@MarionBarryHussein: not at all if they were caught stealing, leaking secrets or doing anything wrong then they don't deserve to be in the credits. Not everyone who works in the gaming industry is hard working and honest. Since we will never know the whole story and really its not our buisness we should let Mythic and the employees sort it out.

taftsearlobe33

@jihadjoe343: but what if they were fired because they were poor workers or maybe they came in drunk all the time? do they deserve to be in the credits then? Truth is we will never know the whole story

taftsearlobe33

@taftsearlobe33: The context of their departure is irrelevant. For decades, basic showbiz manners have been that unless the credit is particularly high-profile (like directing, writing, etc), crew members should get a credit for any work done.

These credits can then be used as a reference for a site like 'mobygames', imdb, etc, and they are relevant for folks who need them as a hard resume.

But this is classic EA. This approach worked when the stock was doubling every 3 years and the execs could buy a new block in the marina with the annual stock option windfall regardless of how mismanaged and alienated the latest bought-out studio was. Too bad the middle management these days doesn't have such guaranteed riches waiting for them - god forbid they'll actually need a little bit of goodwill in the industry once the house that Trip and Larry built fades into the sunset.

MarionBarryHussein

Cutbacks/layoffs most likely.

Boudabras

like any product or production the credits are a service given by the owners of said product (unless stipulated in a contract of a contributor or union). People can still use the experience in their resume and I'd find it hard pressed anyone from Mythic to deny their contribution to a future employer. I'd like credit for a lot of the work I've done over the years but my old advertising firm is the one who has their name on it. That comes with the territory of not doing it yourself.

DasKonstruct

I'd be pretty pissed if this happened to me. It's entirely possible that someone who created a critical aspect of the game left amicably but isn't going to be credited for that work. All these guys are asking is for their name to be put in some credits to let people know they spent years of their time on the product. It's not like they're demanding some sort of compensation or royalties.

jihadjoe343

I think the question should be why did they leave? did they break their contract? were they fired? there are too many variables to make a judgement call. Though like others have said when in gods name do you see credits for a MMO? honestly I wouldn't even know where to look for WoWs credits.

taftsearlobe33

Most MMOs allow people to view the credits from the opening login screen. Who actually takes the time to view them, however, is the real question.

pagancollective

@Patient: credits for MMO are usually in the instruction book, which most people never read anyways.

Working in the game industry, i know i would be unhappy if i worked on something for a really long time and didnt at least get mentioned. I wouldnt be angry or anything, but I would like to at least be mentioned. its just kind of nice to know that someone cares...

aww damnit, i think i just made myself sad :(

knifey-spoonie

I don't know why, but it seems to me like this is -especially- bad if there are artists who aren't being credited who produced assets that are actually in the final game.

I'm not trying to devalue the work done by programmers and the like. For some reason, though, having a character model or set of textures or something else in the game that the artist isn't being credited for strikes me as a whole different level of bad, somehow.

EmpressInYellow

That should be a criminal offense not to include those who have worked on a product and not not be given credits.

Ralavik

Hilarious - take the "EA" out of the name, but the mindset is still 100% Redwood Shores landfill.

There's at least upside to the inexorable decline of EA stock - they won't be able to use it as currency to suck up and trash too many more studios in the future.

MarionBarryHussein

This isn't the American Director's Guild. You do not get booted from some famous Masonic Order'esque group for not including credits of actors.

Secondly, when do you exactly see the credits in a MMO?
When you beat the last dragon or something?

Lastly, I am trying to think of a time ever when I expected to be credited for work after leaving a project or company. Usually that situation happens when people are either fired, leave the project to go work on some other thing or did not care enough to be credited to show up a 10:00AM on a Friday to be put in...

Patient

I could be wrong, but is there some legal reason they might be doing this? I realize that for all practical purposes these people really ought to be credited, but sometimes the law is anything but practical.

SmilingPolitely

@James in Dupont: Yeah they come up after you finally defeat the end guy

deathwombat

This is pretty bad. It's had such a long development cycle, so years of peoples' lives will go uncredited. I know people involved in films, and most of the jobs are pretty thankless. People really do a lot for that one moment of recognition.

idkmybffgreg

MMOs have credits?

James in Dupont

@MarionBarryHussein:

thats true, but you also have credit whores, who get titles, and they barely work on anything, at big companies anyway, I think it should more be at the producers discrestion in those cases, rather than a set rule :)

Omniel

This is almost as bad as the Wii version of Okami have no credits at all.

dowingba

@Omniel: And they could also create the single most compelling animation, model, background, texture etc in that month, which is featured on the boxcover, in commercials, magazine covers, screenshots, etc...

Lord knows there are many people in the industry who can do more in a month than many others in years, and that many of those types of people don't wait around for things to go south if they develop a strong sense that the knucklehead factor with a particular manager is too high to tolerate.

MarionBarryHussein

@Patient: Their next employer sees them. Or rather, doesn't see them...

Snake726

@jaz:

yah thats fair, cause people could leave a project after a month, and get credit, for little or no work on the game hehe.

Omniel

On at least one game that I worked on (not sure about the others, didn't ask) the policy was that if the employee was laid off or fired, they were in the credits. If they left of their own accord, they weren't (and presumably knew that so it was their choice). Seemed fair to me.

jaz

They will get it in the end, the game wont do well I dont think :)

But, I think this is wrong, as a developer, If I was excluded from the credits I would be mad, especially 3 years, I wouldnt mind if it was a mistake, and not in the game, but if its not on mobygames etc, those 3 years are un-noticed or concidered almost not working, sadly when you apply at a big game company, you deal with thier HR, and they usually go by how many titles you have, and if they are AAA titles, so its important to have as many credits as possible, at least til your name gets to a art person, that goes more by quality of work, but sadly in the hiring process, its the ammount of titles that gets your foot in the door.

Omniel

@taftsearlobe33: No, there's no judgment call to be made here at all. It doesn't matter if they raped the CEO's wife and stole his burritos from the freezer; if they contributed to the project, their names go in the credits. Period.

That's standard practice for nearly all games companies in the US. Game developers turn over *constantly*; in fact, it's very common to lay off nearly everyone after a project and start fresh on the next one. There's no seedy story here where hundreds of employees were fired for being drunken thieves and stricken from the credits -- it's just the normal churn, and some idiot made a massive faux pas by not including everyone who was on the project.

dougr650

@taftsearlobe33: That's why I said "amicable" and not just a general termination. It's very possible that some of these people might have left because they got other job offers or felt that they couldn't devote the required time to the project.

If you got fired because you weren't doing your job then no, you don't deserve to be listed in the credits.

jihadjoe343

@taftsearlobe33: Right, unless they behaved like good little worker bees according to the subjective standards of whatever petty tyrant assigns himself (or herself) the role of judge and jury, then their years of work should be considered effectively null and void.

Especially if they had the temerity to show up late for the Saturday shift! To think, you give these ingrates 10,000 options at 55 bucks and this is how they treat the job...

MarionBarryHussein

That guy should have his name published. At least so he can score Kotaku credits.

moidsch

@taftsearlobe33: I find it pretty unlikely that enough people on the team to constitute a significant number were "caught stealing, leaking secrets, or doing anything wrong"

My first guess was that maybe Mythic had used some of the assets/designs/concept stuff that Climax had done for the game before that version of it went belly-up, and that the people responsible for those bits were some of the ones who weren't being credited. It looks like Mythic really did start from scratch, though, so who knows.

EmpressInYellow

@Omniel: I suppose, much as it is at your discretion whether or not to leave a tip at a restaurant. I just don't recommend eating at that place a second time, nor would I recommend that kind of behavior for a producer who can't comfortably retire when that particular job winds up. It is still a small industry in some ways.

MarionBarryHussein

i remember in the credits for the old lucasarts game The Dig, they credited certain people who left the company or the project as "Ghosts of Digs Past". would have been nice for these guys to do something classy like that.

nathew

@MarionBarryHussein:

I suppose, it should definatly be standard, they could always at least say, "and an added thanks to:" or something. long as they are in it.

Omniel

@Shawk:

its not about an ego boost, its about job resume.

Omniel

Very Lame! I bet it was an ELECTRONIC'S ART' decision, I hate that company for how it screwed up so many great developers.

zzt711

Raise your hand if you actually read the credits...

Shawk

The last time I actually cared about the credits screen in ANYTHING was... well... never actually. It's not like they are removing the person's employment history with the company. It's a single name in a wall of text that nobody gives a crap about.

chiablo

man first they had to fight just to get credits into a game period now they have to fight to get credit where credit is due.

serious industry ITS A FUCKING LIST OF TEXT. ITS NOT THAT FUCKING DIFFICULT. seriously....

demonknightinuyasha

@jaz: ...if the employee was laid off or fired, they were in the credits. If they left of their own accord, they weren't

That sounds about right. I'm not a game developer but I do work in software, and I know that even people who leave amicably (whatever that can mean) always, always, always leave work unfinished at best and completely wrong at worst.

I'm not saying that this particular developer did or did not do that, but there's no way for us to know what really happened inside Mythic.

baberg

EA pulling an "old EA" once again.

Credi should be where credit is due. It's prety important to a dev that it's there so if/when he moves on to his next gig (which on average in the industry is every 3 YEARS) then it would help in future employment.

NO ONE should be left out of the credits. I don't care if they only worked for a couple of weeks.

What I've seen done in a more classy way is that any artist that isn't on the project at its finish is put under the "additional art" credits. It's a sort of holding tank for all of the devs that left the company in the process of the game's development and it doesn't matter what kind of artist they are, they still are credited.

JohnnyLA

@chiablo:
argh, I am sure he doesnt care about that, the fact is these lists are submitted to sites like moby games, etc, that companys, and possible employers look up peoples names, to get a quick idea on thier career history.

I wish people would stop and read posts, and realize theres many reasons, developers could really care less if you see thier name or not, its more for others in the industry.

Omniel

@Tyrannical: Yeah, because I'm positive that you'll have to set through credits rolling in an MMO game.

Seriously, the people that the article is talking about put over three years of work developing the game. They merely want recognition.

Arttemis

@boopadoo: why shouldn't it be just as important for the people that devoted months of their lives to the product?

Well, for one, they didn't see it through to the end. Whether by their own choice or circumstances out of their control, they left the job. That can and does affect schedules, morale, general cohesiveness, and on top of it all now they have to recruit, hire, and train a new person to take over the job that is now vacant.

This smells like a corporate policy from EA that if you left the company before a certain date, you don't get credit. Rather than open up the company to lawsuits for "I worked for X years, but person Y worked for fewer years, yet he's in the credits and I'm not". So instead there is a single cut-off date which I'm sure is spelled out in the company policy.

baberg

I'm not sitting through another 45 minute ending credits like the original Fable had.

I don't care who works in the accounting department, or who the CEO's secretary is.

Tyrannical

/tear.

No one can follow the credits once "Lighting Tech Staff/Audio Tech Staff" starts scrolling up anyways. Did anyone here honestly catch any of the names besides the bold letters in the first dozen rows?.

Two sides to the coin.

If WAR becomes a huge hit; whoever is shopping around will notice the staffs that left the game at an early conception,who does not deserve the same credibility as the seniors, may get a love call.

On the other side, to reiterate my point of credits scrolling too damn fast, just put their names in there out of dignity.

PsycheE

I can't tell who's being sarcastic. For all those saying it's not a big deal to be in the credits, go eat a wet turd nugget.

For some of us, this is the ONLY way to prove that we worked on a title. For someone on the outside of development, especially employers, that nod in the credits means you participated in getting a title to market. If it's a success, it carries even more weight.

You know something like this would be unforgivable for a CEO or George Lucas, so why shouldn't it be just as important for the people that devoted months of their lives to the product?

boopadoo

I just checked, WoW is the only MMO I currently have installed, on the right hand side of the login screen there's a "Credits" button, right below the "Cinematics" button, and right above the "Terms of Use" button.

I only felt tempted to press one of those.

MartinX

Credits aren't really for you guys. Some studios optimistically assume that everyone cares who made the game they just played, but it's usually skippable or just in the back of the manual... still, they're always hidden somewhere.

"So, your CV says you worked on Warhammer for three years."
"Sure. I've got some renders of assets I built here."
"But you aren't in the credits. Did you steal these?"
"OK... there's a reason for that, but you'll have to accept that the most successful games publisher in the world is lying purely to make me look bad."
"I think we're done here."

Though more realistically it'd hurt their chances of getting to the interview stage. Their best hope is to raise hell on the Internet so hiring managers everywhere know Mythic pulled this shit.

Companies don't get to pick and choose who 'deserves' a credit these days. They'd rather not credit at all, so can you imagine that ending well? If your work went into the game, you get a credit. Simple.

randomnine

I don't get it. Crediting a person isn't like creating a new model or something. It's a simple string of letters. Or part of a page if you stick it into the manual instead. Most people aren't going to check out the credits in an MMO anyway, but its just a matter of decency.

Nirual

I hate companies with such practices. And trust me EA is not the only one. I used to work for Nintendo of Europe, for almost two years, and was never, ever credited in their games.

I worked my ass off on Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy and other projects, and was really proud on working on them, but technically, I have no proof I was working on them at all!

Their policy was: if you do not have a permanent contract (aka you have been working for them for at least 3 years), you are not worthy of being mentioned in the credits! This sickens me deeply, as most of my colleagues, as I, deserved to be mentioned in the credits after the hard work we put into it. It's just f***ing text for crying out loud!

Just for the joke, if you have a European copy of Metroid Prime 3, check the Localization Testing Team Credits. Out of 30 testers, only one name shows up since he was the only one with a permanent contract. So basically Nintendo says "only one German dude tested this game in all 5 languages."

Today I work in another company in a much higher position, and I am the one who compiles the Credits. I make sure to leave no one out, even the interns. If you had any role in making a game, as insignificant as it may be, you should be credited.

Yshaana

@baberg: Here's the entire question:
You know something like this would be unforgivable for a CEO or George Lucas, so why shouldn't it be just as important for the people that devoted months of their lives to the product?

This is not a question about the length of time you're on a project, it's about the principal of including everyone who's had a hand in the project. Even if you were on the team for a couple months, you probably contributed SOMETHING to the process to which you should be credited.

I don't know of any company that has a "cutoff" policy regarding credits, especially for projects that span several years; This is just a case of shitty management.

boopadoo

That's horribly wrong. People that are saying it doesn't matter, how would you feel if you spend months even years of your lives working on something only for those guys over there to be the only ones to get credit for it?

Ajh

Oh yeah... Just wanted to add...

THIS IS NON-NEWS!

Seppli

This seems to be true for every major game out there. So why bring it up now? Why make it an issue for Warhammer?

Of course I get the point. Everybody, who worked on a game, should be credited. But again, why has WAR to be the game starting the controversy?

Oh well, I guess they'll just have to add the names to their credits, I guess that's no biggy. Anyways, I can only guess, why WAR is being made into the scapegoat here.

Seppli

@Seppli:You must not like your posting rights.

Foxstar Sixtail

@boopadoo: actually this happens in the film and music industry a lot. If someone is not in a union or if its not in their contract then odds are they will not get in the credits.

taftsearlobe33

The point is, the guy who brings Tom Cruise his fucking sandwich gets credit in his movies.

dowingba

I dont see a problem with this. Its a bit impractical to have past and present staff, unless the exstaffers were mentioned in a special section down towards the bottom but then thats still totally ridiculous.

usaevo8

I'm confused as to what the big stink about this is. It's not like people can't put it on their resumes still, or ask for a reference if they did good work. All it means is they don't appear in the credits. Which no one ever sees anyways.

DissmalScientist

@randomnine: If my resume says I worked on Warhammer Online, a potential employer is going to *call Mythic to verify.* They are *not* going to corroborate my claim by loading up the game and clicking the "Credits" button to search for my name.

This won't hurt anybody's chances of getting a job. It means they won't be able to brag to their friends and family.

antialias02

i dunno, it could be a bit imba though... let's say you're the artist that (hypothetically) created all the models/animation/etc. in the entire game. you have to leave the company because you had to relocate elsewhere for whatever reason. a year later (or however long it was to be left out of the credits) before the game is completed, an intern comes in and spends a month or two re-scripting or calibrating a few of your animations.

in the end, that intern shows up in the end credits, and you don't.

though it would totally suck if they denied it too if you were using them as a reference to get another job, lol.

phrequency

@usaevo8: I know, right? I mean, all that extra text might cost them...um...

@thepontiff: Way to go for not paying attention to the concerns of people who've actually done game development, chief.

EmpressInYellow

People who are so concerned over something like this are just insecure. I mean god damnit I was on a concrete crew in college and I deserve to have my name on that buildings deed it shouldn't just say XYZ Contractors!

thepontiff

ROFL:

"An ex-employee of Mythic, who requested anonymity, described the surprisingly frequent move as 'dogging out many, many developers.'"

Okay...if he was looking to get credited...why the anonymity? Maybe EA should just add the "and the hundreds of anonymous ex-employees" at the end.

JCVD

This happens all the time...I've been jacked on a couple accounts for credits on games I worked on...it happens all the time...I mean all the time...

Elemence

Wait... What are credits?

Bitten_Dead

Heres an easy way to get around that.

One of the former devs can make a fancy website and compile a list of people who worked on the game. There, I solved the problem.

Tizlor

@EmpressInYellow: I have no problem myself with people getting credit for work done, but a video game development team isn't exactly a group of rockstars.

I develop software for a living - software used by thousands of people every day - but my name is *nowhere* on the product. At all. I'm not complaining by any stretch; I couldn't care less. I am simply making a statement of fact.

Why should it be any different for video game developers? Because they crave attention? Because they deserve the recognition? Lots of people *should* get more attention than they do, but that's just not how life works sometimes. It's seldom "fair," and while I agree that it would be great to include everyone, things don't always work out.

We can either whine about it or we can suck it up and move on to the next project. It seems some developers would prefer to whine.

antialias02

But this is might be a good thing if the game sucks horribly and became vaporware! Hard to imagine but you cant denied the possibility. :p

Joke aside, I think they should be included if everyone else is eventhough none of the gamers ever noticed it anyway. Credits are meant for peeing and getting a drink before you come back n check for the possibility of a sequel anyway.

Jazzrat

@antialias02: I develop software for a living - software used by thousands of people every day - but my name is *nowhere* on the product. At all.

It's the policy of the company that I work for that we never sign our names to the source code we write - the code is created by the company, not by a particular person.

I'm with you - I don't see why having your name in the credits is such a big deal. If you left Mythic in the middle of developing Warhammer, odds are it's because you picked up another job doing something else so the issue of "Were you really working for Mythic?" becomes completely moot. And if they really did wonder, that's why Mythic has an HR department.

baberg

For movies and TV shows, the Screen Writers Guild rules with an iron fist, and will only allow a set number of writing credits based on who they determine to have been the primary contributors to the script that most closely resembles the final filmed product (not sure what they'd do if the entire thing ended up being ad-libbed). Anyone beyond the approved list can be listed in a way that recognizes their involvement, but doesn't directly state that they helped write the scripts (Special Thanks To:, etc).

But that's a far cry from pointedly excluding people just because they left halfway through. That's what happened to H.R.Giger over his xenoform designs from the Alien saga. A later director (either Aliens or Alienses) decided he didn't want to work with Giger at all, even though Giger submitted designs for an updated xenoform that he could use for free. Dude hired someone else do come up with new designs, then later decided they were crap so they quickly adapted Giger's submissions. Then they failed to credit Giger _at_all_. He sued, won, and now the studio is required to credit him with designing the original Alien xenoform anytime they do a new Alien movie.

Purple Dave

While it seems sympathetic to consider people who left the team as still being credited for their work, the fact is that it takes commitment and dedication to stick to the project till it is DONE. Till it is complete. Leaving a team or project before its completion is not something that is an admirable trait in the entertainment (or any industry) either.

It should be up to the company itself how they want to handle the crediting of other individuals, and this is pretty much exactly how it is handled. On paper though, I'm sure it counts for the worst case scenario, which is, "only people there till the game's completion," or whatever. Which is, well, duh for any big company.

AnujSuper9

Part of this could conceivably get into a "games as art" thing, but in my mind, if there's -any chance- that something could be construed as an artistic endeavor rather than a purely commercial one, the people involved deserve to be credited.

This is standard practice in practically every other form of media. I don't see why games, which are an entertainment medium and thus more analogous to film, TV, music, etc. than Microsoft Word, should be any different.

EmpressInYellow

@dowingba: only if he brings the sandwich every day of the shoot. If he gets pissed off one day and leaves his name is not going in.

Think of it this way lets say you work on a school project with a bunch of people that takes a month to do. One person leaves after the first week and doesn't explain why. Does he still get credit for helping? Or should all the credit go to those who stayed and saw it through to the end.

taftsearlobe33

@taftsearlobe33: If you include the parts that he actually worked on, then yes, he should. Maybe he shouldn't get EQUAL credit to everyone else, but to totally ignore his contribution while freely using it is utter garbage.

EmpressInYellow

@EmpressInYellow: so what mythic should say "these people helped but only a little bit and left before it was done"

Sorry the film industry doesn't work that way the music industry doesn't work that way either. You are a fool if you think otherwise. These things happen all the time in the entertainment industry this is nothing new. They go to court some times they win some times they loose.

The Fact is there is no way any of us know the whole story and it is really none of our business it is between the employee and the employer and has nothing to do with us.

taftsearlobe33

It's not like you can buy anything with these credits...

Max Freak

From my limited experience with Mythic, I find this news surprising to say the least - it seems to me that there must be more to it.
And for those saying this is an "EA thing", I'm almost positive that EA has no say in what Mythic Entertainment employees make the credits list.

Foggles

As someone in the film industry who does screenwriting work, I can tell you that it is rare anyone ever gets shafted in that manner. The unions exist for almost this express purpose. When a screenwriter is uncredited, it is because very little of their work was actually used in comparison with the contributions of others. In some situations, this actually comes to a vote from screenwriters. Funnily enough, this is how David Hayter of Metal Gear fame got the X-Men credit. He was Bryan Singer's driver and contributed to the script so much that the other writers had to concede that he had done a majority of the work on it by the time it all wrapped.

I can tell you that for most other credits, anyone who did anything gets credited, no matter if they got fired or quit. They put in the time, they get the credit, or people get sued. I have personal experience with this after having to walk off of a particularly troublesome project. I still received credit for work done, despite quiting.

Tooner623

For the most part, QA gets the big shaft when it comes to credits. They are shunned for simply doing their job.

KyofuBAD