices that, without his explicit assistance will destroy, um, all of existence? That's practically the definition of melodrama, per the author's interpretation. Which is also the reason why this article is more than a bit absurd, because by the author's line of thinking, pretty much every story ever told wallows in melodrama. It's the currency of the realm.

wild homes is non-canonical

@wild homes is non-canonical: i was referring to the classic Melodrama Hero.. i agree with you that almost any story that involves the slightest emotion can be labeled melodrama by the author's interpretation.. it's the same way i call almost band nowadays emo

the_answer

@noliferuin (PSN+XBL): I don't think you fully understand what an anti-hero is because Snake does qualify as one. Anti-heroes lack traditional characteristics of heroism or heroic ideology. They break the law, they're flawed, they lack control of their situation, and share character traits that are synonymous with a villain (Anti-authoritarianism, murder, negative emotions, negative vices, amorality, etc.). All of the above are characteristics that Snake displays, thus placing him in the anti-hero category.

Dante from the Devil May Cry, Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Max Rockatansky from the Mad Max, Iori Yagami from the King of Fighters (now), and Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy VII would qualify as anti-heroes. Even some characters that don't kill people would qualify as anti-heroes due to their personality and methods of going against villains.

KeroseneClimax

@InsidiousTuna: his comments are nonsensical

Fire4444

@Fire4444: No, they're not, and you don't need to call him an idiot.

InsidiousTuna

New word to be added to the list of words people use without really knowing what they mean:

"Melodrama."

Other popular list items:

"Ironic"
"Pretentious"
"Ghetto"

etho

"Melodrama (n): 1a: a work (as a movie or play) characterized by extravagant theatricality and by the predominance of plot and physical action over characterization. b: the genre of dramatic literature constituted by such works."

-as per Meriam-Webster

Yeah, I'd say video games were melodramatic. In general. "Physical action over characterization" is the key here. The point of video games is to play them. That's what basically sets them apart from movies, what defines them as a medium. So the action (the doing) is the most important part. That puts the focus on the action and not the character. Lots of games try to subvert this (MGS4 and FFVII being two), but you can't deny that, by this definition, pretty much all games with a semblance of a narrative are melodramatic.

peAr nectAr

Holy hell, get a dictionary and look up the classical definition of "melodrama" people. It's not a bad thing. In the 50s, some of the greatest movies were characterized as melodramas. The Furies, for example. Yes, the word has taken on negative connotations of late, people associate it with soap operas and cheesy overwrought scenes. That may be what springs to mind first, but that's not all that melodrama is. It is merely having the dramatic portions of the work exaggerated to the point where they're obvious. For the vast majority of games, that is the story-telling method. Calling a game melodrama doesn't make MGS a soap opera. It doesn't make Dimitri from GTA Snidely Whiplash, either. It just makes it clear that the emotional scenes are made more obvious than perhaps necessary to the person seeing them.

Man, I'm glad to see recent comments are pointing out to the people that they're overreacting. Unfortunately I fear it's already too late.

miffy495

@etho: .. ad 'anti-hero' and 'epic' to that list. although some people have very well explained what an anti-hero is, the confusion arises often...

laencythe

'And at the center of these tales is the classic Melodrama Hero - a man (sometimes, but rarely a woman) of strength and courage who must do great deeds in an environment of heightened emotional intensity; a hero who operates within a clearly defined world of good and evil, charged with restoring order and stability from chaos.'

Not sure I agree with his criteria for melodrama - I think we could probably reduce most drama to melodrama with this description. However, if we were forced to use this definition I would nominate SotC as a videogame that doesn't succumb to melodrama.

**SPOILER**

Firstly, I think it is debatable whether the lead character is of 'strength and courage'. I would say, in attempting to save the nameless woman, he comes more from a position of desperation.

Secondly, it is never clear who is 'good' or who is 'bad' SotC. For example, as the history and motivations of the Colossi and the protagonist are never fully explained, you don't really know if he's butchering innocent creatures or malevolent beasts in his bid to save the woman. The only character that shows some level of immorality is the 'God' that asks him to kill the colossi. However, the only thing he is really guilty of is deception; you don't really know for what reason he misleads the main character - it may be for wholly altruistic reason.

It maybe the case that if games wish to avoid being melodramatic they need to have more characters of ambiguous moral leanings - I certainly think that most game narrative is guilty of trying to explain far too much.

Luckyjim

@the_answer: I agree. If our analysis of this article begins with the author's interpretation of melodrama-- which I think we both would say is pretty busted-- then the fruit of the tree is poisoned, right? Cheers!

wild homes is non-canonical

@KeroseneClimax: Thank you. Snake is the very definition of an anti-hero. The mere fact that he kills people makes him one, never mind all of his other qualifying traits.

I don't know where noliferuin got his definition of "anti-hero", but I'm sure neither Merriam nor Webster were involved.

ShaggE

@etho and @miffy495 are my heroes.

Let's add another word to the list:
Cheesy.

That is one underdefined word if I ever found one.

Melodrama is about clearly defined good vs. clearly defined evil...where the clearly defined good wins. It is also about eliciting emotional response from the audience. Melodrama is about morality and moral triumph.

People argue that according to this definition everything is melodrama. But if one knows their literary genres, one will know this to be not the case.

Batman stories, despite quite often having sequences designed purely to play on your emotions (when Robin died, frex)...can never be a melodrama...no matter how over the top it gets...because Batman does not symbolize pure good, and his stories are not about the triumph of good over evil.

Other lots of other genres that are not melodrama, here are a few:

Picaresque: in which a physically vigorous but morally imperfect hero gets into a series of hair-raising adventures. I think quite a few video games would fall under this category.

Bildungsroman: focuses on the psychological and sometimes spiritual development of the protagonist from childhood to maturity.

Drama: quite generic tends to be serious, may have a happy or non-happy ending, and treats an important issue. Many of these other categories are subsets of drama.

Tragedy: Drama that ends in disaster and focuses on a character who undergoes unexpected personal reversals. The protagonists are generally nobles or more important people.

Comedy: Happy endings. Also tends to deal with regular people and everyday situations.

Horror: About eliciting fear.
Gothic: About eliciting fear and exploring the subconcious.

We tend to use the word melodrama negatively, but there is nothing inherently negative about black hats and white hats where the white hat wins and we are meant to be taken on an emotional ride during the process.

Dickens while being sort of a realist novelist...much of his stuff was melodrama.
Star Trek the Original series...more melodrama than not.
Six Feet Under? The Wire? Not melodrama. People are too morally gray and there isn't a whole lot of the good guys triumphing over evil.

Superman can lend himself to Melodrama. Batman can't. Spiderman and Iron Man can't either.

Most 1950s Westerns were melodramas...but there were also a number of picaresque Westerns.

Heck, there are soap operas where the protagonists are morally gray enough that even they wouldn't count as melodrama anymore. Whereas Wrestling...good helping heap of melodrama there.

trooper6

@JustinS:

Good. I'm glad somebody knows.

I wonder if he wasn't the one who actually mistook the definition of the term.

StormTec

I think there's a strong correlation between the use of CGI cutscenes, among the more melodramatic games. My sixth "law" of gaming is: All video games should mainly use in-game cut scenes to tell story, with the possible exceptions of the intro and ending. If and when CGI cut scenes are used however, any actions performed by the characters in the said scene, should be available to perform in-game. This is my opinon of course, but I believe this restriction is what made good stories in the past, without the need to be melodramatic.

Green-clad Gamer Dude

Good melodrama is not silly. It is powerful...that is the whole point of it. Melodrama is a subset of drama. Drama can have anti-heros. Melodrama can't. Drama can be a tragedy, melodrama can't.

The set up isn't drama = good, melodrama = bad.

trooper6

Grandfather Paradox.

I would have no problem putting Buffy and Doctor Who in the melodrama category.

Lost I don't watch, so I can't say...but I wasn't under the impression that Lost was about black/white morality and the triumph of good over evil.

Desperate Housewives...from my understanding is soapy, and a comedy...but is it black/white in its morality? Does good always triumph over evil?

trooper6

Any dramatic scene can turn out silly or exaggerated depending entirely on how it's conveyed. In the end it's down to how it communicates to the audience whether it's "drama" or "melodrama". Credibility, atmosphere, production etc. matters more in this question than how "true to reality" the situation is.

Good drama can be conveyed in many different ways. For example by making you throw a cube into a disposal oven, with only a cynical computer voice monologuing about it. Realistic? Heck no. But powerful nonetheless.

Kyuu

There's no more melodrama in games than there is in shows like Buffy, Doctor Who, Lost or Desperate Housewives.

GrandfatherParadox

I've watched my friend play through about 80% of MGS4, and I can't see how anyone here can argue that it isn't melodramatic. It was highly entertaining, but also laugh-out-loud melodramatic quite often. And that final boss fight/ending? God, just bucketfuls of the stuff.

Defenestrated

And at the center of these tales is the classic Melodrama Hero - a man (sometimes, but rarely a woman) of strength and courage who must do great deeds in an environment of heightened emotional intensity: Heavenly sword.

hotcrossnuns

@kosbee: I bet all the girls love you...

Interstella5555

Snake FTW

GTA4er

You could argue that the amount of melodrama in most games is what prevents critics and non-gamers from picking up the medium. It may be why people regard games as immature; the hero(s) is clearly defined, the enemy(s) is clearly defined, the goal(s) is clearly defined. When there's such a lack of subtlety, then all you can gauge a game's greatness by is in its level design and gameplay.

boopadoo

I think this guy is confusing "dramatic" and "melodrama".
imo, "dramatic" makes you go "whoa, powerful stuff" whereas "melodrama" is when the writer/director grabs the viewers neck and screams "you're supposed to be crying now!"

cyhborg

I am so done with melodrama. Doctor Who is like a great big weepy "we're all gonna die" fest because of it. Someone's gotta put a stop to it.

mariospants

@KeroseneClimax: it seems to me that maybe you haven't played mgs, because snake doesn't really have any of the anti-hero characteristics you attributed him with. snake isn't really an anti-hero or a hero; though he somewhat embodies some of the affectual characteristics of the anti-hero, he is constantly reinforced as the classical modernist stoic hero instead. if we're going to say there's an anti-hero in the mgs universe, it would probably be liquid ocelot.

as for melodrama, the definition presented here is pretty seriously problematic, and metal gear solid doesn't fit at all. despite not being a proper melodrama, mgs does make frequent use of melodrama. an easy way to spot melodrama is to recognize the moments where an emotional effect is incommensurate with the cause.

adaorardor

It's no mystery that games are filled with melodrama. Isn't that why we love RPG's? How else are you going to dress up the "angst-ridden teenage saves the world with a sword" storyline that we've heard a billion times?

Benjo

@adaorardor: Wow, I'm pretty sure I've played MGS allot longer then you believe, so don't assume anything, and no matter how much you try to tip-toe around it, he is still an anti-hero. I have no idea how you can claim Liquid Ocelot is an anti-hero while excluding Snake. Outside of the erroneously mentioned Amorality, he does exhibit every other characteristic of an anti-hero I've mentioned. Have you ever played MGS? Do you know what an anti-hero is either? Did you even read my post?

Replay the games and you'll see that everything I've said is backed up throughout the games. There is no effectual characteristics about it, Snake either is an anti-hero or he isn't. Calling him a modernist (which he isn't a modernist by the way. Please play MGS or at least pay attention when doing so) stoic hero is a claim based on his personality, not on his overall character type and motivations, and if it was, he'd still be a stoic anti-hero.

I'm going to gain a better understanding of melodrama, but can you people please do me a favor and learn what an anti-hero is.

KeroseneClimax

@KeroseneClimax: late to the game, but i read your post, i know what an anti-hero is, and solid snake is not it. sorry. or, maybe to be more accurate, solid snake is positioned as the modernist hero, and plays that role, but the mgs series is in part about how problematic and unsteady that position is. solid snake is 'the legendary hero', the stoic modernist; in fact he's almost the text-book definition of modernism, complete with the caveat that modernism always contains at its core the stain of postmodernism.

one thing that's interesting about your reply is that you say that snake is "either an anti-hero or he isn't," and then later you attribute parts of the character with the traits of the hero ("his personality") and other parts with the traits of the anti-hero ("overall character type and motivations"). this seems contradictory to me. you claim that there are "no effectual [sic] characteristics about it," but what is 'character type' if not pure affect? so you are right, his character type is that of an anti-hero, but it hardly cements his status as such.

adaorardor