I believe the COH rest system was only if you had that negative XP in place. If you died, or a team member died, you would be penalized XP. If you logged off and waited a day or two, the penalty XP would go away eventually. Kind of like a reverse rest XP.

Solaris79

@FlashIV: Basically, if you log out of a character for a period of time or go AFK in an inn or "sanctuary" area, you go into "rested" mode. In "rested" mode, you gain double XP from things such as mobs etc. The longer your are AFK or logged off that character, the more rested XP you will gain when you come back.

WGSXFrank

@Fert: CoH/CoV never had a rest system in place.

Boudabras

What is this "rest system"

FlashIV

uh not to nitpick here..but didn't City of Hero's have a rest-like system in place a full 6 months or so before WoW? I remember there being incentive to log off and log on at a later time like that...gawd so long ago I can't remember the details.

Fert

@FreakyFavabean: shh!! you don't want me to remind you about little big planet do you!

excel_excel

If more people believed in this, maybe we'd still be getting some good 2D games.

FreakyFavabean

Good execution over innovation is always better.
Because innovation doesn't mean it'll please everyone.
But good execution most likely will.

pulyx

I partially agree (about 75%), I always believe it's cool when games are innovated in a good way but for the most part I've always wanted sequels to lack innovation. When you like a game then it's not always a good thing for them to be messing around with it for the sequel. I do like to see more than just a plain sequel being made though.

Llost

I thought this was going to be aout the execution of so many game titles, studios and jobs ActivisionBlizzard are doing right now.

Bad times for those developers...

Murdoc

The rest system was one of the greatest MMO implementations ever. Damn near every MMORPG has it now. I'm a one main/no alt kinda guy when it comes to MMOs, but I like to take a few days off every once in awhile. Having the rest system made me WANT to go back after not playing for two days. Instead of just saying meh and have the "vacation" linger into something over a week.

SpishackCola

This actually reminds me of something I read in an interview with one of the lead devs on No One Lives Forever. Basically, the interviewer was pointing out that the game was, setting and story aside, a fairly standard, but very well executed FPS.

The dev replied with something along the lines of, "You don't have to innovate to be original."

I do agree that originality and innovation have become so emphasized in our society that we tend to forget the other side of the coin, execution. Fetishize innovation too much, and what you get is the new Alone in the Dark: Plenty of novel ideas, trapped in a mess of broken gameplay so no one can enjoy or appreciate them.

Ilmyrn

They did the same thing with Starcraft. They introduced very little that was actually new or innovative- in many ways, it actually called back to an earlier generation of RTS games- but they just sat down and did it better than anyone else. And that's why you can still found it being played on college LANs across the world. Or absolutely freakin' everywhere you look, if you live in South Korea.

I Think We're Property

GO EXECTION!!! I mean c'mon people WOW may not be innovative but god damn is it executed well, I have a new way to describe games I like now!
"I always felt that Super Monkey Ball was well executed"

excel_excel

Blizzard is arguably the best developer in the world when it comes to taking an existing formula, perfecting said formula, and then polishing it beyond belief.

Their games are rarely first to the table with innovation, but the implementation is so solid that it doesn't matter. Their games are so good and leave such a lasting impression that many times, the games FEEL incredibly innovative (even if they aren't).

Keep it up Blizzard.

Caseus

Just don't be afraid to copy something someone else innovated if it makes your game that much better!

*cough* Lord of the Rings' armor sets where one is your physically shown armor, one is your equipped armor you receive bonuses from.

*cough again* Kunark's epic weapon quests that were massive in size and ultimately lead to a weapon tailored for each class that was a heralding display of your dedication to completing the insanely long quest line.

;)

Slust

Hahaha, this is hilarious to read. Infact, probably about 8 hours ago or so I was talking to my friend about why I wouldn't be coming back to WoW. I said that there was "no innovation" so it got boring.
It also didn't help that my main was a rogue. At least they're changing the energy mechanic a little bit in WotLK. Oh well, as long as most of thier user-base is content, that's good for them.

Channing

The first year of your MMO would like to talk to you about "execution." Seriously, I got at least two weeks of free days. Patch day was always a clusterfuck. Good times.

Maldron

they know wht there doing there the big facy guys in the suits they know how to make money

jatt510

I know people who created 5 to 6 characters and just traded them off as rest xp wore off. Me? When I played I just played one character to death. But I did love rest xp for my alts, it helped. Though they really should have added a system that penalized people who played too much and not just rewarded those who didn't play much. After x amount of hours you get 75% xp

MajinMexican

I loved the rest system. It was awesome for all my alts!

Boudabras

I thought World of Warcraft was very innovative at it's release, and throughout it's current cycle. I have had experience playing Lineage II, SWG, and CoH - and I can say World of Warcraft is definitely the best, and very innovative and different.

TheDaftPunk

@MajinMexican: "Though they really should have added a system that penalized people who played too much and not just rewarded those who didn't play much. After x amount of hours you get 75% xp"

That's only a good idea if you hate having a successful business. It isn't and shouldn't be up to Blizzard or any other game entities (Publishers, developers, retailers, etc) to worry about how you're using your time. If I'm paying money to play a game, I better be getting full access to the game the full time. As it is, you're paying while subscribed whether you play on any particular week, day, hour, etc. The last thing anyone needs is for the game companies telling us we're using their product too much and limiting access to content you're paying for.

NinjaMarion

@Slust:

EQ2 did the whole appearance armor thing before LOTRO - but both systems use the same concept; wearing armor that doesn't change your stats and is simply for avatar customization.

AdeptVoice

Blizzard do make great games by refining basic foundations and mechanics. However, I have always felt in ALL the blizzard games I have played, I wish there was a bit MORE meat added to make it even better.

Examples in WoW: more PVP stuff, more unique character/RP options.

Diablo 3: Better campaign story-line that lasts for more than 20ish levels, game editor for custom stuff like WC3.

Lokku

@excel_excel: What Little Big Planet is doing seems beyond innovation. I can't even really think of a word for it... it just looks perfect. I think i kinda forgot it was 2D because of the endless possibilities in it. Still, I won't be satisfied until they make Donkey Kong Country 4.

FreakyFavabean

@oddgit: Polish is the wrong word. When you polish something you make it smooth and shiny, but by removing material, not adding to it. A gentle grind, if you will. The 'rest' idea didn't come from removing ideas, it came from looking at what was missing and filling the gaps. More like fixing a wall.

In other words, Blizzard was plastered.

Ghede

Innovation and Blizzard should never really be used in the same sentence to describe blizzard. They take existing ideas and polish the hell out of them and make the ideas more friendly to mass consumption.
I stopped playing wow recently after playing sense the early betas, and thinking, wow,i have done this same daily almost every day for a good part of a year, and realizing nothing that spectacular was planned for the xpack. Oh well.
I think blizzard fears too mush innovation in WoW or other games they make, they have such a vocal fanbase that as soon as they do anything outside of the generic blizzard feel fanboys go nuts and start online petitions about how Diablo 3 is too bright, or that druids shouldnt be better tanks then warriors.

oddgit

So other than the rest system and using Bittorrent for the patcher, can someone point out a few places it innovated compared to existing MMOs?

I played for a couple of months, but got out of it because all I saw was Lineage 2 with Quake 2 graphics...

Though I agree that people playing WoW don't neccesarily WANT innovation. I'm sure they want something to mix things up, but change it too far and you lose purists.

fuchikoma

Does anybody else get peeved when reviewers knock a game for not innovating? I have for years, especially when there is clearly a double standard when some classic franchises get hailed for being "traditional" while others are derided for being so.

I understand why reviewers get this way. When your job necessitates that you play and review 5-10 games a month, then you will get burned out on the monotony of reappearing game mechanics and features. However, the average gamer does not play 10 new games every month. As a result, features and mechanics that are boring to a reviewer (because they have already appeared in previous games) are still new and fresh to many gamers.

Lixie

Very few if any games in the last 20 years have been innovated.

A few that spring to mind:
Prince of Persia: SoT changed what we thought of platformers. Half Life 2 changed the FPS space with physics. Portal again changed FPS and Platformers with its tweak of physics. Super Mario 64 changed what we thought of games and what we expected from controls. WoW changed a great many things about the MMO space. Most of all IMO the user interface. The original Metal Gear Solid changed what we expected of "Cinema Scenes" and voice acting.

But all of these were minor tweaks that made a huge difference.

People tend to think that innovation has to be some broad streak that totally revolutionizes the game world when in reality it's just a few minor tweaks to existing formulas.
Daily quests in WoW in and of themselves were a HUGE innovation. After I had done all of my "Outland" quests in WoW for gold I was left short of my Epic Flying Skill by about 3k gold. Not to mention I was looking to maxing my Leather-working skill. So what did I do? I farmed the same mobs over and over and over again for materials to sell on the auction house for gold. While dailies may not be the most fun I've ever had it sure beats farming materials and fighting Ni Hao for materials.

k1dsmoke

@TheDaftPunk: WoW can be the best, but it's not innovative - that's the point of the post. WoW didn't do anything new. It didn't reinvent the wheel. It was a "generic" MMO taken and polished to near perfection in almost every area, much like with their RTS games and how they barely added anything new - only perfected what came before.

KirbyMorph

in fact CoH/CoV had the exact opposite. CoH had a debt system.

The rest system is a system that when you log off or more importantly log your character off in an Inn or friendly major city your character received a "rested bonus" which over time would build up to a level and a half of double experience per kill.

So you knew if your character had been sitting for a week or more that you could log on and level very quickly. It's a small incentive to come back to the game.

Now as oppose to that was City of Heroes debt system in which through death you earned experience debt.

Now it's funny cause I had a relapse where I wanted to play CoH again. So I re-initiated my account and as soon as I logged on I had have half a level of experience debt. Without killing one mob I immediately canceled my subscription and have never played CoH again.

k1dsmoke

This is kind of thinking is why i like blizzard games so much. Everyone else is so focused on reinventing the wheel that they end up falling flat on core/poor content

Starplate

Hah! Yes, the rest system is great, but he didn't seem to mention it's impact on the business model for MMOs.

The best case scenario for an MMO is tons and tons of people paying subscription fees, but not actually playing. Bandwidth costs $$! EverQuest learned this the hard way...

Of course it's impossible for this to be the case, but any incentive you can give the player to log out saves you money and in the end increases your net profit.

Many of the 2nd and 3rd gen MMOs have not only this rest mechanic, but additional incentives to put the game down until tomorrow.

Vergobret

@oddgit: @Lokku: Exactly - Blizzard has always been known for how well it made its games, in terms of balance, accessibility, and appeal to both the casual and the hardcore. The likes of Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo, etc. were extremely well executed games that set a pretty high bar for the rest of the industry.

And that's not a bad thing. There are innovators in the industry, and there are executors, and I'd much rather Blizzard stick with what they've proven they can do in refining existing ideas, than for them to try their hands on making something completely new and potentially crappy.

Datheron

One isn't "over" the other. The best games do their best to strike a balance between the two...Rock Band is a great example of this.

KaneRobot

@Vergobret: Man, sometimes I really wish I could edit my posts... ~sigh~

Vergobret

And that is the words of an industry insider. Notice how much different it is from the words of fanboys and haters.

darvos

Hahaha! Really Kaplan? Playing for a long time is not a good thing?? Is that why you designed 25-man raids in the original release to take 5 hours of continuous raiding a night to get shinies? Is that why the original PvP system could be topped only by skilless, unemployed people? Because that's how the game was until someone stepped in and whacked you in the head...

Ramonskito

I like this thinking.

I have MANY friends who'll listen to music purely because it's original, not because it's good. I don't listen to music for innovation...I listen to good music. If it's both, ideal! But a wasted hippie farting into a didgeridoo overtop an ocean seascape, while original, doesn't equal good.

Execution > Innovation

Rjak

Blizzard just makes sure that it gets the basic down solid. It seems like a lot of developers try to do all this fancy stuff, but don't spend enough time just trying to nail the basics or solving basic problems inherent in the respective genres. Blizzard does this and it shows. Polished. Complete. Solid, FUN gameplay. Rarely is there any fancy sort of innovation.

Gotta love Blizzard.

Quilt

Dune 2 came before Warcraft, EQ came before WoW, lots of stuff cambe before Diablo, etc.

Still, I agree. I liked Warcraft much better than C&C because of the effort put into the game, the same can be said of their following titles.

thefremen

@MajinMexican: In China, that actually happens. After 5 hours of continuous play, your character goes into a third "Tired" mode. You gain only 50% xp and rep during that time. That feature was actually ask for by the Chinese government. Cooky, huh?

FalconMbuster

Hell knows they've been trying to execute the hunter and paladin classes properly for years, to the extent of changing them both quite drastically with each expansion. (This is a good thing.)

Ladi

Well, I'm glad they admit it. I've always been peeved by the fame of Blizzard for games that are, essentially, fantastically tweaked mechanics of what's already been done. WoW epitomizes this notion -- there was nothing new or innovative about it upon its release (or even all these years later), it just plain ol' executes old ideas better than its predecessors.

Which is great and all, but being so very aware of the redundancy of their games really ruins the value for me. It works great for the mass market, but hardened gamers (and I imagine this is why critics complain) need something a bit more ingenius to whet their appetite.

OmegaVader

@OmegaVader: exactly how i feel about blizz games. I need more meat!

Lokku

@Ramonskito: ROFL. So true.

SeraphX2

Innovation is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't sell games. It generates hype before a game comes out, but in the end it is not what makes a game successful and game companies are EXTREMELY mindful of this.

Innovation is what generates the initial rush to the local GameStop. Innovation is what generates the long forums posts on the associated forum. Polish, execution, and solid gameplay is what keeps your game on the shelf at that same GameStop 5-10 years later. And that is all a game company can hope for. Because in the end every game company is a business. And that means they have people to pay, 401Ks to mantain, benefits to provide, and the long term health of the company to consider. If their product looks good on paper and generates hype that will mean squat if you can't sell it 2-3 months after release.

That being said, Blizzard's model works because when they do innovate it is only once they have nailed down everything else in their system. Having been playing the beta for the next xpac I can say that they are doing a phenomenal job of freshening up the existing systems. Stuff that doesn't look innovative or new on paper, but in execution gives you a fresh new experience when compared to what you've already gone through if you've played the game. They know what works about killing 10 moo-cows and turning them in to a quest giver. And honestly...its the same. But having perfected the moo-cow killing formula, they're going to great lengths to make moo-cow killing more interesting. And it's working. I want to kill those moo-cows. I want to kill them so bad...and not because of XP or quest rewards. Because they've added just one more piece of story. One slightly different mechanic to the moo-cow killing.

Its a testament to their ability to get inside the player's head and figure out exactly what will drive them from quest to quest...from area to area.

Haters and Fans can say whatever they want, but there are still a lot of people playing and enjoying it...and those who decide to go on to the next xpac will not be disappointed.

PixelPenumbra

Innovation is ludicrously overrated. If Innovation was truly the best thing a game can strive for, no-one would play retro games. I'm with Blizzard on this one.

Pombar

I would have to disagree with some of this article. Considering that FFXI, Lineage 2, Everquest, Meriden59, Ultima Online and quite a few others released before WoW. Also it seems that WoW copied more from those games then it innovated on its own. And I seen more games copy previous games then copy WoW. Seems like developers are going back to more lesser known MMO games and cleaning up those interfaces for their own use. WoW interface seems to be more of a copy of other games with a Diablo type theme skin then a Warcraft type feel of cheesy graphics.

To be honest I think it only comes down to if the game story is worth it and if the game is fun. For example FFXI had a very impressive story. Or Ragnarok was just plain fun for the user. Sadly after trying out WoW I was more disappointed by the game then excited. Only good thing I can say about WoW is that I wasn't as disappointed in playing WoW when I played Vanguard Saga of Heros. Personally I still don't know what Sony was thinking on releasing that pos of a game.

cippycup