A repost of what I wrote on the Wired comments page:

Dear Mr. Reagan,

You fail to understand the crucial difference between targeting a child under the age of 17 for future recruitment and actually recruiting children into the military. Your very own description on the UN Optional Protocol states that "it protects the rights of children under 16 from military recruitment and deployment to war."

The game America's Army may indeed raise the interest of young people in joining the military. Its simulations of combat could be called realistic. However, a child playing and enjoying one of these games is not 'recruited' into the army.

As defined by the American Heritage Dictionary, 'recruitment' is the strengthening of armed forces by enlistment or the engagement of persons for service - meaning that it involves actually joining the armed forces, not just being exposed to and becoming interested in them. Can you please provide of an example of a child under 17 who played America's Army and was recruited at this illegal age?

Additionally, you quote the American Civil Liberties Union stating that children as young as 11 are 'targeted for recruitment.' You then state that by 'exposing children under 17 to recruitment, the United States military violates the Optional Protocol.' One would then deduce that the Optional Protocol makes it illegal to 'target' children for recruitment - in direct contradiction to your later explanation of the protocol stating that it protects children under 16 for 'military recruitment.' Thus, you fail to distinguish between targeting and expressing interest in children from actually bringing children into the armed services.

Perhaps you should avoid quoting sources with major ideological axes to grind against the military like the ACLU. You quote many of their numerous unsubstantiated claims regarding Ubisoft and America's Army - for example, what proof is there that this game 'explicitly targets boys 13 and older' or that it 'trains them to use weapons' (I've played the game and have no idea how to load a rifle).

It is clear that your antipathy towards this game is simply a product of your ideological bias against the military complex and war. I would be happy to engage in you further debate about the real political issues but will no longer respond to your argument that fails to stand up to reason and logic.

Sincerely,
Connor
A highschooler

cpmui99

The video is not showing up for me, the name is "Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo for those interested in these and related topics.

JoshReflek

Funny thing about UN law is that they're more like guidelines and a country doesn't have to follow them. Not to mention this is an absurd claim, I can fully understand their qualms but the way they're attacking this is completely misguided.

Besides, Ubisoft has a whole lot of war and army games that are better than AA =P

Absent Blue

The war budget is being used to fund this game's development.

The war budget comes from corporate interests, not your income taxes. (which are illegal anyway. [uk]

+ Watch video

It is marketed to children to entice them to join the army, which is controlled by corporations such as the Federal Reserve.

The game does not accurately depict end results from serving in the millitary, such as being considered "property" for the rest of your life, or themes as to how those who mistakenly want to protect their nation are duped into thinking that being an "expendable" soldier can better the lives of those at home.

The article is disrespectful of the subjectmatter, discrediting it's own validity by paraphrasing the protest's themes and motives instead of using direct quotes and actual facts.

Who is it then that desires to quiet this voice of dissent that would encourge this mock journalism?

Slander is powerful.

The Federal Reserve runs and owns the government with its power to print fiat money, and by extension owns you and your inability to climb out of perpetual debt for money it loans to the U.S. govt at interest.

The implications of a video game used to simulate or glorify participation in the war machine, are offensive to say the least.

JoshReflek

Legal or not, I always thought this game was wrong in a couple of ways. Glad someone finally said something about it.

albenotron

To everyone who reaction is along the lines of "OMG just don't play"...they're not protesting along the lines of standard "video game violence = the devil!". They're protesting that tax payer dollars are being spent to develop a recruitment tool targeting, among others, underage children. I'm generally not one to cry fowl that "o look, its *obviously* being marketed towards a demographic they're not talking about"...but the game *is* rated Teen. When even Counter Strike rates Mature...that looks like a deliberate attempt to put out a product that a younger demographic can play. If this were meant to be purely a recruitment tool targeted at those over the age of 17, you'd expect them to at least earn an M rating. People complained when cigarettes were marketed explicitly to children under the age of 18; why should it be so outrageous to complain about something that's much more immediately dangerous being marketed to the same demographic?

verrius

Having grown up in the Bay Area, I know there are people there who will protest just about anything, so this doesn't surprise me. As for the game, I think that there's just as good a chance it will disuade someone from joining as there is it will convince someone to enlist.

notoriousEIC

@Cloral: Actually, yes. Unless they actually dress a 14 year old up in a uniform and give him a gun (ROTC doesn't count for these purposes), they haven't actually been "recruited", just "marketed to."

I'll leave discussion of whether the X-Games qualifies as a "children's show" for another, no doubt more amusing and snark-tastic, time.

I Think We're Property

@cynopt:
at least we can still reach accross the aisle for a combination handshake/crotchkick despite political differences *drunken salute*

ZinkO: Beat Incursion

@Ashurahori:

America's Army is free. Or are you talking about the console game that was really bad?

CCCombobreaker

@GunSavior: Add Halo to that list and change the age to 21 and I'll agree.

TheRealLameDuck

Dammit where's my Ally Sheedy picture McWhertor? that's just slacking on the job.

Weirdwolf

War might not be a game but WarGames is a mighty fine film.

Emiat

Dammit, I'm liberal, pinko, commie, homo-lovin elitist scum and even I want to run up and crotch-kick this lot.
There are too many things idiotic about this to even approach, so I'm just going to resort to a semi-relevant George Carlin quote:
They're trying to ban toy guns, but they're KEEPING THE FUCKING REAL ONES.

cynopt

Irrelevant since many other more violent games are available to lower ages.

The game might be army propaganda, but it's nore more intrusive than all the OTHER army propaganda.

Plus, if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.

Ashurahori

@I Think We're Property: That was my reaction as well. Though I don't know anything about the U.N. law, so maybe I'm wrong, it's hard to imagine they saw fit to outlaw marketing to children. There are armies and quasi-armies in the world that actually do enlist and conscript kids, and that's what I'm sure they were targeting.

I remember going as a little kid going into recruitment centers and they'd give me free bumber stickers, brochures, posters, etc.

jeangrae

@Grumpz®: You couldn't even download the game in its first conception. You had to go to a recruiter's office and pick up the CD, which I promptly did.

Therefore, I have no idea what the fuck this is all about, if your kid is old enough to download the game; he should be mature enough to balance his perspective in life and the priorities. If you were interested in the Army, this game could fuel that ambition; if your playing it just for the great multiplayer aspect, then thats what it is.

Goddamn Americans, pampering kids and whatnot; this is why physical punishment should be allowed in schools and the life pitfalls/consequences should be taught as early as elementary schools; like most educational institution over in Asia.

PsycheE

Haha, reminds me of those horrible Navy ads in movies.

"Brought to you by the US Navy! In Episode 1, the Navy fights terrorism and saves America!"

Yup. And in episode 2, they realize they made a big ass mistake. Sorry for the big spending, guys. Our bad, our bad.

Mesren_Makai

I guess Obama's holy following had a day off.

I'm just kidding...

NOT! :P

HaydenTenno

@DigiMish:

Yeah so if it lags out there its all over man

tooji

Who cares. Makes you think people just like protesting for the sake of protesting.

kojirodensetsu

What about ROTC??

Goatfish

Lol @ san francisco

CCCombobreaker

The difference between AA and other war games like Counter Strike or Call of Duty is that it's *meant* to be a way to recruit people, to make the army seem cool. It is not, primarily, meant for entertainment.

Although I do agree, sort of, with the protestors, I think the best one can do in this case is to simply not play the game.

SicariusIV

@mfwahwah:
until you see the damage decals, you haven't lived.

ZinkO: Beat Incursion

Yay, more useless antiwar groups trying to make themselves noticed by he world.

Amazon_Chris

[www.ctrlaltdel-online.com]

Search for "america's army"

It's pretty funny :D

mfwahwah

I... I don't even know what to say to people who lack common sense. I really don't know how to react to non-gamers doing things like this. It seems like its obvious what the difference between games and life is.

How can you consider it recruitment unless the person doesn't realize that dieing and being shot will actually hurt out of the game. What you want to change the teen rating to mature? THATS what this is about? There aren't any larger issues for you people to fumble around with?!

Shykin

@mfwahwah: I also heard you get photo-realistic bone breaking kinetic feedback too.

watch out Thirdspace force feedback gaming vest. your days are numbered.

Onizuka-GTO

Shut the fuck up.

GameCasa

Why do they have to act like such Babiez?

Struct09

@I Think We're Property: What about all the ads the army has on TV? Many of them are during programs that children might watch (the recently-televised X Games come to mind). Wouldn't that fall under the same category?

Cloral

I kind of expected to see something about GRAW or RS:V since those were pretty popular and based on the military (kinda). But America's Army? Who would've thought..

Also, this story makes me think of this (watch at 2:20):

+ Watch video

"I kinda wanted to join army, it's like FPS except with better graphics." LOL

JoRo1986

Americas Army, the one on the PC anyways, was fun game. It didnt make me want to join the army. Why bother when you can sit on your ass and play all day to get the same thing?

Although, in the real army, the server doesn't reset every tuesday at 2 in the morning...

Oggy

Real war has much better graphics. The particles effects are top notch, I hear.

mfwahwah

wow are the idiots? i love the AA but it doesn't make me wana join the army.

ZetaCrossfire

I don't think it technically counts as recruiting if they aren't actually, you know, recruited.

I mean, you could argue that they're marketing to an under 17 demographic, but if they still won't let you sign up and carry a gun until the established age limit, they aren't violating the law.

Just sayin'.

I Think We're Property

Yeah! People under 17 should only be allowed to play counter-strike!

GunSavior

It's still wrong to have recruiters in game talking up the army to kids that download it.

Grumpz®

considering that most of my experience with the game consisted of getting wounded, frantically running around crying for a medic, then realizing that most of my team was already dead and the enemies were slowly closing in on my inevitable kill... I'm not sure where the portrayal of "unrealistic badassery" lies.

Hoboman725

What do you mean there's no respawns in real life!?

DigiMish

That's right; War isn't a game. Nobody dies in games.

Candlejack

Wow, only in San Francisco.

JoRo1986

@sisdei:

"Look, the federal reserve doesn't keep you in debt, you yourself do. "

I mean national debt.

"And please divulge on those all-mighty corporate interests that, wait, PAY for the war? "

Watch the movie in my first post for this answer.
or i can paraphrase it here for you:
Our military spending is directly funded by the amount of money collected from corporate taxes.

JoshReflek

I guess war is not a movie and war is not a book as well. I'm pretty sure that unless they are not mentally gifted they can realise that the army is serious, the intense training they'll go through will probably make them rethink any decisions based on games.

Anyone else make the ironic link that the army actually use Xbox 360 controllers for some of their equipment, it's seen in a British army recruitment advert.

feral_nick

@JoshReflek: People like attacking people such as yourself due to a large population of people that believe in what you believe also believe in stupid crap like how the US government cause 9/11 even though that's been proven false.

I'm not saying what you believe in is wrong (you sound like a Paulite and I'm one too). Just stating why people love the hater aid.

kojirodensetsu

@sisedi:

your comments only attack my character, you also avoid all the issues.

Try to respond with some reason as to why the information i presented is false, instead of trying to be sensationlistic with snarky humor. Unless that is the limit of your congnitive reasoning ability, then by all means, flame on.

JoshReflek

God I hate San Francisco.

kgetz3

@runandgun: They spend money on ads too, one of the biggest marketing bombs ever, they just don't work. I agree though, they should spend their money on what matters, the troops and the bullets they plunge into heartless scumbags.

Everyone knows the Army and Marines are out there, we don't need reminders. I don't know who convinced them we did.

sisedi

@verrius: The difference between cigarettes and the army is kids can get their hands on smokes (a common way is to get someone older to buy them for the kid or taking one from a parent or something). But kids can't join the army at all. Your older brother can't sneak you into the army.

kojirodensetsu

I'm a game developer and ex-Ubisoft, and although the SF protesters seem unable to argue something coherently, I share their feeling of unease at Ubisoft's association with AA.

Yeah yeah, so AA is not realistic and it's not that great of a game. The point, though, is that it is a) developed by the US Army as an overt marketing tool for recruitment, and b) is funded by the military budget.

Now, you can argue whether it's morally right for a Government to reach a demographic we all know is skewed to below 18.

But then there's Ubisoft. It's obvious when looking at GR and R6 that they care about making 'realistic' games with no real regard to the implications of making wargames. Check EndWar (which looks amazing) for another glorification of war in the name of videogame entertainment. Now, that is STILL fair and good. Black Hawk Down sure was an entertainment product, and it glorified war in its own way (I'm not saying they made Somalia "cool", but they certainly made it heroic and entertaining.)

But... when you're partering with the US ARMY to publish their RECRUITMENT TOOL to other platforms than the PC... Sorry, but there are ethical implications here.

It might be that Ubisoft is on solid moral ground. All I'm saying is, it's worth questioning and debating.

Triseult

@Kaadian:

No one is being recruited with america's army. Thats what people apparently do not understand. They're being MARKETED TO. Much like a comic book or commercial would do. When you play the game you are not illegally recruited into the military.

CCCombobreaker

@cluster1990: Yup, we're rolling in those trillions of I.O.Us right now, feels sooo gooo- wait, we owe that money? #$%#!!!

sisedi

@cccombobreaker:

It is no mystery that "America's Army" (the game) was DESIGNED from the start to indoctrinate the ideals held by the millitary industrial complex into impressionable minds.
My other statement has to do with a person who truly wants to 'serve their country and do the right thing', but is actually hurting themselves by not knowing what they're getting into by doing so.

It's indicitive of your fear for truth that you attempt to brand someone as 'one of those guys' without refuting anything that was said.

It is a fact that an unopportioned tax on income is illegal, if you're so convinced to this statement's innacuracy, than surely you can show me the law which makes a person liable to pay it?

Did you watch that video? It's not tough to follow.
It has credible people discussing an issue, can you participate with something greater than ad hominem attacks on my character?

Upholding the constitution is not a conspiracy, neither is paying attention to events that attempt to constrict peoples rights and freedoms.

You sound as though you're convinced of an argument, without any reason for it. Are to completely devoid of logic? Please, share how you arrive at your conclusion on this issue, if you can.

JoshReflek

@sarcasmOD: Its unlikely that the T is related much to money concerns; the original PC game, which was a free download, and not intended to make a profit, was also rated T. While the T rating probably didn't hurt in getting the 360 incarnation of the game published, the game itself was not developed with the idea of profit in mind.

verrius

I'm with the protestors...not because of the video game claims. But the fact that they are spending our fucking tax dollars on a video game. Fuck the Army and the government for spending tax dollars on that shit instead.

runandgun

@sarcasmOD: Hey idiot! You don't have to pay for the game. Why didn't you check that BEFORE you went on a rant.

Crap.

sarcasmOD

@cluster1990:

Oh man you sure told all of us. Thanks for opening our eyes to the truth. it's the corporations man. The war machine man.

CCCombobreaker

Well seeing as the USA is still NOT a signatory to the UN Children's Rights Convention this really isn't that surprising.

Kaadian

@r1nce:

I think you will find that the preferred term in the D.O.D. is "sunshine units".

Weirdwolf

war isn't a game its a way of making money. get the fuck used to that people of America and enjoy your "war on terror"

cluster1990

I mentioned this over at Wired, and I'll mention it here. They should have been over at Sega of America HQ up the block and protested their inability to make a new Daytona USA game. Just sayin'...

twinturbo2

@verrius: I absolutely agree they went for a T rating to market to a younger demographic. But in my opinion, the WHY of it is not to get kids interested in the military, but to make money. T games, in general, sell much better than M games because there are a few people out there who don't buy M games behind their parents back or the parents actually monitor what their children are playing.

sarcasmOD

@CCCombobreaker: Thanks, yours was great too.

cpmui99

@JoshReflek: I assume you're one of those that made their own tinfoil hats because you stick it to the man, where it hurts!

Look, the federal reserve doesn't keep you in debt, you yourself do. If you have a shitty insecure job and a stupid lifestyle, getting a mortgage is not going to work out for you.

And please divulge on those all-mighty corporate interests that, wait, PAY for the war? This just in, Kraft foods spots excellent local for new cheese factory, problem? It's in Iraq and they have no way to get there! War time muthaf*ckers!

Kraft CEO: *dials president Bush* Hey pordgy, we need another war, pronto...

Prez: No problem cheese man, I lov yur EZmac, even I can mek it!

sisedi

@cpmui99:

Fantastic post. Comment of the week.

CCCombobreaker

But joining the army is totally rad!

r1nce

@JoshReflek:

Hmm so not only do you think that the video game will brainwash kids into joining the army, but you also believe that everyone joining is being tricked into it and none of them believe they are serving their country?

You know what actually forget it. I was gonna have a discussion with you but then I saw that you brought up that you believe taxes are illegal. You're one of those guys. Ok. Well have fun thinking that you've figured it all out and were just all blind sheep.

You are very funny. You should consider doing standup. Or better yet make a scary conspiracy video for youtube filled with grainy footage, scary music, and you talking.

Itll be awesome!

Cheers.

CCCombobreaker

It's funny how one of the related topics is "America's Army player saves life".

ircmaster

@Absent Blue:

It is rather sweet that they believe that the U.S. is still bothered about obeying international law.

Weirdwolf

On topic, i'm not sure why exactly anyone would want to join the army just because of AA. Of the time I spent on it, I was being shot more often then dick cheney's hunting partners.

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek: Ok, fine, here we go, I'll bring up some of the points they mentioned without any of the interviewee bashing.

If 9/11 was planned, it was the single, most successful ruse in the history of the world. A Government so bloated it can't tell its left leg from right has somehow achieved the impossible. Not only did it kill 2500 of its own citizens for some reason you have failed to produce (Go to war? where's the benefit there? Tighten security in airlines? Ok... No obvious reason comes to mind) they also managed to keep it entirely secret from the public. Everyone involved in the upper cabinets and in the building, I suppose 3rd world mercenaries hired by the U.S. and then killed off after they completed their job.

All the while everyone involved have absolutely no moral qualms about keeping the biggest secret in the history of the world to themselves with full knowledge of having killed 2500 innocent people for once again, no particularly good reason... The glory of W taking out Saddam? Yeah... I bet.

sisedi

@cccombobreaker:

again you get it wrong, im not telling you 'how to agree with me' or that someone should trust blindly.

im saying, simply EDUCATE YOURSELF and take nothing for granted.

it continues to be sad that you constantly dont get the concept of information and being an objective participant in it's distribution.

Despite it not being accurate, would it matter if the voice of reason comes from a college kid with a low budget camera? Your objectivity appears to be solely lacking.

It's ok that you dont agree with me.

It's not ok that you desire to suppress information by attacking me and not dealing with the issues by using insults and rudeness.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek: Also, with the 9/11 issue, I don't think that the designers of the WTC took into account a fully loaded jet airliner at full speed crashing into the towers. Christ, this reminds me of the time i went to NYC and conspiracy theorists were handing out flyers. And seriously, even if it was a massive goverment conspiracy, what exactly would anyone gain from it?

Acebuckeye13

I didn't know we had an UBIsoft San fransico

Sarra

@acebuckeye13:

Go watch those movies i linked if you have interest in it, they explain it better than i.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek:

Funny how all your arguments can be summed up as "Go watch this propaganda video and you'll agree with me!".

We should think for ourselves according to you, but then you contradict yourself by telling everyone to go watch propaganda movies ,which really, trusting those is like trusting the mass media about everything.

But its different cause its a young college kid with grainy footage and scary music making a video to 'open our eyes'. right?

CCCombobreaker

@ccccombobreaker:

Calling something 'propaganda' because you disagree with it, doesnt make it innaccurate, it makes you someone who wants to suppress a viewpoint other than your own.

I'm not telling you to blindly believe anything, so don't put those words in my mouth.

Actually i did the exact opposite when i said
"Educate yourself, instead of just listening to what the news wants you to hear.

Think for yourself. Do the research yourself."

JoshReflek

@Kaadian:

Its not illegal for them to aim towards teenagers. In fact they have always done that because they want 18 year olds joining up out of high school. Its no different from recruiters coming to speak at high schools. The actual RECRUITING at age 17 or below is what would be illegal.

CCCombobreaker

@JoshReflek: I happen to disagree with your argument on the basis that I seriously doubt that the fedral reserve runs the Military and the nation. Congress aproves funding for the military, regardless of whether (Yes, i spelled that wrong) we have the money or not.

Acebuckeye13

Everyone involved is an idiot.

That is all.

Roto13

@sisdei:
You're being rude and attacking my character, i dont see any point in taking you seriously since you can't back up your assertions.

The pen and teller Bullshit! episode is a prime example of your brand of non-thinking....

Look how readily they slander their interviewees in the post production editing instead of addressing the issues brought up by people paying attention to the events as they occured.

Go watch zeitgeist (previous post in this thread) for an accurate understanding of the events.

Go watch the other movie i linked before that one too, that is, if you're not afraid of changing your mind.

JoshReflek

@CCCombobreaker: Being marketed to means they are trying to sell you something. In this case selling you that being in the army is cool through a video game.

And seeing as it's a teen game, its the US Army marketing to kids.

Kaadian

@ccccombobreaker:

The 16th amendment does express that congress has no new powers of taxation than it did before.

People go to court over the unapportioned income tax issue and win.

In the case of Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co. the Supreme Court declared certain income taxes - taxes on income from property under the 1894 Act - to be unconstitutionally unapportioned direct taxes.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek: Wow you have stepped over the line with that. For the most pure and simple logic against any incredibly convenient sci-fi stories regarding 9/11, watch Penn and Teller's BS and then maybe some South Park as well (Mystery of the urinal douche, love that episode).

sisedi

@JoshReflek:

So you're saying we shouldn't believe everything the mass media says. Ok thats fair. I agree with that.

But then you tell us to believe everything that Zeitgeist and loose change tell us. Talk about double standard. Those are some awesome propaganda films.

CCCombobreaker

All I know is I dislike tasteless war propaganda disguised as a game, as well as stinky San Francisco protester hippies trying to act like the arbiters of international law.

RonJeremy4Pres

@JoshReflek: Yes, the Government makes money off of corporate taxes, that's nothing new. Unfortunately you forget the part where corporations, just like citizens, are people. People trying to make their way and live in this country. By that same logic, we the people as individuals grouped together are an individual interest and therefore we fund the war too, no biggie.

That should be obvious to anyone living in America. Just because you are a single person doesn't mean you have no effect on the Government. The IRS nags you when you don't pay so you must be worth something. Is your neighborhood not a big influence? How about your town, county, state? That becomes a lot of people paying a LOT of taxes for things they may not want but it's what we do.

sisedi

@kojirodensetsu:
You're saying 9/11 went down exactly as purported by the mass media and the 'offical report'?

Here is the quick guide to being able to tell:

Go watch a controlled demolition of a building. Such as building seven.
Then watch the towers fall.
They drop at freefall speed.
This cannot be achieved by means other than controlled demolition.
We're talking simple physics.

Never before or after the twin towers have fallen, has a reinforced steel structure collapsed from fire....NEVER.

The twin towers were specifically designed to withstand the impact of multiple planes.

Molten metal was found at the base of the towers, created by the thermate charges used to cut the support beams.

Educate yourself, instead of just listening to what the news wants you to hear.

Think for yourself. Do the research yourself.

[www.zeitgeistmovie.com]

JoshReflek

I'm surrounded by idiots in this country...

Pezdispenser

@JoshReflek: You failed to understand where I was coming from. You see, I don't have to prove a negative. YOU have to back up what you wrote. I'm simply stating for all those willing to read that your comments are so bloated with hot air and lack of evidence that it instantly becomes comical to anyone with half a brain.

We pay taxes because we want our Government to exist, it's that simple. If you don't want to pay taxes, then you cannot have the benefits that my fellow citizens and I share, it's that simple. Yes the government is bloated and it wastes money faster than a middle aged man in Vegas but it also manages to do a lot of necessary things.

sisedi

They are acting like it was a good game.....damn hippies.

Cornerb0y

@JoshReflek:

"It is a fact that an unopportioned tax on income is illegal, if you're so convinced to this statement's innacuracy, than surely you can show me the law which makes a person liable to pay it?"

Article 1, section 8 of the consititution:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises . . . but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

The uniformity requirement only applies to duties, imposts, and excises. Not taxes. taxes are not required to be uniform under the constitution. taxes=/=excises.

Article 1, section 9

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census of Enumeration herein before directed to be taken."

This is where people like yourself think that taxes are banned under the constitution. It does not ban them. It says that such taxes must be in proportion to the census of enumeration.

Here's the best part! Ready? Amendment XVI to the US constitution

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

The constitution authorizes an income tax. Whether they are direct or not is irrelevant as it just doesn't matter under the plain text of the constitution.

Congresses passes the tax laws according to Article 1 section 8.

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

To sum it all up.

1. Congress has the power to tax
2. taxes are not the same as excises
3. Income can be taxed without regard to apportionment or a census.
4. Congress can draft income tax legislation
5. Direct and indirect taxing is really a made up issue and is proven to be by Amendment 16.

CCCombobreaker

Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six are brainwashing me into joining elite counter-terrorism units!

(/massive sarcasm)

Frank

@JoshReflek:

WOW it's like watching a hippy Don King attacking somebody.
Type away, HDK it's great entertainment.

Weirdwolf

I think they protest to have a gathering, like LARPer's, if they were serious, they would be at the pentagon, or whitehouse :P

Omniel

@LanciePants: Teh sarcasmz?

Kenny

I really admire these courageous protesters. Throwing down the shackles that society's overlords have placed on them and bravely marching against the very system whose greed rapes the world of it's beauty daily. You have to admit, they're really spearheading some new ground by protesting. These compassionate souls have sacrificed EVERYTHING they have for the betterment of others. True heroes one and all. Think of the millions of lives they saved with this solemn act of unity for peace, justice and tolerance. Great things are on the horizon because of their fearless act in the face of brutal repression. Truly one of the most inspirational feats I've ever been honored to witness.

LanciePants

@[ztf]: well....it is maddox =p

@sisedi: you seem interested in the subjects mentioned, like i said before, go watch those movies for information on why these things occur. It's more effective than reiterating everything they cover. In the interest of attempting:
"why go to war"

The military industrial complex is it more profitable when it sells weapons to both sides of the war.
This is also evidenced by games going from "console exclusive", to "timed console exclusive".
It is even more profitable to control the governments decision making which decides on when and who they go to war with and for how long.

Tightening security at airports is an infringement on the populace's freedom, just like warrentless wiretapping.

The clinton administration was conducting illegal warrentless wiretaps well before 9/11, yet they claim it as the justification to continue breaking the law now. The dates of their justifications dont match their behaviour.

"they managed to keep it entirely secret from the public"
apparently not.

Maybe a better way to look at it, is to look at the way they cover their tracks.

When a supposed airliner hit the pentagon, there was no evidence of it.
The CIA confiscated the tapes from the nearby businesses.
They literally covered up any evidence by land scaping the lawn.
The whole wasnt big enough for a plane to fit through.
There was no debris left behind, no bodies, no plane, nothing.
The official story is that the plane "Vaporized on contact due to the heat of the jetfuel". This is another example of an 'official' explanation that defies the laws of physics.

"I suppose 3rd world mercenaries hired by the U.S. and then killed off after they completed their job."
This is a plausable theory and it's consistant with wartime strategy that nations have used for ages.
It's a recurring theme that shows up in Warcraft3: The Frozen Throne, where Arthas will do anything to further his goal of getting revenge for those who died 'unjustly', even if it means he has to sacrifice his humanity and his friends lives to do it.
He later goes on to betray the mercenaries he hired so that his lies and betrayal will go undiscovered.

Art imitating life.

JoshReflek

But for the record, the original pc version was used as a recruitment tool. Or to get people interested in a career in the military, you don't actually beleive the US army made it to give people a free game, without thier reasons do you/ lol

Omniel

anyone else ponder the fact that AA was released, oh, only around 6 or 7 YEARS AGO???? are these pansie-ass " 'Friscans" serious? by this rationale, they'll start protesting about shit that goes down today in the year 2015. sorry ass hippie losers, maybe they ate too many 'shrooms and/ or they are all at least 70 years old, shouldn't they be playing bingo or sumthn?

F22

It's funny, these protestors protest everything except the real cause of the problem. Maybe they should be protesting the War, not a game studio.

Omniel

@race:

Dont forget mercenaries 2

CCCombobreaker

@JoshReflek: Wow, get the fuck out. Anybody that believes those conspiracy theories is a fucking moron. Try thinking for yourself for once, instead of doing what's in fashion with the hippies these days and antagonizing everything that's common knowledge.

Kenny

@JoshReflek: So wait... being a watching and then becoming a mouthpiece for people who made a movie is thinking for yourself and doing research?

[ZTF]

Amusingly, even military commercials make joining any branch of the military seem "rad" to unsuspecting viewers. Hell, AA's a free game, anyway, so I don't see the problem with it. It blows ass, in my opinion, but hey, it has a pretty respectable following. The game never struck me as all that enjoyable, especially since you go to jail for shooting your commanding officer. Lame. XD

kubevubin

AA is the most awesome game ever and I want to join the army and then play Army of Two and become a mercenary!

race

@JoshReflek:

"Despite it not being accurate, would it matter if the voice of reason comes from a college kid with a low budget camera? Your objectivity appears to be solely lacking."

Scary music+Grainy footage+twisting facts and coming to an unsubstantiated unproven conclusion=WOW AMAZING EYE OPENING VIDEO EVERYONE GO WATCH IT.

"It's not ok that you desire to suppress information by attacking me and not dealing with the issues by using insults and rudeness."

I don't remember verbally attacking you. I just think that you're so wrong it's not even funny. Im not trying to change your mind. I'm just showing everyone else how wrong you are. Which I have done already and now I will get back on topic.

@Acebuckeye13:

AA is pretty hardcore. You get shot once and chances are you're either dead or you're gonna need a medic fast before you bleed to death. Then it kinda sucks because you're dead until the round ends.

CCCombobreaker

@Acebuckeye13:

9/11, much like the sinking of the lusitania, pearl harbor, or the burning of the reichstag in germany, are all used as "false flag" operations to encite the country into going to war and accepting changes to our civil liberties such as the patriot act and FISA.

After the war started, it is now legal to indefinately detain a US citizen with no charges.

Gas prices have went up, despite having siezed the oil fields.

Many things are changing about our fundamental freedoms and those are going to accellerate drastically if martial law is declared.

Other interesting facts:
Bush gave himself the power to ignore congress and declare martial law.

Ill leave the follow up information to be explained by those movies, as they do a good job of mentioning laws and amendments that have passed in recent history.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek: [www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net] Maddox disagrees.

[ZTF]

Lest we forget that the only people clever enough to see through their scheme are people within the country who...Refuse to leave?

If I had IRREFUTABLE proof that my country did something like that to its own people, I feel guilty for having lived their and supplied the cash to make that operation possible, so guilty I would dart from here as soon as I could.

What's keeping you by the way? Are you a foreigner?

sisedi

@Kenny:

Yep. I thought I was laying it on a little thick there too.

@sisedi:

Thanks guy!

LanciePants

@JoshReflek
The Intel that they had stated that the Japanese were probably going to attack a forward American base. They didn't know which one, and actually the warning got sent to the Phillipeans.

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek: Correct me if I'm wrong Ace, but didn't the U.S. want every excuse to stay out of the European theater and simply continue supplying the munitions and etc? I don't think they wanted to be in the war but then again my history is fuzzy so perhaps Ace can elaborate.

sisedi

@Acebuckeye:

Nothing i say 'instantly discredits anything else', being wrong about something isn't mutually exclusive.

I didn't say 'pearl harbor was attacked by the united states', i said

"9/11, much like the sinking of the lusitania, pearl harbor, or the burning of the reichstag in germany, are all used as "false flag" operations to encite the country into going to war and accepting changes to our civil liberties such as the patriot act and FISA."

Being a history buff, you already knew all of those events are known as such, right?

"Even if Roosevelt had known about the possibility of an attack beforehand, what was he supposed to do about it?"

I'm not a millitary strategist, but knowing in advance would mean you could prepare, instead of letting your own troops get decimated? Doing nothing is just the tip of that iceberg, it was used as a pretext for war. it was INVITED. just as a bully goads a person into "swinging first".

JoshReflek

This discussion reminds me of the south park Episode "Die, Hippe, Die!" For more reasons then one.

Acebuckeye13

man this shit pisses me off and im as liberal as you can get (my resume reads pot smoking hippie from UC Berkeley). this is plain stupid.

maraxusofk

@JoshReflek:
Then what do you do about it? Yes, I understand that the more people that "know the truth" the more likely it *might* stop. But seriously, if they planned that and have done a good enough job to keep it under wraps, what do you hope to do to stop it?

More importantly, the Air Force Fracking Rocks. They're involved in everything from time travel to holodecks! That's the one branch I'm loving.

Ranged360

@f22:

Is this the part where im supposed to get overly emotional and scream 'fuck you too?', ill pass.

Despite enjoying the occasional cupcake, i dont consider myself 'pricess' or as a 'voice of the people' and i dont flatter myself either,....im simply spreading the word of rational thought.

Dissent is patriotic.

The reason why a phone tap is offensive, is because it's an invasion of privacy.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin

When you give an inch, they take 10 miles.

It's akin to showing your receipt to a retailer to prove you havent stolen.....it doesnt matter what 'store policy' says, once i've paid for my merch at the register, the burdon of proof is on them.
It's not about how 'easy is is to just show it', its about not being treated like a theif or jumping through corporate hoops because someone tries to tell you to.

JoshReflek

@JoshRefleck: Did you just say that Pearl Harbor was attacked by the United States? As a WW2 History Buff, that little peice of ignorance completely destroys any credibility you might have had.
Going into "Well, the United States knew it was going to happen, blah blah blah" well, smartass, Even if Roosevelt had known about the possibility of an attack beforehand, what was he supposed to do about it? The idea of Japan, at the time viewed as a backwards nation, attacking the United States was ludicrious, and furthermore was the idea that they could hit Pearl, many thousands of miles away from the furthest base Japan could support it's Navy from.

Acebuckeye13

@LanciePants: That was one of the most beautiful passages I have ever read on Kotaku, nominated!

@JoshReflek: Ok dude, I will agree with you, on ONE thing. When I watched the news coverage on the pentagon hit, I instantly wondered why the hole was so small and where the hell was the airplane that supposedly attacked it. Even my most rooted strain of logic smells something fishy with that situation. I suspect that there may be some sort of cover up or something but this is coming from someone who has not done any significant research on the subject, just judging by images I saw the day of way back when.

Oh no, am I sounding crazy now?

sisedi

And this all happened a block away?
hmm, I don't know if me missing out on that hub-bub is a good or bad thing on my part...

-sigh- If only it was a protest against protesting... Then I would have joined in...

Nymo

cccombobreaker:
you quote me saying "Despite it not being accurate, would it matter if the voice of reason comes from a college kid with a low budget camera? Your objectivity appears to be solely lacking."

and you respond with "Scary music+Grainy footage+twisting facts and coming to an unsubstantiated unproven conclusion=WOW AMAZING EYE OPENING VIDEO EVERYONE GO WATCH IT."

Way to go, you completely avoided what i said and glossed over anything of relevance. You really have nothing to add to this conversation do you?

@[ztf]:

you call me a 'mouthpiece' because i have an opinion that i share with someone else?
im expressing my viewpoint.
it just so happens there is a video that expresses it well, have you watched it?

Dismissing something out of hand is foolish. go experience it for yourself.

@kenny:

"Wow, get the fuck out. Anybody that believes those conspiracy theories is a fucking moron."

So if i dont think the way you do, im a moron? Say something valid to dispute the claims made in them....that is....if you've actually watched them and can make a related comment.

It seems as though you're just talking out of your arse about something you have only heard of as being 'wrong because anyone who belives that stuff is a fucking moron'.

And for great irony, the next thing you said was:

"Try thinking for yourself for once..."

then you say "...instead of doing what's in fashion with the hippies these days and antagonizing everything that's common knowledge."

so you're saying that anyone who goes against the grain is a hippie, ergo, bereft of rational thought?

You contradict yourself constantly.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek: other than asking whats for dinner and talking to your girlfriend, who really gives a fuck if one is part of a federal phone tap? honestly. i could really give a dam. i would gladly let myself get phonetapped if there was a chance of catching some third-world shitbag who could potentially kill my mom and my family, so fuck you and your self-flattery. i can already tell you think you are some priceless, voice of the people. keep telling yourself that cupcake, keep telling yourself that

F22

Devil's Advocate:
The military industrial complex is good for the world!

It helps bring about funding and research into many fields which ultimately leads to breakthroughs in the everyday things. Research that ultimately helps farmers in developing countries achieve new levels of prosperity, limiting the sustenance farming.

Ranged360

@@JoshReflek: My power is provided by the finest Nuclear Reactor Money can buy, from the good people at DTE.
I'm screwed.

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek:

[www.popularmechanics.com]

Please read before you continue your argument.
I did you the courtesy of watching your video.

Thank you.

Reikson

@rexdart007:
Rexdart. you just won!

The first world countries aren't that bad of a place to live. If you want to "save the world" then save the people who REALLY need it, and quit worrying about the little crap here in America and Europe; get involved and help out your fellow man, not just yourself and your neighboorhood. Those who debate these things and do very little to solve the big issues in this world remind me of the movie 300.... Something about Athenian Boy Lovers?

Ranged360

@Acebuckeye13: Well...yeah. The older ones are, but the one's being published by Ubisoft are retail.

Alucrid

@f22:
"where do you draw the line at invasion of privacy? when you walk down any major metropolitan area on the planet, you are being filmed, did you know that?"

yes i do realize, however, there is a reason that wiretapping is supposed to be only given by order of a judge when evidence is presented that would 'warrent' such an action that is otherwise considered an invasion of privacy.
The reason is because without the burdon of proof on those who want to tap the wires, anyone can be monitored and that puts us in a surveillance society.
For reasons as to why this is bad, go read George Orwell's 1984.

"and then your rambling about "jumping through corporate hoops?" unless your churning your own butter and using carrier pigeons to communicate, you have zero credibility. even if you managed to rig up a bunch of gerbils on wheels to power your home made computer to write your self-indulgent mess, your sorry ass is still dropping $40/ mo. for internet service. survey says: YOU FAIL "

Well, 'sweetheart' my 'sorry ass' succeeds at not "jumping through corporate hoops", because i choose to not follow directions just because a company makes a sign and hangs it on the wall, telling me what i need to.
In america, we have the Fourth Amendment that protects it's citizens against unreasonable search and seizure.
Someone demanding proof that i did not steal from their store is covered by it, such that, the burdon of proof is on the store, not the customer. This is the concept of innocent before PROVEN guilty.
What you go on to describe is someone who rejects capitalism as a whole, i dont.
I reject unlawful expectations.

@Acebuckeye13: Click on your name at the top of the page, then find the comment you made below, there should be a link to the comment beneath it.

JoshReflek

@JoshReflek:

I picture you typing away furiously, with the old school Star Trek Amok battle music blaring in the background.

+ Watch video

LanciePants

@Alucrid: maybe, but America's Army is Free.

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek:

Hm, I think that still brings about a great number of sheep, just on the other side of things. Too much debate and not enough action leads to the devious stepping around and making decisions.

My advice to you: Get a commission in the military, gain some experience from how the other end works, do the right thing, get elected and make the right decisions.

Ranged360

Let's get to the point, who would actually play the piece of shit that is America's Army? When there's much, much better games out there who's wasting their time playing this game? Certainly not me...that's for sure.

Alucrid

You know, there are plenty of countries in Africa where they have 8 year olds forced into some warlord's militia and thrown out to the front of the lines as cannon fodder. And many of those countries end up on the UN human rights committee, which is a joke. So maybe the hippies could spend their time working against THAT, and leave a video game alone. This is an all-volunteer army in the US, and in wartime nobody really goes into the army unaware that they could die, and no video game will change that.

But hey, it's San Francisco and they're hippies, so "durr Bush is Hitler!!" is about the extent of the reasoning their drug-addled brains are capable of, and reflexively blaming America for every evil on the planet is their bread and butter.

rexdart007

@JoshReflek: I think he actually meant what is the soultion to the overall problom, not just bringing awareness to it.

Acebuckeye13

@LanciePants: No problem, budday!

sisedi

@Ranged360:

'what do you do about it'

Inform other people.
Participate in political rallies and protests.
Sign petitions.
Have reasonable discussions.

All in an attempt to get people away from emotional conclusions instead getting people to focus on logical thought and the events as they actually occur.

JoshReflek

BTW, completely off topic, how do you include a link to a previous post?

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek: [I] 9/11, much like the sinking of the lusitania, pearl harbor, or the burning of the reichstag in germany, are all used as "false flag" operations to encite the country into going to war and accepting changes to our civil liberties such as the patriot act and FISA [/I]

I'll agree to that.

Mesren_Makai

@sisedi: Roosevelt actually wanted to get into the war in Europe (Or at least make sure Britian didn't lose), but was restricted by the "Neutrality acts" of the 30's, which prevented him from supplying the brits. Also, Germany declared war on us. pretty foolish of him, really.

Acebuckeye13

@JoshReflek: sweetheart where do you draw the line at invasion of privacy? when you walk down any major metropolitan area on the planet, you are being filmed, did you know that? and then your rambling about "jumping through corporate hoops?" unless your churning your own butter and using carrier pigeons to communicate, you have zero credibility. even if you managed to rig up a bunch of gerbils on wheels to power your home made computer to write your self-indulgent mess, your sorry ass is still dropping $40/ mo. for internet service. survey says: YOU FAIL

F22

We're only "brainwashed" if we're dumb enough to allow such things.

But there aren't any conspiracies.

9/11 was more along conflict of interest and religion.

But has the military exploited in attempt to gain more workers? Why yes, I believe that. Do I believe the war is lame and not needed? Why yes, I believe that.

But do I believe that the entire military is brainwashed into being drones? No. I don't.

You could argue all day about the meaning of 'fighting for a country', but as far as brainwashing recruits into military goes, it goes only as far as conventional advertising. And maybe war games.

Either way, we all suck. The end.

Mesren_Makai

@JoshReflek: Okay, could you explain, in language that doesn't involve recitation of bumper stickers, how the US "bullied" Japan into attacking it? (the irony is that just tonight I posted an article on Hiroshima on my blog)

relic1980

@JoshReflek:

The game does not accurately depict end results from serving in the millitary, such as being considered "property" for the rest of your life, or themes as to how those who mistakenly want to protect their nation are duped into thinking that being an "expendable" soldier can better the lives of those at home.

I want you to live in a country without a military.

Your opinions won't matter a whole lot after that. You see, some neighboring country (with a military) will invade your country, rape your children, and kill you (assuming you're a male over 13) if you're a woman, you get raped too.

Meanwhile you can wait for the U.N. to decide what to do as your country burns.

if you think I'm making this up, just read up on Darfur.

I thank God there are people better than you or I ready to join the military. If your beef is with the Government, vote someone else in office. Saying the military is evil is just fucking ignorance -- especially the US military, which is directed exclusively by people YOU and I vote into office. Until the military stages a coup and takes over the government and proves me wrong (which it hasn't done in 200 years), you're full of shit.

Snokie

@Ranged360: um....thanks...i guess?

F22

@F22:
You remind me of some of the seniors when I was a freshman on the highschool wrestling team :(

Ranged360

@JoshReflek: buttercup so your saying you sew your own clothes and hunt/ grow your own food?

actually lets get to the real point; #1; why are you even on this website? and #2 (drumroll please) since you did manage to find this site, what games DO you play? once we all know this here, that will instantly let us know what kind of a person you really are. so please, you have the stage now babygirl, its all you....

F22

@relic1980: I Think he left about 20 miniutes ago.

Acebuckeye13

I'm highly amused that this rather simple post has somehow devolved into a hilariously silly argument over 9/11 conspiracy theories. Although, to be completely fair, I'm also quite impressed with how relatively civil JoshReflek has managed to remain throughout most of the thread--unlike certain others who feel the need to inflate their egos by being patronizing pricks.

On topic: stating that war is "just like sitting on your ass playing video games all day" will probably not be entirely inaccurate in the near future.

Regardless, the underlying point behind the protest is worth debating (even if the actual protesters themselves are pushing a seriously flawed argument riddled with holes). Should the armed services have the same marketing and promotion privileges as the private sector, or should they be much more limited in scope? It's an interesting question to consider and discuss.

JustThisGuy

@JoshReflek:

9/11, much like the sinking of the lusitania, pearl harbor, or the burning of the reichstag in germany, are all used as "false flag" operations to encite the country into going to war and accepting changes to our civil liberties such as the patriot act and FISA.

Did I read this right? Does this guy think that FDR attacked Pearl Harbor and falsely accused the Japs of doing it? ROFL I hate to tell you, the USN didn't sink the Lusitania to get us into WW1, either....unless you think we used ZOG's Nind Control Satellites to get the Germans to "confess" to doing it themselves.

Tibeerius

San Francisco: Origin of "HURRR"?

@race: You would not believe how fucking often shit like that gets people asking about joining Blackwater on weapons/military-themed boards.

RedRaptor

*cough* *cough* San Francisco's smug problem.

Jext

If the game has an actuel internet option to subscribe to the army's mailing list then that would mean the game is actuelly recruiting. Otherwise it is NOT recruiting.

The game is getting this attention just because it is titled America's Army. Just because it has the word "America" does not make it a government funded attempt at recruiting. They're pointing the finger at the wrong people.

The government in the other had does really make games just for recruiting. It's upon request.

taikerr

@taikerr: But wait--isn't America's Army a government-funded attempt at recruiting? The DoD did fund development, production and distribution of this game, no?

JustThisGuy

I'm of the opinion that the US army making a video game about real war to peddle kids warfare is the lowest of the low....just sayin. I also love violent video games. just sayin.

PATSCRU

@JoRo1986: The volume of this post is limitless

Bone Structure

@sisedi: Another, volumous post

Bone Structure

Between Tibet, Iraq, Dafur, and other such worthwhile causes, San Fran,you chose of all things...Video games and not even a popular title at that...Man you people have waaaay too much time on your hands...

NeVeRMoRe666

whatever, its a video game.

mikevanpwn

Other nations in the world have standard policies of military service. Once you hit a certian age you serve a term in the military. The US does not, so they must recruit.

Recruitment has been aimed at young men & women for ages. My highschool had members of the Army at their "college fair". And my college had more of it at their "job fair". Beyond that apon high school graduation I recieved roughly over 100+ calls durring the summer from various military branches asking me to join.

So whats the difference here if they are calling teens on the phone, going to their highschools or just giving out a game? Are they trying to suggest the game is giving teens a rose colored view of what the army is?

Even if that were the case, what we are talking about here is the difference between the "Cartoon Mickey Mouse" and "The guy in the mickey mouse outfit at disney world". Most teens I know, know the difference between a game and reality.

The game is a tool to generate intrest in joining a military branch. In that respect it's no different from the mailings from the military, their phone calls, their visits to high schools, or colleges around the nation. It's just a little more interactive.

jerros

What the hell kind of stupid word is "peacemongers"?

L_K_M

@cpmui99: For posterity, a repost of Michael Reagan's comment that you replied to. I'm not him, I just want to put your post in context:

Wired Editors,

I am writing in response to Chris Kohler's pathetic attempt at journalism entitled "Activists Protest America's Army Game With Songs and Stickers." If Mr. Kohler had taken a moment to interview any of the organizers or speakers at the rally and action today he could not have possibly written anything so trite and condescending of his audience. Instead of doing his job and getting both sides of the story, Mr. Kohler chose to publish Ubisoft's response without ever having presented a substantive quote from the organizers. In fact, I was managing press at the rally and had to give our press kit to your photographer, Emily Lang; Mr. Kohler apparently not being interested in even a minimal effort of journalistic responsibility.

If Mr. Kohler had done his job, and talked to the people putting on the rally, he would have found out that we are not the only ones making the claim that "America's Army" violates international law. The American Civil Liberties Union has found that Army use of the game, and its recruiting practice in general, violate the UN Optional Protoc