@phinehas: don't really see how RPG = create. you kill lots of things just in a less realistic way.

just to play devil's advocate i can probably think of more 'creation' games from the west than japan. the sims series, LBP, dogz/catz/petz/etc, pixeljunk eden (you create a garden), etc.

noliferuin (PSN+XBL)

Another long post incoming.

Very interesting article, however, I tend to disagree with Yasuhara with his idea of "fear" as a motivating factor i.e. "fearing" something enough to either create or destroy in order to assuage that "fear".

Obviously there is the "fear" of failing by getting wiped out or failing to complete an objective, but I simply haven't played a game that has made me empathize enough with a character/characters so that I'm actually concerned about what will happen to them. I've read books that have created that sense of empathy, but I feel video games as a medium simply hasn't reached that level yet (delicious punnage).

In addition, in most games it's the developers themselves who determine what your available responses to a situation are, and while Yasuhara uses the example of Pikmin and Gears of War to point out the supposed differences between Western and Japanese game philosophy, I think that merely highlights the difference in the two cultures when it comes to what each considers entertainment; not as any sort of statement on deeper philosophical desires like creation vs. destruction (whew, run-on sentence goal completed).

Westerners (Americans specifically) prefer their entertainment to be easily accessible, bite sized chunks that can be easily digested, and frequently this means shooting and action games, games that you can pick up and put down quickly. While I can't speak authoritatively on Japanese gaming habits, from what I've seen they prefer games that are a bit more complex and which might require 40-60 minutes per play session, RPG's and whatnot.

However.

Westerners also brought the first MMO into creation (Ultima Online), probably one of the biggest examples of "creation" from Yasuhara's definition. If you didn't band together with others, UO was a very unforgiving place. In addition, one of the consistently largest and most successful type of games in Japan has been arcade fighting games (Street Fighter and co.) and without a doubt that is one of the most "destructive" modes of gameplay according to Yasuhara's definition.

Ultimately, while he is definitely correct that there are culture differences between two cultures (duh), I simply don't agree that it is due to any inherent desire to "create" or "destroy", but rather due to the differences in entertainment philosophies of the two cultures. The real interesting piece would be to study if these differences could eventually *result* in a culture of "creation" or "destruction" by limiting what entertainment choices were available for a time and whether people would go back after they had been acclimated to one view or the other.

Loate

@agies:

While I agree with you, there are some cultural differences in how violence and creation are approached. For example, my want to build a catapult battle level in LBP. Yes, I want to create. But the point of my creation is to destroy the guy on the other side of the map.

At the same time, I love Dynasty Warriors. But I also doubt Japanese would like Merc 2, on the simple basis that they have a very liberal use of a tactical nuke being used as a selling point in the ads.

PapaBear434

@sachow: And we like to destroy all of that stuff... and replace it with solid christian family values.

theuglyteradon

@sachow: That arcade game was created by Korea, FYI. (For the Japanese market, apparently.)

Brian Ashcraft

I'm a bit of a hybrid. I am desperately looking forward to LittleBigPlanet and making a catapult-battle level. At the same time, I'm looking forward to playing Mercenaries 2 on Sunday and blasting everything I see to a powdery consistency.

PapaBear434

Why are you giving this stereotype the time of day? As a so called Westerner, I've had as much fun with Civilization, Populous, and the FF series as any other white bread eating cracker. The only difference between Japanese gamers and Western gamers is that the Japanese have a much higher acceptence for tentacle rape, child pornography, and masturbation. Now take that stereotype to the bank.

midwynter

Yeah, Japanese people like to create soiled panties vending machines, butt poking arcade games and tentacle porn.

sachow

I think you can apply that to more than games. Take for example the Patriot Act, that was accepted out of fear. Then again if you want to pass a bill, or control a society, you just have to make them affraid whether with lies or not.

As for Japanese game violence, most japanese games that have violence do it in a rediculas way, like super powers, or add abit of humor or cutness to it. One thing japanese games do, do though, is shows the bad guys perspective, usually a bad guy in japanese games, has honorable motivations, just turn evil or bad, thhats my view anyway :P

Omniel

One thing I've noticed is American developers tend to create and like the "sandbox" game route. Whereas I have yet to see a Japan developed game with this concept.

Same with Asian gamers as well. We generally tend to like story driven games more. Sure it may be linear, we don't mind. =D

We're just not into sandbox games I observed. Though most Asian gamers are slowly getting into it.

Oh and this is in no way represents the opinion of all Asians. Just a fact I observed from friends,other gamers and from reading.

excaliburps

To Agies:

Very good point. Japanese gamers seem to relax just as well as Americans by "destroying" other players in games like Street Fighter and such. I do see his point in saying that Americans seem to gravitate more towards action games (i.e. Gears of War) than Japanese gamers. I believe Devil May Cry is more successful here than there.

But again, very broad brushstrokes. Japanese pop culture still has a lot of violence within its manga, anime, and movie culture.

animeman59

I guess he must have been surprised at the differences between Jak & Daxter and Jak 2, which was guns, guns AND MOAR GUNS!!!!

excel_excel

SPORE

tralu

That's a very broad brush given that Westerners developed the Sim games, The Incredible Machine, Little Big Planet, and countless other games that encourage or at least offer creation as an outlet vs destruction. At the same time Japan has brought us Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil, Dynasty Warriors, and countless other "destructive" games. I won't disagree that Japan has a different perspective regarding violence which changes the presentation but this doesn't change the fact that Japanese are buying these games.

agies

Very interesting article regarding the "fear" aspect of a player.

DigiMish

Its an interesting idea, and seems to have a lot of merit, from economic factors to the sorts of games played between the nations.

Ladi

I've heard that kind of thing before, but I think it was from one of those "What do girls like?" discussions. One point was "Girls like to create" (Sims, etc) and "Guys like to destroy"

For Japanese gamers (not including the arcades) I've always thought the most unifying thing was that they liked stories with depth, meaning, complex characters, fleshed-out universes...

Europeans have a strong affinity for "artistic" games. Just look at Ubi's recent stuff, most adventure games are European now too.

Americans I don't think are about "destruction" per se, but perhaps domination, control, victory. Usually destruction happens as a means to those ends.

elevenoverzero

This might actually have some meat to it. Can anyone think of some concrete examples? All I'm coming up with is the FPS (destroy) vs. RPG (create) example.

phinehas

As an American who is married into Japan, I agree with this man.

badasscat

Ummm... But their media does not reflex that. It's more so amplified in the youth.

Then again his comment is coming from a society who is sheltered from violence by western nations.

Yes. We differ in our interpretation, expression, and reaction to our environments but at a base level we are all the same.

Japanese or Asian philosophy on attaining happiness or its outlook on "purpose" is based on "goals".

Your at the bottom of the hill, your purpose is to roll the rock up the hill" and the next and obvious question is "then what?" but that question is foreshadowed by "another goal". If I likened it to gaming,
i would liken it to MMORPGs (which could explain their popularity overseas). Next go get ten more rocks to get to the next goal. Go to school, go college, get a job, get married, have a child, etc. "Life" is "a set of goals". The problem comes when the culture is faced by a question that is the basis for western societies outlook on purpose and that question is "why?" The why in eastern culture is viewed as counter productive and IMPO is attractive to the Japanese youth who naturally ask parents "why" but then are confronted the "goals" ideology and then circularly ask "why".

In all of this there seems to be IMPO an over arching theme of erotomania and megalomania. Pleasure and Power. Your goals will enable you to gain "what you desire" and/or "the power and respect" you wish to exert/demand.

Ergo Japan's "destructive process for feeling safe" is masked through its economical power and (US)America's process is more base and transparent and very much so more realistic. I would bet if the world outside of Japan decided to pull a Cuba and seized all its local Japanese interest (capitol, property, goods, etc.), Japan would get primal western style faster then you can say Banzai.

dadeisvenm

@midwynter: He isn't tossing out malicious stereotypes. He's just harping on what he's noticed as a developer.

Culturally, I agree with him. I believe Americans like myself feel safer when enemies are no longer a problem. Japan's society seems to hinge more on groupthink and fitting in, so they may feel safer if there's more of them around. Still, his (and my) generalization may be a bit broad.

Anyway, that's a great interview. It has always bothered me how little credit Yasuhara gets for his major part in Sonic 1. His ideas regarding level design are fascinating.

Do Kesubei

@denki: You have no point, you say that being in a homogeneous society makes fearing differences in society harder, but that is ridiculous. Largely homogeneous societies fear smaller differences even more than societies with a diverse mix of people. This is seen clearly in the way treats foreigners, which is terribly, especially blacks.

Also, why do you feel the need to put down Western culture. You have no problem putting down hunters, monster truck followers, and other American forms of entertainment, but I don't see you saying anything about the sexually deviant Japanese society or how they have massive suicide rates, like fondling women, emasculating men to the point they look like women, and glorification of rape.

dtm3

@denki:
This.

Antialias

That is an interesting cultureal difference I never gave much thought, but now that he points it out I can see where he's coming from.

EmeraldDragon

More posts on Kotaku that, again, demonzies or puts down Westerners in favor of boosting the Japanese or Asians. Fact is Japanese have just as much or more destructive elements in their games than Westerners do. They have games of seducing little girls, pointing guns in the characters mouths and pulling the trigger, Persona I'm looking at you, not to mention their fighting games and crap like Dynasty Warriors.

I also believe he is extremely wrong in saying we, Westerners, are motivated by fear.

dtm3

This was an interesting article, but it was definitely missing a commentary on a huge part of the Japanese game market: sexually deviant games. Americans like to blow shit up in their games, but Japanese (According to sales figures) love sexual deviancy more than everything else on the market. It's a market that barely exists in America. You could say that they like to create by dressing childlike digital girls up like school children and impregnating them, but the games very rarely involve impregnation. So, I would say that Japanese games, on the whole, in broad strokes, are very exploratory (RPGs, Sex Sims), more than constructive. And American games, through a strange element of sexual repression stemming back from our Puritan forefathers, are far more violent to achieve lower levels of stress and a sense of disconnect.

masterdingo

I really get sick when someone pretends to be more cultured in their character or game design, like when someone compares Solid Snake's polite neck cracking with Master Chief's utterly barbaric crack-you-on-the-back-of-the-neck.

Edge of Blade

By create, does he mean create a culture in which women are denigrated, children are sexualized, and people generally lack the imagination and independence of the west? If not, I can't agree with him.

LedRush

Aren't Japanese "famous" for copying? Always thought so. Guess I was wrong.

Creasy

A Japanese person that saves money? I've met maybe 1 out of a hundred. My good friend has a cellphone held together with duct tape and $300 Gucci glasses.

One of the reasons for the whole Japanese people not liking destroying things was that little incident involving America dropping two nukes on Japan and slaughtering a ton of people. Anyone remember that from history? Post WWII, the Japanese went on a rampant peace...rampage... in part due to the treaty signed with the US, but mostly as a reaction to the atrocity of the bombs. It has become part of Japanese society, so much to the extent that many Japanese have a rose-tinted view of Japan's ancient history, pomotion of the idea that Japan has almost always been peacefull. One of the reasons that China and Korea riot whenever a new Japanese history book comes out, and also one of the reasons why the Japanese still trust Mahayana based Japanese buddhist sects (see Nara Era).

The idea of destroying things as an expression of fear has quite some merit, as being a society that is around 97% homogenous it's a little harder to fear differences within your local society. Xenophobia might therefore abound, but we all know how that went. Also has to do with the group thing- I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together- so as there is no need to one up eachother (such as the various equivalents of American pissing contests [killing things, sports, big trucks to compensate for tiny penises, muscles...pissing contests]), Japanese don't jive with all the destruction as a show of power.

However, recent years have seen a backlash of the peace is everything idea, as K2 viewership is on the rise, as well as FPSes. It's all very interesting from a anthropological point of view. I could go on for yearzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

denki

@Yin:

But that's the thing...how many times do we see Western developers belittling entire foreign cultures with clearly fasle and insulting stereotypes?

LedRush

I see this flamebait set of a continentwar with the fanboys. So easy to set them off.

There's some pretty ridicoulus comments here, but yet I can't laugh at them :/

Yin

@phinehas: but the crazy thing is that YOU BUILD TO DESTROY! Resistance Fall of Man, Halo, and in other "destructive" typically US games (shooters), you can finish the game with the skill and strength level you started with but in Asia games you have to call comets out of the sky and friggin' enslave gods in the hopes of hurting your opponent.

dadeisvenm

@Do Kesubei:

No, this is another example of some idiot Japanese person putting themselves over Westerners by using cloudy, bullshit reasoning and generalizations. I'm shocked that a lot of you are buying into this when the greater part of underground Japanese culture is far more shocking than anything a Western game developer has done. Gamers are gamers, that's it. Pure and simple.

midwynter

From my point of view Japanese gamers tend to fall into the type that buy fighters and ridiculously difficult shooters or the type that buy RPGs.

Or games based on anime...

The main type of game that isnt as popular in Japan is action/adventure or FPS games as action games fare pretty well there.

Which is a shame since they make pretty good ones like Okami, Zelda and...

Well... Okami and Zelda...

They seem to be opening up tp realtime RPG games so the market looks to be changing...

Poor Japan they dont get ads like Mercenaries 2's

SaanZ

Yes, tentacle sex with underage looking schoolgirls is very creative.

heretrix

@phinehas: thing is, you make your characters amazing beings by killing more and more enemies. there's also a point to be made that you can customise characters in online FPSs and level up to unlock new weapons.

noliferuin (PSN+XBL)

@noliferuin (PSN+XBL): Yes, but you spend hours grinding and leveling your characters up to these amazing beings. In some RPGs you have your own town/airship, etc. I know, it's a bit of a stretch, but they seem to be more of a builder than a destroyer-type game, imo.

phinehas

I completely agree with Hirokazu Yasuhara. I feel the same way. Now if only I could get down the part of finishing what I create before jumping to the next project...

BigDragon

I´m also a bit of a hybrid. I love games that allow me to build and to destroy. I can play Cooking Mama, Mario Galaxy, Gears of War and Halo in the same hour. And I`m a westerner (european born in Brazil) but not american. I do like a lot of american games and culture and I love japanese stuff too. But here in Brazil people don´t really like to build or to destroy, they just like to pretend they play guitar and soccer with dualshocks. Not my case.

lucasreis

@excaliburps:

Yakuza / Kenzan series, and the new afrika seems to be a sand boxish type game. won't know till it releases but.@

href="#c7425187">sachow:

by going with your suggestions americans would love high school mass shootings, bestiality, being overweight, and scat porn.

seppukake

@Human Bomb: Gojira? You mean the film that was made to show the horrors of the atomic bomb and nuclear energy? Gojira is the embodiment of what happens when humans gain too much power and then can't control it. Watch the original one (the Japanese one, not the one with Raymond Burr). The ones afterwards Gojira turns into a good guy and saves human lives- compared to American monster films where lots of people die. Same goes for Gamera. Buildings being smashed to hell is our fault for building cities where there are, apparently, a billion gaint fucking monsters roaming around.

denki

Gamers/otaku, as a collective culture, NEED to get off the collective Japanese ****. They aren't better than us, and idolizing another culture is retarded.

ZeroFlowne

@LedRush: I never took any side, I said this whole article and the statement was flamebait. And then I said the ensuing shitstorm was stupid, didn't really seem any of the people here are any better than the guy quoted. In fact, a lot of people seem worse.

Yin

@badasscat:
I was joking. And as I said in a previous post, why doesn't anybody seem to have a problem when Japanese make stupid generalizations about the west?

I don't have a problem at all with Japanese culture and I certainly don't need anyone to explain it to me. But there seems to be a double standard sometimes with the Japanese that can be pretty goddamn annoying. They are a fine and cultured people and I respect their tradition.

heretrix

The header to this article is pure misinformation designed to cause a kneejerk reaction.

Sunjammer

@denki: Fcukign Gdodamend speeling erlors.

denki

"What is this about tentacle sex that keeps getting brought up? I am sure you could find something just as devious that has been explored in western history, but to use that as a cultural representation would be wrong. People need to stop bringing it up."

It kind of sucks when you generalize doesn't it?

Well that's pretty much the tone people are taking up with the interview. Now these people, myself included could be totally wrong about what he's saying, but that's the danger of generalizing an entire group of people.

heretrix

@heretrix: And we all know tentacle porn is all the Japanese culture has ever produced.

I think xenophobia on this site should be a disemvoweling offense.

Japan's got a several thousand year history, guys. We didn't even exist for the first 90% of it.

badasscat

Who's he kidding? Sure in GAMES there might be a tendency for a more constructive style, but how many Japanese games have you played that have death and destruction sewn into them?

ANSWER: A lot.

The world is always ending or there's some war or there's people killing themselves or some giant monster/robot/spaceship is attacking or the last magic in the universe is ripping it apart.

It might be subconscious, but nobody does destruction like Japan. Look at their cinema.

Akira had TONS of shit/people getting ripped apart.

Metropolis also had tons of shit falling to pieces and getting blown up.

Gojira???? HOLYFUCKINGSHIT as old as that movie is, there is nothing but a sense of hopelessness and destruction.

There's too many more to list and it's too early in the day to type, but honestly stop whining about how much more "constructive" your culture's style of design is when it's obviously a damned pissing contest.

Human Bomb

What is this about tentacle sex that keeps getting brought up? I am sure you could find something just as devious that has been explored in western history, but to use that as a cultural representation would be wrong. People need to stop bringing it up.
Our own culture is hardly faultless and that is enough to nullify all these petty, derogatory insults that people keep insisting on using.

I agree with everything he said. If you check current Hollywood films such as Transformers, War of the Worlds, or Spiderman, then you will be able to see what he is talking about. Underlying, contemprary issues such as terrorism are explored, good guys (Icon for USA) will always defeat evil and life will go back to normal.

Current issues are always reflected in contemprary media, such as music, film, books.

Strong Arm

@dtm3: With such a homogeneous society there are fewer differences within the local group to be afraid of- figure that on the surface everyone is the same, none of that "hey a black guy moved down the street, lock your doors" kind of thing, as it's just be "hey another upper-middle class Japanese guy moved in down the street, maybe he can marry our daugter." When looking without the local society, ie the global community, is when you get the crazy xenophobia and racial stereotypes.

As for Japanese and sexual deviancy, these are things that are carried out for the most part behind closed doors, and then only the most extreme (and shitty) cases get mainstream recognition, which thusly ends up labelling all Japanese as deviant. For Americans, trucks and hunting are the American way, and aren't hidden but boasted about. That makes it fair game tp pick, and I wager that America acts more on their sexual deviancy than Japan, it's just that the clergy is better at hiding it. Most of the Japanese related feti that people know about are bondage and subsequent degradation of women, the loli-con (lolita complex), rape, and probably scat/piss. Add to that crushing/male humiliation, gore and beastiality and we've got most of them covered. For Americans, take all the above, add diapers, cuckolding, furries- and a few more- and you'll find that the deviancy is about the same. While I haven't done the research and don't know where to start, I'll bet that America has more sex crimes proportionately than Japan does.

Ask Japanese women and a surprising amount of them (well over 50%) will state that the women's role is to take care of children- it has been a tenement of Japanese society for a long time, eventually put into words as the "Good Wife Good Mother" campaign from the 20's (and currently being enforced by the lesbian producing Takarazuka theater group, in a wonderfully succulent juxstaposition by irony). Given the choice between working Japanese hours or staying at home and raising the kids, I'd take the latter too. But of course we're talking about the sexual degredation of women, which is then, again, a point at where the extreme becomes the focal point and the norm seems forgotten. Have you seen regular Japanese porn? Almost, if not more, vanilla than most mainstream western porn. The women themselves get paid for their work or take pleasure in it (through casual acquaintance I know more Japanese S&M girls than I do American ones), it is only the viewer which is held responsible for their outlook of the women (who create the market). Underground/non-regulated crap exists in every society, and won't be taken into account here.

But, ok, to be fair, should I harp on Japanese people too? Well, they have a very cold (but nice) way of handling strangers, are socially awkward, have no personalities until they reach college (and some never develop them- it is actually a concern of the Ministry of Education), drink way too much, are responsible for countless atrocities throughout their history (most recently Manchuria, Korea, post WWII Korean/Japanese sex slaves), are much more open sexually (which allows for good times), don't pry into other peoples' business, of all the International Whaling Comission countires that still actively whale (mainly Japan, Norway and Greenland), Japan uses all of the whale, and they have no religion (87%-ish say they don't actively follow any religion, though Buddhism and Shinto are the two main ones). you'll notice some of those at the end aren't all that bad, so I'll add that child pornography isn't illegal here and apparently you only get fined and publically humiliated for indecent acts with children. Don't really follow that subject, nor do I want too. But, again, it is hard to know if there is more bad shit going down sexual avenue in Japan than compared to America, and then you have the whole cultural thing about it too- American society fiercely influenced through misreadings of the Bible, Japan influenced by...not the Bible, obviously. I blame the ancient shoguns for fucking their pages, just like the Greeks.

Anything else? Just as the Japanese have prejudices about foreigners, so do Americans. I'm obvisouly pro-Japanese, but that is because I've lived in America for so long that coming to a country that is either nice to your or shuts the fuck up and minds their own business is a very nice experience. Just don't assume I don't know that it's also shitty here, for a vareity of reasons, but it's the lesser of two evils (of the places I've been to and want to live).

denki

@Yin: No. By all mean please do comment considering the fodder you left.

dadeisvenm

*pulls out "Sims" series, "Spore" and "LittleBigPlanet" out of my back pocket and show them to Mr.Yasuhara*

Mr_Raccoon

He's definitely on to something...

magictroll

US games, kill people, get cash.

Japan Games, Kill people, for a greater good, and future.

if people dont see that difference, they are being simple.

Not all Americans, but to judge america by its culture on TV? its not a fair analisis, but to judge from TV, in America people just want to be famous, no morals, no sense of self development, just getting famous, and tons of shit, they dont use.

Omniel

At the risk of sounding defensive (being an American) I think Mr. Yasuhara is making a rather large assumption. Not one of generalization of the market, but rather one of why each culture plays games to begin with. I'll accept that eastern audiences play games to feel "safe", but that doesn't mean that us Americans are popping the heads off of locust and dropping nukes on the zerg for the same reason.

Creation, a very lucrative term and broad, is being taken a bit for granted here. In the current context it's fairly well fleshed out; make character, develop character, etc. That is a very eastern take on the word. Compare that to the use of creation in a western game: building cities, forming neighborhoods, creating entire species. You're still very much creating in such games and the focus is hardly ever on destruction (much less so than a typical JRPG) yet the enjoyment is not from a feeling of safety.

I was never any good at Sim City, I'll admit, I downright suck at all incarnations of it. Within 5 minutes of playing, my city would be in shambles, the people would be hurriedly trying to impeach me and giant space eyeballs would be vaporizing what was left. Destruction, but this is an example of a failed attempt, while attempting to construct I failed to maintain. In Sim City the player is CONSTANTLY on the brink of (or in my case in the midsts of) a city in ruins while attempting to expand. This is not a sense of safety, this is far from it. What is presented here is a creation game without long breaks in action.

So rather than drawing the thin easter/western line at creation/destruction, once again we find it at the cliché slow-play/action mark. Being completely blunt, the games that Mr. Yasuhara is referring to are games with lots of downtime between the still there destruction segments in which to "create".

I also submit that western audiences are, in fact, ATTRACTED to creation games. This is why Will Wright is so fantastically successful, he's one of the few developers in the world who's figured out how to properly balance creation with action. Going in the other direction I feel that eastern audiences are deeply attracted to a mix of action in their "creation" games with many recent RPG's shifting towards variations of real time combat (see: Tales of Vespa).

Ultimately I feel this was a sort of an over the shoulder elitist comment. An attempt to defame something that he doesn't understand, and perhaps even makes him feel insecure: action games.

He may go spread milk on girls strawberries....

BlueGeek

@denki:

hahaha you give people much credit. but thanks for the heads up.

seppukake

@seppukake: I think josh11223 was attempting to point out the fallacies of prejdices and racism by lumping in the Japanese with the Chinese in a very American manner (hence the lol). Of course, I don't know, and his record is short enough that he may have already been banned and is using a different name to post again. Don't trust people without avatars, it's like they know they're going to be banned so don't bother.

denki

talk about some bloated comments. I'll break it down:

1. Japan = 130~ million people
2. Hirokazu Yasuhara = c-list videogame designer

just being Japanese doesn't make one an expert on Japan. As a nation, it's far more complex than the fucking article implies.

rainofwalrus

I understand what he means. When he mentions "destruction", I think of Bully, GTA and a laundry list of violent games that were created right here in the States.

But then again, what about Katamari? That's pretty destructive o_0

Gnutslinger

href="#c7426949">josh11223: <--- Ban this ass. He's even getting the racial slur wrong.

one last thing.

why take anything this one guy says with a grain of salt? there's game developers all over the world. people say stupid things all the time but they're lucky enough not to be put into a public forum. just move on.

seppukake

@seppukake: It's not that prevalent nor as famous as other genres...No More Heroes was a sandbox game in the loosest sense right?

My mind wanders off whenever I play sandbox games...Not all mind you but most of 'em. =D

excaliburps

@seppukake:
"by going with your suggestions americans would love high school mass shootings, bestiality, being overweight, and scat porn."

You just described my Saturday nights.

LanciePants

I think what the guy meant was conflict instead of destruction.

Culturally (currently) Japanese people like to avoid conflict. I would say Americans are more culturally aligned to conflict ie; the founding of the country, civil war, civil rights movement, internet forums.

The following was an opinion, so if you disagree and you're American, You just proved me right! Ha!

seppukake

ll frkn chnks

josh11223

@elevenoverzero: "Europeans have a strong affinity for "artistic" games. Just look at Ubi's recent stuff..."

EDIT

"Europeans have a strong affinity for games with titles ending in 'Z'. Just look at Ubi's recent stuff..."

;-)

ThursdayNext

@BlueGeek:
You have been more eloquent than I with your statements and I agree with them.

mistersneak

@okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under):

Don't bring up human nature bullshit, cause not all humans are the same, the only thing that is human nature, is eating, and sex, animal nature, I am tired of people saying 'it's human nature" as an excuse to continue being the same.

Take someone like the Dali Lama, that would be above human nature? saying its human nature is stupid. Cause humans change as they mature. It's more accurate to say its humans animal nature, and most people are only that animal nature. sadly.

Omniel

@badasscat: actually, as a unified nation, Japan is only about 900 years old. prior to the four ruling clans in 1170, Japan was nothing more than tributary of China, [i]the people of Wa[/i]. It took thousands of years for the [i]the people of Wa[/i] to break free of the Chinese Polity Model. Maybe that's what you meant.

rainofwalrus

That's a BS blanket stereotype. Yes "painting with broad brush strokes", etc. But it's bunk.
In Japanese games you don't "create" anything. You follow the order that you're given. In many western games, you pave your own way. Japanese games rarely have the notion of making choices that lead to progress. They instead thrive on the notion of "going through the motions" which leads to "progress", aka the game lets you continue in its predetermined story.

Japanese games are as "creative" as movies are, on an interactive level. Nothing the player does impacts the so-called growth of the characters or development of the story, other than just being the warm body that's holding the controller. Boo, I say. BOO.

I think this assessment stems from a prejudice set in the 1940s. America blew the %$&@ out of Japan with a giant bomb. Most people know that the themes and trends in anime / manga / japanese games are influenced by this fact.
Japanese citizens witness the destruction and, like most citizens, don't have any way to confront it, and so they plug about with the daily grind of modern life.
Hence: Westerners just blow things up, while Japanese people pick up the pieces (as determined by their culture).
If this designer is saying anything more than what I've suggested above, I'm not seeing it. Let's stop painting with broad brush strokes and let's see some... I don't know; facts. Something to at least back up this claim that I personally find offensive.

Here's a start:
WESTERN
Oblivion
Spore
The Sims
World of Warcraft

JAPANESE
Final Fantasy
Mario
Zelda
Dead Rising

...
It's easy to pick and choose examples that suit your opinion, and these suit mine.

mistersneak

@BlueGeek: Sorry, Tales of VESPERIA. Spell check caught that one.

BlueGeek

No, I don't think that's the case...

Both markets have their fair share of "blowing shit up", as well as sim games and creative games.

I think it's more like... the games he worked on just seem to lean towards one or the other in the countries he worked in.

accela

I don't agree with him. These forces are all part of human nature and people have an internal struggle to balance them. The manifestation thereof can lead to many things that can be picked from any period for any given culture as to evidence of forces being their on macro-social proportion. Still, this is a personal struggle but he is allowed to generalize however he sees fit and ex-pats are allowed to agree with him... that's OK too.

@badasscat: America was built built on various cultures which Japan has managed to emulate well and in some cases even set some trends for (sort of like a giant cultural machine feeding back into itself) so let's not start the history penis measuring contest.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

" Not killing and blowing up things, which is a separate idea and coming in both markets." should be "common in both markets".

Kenofthedead

Nah the article makes perfect sense.

Americans feel better about themselves by bringing other people down and being competitive.

Japanese feel better about themselves by caring and creating an image about themselves no matter how fake it is.

kainzero

Everyone should read the article before commenting on a short snippet.

He talks of destruction in Japanese games, calling into account Pacman and stating it the idea to be vital for game design. He mentions grouping together as creation, teaming-up instead of destroying all the enemies in a field to combat fear.
This is the "creation" vs "destruction". Grouping together and saving money (or gil or rings or what have you), vs destroying all the enemies and spending as much as you can to build up right away. Not killing and blowing up things, which is a separate idea and coming in both markets.

I've worked for a Japanese company, I've worked for a U.S. company, and a British company.
All are different ways, all have different productivity, and all are good in their own way.
A commenter above mentions Japanese workers going all night until the job is done. That is true, but I've also seen long (and often unpaid) overtime far in the U.S. companies and worse (see that whole EA overtime mess from a few years ago). Bit better in the U.K., but overtime and overworking occurred there as well though much better vacation time mandated.

As for everything else, go visit Japan. Watch various travel shows on Japan that aren't marketed toward Japanese cartoon lovers, and read up on reports from Westerners who live there (of which there are quite a few sites and blogs of), and the like to get a better view.

Most importantly however for the time being, read the full article. Quite a different view when you understand an entire message as opposed to just a part of it.
Yasuhara makes quite a few intresting insights into developement of games as well as design, it's worth learning from.

Kenofthedead

being that many US games, the charactors are motivated in selfish motives, not all, but theres alot of games liek this.

Omniel

@okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under):

Depends if the struggle ascends upwards, above the animal nature, or automatic nature of man. Which is desire, and the ego. We dont use our whole brain, because we are not fully human, most people are caught in the trap of the constant struggle of wanting things. people spend so much time planning on how and what they want, and what they will do to get it.

I'm not trying to be rude, sorry if i am, but most people are ignorant to real self development. Which isn't entirely thier fault. But the point of the struggle is learning, but in the end thier is one. the internal marrige ;-) the Alchemical marrige :)

Omniel

Jeez. Gaming philosophy is one more thing we don't need in this world.

Parkington

@Omniel said,:
"US games, kill people, get cash.
Japan Games, Kill people, for a greater good, and future.
if people dont see that difference, they are being simple."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's a pretty ridiculous statement.

heretrix

@Omniel: It's not bullshit my friend, fear is at the very heart of humans. At it's most basic, violence is a reaction to fear and it's at the core of our being. The struggle I mention is the attempt (a believe) is the attempt of a being to understand those fears and creation can be one of many possible manifestations of that internal struggle. I would hope as a human that you and I have the same capacity as your "Dali Lama" to choose what ever balance we wish for. The statement that humans are fundamentally the same on a biological level specifically relating to the basic reflex of fears we perceive internally or externally isn't wrong. It's not bullshit.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

@rainofwalrus: Tossing around "Tributary of China" seems misinformed. True, they did pay tribute to China in super-ancient times (a few boats and wimmin) but weren't influenced by the Chinese much until the introduction of buddhism, and then didn't really become "unified" until the Tokugawa era anyway, which was only 400 years ago (as before then was the sengoku jidai, "warring states" period, which can hardly be called "unified"). Japan has always been defiant against China anyways, even from one of the initial letters between their respective emperors where the then emperor of Japan during whichever time it was written wrote a letter to the Chinese emperor, calling Japan "the land where the sun rises" which was meant to be an insult (and was received as one). And don't forget the trouncing of the mongol invasion fleets by two instances of incredibly lucky weather-

denki

@mistersneak: If only Yasuhara talked about Japanese games where things are destroyed as the point of the game, as he does.

If only he talked about an American game where the entire point is to create and he praises it, as he does with Viva Pinata.

Again, creating is referring to making a team and saving money as opposed to getting rid of all the enemies as soon as you can and spending that money for defenses/weapons as soon as you can.

I know why people misunderstood his comments from the blurb, but it's a shame most will only walk away with that instead of the full article.

Kenofthedead

@phinehas:

The RPG was invented in the west. Yes, even the JRPG. Every JRPG, from Dragon Quest onwards, is basically a clone of the old Ultima games.

Pantsman

@heretrix: Yeah... he's pretty much how the world sees America. It's sad really. Sure as a country we have lots of stuff to work out and we're far from perfect but at the same time, many countries are jealous of our influence and power. I'm not convinced any other country would fair any better with the influence America holds thus let them hate while we hopefully change for the better as a country... self-haters included.

...

@Parkington: I'm trying to deal with this one better then I dealt with the Katamari creators comments a while back. I'm now of the belief that developers are people too and should be allowed to express their personal opinion without fear of persecution. We respect these people as creators (whether they respect each other is an open topic) so it doesn't hurt to have a little insight into the larger belief sets that may influence their creativity. We don't have to agree.

[Convoluted Analogy] A murder and a doctor may both be able to write poetry and you may see hints of that in the verses but that may not have any bearing on who they are where as a clear insight into how they think may reveal key distinguishing factors into why they paint. We may never know if Hirokazu Yasuhara is a murderer or a doctor but I'm sure there's hints scattered through out his works but statements like this really begin to give us insight into how he may approach things. Whether or not we agree with the declarative portions of his statement, it's still interesting to see what makes the guy tick even if just a little.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

No desire, no want, no personality? Might as well be robots or the stones without that which drives us to be better and to experience.

Now moderation in all things, don't want too much or go to far in getting it, care for others, and remember that life's experience and knowledge is far more important then goods and toys. Beyond that however, we should have the desire to want and the emotions to go with it.
Without Ego, we wouldn't have intellectual-cognitive to understand, nor the conscious awareness to do more or become more.

To put it simply, we should live and not just exist.

Kenofthedead

I love ignorant and ethnocentric views from others; makes me appreciate my education.

With that said, I found the article rife with sweeping generalisations and instilled with undertones of Japanese hubris.

Being someone that's been all around the world and possessing a heritage of both Western & Asian ancestry, it depresses me to see just how far behind the times Japanese game development really is: this speaker is jabbing at a western psyche that, in his opinion, is motivated entirely by fear and destruction. Not only is that completely ignorant, it's hypocritical.

Here's an idea: rather than continuing a trend of lame, cheaply crafted Jap-scat games and insulting westerners for your failing industry, why don't you try innovating and finding broader markets with new games? Japan's game development has stagnated while the western world continued to grow and change.

Since we're blathering on about sweeping generalisations, here's one for you: Hey Japan, stop holing yourself in that microcosm of a country and telling everyone how the outside world is somehow not as great as the over-crowded, superficial, earthquake-addled rice patty you call home! Baka-Nihonjin!

resvrgam

@mpar: yes yes... because only Caucasians can be Americans. Excellent point. You get a gold star. Good job :|

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

and now all the "gringos" feel attacked

mpar

@mistersneak:

thank you, kindly

BlueGeek

@denki: Amen brother, amen.
That said, the Chinese use 日本 for Japan, which in Chinese means Sun's origin. It probably means the same in Japanese(though I'm not sure as I only speak Chinese and not both); but of note, the Chinese also use Dongjing or 東京 (东京 in simplified characters) for Japan's capital, Tokyo...which literally means East capital. I only state this because China already has Beijing (北京） and Nanjing(南京）, North and South capitals respectively. I find it an odd naming convention if only because China, in it's heart, still believes all of Asia belongs to her.

mike

i wish kotaku would avoid these silly stories

"westerners are this, and easterners are that" is a meaningless statement. there is nothing so broad that can be applied to that comparison of billions of people. its incorrect to even say that westerners live in the west, and easterners live in the east!

triclops41

Wonder if it has more to do with publisher and demographic directed design decisions than developer tendencies. When I look at Jak and Daxter vs. Jak II (along with PoP:SoT vs PoP:WW and others) I see publishers pushing what they think gamers want instead of just supporting a creative vision that devs what to accomplish.

But, then again, when I look at games like Psychonauts that probably fit into what Yasuhara is attributing to Japanese devs, the consumers shunned it as a whole. So maybe its less devs and more consumers. Dunno.

DARTH_TIGRIS

from the land of tentacle rape kiddie porn and panty vending machines?

banned4life

@deathbunny: I actually agree with you, completely... almost.

Do you discredit the sub-conscious? A nagging evolutionary leftover pushing you to be something unique and special? While, as you demonstrate, this is stifled in the everyday life, it can still come through (even if unknowingly) through smaller less active modes. JRPG's fit this mold: controlling (and to an extent, customizing) wildly visually and socially eccentric characters. Lending to why they sell so well there.

So yes, you're absolutely right, with slight augmentation.

BlueGeek

On a general level, I agree with the parts of his interview you've pointed out.

You can tell, when you play Western or Eastern games, that the creators have different ideals in mind. Which I think taps into his "fear" ideals as well. "Fear", of thing that stress us, and bring difficulty to our lives. Each culture has different ideals to live up to, from those, we find what looks "heroic" to us.

A western designer is more likely to have a main character looking beat-up, and mangled at the end of a game. We respond to that kind of thing more, I'd say. We don't want to see some false, overtly-pretty ending to a bloody massacre, we want to feel that the hard working character got what he worked for! And we can see how hard he worked in how rough he looks. But just as we view are everyday lives, most victories are seen as short lived; it's all somewhat bittersweet, not as ridiculously profound.

However, in most Eastern works, victory is celebrated by something gorgeous; The bad guys will cover themselves in gold, and hand-made materials and outfits; The heroes will obtain a beautiful state that is near divinity, and often this divine state has very feminine qualities. Characters actions are legitimized by the fact that they left a lasting impression on the world, something that will be remembered for generations. Plants bloom everywhere, the bright light returns to the world, etc. And the importance of humanity VS the importance of Higher powers is often put into question.

Each side has an OVERALL outlook, that the MAJORITY of their public desires. Of course there are various examples that support otherwise, but I think it's easy to see that there are strong differences, when comparing those that make up the majority. I've always found the Japanese style of story telling, and overall character presentation, to be much more interesting in games. Even the most memorable western characters are just naturally easier to forget to me, than the best of the east. Commander Shepard was a great character, yet I smile more when referring to Ryu Hazuki's epic adventures...

For me, it's because Japanese style games DEFINED gaming. Their ideals of color, characters with "grey areas" rather than black-and-white concepts of good VS evil, their exaggerated weaponry or physical mastery, that fills the screen in a dazzling display of power... These things are what made the 8, 16, and 32 bit eras in the past. And most modern western games oftentimes don't tap into those things at all. Which is fine; I won't be buying their games necessarily, but they've gotten a whole new type of people into games that probably wouldn't be involved before.

There are SURELY exceptions, and most of the people who make games that fit them are that way because they're influenced by Japanese games of old, like the Behemoth with Castle Crashers. These exceptions, not just for the west, but in the east as well, help unify gamers, and for that, I really appreciate them.

SAB-CA

I lived in Japan for 3 years. To consider creation a method for safety in a society that rigidly restricts and channels all behavior at all hours of the day--to the point that if you rebel, then there is an appropriate path in life and set of expectations which apply to you--thereby making your rebellion empty and meaningless, is, I think, talking about the idea of buy-in being necessary to keep your sanity. A japanese person has to like being intensely managed and deprived of personal choices for the most part. In a sense, the japanese lifestyle is like being The Graduate, only without the sexy jaguar next door.

In that light, to enjoy that existence, you have to invest yourself in what you're doing. Take extremely personal pride in the thing you made (that you were told to make, and pushed and pulled to bust your ass to make). If you cannot enjoy that, then the empty existence with no hope of a personal path or projects becomes overwhelming. One of the few forms of self expression is hobby groups, like martial arts, sports, playing an instrument--etc, which could be considered 'creative'. In a more literal sense.

In contrast, the expectation in America is to have some sense of self determination and independence--whether its true or not, or to what degree attempts to exercise it end up making decisions for you, rather than being decisions you, yourself, made, isn't the point. The point is that comfort is tied to the idea that you could say 'this isn't what I want--I'm giong somewhere else'. You see it reflected in the creative process, often enough, when discussions about the direction are often skeptical in tone. Since science is skeptical in tone, this doesn't mean we're fractious assholes (or at least, it better not, since that would make me a fractiuos asshole), but it's a feeling unfamiliar to the japanese. In japan society takes so much from you, it compensates with a great deal of etiquette designed to smooth over simple day-to-day interactions. In the US, society imposes relatively little on the individual, and as a consequence imposes as much as it can get away with. Whenever it can get away with it.

deathbunny

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned GTA4.

If anything, I'd say North America has more of a culture of catharsis through violence than saying they/we enjoy destruction.

TrickyNishidake

@okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under): Gringo refers to someone from the United States. No diffrent from me saying Yank.
It's not like people can go around saying U.S. American or estadounidense.

Kenofthedead

first of all, people stop giving credit to the west for games that we didnt make. viva pinata and little big planet are from the uk, while pixeljunk eden is actually a japanese game.

anyways, i love it whenever a discussion about western vs japanese development erupts, people always talk about how stagnant japanese game design is, and how blossoming western game design is. thats not even true, the only thing is that consoles have shifted from being based on arcade boards to video cards... being that jp is the leader in arcade boards, while we're the leader in video cards... it only makes sense that western gaming is now the main focus. these "awesome" and supposedly fresh games people are mostly talking about have been old news to the pc gaming community for a while now. what games can anyone throw out besides the occasional portal have come from the west that truly innovate, ESPECIALLY, if we are talking about the big name sellers this gen. Halo? Call of Duty? Gears of War? Grand Theft Auto? please... been there and done that quite a few times on consoles, and even longer on the PC.

if any market is doing anything fresh right now, id say its the uk/european market. ive been keeping an eye on them quite a bit this gen, and they've been taking strides to make gaming intersting again. once again, no disrespect to the fans, but being able to play rts, western rpgs, or first/third person shooters online on a dumbed down pc this gen is hardly impressive or innovative.

shouryuuken

The title was kind of misleading, I thought this was about developer innovation rather than "Asians like to collect things and improve their appearance while Westerners like to blow shit up."

Hisdon

@Pantsman: Thanks, Pantsman. I was hoping someone was going to point that out.

j00s

"As for how this goes back into video games, one thing you see a lot of in games is the act of "erasing," or "destruction." For example, in Pac-Man, you're eating dots -- wocka-wocka-wocka-wocka. That is erasing, and it's also a form of destruction. You're destroying everything in your path, and you're leveling out the entire playfield."

Pac-Man, Galaga, Street Fighter, Single Player FPS's, pretty popular in America during the Arcade boom days.

"But there's something else involved here: creation. Some people get what they want via destruction, but others do it via creation instead. For example, if I am feeling vulnerable, then I get more friends or party members, if you will, and make myself more protected -- or I go to town and interact with people to get that same feeling."

World of Warcraft, Multiplayer in FPS's, GTA: Today's popular games in America.

It could just be he doesn't understand what's popular in the modern Western World.

Tepoz

bwhahaha. oh what a storm this was.

bigman88zz

great article, but the quoted text is really taken out of context. its going to give people who dont read the article after the jump the wrong impression.

hageshiku

*Cough*Will Wright*Cough*

DrLilo

@shouryuuken: Er...the UK is considered to be "the west".

EmpressInYellow

@badasscat: Japan's got a several thousand year history, guys. We didn't even exist for the first 90% of it.

Right.

Now if you take that elaboration further and look at the wars Japan has fought you'll see why this statement is pure bunk.

Including only from the Azuchi-Momoyama Period of one unified Japan to present:
- Between 1568-1598: Invasions of China, Korea and India
- Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895
- Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905
- World War I (Allied)
- Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)
- World War II (Axis)

For a culture based on "creating" there sure is a lot of utter destruction.

He may not want to acknowledge the fact, but Japanese history isn't too terribly far from Western history in terms of wars for the sake of conquest. The critical differences are: 1. they didn't march in carrying the banner of the Church and proclaim they were trying to convert heathens; 2. they weren't as successful as the British or Spaniards.

Captiosus

@denki: what does "super-ancient" mean? Jomon peoples, Ainu peoples?

rainofwalrus

That was actually a very entertaining article to read. While I personally steer clear of Eastern titles due to design philosophies of the East. I did find myself agreeing, more then disagreeing with what Hirokazu Yasuhara was saying. He's definitely a practiced hand at his craft.

Brian Ashcraft, way to pelt the hornets' nest with some low hanging fruit. You're a master and the height of his game.

LanciePants

@animeman59: I don't think the point he's making is about violence. In a way, it could be interpreted as how violence is used differently. I guess it's a weird thought that violence can be used strictly for "destruction" and another for "creation," but I think it's about style.

Naturally, there are exceptions to the "rule." What he's saying may be broad, but it doesn't mean that it's concrete. It makes sense, nonetheless.

Lainface

@Billkwando: Shenmue was most certainly NOT the first sandbox game.

rainofwalrus

@Captiosus: As well as the bloody invasion of Okinawa (which was a TRIBUTARY OF CHINA at the time--wink wink, Denki) in 1872...

rainofwalrus

@excaliburps: Shenmue, which is Japanese, was the first sandbox game (IIRC).

Billkwando

So in picturing this difference between perceptions of Eastern and Western gaming, I came up with a hypothetical game in my head, which we'll call "Blow Up a Tank and Get a New Weapon."

It's a fairly straightforward idea, don't you think? One with elements you can recognize as being a part of a vast number of games over the course of history.

Now, from what I know of Western gaming, an EA-developed iteration of "BUaTaGaNW" would likely have a strong graphical presence, lots of realistic effects work to make for an immersive experience, and highly refined and detailed combat mechanics. Taking down the tank would require skill and strategy, proper placement of fire, and a fair amount of determination. After taking down said tank, the player would likely be rewarded with cash, and perhaps a title or other commendation. (Achievement unlocked: You Blew Up The Tank!) You take this bounty back to the base/town/what have you, and buy a new gun or a drone turret or something with your spoils.

A Konami-developed take on "BUaTaGaNW," on the other hand, would likely glaze over those combat mechanics that were so heavily focused upon in the first example. Perhaps you're not focusing on particular spots of the tank to bring it down, but combating the tank as a whole on kind of a higher, more abstract level. Your reward, on the other hand, would likely include experience points (you just brought down a tank, for crying out loud), perhaps a nominal sum of cash, and possibly items perceived to be salvaged from the tank you just eliminated, perhaps X kilograms of metal Y, which is instrumental in the development and production of a new weapon.

Both examples illustrate destruction of an obstacle and creation of resources for the player character. However, the focus of the gameplay in each example is shifted. I agree with above posters that the headline of the article is, indeed, flamebait, and contend that "destruction" and "creation" are constants in the majority of games. GTA deals with destruction of... well, whatever moves, really, but also allows you to create and fortify your stronghold with various resources. Katamari Damacy centralizes on destroying houses, cities, and eventually the world, but with the overarching goal of creating (or, rather, replacing) the stars in the sky.

I disagree with the concept of an "east-west line" separating ideas and tendencies in gaming. Sure, the east may tend toward creation, and the west might tend toward destruction, but I'd be hard-pressed to find an example of a game that lies entirely within the realm of either "creation" or "destruction." An effective and enjoyable game must have a combination of the two, while culture may dictate which has the greater focus.

NBHS

I've been living in Japan for a while now, and I don't entirely agree.

I've been talking to a lot of my peers here, and most of them dont know or have no interest in strategy or building games.

I might be wrong, but I think that you kind of need a keyboard and mouse for that kinds of games, and Japanese do prefer consoles.

uzshka

It's easy to see how he himself can be jaded though. He's a level designer. His entire job is to direct the creation of content for a game. He himself is a creator and he uses himself as a mirror of Japanese culture since he is in a Western world. It'd be easy for the same to be the case of an isolated European (I know, there are plenty of Europeans in Japan, but let's keep this hypothetical) in Japan who was a level designer. He'd see himself as a visage of creativity, and being the only European around he'd use himself to build the stereotype of Europeans in his own mind. Meanwhile he'd see Japanese playing games like Ninja Gaiden to the greater extent, Mario and Pikmin to the lesser extent, and see them as having a more destructive tendency than himself and thus his built in stereotype.

Really though, do read the article if you are interested in level design. He's a genius when it comes to making levels for platform games and one who deserves huge acclaim.

DimensionWarped

Japanese are not about destruction? Come on. Look at all the Godzilla movies. Any anime usually has a huge city being blown up. They love to have huge amounts of destruction going on in their entertainment too.

Leathersoup

Oh, but I do have to say I respect his level design talents immensely regardless of other faux pas.

DimensionWarped

Frankly, I can't let this statement go unchallenged. The West brought the gaming world SimCity, Civilization, Railroad Tycoon, every single themepark game, the vast majority of 4x strategy games, and about 99% of creativity based games on the market. Using Pikmin to say otherwise is nothing short of a bad joke, where the only creative aspect involved is building an army by carrying stuff. The rest of the game revolves around murdering the indigenous lifeforms and puzzle solving. Clearly the West is far superior when it comes to games of creative genres.

DimensionWarped

@EmpressInYellow: is that sarcasm? because yeah.. no.

shouryuuken

@BlueGeek: well, a JRPG fits in my mind in the sense that Japanese art is not art imitating life imitating art. For the japanese the escapism is the idea that they'd let themselves imagine in the first place--not that imagination is a given and a resource to bring ideas back into some kind of existing setting. JRPGs are usually inscrutable because japanese art follows an obsequious tradition with no definitive statemnts being appropriate--it is for the audience to get what they want out of it (probably, again, to give them a little latitude in a life which is regimented).

In that sense, I don't think the japanese express the subconscious in a typical fashion. In most societies, restraint is considered important, but it's personal restraint, not communal. For that reason, art (as an expression of the subconscious) is imagination then filtered through restraint. Which is why western art typically has a thesis and the ideal of 'making a statement' pervades--whether an actual piece accomplishes this or not is debatable. Japanese art, on the other hand, being a private enterprise in a society of communal restraint, often, has no restraint--and offers the more extreme visions into the creator's thoughts. Thoughts which, we being humans, are often chaotic and disconnected.

In as much as the allowance for outrageous imagery is enshrined in japanese art, it goes with this guys 'constructive' statement. On the other hand, the society, being the way it is, imitation and methodical reconstruction of existing creations doesn't exist in the same kind of structure as the original art. for their purposes. I mean, the first guy who makes a suit out of belts is being creative. The millionth person is paying an homage like a disciple.

I'm not sure what my point is anymore. but yeah. Stuff.

deathbunny

I agree with is point. I have been waiting for something new to come across rather than you basic shooters. I used to love puzzle games and RPG where the consequences of your choices impact the games outcome. but finding good ones these days is few and far between. anyone remember myst? it was almost more of a detective game in a way. Alundra was pretty fun as well. Your classic good vs. evil. now it seems the evil has taken center stage with games where you need to kill people in worse and worse ways. It's not like the games are bad, but what some people walk away with (from games, movies or even books) may feed their destructive, murderous thoughts. You have to be careful of the seeds that get planted seeing as to how some people seem to be mentally imbalanced by stress from life in general.

Awoken is waiting for R2

Yeah, like the Japanese sonic team isn't all about "destroy"

bhlaab

@shouryuuken: I'm confused. Most of europe is considered part of the western world. Are you being funny or something?

Sunjammer

I think to list is as destruction in the West vs creation in the East is painting it a bit broadly to rationally defend or discuss. From my own personal experiences though it rings quite true, more in the creation side than anything. SO TAKE NOTE, THIS IS AIMLESS RAMBLING!

There are countless destructive Japanese games. Many times (Castlevania, Ninja Gaiden, No More Heroes) the Western audience seems to take to them better. On the other hand, there are games like Monster Hunter - but is that destruction of monsters, or camaraderie and creation of your character and crafted items? There are fighting games, but aren't they more like sport? If you realize that death is temporary anyway, are FPSes like sports? I don't see why not... it's hard to nail down the distinction in provable terminology.

Personally I'm about burned out on the old standard, FPS. I run around generally not caring at all about the paper thin plot, blasting guys and monsters to death until I'm eventually brought down in a hail of bullets often from an unseen location. Then I think about it, and while the death wasn't fun, there was no real feeling of reward for mowing down the goons either. Once you have the basic run&gun skills it's not so different from grinding in an MMO, except then I'd be able to gain EXP and put more points into stats for my character, bringing it closer to the build I had in mind. THAT part is fun, even if combat itself is not inherently so.

When I think about it genres I have the most fun in are
- Rhythm/action (98% Japan, some Korea/China, and now a couple in USA. No creation or destruction, often no narrative. Purely about the experience.)

- Racing (Everywhere, creation may include car customization and collection (Gran Turismo, Ridge Racer, NFS) destruction is usually minor to get an advantage in a race. (Burnout, Wipeout))

- Mentoring (Japan. Rarely a title is localized here but it's essentially a lost genre. Games like Dokodemo Issho, Graduation, Princess Maker, Idolm@ster(?) and other management sims. I guess you could fit Lionhead's Black & White in too. Little if any destruction. Creation in teaching another how to properly do things. Big pride in accomplishment when it works.)

- Puzzle (Mostly Asia, and English/int'l casual market. Destruction varies but isn't typically needed. Creation? Sometimes in crafting the perfect solution, or just a quick reward for getting a puzzle right.)

- Fighter (Japan, a few others. Purely combat, but mostly no meaningful creation/destruction I'd say. More testing your skill against others, and building on your own ability. Matches are single so no mowing down droves and droves of guys, blasting set pieces, etc. (Dynasty Warriors what?))

- RPG (ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'd say as a really rough rule, in the West, you get a dude and a dungeon, and you go pwn the dungeon so you can make your dude stronger so he's better at pwning. In Japan you face a ton of monsters rarely any more varied than in a Western RPG, but they're just speed bumps in the way of uncovering more plot to advance the story. West - mostly freedom, East - mostly narrative. IMO as much destruction in each, but the Western style is about the destruction and the Eastern is about the story. Then, I'm not oblivious to all the Asian dungeon crawlers out there either!)

- Visual novel (only Asia except Phoenix Wright. Creation/destruction? Not really, not enough freedom. But if I mention FPS, I may as well mention Japan's cheap to make go-to genre for newbie devs.)

So what does this tell us? I said it's too sketchy to discuss seriously, these are just things I've noticed in what I play. One thing is for sure though, when you count mainstream, popular games I have available to me, it comes down to predominantly:

PC ("Western," not including South Korean exclusive or ports of Japanese console games):
FPS, MMO (typically localized from S.Korea), RTS (though I never touch them), a few simulators, RPG, online mostly for competition/deathmatch.

Japanese consoles: Rhythm, racing + cart racing, fighting, mentoring, puzzle, JRPG, platform, rarely a sim or MMO, field sports (another I don't touch), oddball (Nintendogs, Chibi-robo, Chu-lip, Katamari Damacy) online largely for cooperation, communication and trading.

Ultimately I guess I ended up more of a console gamer after growing up on PC because (while it started as a wild untamed frontier,) by the mid to late 90s, the vast overwhelming majority of PC games I could find were just "kill or be killed" and I got a lot more variety out of games I would find on consoles, which are mostly made in Japan. Many of my favorite games don't have a narrative, or sometimes, even CHARACTERS at all! But they're often a staple in the West here. I don't know, maybe sometimes I'd rather just lose a game than be "killed" for it time and time again? And do I need to know why my invisible virtual dude is racing a car? I don't know the personal motivations this bikini girl has for cutting 1000s of zombies up...)

fuchikoma

The ability of the West to destroy and create comes with much more individual thought and independent self motivation rather than thinking for "society" and "justice".

gtr06

Interesting!

*smashes coffee cup* RaWR!

topogigio

@shouryuuken: No, I'm not being sarcastic. When people say "Western developers", they mean generally mean "Not Asian" (though with the rise of eastern European/former Soviet bloc developers, that may become a bit broader).

Seriously. What definition of "western" are you working from here? Where are you getting it from?

Actually, you know what? Screw it. Read for yourself. Live. Learn.
[en.wikipedia.org]

EmpressInYellow

@deathbunny: So (at least as far as the cos-players are concerned) in Japan life imitates art where as in the rest of the world art imitates life?

I'm not so savvy in either Japanese culture or art, so forgive my ignorance, but I think we're agreeing?

BlueGeek