@TheAngryHeretic: Damn them for wanting to protect their intellectual property. Damn those companies who produce games and expect to get some form of payment for them. Damn them! Damn them all to Hell!

Mokai

How many R4 owners out there also mod their consoles? I bet the ratio is LOW. To me, this shows that people are mostly doing this casually and not to steal games. If they were downloading a lot a games they would have bought, they would be modding their consoles as well becuase they are cheap bastards.

Face it, R4+super-easy-to-download sites=convenience

Go after the sites that provide the roms, not the hardware!

aevanko

I got an R4 first becuase I can't fucking rent games here in Japan - you spend a shitload of money, hit or miss. Sorry but if they had demos of all the games out there, I woudn't even have an R4 becuase that's what I use it for - to see if I like it before I buy it.

aevanko

I am really starting to hate Nintendo. Dumb shit like this. I would love it if Nintendo had a way that I could have 5 or 6 o my favorite DS games on a single cartridge.

To me, that is the single greatest option devices like the R4 bring. But Nintendo, with all of it's game hardware success, does not see the potential of this device. Dumb asses.

TheAngryHeretic

@BPMπ: By-and-large your answers there suggest that piracy is bad primarily based on the idea that a sale is being lost, but as you mentioned yourself that point could be argued either way. I don't think it can be stated decisively that developers, publishers and retailers are hurt unless it can be stated equally decisively that a sale was lost. At best all we can conclude is that piracy sometimes hurts developers, publishers and retailers depending on the motivations of the person doing the downloading.

Even if a sale was lost it isn't really same situation as someone shoplifting a copy of a game off a store shelf. This relates to my earlier point in regard to supply restrictions which itself relates to fundamental economic concepts. The forces of supply and demand and the point at which the two meet which determines the ideal product cost. In the case of a real physical product there are limits on how many can be made and each copy of the product has an associated real-world cost. The situation we have with the internet though really eliminates the duplication costs and physical nature of these products. Essentially it provides the situation of infinite supply at what is essentially zero cost. Based on supply and demand curves when you have such an infinite supply situation the ideal product cost tends towards "free".

Obviously this extreme situation will never work in the real world as few companies will ever release a game for free without some personal benefit in doing so. Having said that though, holding the product price at the same level it would be if it was a supply-limited physical product is simply ignoring the economic factors in play. I would argue that such a business model is doomed to fail. It could also be argued that it is morally wrong to artificially inflate a product's price based on a production model that is no longer relevant.

This isn't the first time in history such a situation has arisen. In the past a few companies or organisations have always had to fail before a new viable business model could emerge to suit the changing economic situation. I expect that will happen in the content creation industries (Movies, music, games) some time in the future.

MattB

JALECO! Jaleco... jaleco.

(of course you don't get it)

jeffx

Every game you d/l to your R4 is every game stolen.

This will only last a few years though, right before the net changes the way it works.

ten10

@Zhai: Sounds like everyone besides us in the US are being absolutely gouged at the store. I fee sorry for you but also some of us are pretty freaking poor as well. Personally, I work full-time and am also a full-time student so I'm living paycheck to paycheck. If I can test a game out to make sure it's worth buying and can also use neat homebrew than my M3 Real is totally worth it... and it is!

Grahamunculus

Dear nintendo,
Thanks for being a B and wanting more and more profit, preventing more skilled and creative programmers from using it for good homebrew programs that are fun and useful, nothing like your UI.
yours truly,
R4 owner :D

Phibius

@MattB:
Is the owner no longer able to sell the original item that was "taken"?
Depends on how you think about it. You could argue that for each pirated copy is one less potential sale. Yes, there are no fewer copies on the store shelves to be sold, but it may be fewer copies being bought. A lost sale.

Did the process of "taking" the item cost the owner in materials, production, administration or shipping costs?
Nope.

Has the owner lost a potential sale due to the item being "taken"?
Perhaps, and perhaps not. You could argue that the pirate had no intention of buying the game in the first place. But, just as well, you could argue that a person might've bought the game if they weren't able to get it for free.

Is there a third party who is in some way disadvantaged due to the item being "taken"?
Developers, publishers, retailers. I don't know who you'd consider the third party in this case, but piracy does hurt them all.

Is the owner artificially creating supply restrictions in order to increase the monetary value of the item?
lol wut

If the owner has lost nothing then where exactly does the ethical problem of this "taking" lie?
Again, it can be argued whether or not something has been "lost."

---

By no means am I saying software piracy is the same as stealing a physical object (and I apologize if it comes across that way).
However, I don't find theft as being defined by how it affects someone else. Theft is the act of taking something that you don't own, without permission and without offering something in trade (be it money or items to barter with).

BPMπ

I'd say around 80% of the DS games avaliable aren't worth buying! Most retail stores here in the UK won't give refunds on games, so if you spend £30 quid for a crap game you're generally stuck with it!

The problem with the games industry is the lack of demos. You rarely seem them bar on PC.

So the R4 for me is a way of testing games, if a game is good i'll go out and buy it then delete it from the cart, if its crap i'll delete it.

matthewbennion

Also, anything I would (hypothetically) pirate, I wouldn't buy. Nothing to recover there, Nintendo. Plus, I have a CycloDS, shutting down R4 does nothing. I think if they're serious about this, they need to outlaw these cards completely. And they won't do that.

FancyRat

@Maldron: Holy shit, that was word-for-word what my reply was going to be.

FancyRat

"it is causing severe damage to our company"

Poor, poor Niny. I feel so sorry for them. Almost feel as bad as when an extreemely fat man started complaining about his life of little food.

proust

Bzzt WRONG... this thing doesnt "allow illegal uploading from the internet" any more than a dvd burner allows downloading of illegal movies from the internet.

These sort of stupid statements just pollute an already confusing system with even more bullshit.

mx5geek

@BPMπ: Before you can argue "theft" I think you need to define what you mean by "take" and the effects of this action. Is the owner no longer able to sell the original item that was "taken"? Did the process of "taking" the item cost the owner in materials, production, administration or shipping costs? Has the owner lost a potential sale due to the item being "taken"? Is there a third party who is in some way disadvantaged due to the item being "taken"? Is the owner artificially creating supply restrictions in order to increase the monetary value of the item? If the owner has lost nothing then where exactly does the ethical problem of this "taking" lie?

I believe the answers to those questions will be significantly different to the traditional ideas of what considered "theft" outside of the last few of decades.

Don't get me wrong. I am not asserting that software copying isn't theft, but I don't think it's anywhere near as cut and dried as you're suggesting. Grey areas abound.

MattB

*Americans bitching about price of games ARE just pissing me off.

Zhai

Americans bitching about price of games is just pissing me off. Well know one thing - I live in Poland, in Eastern Europe. And prices of console games are here just insane. For new X360 game we have to pay 120 USD. For new NDS game we pay over 75 USD. That's right, you mean bastards. Game companies don't treat Eastern and Western Europe sparately (but they should to). Thanks to it we get prices that can be normal for people earning a couple of thousands of Euro a month, but in Poland average salary doesn't get over 1k Euro. Just to let you know...

PS. And our gas prices are like 2$ per liter (around 7,4$ per gallon, if my calculations are OK).

Zhai

@Grahamunculus: No, they'll use the R4 as a precedent for other cases. So if it goes Nintendo's way, which I hope it doesn't, all mod chips will be ruled illegal in Japan.

hahnchen

@BPMο:If it was theft, you'd go through the criminal justice system, instead of the getting sued through civil courts. Theft suggest the denial of the product for someone else.

hahnchen

Oh for god's sake, as if this is actually going to hurt their sales. OH MAH GAWD, WE MIGHT NOT MAKE AN EXTRA FEW MILLION CUZ OF TEH R4! Ugh. I wanted one of these things too.

VengefulRonin

When given the choice between:

"NEVER play a game EVER."
"Buy the game and play it."

Which will you pick?

Sadly, the 3rd choice:
"MAKE EXCUSE and download it because it doesn't give you head and do your laundry"

Is the one that is most often picked and that is the problem.

Edmon

I think they are looking at a Napster sort of situation here. You stop one and ten more similar products pop up.

Grahamunculus

@hahnchen:

It won't happen, if for anything, gaming in Japan is uber-super capitalist paradise.
IIRC, isn't renting games or something or another forbidden there, or was that in the past? Due to the fact it hurt profits.

otimus

I pirate anything that I would have rented otherwise.
I buy anything that's a big release, a console game on a console that isn't easily pirated, multiplayer games, and anything I know that'll last me longer than 6 hours.

I think everything should be free, and it should! Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way, the world is full of greedy and vile people, and those greedy and vile people control the funds and inner workings of pretty much everything, and as such, things aren't going to get made, that don't make money. It's a shame, but it's the hard truth :/

One day, we can only hope that'll change.

Star Trek TNG Future FTW!

otimus

I hope that the R4 guys prevail, with the decision going the same way as they have in the UK and Australia. Although, given that Nintendo are on home turf, I'm not sure it'll happen.

Which is a shame, because hardware companies should not be dictating what you do with the machines you've bought.

hahnchen

While I do not agree with Piracy and I think the distinction between pirates and paying consumers isn't as clear cut as people would like to believe and both markets overleap in multiple instances, I cannot help but wonder if the distribution system for DS games isn't totally flawed. I spent over £120 last week on 3 DS games, GH on tour and 2 imports, FF4 & EO2.
I obviously do consider these worth my money but I can believe some people cannot or won't justify spending this much over 3 DS titles every 2 weeks or so. I wouldn't mind Nintendo delivering an online service making the games available to DL and try for free then being able to buy or rent them online for a monthy fee or a cheaper price since hardware & distribution at this point are out of the equation.
I can't help but feel that if they really wanted to protect their hardware they could have done that from the start, they didn't because they thought cartridges would be enough. Well it obviously isn't and it's actually much more practical to own a flashcart than multiple cartridges.

Fabrice

@mhlaxp:
Did you take something that costs money without paying for it? Even if it's a copy, that still sounds like theft to me.

BPMπ

@aevanko:
The only way to kill the convenience of software piracy is... well... kill the Internet.

--

I do think flash carts are not entirely to blame for the piracy issue on the DS. Partially, but not entirely.
With these flash carts, it's just so simple. Download some ROMs from the Net, put them on your microSD card (or miniSD, SD, or even CompactFlash with older flash carts!), and viola! Instant free game.

People don't always care about what's "right"... but what's "cheap." And nothing's cheaper than free, even if it's piracy.

In and of themselves, the flash cart does not instantly mean someone just downloaded a bunch of games instead of buying them. They could, but it isn't guaranteed. Same with the custom firmwares for PSP.

I'm an owner of both an M3 SD slim version and an M3 Lite. And yet, I own a staggering 64 DS games. So, what do I do with those flash carts?
1) Multimedia. DS makes for a nice, quick movie/music player.
2) Homebrew. Especially for the excellent DS "port" of Tetris: The Grand Master.
3) Game "renting." Sometimes (but rarely), I'd download a Japanese game to try it out before the US release (though, I think I've only done this with Megaman ZX and Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.. Both of which I own the legit US versions of).
4) Easy multi-card multiplayer. It's annoying how some games still require multiple cards for multiplayer when they really shouldn't, so I can make backups of my DS games (since they're backups I've made, they're 100% legal ROM images for me to own!) for multiplayer needs.

However, I don't think my kind is the majority of flash cart owners. Seems like most flash cart-focused forums are asking about what games to download or how to get a certain game to work on their cart...

TL;DR: Piracy is a problem, but I think they're pointing the finger at the wrong place.

BPMπ

You guys bandying about the word "thief" are a bit overzealous. When pirates take something, they don't take it away. When pirates use something, they don't use it up. It hardly qualifies as "theft."

mhlaxp

Hm. Maybe I should pick one of these up for homebrew before Nintendo sues it out of existence.

Not everyone is a pirate, you know.

Overlord44

@Foxstar Sixtail:
I'm sorry but they established this massive market share over time and not from day one!
PS1 games were easy to copy from the start!
It used only 4 wires and a modchip to make a PS1 ready for piracy!
According to you the PS1 would have failed but we all know it didn't...

Garo

:@ fuck me triple damn post and if *Cant pirate then you buy

vig0r

@donquijote23: Oh, like the PS3 enables homebrew in 3 ways (linux, otherOS, BD-J) and still the PS3 has no piracy :P ?

somarix

lol i forgot my point halfway through,basically if you really want something you're either gonna pirate it or buy it and if you can pirate then you buy.that applies in every case.

vig0r

testamonium your argument sounds good but they're alot of people who would buy the game but simply dont,for example take guitar hero 3 for pc,are you gonna DL that for teh lulz because you can or are you gonna go out and spend 60 bucks on a guitar emulator?(this is pc only cause it works with a keyboard)

vig0r

I have an R4, but I only use it for games that aren't really worth buying or to try before I buy

SupaPhly

They say that outside the hardcore pirates, the casual users don't usually get into piracy becuase it involves complicated, 'dirty' ways of getting pirated software.

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the Japanese that are using R4 use it becuase of convencience - it is just way too damn easy to type in the title of the game you want, and poof! there it is on the internet.

Kill the convenience of piracy and you'll see numbers of pirates go down HALF I bet.

aevanko

@aevanko: I think it's a lot harder to take them down legally because no one has jurisdiction over the internet. You're absolutely right though. They are the main offenders.

JokesJokes

Can we say...Napster?

JCVD

@mugenektr: I would argue that is true, but that doesn't make you right by "majority kotakuvote."

JokesJokes

They should be targeting the sites that have direct-to-download games that you can browse like a library (ahem, nds-roms.com). If getting your hands on pirated games were harder, some of the people tempted to get the R4 probobly wouldn't. I mean, c'mon, "nds-roms.com" - how the hell did they not shut this place down? Blame the supliers of illegal roms, not the suplier of the tool.

aevanko

@Garo:PS1 and PS2 owned a massive share of the market, enough to offset theives. Your points are still massively flawed.

Foxstar Sixtail

@Foxstar Sixtail:
Referring the PSP. We can see an nice increase in software sales as it is expanding its audience.

Garo

Seems to me that the Kotaku user base must have significantly changed over the last few months. When this topic has come up in the past the general vibe has been strongly against piracy.

Personally I'm inclined to think Nintendo is wasting their time here and that any time and money they invest in fighting piracy is time and money that could be better spent elsewhere. Having said that I certainly don't support the idea that piracy is a right or that taking from the industry while giving nothing back is okay. Without our support the industry will wither and die leaving us all with nothing.

The problem I see that needs attention is what kind of business model can work in the modern digital world where there is unlimited supply.

MattB

Considering the fact that everyone I know who uses an R4 uses it almost solely to pirate games, I really do wish that this thing would just go away. Really, how can anyone who uses an R4 in this fashion consider himself/herself a gamer?

And, for those who mention the fact that this still creates steady hardware sales, it should be known that a company doesn't make nearly as much money on hardware as it does on software. While I'm pretty much loathing Nintendo at the moment, DS was a really good investment, and I support it by purchasing the games that I want.

I realize that R4 certainly has its uses within the homebrew community, but I doubt that many people are using it in this fashion. I suppose that it'd be cool to own an R4 for homebrew, but I own a Dreamcast, so there's no real point to bothering with that, in my opinion.

kubevubin

@Foxstar Sixtail:
PS1 and 2 were also easy to copy... still they have prevailed.
It seems that only "hardcore" systems are really "suffering" from piracy, which actually makes sense because it's the hardcore that knows everything about their console of choice.

Garo

@mugenektr:They are at least classy enough to shut the hell up about it and not carry some sort of "I have the right to play this." mindset.

Foxstar Sixtail

@Jayl3w:

I had to go to five retailers before finding a copy (and it was the LAST COPY) of Tetris DS at a Toys R' Us. And this was last year. Now they're impossible to find. Ridiculous.

ThaiGrocer

You bet the pokémon company isn't super happy about people not buying multiple iterations of the same game over and over again.

Fabrice

I thought people only bought the DS because of the R4.

LianYL

Meh, I'm not about to try and say piracy is wrong. I pirate music and programs. I understand why some people pirate games, since publishers tend to screw people living in Europe, and other countries.

I'd pirate games that don't come to the US if I could be bothered.

Nedus

@Foxstar Sixtail: lol there are many thieves in kotaku then, i am not the only one.

mugenektr

@Flareslove: Your post should have been the last one here. It's spot-on.

Only a few pirates can afford (or have access to) the entertainment they want. The whole market is also fucked-up: you US, UK, JP and DE gamers (that can afford things MUCH more easily) have access to "bargain bins", rentals, easy trade-ins, selling on eBay. None of the poorer countries have any of that. The most those kids can afford is to save-up a year or two for the hardware and one-two games. That money for one-two games thus goes for R4 or whatever, because it'll be another year to collect money for the next 2 games. These guys will then buy only the 1-2 most successful games, not adding any food to the table to bleeding companies.

The problems are with people that CAN afford the stuff, have access to the physical media, but choose to pirate anyway. As long as they're not pissed-off that they live in Europe :P (being constantly treated like scum by game publishers) .

Man, this discussion repeats again and again

somarix

@Testamonium: That question's been examined many times in this thread already. While people out there exist like you, you are unfortunately a very small minority of the flashcart owners.

@Allosteric: That's not an argument from defending fans, that's from a legal standpoint. Technically flashcart companies do not condone illegal activity on their products, and they are sold for the use of other features. Sure they know they're products are being used for illegal activities and driving their sales, but from a legal standpoint, it's going to be tough to sue them. The people they're supposed to be going after are the websites making the illegal material available for use on flashcarts.

Mit

@Foxstar Sixtail:
Right on brother.

@Tarislar:
The only problem is that enabling homebrew = opening doors wide open to piracy, and as we can see people can't really be trusted.

donquijote23

@mugenektr: Likewise lol.

Jayl3w

@ Verrius and ZTF

I know I can import games, but that means paying even more in import shops, or having extra import taxes and the risk of it getting lost in the mail (happens a lot here in Belgium, avid gaming postmen I guess) when buying online. So no thanks.

And ZTF: I work in this industry, so I can clearly say: YES, the no copy protection was a strategic choice. With the history of piracy in this biz, do you REALLY think they forgot that aspect??? Like in: "oh, damned, a shame we didn't see this coming." You do know that Sony grew to what it is today, by its easy to mod PS1 and PS2, do you?

You either go all out on anti-piracy measures, or you set the gate wide open. Nintendo chose option 2, wich meant cheap hardware and better hardware sales. They brought this on themselves.

And really, you don't think they give a **** do you? This is all just to make 3rd party publishers think they care. They've got their money, 3rd party sales are a disaster.

Prodigy_BE

@Testamonium:I have. I look at two systems that were very easy to pirate for.

The PSP.-System sales are up, but software sales blow ass and aren't getting any better. Only one 2 million unit seller. Very few million sellers.

The Dreamcast.-Did not live enough for a complete study, but was starting to show damage from poor software sales.

Foxstar Sixtail

Has anyone ever examined the question "would pirates actually buy the software they're pirating?" I tend to pirate things I'm either unsure of, or in which I have only a minimal interest (I don't count so-called abandonware in this, though with things like the Virtual Console the existence of ROMs has become an issue once again).

I only bring this up because of the argument that piracy hurts the industry. If the vast majority of pirates are pirating for the sake of piracy, and have no intent on purchasing what they pirate because they 1) can't or 2) don't want to, then there is no financial gain to be had from 'recovering' that particular demographic.

Testamonium

Ugh.

-Never fails -not- to hurt developers.

-Pay for the games.

Foxstar Sixtail

@zfleeman:Please, be even more of a retard.

@mugenektr:If you aren't willing to pay the publishers for their time, then YOU SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING THEIR GAMES, you worthless thief. I think i've found Spoony his first banhammer target, because while we may not be able to stop you from stealing, we don't have to hear about it from you. Die in a fire, thief and may your fingers be broken.

@Garo:Here's the results of your study. "Piracy results in higher system sales, but can be a undebatable blow to software sales and can result in less software being released for the system. See also the Dreamcast and the PSP." Yeah, you may go play the games you try, but you know what? The 50 other smoos who DL the game you did, won't. It's how it works. It's why the Dreamcast, if it had lived long enough would have died anyway, because the so called 'gamers' were burning games left and right and why developer support for the PSP isn't there like it should be.

Piracy never fails to hurt developers enough that they respond in ways that hurt -you- and you can't spin it any other way.

Foxstar Sixtail

@mugenektr:
don't say that here, the morale police will get medieval on your ass. as a pirate your lower on the social ladder then a murderer (they make for better television)!

LlamaNL

I'd be slightly more sympathetic towards Nintendo if they actually provided another way for people to run homebrew games.

As it is, they want to be all tight arsed about allowing anyone else access to their precious hardware or writing a single line of code for it, they can go get stuffed.

Seriously, put out a decent homebrew kit and THEN go hogwild on the pirates. They'll at least have more people backing them.

Tarislar

Okay, seriously, does anyone use R4s for anything else besides pirating games? Because it seems to me like the "it has other advertised features!" argument and whatnot is just a way to put the blame on the users rather than the manufacturers. I mean, I admit I don't know much about the R4, but really seems like its defenders are just beating around the bush.

Allosteric

@JokesJokes: "Unfair" to companies is a little silly. I was pointing out the hardware sales for a market that wouldn't exist otherwise. Using my friends as an example.

If the ds's weren't to be bought to begin with, neither would the games. You can't harm sales that wouldn't have existed anyway.

If anything, my friends who have ds's might even put more money into nintendo and the gaming companies in the future because being able to play the games now has increased thier interest in gaming, towards consoles and future games that cannot be pirated so easily.

Flareslove

I hope Nintendo&company wins because Capcom, SE, Level 5, etc.'s right to make money on that software is more important than your right to play an mp3 on your DS. There is a loss on one side or the other no matter how it goes down, but as gamers we should be supporting these companies that make our hobby possible. A vast majority of the people who use these (yes, these. the article says " 'R4 Revolution for DS'-type devices")are using them to dl retail software. So, yeah, if you buy a DS for R4 then Nintendo does get some money. But where does Level 5's money come in when you dl Professor Layton?

donquijote23

@JokesJokes: The DS + the R4 is the equivalent technically, since with an iPod you can play anything, but with just a DS you can only play retail games. Agreed on all your other points though >.>

Mit

Mmmm, the problem is that the R4 is already an outdated flash cart, there are already at least 3 other with even more options...

TOCATL

They are indeed going after the wrong people and I can't see this legitimately turning out for Nintendo. Just as iPods can play illegal music (as previously stated by someone), R4's can technically play illegal DS games, but they have other features that they are advertised for, legitimate features. They don't condone pirating games (although it certainly drives their sales).

@MelodyKitn: I highly doubt any significant percentage of R4 sales are from parents of children who use DS's.

Saying that the shovelware isn't worth it isn't a valid argument either (as someone else stated earlier). You know the shovelware isn't worth it, so you don't buy it, nor do you even download it onto your R4's. You download the good games, some of which you would indeed end up buying if you didn't have an R4. People who fall for shovelware are not people smart enough to even know what a flashcart is.

Getting mad because the reason you think Nintendo sells so much hardware is because pirates can get R4's is also dumb. Nintendo doesn't need hardware sales from pirates, nor do they want them. They have more than enough money. They would much rather have their software industry do better for them and other publishers, even if the amount of games bought does not equal the amount of games downloaded, and even if hardware sales decline (although really, they would not decline by any significant amount).

Anyhow, there's little chance they win this. And to everyone saying YA R4 WUT ABOUT ALL THE OTHER ONES, read the article, it says "R4 Revolution for DS-type devices". It most likely pertains to all flashcarts sold in Japanese retailers.

Mit

@JokesJokes: That should be "companies" plural, I can see how t would benefit nintendo.

JokesJokes

@Flareslove: Nintendo may benefit, but what about the people who actually make the games? It's not fair to them to take their hard work and leave them with nothing. If you're fine with stealing then steal, (once again, nothing personal but I hope you all get caught...unfortunately that doesn't ever seem to happen) but don't try to justify it as a service to the company.

JokesJokes

Being able to play mp3's on the DS saves having to carry another portable device.

jacka1

@aevanko: That's a false comparison. The DS itself is the equivlent of the iPod in this scenario, as they're both players, don't you think?

JokesJokes

Even though I usually don't exaggerate, but it seems that thieves are openly declaring their deeds and justifying them too. Please understand that as such third party developers are alienating Nintendo and with increasing piracy, they will have one more reason to do so.

venkat55

@mugenektr:
his very stupidly obvious point is that if you have to steal to live then it's acceptable not that it's not stealing but if you steal simply because you can without any kind of life threatening necessity but simply for teh lulz then it's wrong,i could pirate my x360 games,infact my xbox doesnt even have a case on it and im looking at a sata wire,i could plug it right in and flash my disc drive,all is well BUT i dont and neither should you,now i'll be right back im gonna go pick up ninja gaiden 2 and SC IV

vig0r

@verrius: While your point is valid about the first game purchase, In my circle of friends I'm the only real gamer. I pay money for games, I pay money for flash carts. I've been a lifetime customer of nintendo so far.

My friends on the other hand, they've seen my ds, what its capable of. 4Gigs of music/games with the flash carts. Of all my friends, 8 non gamers have purchased a DS and a flash cart. I can guarantee you that without the flash cart capabilities, they would not have bought the DS hardware. When they take a DS out, they don't want to lug around 5 different carts for different games.

The situation on the whole might be different, but from my experience and witnessing a couple of thousand dollars towards nintendo that wouldnt have without the r4/xtreme/g6, the flash cart companies have helped them in that respect.

Flareslove

Wow...thievery is cool now? I guess because it's in small amounts and nintendo is still making gobs of money it's ok to steal licensed properties. I mean, nintendo's the only company losing profit from the theft of these games, right? No hard working third party developers are getting screwed or anything.

Now I know why nintendo doesn' want let people to load their downloaded games directly from the SD card slot in the Wii.

@mugenektr: You're trying too hard to "win" instead of making sense. You can see the difference between stealing to live and stealing because you don't want to pay for a luxury item, right? Don't make general statements you don't believe just to prove your point.
In defense of a point you made earlier though, how many people on this site are arguing against videogame piracy like this but still illegally download movies and music? It's more than a bit hypocritical. Valid point.
That being said, that doesn't make what you're doing right or put the missing money back in the pockets of developers. Nothing personal (and I mean it when I say it), but I hope you and all the other pirates get nailed for stealing their stuff. I don't like people taking what doesn't belong to them and acting like it's ok because they can't get caught or because everyone else does it or they're still making money or whatever. Agree or disagree, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

JokesJokes

@Mr. Mastodon Farm: Either that, or do the other Nintendo trick of unleashing a new peripheral with every new game. Can't pirate hardware! ...yet.

Datheron

Taking the devil's advocate position (well, against the people here anyway), could it be b/c Nintendo sees the makers of R4 be the ones making a profit off the entire piracy deal? The ROM hosts may be making money off of ads and spyware installs and whatnot in their act of hosting, but a DS-game-d/l'er's traffic would be insignificant to actual $20-30 of profit R4's makers are raking in with every cart sold.

Datheron

Good thing I have a CycloDS!

Ryumeka

@mugenektr:
lol, who let this articulate silver-tongued devil in here?

Nobody should really have to explain to you why pirating is wrong, part of being a pirate is acknowledging you're a parasite and fucking loving it.

But since corporations right now are pretty much powerless against this stuff, the consequences will likely take the shape of shit like Wii Fit and Wii Music polluting the market because the hardcore crowd has become too hardcore to pay for their games.

Just don't come crying to us when Elite Beat Agents 2 is scrapped for some casual singing game that has a chance of actually selling decent.

...

Mr. Mastodon Farm

A friend of mine sold me his DS phat, along with a R4DS and like four other games for $50 total(yes, for everything). I already had a R4DS prior to this, but it's nice to have a spare right now that Nintendo is about to sue the hell out of the company. I kind of doubt it'll change anything, though.

However, will this mean no more updates to the firmware if they win? That won't be good D:

PRguitarman

Seriously, is a game like Imagine: Babiez worth 30 dollars? Probably the packaging that went into it, but the games that the kiddies buy and get tired of aren't worth the kind of money parents have to fork over for those production values.

And this is partially why an R4 ends up selling for the wrong reasons. Because tech savvy parents, not just gamers, want something affordable that will shut their kids up for however long their attention span is (which probably isn't very long when every other puppiez and poniez game comes out every two weeks or so.

Really, I wish they'd help make games worth buying again. Remember how Lunar had an enormous amount of random junk that made it worth spending on? Thankfully, it was an amazing game, but had it been crap, I had other stuff it came with to at least help justify the purchase. (The best was the punch toy) There are people that still love games for games, and if you give them something extra, they will pre-order/buy just to have that junk. (Like me and Harvest Moon stuffed animals...) Be it a simple art/concept book stuffed in with the manual (hell, could make manuals actually worth reading again too by actually putting decent art and style to them), a laminated map card, a stylus topper, these are things that R4 users can't get (but might want) that could force more legit sales.

MelodyKitn

R4 is the shit.. it allows me to put a bunch of games that I legally bought onto one SD card so I don't have to carry around all those damn games with me. It also allows for mp3s and movies to be played on the DS. Best product EVAR!

JustOneFix

@mikevanpwn: I haven't taken you out of context. Anyone can see what you said. I didn't dispute Nintendo's right to sue - as a legitimate business operating in a country with laws they can sue whoever they want for whatever reason they want - but actually winning a lawsuit requires proof of damages caused by a defendant, which I don't think they can accomplish in fair proceedings. Again, means versus ends.

Yes, as a company which owns intellectual property they should be fighting piracy. That's a statement I can agree with.

UltraMagnus

DS's just aren't worth it. They're too fragile, even the lites. Maybe I oughta pick up an R4 while I still can.

Metal_Slug_Solid

This won't be a big blow to pirates, seeing as they're trying to outlaw it in Japan and other major markets like the US. The pirates are making money from the millions of other DS users in other regions such as South East Asia and China where original software and the foreign exchange rate make owning legitimate software a luxury.

Where i live, a McValue Meal costs about 10 bucks.
An R4 with a MicroSD package is about 150 bucks.

I don't have an R4 and so far I've spent about 2000 bucks on games. It hurts badly, and if not for my passion for games, I would've gone an R4 too. It has been tempting.

Alucrix

Well this step of the battle against DS piracy may seem pointless, but everything starts somewhere. While I guarantee that Nintendo will never get this totally under control, at least they can say they're trying.

Also, the use of flash carts for homebrew is nice and all, but I believe it breaks the EULA since they're not licensed by Nintendo. The fact that the carts could plausibly be used by people with lawful intentions just means you're not breaking the law, but you are breaking the EULA.

I think it's silly when people try to defend piracy on the DS. The only important thing about the act is whether it falls within the acceptable bounds of morality for each individual, and whether they feel the reward outweighs the risk. Nobody is going to change their opinion based on another person's arguments for or against piracy.

Omatic

There is a positive symbiotic relationship between piracy and installbase numbers.
It helped the PS1, it helped the DS and it still helps the Wii to establish a gigantic install base.
It would be an interesting topic for a study.
But back on topic: Of course they will try to shut it down now. They established the installbase they wanted and now it's time to kill the pirates that helped them and now are "hurting" software sales.

Garo

@UltraMagnus: There is no point in arguing with you. All you've done is piece together my comments in such a way to berate my position.

I still believe that the R4 should not have been sold on retail shelves. And that Nintendo has the right to sue. I'm not saying they will win but that they should be fighting piracy. Thats what brought my demonoid comment which did not at all relate to NDS Roms.

mikevanpwn

@DaFox: I'm curious, what games are you playing that are only 3 hours long? I've been playing FF4 for a month now, and even Jump Ultra Stars took me at least 4-5 hours. My wife has been playing Animal Crossing for over half a year now. For 20-30 bucks that's not a bad deal, seeing as you can go to a 2 hour movie for $12.

ハリセンボン

Nintendo and the 54 other companies are fighting a losing battle against piracy.

Good luck on trying to collect on the lawsuit. A lawsuit against a group of people based out of Hong Kong, China... Of all places, in CHINA LOL. They will have more luck trying to squeeze blood out of a stone than going through Chinese bureaucracy.

On a different note, the R4DS team are working on a new firmware that will brick all the counterfeit-R4s that are currently out in the market.

Ah, the irony... XD

大漢中

If they win, they'll probably tout it as a major victory and a serious blow to the piracy industry, but really, the publicity is just making more people aware of these carts (read: the carts that Nintendo hasn't gone after/doesn't know about).

Nedus

@verrius: Not true. I wouldent even own a DS nor that 'one game' if it was not for flashcarts. Why spend $150 for what 1-2-3 hours of fun? theres only a hand full of games that actually have some actual length to them.

DaFox

Additional comment: It wasn't until the publicity over the R4 started that I was aware of its existance and the articles stating how 'simple it was to use' is what interested me in buying one. Backwards effect if you ask em.

aevanko

after nintendo's e3 press conference, i think people have the right to steal from them.

ugh. awful.

zfleeman

@Flareslove: I don't completely agree with the "These people wouldn't have bought games anyways" argument. Last christmas, my wife got an R4 from a friend, and where we used to buy 1-2 DS games a month, now we buy 0. Instead of saying "why don't we buy the new XX" my wife says "why don't you download the new XX."

While I am not a fan of piracy, nor do I believe (like some people) that it is my god-given right to get things for free, I have never really looked down on piracy or R4s (especially because they are awesome for homebrews).

However, looking at my own experiences with them, and how my buying habits have changed, I have to admit that I feel that nintendo is in the right here.

As an aside, the R4 must be some sort of plague here in Japan. Every salaryman with a DS that I see has an R4 in there instead of a regular game cartridge. No wonder Nintendo wants to shut it down.

ハリセンボン

Does this mean the IPOD should be sued since it's most obvious function is to play illegally downloaded/converted MP3 files?

I wonder if the publicity they make over these lawsuits makes that more people aware of the existance of these products and the illegal uses they have...

aevanko

Make games cheaper or a good compilation packs. Back then NES games actually cost 5 bucks through the use of the famicom floppy disk drive. You just delete the game and exchange it for a new one. U.S. never got this famicom floppy drive. [en.wikipedia.org]

zkotaku

@Thorax: M3 and G5, They still make them. The R4 just really took off because it was really cheap and tied for the lead in features.

DaFox

I buy the setpiece DS games if I like them. I use my R4 for the rest. Seriously, look at how much shovelware there is on the DS. Some of the games I cannot imagine taking more than a day to code. Im not giving 30euro up for a handheld game that doesnt blow me away.

djlowballer

Nintendo itself probably doesn't care too much, since the bulk of their profits come from hardware sales. The 54 publishers are probably the driving force behind this suit.

Nedus

@mikevanpwn: "Oh please" is stunning logic. So is "Nintendo has the right to sue."

You know what Nintendo doesn't have? The right to win. They have to prove that the makers of a means are responsible for the damages of an end, which is an illogical conclusion and a fallacious one to jump to.

Also, the Demonoid downtime had nothing to do with Nintendo or ROMs. Good try, though.

All you need to say in order for people to agree with you is something to the effect of "I support efforts to thwart piracy" but instead you start making assumptions about what hardware is intended to do (something you could never know for certain, not being its creator) as opposed to what actual function serves.

Since many, many commenters on Kotaku are anti-piracy and blindly support even the most unjust and unethical schemes so long as the intentions are pure, you'll find lots of rallying support - but not from anyone who realizes that means do not equal ends, "oh please" notwithstanding.

UltraMagnus

@Jayl3w: hello fellow member.

mugenektr

@Flareslove: Wrong. People who buy flash carts *are* a potential market. They obviously have enough money to buy at least one game (since the cost of an R4 is in the range of a real game), and desire to play them, evidenced by the downloading of such games. To say that they don't have the desire to pay that much for a single game is a dishonest argument...they're only unwilling to pay that much when the alternative is cheaper. Take away the alternative, and at least some will be willing to use that same money for a single game.

@Prodigy_BE: You didn't (have to wait for PAL releases) anyway. The DS is region free, and there are a number of sites which specialize in importing games.

verrius

@mugenektr: Yes, they are indeed back.

Jayl3w

@Nedus: hahahah. i only use it when i am pooping :P just beat kirby recently.

mugenektr

I would also like to note that the only reason I have a DS in the first place was because of flashcarts like the R4.

I can see why they are upset as game sales are what matters, Not to mention they are not getting a piece of the very nice pie. The number of flashcart users must be ENORMOUS now considering even five after the R4 came out they were selling out the day of- at all major stores. $60 per card and shipments in the thousands per store thats noice... I'm sure in the U.S. flashcarts have sold more 'copies' than a good number of games.

DaFox

@mikevanpwn: they pulled it yes, but is it not back?

mugenektr

@Channing: i guess that whole retard thing was harsh, i apologize. but his statement was out of proportion.

mugenektr

If I played my DS more, I'd consider getting an R4, but meh. Besides, it's got a kickass dust layer on it. I wanna see how thick it'll get before I eventually decide to play it again.

Nedus

Then they'll make the M5, and the process will start all over again.

Thorax

@Prodigy_BE: DS owners never have to wait for region releases. Also, I seriously doubt the DS was founded on the prospect of piracy. Seems very far-fetched.

[ZTF]

You know, I'd never heard of these little beauties till now, thanks for suing them Nintendo, now I have a way to get my hands on Tetris DS without forking over almost $90 to buy it.

Funny world we live in, ain't it?

Jayl3w

This is clearly Nintendo's own fault. First they release a console with NO piracy protection, which has stellar sales because even my granny can pirate games on it, and now they're crying over lost money, to please 3rd party publishers.

Bullshit Nintendo! Just as the PS1 grew big on piracy, the DS did too. And you make money on every piece of hardware sold. So stop whining and tell publishers the truth. As in: this was kinda our plan, as piracy protection through software updates would mean a more expensive device, and less or no profit for us.

I got my R4, and I'm proud of it. Plays SCUMMvm too. And as a European, I don't have to wait for PAL releases anymore.

Prodigy_BE

@mugenektr: Who says no efforts are being made against the hosters? Demonoid pulled its servers for a while if I remember correctly.

mikevanpwn

@mugenektr:
Are you going to start calling people "gay" next as a way to insult people?

Personally I'm on the fence about this one. I don't pirating these games is fair at all for Nintendo but I do think they may be pursuing the wrong avenue.
Although, if people hear that R4 got their pants sued off by Nintendo it may halt other companies from making similar devices.
Trying to find and shut down sites that host those ROMs might sound easy enough at first but I'm sure if that actually were the case (easier and cheaper) then Nintendo would've done that.

Channing

@celery: you never downloaded anything that you did not have to pay for? or nobody has giving you software that was downloaded god knows where? your a hypocrite.

mugenektr

@DaFox: Oh. Thank you.

[ZTF]

@[ZTF]: [www.realhotstuff.com] Thats where I bought mine, Excellent service and highly recommended on the flashcart forums.

DaFox

I don't understand why they are so upset.

The market flash cards target are not potential customers anyway. They are the crowd that refuse to pay that much for games. No matter how awesome the games are.

What R4 DOES do is provide solid hardware sales for nintendo in countries that heavily pirate games anyway. Does nintendo really believe that taking away the means to pirate games will help them?

Just two days ago I saw 3 kids waiting for the bus with DS's, all with DS Xtremes in them. I thought back to my childhood when I was only able to afford 2 games for my huge Gameboy anyway.

Besides, I like being able to msn on the toilet from my ds.

Flareslove

@TheIrishNinja: hahah i guess. sure was a great device though, don't you agree?

mugenektr

@UltraMagnus: Oh please.

The R4 was made available beyond the homebrew crowd, I'm sure all those who bought it in retail were just dying to go home and use it legally.

mikevanpwn

Nintendo has every right to sue, but that doesn't mean their efforts aren't misguided. It would make more sense to go after the purveyors of such content, but in their claim, they don't seem to be disputing the legality of the content. Their beef is the uploading, it seems.

Still, I guess shutting down R4 is a more attainable goal than shutting down all the sites that host such content. Ultimately, I don't see it making a difference.

Nedus

@mugenektr: Pirates always project their guilt onto others. Enjoy your ride on denile.

celery

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: unless food.water.shelter? stealing is stealing right? you just contradicted everything you just said.

mugenektr

@nyaz:
The Pokémon Company is an affliate of Nintendo. They set up the company a few years back to handle the licensing and merchandising of Pokémon (the Pokémon Center stores, toys, card game, anime, etc.).
So, it's not really the same thing...

BPMπ

these topics are great. i appreciate those coming to the defense of the homebrew scene, just like when luke points out that freeloaders let you play valid imported discs, and then nintendo fanboys shit all over him anyway.

but still, we all know what a majority of these things (including mine) get used for. i mean, take this guy.

@mugenektr: haha, you know those other 54 companies might not be in as giving a mood as nintendo, though.

TheIrishNinja

@mikevanpwn: i understand that they have to right to sue. but its never going to stop. ever heard demonoid or isohunt? you know how much pirated stuff is on there? demonoid got shut down not to long ago, and now they are back. to me this is pointless. people are inventing stuff everyday.

mugenektr

@mugenektr: Luxuries, unless its food/water/shelter, You don't need it. Stealing what you don't need is wrong.

Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.

@mikevanpwn: But they aren't attacking the source of the problem. Go after the piraters and hosters of illegal content. As many people have pointed out, there are plenty of other cards available. Closing down one (even if it is the most popular one) probably won't have much of an impact.

[ZTF]

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: are you kidding me you retard? your comparing this to a ferrari? and dont act like u never pirated anything you idiot. think on both sides before you type.

mugenektr

Game pirating is a disease to this industry, and if you do it you are actively taking part in stunting its growth.

I don't care how much the industry is growing - I don't care how much money a certain company has - if games are being pirated, this industry will never be as big as it should be.

That is all.

phinehas

Isn't the Pokemon company Nintendo? That's like saying Afghanistan is part of the coalition of the willing in Iraq.

nyaz

@mugenektr: Just because you cant afford it doesnt make it legal. My reply was to Maldron and Madness for saying that the company isnt at fault for this.

There is no logic in arguing the prince point of DS games when were talking about a matter of a court dealing. Nintendo has the right to sue.

mikevanpwn

@mugenektr: *Insert multi-paragraphed flame here*

Some people can't afford a Ferrari, I think stealing isn't cool.

Unless you're stealing food to keep from dying, you're a worthless theif.

Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.

@mikevanpwn: Yes, please, shit all over the homebrew community and rant about something you clearly know nothing about

UltraMagnus

While I hate to see homebrew stuff shut down, I understand why this is happening. The site for R4 doesn't exactly try to hide the fact that it's made primarily for homebrew. If it had some other main purpose, but someone figured out it could be used for homebrew stuff, maybe the whole "guns don't kill people, people do" argument would hold water. As it stands, I don't think R4 will come out of this unscathed. But I'll cross my fingers.

At the very least, don't openly advertise that it supports homebrew games.

Nedus

@mugenektr:

Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.

@mikevanpwn: you kidding me? some people cannot afford to buy games for 34.99. I think its cool.

mugenektr

@Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.: Seriously. I don't understand why they don't use the money they are pissing away in this legal battle to attack rom sites. A simple search on Google brings up entire lists of them.

[ZTF]

Geez Nintendo what gives? Why don't you just get memory cards outlawed? That's where all your pirated ROMs are being kept, after all.

In other news, Adobe is being sued by every publisher in existence over the PDF format, which can be used to pirate written materials such as anarchist cookbooks and NUDIE MAGS!

UltraMagnus

@mikevanpwn: Controversial statement: playing games for free is a good intention.

adversity

Quick! Make knives illegal too! People are CUTTING PEOPLE!!!

People make wrongful decisions, not products, or companies that make simple products.

Gantz: Your Trusted Friend in Science.

@denki: Regrettably, "C'mon" isn't a valid legal stance. :p

Maldron

Whatever the company is clearly at fault. Releasing unlicensed software under the guise that its for legal uses. No one with good intentions buys these things.

mikevanpwn

this is bull shit. R4 is the best thing ever invented. Saved me lots of money. instead of 34.99 for each game you can get the r4 for 50 bucks and have millions of games. i understand why they are so angry because its taking away their business but still nintendo makes grips of money anyways. They still got the Wii which is still selling like hot cakes. Im pretty sure all those hardcore nintendo ds gamers have one lol.

mugenektr

@[ZTF]: Oh. Japan only. Then why can't I find these things >.>

[ZTF]

Well, sounds like I need to get one while I can! =/

My360broked

Hah. I was actually looking around for these things on Amazon, and wondering why I couldn't find any earlier.

[ZTF]

Looks like I'll have to buy a few hundred of them when I visit Akiba tomorrow so I can sell them on the black market in another year. Even though there is homebrew made for the DS that you can only play using R4 or similar devices, c'monnnnnnnn... those apps, while nice to tinker with, don't justify the R4 existence. It might be used as a legal point in court, but....c'monnnnnnnnnnnn.

denki

Good thing I've had mine for ages. ;D

Fadakar

Lol... this story made me want to get one myself now that I've read up on the R4... But like the first poster said, its not the companys fault people are using it for illegal roms and stuff.

Madness

Man, R4 must be selling like hotcakes for these 55 companies to take such action against them. And not M3, Cyclo, Supercard, Ackcard, etc...

BPMπ

Thank god Nintendo is finally trying to kill off the R4.

Lstormy10

What else can you do with one of these =\?

Katorok

This is coming from the company that sells hundreds of thousands of consoles every month. Still, what about other carts, like M3?

I also wonder if this will go through. I mean, it's the same concept as a modchip... the legality is a grey area.

I think they're just pissed about Dragon Quest :P

VieMort

So long as legitimate third-party programming such as "Colors!" exist that use the format, the manufacturers of the R4 shouldn't have to be held responsible for the choices made by a certain number of their consumers. Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and all that.

Maldron

what's really shocking to me is that Nintendo knew all about smart-carts and SD flash during the GBA-era nearly 10 years ago and didn't just release the DS with licensed flash storage.

Piracy would still be rampant, but at least DS owners could buy licensed smart-carts instead of graymarket. Nintendo could've made millions selling proprietary solid-state memory. but instead they feared piracy and missed the boat.

sadly, Nintendo is also scared of homebrew on the DS...

[en.wikipedia.org]

rainofwalrus

I tend to believe that most of the stuff people download and play using the R4DS is stuff they wouldn't have otherwise paid for. Obviously that's not always the case, and even if it was, using an R4 to pirate games is clearly wrong. I can imagine the R4 is hurting software sales on DS as the thing is cheap and embarrassingly easy to use. I think most people don't bother with pirating because it's such a major hassle, but that's not the case with the R4.

MSUSteve

oh nintendo & co, stop complaining about your losses when your clearly pullin in more than everyone else. it reminds me of the south park episode on music piracy. "Lars wanted a 260 sqft swimming pool at his sixth summer house, but because of piracy, he'll have to settle for the 230 sqft pool." I understand that most of the smaller software companies that dont make that much on their usually crappy ds games have a right to bitch a little, but nintendo has way too much profit as it is.

Mricci424

@MattB:
If the owner has lost nothing then where exactly does the ethical problem of this "taking" lie?

The ethical problem lies in the use of their IP. They, as owners of that IP, have a right to determine distribution of it; yes, that even includes artificially restricting supply. If you don't like it, the ethical way to fight it is to not buy and not play the game.

Even if software pirates do not take something physical from them (a box, cart, etc), they use IP that they have no entitlement to. If a pirate says he's taken nothing, it is equivalent to saying that the value of the product lies completely in the packaging, and the value of the IP itself is zero. As soon as he places some sort of value on the IP, a pirate has taken something. And, of course, the pirate does place value in the IP. (Otherwise, why would he downloaded it?)

Is piracy equivalent to a lost sales? Of course not. But not planning on buying a game does not give a pirate the moral entitlement to play with the stolen information. The amount of 'harm' is debatable, but the owners of the IP have the right to demand that any user should only have permission to use the IP under their distribution methods; hence the numbers related thought of as 'lost sales'.

Even so, back on topic, it'll be interesting to see if the R4 becomes a Napster or an iPod. I'm betting on the latter.

ninjafetus

I'll admit it: [I know a friend who] use[s] an R4 for that purpose, but [they] do feel guilty from time to time.

Then [they] see how much money [they]'ve saved and feel less bad. But oh yeah, I don't see how it's NOT illegal. Nearly everyone who has one (or a similar device) uses them for pirating games. Some of the games [this person] [has] on [their] R4 though are games that [they] already physically had. The others are either hard-to-find games, games that [they] wanted to try out but weren't terribly interested in buying, or expensive new games, like those $39.99 Square-Enix ones...

The iPod argument is a bit moot, since an iPod's main official purpose is to play legally bought music from iTunes.

One big advantage though is some of the mods you can get for a ROM. [This person] had an legit imported copy of Jump Ultimate Stars, but [he/she] was able to find a ROM and patch online that let [them] play the game in English, which is a huge deal for the story mode.

But even if the R4 gets taken off the market, there will be plenty of alternatives available. This seems to be a bigger problem in Asian markets, though, if I remember a Kotaku article or two on the subject. The R4 is apparently all over the place there.

As for [my friend], at least [they] got [their] R4 before this starts to go down.

KenzinFive

I don't have a DS, but I think the R4 is a great little piracy tool. You can play all of the titles that you'd never be able to play normally. Plus, hey, free games. And everyone has one of them, it seems, including a lot of my non-gamer non-tech friends, and similarly unsavvy boarders on other forums I frequent. And that's the problem.

It's mainstream. Minimum, sales have to be around 100k (this ex