Wow... Haven't seen this kind of abuse of game creation staff since Atari...

bobtheduck

Hey, we can all put Warhammer Online 2005-2007 on our resumes now.

Tyrannical

@Zero1328: Not only that, but think of the geek cred!
"You're a asshole. Go die."
"I made the game you love, dickwad."
"Fucking liar, go die."
*credits ensue*
"YOU ARE MY GOD."

toejam316

@Balius: I know what you mean by not reading the credits. But it's a great way to show proof of participation in the development of a project for future references and whatnot.

And man... if my company did something like that... that would really grind my gears.

magusonline

Being a hardcore WoW fan I may be a bit bias in my MMO's. I did have high hopes for Warhammer and perhaps it will be a great game but the trailer did not all excite me. Then again it is just a trailer. Leaving poor folks out of the credits who worked hard on the game I believe is wrong. Blizzard may have done the same, Im not sure. Having said that i wont flame Mythic even tho i think its BS. Blizzard did make a monument in the game to a devoloper who actually passed away during making of the game. The shrine can be found in "The Barrens" and i think its a cool thing they did to honor the dude.

mash25

@Balius: I think one of the points of having credits is because it can be used as first hand evidence that you actually worked on the thing. Such a thing becomes useful for your resume. Stuff like page profiles would be a secondary source, and in time, companies might no longer have the information or they go defunct.

Zero1328

Honestly, I can't ever remember reading the credits. I've shot names and pictures, I've played guitar while they scroll in the area I'm not looking, I've listened to the songs while I do other things, but a scrolling list of names doesn't offer a whole lot.

Frankly, if they put the whole thing online with a profile and a job description, possibly even with a picture and some personal quotes about the project, I would almost always be interested in checking out almost all the people credited, but a scrolling list of names...

It's just a vanity plate, and based on some of the less than humane stories I've heard about some companies in the industry, I think enforcing a requirement for that oft-ignored vanity plate should be somewhat further down the list than ensuring that employees get treated fairly.

Balius

Calling it "disrespectful" seems like something of an understatement, all things considered. I'm less and less impressed with Mythic's attitude about this whole thing with every new story that comes out. It's not like the credits are some huge expense. The former developers aren't expecting Mythic to give each and every one of them a custom gold-plated plaque honoring their contribution. It's a friggin' line of text.

EmpressInYellow

Uh, don't the people working on the game know, "Screenshot or it didn't happen?" *crickets* Anyways, if someone worked on a project and contributed a certain amount of time and experience in the game, then they should be credited. Just like grips are credited in movies, even though they just move stuff around. lol They could just add an extra section at the end of the credits called misc. participants or something. *shrug*

SpearXXI

From what I hear the game will probably suck anyway.

Dalren

@Tyrannical: Exactly what I was thinking.

Anaralia

This is not news.

Again this happens all over the entertainment industry. It happens in the music industry, the film industry and the television industry. There have been thousands of cases where people have filed law suits for it. Some win, some loose either way its between the workers and the production company.

In every other industry the standard is you have to work all the way through the production to get named in the credits. I know this for a fact if you leave a production early for what ever reason it is up to the producers to get your name in and most likely they won't add your name in the credits.

Now sometimes companys make exceptions and sometimes they don't and again this is where people file law suits.

taftsearlobe33

The credits will now only contain one name, Paul Barnett.

Rubezh

I can't really be absolutely sure, but I don't imagine that an unregulated crediting system that this very article says is flawed on a fundamental level, and that it may take 70+ hours of game-time to be able to access (per game, per applicant) is quite the proof of employment people here seem to think it is. Even if it were absolutely flawless, and easily accessible on a whim, it's still only a first and last name and allows anyone with that same name to take credit. Just because my name might be Tony Hawk, it doesn't mean I'm the star of Tony Hawk's Downhill Jam, dig?

I imagine that a potential applicant at a new company is either going to take a person's word for it or call the company that person is leaving and get verification, like they do in every other business anywhere in America. If McDonald's can get someone to call Al's Pancake Hut before hiring a fry-cook, I doubt EA execs are playing through games for months on end when they're hiring a new coder.

Balius

@sander_dutch: for most creative industry you have a demo reel of your stuff so being named in the credits is not as importent as you might think.

Of course in all other parts of the entertainment industry if you don't work to the end of a project its up to the Producer weather or not you get your name in the credits. Some times people sue for this and some times they win some times they don't its a case by case basis.

taftsearlobe33

You need to be credited to be able to put games on your resume and build a portfolio.
If you don't get mentioned in the credits, any future employers might doubt your involvement in creating the game.
Don't be assholes, and give the credit to those people, they deserved and need it!

sander_dutch

Disrespectful is spelling your name wrong on the credits, removing your name from the credits is something else entirely.

Snake726

@taftsearlobe33: Actually, being named in the credits is incredibly important, even if you do have a "demo reel," because in a great number of industries, crediting (and what you are credited as) directly affects how much you are eventually paid.

Fnor

I really don't see how this is a priority. I was a game tester for almost 2 years, and my name was left off a lot of projects that I worked on for months. Moreover, so were many people at work.

I mean, where do they draw the line? If someone worked for a month on the project, does that mean they get a credits spot?

Just enjoy the game when it comes out and ignore this whole mess, IMO.

Musai

@Balius: A lot of people don't read the credits. But that's not the point. You worked on the game, you deserve to get mentioned. It's just a matter of respect.

But that's not all. There's this nifty little page, called MobyGames. Allmost any game ever made is listed there, together with it's credits. Often, if you're looking for a job in the industry, the studio will do a quick search on MobyGames, to see what you've worked on so far. It's a nice way to check, if the person who's applying for a job, really worked as lead game designer on Call of Duty 4, for example.

If you're not in the credits of the game, you won't have that game in your MobyGames profile, which has a real impact on your chances of getting a new job.

@taftsearlobe33: A demo reel is very important to get your first industry job and including it never hurts. But once you've spent some time in the industry, companies tend to look at your credits. Also, demo reels are great for artists and coders can allways send in code samples. But gameplay scripters, game designers and a whole lot of other people working in games have it a bit harder to send in examples of their work.

little_dragon

As a developer I find this very concerning. I'm a member of IGDA, and I'm glad they are standing up for these people. It is morally reprehensible to intentionally refuse to credit these people in this way. If you don't want to be credited I'm sure that can be accomadated.

But an individual wanting to have their name attached to work that they have done - I think its only fair. I like this game, and I'm interested in playing it, but this fiasco has soured my enthusiasm a bit. I want all the people who worked on it and want to be credited to receive their dues. It is not too much to ask.

Eclectus

Yet another reason that the games industry needs to be unionized. I truly hope that this starts a class action lawsuit.

masterdingo

@masterdingo: If you like playing quality, fun, and original games I highly suggest you rethink that unionization idea of yours.

Sandvich

Unrecognized? Ya right. No gamer reads the credits. I can count on one hand the number of devs I know by name. Gamers skip every credits that come up and when they cant, they walk away, get a sandwich and come back when its over or sit adn bitch about it the whole time.

Same with movies. No one stays for the credits. No one. The only time they do is for the scenes at the end of the credits on those rare films and they bitch about having to wait or just chat while ignoring the damn credits.

These people get recognition in the form of the money they were paid. The developers know what they did, they know what they did and their resumes know what they did. So, if they want another job, they show their resume, the new dev calls Mythic, they say, ya, they worked here and that's all the fuckign recognition they need.

Who gives two flying fucks about being in some scrolling list of a 1000 names that NO ONE READS?

KirbyMorph

Give credit where it is due. Otherwise, to use an Americanism, you're an asshole.

Aname

@KirbyMorph: People who WORKED on something. Who CONTRIBUTED to a game, movie or other work.

When they are applying for other jobs, there is veritable proof that they have worked on this project in a certain capacity.

They're not asking for a plaque. Just a line in a piece of code. Is that too much to ask?

Spoony Bard

"I mean, where do they draw the line? If someone worked for a month on the project, does that mean they get a credits spot?"

It's called "additional art" or "additional programming", etc, in the credits and it's usually at the end of the credit list.

They and other companies that do this kind of thing have no excuse.

JohnnyLA

@KirbyMorph: I imagine the people who actually worked on the game like seeing their names in the game. I know I do.

miniboss1232

I thought when we went over this last time, it was said that pretty much every game that's been in development for some time goes through through this sort of thing. That doesn't make it right, but why is everyone singling out Mythic right now for it? What about... every other game dev and movie production house?

Seriously guys, go grab your torches.

Defenestrated

People always bring up the fact that no one reads the credits. Though it's beside the point, here are a couple ways to fix this:

1. Make the credits more interesting (genius, I know).
2. Provide achievements/trophies for viewing the credits until the very end.

ReidKimball

@Balius: So an author putting their name on a book cover is vanity? Or having the opening credits listed on the back of a DVD is vanity? Maybe its more getting deserved recognition for something you worked on.

Interstella5555

@little_dragon: Well said on every point in your post.

ReidKimball

You know, this has happened to me twice now (no, I wasn't one of the disenfranchised WAR people). Once, it sucked. Really bad. I can't claim that game on my resume, and it feels like you've pissed that time away. The other time, I was incredibly greatful that they were pricks. I didn't want my name on that POS, and viola! My name was only in "Special Thanks," which doesn't count for shit.
That being said, I think giving credit to people who have labored on your product is the only right thing to do. To not give them at least some credit is really just a pathetic, schoolyard-bully mentality.
Just give people a chance to opt out if they wish. :)

Malkiyyah

@Sandvich: If you like playing games created on the uncredited blood, sweat, and tears of unnamed developers unable to get new work because of their anonymity, then enjoy your game in blissful ignorance of the real world around you.

masterdingo

On one hand, adding the credits wouldn't be that hard for Mythic. On the other hand, who cares!? Why do these people who either left or were fired feel they deserve a credit in the game? A little protip for these people: No one reads them. Your credit is basically for you and your friends to look at, that's it.

Sushmonster

I'd be interested to know what the normal policy is among publishers and developers. Certainly at Midway Chicago the unwritten rule was "If you're not employed at Midway when the game ships, your name won't be in the credits". You could transfer to another studio but if you left the company, you wouldn't be listed. It was viewed as a mutual support philosophy.

Do the majority of companies follow the same tack (it seems WAR and thus EA does)?

Personally I think it's an area where it wouldn't hurt the industry to grow up a little bit. I don't know that we need the strictures of the Director's Guild Of America, but when career development is impacted by the whims of an individual company or team, that's not nice.

And all you ordinary gamers out there, take a look at a credits list once in a while. Sometimes the scope of what was spent on a game is betrayed by one. I just finished MGS4 this weekend and counted 40 programmers in their main credits list. 40! And they list 4 people just to script controller rumble. Imagine being in a room with 3 other people, probably for months if not YEARS, just setting up when the controller shakes. Nothing else. Just that. That's why our publishers charge $60 for these games.

grahamwest

@Sushmonster: Yeah, hey, why credit anyone for anything? I mean, if the credits are so irrelevant, we shouldn't even bother listing them in the first place, right?

As for why they feel they deserve it if they left or were fired: if their contributions are still in the game, it's irrelevant. The credits aren't a list of "Who works for the company now". They're a list of who contributed to the creation of the game. By excluding someone from the credits, you are, in essence, denying their contribution and attributing what they did to other people.

EmpressInYellow

@masterdingo: You assume I agree with the decision to leave these contributors' names out of the credits list. I do not. I believe that everyone should be credited for their work.

I was pointing out that unionization is not the answer here.

Sandvich

I never understood why games have to have credits. I write software, and my names not on it.

The whole credits concept is ridiculous. Should the people who build a building put there names on it? Should the guy who dug a ditch for your sewer line put his name on it? Should whomever picked your fruit put their name on it?

I think credits should go, even in movies.

quyrean

@quyrean: I understand your point but there is one major difference between the jobs you listed and the entertainment industry. When the ditch-digger is finished digging the ditch he knows he has more work tomorrow. A large number of people in the games industry become jobless after a game ships and they need to find another project to work on. The same is true in the film industry. It's just easier to land the next job if your name is firmly placed on a successful product.

Sandvich

@quyrean: Ummmm the builders name is usually on the corner stone of a building.... Visible or not... They also have the architectural work they did and blue prints etc.... With a programmer you still have the code and there are credits on things like photoshop etc...

I work in the game industry and building up credits on games as well as a portfolio makes each job easier to get. When your in a industry with games and entertainment where you usually not with one studio for a long time (unless your overtly good...) you tend to need those credits and building of a portfolio otherwise sometimes it gets overtly hard to get the next job :(

linadragon

I have contributed to Kotaku by adding comments and sometimes adding relevent information so why is my name not added to the credits here?

I have beta tested games for years, I have even beta tested some games since Day 1 of testing yet I have never gotten my name in the credits. Shouldn't I get my name in the credits?

The one thing I find very odd is why are they singling out Mythic? This happens a lot and it is far from an isolated incident so why are we complaining so much that Mythic is doing it?

We don't know the full story so we don't know why they left or were fired.

taftsearlobe33

@quyrean: Because physical construction, while valuable, isn't analogous to creative effort like writing/art/filmmaking, maybe?

EmpressInYellow

Man, I can't believe some of the posts here. How would some of you like it if you worked on a project for a year or more of your life and had nothing to show for it in the end? No credit given for something you worked on, something you helped make. It's like a slap to the face.

People playing games may not care about the credits, they're boring in most cases and don't add much value to the player experience, but the credits are DAMN important to the people who worked on the game and for people to have something to show for when approaching future prospect employers.

Chillblain

@taftsearlobe33: No because you helped point out things. Sometimes there is a thank you list that they will list testers etc on but its usually their in house testers that are attributed alot of stuff... You contribute here but your not someone writing articles up for kotaku and if you did you would be accredited by having your account name/profile linked to the Written article..

linadragon

You don't need to be credited to put games on your resume.

No future employer is going to play through a game to view the credits to verify that you worked on it They will call your former employer(s) to verify employment and also contact your personal references to find out what you did in the past. Also, a good interviewer will be able to tell if you're BSing them about the work you've done.

In that regard, the game industry isn't really that much different than the commercial software industry. Nobody gets credited for working on Excel or Photoshop, which require as much or more work than a game. Why is it so important to get credited for working on Warhammer Online?

CodeMunki