I believe they should get a piece of the DLC market because most people won't download anything they don't already know so it could be made into a better comparison with iTunes.

On the other side, music that already comes with the game IS quite a juicy form of advertising, WB gets paid because obviously the disc songs are a huge selling point for the games, but it is also guaranteed advertising, want it or not the people that bought the game will see the bands and their songs (even if they never get to play some bonus songs).

Summarizing: Pay them good for DLC, keep the disc songs the way they are right now, no need to pay more I'd say

tavo31

It isn't that easy to code the songs for these games. I hate when people comment like they know something when all they do is guess and write it like it's a fact. Bobby is 100% correct that Warner shouldn't get more $$$ unless the market let them up the price per song to cover it, which I doubt the consumer would let happen. The music industry is at least 10 years behind technology and consumer needs and should get their heads out of the asses and catch-up quick!

AntiHiro

Suck on it Warner Bros.

Quilt

I say lumpi it.

lumpi

get em get em bobby!!! help take down the music industry. who cares if warner bros drops all their artists if you dont give em money. there are plenty other labels out there with bands that will sign.

EVIL_V2

Glad to see him go on the record and say that Warner needs to shut it's mouth and stop whining. They should be happy with what they are getting, and instead of biting the hand that feeds them, they should be working with the gaming industry.

The music business has been in a downward spiral for years, and the success of GH and Rock Band is the best thing to happen to the music industry in the last decade. GH and Rock Band have demonstrated that it's song download component is a viable revenue stream for everyone involved. Many of the musicians have picked up on this already, too bad the corporate suits are greedy pigs and always ruin a good thing.

coalhalo

@NeVeRMoRe666: Of course, I would much rather see the money going to poor starving musicians than another money-hungry-corporate-fat cat-company.... grrr... EA, Activision, Warner Bros. Its all the same really...

NeVeRMoRe666

@hahnchen: lol we had the same thought at the same time.

karasu is my homeboy

Um...how will this affect Lips?

Where you can *supposedly* use any song you own to play?

karasu is my homeboy

The record companies better make the most of what they have now, because it can't be long before these games generate the gameplay dynamically via your mp3 collection.

Then they'd be fucked.

hahnchen

Gerat, now the record companies are going to hit us with DMCA complaints over songs we bought for way too little money. :P

Dave Silva

I haven't really kept up with this and to be honest, I'm heading on a road trip in five minutes but from what I've read here, and I'm sure I'm probably going against the grain, maybe Warner Bros. does deserve more money. I mean, Rockband, Guitar Heroes is nothing without its songs. The game is basically songs produced by Warner Bros. It's not like RB or GH is at all that hard to code for. Its taking the artists material (held by Warner Bros.) and making buttons to press with it. As for the free advertising argument, what about DLC? That's basically the same thing as itunes, sans you get to play the songs instead. But maybe I'm wrong, just opinions...

It just seems too often that we hate on anything and everything that goes agaisnt one of our own (gaming industry vs music industry) or big companies you know? It's not like Activisions hands are completely clean.

NeVeRMoRe666

WB seems to think they should get paid on a per play basis, like the radio, whereas GH and RB are more like those crappy K-Tel compilation albums of the 70s where you bought everything in a big package....good and bad.

Lard is right - 70s rock must die!

GrandfatherParadox

Last time I checked, people were buying a game and not the actual music files themselves. Now call me crazy if you must, but I don't think Warner or anyone else should be able to treat audio media that comes in a game, cannot be transferred out of the game by ordinary means, and sounds like crap when you don't hit the right notes just like iTunes downloads. There's a BIG difference and I think Activision is right to contest the idea of treating in-game media the same as iTunes downloads because they're clearly different.

BigDragon

Definitely well said. It seems as though warner's execs see Rock Band/Guitar Hero as a revenue stream rather than marketing that actually doesn't cost anything. Also, aren't there loads of statistics that show how DLC and disc songs are boosting record sales?

thefais

Tshouldn't expect the same amount of cut from Guitar Hero and something like iTunes. iTunes is where you go to buy something. Guitar Hero comes with prepackaged songs that are forced on you while you play.

Do you really think the wide audience of Guitar Hero already knew those songs unanimously? It's teaching tons of teens and younger people about older rock music that they've never heard before. It's more like cheap advertising than anything else.

karasu is my homeboy

@phoenixavatar2:
Don't underestimate the will of the big wigs to double dip on this.

Seriously though, well said Bobby!

Kyolux

Isn't it called Rock Band?

You Cannot Untoast

Having your artist on Guitar Hero is an advertisement that people will willingly play over and over again. Why is Warner Bros. complaining? Record companies have gotten so very touchy in this digital age.

dArk_stAr

is the music industry dead yet? not quite, we're almost there though and I can't wait for it to happen.

tralfaz23

From what he says, it sounds like publishers are paid less for GH and RB than iTunes. Which makes sense since releasing the music in games is fantastic advertising. There's a number of songs I've bought because I played them in GH.

phoenixavatar2

So they have to pay for the license of the songs, give them free marketing and they still expect them to pay them more? I think it's easy to see that Guitar hero has simply just taken it's success from putting there music into a game though so I'm half and half. They are getting payed for licenses though so I don't think they need any more.

Llost

It depends. If more money goes to Warner, will more of that money go back to the artists?

Spoony Bard

@NeVeRMoRe666: "The game is basically songs produced by Warner Bros. It's not like RB or GH is at all that hard to code for. Its taking the artists material (held by Warner Bros.) and making buttons to press with it." and you would know that because you work for Activision or Harmonix and you're part of the dev team, right? right?? no?

y2julio

Finally a CEO with some balls and sense.

y2julio

@tralfaz23: Let the music industry die, music will survive :)

MehGinla

PS: How long until this spat leads to Warner Records cutting off further access to their library in favor of developing their own rhythm game?

TRT-X

@thefais: Yep. The biggest example being the "infamous" 120% increase in sales for DragonForce.

TRT-X

@VicViper: re: why we pay $1.99 for a track in games

Well, the simplest answer for why we pay that much is because we will pay that much. I might actually derive more pleasure from being able to play the song in the game than just listening to the track itself, I'm not sure.

But also, maybe the labels do get more for game licensing rights than digital distribution rights, but they want even more than that. Who knows, really?

teeth7

@y2julio: Nice smug attitude there sweetheart, but there are plenty of people who know a lot more about coding songs for Guitar Hero and Rock Band than you think. Maybe start here or here and do a little heavy reading.

teeth7

It's very tempting to just blow off the record label bitching as usual. However, if the cut the artist and studios get are less than iTunes, why are we paying $1.99 a song for RB or GH download?

It's not like it takes millions of dollars to code a song from the recording masters. And for GH, guitars and bass is a lot less involved than RB's lyrics, guitars, bass, and drums.

And if they're not getting the same compensation as iTunes even, Activision must be making off like a bandit on each song.

So you, paying $1.99 a song are probably getting a bit screwed too. Not that you'll ever complain or question it.

VicViper

And why should he worry? For all their bluster, the music companies aren't in a very good position. Their screeds against iTunes haven't gotten them a much bigger piece of the downloadables pie. Their constant lawsuits haven't done a whole lot to stem the tide of illegal filesharing. If Warner pulls out, then Activision will still be able to find plenty of artists who would be happy to sign sweetheart deals in order to get their music onto Guitar Hero. Kotick has the advantage in this deal, and he knows it.

"However, if the cut the artist and studios get are less than iTunes, why are we paying $1.99 a song for RB or GH download?" Don't forget that Apple doesn't take a big cut for itself from iTunes. They mostly use iTunes as a vehicle for selling iPods, which is where their real profit comes from. Whereas with Guitar Hero, you have two corporations that are trying to make a profit from the deal, which certainly includes the little guys at the bottom of the ladder who need to get paid a yearly salary for coding and mixing the songs for release. So $2 is probably fair enough.

twobeef

Very rarely would I say this but my hatred of the music labels compels me to cheer for Activision and hope that they don't give a dime more that whats fair to WB.

NitrousO

I think it's safe to assume the original quote was edited to [Warner Music] from "those fuckers."

Jay

It's hard to pick sides when it's two corporate heavyweights going head to head, but if the record companies don't profit from licensing their tracks out, then they won't license them out. What's the point?

Sure, Dragonforce's album went up 120%, but it was a relatively poor-selling record prior to that (well, not bad for crappy power metal, but nothing like a chart topper). Plus, how much did piracy of Dragonforce go up following GH's release? Probably an awful lot more than 120%.

The record companies are suffering from piracy, and so if they think there's money to be had from the games, they'll try for it, and the rhythm game market gives them some leverage. All it takes is an extra few cents per track from EA and WB can make all their content exclsuive to Rock Band. Bobby's in the biggest company, but he's not in the only company.

stoneagedan

Whoa: what if a new game, perhaps Rock Band 3, was released online and instead of having to pick from a set list of pre-packaged songs, there would be a list of hundreds of songs and you would get to download 60 or so for free?!! If I could bypass ever having to play a fucking Aerosmith or Bon Jovi song again.

bysty

@NeVeRMoRe666: yeah, it's not like rock band or guitar hero were that hard to code. Forget about the graphics engine, the audio engine, writing code to figure out which note someone is singing in rock band, not to mention everything else that makes the game tick that work behind the scenes.

@teeth7: wow, way to let your ignorance shine. Programming an entire game and editing some songs are completely the same, right?

stevemkrenz

go bobby go

evetssteve

@stoneagedan: "Sure, Dragonforce's album went up 120%, but it was a relatively poor-selling record prior to that (well, not bad for crappy power metal, but nothing like a chart topper). Plus, how much did piracy of Dragonforce go up following GH's release? Probably an awful lot more than 120%."

First off, the piracy numbers are a bit misleading. The more popular a band becomes, the more often its going to be downloaded illegally off the net. Those numbers don't change much.

Secondly, the fact that Dragonforce was a small band to begin with means little. Or rather, it means a lot to the members of Dragonforce. If you're just a little metal band with solid material but only reaches a niche audience, if you can do something simple like get a song into GH / RB, that's not only a small source of revenue for you, but it's very cheap advertising. You should really figure that Dragonforce probably sells as many albums as the average metal band does, as the average metal band doesn't get onto MTV, and doubling that number is a pretty damned good accomplishment.

twobeef

@Stone.... The problem is they are facing piracy and they are saying its hurting the artists.... Frankly i find this a bunch of hogwash considering what alot of these record labels are actually paying the artists for track downloads or record sales.. A 14.95 album prolly earns them something like 50 cents if that... They earn jack off albums most of their money is made off Concert Tours...

I root for anyone against the record industry as it stands now because they are corrupt as heck... As Falsoman pointed out the RIAA is a HUGE problem. The artists need to get a better cut as do the composers these big wig record companies are the only people getting their profits hurt not the artists...

linadragon

Actually, I think they owe money to Konami for ripping off Guitar Freaks.

banana_ridah

@stoneagedan: But the thing is that Record Companies are already being paid (About 50 cents for DLC song). And this is an extra to their existing model where they already profited from album sales on any other digital distribution method and on retail, wich is basicly the only way in places where DLC hasn't taken off. This wasn't part of their existing plans, so it was pure profit and a comusion that they already accepted.

They just saw that this was a big model (wich is also paid by consumer publicity) and they want a bigger cut.

Falsoman

P@VicViper: Here's the thing, thoug. In iTunes you are paying 1 dollar where about 20 or 25 cents go to apple and the rest goes to the Record lables for each time you download the song (if you lose the file you pay again).

On Rockband you are paying to Activision for coding the stuff into the song, to the music lables for the track and to the game company (wich must be getting a cut as they do with all the thing on the online stores) for downloading with your account as many times as you want.

And basicly because you are WILLING to pay them that much. If people didn't spend that much on a song they would be cutting the price a little bit. Everything that is being sold is not at a price to benefit the consumer, the price is carefully studied to know the bigest price that people are willing to pay for without interfering with the botom line or expectations of the company.

Also, the RIAA is something that needs to get their act together or die already. I read somewhere about a guy that made is own music (a composer) and put it online, and was contacted by the RIAA with a cease and decist letter because the music he composed may be similar to present of future music by RIAA's artists. If i can find where i reed that, i'll post a link. It is completly sad.

If the composers and the performers would get a bigger cut, it would be different (not much) but they recibe basicly nothing for their work.

Falsoman

@banana_ridah: Activision is actually paying Konamy, at least for the Guitar peripheral, i belive.

Falsoman

@teeth7: So you are NeVeRMoRe666 agent now? ScoreHero and Guitar Hero are two different games. Nice try though "sweet heart".

y2julio

Any business that involves the music industry, is doomed. Look at iTunes, it's the only thing saving them from piracy and they want to make it crash and burn. They already are putting ads in music so I'm not going to pay for any of the new stuff, specially since Fergie is telling me in her song her Motorola Rockr is getting her into the best clubs.

VakeroRokero

@Falsoman: oh, that's cool. i thought they were going to court.

banana_ridah

This is true, as I can't take the song with me after I'm done playing the game. Plus someone had to create the ability to play the song. If any record company folk read this, I bought dozens and dozens of albums after I played the RB and GH series. Stevie Ray Vaughan, Rush, Lynyrd Skynyrd etc. All because of the songs in those games.

kylo4

Yikes. Activision must have started taking the same arrogance enhancement medication that Sony been on for the last couple years. "Yeah, music industry! What are you going to do? It's not like there another, better rock music videogame out there. Oh, wait..."

OutsideTheBox

He doesn't have reason to worry.
Like it or not, rhythm games like Guitar Hero are actually keeping the interest in certain genres of music alive.

It even ressurected some pretty dead bands.
I wonder how many people would know about DragonForce if it wasn't for GH.

While I listened to plenty of trash and heavy metal some 10 years ago, I probably only started listening to it again because of GH...

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

I don't like Guitar Hero too much, but any man who tells off the record companies is a hero to me.

VengefulRonin

@NeVeRMoRe666: "You can't argue against the fact that music is what sells the game."

Typo, fixed.

NeVeRMoRe666

@AntiHiro: @y2julio: @stevemkrenz: Alright guys, sorry for the late late reply. I'm actually camped out at a Best Western somewhere :) Sweet digs, sweet digs...

Anywho, since most of you attacked my point about GH or RB being not at all that hard to code for. You maybe right. I'm not involved in anyway with that kind of thing. I'm actually quite ignorant about it. I didn't mean to belittle the devs or the people behind GH or RB. I'm sure its hard work. But what I meant was that certainly, you can't compare a game like RB or GH to something like Gears of War or MGS4. The graphics are "meh" at best and aren't really a vital part of the game. Plus the little "screeches" you get when you miss a key and the whole microphone thing doesn't seem at all that impressive to me (well when compared to the aforementioned games). Its stuff I've seen ten years before in arcades. But thats all really beside my point. The techno mumbo-jumbo, not really what I was getting at. The devs and Activision get paid all the same and GH and RB are certainly turning out a huge profit for them. However, the difference with GH, RB and GoW, MGS4 is that their success doesn't rely entirely on them (the devs) to be successful but rather, success is attributed to the music itself. You can't argue against the fact that music isn't what sells the game. And in that regard, certainly the music industry (ie. Warner bros.), where the production of music isn't at all that easy, deserves some of that fat pie Activision is eating. Of course, it would make more sense that the money goes back to the artist themselves, which Spoony brings up for Warner bros.

I hope I clarified my position, I'm exhausted after 6 hours of driving, but would be happy to answer any responses.

NeVeRMoRe666

@Nevermore..... Warner Brothers already probably get a cut of sales from each game for the artists they have on the games.... They also get paid a licensing fee.... They are basically asking for more money then they are already getting... The thing that pisses me off is they wont give the money to the artists they will pocket it for themselves... And that is why most of us go against the Music Industry and why we say its evil...

Its not that they charge us 14.95 for an album... Its that they charge us 14.95 then give the artist 25-50 cents from it.... Also something like guitar hero or rockband would likely be somewhat more complex then ohh say gears of war to code in retrospect... Graphically it may not be as hard to build but the code base itself is likely far more complex then something like gears of war.... They need to use things like timer heavy things. Knowing when each note passes etc , knowing which note was pressed , voice recognition for singing , and recognizing everything going on from possible multiple sources...

Gears likely uses even timers to trigger specific events, Mobs are recompiled to be at specific locations and follow a set logic of how to react when they see the player... It needs to realize you pressed a few buttons here and there and a fire key.... (even more simplified on the PC actually) The fact is most games have about the same complexity to Code for... Your comparing graphics and not the code end as to what makes the games "better" but thats not really a fair assessment since graphics have little to do with the actual code base....

That said i'd say Guitar Hero / Rockband have parts in the code base that are far more complex no matter if they look as good as gears or MGS4 because as i said graphics have little to do with the code base (shaders do but thats not horribly complex at all these days..)

linadragon

Also note there isnt some mass pre owned PC title market.... We need to wait for price drops (IE depend on the developers to drop price) before we can get alot of games at a cheaper price. This is due to CD keys and the fact that places wont take a PC game if its been used because the key is already used.... Maybe they would if it was a sealed box that was never opened but other then that. We always need to buy for what the developer is selling it for (games tore mark ups included...)

linadragon

erm that was placed in the wrong section apologies....

linadragon