It's really sad that there is so little to certain people that they identify themselves by a game they play.

Laho

@Jonbo298:

10+ million people don't seem to think so.

Lethal_Dosage

I completely agree with his statement of "less of playing a game, and more of a lifestyle choice." That's kinda scary. I don't think living in a virtual world is particularly healthy... and MMO's nearly insidious drug like appeal. I don't get it either, how somehow people enjoy, or somehow get stuck into doing a single repeated action, which in some cases is almost like moving a pile of sand, grain by grain...

But yeah, WoW is a dirty word to me.

Ceiling90

I played EQ and EQ2, and while I was playing EQ2 I was really opposed to everything WoW. I defended SOE to the bitter end. Then one day, I decided to give WoW a try. To this day, I still can't believe how I thought that SOE was sooo much better than Blizzard. I think WoW is usually used as a comparison in the MMO market because, not only is it a huge success, but they just did so very many things right. One of those is being able to run on almost any system. Which a lot of people took up.

Reavyn29

@Jonbo298: Agree'd.

Amazon_Chris

Because WoW is an inferior product which nothing should be compared to.

*waits to be flamed even though its my personal opinion*

Jonbo298

Its totally true. In LoTRO, if you even mention WoW or complain the game doesn't have a certain feature WoW might have had, tons of people will descend upon you with the flames of a thousand fanboys. If you're playing an MMO that isn't WoW, then don't talk about WoW.

Kenny

@crazyace: So what's is different? It's grinding, but with very different graphics... okay you can fly in some, but what's soo different? Don't take GW or Aion for example pls.

Schabrak

As a former MMO addict (EverQuest was my failure), I can say with certainty that the rabidness with which people defend their game of choice is next to religious fanaticism.

When Dark Age of Camelot came along, we EverQuest junkies were split into two groups. Those of us that vigorously defended EQ, and those of us that jumped to DAoC in a desperate bid to find a new experience. These two groups become vehement enemies. It split apart friendships, it destroyed families, it caused rips in the space-time continuum.

Well, ok, maybe not that last one, but my point is that this is nothing completely new, and that I'm a little sad to see that it is still happening. In the end, I took a 400 step program and weaned myself from MMOs. My only hope is that most of you out there that find yourself in addiction land can one day do the same. I feel for you.

MrBionic

@crazyace: I mean two features not one.

crazyace

It's an interesting read, especially for us WoW players who are intrigued by WAR. The problem is not that WoW is the perfect MMO, more that WoW has such a solid formula. Plenty of things WoW does could be done better, but not without seeming like you're coping WoW. I'll probably do a ten day trial of WAR when they release it, but what it comes down to is, my friends are on WoW, and unless they move, I ain't either.

Dangeresque: I know Gundam is dirty but I love 00

@Schabrak: Guess you haven't seen many Korean MMORPGs than. They do share one feature which is the grinding and the use of the click to move (so they can smoke). Other than that they are fairly different from each other. The same can be said about western MMORPGS as well.

crazyace

Hey MoH =|= CoD.^^ Well most asian(korean) MMORPGs are mostly "the same". There are some difference between WoW und WAR that could bring a different way of feeling while playing, but they are not significant. PvP is just different, and that's a plus, as well as Public Quests. Much better, than in WoW. (I'm not a troll g)

Schabrak

@Ceiling90: $15 a month for me and my friends to hang out on WoW every night together beats the cost of gas to get us all together and definitely is cheaper than drinks. We also use a few other MMO for this purpose and even Diablo II or Starcraft sometimes.

Most of the time we just sit there doing silly stuff while chatting. It's not always about the game. MMO after the shiny new wears off is about people. That's why some commenters here said they won't go to warhammer if their friends don't.

Ajh

WAR is based on one of the oldest fantasy properties ever made. If anything WoW was influenced by Warhammer.

The mmo though? Totally inspired by WoW and why not?

stoutbear

@Jonbo298: Honestly? WoW could definitely be doing a lot of things better. It does have blizzard's typical attention to detail and quality that we've known since Diablo and Warcraft. However, if they don't fix the pet pathing issue with the expansion... I'm going to start agreeing with you.

Ajh

@IanC:

Playing it is only going to make you appreciate how good WOW is by comparison.

I recommend finishing the download and getting a new perspective on just how much better WOW is than ever other mmo on the market.

sixonedoesitall

I play WoW and Guild Wars. On guild wars you could always tell when WoW was down for tuesday maintenance...people would be on guild wars saying how it's a poor knock off of WoW and sucks. ...I never understood it then I don't understand it now.

I'm waiting on a friend's opinion of Warhammer.

Ajh

They're the same genre, and they're set in the same time period, of course they're similar.

Verum

@Reavyn29: "One of those is being able to run on almost any system. "
YES! Plus its not just a windows world... yet WoW is one of two MMOs that are at elast Windows/Mac. EVE goes one further with Linux support.

@sixonedoesitall: Oh dear.... the open beta starts tomorrow (though the downloader is so slow i haven't got it downloaded yet. Hopefully tomorrow since more people will be downlaoding it will speed up the P2P side of things...). Im now nervous about it!

IanC

@Jonbo298:

Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's not full of shit. WoW is about as good as an MMO can be at this point in time.

Micronumerous

I think of MMOs as a arbitrary subscription plan with a diluted prolonged role playing experance sorta countered by chatting with people stuck on the same boat your on.

spacecoffin2

@Graham: EXACTLY. Its like people comparing any FPS that came out after Half Life. They compared it to Half Life.

Slurm

@MrBionic: Hm... religious wars...
Tell you what: how about we form an Inquisition squad against griefers? It would really be delightful to go camelonian on their asses.

MOP88

I was a EQer and when DAoC came out I was hooked. Ive been playing WoW off and on for a while now, and was hoping that WAR would be my next big game (since AOC ended up letting me down). But I can safely say, after playing the beta....I'll just stick with WoW. I like the idea of not being hooked to an MMO....but theres something about them that keeps people playing and its simple; in a single player game or most multiplayer games, you can accomplish great things and be Billy Badass....but you cant flaunt your accomplishments like you can in an MMO.

Slurm

I don't see what the big deal is. Whats so bad about being compared to something wildly successful? Plus you can't avoid a comparison like this, the two games are going to be similar. It's just the genre.

Graham

@Jonbo298: Hold out, while I get the fire extinguisher.

SensAzn

I am amazed that Mythic thinks Warhammer is ready for a September 18th release.

There is so much wrong with WAR that it is almost unsurprising that the user interface doesn't even allow the player to adjust the mouse or camera sensitivity.

The original EverQuest plays better.

sixonedoesitall

@Verum: Not entirely true.. seeing as Blizzard has taken quite a bit of artistic license from Games Workshop in the making of both Starcraft and WoW, drawing comparisons between the two universes even before WAR was announced, and that is why I think this may be one of the worst MMO wars they is yet to come.

See, Warhammer already has a huge established fan base who will fight tooth and nail for it against other tabletop games, and whom I am sure will do the same for the leap into MMO territory. Being a fan of GW products myself (though I wouldn't call myself rabid so much as learned), I can understand this, but I refuse to participate on the grounds that I see MMOs as dangerous being myself a former WoW addict.

I just can't see the appeal in the repetition of them when I have many other things that I could spend my valuable time on.

beantastic!

@ashman512: "are vehemently opposed". Kotaku really needs an editing feature.

ashman512

I never understand why some people vehemently opposed to some games. It's the same with Halo. Can't you just say "A game like WoW isn't really my cup of tea" instead of "yargh wow is t3h suck." I mean, 9+ million people aren't going to keep subscribing to a game that sucks.

ashman512

personally as someone formally addicted to wow and someone that was in the closed beta for warhammer for a little bit i can say warhammer != warcraft. However there are some similarities that's for sure. But that's like saying there are similarities between white bread and wheat bread. of course there are going to be some similarities, they're both bread, but at the same time its very easy to like one but not the other.

Personally I'm enjoying warhammer better because i dont have to play it a ton to enjoy it like i had to with wow.

I have my CE for warhammer preordered and can't wait to get my headstart >^.^<

demonknightinuyasha

@Ceiling90:

Enjoy doing that one night out of the month, cause you'll burn more than 15 dollars by going out.

Lethal_Dosage

Well after playing the WAR beta... the game plays, has almost the same interface, and even looks like WoW. And that's a bad thing to me, since WoW is an excruciatingly boring game for me.

Kaizuden

The similarities in the title alone are quit big. WOW and WAR. This whole WAR thing is obviously stripped right from WOW.

World of Warcraft =WOW
Warhammer Online = WO or WHO

not cool enough needs to be more badass than WOW. WAR.

Sorry. I'm not explaining myself well but. My point is that it's lame.

mordennight

@Ajh: I'd rather spend the $15 a month, go hang with my friends, and drink some beer, or go watch a movie, or actually interact with my friends on a face to face basis. It is cheaper, but I also believe it cheapens the whole point of social interaction.

Ceiling90

There are plenty of veteran MMORPG players who are not like that. The thing is you don't hear us whining, attacking others and defending the game on the forums. I don't see the point in argueing with people who claim that WAR is a copy of WoW, because most of the time they lack knowledge and experience of any MMORPG that came before WoW, like DAoC and EQ, which WoW copied a lot from.
It's like real life, a minority of bad apples who shout give the majority that stays calm a bad rep.

"It's really sad that there is so little to certain people that they identify themselves by a game they play."
take a look at society, 99% of the populace identify themselves with materialism

Bluetribal

Hell I can tell you why. All the newbs playing WoW think its the first MMO they don't realize that there is a long history to MMOs before WOW. So when they see anything else its always after the first MMO that ever existed in their minds WoW.

Anyone that knows Blizzard knows that none of their properties are particularly unique. Their greatest strength is merging preexisting concepts and perfecting them. That is it.

LaylaMisun

You think the WAR people are down on WoW? Most of the WAR people ARE WoW people that have been disgruntled by something Blizzard did to WoW at some point during the last four years.

You want people that hate WoW, go talk to EQ2 players. They hate WoW in that adorable, middle school, bigoted way in which one group of people is blamed for being solely responsible for all the ills in the world.

thenino85

@beantastic!: here here I want to see Starcraft universe vs Warhammer 40k because lets face it you can't put an undead rogue against a lazer gun weilding space marine
BUT you can put commander rider from SC against a lazer gun toting space marine

holybarbie

@Lethal_Dosage: its 13 million now hehe I can bet there will be 20 million soon and tbh I played the WAR beta and I am a WOW player because I heard the hubub so I played for a while and I was like meh It's ok but its not setting a new standard
The thing about WOW is that it set a very high bar in MMOs because there was a dry phase of MMOs, dark age was kind of dying EQ2 had slumped and WOW came and was like hahahahahahaha but the nugget is that it is produced by a class devloper who are dedicated to their fanbase and also very serious about production and will not release until it is pretty much perfect and no offense you cannot say blizzard's record is dirty
I just find it very ironic when WOW was released blizz were synical about how recieved it will be when Sony were like theres no script people talk blah blah blah and Blizz absolutely dominated Sony

Hey and its something on sony's list of what they can do

Can do;
Produce TVs

Can't
release another PS2 but instead release something similar to a waffle iron
produce the most successful online MMO
get exclusive final fantasy 13
make profit without having to produce TVs
Perform a press conference without slagging off Microsoft

holybarbie

Sometimes people just need a change - I've played WoW since 2005 and at this point, I am simply bored of the game. The mechanics, the PvP, the inevitable gear resets every expansion and welfare epics for scrubs (badge gear, arena gear, etc.)

I want something different, which is why I'm going to play WAR. If I don't like it, then I won't play it. There doesn't need to be a lifelong debate about which is better, in the end it's whatever the person who's paying the $15 a month enjoys.

Arelan

@Lethal_Dosage: And you know what, I really do enjoy the few times I actually have real quality time to spend with my friends. I'm exactly not bashing MMO's, though I'm vehemently opposed to playing them (personal reasons); but I am of the mind that it shouldn't be a substitute for actually hanging with friends, or full out face to face social interaction.

Ceiling90

@Schabrak: eh, whats the difference between any games, all you do is press something and something happens. all the same

ITS ALL PERSPECTIVE, REALLY

pandafresh

:excuse the long text:

Im going to be brutally honest here.
I was a hardcore WoW player, Back when PVP was an excruciating painful challenge to reach the Grand Marshall. My "friend" and I were addicted to WoW at this time like we never had been to any game before.
We played for upwards and over 12 hours a day and sleep become 2nd place to WoW.
We never reached our goal because Blizzard changed the rules 80% of the way through our conquest. We were distraught but resolute, and we soldiered on into BC unscathed. I quit WoW after becoming level 70 with a few toons and raiding for a while.

In REAL life, i was barely working, often waking up in the morning in my boxers to play Warcraft then going to bed in the evening wearing the same, and getting up the next day and going over again. My real friends, who like, could comfort me went i went through a hard time (even though i wasnt doing anything outside of wow that could give me a hard time) had left me. I didnt care though, i had my wow friends, i had even flown to the US to visit !
I had still been sexually active, but never anything meaningful, but Manhunt is easy enough to use to find a root.

I realised, That i wanted to LIVE life, i didnt want to sit on my computer.

I was the FIRST person to defend WoW as a lifestyle choice. I was the president, secretary and teasurer of the "But i have friends! and they ARE real friends !" commitee.

Holding down the button on ventrillo, laughing hysterically, because your buddy in England just told a joke whilst in a group is great fun im sure, But why couldnt you be out, at a bar, laughing with friends ?

Real friends you can hear in person, and do things with, and even touch with a hand shake or a pat on the back.

Im just trying to give some perspective. WoW or WAR or any other MMO needs to be taken in moderation. Moderation does not mean 6 out of 7 nights a week for 6 hours which some people may have "cut back to".

Life shouldnt take 2nd place to a computer game. There is a difference.

Yacjuman

@holybarbie: Sony makes some damned good TVs. And soso good laptops actually.

Blizzard started off paying attention to their fanbase but a lot of players are unhappy with the focus on arenas and pvp. WoW pre burning crusade was almost all about pve. I know a LOT of WoW players looking to see if Warhammer's done it right.

Ajh

I'd be unable to switch from WoW to a different MMO simply because I have too many friends in WoW now. My biggest iff with games like AoC and WAR have been when friends of mine have left the guild to pick up on either of those instead. Or when some real-life friend of mine starts playing them rather than joining me in WoW.
Basically, on the social level, it can stir up a few issues here and there sometimes. But I'm never more opposed to an MMO in itself more than any other game out there. They're just games.

Kyuu

war suck so dose wow lol

anttwan

@pandafresh: Being reductionist about reductionism is like intolerance, in that being intolerant of intolerance is not, itself, intolerant. Or at least, if you make the point that it is, you're being a goober.

The games are similar, and it's really a matter of your perspective. If WAR, to you, is like the most massive content update for WoW you could imagine, where everything is new and different, and you want to launch on the 6 month journey to go through it, then yay--it sounds great. If you thought WoW was bad enough in the first place, and all the irrelevant widgets between point A and point B of finally getting together enough gear to PvP at high level, raid with your friends, and goof off, then WAR might be better in the sense that it tries not to burden you with that as much, but worse in the sense that you put the effort in one place, and now you've made that effort meaningless by starting over somewhere else.

There are people from my old DAOC guild still playing DAOC. I have a friend who only stopped playing UO a year ago. If you were satisfied with that state of affairs, why would you want to hit the reset button?

That's why these comparisons are made. The only reason to move on is for something new--either content or gameplay, and by the numbers, content isn't king with an MMO. People act like that's what they love, they pay lip service to story and environments, but at the end of the day, most people end up grinding--because that is the most effective behavioral hook that MMOs offer. All human beings are vulnerable to gambling addiction, and MMOs make as many random rewards as they can a part of the experience. I don't just mean loot, but crits. Melee crits, spell crits, healing crits. Random amounts of health healed from potions. Dodges, parries, misses. Procs. Rare mobs. Rare drops. Rare drops that go into recipes which have a chance to allow a skill-up or a rep-up. Rare drops that *are* recipes. Random pvp. Random monster respawn. Harvesting nodes.

WAR cuts back on the randomness, but doesn't substitute with the kind of gameplay you see in a skill based game. It doesn't matter if its' a shooter abeat em up a fighter a sim a hybrid or a strategy puzzle game. It's the RPG non-game model, and youc an't dress that up into something which is *as* interesting as one armed banditry.

deathbunny

I had something to say, however I got to annoyed while writing it to post it.

'Goto the bar' indeed.

No offence, but gtfo and go then. I'll stay here and play my videogames and have sober fun, kthx.

Whyspir

@anttwan: Care to elucidate on why, specifically, they "suck, lol"?

tk.

I wish there was a single-player (or just co-op) version of a game like WoW, it's a pretty detailed and interesting game. Maybe Diablo 3 will fill the niche, but what other games have been filling the in-depth hack-slashing min-maxing RPG games slot other than the Baldur's Gate PS2 games?

tk.

@Whyspir: Read as: Boo Hoo someone said something mean about WOW. Im going to Drink some Ale in Goldshire, then RP with what is probably a 13 year old boy, to dull my sense of feeling.

Yacjuman

@Whyspir: Read as: I'm not yet old enough to drink yet

Chronixal

@Laho: Is it also so sad that people identify themselves with a style of music or a particular sports team? It's all the same, I don't think it any more sad as videogame.

prelude97

@Schabrak: Yeah, i can realise i was bad back then, i needed my life to be adjusted. as i was winding down with wow i wasnt playing much at all, just to chat to friends, who im still in contact with even now. Was just trying to get people to understand there is more, because i know TOO many people that are still playing how i played then.

Yacjuman

@deathbunny: That doesn't apply to everyone though bunny. Things like crits and lots of random factors usually stop me playing games. I left WoW in a mix of boredom and annoyance at the increasing number or random crud in there (crits, passive % proc abilities, etc).

For me it's about exploring worlds you can't in real life (dragons, monsters, spaceships, etc) with lots and lots of other people. If there's some skill involved then hey! that's cool too.

When it turns into an 'achievement spree' where it's about showing off with big numbers or 'phat lewt' I quickly get turned off.

I don't think any of us read something like Lord of the Rings going "I can't wait to see how high Gandalf crits for in the next chapter". I'm not saying that MMOs are something you play for the 'developer story' either though... it's more about the world weaved by having so many players together. At least for me :3

Geminosity

"Telling a WAR player that his game is similar to WoW is like telling a goth that he's emo. No-one wants to be told they're not unique and interesting, to be dismissed as a stereotype they're not."

While there may be some players who protest in that vein, I suspect for most people that is pretty far off the mark.

The outrage would be because Warcraft is a ripoff of Warhammer in the first place. It is Warcraft that is similar to Warhammer, and there's a lot more to that than semantics. Regardless of how much longer WoW has been around than Warhammer online.

Of course, they're ALL just ripoffs of Lord of the Rings, and that was basically a ripoff of numerous mythologies down the ages. We're talking the fantasy genre here. There's a reason it generally gets laughed at as a creative enterprise. It's one big plagiarisation. Same for scifi. The fringes may explore what new territory they can squeeze out but mainstream thrives on copycat trash.

Cultivar

Not interested in either game, I did my time with ffxi and left the mmo world for good. But when I was playing ffxi and WoW came out, there was that very bitter hatred of all things WoW related from many of the players in that game as well. It just wasn't my style so I didn't play WoW and got on with my life.

DrunkRaba

@mordennight: Yeah right, the whole war thing is stripped from Warcraft... you must to be the only person in the whole world(with a little bit of knowledge about both franchieses., who doesn't know that warcraft "was" a warhammer game before the Warhammer bosses stopped their cooperation.

@pandafresh: But in 70% or more of "that" games, it "is" the same. You grind a lot to level and the rest of presentation is ugly. You klick through some questtext and go to kill X monsters. I admit that this kind of quest is used often(very often) in western MMOs too, but WoW has other types too. And that is the difference. They include PvP, escorts or some riddles. And... most of them have a good/better story/plot.

@Yacjuman: You have learned from your mistakes, but it somehow seems like you try to measure everything by the same yardstick for every player. Yes there are those hardcore addicted, but everyone had/has a choice. It was clear, that in order to be in the top, you would always has to spend your "life" on it. It's like this in just every massive/ly played game. Spend time to gain[+ have talent/skill^^]. There are always some end of the work day/finishing time guilds your could have joined.

On the other side: You can also play all day long, because the game is just fun. And I was one of that kind. I wanted to achieve something and it took some time, but I did only play it as long as it was fun, while meeting with real friends, having fun with them. I too did grind and raid for many hours a day when it became too "hardcore" for some time, but stopped, as it got worse.[Our raid leader did too.^^] Never understood why people did torture themself so much to gain some "better equipment".-_- Must have been, cause they just did never had anything other to have fun.

MMO friends can be friends too. You just can't drink a beer with them in a bar on the we. :P Don't ever take a game to cerial XD, have fun with your school/work friends.

All in all, it was your own fault, deciding to become grand mashall. You could have stopped, as blizzard did anounce their patch to end the ranking of players in that way, weeks/months before they actually did release it.

Schabrak

Haven't been closely following the war v. wow rabble, but if the biggest stone one can throw at WAR is it has similarities to WoW than that's not a very big stone. Usually MMOs at the start are an absolute pile of garbage.

Also, generalities can be thrown around to illustrate whatever you want. Just follow politics or console war 'discussions' if you can tolerate it. That will prove that point.

I think one of the draws to WoW is it's art style which doesn't take itself too seriously. That's inviting to regular gaming folk, I think. That gets them in the door.

Ah well, I'm going to stop writing and start some drinkin'. Good luck to you WAR, I'll be keeping an eye on 'ya

PipTheLip

Well I played Conan for during the first few days and ALL you could see on the chat is 'conan to Wow this' and 'conan vs wow that' which really, really sucked.

World of Warcraft has become the mother of all MMOs from whence all theretoforth MMOs shalth be judgeth

boredom.

interstate78

@Yacjuman:

lol... I enjoyed reading that.

sixonedoesitall

@Yacjuman: Definitely true.

I'm actually on break from a tabletop D&D game right now...but I can say with certainty why I'm not out at a bar with my friends. I can't drink. And I hate large groups of people and my friends all live 40 minutes away..but we don't spend 12 hours a day playin WoW we work and have many other hobbies.

Ajh

What it amounts to is these games are games but they are also instant message chat programs. If Yahoo Messenger came out with extra awesome features you probably still wouldn't get people to switch over from aol instant messenger because all their friends are there. So WoW is decent but no one is willing to try something that is new and could potentially be better because they are set with their friends.

I do think it becomes a problem for the gaming industry if only because it doesn't allow for better games to find an audience because people aren't willing to give up friends. I mean in my opinion Lord of the Rings Online is a better game in just about every way from WoW but it's hard for me to get into it because it doesn't have the WoW community that I have befriended. Warhammer Online is destined for the same fate.

Parker113

@Yacjuman: And thats why I majorly dislike Warcraft, its not nickednamed World of Warcrack for nothing, it sucks countless people in, and thats all that they want to do, nothing else matters to them.

Eh, maybe all MMORPGs are like that, but it seems that WoW is the most like that.

Ashkihyena

What is funny is watching what happens when you post a "WoW / WAR will kill WAR / WoW" thread on one of their forums.

It's amazing how defensive people can get over their preferred game. It is not a simple matter of which one is better, rather that anyone that is interested in the other deserves to be insulted, ridiculed or attacked by the mob of fans that blindly ignore points made by both sides.

The only way to win is by not playing either of them.

I was actually banned with extreme prejudice in one of the WAR forums for making a joke that Warhammer conventions resemble "The National Carny Expo for pre-pubescent 12 year old Juggalos with long beards".

Well, I thought it was funny.

Patient

@Dangeresque: I know Gundam is dirty but I love 00: Personally I don't see the problem with copying WoW. Hardly any of the ideas in WoW are stuff they came up with anyways. Blizzard did a great job of taking all the best stuff from the industry and putting it into their game. But if anyone remembers the troubled WoW launch, they took some time to reach their lofty status lol.

nitromic

So....

goth =/= emo?

Sovnade

@Patient: That is isn't surprising you got banned for that really. The fanboys of either one of those games are amazingly rabid.

I find WoW fanboys can be as vicious as a pack of angry wolverines. Especially if you point out any of the game's fault. Actually I feel Blizzard fanboys in general to be crazy. I almost got kicked out of some guy's house for saying I don't like Starcraft. Granted one guy living there was Korean, but the white dude was a freak about that game. People need to chill out and realize it is just a damn game.

nitromic

@nitromic: Exactly. It's really just a game, and if you have fun playing either one, good for you.

ashman512

I like to think of WAR as the MMO thats for people who found WoW too hard. Seriously, look at the way quests are handled in WAR. "Go kill 10 Foozles", then there is this big red circle on your map that tells you EXCATLY where to go.

Thrillkiller

@Kenny:

Rule n°1 : Don't talk about WoW
Rule n°2 : Don't talk about WoW?

eggnog007

@holybarbie: Or a Warcraft orc warlord like Thrall vs. a Warhammer Orc warlord like Grimgor Ironhide.

Just sayin'.

beantastic!

It's kind of the same thing as the console wars, isn't it? And people arguing about Chevy vs. Ford?

It's tribe identity. If you say something good about WAR, you're attacking the WoW tribe, and they respond. Some people can only construct their self-conception by belonging to something, and can only find their purpose by serving the group.

Psychologists recognize these people as personality types that score high as "Right-wing authoritarians" but low on Social Dominance orientation.

crashfrog

i'm a go take me a blue pill. I've almost got enough gold to start the swift mount chain.

StratfordX

@Popcornicus: Yeah but in a way those same lame ass fetch and kill quests ruin the games for me. You are forced to do these monotonous quests just so you can get to the meaty pvp portion of the game. I wish MMO designer would try and implement better questing, so that it doesn't feel like you are doing the same dame thing in every game. One of the reasons I have given up mmos for the time being was because of this. Sure PVP is great, but man I can't stand the endless grind anymore.

nitromic

@Thrillkiller: The PvE quests are easy so that you can spend more time killing other players. Which is, you know, actually fun.

Popcornicus

@Thrillkiller: Some people aren't EXCATLY as good at playing games as they are at spelling.

V1L3

If people thought WoW forums were heavily moderated, wait til they experience Warhammer forums. My one and only post there was a request for people to be more patient in the forums (including forum mods).

What'd I get for my trouble? The moderator I mentioned by name told me my user name was in violation of the terms and conditions and changed it, rendering me utterly unable to log in. They will not respond to my requests to fix it.

Do they have the right to do that? Sure. However, if they respond this strongly (and passive aggressively) to a simple, polite request, I can't imagine what's gonna happen when the actual trolls move into the forums.

Ban Stick 2008

MikeKelley

Seriously.......?

Theibault

@MikeKelley: There are not going to be any official Warhammer forums. For bad or for good. The beta forums were/are indeed HEAVILY moderated.

Turael

@thenino85:
This.

Also, ITT people run around telling their pity-tales of "addiction" spawned from nothing more than a lack of self-control.

Golbleen

@crazyace: Congratulations. You know two different things about Korean MMOs. The same two things that EVERYBODY knows about Korean MMOs.

Kaneda

The only type of game i`ve never had any interest in.Guess i`m lucky from what i`ve read about them being so addictive.
I`m sure a mmorpg could be made that would possibly interest me but it hasn`t been made yet and everyone seems to be trying to make their own wow clone anyway. Just the thought of that game bores me shitless.

UFO

I think WOW will always still be more polished and nice, personal WOW will still be King, for raiding etc, WAR imo will tempt the PVP crowd.

Like it or not, WOW like all blizzard games are polished to the tits. I thin WAR will suffer abit in the Polish department, but will still be a fun game, I am playing both.

Omniel

@Laho: How so? Nobody thinks anything of it when people identify themselves by music, or a clothing line, or anything else. No single thing should be someone's WHOLE identity, but it doesn't matter if that single thing is your wife or WoW.

Mister Adequate

Who cares, if its fun play it, if its not, don't, why do people bother with silly argurements, that can only be opinion.?

yes they were probaly inspiraed by wow, just as WOW was inspired from pprevious MMOs, this is normal, cause you have to keep what works, and get rid of what doesnt, so its normal too look at other games to see what they did right, and wrong, WOW did this, and WAR did this, every game does this. its natural. But WAR isn't stupid, they did what worked in WOW, and went in a different direction, by making the PVP differant. I dont think WAR is trying to take all of WOWs customers, just some, the PVP crowd, its smart, WAR will do well, and WOW will still do really well.

Omniel

Bah. Wake me up when there is a Pong MMO.

I totally would roll that second line in the middle.

dry-roasted-peanuts

Blizzard fanboys vs Games Workshop fanboys is a deadly combination. You'd see more neutrality with mangooses and cobras, for super serious. The fact that people cry "WoW clone" often enough as it is, just adds fodder to this bloody rivalry. I think it's understandable.

Garro

RPS, Role Playing Shooter, I assume, that's a new one to me. I like it, I like it, I like it.

Now, I know nearly nothing about "WAR", but If somebody sees it like it is, why be afraid of the truth?

If it is similar to WoW, then who is wrong here? The fans, who don't want to see this or the editors?

Maybe the solution is to make an MMO that is so different as to avoid comparison to WoW.

artofwar420

@dry-roasted-peanuts: I heard they're going to nerf Left Paddles, what BS.

BryanH

@Chronixal:

Nice assumption, but no. I've been able to goto bars for the past 6 years I just choose not to. I didn't like the idea when I was 18, I don't like the idea now that I'm 24...and I probably still won't like the idea when I'm 30.

Though, I suppose the awkward part is that I sell liquor to people.

@Yacjuman:

And your post was all just 'whinewhinewhine but I'm better now' I wasn't even refrencing your post, I was talking about the guy who mentioned it ealier, you just seemed to have used the exact same stupidity.

And yeah. RP servers are fail, is that where you played? Hooked on RP and just couldn't get out? The only way you'd use that kind of insult on someone is if you did it yourself.

I mean, congrats on getting rid of your hook to the game but you don't need to continue to be a tool to those that you think actually play it.

Whyspir

This thread, as related to the article: case-and-fucking-point. Well played, Maggie.

[ZTF]

@nitromic: I would kick you out of my house, if you're supposedly a gamer and don't like Starcraft, too.

mizeriq

After playing both I have to say that yes they are quite similar. But, they aren't similar enough that you would be getting the same experience through each. In my opinion WoW, because it has been out for so long, has a much higher technical advantage not only because of low system specs, just the game responds better. I said the same thing about LOTRO, but the game simply doesn't react quick enough to your actions. Buttons misclick, actions don't go off, timers don't show up, cooldowns get messed up or just plain skipped. I would even go to say that WAR has a worse response than LOTRO did both in their respective semi-open and open beta (newsletter invites and the like). WoW simply runs better, reacts better, and plays very much the same. Which is why I am skipping WAR and quitting WoW. I played WoW for too long, and simply put WAR isn't ready to take WoW's place nor surpass it for that matter.

I am usually an objective observer. I played WoW and EQ2's open beta, and chose WoW even though I played EQ1 for a good 4 years. I'm passing on WAR and might be taking a vacation from the MMO market until there really is something new and innovative about a new MMO. WoW was a giant leap forward from past MMO's and WAR isn't enough of a step forward to make it unique or worthy (IMO) of playing. You do take a chance when switching MMOs, you lose in-game friends, you might become detached to RL friends who play the same game, and you need to invest a lot of time in order to fully enjoy the game. So you don't want to spend 80 bucks (free month + 2) to find out that you won't be playing the game which is why I think people get defensive and downright vicious when concerning MMOs. Plus add to the fact that in order for an MMO to be successful other people need to play it adds to that defensive nature in order to convince new players to join, or old players to keep on playing.

Chewbenator

Saying WAR is like WoW is nothing but a compliment if you ask me. If you say that a car drives like a Ferrari, does that make the car less attractive?

More on WoW vs WAR

Max Freak

@nitromic: The only trouble was because their estimates for the number of subscribers by the end of the year were exceeded on launch day. There weren't any major problems with the game(it didn't have as much content as now, but that's not exactly a problem), just the server capacities.

mizeriq

Some good points there. I think the comparison is more like Mac versus Windows. Neither is a bad system and they have quite a few things in common, but using a Mac is also a statement for many people. They want to be edgy and unique, not using something mainstream. Wether or not it's better isn't that important.

Nirual

@mizeriq: There were some serious issues, like a plague of desync problems that weren't caused by server populations. Things like the infamous loot lag bug that took years to fix or skills like the Warrior's Charge desync'ing you from the server so you couldn't interact with anything. There were some other odd bugs that cropped up, too. There was a falling damage bug that would randomly cause you to take hefty amounts of damage from running across flat ground.

The biggest problem was class balance issues. Warlocks and non-healing Druids were absolutely worthless, Warriors were only good as tanks, and Paladins, Rogues, and Mages were unstoppable.

Ero_Elohim

Look, you can cry all you want.

You can continue to hate WoW because everyone else loves it.

You can continue to bark insults at anyone who plays WoW.

You can continue to think you are superior because you don't play the same game everyone else does.

You can even continue your nerd rage sessions in whatever crappy MMO you play right now, you know the ones where you and the 5 other people on the server all complain about how WoW sucks and ruined your lives? Yeah, that's the one!

But guess what?! It doesn't matter!! WoW will continue to be the most popular MMO. WoW will still be considered the staple of the MMORPG genre. People will still use WoW as a frame of reference when judging other MMOs. And finally, WoW will continue to be a source of inspiration and influence for game designers, especially those working on future MMO titles.

You can talk all the trash you want but it will never change these simple facts. Nothing you say or do will EVER change this. I am not even sure why you people consider having your favorite game compared to WoW a bad thing.

I need to add one last bit to my favorite group of WoW haters. This is the jaded ex-WoW players group. The group of people who claim they were all uber WoW players who did high end raiding and PVP but gave it up because of some insignificant game change that totally ruined their lives. Yeah, these people are the worst. They are the gaming equivalent of a confused teenager contemplating a sex change operation.

Thank you, that is all.

For the Horde!

Killalaz

@Killalaz: Do you happen to live in Kalimdor by any chance? Cause you sound awfully patriotic! @:-P

The_nub_next_door

@holybarbie:

Wake up, Burning Crusade has a total of less then 5 million sold units.

Out of those 4.9 million, a fraction (probably about 15-20%) are inactive accounts of people who quit and banned goldfarmer accounts.

WoW has mayby 3-3½ subscribing, Western customers. The rest of the active accounts are Korean Pay-2-Play accounts, who generally have a lot less activity and generate much less revenue for Blizzard.

Just swallowing the "10 million myth" is like watching a car commercial which concludes in "this car is awesome", and you say to yourself "well, he said it was awesome, thats the car I should buy".

Don't be gullible.

The_Phiphler

@Ceiling90: @Ajh:

Or like any normal human being, you do both. Who decided you should choose an MMO over going out and vice versa?

Lemming

@Reavyn29: in fact it's not that it's a winning formula, it's becasue they took what was win, and put it back in one big pile of data, stamped their name on it, an that's it, you created wow. Wow is good, yes, I am a wow player myself, but wow is also the biggest fake of all time, as they take principles from all games before it or almost. Fact is, you can't copy right a principle, but you can pinpoint it and tell blizzard they're bad developpers.
Oh, and long live the 10-man raids, it's much cooler to run wth only firends than with say 13 friends 12 pugs :D.

Example: haircuts available in game in the next patch.
I personnally saw it in Ragnarok online first, welcome to what?4-5 years ago? :P

Phibius

I find it annoying how WoW has basically influenced most of the MMOs on the market, or those waiting to be released. Warhammer online is going to be a continuation of this trend, where the history of Warhammer far outweighs that of WoW. Blizzard weren't allowed/couldn't buy the rights to use Games Workshop IP, so what does Games Workshop do when they release an MMO - follow the trend of other MMOs on the market. It seems like they've missed their point with such a rich old school pencil `n paper game. RPGs aren't supposed to be cartoony, grinds of game. Warhammer Fantasy Role Play is where it should be, with career progression/specialisation. No wonder WoW has the market cornered, no development company wants to take a serious risk. Fallout 2 as an RPG would be far more interesting.

The subscription model puts me off, which is why I stick with Guild Wars, even so, its become a grind and I haven't been playing regularly for a while. It seems there is a lack of depth with MMOs, that have me wanting to play real life much more. Socialising, music, 3D are much more rewarding since they have a real progression and MMOs currently don't satisfy the same level of intricacy/variation.

d_unique

killalaz, the prime example

Bluetribal

I can't take one single thing the guys at Rock Paper Shotgun say seriously about WAR because they are actually discussing the game without playing any RvR.
How pointless is that?

BigWyrm

@The_Phiphler:

Hypothetically say there are 9,999,999 subscribers right now. Someone, somewhere has an account they pay and play every other month. Every other month, Blizzard has 10 million world wide. No game is going to hold a number like this every month until the end of time. A lot of players stop playing as much, or completely when they "beat the game" i.e clear the top instance. And will more than likely resume their play come the release of the next content patch, or expansion.
The 10 million is an average, not ever exact. What you also maybe forgetting the players who multibox. Running 2, 3, 4, 5 or more accounts at once. Which is perfectly fine to Blizz. Each of these is considered a player. And done rightfully so. Blizz is getting their ~$15 usd a month for each account. So yea, I can see 10 million "players" on average through out the year.

Has nothing to do with being gullible.

As for the BC units. I think your numbers are a bit off. I highly doubt WoW has (when averaging 10 mil) 1/2 of its players in Outlands, the rest stuck on Azeroth. Are your numbers also counting the number of downloaded accounts from WoW's website? If not, I would be able to accept your numbers. If so, you seem way off.

moe84

wait till a Pokemon MMO comes out!
then we'll see how it compares to WoW
i dont see pokemon centers in WoW

Kuririn

Good read.

WoW is tested, and proven to be great game. Good to some, awesome to others, complete shit to some. However, WoW has been out for a while as we all know. People know the game, its been tested, and is loved.

WAR on the other hand, is a wet-dream that is still in Beta. And is already being compared to WoW in close similarities. As well as being called no where near a game as WoW. From what I have seen, WAR is not all that great. At best, a "meh" comparison to WoW. But the game has yet to be released. When it is, the true test will begin. You CAN'T have an accurate statement on the games future success until it's release. How smooth the launch will or will not be, is going to be a HUGE factor on its success. As well as the first 6 months to a year.

Yea sure WAR, and WoW both receive a lot of hype. But for WoW, it is 4 or so years of a success and very happy customers/players. For WAR it is bitter players who feel the need to talk shit for w/e reason. This is ok. But I assure you no matter how successful WAR maybe at launch, will not really affect its ability to compete with WoW. The game will need to be out for 6 months.. a year... 2 Then start comparing WAR's stats to that of WoW

I myself, will be waiting at least 6 months or so before I pick up a copy of WAR. Bugs and the mass flood of idiots, whom I would have to compete with to get the most simple quests done. No thanks. Not to mention, the fear of constant server crashes, and realms being inoperable due to load.

moe84

@Jonbo298: To say WoW is an inferior game is to say that other MMOs are superior... any examples?

Pombar

I can't log in to the Warhammer beta. I can't get it to take the username and password I set up. Their support was no help either. They didn't even respond.

Adam In Texas

@The_Phiphler:
"I am talking about the total amount of TBC boxes sold,.." Again, take the number of sales Blizzard had from their website. Where you purchase the cd key online, and download/install from there. Even if Blizzard did sell 4.9 million "boxes" in stores world wide. If they even sold 1 million "cd keys" you are still, way off.

I am not debating the number of WoW players. This number does not affect me at all. What I am debating, is your information, and numbers. You're saying BC boxes sold. I am saying boxes + online purchases of cd keys. No retail involved.

Besides, even if they are counting the number of accounts that are not being played right now. There is still 10 million people they have received revenue from. Making their statement accurate. Most of these people can play again if they wish. Possibly bringing their numbers back up to 10 million(doubtful, but possible). So again, this is an average. Not an exact amount.

So, back to the topic at hand. Will WAR match Blizzards numbers, either present or past highs? I doubt it personally. As far as gameplay, which game is better. You really can't say and be taken serious, until the game is released. Numbers can't be compared until WAR hits shelves, and starts selling. So for right now...

WOW ~10 million
WAR ~0

6 months after WAR is released, compare it to WoW 6 months
then 1 year.. 2 years. IF WAR survives that long. I am sure it will, but once it dies out, if it hasn't been able to reach WoW's numbers. The game is officially not on par with WoW. Arguably, but fact.

~end opinion spew.

wtb new topic

moe84

@moe84:

You are completly wrong.

Read the press realeases again. Nowhere do they say "Active accounts", they simply say accounts.

I am talking about the total amount of TBC boxes sold, and the only way this "low" number can be explained, is that 5 million people never bought TBC in the first place, and aren't playing anymore.

Blizzard has everything to win by angling the information like this, and basically nothing to lose.

The_Phiphler

Even if WhO was the most brilliant design ever, with absolutely perfect live support, ultra-responsive patches, oodles of great content out every month like clockwork - it would still be an EA product, hence doomed to failure.

Let's hope the folks at Mythic have enjoyed their time there. We all know what happens to EA acquisitions within 5 years of their assimilation.

MarionBarryHussein

I played PSO, PSU, Guild Wars, WoW, and tried various of the free crap MMOs out there. I like Final Fantasy 11 more than all of them. MMOs should be less like WoW and more like FFXI.

YuniYoshi

Ultima Online FTW.

I can't stand any game that uses classes and levels and endless slaughter and pillage to rack up 'experience' points.

UO uses percentile skills which improve by use (not by 'winning' stuff) and it has a community that really cares. Well, on the European servers anyway.

It was the best game ever before the banality of evil that is EA began 'tweaking' its ruleset.

Keshie

@moe84: by using your same logic Titanic has made $1,842,879.975.00 world wide so any movie that doesn't make that much money is not on par with Titanic.

Wow you are a genius sir

taftsearlobe33

@Keshie: this is the type of fanaticism they are talking about

taftsearlobe33

@holybarbie: here here I want to see Starcraft universe vs Warhammer 40k because lets face it you can't put an undead rogue against a lazer gun weilding space marine

And that's why there will be Tauren Marines in Starcraft II!

@MikeKelly: However, if they respond this strongly (and passive aggressively) to a simple, polite request, I can't imagine what's gonna happen when the actual trolls move into the forums.

Or rather, they've seen the trollfest that is the WoW forums and are deciding that jackboots is preferable to an open society?

twobeef

I love all these people saying WOW is a crappy product...yeah...errr...10 million people playing and it's crappy...ROFLOL. Just because you're an idiot doesn't make us all idiots either. I'm in the WAR beta, and I'll check it out, but ultimately, WOTLK is were my MMO time will be spent later this year.

hiruu

@taftsearlobe33: What are you saying? That I'm being fanatical about Ultima Online?
Well I'm not really but I still strongly dislike race-class-level based games that promote slaughter and pillage as a model of social advancement through economics.
As for what I said about EA ruining UO.... ask any former pre-Age Of Shadows player. EA through it's subordinate company OSI turned the world of Britannia into a fucking Diablo clone.

Keshie

The big thing all MMOs have in common to me: I don't play any.

Kortir

I usually see this happening all the time. Not only in games, but in other popular culture as well. When a new things starts that is good enough to draw attention, many people become fans of it. Then if it goes onto a stage of getting extremely popular, at one stage many people start finding it cool to dislike the thing.

Say no to compulsory non-conformism

SansSanity

@Ceiling90: To some degree, this is why War fans get so up-in-arms about the game. It really does do away with the horrible monotony of WoW by just tweaking some of the standard MMO concepts...

PearceShea

Could it also be that (possibly) many of the Warhammer playres have played Warhammer for years in PnP and tabletop form and feel very touchy about Blizzard coming along in the mid 90's, stealing Warhammer's setting, Disney-fying it and then passing it off as their own?

worsethannormal

I have played the closed beta and to me it was like they took wow and changed all the character models then changed some of the interface elements for the sake of being different. The graphics are much worse than wow (in its current state). The quests were very poorly thought out and hard to follow/find. And it was really laggy, like two second delay from key-press to movement and its not my connection i assure you. Sure its a beta you have to expect they will iron all this out before release, but from what i saw its nothing new and definately nothing exciting.

Crankyhobo

@[ZTF]: You, [ZTF], get the dots this round. :)

It is definitely a good piece of writing by Meer, and it raises some questions for me. So people identify themselves by associating with a particular game (as opposed to brand, music, etc., as others have already pointed out)... what does that say about those people? Do they just need to go through some more introspection and figure out what their identity is separate from the game? I don't have any answers nor opinions for that question.

Moreover, I am kind of curious as what Meer hopes to accomplish with the article. Is he of the mind that people should just be more mature about their commenting in light of Rock, Paper, Shotgun's commentary on a given game? Will "more maturity" really solve the problem? Again, no answers or opinions from myself.

Sensai-N

@Crankyhobo: rofl you think the quests where hard to find??? Either you didn't play the beta or you are biggest noob in the world.

When you get a quest it puts a RED CIRCLE around the area you are supposed to go. How much easier do you want it to be???

I will never understand the need of some peoples to make up lies to bash games they have never played.

taftsearlobe33

@hiruu:
A lot of people bought Britney Spears' albums. Does that mean she's a better musical artist than, say, someone like Elliot Smith, Jeff Mangum, Bear Vs. Shark, or The Old 97s?

stupid_mcgee

"but if they [EA Mythic} didn't want to be compared [to WoW] they would have gone for an entirely different interface and art approach."

Okay, I can't comment on the interface, as I haven't played WAR, but the vast majority of MMOs have the nearly the exact same interface. The art style? Blizzard ripped that from Games Workshop way back with the first Warcraft game.

stupid_mcgee

@PearceShea: I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Warcraft was originally developed as a Warhammer game, and was then retooled after Workshop dropped out of the negotiations.

In which case, quit crying, because Workshop could've had Blizzard developing a very successful Warhammer IP all these years instead of Warcraft, and missed their chance.

Suzaku